The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time's dungeon design | Boss Keys
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2016
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I continue my exploration of The Legend of Zelda's dungeon design, with Link's 3D debut, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BF1/ - Hry
When this game came out, I had people calling me all the time for over-the-phone help with the water temple. I'm not sure how I became the expert, nor how people knew to call me. It was often people I didn't really even know that well from school haha. The first few times I had to turn the game on and go through it with them, after a while I knew it all by heart. Haha. It was my 15 minutes of fame. I would love to see more complicated Zelda dungeons like this again. It was amazing. :)
We have the Internet now though. Nobody would call you nowadays ;)
I made some money in middle school writing walkthroughs for the game when people at school asked.
I personally think Ocarina is a pretty weak Zelda game compared to fantastic ones like Link to The Past and Breath of the Wild, but that right there is something that transcends game quality. A unique, but also shared childhood gaming experience. There really was a sense of wonder playing games as a kid. I get the same way playing vr games nowadays which makes me think a big part of the wonder is the sense of being on the forefront of whats technologically possible. Its almost like a exploring new dimension.
I replayed this a couple years ago when the DS version came out and I had to Google how to beat it. The only place i couldnt find was the hole when the water rises in the center tower. It doesn't help that you can softlock your game if you open the wrong door at the wrong time.
Grey Bayles BotW is pretty weak in dungeons lol
"Zelda fans had to wait a long time after Link's Awakening for their next fix."
Nah man, those Phillips CD-i games were the shit.
"That old Ganon's no match for The King!"
yeah, they were fucking shit.
We don't talk about those games.
"Great! I can't wait to bomb some Dodongos!"
DrearierSpider1 💙💙💙
I can't help but wonder whether the linearity of OOT's dungeons was a conscious design decision to accommodate for an audience not used to puzzle-solving in a 3D space. Unlike the 2D games, you can't just follow a wall round if you get lost and all the entrances and exits to a room are not visible at all times. It also becomes much more difficult to recall a route between two places in the dungeon. Giving players access to only one locked door at a time is exactly what I would do to limit the amount of remembering an inexperienced player has to perform.
I think it more has to do with the Zelda games going more and more in the direction of hand-holding, not exploring. OoT was very strict with the Owl as well.
Of course, the 3D space being scary and new for console gamers at the time may have added to this. Nintendo really may have started the whole handholdy approach because of that.
A really good observation overall. It may have its roots in a sensible design decision.
I found the puzzles, and navigating the dungeons, much more difficult than LttP, and a lot of subsequent 3D Zelda games actually.
Yeah, I thnk it probably is a lot to do with the fact that it was such an early 3d game. The extensive tutorials and more stripped-back level design is kind of what you expect for early 3d. A lot of other games made similar concessions when moving to 3d - the very little remembered Mega Man Legends comes to mind, which is just... corridors. And ofc Donkey Kong 64, Castlevania 64, etc, which were rubbish. All things considered Zelda faired pretty well in the initial jump, although I think they really 'got' it in Majora's Mask. Mario is kind of the exception, with Mario 64 being the most complicated in the whole series.
@aboriginal truthteller oh gosh dont take it to heart! I think she's right honestly. Hand-holding is the right word to describe a lot of the design choices in later Zelda games. The ways they tried to make the games easier over time - the Owl, the fairies, the extensive tutorials, etc - really were bad decisions, and I think there are a lot of places they made the games a bit too pedestrian. In the first Zelda game they didn't mark where bombable walls were, essential items were hidden in secret chambers, there was no map, etc. When you look at the trajectory of the design there is definitely a trend towards first-glance readability. I think it really hurt the games honestly. Although I DO enjoy getting lost for weeks in Zelda 1, lol, its one of my favourite games. But through the close-reading of the gameworld and testing of every available option I think it came alive as a game much better than any of its sequels. And I think it's a good thing when a game requires you to be *good* at the game in oder to beat it. That being said I think Majora's Mask and Windwaker have a nice balance between the easy legibility (ie. you're never going to be unsure of what to do) and making a cohesive and interesting world you have to explore to advance (the day cycles in MM, making a map in WW, etc.)
+Fen Y Suppose you're right. But that raises another question: when did handholding begin, and why? At what point did gamemakers think more help was better than less help? And why did *everyone* seem to start doing it all at once?
You making all those dungeon breakdown images and animations yourself?? that's a lot of work... great video.
Thanks! They're based on the original mini-maps from the game. But, yeah, the Water Temple one was a right pain in the gorons.
Mark is getting 'super cheeky'.
Almost as cheeky as those Gorons
Not as cheeky as that key hiding under a platform in the water temple
I realize that this video is a year old, but I wanted to offer a potential reason for why linearity may not be a bad thing for the Shadow Temple in particular, and that revolves around its theme. After the first three dungeons, which all had connections to the previous Child Link dungeons, your next destination happens to be the graveyard behind Kakariko, the village that was often treated as a "safe space" of sorts by the game. The Shadow Temple contrasts this by its dark themes, shared with the Bottom of the Well. Both dungeons are haunted areas with unsettling imagery, and the Shadow Temple, I feel, is able to get away with linearity by being a constant descent into further unsettling locations. The player, if they were paying attention, knows that Bongo-Bongo escaped the well and fled to the Shadow Temple, and after seeing the pool of acid with the hands of corpses reaching out, the torture devices, etc., should lead them to question and fear what's potentially coming up. If the dungeon were as open as, say, the Water Temple, the feeling of consistently descending into a place you shouldn't be has the potential to be lost if players felt the need to constantly backtrack for a missing key.
Non-linearity =/= Quality. Linearity and non-linearity both have their strengths and weaknesses; neither option when designing a game is inherently superior.
This. Temple of Time is an amazing dungeon and it’s completely linear. He also compares fortress of winds with palace of winds in minish cap, with fortress of winds being talked about much more favorably due to how many ways you unlock it’s doors and access rooms, but I find it incredibly boring compared to Palace of winds. Overall design, progressively building upon puzzle motifs, and the individual puzzle, and combat challenges are far more important than the structure.
Non linear levels are also much easier to navigate in 2D games.
Yeah this guy acts like linear design is bad its good when done right and its just a different style
Yes, I so agree with this. I find that I can like both ways depending on how it's done.
