The truth behind Doohan's unconventional riding style
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- Mick Doohan is one of the greatest motorcycle racers of all time, achieving a period of dominance through the mid to late nighties like very few others have achieved. His talent is undeniable, but there’s one aspect of his riding that, to this day, still creates debate. His riding style.
More specifically, should his riding style be avoided, or is it ok to emulate it because body position doesn’t matter that much?
Link to the full Gypsy Tales Podcast featuring Mick Doohan:
• Motorcycle Legend Mick...
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I think 5 World Championships and 54 GP wins comprehensively answers that question...
Yep, it certainly answers the question of "did the bunch of rednecks strapped to a missile know what they were doing?" No, the answer is no.
Riders today are trained from the age of like 3 complete with full time coaching and data recording. Riders even up to the 90s were just rando kids that rode dirt bikes and were better than the other randos. This has happened to pretty much every sport.
To true!
Definitely, fun to look at his style though
I'm pretty sure he let Creville win once . So maybe 55
Difficult to argue!
I truly believe Doohan's greatest advantage wasn't anything physical. It was his mentality. The man was a monster, and his ability to block out pain was evident for all to see at the time. I remember his premature return from the horrendous leg injury at the end of the 1992 season, in an attempt to salvage his first world title bid. The sight of him at the end of the race being helped from his bike, ashen face contorted with pain will stay with me forever.
It worked for him. He may nave had a nonconformist style but like most Aussie sportsman . He made it work.
Ya. Those bikes were loose. It would snap loose under you and grip back etc. So you needed to let them move around and stay disconnected from the bike (and being "on top" is the best way to do that.) With modern bikes and tires you can "trust" the bike and lean into it / hang off it. But you couldn't do that back in the day, the power spike of the 2 stroke meant that the back wheel would light up and then you'd fall (because you didn't have a stable base to hang off).
The bikes weren't just loose, they had to be wrestled through the corners. That's why the GP500 machines were called start-and-stop machines and the reason why so many riders who came from the smaller bikes had trouble adopting to a GP500 bike. With the smaller bikes it was all about keeping the momentum, because they lacked the power to accelerate out of a corner like a GP500. Therefore on an 80cc, a 125cc or a 250cc it was key to keep your speed in the corners as high as you could. With a GP500 it was mostly the opposite: wrestle it through a corner any way you could, fire it down the straight, hit the brakes as hard as you could and wrestle it through the next corner. Rinse and repeat. The Honda's were the almost textbook example of this philosophy, pretty much relying on sheer horsepower only, whereas the Yamaha's and later the Suzuki's were much closer to a 250cc philosophy, where corner speed and a smooth acceleration out of the corner were more important. That difference alone would cause many Honda riders to adapt to a very specific riding style and Doohan simply was the best at it.
Exactly what I was thinking. Riding a high hp 2 stroke like a modern bike will get you killed. You needed to allow the bike to slide around. A modern bike, with smooth power delivery, is a completely different animal to ride. Rossi didn't prove style evolved, he proved bikes evolved and driver style needed to change as a result.
He was the greatest rider, in the greatest era.
Those 500cc two strokes were SAVAGE ANIMALS.
And Mick Doohan nailed 5 World Championships, in a row.
He's the GOAT!
🏆
The 2 strokes 500's that Wayne gardner rode were far more aggressive and the later models we're more refined
Can't have been too wrong, he won a few races.
It would be a brave man to say mick didn't know how to ride or was wrong, i think winning proves your right
Well said!
Very informative. I'm an older dude. My buddy that's now a control rider is constantly haranguing me for riding on the track like it's still the '80s. But I'm comfortable and can hang with him. I'm having fun ripping around, does it really matter what I look like?
Great video! Supermoto racing is a good example of what Doohan is saying. Some riders go foot out sitting on top of the bike, some go knee down. And some riders use a combination of both depending on the speed of the corner. If you're comfortable and at the pointy end then you're doing great. Modern MotoGP bikes have such insane grip coupled with electronics that the only way to go fast as possible is to hang off as far as possible.
