reviewing every single SHADOWHUNTERS book

Sdílet
Vložit
  • čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
  • hi...I marathoned the entire shadowhunter chronicles in 2 months......so here's a review
    emmmabooks' SHADOWHUNTER ORDER VIDEO: • HOW TO READ THE SHADOW...
    I Finally Read 3 YA Staples • I finally read 3 YA st...
    TIMESTAMPS:
    Intro 0:00
    Guide to The Shadowhunters Chronicles - 1:05
    The Infernal Devices review - 8:06
    The Mortal Instruments review - 14:40
    Chain of Gold review - 34:45
    The Dark Artifices review - 38:40
    INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
    Mint Leaves & Mornings by Jeff Kaale
    • Mornings (feat. Pryces)
    • Mornings (feat. Pryces)
    LINKS:
    Goodreads: / mariame97
    Twitter: / firenatixn
    Instagram: / firenationscrolls
    Email: mariamandbooks@gmail.com

Komentáře • 98

  • @marrriam
    @marrriam  Před 4 lety +31

    Guide to The Shadowhunters Chronicles - 1:05
    The Infernal Devices review - 8:06
    The Mortal Instruments review - 14:40
    Chain of Gold review - 34:45
    The Dark Artifices review - 38:40
    *NOTE: I'm aware there's more books in TSC (short stories + red scrolls) but I binge read all of these books and needed a break, but wanted to get this video out so I didn't include them. Plus everything that happens in those are alluded to/described briefly in these main books, so! Will definitely be reading them in the future though.

  • @danwadey2969
    @danwadey2969 Před 4 lety +191

    **me pretending i do not see the incest**: wow city of glass is phenomenal. there is nothing wrong with it. i see absolutely nothing wrong here :)

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +25

      LMFAOOO honestly take it out and.... 5 stars, phenomenal, life changing

  • @ClockworkDevices
    @ClockworkDevices Před 4 lety +68

    the fact you sat down and reviewed all 13 books no one is doing it like you!!! I'm honestly so into shadowhunters content rn due to the tid show adaption news (which are yet to be confirmed sadly) and you dropped the video at the perfect time!!

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +3

      Velours Rouge HAHAHA OMG thank you!!! & yes I could not believe how relevant this video would be right now 💀 if the show is real I will die

  • @thisbe22
    @thisbe22 Před 4 lety +57

    Infernal Devices made up probably 99% of my preteen-hood and this video gives me LIFE

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +1

      Grace K. I wish I would have read it when it first came out! better late than never 😭

  • @littlepupper6034
    @littlepupper6034 Před 3 lety +38

    I read these books and enjoyed them but then I made the mistake of watching a lot of book reviews about the series and most of them were really negative. THANK YOU for making this video and sharing your genuine reviews about these books bc it's literally like watching my own actual reaction when I read these books for the first time. Really gave me back the positive outlook on all these books.
    Sincerely, a new subscriber :)). Love you💗

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety +3

      thank YOU for leaving this amazing comment!!!! I went into the series completely objectively and I’m not afraid to admit how good some of the books/elements of them are!!! so don’t feel bad about enjoying them lol! it’s all good fun 💛💛💛

  • @qualifiedarmchaircritic
    @qualifiedarmchaircritic Před 4 lety +61

    "I need *someone* to go to jail for this" I want this on a shirt

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +2

      LMFAOOOOO STILL AWAITING THE TRIAL

    • @youdontknowme55517
      @youdontknowme55517 Před 3 lety

      I want it 2 lol She's so funny! thanks for the review Mariam X.

  • @suzanneestep2464
    @suzanneestep2464 Před 3 lety +2

    Wow. you speak so well. The whole explanation of of these books was concise and thorough. I have been watching a lot of reviewers lately, (I am always looking for good books to read) and you are calm and have a good grasp of your subject. Awesome review.