@@MrMerryFISTmas one thing i have noticed about palace of winds is that it has a lot of platforming. that being said though, oot master quest has made some dungeons less linear while the water temple is more linear. the temple of time is a bit too long, however, the second half is pretty innovative. the first part has generic puzzles but there are some cool moments. linear dungeons are not bad, but the problem is when they are used all the time especially in dungeons that would work better if they were non-linear such as snowpeak ruins which has missed potential because yetta holds your hand at the start while the cannon puzzles are very straightforward. if the dungeon was non-linear then the puzzles could be on par if not possible more complex than eagle's tower in LA. hyrule castle tower is a linear dungeon that works because it is a a pure gauntlet while tower of hera is also a tower dungeon. mark brown also mentioned he did not hate the temple of time in his twilight princess video.of all the dungeon puzzles it might be the most creative.
the best approach is to have some dungeons linear, some non-linear, and some in between. MM also has some pretty linear dungeons but GBT works because of its circular puzzle while stone tower temple would have been better if it was non-linear based on its gimmick more, but is still a better dungeon than the shadow temple and spirit temple. i argue even arbiters grounds is better than the last two temples in OoT as well.
I'm admittedly a little disappointed with the assumption that linearity is intrinsically a bad design aesthetic. It may remove choice with regards to how the player can progress, but it _also_ guides the player down the critical path more effectively, which keeps them from getting lost. In this, Zelda's first foray into 3D and many players' first 3D game, reducing the choices a player can make allows for more tightly-designed dungeon pacing and cuts out a lot of wasted effort running between rooms you've already visited because you can't figure out how you're supposed to progress (traversal, I should note, takes significantly longer across 3D space than 2D space, because of the additional axis). It's just a different aesthetic, and one that I think was the right choice for this game in particular. Disappointed that it was written off as bad without further exploring how it influences player experience.
+TheAlmightyGoomba You do realize that openness and linearity aren't mutually exclusive right? The overwhelming majority of Zelda games are based on a linear core in that there are a predetermined series of checkpoints that must be fulfilled in a predetermined order, that didn't hinder exploration in a game like Wind Waker.
Space is not the only thing that can be explored in a game, nor is it the most important. Zelda offers the player numerous ways to experiment with the mechanics at your disposal to approach gameplay challenges in different ways. Exploring the gameplay systems, rather than exploring space, is far closer to the core of what Zelda is.
" tightly-designed dungeon pacing and cuts out a lot of wasted effort running between rooms you've already visited"
Except water temple.
Goddam water temple
I think there is room for both linear and alinear designs. I'm curious how BotW will feel to play, being, at least from what I can tell, a super strong reversal and return to the alinearity of the first two game titles, albeit much more user-friendly.
It's very true though that OoT, being the first 3D Zelda game, needed extra care for making things accessible, more so than the earlier games had to. (Though that trend seems to be stopping only _now_ with BotW, as far as I can tell)
*****
That's another point that I think this video didn't really address. Perhaps one of the reasons the water temple is so widely disliked is, beyond the tedium of taking on and off the iron boots, how much time is spent wandering and not really accomplishing anything. The whole thing is one continuous puzzle, that much is true, but it's a puzzle where most of the pieces are obscured from the player and attempts at solutions don't have immediate feedback. I found this resulted in a lot of trial and error and backtracking, which exacerbated the clunky switching between boots problem. I still think it's well-designed, but of all the dungeons in Ocarina, I don't think it gels with the mechanical systems of the game as well as the majority of the others.
You might say that the problem with the water temple is that it's too dry ayyyyyyyyyyyyy.
Interesting that you find the linearity a flaw for the dungeons, as I enjoy that a lot more than randomly stumbling upon keys to use in any order you like. I enjoy the fact that this allows Ocarina of Time to have more concise puzzles that you must complete before moving on. This allows the overworld, for me, to be all about exploration and moving as I see fit between side-quests and the main-quest, and dungeons to be a puzzle solving gauntlet where I get to explore, discover, complete, and then move on.
I can understand how this could be a flaw for others, but I just wanted to throw my two cents at the wall as to why I loved it!
It is interesting how 'linearity' is often automatically negative in modern game design discussion. Personally I agree with you. The non linearity of LTTP and Awakening leads to a lot of back tracking, which gets boring pretty quickly. By focusing more on the puzzles I end up having more fun and feeling like there's meaningful progress, like with OoT.
That's what I want to know. When did 'linear' become a dirty word.
Honestly that's why I like Zelda OOT. Actually OOT tried non-linear dungeons to get the Ice Arrow, and you know what happened? You never got the Ice arrow if you spent keys on the wrong doors-
Also, linearity is more welcoming. I played OoT as 5 year old, and could enjoy (most) of the dungeons because they weren't convoluted mazes full of dead ends and back tracking.
Thanks for saying this, cuz in all my years I never even thought about the order of keys or some lunacy like that. It's good fun the way it is.
Hey! Thanks for the comments. Some quick thoughts on why I value non-linearity in the dungeons.
The Zelda series has a weird relationship with linearity. From the free-roaming thrills of Zelda 1 to the heavily prescribed march of Skyward Sword, the series has slowly lost its grip on true exploration. You can no longer do dungeons out of order, the overworld is carved up into neat chunks, and cool areas are blocked off until critical story beats are hit.
And that's not a terrible thing. Some play Zelda for the epic adventure story, and Ocarina of Time definitely delivers on that.
But, for me, the dungeons have traditionally held onto that sense of freedom and player choice - just, in miniature. Maybe you don't always notice it, but I think that when you are given true choice in how you proceed through a dungeon you feel like an actual adventurer, slowly unlocking the mystery of a temple, rather than a video game player moving from point to point in a predesigned level.
It's not the only thing I value in a Zelda dungeon. I really dig the dungeon-wide puzzles like the Water Temple's water levels. And, you're all right of course, that nine Water Temples would make Ocarina a right slog. Variety is good, and dungeons can provide more than just navigational puzzles.
The Shadow Temple, for example, is creepy as hell. The Spirit Temple is a brutal fight. The Fire Temple is imposing and wraps around in a brilliant way.
But every game does linear levels. Zelda, for me, shines best when it lets you make decisions, get lost, and find your way.
Anyway. My thoughts and feelings are subject to change as I go along. While I've finished every Zelda game, doing these videos (which, as a reminder, are basically just my research notes as I figure out how Zelda dungeons are made) is helping me understand what really makes a dungeon tick. So we'll see how things stand by the time I get to A Link Between Worlds.
Could you tell us your opinions on the ice arrow dungeon and or ganon's tower in the comments I was really hoping to get your opinions on them but they were sadly absent from the video I believe them both to be pretty interesting dungeons compared to the rest
+Shade I didn't actually get the Ice Arrows on this playthrough - trying to focus on the main dungeons, so didn't mention the Bottom of the Well or the Ice Cavern, either.
As for Ganon's Tower: it is a cool dungeon that caps off the game nicely, bringing together all the dungeons in the game for one final greatest hits. And I like how you can tackle it in your own order.