Great summary of all the various riding styles. It is clear by Mick Doohan's record that he found a style of riding that suited the machine he was riding to a point where he felt comfortable in pushing himself and his machine to limits higher than his competitors even those with the same machine and won 5 championships so in that era with those bikes to ride his style is correct as it proved to give the results required to beat the rest of the field. Not saying I would try to imitate it as I do not ride with anywhere near the speed or commitment on public roads but what I do thus far has kept me from throwing the bike or myself down the road so far and that is what works for me so I will happily stick with what has worked for me. I completed a ride day Phillip Island in Australia and remember being midway through turn 1 and seeing 170kph on the speedo and thinking how quick am I, only to be rounded up by bikes travelling far quicker and at angles my brain simply could not comprehend as they most tried to wear their knee sliders out seemingly at every opportunity...lol
I ride with one hand at 170 kph mid corners, sometimes even waving at cops traveling in opposite directions at a full lean. Meaning knee and elbow kissing the tarmac.. LoL.. Grow some cazones mate and don't worry, your bike is capable of much more than you are .
You nailed the most important aspect of his style - tires. During Doohan’s era the tires were primitive, with little side grip compared to today. It was much more important to get the 500 back up on the meat of the tire and off the edge. They couldn’t lean any more if they wanted to, so body positioning was a bit more extreme to maximize corner speed without sacrificing exit speed. Great video!
if you are a tall guy,you cant lean to the ground like marc marquez,he was a small guy and Rossi was a tall guy,it does not work for tall guys,now marquez advantage is gone,he broke his humerus,once you brake your humerus it is over,he cant lean to much to the ground anymore..
If you followed Mick you’d also see he was happy to sit back for 5 or 6 laps warming his tyres before he’d start racing
And suspension, you can have the grippyest tyres ever made but without good suspension they may as well be made from plastic!
Never realized it till you highlighted it. In sportbike riding, Doohan's position is often called "crossed up" and generally ridiculed nowadays
Those ridiculed those style generally think that "when the shoulder and elbow didn't grazed the tarmac, it means you are not on the limit."
Most that ridiculed those style are just fanboys that didn't even racing.
Your point regarding the abrupt torque curve on the 500cc 2-strokes is very apt. The power hit like a light switch and with no traction or slide control aids.... it was a true test of riding skills. So any style that helps you "manage" a low traction, powerful bike that moves around underneath you, a lot, I think was the key. How can I control this beast and still go fast and without crashing (too often!)?
There's a bloke, a top bloke who had his troubles, fast as F@%k about to leave the mortal coil who had a riding style that deserves it's own review. Anthony Gobert.
Gobert's style wasn't that far off Mick's
@@neilr4867 Yeap, very similar.
I remember him on a crappy Kawasaki at Phillip island getting smoked down the straight, doing impossible things through the corners only to lose his lead again as multiple bikes would fly by.
Crazy.
@@NPC-fl3gq That was nuts, braking into Honda corner shoving Aaron Slight out of the way, leave Gobert an inch and he'd take all of it.
He died last night.
In car racing, there's a saying
"Fast corners, slow hands.
Slow corners, fast hands".
Similarly, I've found the crossed position great for tight hairpins and the low hang off good for fast sweepers.
I think it's Front end grip that enables today's body position + Rear grip ,but change of body position over years I believe is related too grip and bike feel .
This is something that is often forgotten when people talk about "elbow down" etc. People twist their body in all sorts of awkward positions just to get the elbow down, when elbow down is just something that will naturally happen if you drive a bike at 60° lean angle (which your bike might or might not even be capable of achieving).
I think also that tire technology has played a role in how motorcycles can be cornered. Better grip, better feedback and more lean angle
Doohan style on the left turn is considered as "counter-lean" style. Characterised by high shoulder position relative to the position of the bike. Very popular among riders up to late 90s because of the dirt-bike heritage and ability to counteract most issues coming from temperamental bikes of those eras.
Doohan, Schwantz, Bayliss are proponents of counter-lean style with high elbows. Corser, Slight, Abe are proponents of counter-lean style with low elbows.
Personally I use counter-lean style in my daily riding for its handling advantages. As a racing fan, leaning style looks extreme but counter-lean is more pleasing to watch. More understated style that hides the aggressiveness needed to tame the bike.
Once I started counter leaning on my CB900 I found it was super easy to ride on mountains
@@mrsnezbit2219 class comment 🤣
My favourite is left hand turns as well. I just do not feel comfortable in right han turns as I don't like how my right hand is on the handlebar while holding the throttle. I just can't figure out how to fix it. I used to race in the Danish 250 Production Championship, but that was 20 years ago. Now I've done a couple of trackdays on my '94 RC36 and I'm prepping another '94 RC36 for trackdays only, so maybe I'll get used to it again.