  • @julietmcconkey444
    @julietmcconkey444 Před 4 lety +8

    Absolutely loved this video! The way you talk about all of the books is so sophisticated and interesting! I just finished a reread of all the shadowhunters books and relate so much to all of your thoughts (especially chain of gold, the characters were absolutely AMAZING) 😁😁

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      thank you, i’m so glad! 💛 & yes chain of gold was just so superior 😭

  • @darcysimp331
    @darcysimp331 Před 4 lety +14

    YES, FINALLY SOMETHING ABT THE CONCLUSION TO THE PARABATAI CURSE!!! Trying to finish qoaad was a struggle and I just never understood how neat and tidy they cleaned up the whole parabatai curse and how everyone just got over their centuries long stigma about romantic love between parabatai felt unrealistic and hard to believe. I remember reading CC's defense of it saying that it was bc Julian and Emma became god-like and angelic and the shadowhunters accepted it as sort of a divine thing???

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +6

      vale le i’ve never read her defense but that book, and how everything ended, was WEAK. way too convenient for me and i’m not even one to usually dislike convenience. it really just didn’t hit, very sad 🤧

    • @minahil8053
      @minahil8053 Před 2 lety +1

      I would’ve just killed Emma off at the end and CC should’ve shown Julian’s grief (I know he already goes through it once with Liv but I think it was stupid to excuse the parabatai curse for these two). I think Julian’s grief would’ve been so much more interesting to see because he loved her AND the pain of losing a parabatai.

  • @valroblesss
    @valroblesss Před 4 lety +10

    THIS VIDEO WAS SO GOOD!! even though I saw your reactions real time bc we buddy read them together this video was so insightful on your thoughts afterwards!! thank you for advocating for LOVE TRIANGLE RIGHTS LOL!! I love your content as always!! ❤💕

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +1

      move, i'm val I will ALWAYS advocate for love triangles lmfaoooo i’m so glad you enjoyed it, love u 🥺💓💓💓

  • @qualifiedarmchaircritic
    @qualifiedarmchaircritic Před 4 lety +1

    I wish I had found your channel sooner! This is so well-thought out. I never had interest in the CassClare universe, but I am a decades long fantasy reader, and I am definitely going to watch some more of your videos!

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      so glad you enjoyed!!!! 💛

  • @anjuma.x
    @anjuma.x Před 4 lety +1

    I enjoy your videos so much! It’s clear you put so much effort into this!! I’ve never read the shadow hunters chronicles but I did hear about it this month and was thinking maybe I should read it but I did not know where to start

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      Ismatarax thank you so much 💛 I hope this video helped you figure that out!!!

  • @kailiasage
    @kailiasage Před 4 lety +1

    I don’t even care about this series but I decided to give the video a chance and I loved it 😂 definitely glad this channel was recommended

  • @Blckthrn584
    @Blckthrn584 Před 3 lety

    I would want an updated video of this in the form of ranking in the future!.....I just love listening to you talk about shadoowhunters.

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety

      ahhh so happy to hear that ❤️ I’ll keep that idea in mind! 👀

  • @anon9069
    @anon9069 Před 3 lety

    i love this video so much, you really described everything perfectly. cant wait for more videos of you like this!

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety

      so happy you enjoyed it, thank you! 💛✨

  • @chelseahutchings5274
    @chelseahutchings5274 Před 3 lety +4

    tmi is probably my fav in this series but even I have to agree with your critiques, I appreciate you voicing your issues without any hate
    also I agree completely about chain of gold ahhh! I am already obsessed!! I am not ready for how attached I am going to be by the time the series ends

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety +1

      thank you sm!!! I definitely wanted to make it clear that I both enjoyed (most of) the books but could not ignore the things that were wrong lmao. and yes UGH truly obsessed with TLH already

  • @hedgyverona100
    @hedgyverona100 Před 3 lety +1

    I read the shadowhunter series in high school years ago but in GERMAN. I never read the original version so recently I decided to go for it and buy all the books in a set (never owned the copies bc school library) and I love rereading it. It lets you see everything in a completely different light. I know the plot already, I know who the characters really are and what they are capable off and watching Clary stumble through the first books is hilarious

  • @averagejoereads7271
    @averagejoereads7271 Před 4 lety

    This is iconic and I’m taking notes for when I eventually read Clockwork Princess and make my TID review 💙