+Mark Brown (Game Maker's Toolkit) ok I was just wondering because the ice arrow dungeon has an interesting design because it's a key hunt with a locked door maze at the end
I like your analysis a lot (here and in your other vids!), but I think you may be imposing a certain view of the series on OoT that doesn't account for why these dungeons work so well. If you ask me, OoT's main success is in telling a story through gameplay. You start as a kid and become an adult, not just through a series of arbitrary trials, but by mastering every element through its respective dungeon, which offers a different sort of challenge. I mean, the shadow temple is so creepy that when I was a kid I had to get my friends to play it for me. It's a lot like conquering the different themed gyms in Pokemon to become a master- I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the idea came from within Nintendo. You mention that the dungeons all have distinct feels to them, but you gloss over the specifics and what that does for the game's narrative. In other words, just because a dungeon is fairly linear (and I think you might be selling these dungeons a little short, as at that early stage of 3D what felt linear is a lot different than what feels linear now- the forest temple, for example, still doesn't feel linear to me) doesn't mean it doesn't make the player feel involved in a compelling and unforgettable narrative. IMO, that gameplay narrative is where the 3D Zelda titles really shine, and I think it would be a shame if you didn't appreciate that as you go on to analyze them.
Anyways- I say all that because your channel rules- there needs to be more in depth analysis of video games like this out there!
While certainly part of "true exploration" is in being able to access new areas, I feel like that's the only way in which exploration has been truncated. Exploration, really, has little to do with blowing up walls or opening chests, but it's rather a feeling you get of stumbling across *anything* off the beaten path. From a piece of heart to a scenic vista. That's exploration, and that, I feel, hasn't really gone away. You are still free to poke around and find nooks and crannies, and many of those nooks and crannies still provide some sort of pay off, even if very few of them open up. And yet, that opening up isn't exactly something standard to the Zelda series. It happened in the first game and A Link to the Past, but you didn't really get that in either Zelda 2 or Link's Awakening. In Zelda 2, there were no nooks or crannies to poke at, it was just more of a large field. In Link's Awakening, you were fairly restricted in where you could go based on what you had, and while the world didn't look chunked off, it certainly ended up being that way.
Thus, while non-linearity is certainly nice, I don't think it's nearly as important as you make it out to be. In a way, it's not the actual choice that makes people feel adventurous, but rather its illusion. By navigating through twists and turns of complex level geometry, they feel like true adventurers, which is why something like Level 6 in the original Zelda falls somewhat flat, while the Fire Temple works quite well.
You gotta remember that OoT was the first 3D iteration and a lot of the design knowledge and language to create interesting dungeons was just being created. Link to the Past and Link's Awakening benefited greatly from knowledge and mistakes learned from previous 2D iterations. OoT wasn't a complete blank canvas like OG NES Legend of Zelda, but there was still a lot of gameplay frontier that needed to be tackled head on in order to learn how to handle new 3D space.
Part of me wants a video on Master Quest, if only because I'd like to hear an analytical viewpoint on why the switches in Jabu-Jabu's Belly are cows.
What?
@@Boooo Jabu Jabu's Belly legit has cows in it in the Master Quest version.
"Pain in the Gorons."
Gorons = Rocks.
Rocks = Gems.
Gems = Jewels.
Jewels = Family Jewels.
Family Jewels = Your nuts.
That's clever pun design. I'm a Random CZcams Comment, and this is Pun Maker's Toolkit.
Nice
Nice
Nice
Nice
Nice
The main problem i had with the Water Temple was that, yes, it was non-linear, it was the most confusing kind of non-linear. It demanded exploration, yes, but it never rewarded it much. The most you got out of a room was a small key that you didn't know where to use, and the only time I really felt that it was more than just backtracking was when you fought against Shadow Link. Honestly, the dungeon was just boring most of the time, and often required a bit of stumbling about to get anywhere.
Zelda fans like you are why we got so many crappy dungeons in Wind Waker and subsequent games.
The funny thing about the water temple is how linear it is. It only gets that feeling of being overwhelmingly branching because you have to keep going back to the center room to open the next locked door to move forward. And also due to so many people missing the room under the rising platform and running in circles trying to find that one key.
Yes because of this it's non linear
Except that's not linear, buddy.
"There are only two dungeons which have any sense of nonlinearity when it comes to keys: the Forest Temple and the Water Temple."
uhhhhhhhhhh
the Gerudo Training Grounds are so nonlinear you don't even have to use all the keys
hard to miss that one
Man, it's been so many years I forgot the Training Grounds even existed lol
If the ideal Zelda dungeon is one that gives the player freedom to make choices, then Zelda II takes the cake. The option to spend your limited magic meter to forgo the key and slip through a locked door as a fairy is a brilliant turn that has never been revisited. True story: the second-to-last dungeon has no keys because you're expected to get a master key that unlocks every door before entering it. My first time through the game, I never found that key and completed that dungeon with meticulous magic conservation. That kind of dungeon exploration freedom is unheard of anywhere else in the series.
That is badass.
I forgot there was a master key in Zelda II, or if I even picked it up at all.
+
Heh, I had to resort to this strategy as well. Pretty brutal, that.
Zelda II is wildly underrated, but in level of difficulty is one of the hardest videogames I've ever played (as for Zeldas I have only played, I, II, alttp, la, oot)
Holy crap! I didn’t realise this was possible. And I love ZII!
I guess you could say that this series is 'boss'. IN ALL SERIOUSNESS THIS SERIES IS GREAT
The biggest pain in the ass of the water temple was the boot swapping, other than that I thought it was a neat dungeon.
I'm glad to see someone appreciates the Water Temple. I always loved it as a kid and was surprised to find out that it was despised.
It's hard to put it into words but it seems like every single time I replay it I'm surprised by how expansive it is
7:30 FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT.
For a long time I thought I was the only one who liked the water temple. Glad to see someone else can appreciate it.
I was hoping that you would talk about the dungeon to get the ice arrow
Just played the Water Temple today, actually!
I kinda wanted you to mention how amazing the miniboss is, the whole layout and presentation of the room and the tree and how your reflection disappears, etc... But I get that you're taking a more analytical approach here about the layout itself.
Very very well done! This is a great spinoff series.
I don't necessarily see why linearity is a problem. I mean sure it's cool you can do things in whatever order you want but I don't mind following the developer's path either.
I think, like in A Link to the Past, it's best to have a mix of both linear and non-linear.
It depends on the player. If you want to explore things and figure it out, non-linear trumps linear. If you want to enjoy the experience overall, linear can trump non-linear.
+Fen Y You do realize that openness and linearity aren't mutually exclusive and linearity doesn't take away "figuring things out" right?