Being comfortable on the bike is IMHO the most important thing. When you are comfortable, then you can start to improve laptimes.
Quick Mick is a GP500 legend, I think he was spot on with his style and the 5 consecutive World Championships proves that.
Are you gripping the right hand too tightly? I finally was able to relax and "candle stick" throttle in right turns. Allows me to get my elbow out more and come comfort overall. I would highly recommend getting your RC bars low and wide. (if you haven't already')
Great summing up 👍 Great to see mighty Mick again, I didn't realise how different his positioning was between left and right handers.
As a "hyper/sports bike" rider with many years (started riding in 1964) and a father that raced both cinder track (speedway) and road race with Ray Amm/Mike Hailwood/ Jim Redman, he taught me to tuck in/out of the fairing to use the wind to aid you in dragging you down into the corner.
If you look at Rossi's style his upper body was wide open like a yacht sail on the inside which no doubt aided him
Modern riders are very close down next to the tank and fairing and appear to use massive amounts of counter steer
I am almost 70 now. And i have just recently sold my modded 270hp Suzuki BKing monster that gpsd at 316kmh. It was still pulling but backed off as a larger person with that tiny guage wind deflector the wind was about to tear you off the top......
And yep. I been high sided. At high speed on my GS1200 on a gravel road. It hurt. And took about 13 months to heal. And still have torn out bicep in my right arm and left tricep in the back of my shoulder, my left knee not too good and right ankle tells me often to not walk on it.....
Riding style?
Find what works for you. Over 1,5 million km, every bike or situation on/off road determined your riding style and you adapted to it........or ended up on the ground.
IOM TT riders have a totally different style at insane speeds in insane situations on the street.....and they adapt
Stay safe out there
Live to ride
Ride to live......
Kudos, I think this is the best video I ever saw about this topic... Thanks‼️🤗
I have come back to track riding after a long gap. I am a big rider (both tall and overweight!), and this does not always allow me to adopt a predetermined style like those you point out. My old style was more like Mick as there were poorer tyres and no electrics as you point out, but now the bikes are so much better in those areas I have tried to take advantage of this by changing my style. Making that change has been a very difficult task for me, (old dog, new tricks etc.) but I do see a benefit when I manage remember to do it. When all else fails I go back to what I know and I guess I just need more time on track to change the muscle memory I have retained. Thanks for yet another balanced view on what can be a contentious issue!
I remember Mick saying that the bike was difficult to turn, so he required to counter steer to achieve the turn. Made sense then, makes sense now, as I adopt CS always for enhanced control
You can't turn a motorcycle without countersteering.
You cant turn a bike without counter steering.
Coz physics
Thank you for continuing to make video, have learned a lot from your channel in the 1st few years of riding !
Good to have you back mate! Thanks for this one 👌
Loved his riding style and he was the one that got me hooked on motorcycle racing not only do to his style, but also his personality
Mick’s timing was perfect, with the departure of Shwantz, Lawson and Rainy he had no real competition. Outclassed the entire field.
Yeah, the inch perfect lines were just a fluke, lap after lap after lap after lap after lap... you'd have had a chance I'm sure!!
/s
You could say that about any era of racing, of any category of any sport. True meaning?
What an absurd observation. There were other highly talented riders on factory and factory spec bikes and the other factory bikes handled better. Doohan had real competition-he was better. He was more than competitive against Rainey and Shwantz. Kevin even admitted if Mick hadn’t been injured he (Kevin) would probably not have won his championship.
Doohan was on his way to the 1992 title before breaking his leg, and physically was still recovering in 1993. It was a massive injury. Schwantz single title was in no small part due to Doohan and Rainey’s crashes
A mate of mine and I were discussing why we have different seat positions on our dirt bikes according to the bike we ride and found, along wjth some videos, the counter lean. We heard that it keeps you in a safe position but more fully engages the big chunky side lugs on a good dirt tyre. We also discovered we were counter leaning the hardest on our 250cc two strokes which loved to dance around while you tried to put the power down. It was the same logic we explained the newer riders as to why you try to use your rear brake more when you are learning on a mean two stroke because of the safety and happiness of the bike to steer with the rear wheel rather than the front: with power the rear tries to come past, with brakes its safer to ride the same way.
We aren't racers but we always wondered why we rode so different from bike to bike without even thinking about it.