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +1

      Average Joe Reads CANT WAIT 💛💛💛

  • @toshi-pe6qg
    @toshi-pe6qg Před 4 lety +3

    Ok, so now I’m reading shodowhunters instead of learning for my finals :x Great video, sent me right down the memory lane

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      Nihilistka lol omg pass your finals first! & thank you i’m glad 💛

  • @carolinapereira2849
    @carolinapereira2849 Před 4 lety +3

    Thank you for the video. I read the infernal devices and I look forward to read chain of gold. Someday I am going to read everything ahah

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +1

      Carolina Pereira thank YOU for watching! & I hope you enjoy them when you read them! 💛

  • @thebookishmel
    @thebookishmel Před 4 lety

    Mariam.... holy CRAP! i adore you.. wow. I do think that upon REREADING i would really like to go TID, TMI, TDA then Chain of Gold! i have to agree that TID character development is one of my favorites but although i haven't finished TDA, i think that it's going to be my FAVE of the millions of books in the series lol and i cannot believe you fr said AVENGERS WHO WITH COHF and how you described QOAAD because you're like one of the first who doesnt screeech about how great it is
    luv this luv u but whats new

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      thebookishmel -Melanie MELANIE AHHH IM SO GLAD U ENJOYED IT 💛 TDA had so much going for it but qoaad was just NOT doing it for me unfortunately. that might be because i’m reading it way after release without the hype 😭 LMAO COHF was what avengers endgame wishes it could’ve been 😂 love youuuu thanks for this comment 💛💛💛

  • @sunshine20yearsago51
    @sunshine20yearsago51 Před 4 lety +1

    You make me wanna read the book!!

  • @blank_line
    @blank_line Před rokem +1

    I didn't know that there were so many books, so I started with Lady midnight randomly. And I was so confused when they started talking about other characters and the great war or smth

  • @skinnyqueen5914
    @skinnyqueen5914 Před 3 lety +1

    im starting with the mortal instruments im on the second book… erm im uncomfy✨ was the bro sis needed? was it? WAS IT?

  • @Nat-hc7pu
    @Nat-hc7pu Před 3 lety +1

    "This video is going to be unnecessarily long" my favourite genre tbh

  • @parkereaston
    @parkereaston Před 3 lety

    City of glass I love it in in 4th grade reading these should I be able to read I'm on book 5

  • @ollieverse
    @ollieverse Před 4 lety

    I think I read TMI (w the Bane Chronicles in between, giving myself spoilers), then TDA, then TID, I finished Chain of Gold like a week ago and I've just started Tales of the Shadowhunter Academy. I didn't really pay attention to the order 🤷. Also I'm super excited for The Wicked Powers!

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      I wish I was as fearless as you 😂 no idea when I’ll be getting to the anthologies BUT I am also sooo excited for the rest of TLH and TWP!

  • @Frogloovveerr
    @Frogloovveerr Před rokem +1

    Fabulous video even tho I’m a few years late, I feel like I’m debating reading this series I just can’t get past the you know what uncomfortableness

  • @clairemitchell1029
    @clairemitchell1029 Před 3 lety +1

    i love all these seraes

  • @piecookies3488
    @piecookies3488 Před 4 lety +4

    Omg I read all 17 books in chronological order this past June. It was amazing and I have so regrets. I’m sad because I gotta wait for Chain of Iron. Shadowhunters is so fun and once you start reading you can’t stop until u finish the book. They make me so happy :D
    Omg I read all 17 books in chronological order this past June. It was amazing and I have so regrets. I’m sad because I gotta wait for Chain of Iron. Shadowhunters is so fun and once you start reading you can’t stop until u finish the book. They make me so happy :D
    Tear o meter
    Infernal Devices- 😭😭😭😭😭last 1/3 of CWP2 was pure tears. By the end I could produce anymore tears
    Mortal instruments- 😥no tears this time. I remember crying when Sebastian died when I read it in middleschool. It was because I was sad for Clary’s mom
    The Dark Artifices- 110% 😭😭😭😭tears for the BlackThorns.
    Lady midnight, I cried for Mark and the tragedy of the situation.
    Lord of Shadows, I cried throughout the book in random places because the BlackThorn tragedies that kept occurring made me upset. Then THE ENDING put me into a depression. Like I mourned in real life I put on white and sat in my room
    The Queen of Air and Darkness- for the first 1/5 of the book I was crying much harder than Clockwork princess but not as long.
    Chain of gold, 😭anytime Jem, Tessa, and Will interacted there were tears