There's a difference between openness and nonlinearity. I feel like that's a mistake a lot of people make. A nonlinear dungeon is not like an open world game. It just allows the player to make choices, but still always guides them ever so subtly towards the end with things like dungeon items and key placements. You can never get truly lost, and probably honestly won't if the dungeon's well-made. A linear dungeon, you could break down into two categories-- obfuscated linearity, and just regular old garden-variety linearity. A truly linear dungeon is the revisit to hyrule castle in Link to the Past. It's a straight line, with a key and a locked door in each room, and you just solve the puzzle and go. I'd categorize the Forest Temple, meanwhile, as more of obfuscated linearity. It feels like you're exploring, but the reality is, you have to go to all of the locations where there are keys, and then go to all the locations where there are locks. Your route could and will be more or less the same each time.
The problem I have is that exploring a nonlinear dungeon feels more organic, while exploring a linear dungeon does not. It's cool to have linear dungeons like the hyrule castle revisit as a change of pace from the puzzle solving and exploration, but I don't think it should be the norm at all... because that Forest Temple example I gave? It's basically the reason I gave up on Ocarina of Time. I got stuck because I didn't find all the keys the devs expected me to, and figured that because I had made progress, there must be a key somewhere nearby. Turns out, there were keys from long ago that I just missed. It interrupted the experience and forced me to retread old ground, because the developers said "No, you did it wrong." Not because I stumbled into a dead end but at least found a key. I just hit an arbitrary roadblock.
So, that's my take on the whole thing. Nonlinear dungeons just feel more organic than a dungeon where you try to hide the linearity behind smoke and mirrors and game design tricks, because you can always be making progress on many different fronts. Opening a locked door, I always feel, will get me somewhere.
+Matthew Etter
You do realize that, indeed, my very opinion is that openness and linerarity are mutually opposed, and that linearity takes away any fun in figuring things out.
It has a reason that difficult puzzle games are usually non-linear, while easy ones are linear. The non-linearity is one of the most fun parts of these games.
But then, this is Zelda, where "okay, let's find the eye on the wall to open the door" counts as a puzzle, so I suppose I just expect a bit more than that.
I think you could have done a better job explaining why Ocarina's linearity in it's dungeons is a flaw in it's design. You didn't really elaborate on it, so it kinda sounds like you simply don't think linearity can be good for Zelda in any way shape or form.
+01ChaosWarrior That's fair enough - I'll touch on it in future episodes
+01ChaosWarrior That's fair enough - I'll touch on it in future episodes
I thought you did a great job explaining why the linearity hindered the game; the choices (or lack thereof) weren't exciting. Zelda is a series about puzzling solving, yeah, but primarily adventure. With few real choices in the dungeon design, it feels more like "OK, I've gotta do this thing" rather than "Oh wow, I can do whatever I want right now"
***** The thing is that neither that video or this one really show ways in which linearity hurts the game, only that it exists. It's similar to many complaints about Final Fantasy XIII, where people will criticize the game for it's chosen structure, but won't actually try to see what the pros and cons of the structure are for that game in particular. Egoraptor didn't even really make as much of an argument as Mark has, at least Mark is making direct comparison to both games that directly preceded Ocarina, Egoraptor jumped all around the franchise and didn't really make any real observation aside from "I can't do whatever I want, and I think that it makes this game bad."
***** I agree with that, Ocarina is really simple, though to be fair a large part of it's simplicity is because it was trying to make sure 3D adventure games would work. Later Zelda games would take it farther, simply because they didn't have to spend one or two dungeons trying to make players understand the concept of 3D gaming. (It's one of the reasons I love Twilight Princess. It's more complex in what it tries to do)
The Oracle games are after Majora, right? Those are my favorite, and I'm super excited to hear your thoughts on them.
+Danielle Anderson Correct!
+Mark Brown (Game Maker's Toolkit) When are we gonna see Minish Cap? That game is usually forgotten amongst Zelda games and IMO it follows unique patterns with the ability to shrink/grow at any time.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeees! I still remember the final dungeon on oracle of ages and that boss fight. And that floor puzzle that requires the use of the cane of samoria!!! Devious
Honestly it just always makes me happy to find someone else who appreciates the Water Temple! I never really found it to be confusing, but interesting and engaging. I don't mind the more linear ones either, though. The mix of some linear and some non-linear makes for the best combo, I think. Anyway, stumbled upon your channel, and I've been enjoying random videos - looking forward to finishing off this Boss Keys mini series.
most of alttp's dungeons have a combination of linear and non linear sections.
Hi, I'm halfway through your Boss Keys videos. It looks like your playlist starts with the newest video, which causes the end of each one to point to the video previously watched. It may make things easier to understand if you reverse the order of your Boss Keys playlist. Thanks. I love these videos! As a new D&D DM it is helping me homebrew my own dungeons.
alright, good idea
that's a problem I find with a lot of playlists all over youtube.
Very interesting observations, perhaps as a bonus sometimes it would be interesting to see your thoughts on the Master Quest version of these dungeons.
I'll maybe do it if you all still care by the time I finish the main games!
Still willing to do it? I haven't played it yet, but if you do I will ;)
Ye
I think the water temple is a great dungeon concept, but isn't very well executed, as the locations of the keys are very obscure compared with every other dungeon in the game. Also I didn't like how the dungeon item was the longshot, it didn't feel like you gained anything when you got it
Thanks a ton for all your videos! I've been an avid gamer since I first played A Link to the Past, but I never thought too much about game design beyond the artwork and narrative storytelling. Your videos have really got me interested in trying my hand at game design, especially the boss keys videos about dungeon design and the parts of the doom video where you talk about how the different enemy behaviors influence gameplay. At the moment I'm cutting my teeth on Doom's Snapmap, using lessons I'm learning from your videos while learning how I can push a simple engine using limited scripting and assets. After I feel comfortable, I'm going to take a stab at making a small 5 level game in the unreal engine and see where I can take my newfound hobbies from there. Thanks again for the videos, and sharing your knowledge. If I ever get that game done, I'll be sure to send you a link.
+Michael Moore Sounds cool, good luck!
Thanks!
Is the linearity of the dungeons really a bad thing? I mean mostly when people praise non-linear games they are arguing for some form of empowered choice, but in this case you have no intelligent guess how one locked door might be different from another locked door.
When I was a kid I have a vivid memory of quitting LW altogether more than once because I felt like I'd used a key at the wrong time and couldnt find the next. In retrospect I think it more likely I would have found the key eventually, and that nintendo was smarter than my tiny child brain. However the fact I thought that shows that this type of frustration is possible or even likely. All nintendo traded in for their neat linear dungeons in OoT was a type of empowered choice which wasn't empowered at all.
when you have the compass and map you can see what's beyond the doors.