Doohan was impressive and watching _all_ those top-tier riders back then is a fascinating experience. Riders with the ABILITY to ride at that level in a given era of technology. The 500's required multiple crazy levels of skills and watching Casey Stoner slide through 3 at Phillip Island is enough to get my heart thumping. heh! Tyres. Power. Suspension. All apply to an era and the riders.
If the current moto GP riding styles were attempted on the old screamer 500 there would be a lot of frequent fllyer miles being earned.
Definitely feels that way
I think it may well have been one of your videos that pointed out how the more extreme lean angles we see now are more about disrupting the aero flow from the winglets on the inside on the bike when turning that pushes the front tyre out. I think that knowledge is key when comparing new & older styles. As many other commenters on this video have pointed out, micks success says it all.
Awesome synopsis Sir!
Very interesting, thank you 👍
leverage and vision are what i get, by being more upright even if hung off to the inside. once you start pushing your shoulder into a turn you lose some of both. frankly the most amazing thing with modern road racers to me is their ability to still have depth perception while being so close to the ground.
Incredible isn't it
Find a style that works for you by riding in different situations. There is NO wrong way.
I am a 15 year saction road racer. You absolutely want to keep all your weight on the high peg. Meaning if your hard over left you want to keep as much body weight on your right foot peg as possible so you don't scoot the tire contact patch out from underneath you.
I've done a few track days and the first few open laps I lean off the bike using my legs as support but that doesn't last long as I'm just too unfit now and too old, I usually last for 5 sessions and end up knackered.
I've been experimenting with body position on the street on my MT10 and find Doohans style works pretty well shifting weight to the inside and down low just feels natural and I can feel everything the chassis is doing much better. Any time I try to kiss the mirrors method my arms feel weird like I need to adjust how far forward or back I am due to my body build. If you watch videos of other fast riders with different riding positions they still go fairly fast and safely like Simon Carafar in his motovudu videos his body position is not extreme like MotoGP.
On the street, and at street speeds, a style like this is completey fine in my opinion and far safer for that purpose!
My style was to hang my arse off into the turn with inside knee pushed forward along the tank, it helped load the front end on TZ350s and TZ750s, with careful throttle control it caused the back wheel to slide progressively instead of snapping out the way it did with knee drag hang off. And yeah, several broken ribs, a dislocated knee and a metal shoulder joint replacement taught me that the hard way
The 2 pics of me racing show it as a very similar position to Mick, not quite the same but VERY similar. If only I could put a pic on here , , , ,
It’s really worth watching The Unrideables 1 and 2 documentaries to understand the top level racing bikes and riders of this time. A golden era of talent in my opinion.
Reminds me of the old saying," only and take advice from two people: Those who have something you want, or do something better than you."
Agree entirely with Mick's comments and your advice.
it's faster to change direction by flicking the bike down than your body, it saved me one time when i came out of a tunnel and there was a charp turn just outside, (i misscalculated the speed i had in the tunnel)
Keep 'em coming, good video!
Is definitely whatever works for the individual and what feels comfortable, riders should try new techniques though, I can remember watching ELav riding the WorldSBK R1 and noticed just how far he was hanging off it, I tried to do this my next race weekend at East Fortune and felt it did help at some corners. Then later you see the photographers shots of you and realise you were no where near as far off as you thought 😂.
Another example was Alastair Seeley last season in stock1000 vs “the elbow draggers”, his more central body position was still effective.
Negative 2 today I'm so ready for the track season
Before i started learning about riding styles and whatnot i found myself adopting this sort of position. It just felt natural to me? Maybe its wrong idk but i go fast enough and it's helped me save thd bike when over the limit
I think the counter lean of the upper body puts more weight on the front tire...thus helping with traction in that era of less than perfect tire technology.
Interestingly enough, VR said that one of his advantages was that he was (is) good both when turning and also when turning right. He was very honest about it.
Can you expand on what you mean by neutral body position? Thanks
I think going by Micks world titles, his riding style was bang on.
Yeah kinda stupid people saying his style was bad when he owned the class for years.
I always liked the style of Wil Hartog (one of the top Dutch riders back in the day), because of his height, he didn't move from the seat to not upset the balance, at least that's what I heard about it back in the day :).
I was in awe of King Kenny inventing what I call Extreme Leaning. What they do now is more of a Lay Over!?
Let’s also just bear in mind that bikes and tyres change over time… styles that worked previously don’t necessarily continue to work. The current guys hang right off because of the incredible grip they have now.