  • @undadasea143
    @undadasea143 Před 3 lety

    In the mortal instruments series is there a good amount of 💕Malec💕 to survive?????? I still love the other aspects of shadowhunters though.

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety

      honestly, I’d say no unfortunately 🥴 they didn’t have many moments and weren’t as compelling (to me) as they once were. there are a ton of other lgbt+ ships in the other series that I loved though! namely the dark artifices & the last hours!

  • @arnabchatterjee6501
    @arnabchatterjee6501 Před 3 lety +1

    Fantasy is my favourite genre when it comes to anything. I loved shadowhunters. Personally for me it was the best book series. I saw the reviews and they were negative but I didn't let that change my perception of the books. The borderline incest was I'll agree not nice to read but I tried looking at it from their perspective and it wasn't as bad. Doesn't make it any less disgusting. But the books always had this air of surrealness so other than the incest, it was pretty much amazing to me.

  • @trevorgarey5646
    @trevorgarey5646 Před 3 lety

    Curious if you'll read the 3 short story collections as well as the two books in the Eldest Curses Trilogy that have been released?

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety

      yes, I definitely plan to! i’m slow to getting to them but definitely sometime this year.

  • @Buggybrainzzz
    @Buggybrainzzz Před 3 lety

    I personally realized i didnt like the mortal instruments series by halfway into the last book 😭 i got bored of it because the ending seemed to be easy to guess, so i asked my sister how it ended and i was right and it was SO disappointing. I dont remember a lot of it but i think it's because the lack of communication between the characters made up most of the conflicts. Its a common thing in teenaged audience books tbh. I do tease my older sister about the books but of course its totally fine that she likes them :)

  • @duck2322
    @duck2322 Před 4 lety +1

    The STAMINA you have to read all these books and then review them all,,,,,,,,,anyway I agree deeply with you on the stuff I've read (which is tmi, first two infernal devices, and lady of midnight) and I still can't believe we all let cassandra clare do that plotline HOW

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +1

      HAHAHAHA 💛 it took a month of not uploading to gain the energy 😂 & IDK WHY WE LET HER BUT WE NEED TO CIRCLE BACK BC... ELECTRIC CHAIR

  • @lancesmith7288
    @lancesmith7288 Před 3 lety

    I like the breakdown! My friend and I started reading all of her books in 5th grade which is now 9 years ago. We both call each other alec and Izzy. Are the books good now? Probably not but it was a formative part of my childhood and gained me a life long best friend.

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety

      TMI does not hold up for the most part in my opinion but the books in each series get better and better!

    • @channyt8818
      @channyt8818 Před 3 lety

      @@marrriam Glad to hear that! I was afraid that the books would suck, because some authors tend to be stretched too thin on their books, but I’m happy to hear that it’s improving. Maybe it’s just me, but I’ll enjoy a book series if there’s improvements or growth in the author and book, even if the first book suck.

  • @suhanipathak1689
    @suhanipathak1689 Před 3 lety

    Your reviews might as well be mine, except for the QoAD, where I would rate it 4/5...maybe? The Thule dimension might play a more important part in The Wicked Powers(or so I think). But all of your reviews so much matched mine that it's eerie. Also, I would love to see your reviews on Chain of Iron, now that it's out. I think that you did the most systematic and level head reviews of The Shadowhunter Chronicles that I've ever seen.