Considering their length and that you don't generally have a good overview of each room I would say no, though on a related note it was a bit annoying in the forest temple how I'd find a key, go unlock a door and then soon have to backtrack for the next one several times instead of finding them near the next door.
True, but I think in most Zelda games, I just go from one room to the next without thinking and hardly ever look at the map unless I get stuck (which is not often).
I really think it's mainly about thinking that a dungeon is non-linear rather then it actually being non-linear. When a dungeon looks non-linear, then the player will feel very smart when he figures out a path. While it may have been the only possible path. I really think that this gives a lot more satisfaction then what would be possible with a linear dungeon.
Oli414 Yeah I agree, it feels more like you're exploring a place rather than navigating through a set of challenges.
To counter your defense of the water temple, yes, I am totally on board with the idea of dungeon-wide puzzle mechanics like the changing water level, but the Water Temple executed this concept very poorly, primarily because if you want to set the water level to, for example, floor 3, you only have one location to do this and that location requires a lot of backtracking. So you figured out in your head how to solve a certain puzzle in a certain room, but that solution requires changing the water level, you'd be spending a long time wandering through the dungeon trying to complete this one puzzle that, in your head, you'd already solved.
Compare this to the red and blue pop-up blocks (or whatever they're called) from A Link to the Past. This was a dungeon-wide puzzle mechanic, but the orbs you had to hit to change them were scattered all over the place, so you still needed knowledge of how the dungeon fit together, but without needing to travel to the opposite end of the dungeon to solve a specific puzzle in a specific room.
Absolutely this. The Water Temple punishes you so badly for mistakes like nowhere else in the series, and that's what grinds you down mentally.
I would like to add that, if you miss that bomb-able wall, you'll be lost for a long time. I was looking the other way when going up that shaft, and I spent the next hour or so trying to find a path. The moment I noticed it I knew what to do, but damn it took a long time to even end up backtracking through there.
Spacial awareness anyone? Lol
Vokkan no it does not. Only if you're a moron. I had zero problems. ZERO. I even solved it twice without nothing it!
I agree. The water temple punishes exploration. You jumped off the platform into the water? Oh, bad luck, you weren't supposed to do that right now. Have fun for the next 10 minutes backtracking through the entire dungeon and changing the water level 3 times just to get back on the platform.
I'm excited for the next episode. MM is by far my favorite Zelda game from a gameplay standpoint, and my second favorite, thematically. I think they handled that game extremely well and can't wait to see what you think of the level design.
You like having a universal time limit? Resetting your items and rupees? Majora's Mask is fine, but I wouldn't want them to make another one with those elements.
+Clayton Grange Yes.
Clayton Grange I don't think they need to make another one, no. I'd rather they do something different that other Zeldas haven't before and Breath of the Wild looks REALLY good. However, I find the time limit tends to split people into two camps: the "it's inconvenient" camp and the "it boosts the tension and atmosphere" camp. I'd be in the latter.
Overall, I just think Majora's Mask was the first Zelda game I played that really felt alive. In OoT, I had no real reason to care about much of anyone in that game. Link was more or less just doing what he was told, which could work from a growing-up theme, but Majora's Mask wasn't planned at the time and we know that most of the characters had a lot of their content removed due to the N64's limitations. Meanwhile, in MM, I felt like the people around me were really panicking, in fear, angry, in denial, or in mourning. Each character had motivations and goals, and through the sidequest system, you got to experience most of those first hand.
But this series isn't ABOUT the side quests, atmosphere, or tension. It's about the dungeon design. And I personally felt Majora's Mask did this very well, ESPECIALLY in regards to Stone Tower Temple, which really required that you understand the ins and outs of each of Link's forms to some degree. Dungeon layouts were still linear as all hell, of course, but at least the fairies gave you an incentive to explore a bit more. Dungeons often had two or three items: the mask associated with that dungoen, that dungeon's themed arrow, and sometimes, an item found before going to the dungeon, like the hook shot or mirror shield, each of which heavily affected what the developers could do with that dungeon. However, opinions vary. That's why I'm interested to see Mark's opinion on it, because maybe he saw something I didn't. Maybe the resetting was a drawback he wasn't pleased with, or maybe he felt it enhanced the dungeons a bit, as the arrow of each dungeon acted like a sort of check point.
Also, if the resetting bothers you so much, you can always use the bank. :p
+Clayton Grange then go back to play non challenging c:
The time limit was what made the game unique, your rupees were not reset if you used the bank which I wish they would put in every other Zelda game because it doesn't put a limit on how many rupees you can obtain. Personally I wouldn't mind another Zelda like Majora's mask. I can see why a time limit could make it annoying but it also adds a lot more intricacy to how you play.
Just found this channel and it's a real gem. The editing/visuals are fantastic, one of the best I've ever seen. Looking forward to more from you!
these sights and sounds trigger my nostalgia so hard.
To be honest, while I can agree with the idea of "making the player find their own path is better than making them follow the developer's path" in theory, I feel like Ocarina of Time is the perfect showcase for why a well done linear dungeon is infinitely superior to a poorly done non-linear dungeon using the Shadow Temple and the Water Temple respectively.
The Water Temple isn't disliked because it's hard, so much as because it's hard and... honestly kind of boring. The hallways are all bland and identical, which makes using spatial awareness skills to solve it more difficult than it honestly should be, and while the water level puzzles are a cool idea in theory in practice it's a chore even if you KNOW what you're doing - let alone how much of a pain in the ass it is to find out that you have to waste another ten minutes backtracking just because you forgot to set the water level back to normal.
In contrast, the Shadow Temple may not be the most cognitively taxing dungeon in terms of pure layout, but it does a fucking incredible job of maintaining an immersive and paranoid atmosphere and especially so in its use of illusion puzzles to mess around with the player's head. In fact, if I'm being honest, I feel like the linearity of it is integral to what makes the Shadow Temple so great; removing the player's agency and giving them no choice but to continue moving downwards into the depths of the catacombs only bolsters the sense of constant unease throughout and works as one of the many things contributing to the general "horror" theme of it that makes it so memorable and interesting. In contrast, the only thing I found memorable or interesting about the Water Temple was the Shadow Link fight, which had nothing to do with the layout whatsoever.
DolphinsAreEvil I think this comment deserves a reply as somebody that loves the shadow temple. It's my favorite one of them all throughout the whole series. I enjoy the water temple, I just find the shadow temple to be far superior.
Good points!
Zelda fans like you are why we got crappy dungeons in Wind Waker and the subsequent games. Suddenly it's not about the iron boots or getting lost, it's about ''how boring it is''. It was only boring to you because you weren't observant enough and didn't think things through enough, and therefore banged your head against a wall for hours on end not knowing how to progress. Suddenly ''atmosphere'' is more important than actual dungeon design, come on.... The hallways being bland and identical is your own assessment, one that I disagree with, and I don't think it differs much from the majority of the other temples in that regard.