Well thought out conclusions.
Without knowing anything about any of this, I will take a stab in the dark and assume that modern riders have a lot more science to guide them on what works best, including telemetry to quantify everything they do out on the track.
Doing "what feels best to you" and "what works best for you" goes a long way and is an integral part of our individuality, however, imagine when McLaren first introduced the DRS mechanics on their cars where the drivers had to move their leg and close up a gap to stall the rear wing and go faster down the straights, style and personal preference were out of the question, the drivers had to use their body to alter the perfromance of the car and gain a significant advantage.
If a certain body position offers more speed, more grip etc by altering the CoG or drag then it offers a performance advantage and today with the existing technology that can be predicted, measured and exploited.
Doohan to his credit one of the more sensible people in motor bike racing. When he was racing he often said he had no time for racing history. Looks like he lived by those words and applied what was best for him at the time. Too many live in a past that has certainly moved on.
My body position on a bike is kinda like Doohan's and for the same reasons - from the dirt bike riding background because it was easier to flick the bike around with that type of body position
The laws of physics dictate the ideal, but physical capabilities dictate the reality.
Plus real world conditions I might add. Public roads are very different to closed courses(Race tracks) and should not be treated the same IMO.
I'd be interested in your take on the late, great Abe's style
Yes he has a similar style too, actually
I am not into "heroes" as such, but I can unashamedly say that Mick was my motorcycle hero. He inspired me, with some rather expensive suspension and engine modifications, to push my '97 Lowrider to the absolute limit, often creating showers of sparks in controlled drifts. Everyone at the time insisted that "Harleys don't handle", but I didn't care, my only competitor was myself, and what a competitive bustard he was. I never dropped it, but my Avon Venoms showed wear right up to the edge of the tread.
Bit difficult to load the outside peg to catch the slide with your elbow on the deck.
I'd love to see the NSR500 up against the new MOTO GP bikes, but with the NSR kitted out with modern tires with actual grip.
5 straight 500 titles....54 wins? 'nuff said! Fair dinkum! 👍👍👍
I would like to see people like Marques on the bike Mighty Mick rode to see how they would handle that era of bike. Also I would like to hear your opinion on Casey Stoner as it was he who on the 4 strokes especially the 800cc variants and later the 1000cc changed the cornering style we see today take a look at stoner corner at phillip island, where Valentino openly admitted he had to try to emulate Stoners cornering style to remain competitive.
I was always told my style was weird or wrong but never struggled to keep up or best the people saying so.
Years later I was watching Doohan racing and I realised where it came from - watching him as a young man I had just started using that style since it was what I'd seen on the TV and I had a history in dirt bikes anyway.
Tried a few different ones over the years but none have been as effective with the caveat that on modern bikes with a LOT of grip, leaning off more seems to help if only because the bike can't turn enough to use that grip without the extra lean.
His (my) style works really well as a fast road one too because it gives you options when things get slippery.
Its also quite similar to Joey Dunlop's style around the island - again as a fast road style its really very effective.
Great channel great advise
Meany thanks
Also tyres, early bikes used bias ply vs radial. I've ridden on both and the way the bikes slip and grip are VERY different.
I would imagine that tyres are the biggest reason why they lean more now
I'm getting old and still racing. I am having to adjust as my knees will allow. They don't bend as well as they used to.
For me its about keeping the bike as upright as possible through a corner for a bigger contact patch for more grip and you position your body asbbest you can to achieve that.
I'll probably catch some slack for this but I think the fastest way around a corner on 2 wheels is to counter lean and this is to even out the forces exerted on the tire. Fortnine did a video about this a few years ago where he shows you the math behind the theory but before he made that video I always thought it would make more sense to counter lean because if you're leaning with the bike, you're exerting more one way pressure on the tire's contact patch vs. counter leaning where the forces are more evened out.
I mostly just sit neutral then duck down depending on corner speed to lower center of gravity. Not by much, but I can feel the difference.
Mind you, I only ride on road so I'm not optimising anything for speed.
Mostly for ..... feel of control over the bike. I usually go to a riding position that gives me the ability to turn, brake or accelerate in any direction for any reason to manage risk on the road.
I mostly just sit neutral then duck down depending on corner speed to lower center of gravity. Not by much, but I can feel the difference.
Mind you, I only ride on road so I'm not optimising anything for speed.