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 3 lety

      I appreciate that so much!!! I’m glad you enjoyed the video 😊
      As for Thule, I definitely understand that it’s going to be important in TWP, and it’s the thread that ties all of the series together. I just wish it didn’t tbh 😂 or rather, that it was executed a bit differently. my opinion tho! also, my most recent video is a reading vlog I did for chain of iron! i’ll also be discussing more in depth thoughts in a future video. 💛

  • @subhakhan1900
    @subhakhan1900 Před 4 lety

    Just found your channel! You're hilarious even though I haven't read any shadowhunters!

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      ahhh thank you lol & welcome!!!

  • @katekursive1370
    @katekursive1370 Před 3 měsíci

    I want an arc about Rafael, Max, Tavvy, and that generation 👀

  • @zarapillay2563
    @zarapillay2563 Před 4 lety +5

    I am on city of ashes, I started today and I am pg 100 butttt I still ship jace and clary :(

  • @chrislee6194
    @chrislee6194 Před rokem

    If you haven’t leaped into the Maasiverse I suggest getting into that now for the next set of maas reviews ;)

    • @chrislee6194
      @chrislee6194 Před rokem

      The Throne of Glass series
      A Court of Thornes and Roses series
      &
      Crescent City series
      If you want that feeling again for Fantasy, read these ASAP

  • @madielaineeeee
    @madielaineeeee Před 6 měsíci

    the mortal instruments is truly my guilty pleasure…

  • @wanna_fly_away_
    @wanna_fly_away_ Před rokem

    what's with the Bane Chronicles, tales from the Shadowhunter Academy, Ghosts of the Shadow Market and the Eldest Curses 🙃?

  • @darcysimp331
    @darcysimp331 Před 4 lety +1

    brb, going on to goodreds to change all my ratings for tmi onwards

  • @lunalunka99
    @lunalunka99 Před 21 dnem

    The Infernal Devices are the best books. I love the old story and the characters. I really liked Will. He is also sarcastic but very nice. He is my favorite Herondale. I thought that I would not like these books since it was a long time ago. But I love it. 💙🖤⚔️➰🥰

  • @0okuzukirio0
    @0okuzukirio0 Před 2 lety

    I tried to read city of Bones in 2022 as it was recommended to be an entry into the whole thing. I hate it with a passion because i dislike Clary as a character and since Jace character is not impactful, I don't like him either....
    I don't care too much about the writing (after half a year of reading MTL novel, you care less about these things). But i do care if the characters are well developed.
    My question is Can I drop Mortal Instruments and still able to understand stuff later?

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 2 lety

      hi! you can definitely just go read a summary of the mortal instruments books online, on the fan wikipedia etc. your reading experience of the infernal devices and last hours series will not be affected because they're set before those books. you would be confused about the dark artifices though, if you went in knowing nothing.

  • @marleymarss
    @marleymarss Před 3 lety +2

    The thing with Emma and Julian. So...Emma and Julian knew each other for a long time (hence having history) and even before she went to live with his family, Blackthorn. Then something happens to her parents and she starts to live with Julian and his siblings. So in a way, the Blackthorn family adopts her into the family and Emma views and thinks the Blackthorn siblings as her siblings throughout these years. Okay. But for some reason, she doesn't see nor view Julian as her adoptive brother? So technically yeah they're not brother and sister by blood, but the fact she was adopted into the family, grow up in the same household, and then they engage in a romantic relationship. Yeah...sorry, that just feels incesty to me. I say this cause honestly, if you were adopted into a family (even yeah you knew him before joining in the family), will you be willing to have a romantic relationship with your adoptive brother? No you wouldn't, it will be gross and you'll view him as your sibling either way. More so it's a very grey area to me between the Emma and Julian relationship. So this whole forbidden love thing Cassandra is trying to display, still feels incesty with those characters.

    • @arnabchatterjee6501
      @arnabchatterjee6501 Před 3 lety +4

      I think Emma never viewed Julian as a brother but more as an equal half. They always looked at each other as friends not siblings. So it wasn't weird for me. Julian and Emma were like two halves of one soul you could say. They had a sort of emotional connection that surpassed everything else. So this isn't incest like. Jace and Clary kissing when they thought they were siblings...that is incest like.