The Shadow Temple is literally a hallway in all the wrong ways. There are virtually no puzzles that require any deep thought, the entirety of the dungeon is just a gauntlet of annoying enemies and traps. It may have ''atmosphere'' and a good boss, but it's nowhere near the Water Temple in terms of quality.
Idk water temple was my favourite temple aside from the chores. Others were nice too but this one you had to constantly think about at all times.
But a few things especially that one bottom area key are bad
@@handzar6402 Exactly. Well said. I'm sick of Zelda ''fans'' complaining about actually challenging dungeons and getting garbage dungeons like the ones in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess instead. Thanks for nothing folks.
"The Water Temple is actually one of Ocarina's best dungeons"
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave?
The water temple was always my favorite. It's more a question of atmosphere, but thanks for giving me some more arguments.
This brings back so many memories! Lovely review, and the soundtrack is always so remarkable.
I distinctively remember that me, my brother and a cousin played this game for 24 hours straight until we beat it. We didn't know where the fire arrow was, so we had to improvise and use flames to activate some torches in the Desert Temple. Surprisingly enough, you can still beat the game without getting the Fire Arrow at all! It took a lot of effort, but we didn't and I'll always be proud of 13-year-old me for that.
Link's awakening might have less linear dungeons, but this doesn't make them better. Most of them, except eagle's tower and turtle rock, were a bunch of room filled with easy puzzles and enemies without a context. It might be hard to find out what to do next, but I don't find this hard or challenging, just frustrating. And don't forget that one door that opens if you randomly throw a pot at it.
Your editing is amazing! Where did you learn how to do it? Great video, yet again, and keep up the great videos.
+JoJoXGamer thanks! a pal taught me the basics of using premiere but my style and the motion graphics are just stuff I'm figuring out as I go along
The Spirit Temple is and will probably forever be my favourite dungeon in the entire series. The theme (meaning both the song and the look/ feel of the temple), the puzzles, the fact that it's the only dungeon to incorporate the time travel mechanics and it gives you two items.
Majora's Mask is overall my favourite entry in the series and game overall but even with its masterful dungeons (I'd say the Stone Tower Temple is the best designed dungeon in the series) it couldn't touch the Spirit Temple.
4:01 bro backtracking is cathartic, thats one of the biggest dopamine rushes when you find an item or ability that you can use somewhere you’ve seen before
U deserve so much more subscriber's to be honest
They will come, his channel has been blowingup quickly since he started
No he doesn't.
+Matthew Etter oh.
While I disagree with you, I would like to know your reasoning.
he's got a good voice, really simpel to understand( english is not even my nativ language) and he analyses almost everything ( he can forget some things but everyone makes mistakes) and editing quality is really great
I seem to remember that it was actually possible to get stuck completely in the water temple making your game file completely useless. If that's true, I think that might have been an important titbit when discussing the dungeon's design...
Except that's not true.
8:25 Yeah, I didn't see that... It wouldn't have taken me 4 hours of endlessly revisiting every single room if I would have seen that.
Jesus the soundtracks of this game are amazing! Had a blast of nostalgia watching this video.
THANK YOU!
I've always championed the Water Temple as one of the best Zelda dungeons of all time, and it was annoying to see people blindly bashing it. The boots were an annoyance, yes, but that's a minor IU oversight, not a fail of the dungeon itself, and ultimately it doesn't brake the game.
Other than that, the dungeon is geniously designed, and a truly challenging puzzle.
I really like how you point out that the three water levels basically discourage brute force puzzle solving. And it's true. One of the most common complains about the dungeon is that you have to change the water temple a million times in order to beat the dungeon.
However, that's completely false. If you know what you're doing, you only need to change the water 3 times. One per level.
Seriously, go watch any speedrun (that doesn't exploit glitches) and see for yourselves.
So, in a way, the Water Temple required the same mentality as "Dark Souls": you had to "git gud". Just at dungeon puzzle solving, rather than boss fighting. lol
Punishing =/= challenging. If you don't know what you're doing, and *_nobody does the first time they play it,_* you have to change the water level more than 3 times. And doing so is slow, tedious, and boring. It's not challenging to incorrectly guess which path leads to a small key VS which path leads to a locked door that you can't open yet because you were looking for a key and found another locked door instead, only to then have to loop back around to the water changing locations so you can try a different path to explore. It's just needlessly punishing.
Honestly, you "I've played it several times (or just use a guide but I won't admit it because I need to act like I'm hot shit on the internet) and know exactly what to do now, so anyone who also doesn't know because they're playing for the first time just needs to git gud" cunts are the worst. *_THE WORST._* Go watch a speedrun, how about go fuck yourself if you expect people playing for the first goddamn time to be as good as a speedrunner.
"The 3D graphics..."
4:59
*Proceeds to zoom through doorway where walls are painfully 2D*
This series, and really just this channel, is spectacular. Seeing as I have an interest in developing games, this channel lets me know what's good and bad in a game. Keep up the great work man, you've earned my sub.
Greatest analysis and video essays on this platform, keep up the great work m8
Something silly about the water temple if I recall correctly is that in the Master Quest version it's ludicrously short, I remember visiting not even half of it before defeating the boss.
Yeh, I think the same was with the shadow temple where I ended up beating the dungeon with about 3 small keys left over
There was a time i was doing the water temple a long time ago on a replay, and i somehow passed 50% of the temple. I dont know if I glitched something, Or did something that i wasnt supposed to, but even my gamefaq's guide at the time had you do additional stuff that i somehow managed to skip.
If you guys wanna make the water temple shorter, just learn the scarecrow song. It's right there in lake hylia and allows the player to get to the highest zelda lullaby switch to raise the water level.
This series is amazing!!! great work!
I get your point with it not being as exploreable.
but…will you make another episode for master quest? since the dungeons are different.
can't wait for majora's mask!!!!
+GlitchDeity
Yeah they really got carried away with SoT blocks in that one. Aside from the stronger enemies (and the legendary cows inside Jabu Jabu) MQ wasn't that interesting to me.
The major interest in the Master Quest dungeons for me was seeing how the same 3D spaces with the same walls could be redressed with different props to give a different flow with different puzzles.
I think the heavy use of Song of Time blocks was an artifact of being stuck with the same geometry, and only having the standard props available for use rather than being able to move actual walls around or introduce new elements to address their design issues.
yasmin shamli u
I spent many long hours as a child exploring and backtracking that damn Water Temple. I remember I literally ran around my house celebrating when I finally figured it out and beat Morpha.
It's been a while since I've played Ocarina of Time, but the one thing I remember about them is how atmospheric they were compared to what came before. The music, the lay-out, the visuals of all the dungeons help make them all memorable in their own right, even before factoring what you actually do within them. The Forest Temple is still one of my personal favorite dungeons from this game, and there are a lot of factors for why that is, but it's atmosphere is definitely the biggest contributing factor.
Mark I was sort of hoping to hear some of your thoughts on the fight with dark link in that temple though that's not one of the focus of this series. perhaps your next series could be "Boss fights" haha
+ReubMann Good idea, poor execution IMO. I couldn't figure out how to sword fight him so just used Din's Fire and hammer :p
The thing I liked the most about dark Link fight was the amazing room. It seemed endless and then you fought yourself. And the room changed so it seemed like a hallucination.
The true boss is so boring and could be the worst boss in the entire game. (who thought it would be fun to kill a innocent sponge?)
Haha, you're not the only one xD, to think that you just had to not use Z-targeting to actually hit him with the sword :D
Twilight Princess, I feel, does a far better job of capitalizing on the 3D spaces in its dungeon design. There's dungeons where you can walk on the ceiling, or freely swim about to avoid the Iron Boots dilemma(They made it a hotkey, anyway), or the City in the Sky where you can spiderman around everywhere with Double Clawshots.
Not to mention all of the places that were designed to be explored differently as Wolf Link. I actually feel that Twilight Princess is a better game than OoT due to their design choices.
Don't say that, unless you want to hear REEEEEEEEEEEEEE, BUT THE BEGINNING REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EDGY
Kohdok
I agree loz oot set up the design of 3D
Twlight princess
Explored multiple ideas with it
Skyward sword
Was very unique with a lot of the dungeons
Btow is a masterpiece
or the City in the Sky where you can spiderman around *only in predetermined areas in a predetermined way and it's not actually all that open or non-linear at all. It's super linear. Which isn't always a bad thing, but let's not lie to ourselves either. A string of peahats lined up creating one singular path to double clawshot across is linear. A room with a lot of clawshot targets lined up in such a way that there's only one path through is linear. There's maybe one room in City in the Sky where you can actually spiderman around to solve a puzzle, the rest is linear as heck.
Hell, I've never been a fan of 3D Sonic games putting a string of harmless enemies over a pit for you to mindlessly homing attack to get across, but it's at least better than having to slowly aim at a string of harmless peahats with double clawshots.
It may be interesting to discuss the difference between a non-linear dungeon and one that doesn't seem non-linear. I think there's a huge difference between the two
good job with this video, this really outlines all the gripes and good things elements of gameplay can offer and I really enjoyed it, it really expands on what I thought of the game and was a lot of fun to watch keep it up :)
The water temple would have been perfectly fine, if it weren't for that "super cheeky" key.
Can I ask why complexity is a good thing in dungeons when simple dungeons like the forest temple are perceived as complex and fun? Legit question, not trying to stir anything here.
Been looking forward to this one! Great series, man. Great channel altogether!
you deserved a like for this, the analysis and editing are amazing!
Great stuff! Do you plan to tackle the Master Quest from Ocarina? (PS- Glad to see you've really spread your wings since Ninsprites!)
Now I'm curious about what Mark thinks about the Master Quest versions of the dungeons.
Especially Master Quest Jabu Jabu's Belly with its cows.
Never played it! But I may check it out for a bonus vid
Do it please. I am also interested.
the dungeons are overly complicated.... in the forst temple you make blocks appear on and off before yu even know you can do that... and i coutn even be bothered to solve the fire temple's madness and tried to take the item to the next dungeon...
elgatochurro
Forest is insanely easy. Ditto for Fire temple. The real hard dungeon is the WATER TEMPLE. Oh god. I can speed run it nowadays in what... 45 mins or an hour assuming 0 errors on my end and minimal backtracking. It's the main chamber that is the most consuming part, afterwards, it's a smooth ride.
I'm gonna need to check that out myself. I remember being really disappointed with OOT (since I played it long after the Oracle games with their more Link's Awakening approach), but if Master Quest is noticeably different...
This is legit my favourite channel on youtube.
Fantastic series so far, can't wait for the MM and Oracle episodes, since those are my favorites in the franchise.
Keep up the great work man!
FINALLY. SOMEONE WHO PRAISES THE WATER TEMPLE. I honestly felt like I was the only one who knew it was a fantastically designed dungeon, except for the bits of tedium it introduces.
Will you be going over the Master Quest version of Ocarina?
One thing you didn't mention, that I've noticed in OOT, is that once you solve all puzzles, get all keys, etc, the path from the dungeon's entrance, to the boss room, is actually pretty simple and straightforward. As if you could back out for supplies, come back, and not spend forever going to the boss room.
Those water temple animations were great! This video was amazing!
Good job man! :)
The Water Temple is so underrated.
I guess people just hate on it because they weren't able to figure out the puzzle and rather jumped on the hate-bandwagon instead of blaming their brains.
Can't help but compare this to egoraptors zelda review. Except this one doesn't sound so whiney.
Micah Williamson except this one is not JUST opinions and taste but factual information
the music is so soothing and beautiful ....
9:36 this is the key that kept any of my other siblings from getting through because they never noticed that the lifted block revealed a key, making me the only one to pass the temple.
I majorly disagree. Having a dungeon be linear, forcing you to solve puzzles that are in the very room you stand, ensures players will not get stuck, lost, and frustrated. For this reason I believe linear is good. Water temple is too fucking complex and it gives you too much space to explore. Which just makes players annoyed and never want to do the damn thing to begin with.
It's like Nintendo saw this video and was like "oh yeah? We'll show this guy! We're gonna make a game with so much open exploration and player choice he'll feel stupid for ever suggesting that Zelda lost its edge!"
And then breath of the wild was born.
Something that's worth noting is that the first two dungeons in OoT basically exist to train the player that you can look up. The first thing you have to do on entering the Deku Tree is to climb a ladder (and Link's house is up a ladder specifically to train you on ladders, just like there's a ledge right outside his house in LttP so you can find out about ledges), and it almost immediately puts a big chest in your path and two walltulas that make a noise to drag your attention to the climbable vines and up the wall. It won't let you out of the slingshot room until you look up and shoot a ladder, and Gohma fiddles around on the roof until you shoot her off it. Entering Dodongo's Cavern puts you into a two level room with the giant ribcage acting in the same way as a vaulted ceiling to pull the eye up to the upper walkways.
Great series! I'm wondering if you would consider making a video on Oracle of Ages / Seasons? It doesn't have to be about the games' dungeons, but maybe even just a general discussion. These are fairly unknown games to most people. As a kid I absolutely LOVED them and was obsessed with these games. I spent hours collecting all of the cool rings.