    • @marleymarss
      @marleymarss Před 3 lety

      @@arnabchatterjee6501 From her perspective, she wouldn't think different. I guess what I'm coming from is when you're adopted into the family and you grew up with them, you'll see them as family and not pursing any romantic interests to them. Yes, it is not incest, but it may come across or look incesty from outsider's perspectives. It's a grey area. And I guess I'm just confuse as to why Emma sees Julian's siblings as becoming her siblings as well, but doesn't see Julian as another adoptive sibling? Emotional connection? I didn't see that way, but I guess so from Emma's perspective, probably yeah.

  • @ollieverse
    @ollieverse Před 4 lety +2

    I love that there are no dislikes

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      omg I didn’t realize.... maybe I made some points

  • @casharieclaire
    @casharieclaire Před 2 lety

    thankyou❤️🙌

  • @reinhardtasis5272
    @reinhardtasis5272 Před 4 lety

    Please please review all Anthologies....and red scrolls too....please...I could watch u talk about these all day!

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety

      I definitely will be doing that in the (hopefully near) future! I'm glad you enjoyed the video

  • @hanna3685
    @hanna3685 Před rokem +1

    honestly i read all of mortal instruments over the span of 7 years and the infernal devices (which also was my favourite) and then started the dark artifices last year and like man i feel like even if you read mortal instruments that story/series is so whack and confusing hahaha

  • @labwachowdhury7310
    @labwachowdhury7310 Před rokem +2

    Infernal Devices completely ruined me

  • @_ayams
    @_ayams Před 2 lety

    i can't get through city of fallen angels pls send help

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 2 lety

      it’s SO BAD…… the next two way better tho

  • @horsedreamer23138
    @horsedreamer23138 Před 3 lety +3

    For me personally the infernal devices books weren’t horrible but I don’t like the TMI series for many reasons. 1 Incest ( I still don’t get why they trusted Valentine’s word on this. Like why didn’t they get a dna test done to be sure since it’s modern day New York?) 2 Clary is unrealistically good at fighting for a teenage girl who has never been drawn to it or had any experience 3 Sebastian and Jace are too similar. Only difference seems to be one is good and one is evil 4Way too many love triangles 5 The plot in the first three books are the same as the last three just switched around. (TMI part 1: Valentine wants to create a new race of angels with angel blood. TMI part 2: Jonathan wants to create a new race of demons with demon blood) 6 One of the themes seems to be anti racism but the shadow hunters themselves use the term mundane as a racial slur and seem to think they are better than them 7 Looks seemed to matter too much to the characters ( too much dialogue about each other’s looks) I loved these books as a kid, but now that I’m an adult I see a lot of flaws in them. Not attacking anyone. This is just my personal opinion about the TMI series.❤️❤️

    • @sahildahal5523
      @sahildahal5523 Před 3 lety

      Same!! I hate the tmi because of all of this. Also, the plagiarising allegations by Cassandra Clare really drove the nail.

    • @jaymeegrayson4662
      @jaymeegrayson4662 Před 7 měsíci

      I think you didn't read the book to know any of the reasons for each of those things 💀💀💀 (almost)

  • @naveen.s1560
    @naveen.s1560 Před 3 lety +1

    I don't know, why you didn't like "The Mortal Instruments" as much as "Infernal Devices"..........I personally loved "The Mortal Instruments" because of the badass villains in particular. None of the other Cassie's series has a great villain like "Valentine and Sebastian" , though I wish Cassie could've given Valentine a much better ending......

  • @arcadianrhythm3514
    @arcadianrhythm3514 Před 4 lety +8

    I love your channel but I have zero interest in this series as a whole. Still gonna watch this entire video though. 😂

    • @marrriam
      @marrriam  Před 4 lety +1

      LMFAOOOOO understandable and I take this as a compliment 😂

    • @starblack9374
      @starblack9374 Před 3 lety +2

      Thuretin You need to watch the show then it will make you read the books

  • @lillipflugfelder656
    @lillipflugfelder656 Před 3 lety +2

    i would kiss my brother too if my life depended on it...