+Your Lord and Savior They're up after Majora's Mask!
*"Ocariner"*
Also Water temple bored me to death, I don't care how well designed it is, It's tedious to do, and I played it on the 3DS version.
It is boring because you don't play it in a right way. You should understand it's layout. Then, you can complete it with less backtracking. If you don't understand it's layout and it's puzzles . Then this is your mistake not the mistake of water temple.
Tbh I actually found the shadow temple harder
Having only played the water temple on 3DS it wasn't so bad. I found MM's water temple to be far more annoying.
Everyone has bad memories from it as a child where they may not have had the same cognitive abilities. In my eyes, Twilight Princess' water temple takes the cake.
I really hope at the end of this Series, we can get a conclusion to discuss some of these questions
What? No. Literally favorite of the fused shadow temples. They put a hilariously large amount of functionality into the hookshot in that dungeon. Every room before finding the hookshot is easier once you have it, and every room after a test of what you learned. Temple also isn't even that complex. Bomb arrow stalactites when you see them and focus on getting to the sides of the temple where the water can be activated to open more paths.
oot and mm made me hate water
I couldn't remember much about MM's water temple except being washed all over the place. Absolutely loved the OOT and TP water temple though.
Patchy .E. Like how the clawshot could instantly remove the brains of jellyfish or remove the bugs from their little bubbles without wasting bomb arrows? Oh or the fact they let skilled players stock up on high quality jelly for free? Pretty much the only thing I don't like about the temple is the boss. It looks big and intimidating, but is almost completely harmless. That mindset that this would be babies first zelda for a lot of people lead to a lot of unnecessary hand holding and overly easy combat. Most of my issues with the game would've been solved by putting less padding at the beginning, making enemies hurt just a bit more, and making potions expensive.
I want to remember to marathon this video series when you're finished with it. You're noticing a LOT of details about the dungeons and their structure from game to game that I've missed entirely when I played through them, and it's nice to get some extra perspective on an aspect that I've only passively paid attention to throughout my playthroughs.
Finding out how the water temple functioned and how to properly navigate it was definitely one of the most rewarding experiences from that era for sure. Much like Ico, which inspired the souls games we all praise for their interconnected level design today. Funny how we all mostly remember this level as a low point, and although I admit I got lost plenty, I did enjoy it.
I don't understand why linearity = bad. I don't need ergotherapy. Instead of complexity in dungeon architecture im looking for intelligent puzzles. Depth instead of breadth. Just my opinion.
I'm probably in the minority here, but dungeons are my least favourite part of Zelda games. I want to go around the overworld and explore, the dungeons are like a stop to the fun for me. It's like "Ugh, I want the dungeon item so I can explore the overworl even more, but I *really* don't feel like doing a whole dungeon for it..."
So I prefer the linear dungeons because they often go by quicker and I don't have to stay so long.
Forest temple music is still so impressive.
Hello mark, your work is awesome, I’m a architecture student and also a
big fan of the TLoZ Franchise, and after view all this videos of boss keys, I
wanna explore this idea of the videogames and aplicate to the real things, now,
also studing this temples, and the relation between rooms and spaces, and the way you can walk through the whole place. I also think that the non-linearity is
the best way to explore this type of buildings, and the make possible to the
user to be able to take decisions, the way the videogames do, and go to other
level, not in the same way the real life buildings. Thank you so much for your
videos, i'm waiting for all yours maps, and yours diagrams for the dungeons of
all the games.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was fascinated by OoT's Water Temple. Even though it could feel like a slog, the intricate design is quite masterful.
I feel the act of finding the keys in the Forest Temple adds to the exploration of the dungeon and doesn't make it feel so much like a 'Find the key, use the key' kind of dungeon. I remember on my last play through having to backtrack twice after coming up to locked doors I assumed wouldn't be there forcing me to explore the dungeon more thoroughly. Amazing series by the way. Keep up the amazing work
So glad to hear someone else who likes the Water Temple. There are dozens of us... DOZENS!
Yeah, but the 3DS made it a lot better to be honest.
Mark, my game design students love your videos. Thanks for the great content!
Honestly, even with the faults the other comments give this video, It is the best CZcams video I have seen whilst being on CZcams!
Top quality editing and I am amazed at how much work this is!
Thanks so much Mark!
I remember getting lost in that Water temple.
I loved that! The only other dungeon that I got stuck in was the Lava place, but that was because I had to make I jump that I thought Link couldn't make.
One thing I love about the game is that there is a little bit of freedom with what order you do the temples in. After the deku tree you can do either temple, because neither one uses the item from the other. After the forest temple you can choose between the fire temple or the water temple. This time though whichever you pick will help you get the item in the other. The Longshot can grapple you to the chest containing the hammer. However, dark link can't defend against attacks from the hammer, making him MUCH easier to beat. Same with the last 2, order doesn't matter for spirit or shadow.
Honestly, my biggest problem with the Water temple isn't the Iron boots and menus, not the constant sinking and rising in water (at such a slow pace, I might add), not even getting lost and having to backtrack to past areas (I agree that being more aware of the dungeon, the mechanics, and the architecture should be rewarding, and I thank you for putting it into words), but what really bothers me is constantly having to travel to the same 3 rooms in the same order to change the water level. It requires you to go through many of the same rooms just to change the layout, It becomes really tedious especially if you're new to the dungeon and don't realize where everything is. Combine that with the slow sinking and rising and I always found the Water temple to be really annoying.
If the switch that changed the main layout/mechanic of the dungeon was in one central room (like in the Great Bay Temple) I'd probably forgive it more.
But I can see why you like it, and I'll even acknowledge that there are rooms and puzzles in the Water temple that I remember fondly.
I'm pretty glad I found this series just recently, your analyses are pretty interesting :]
wow, the views skyrocketed! great video as always
Love this stuff. Good work
The 3ds water temple is one of my favorite zelda dungeons.
I'll just argue right off the bat that the way Forest Temple forces you to look all over, and even backtrack, for several keys before you think you can openly progress further into the level is anything but linear.
I could argue the exact same for Great Jaboo Jaboo's Belly, Fire Temple, Water Temple, Spirit Temple, Bottom of the Well, Gerudo's Fortress, and Gannon's Castle.
This game was tricky for me as a child because it presents chains of rooms with locked door after locked door, and essentially makes you scramble for the compass and even scratch your head when you don't know *how* to get that key in the room. Even having grown up playing OoT it multiple times I would still get stuck in the Forest and Water temples today as far as order goes.
In short, linear path design does not a linear experience make. This game in fact felt far from linear at times, despite it's narrative structure, which is simply a testament to its design.