Mostly for ..... feel of control over the bike. I usually go to a riding position that gives me the ability to turn, brake or accelerate in any direction for any reason to manage risk on the road.
I mostly just sit neutral then duck down depending on corner speed to lower center of gravity. Not by much, but I can feel the difference.
Mind you, I only ride on road so I'm not optimising anything for speed.
Mostly for ..... feel of control over the bike. I usually go to a riding position that gives me the ability to turn, brake or accelerate in any direction for any reason to manage risk on the road.
I mostly just sit neutral then duck down depending on corner speed to lower center of gravity. Not by much, but I can feel the difference.
Mind you, I only ride on road so I'm not optimising anything for speed.
Mostly for ..... feel of control over the bike. I usually go to a riding position that gives me the ability to turn, brake or accelerate in any direction for any reason to manage risk on the road.
And odd thing i found with me.. as i started out i found left hand corners more natural and easier to lean into, whereas right handers meant my throttle hand was more cramped up while leant over, making it more awkward...
But.. living in the UK.. left hand corners meant more caution as mistakes meant oncoming traffic, and at the same time we have roundabouts.... Which makes for a lot of great right hand corner practice..
So now right hand corners are super polished, but left hand corners more awkward and less practiced.
There is another major issue in "modern" riding style not mentioned here, and it has to do with the new aero elements on the motorcycle bodywork, more specifically the front wings and tail winglets. Riders now have to "leave" the bike in a different manner, placing their bodies in front of the wing facing down on a turn to neutralize the flow of air to that wing, because they are designed to have downforce when they are on the outside of a turn, or when they are on the top, so, by blocking the air flow to the wing on the down side (because it would have the reverse effect), only the wing on top will provide the downforce to push down the front end of the bike providing extra grip. The same is true to the tail winglets. The thing about moto aerodynamics, unlike cars, is the obvious fact they lean hard into turns, so they are designed to behave in different forms according to the angle of the bike, and the riders now are an element in aerodynamics, using their bodies not just as the old "pendulum", but as a "wall" to block air flow to aero pieces in certain conditions,
Doohan and style....not words that should be put in the same sentence, cant remember anyone copying him.
When riding on the road there is an advantage to keeping your head high to maintain visibility, and also you keep your head further away from oncoming vehicles or objects on the side of the road. I think Doohan's style is perfect for when riding on public roads.
How close are you riding to the centre line where you need to keep your head away from oncoming cars? Wow.
After having my right ankle fractured, I can no longer ride a sportbike comfortably especially when it forces me to lean in. After switching to naked bike and learn counter-leaning, it feels a lot more comfortable and confident although I do lean in on long sweeping corner so it's not like only 1 body position is right.
Considering he won the championship 5 years in a row, and often would cross the finish line 30+ seconds ahead of #2, his style was definitely better than everyone else's (at the time).
Oh, and dhe current drivers probably wouldn't keep an NSR 500 V4 on the road for even 2 corners before being yeeted into orbit by that beast... :)
The 2-stroke one-off characteristics was made painfully clear to me when I had a test drive on an Aprilia RS250R on a Danish racetrack back in the late 90's. Not being used to 2-strokes, I came into the "horseshoe" with about 1000 rpm lower than where I should have been. Full throttle, nothing much happened. Well, untill I hit the power band, and I almost lost control going into the next corner too hot. Oh, and that was after getting my privates squished by the tank after finding out that those dual Brembo's on the front had considerable more bite than the single 230mm on my own Honda CB250RS, braking for turn 1 coming out of the pit.
Everything went much smoother on my test drive of the smaller RS125R afterwards. Keeping it between 11 and 13K the entire time, I had the time of my life on that "pocket rocket". :)
There’s no right or wrong. If it works for you that’s ok if it doesn’t then it’s not. Doohan is a legend.
Risk of Amputation: a short Bicycle movie "A Throw of the Dice" , a wonderful Ridley Scott associate showing faith on the battlefield, for those of us out there
People forget the tracks then were not the pristine billiard table surfaces they tend to be now......bumpy on the way in and bumpy on the way out so you needed to be in a position to absorb the kicks...
Rider lean position also has a lot to do with how the machines are built these days. Suspension advances have allowed more compact suspension units therefore the rider can be lower on the bike. It's all very well waffling on about how different and exciting modern GP is but 80's GP500 had much the same lean angles but could not share modern riding position since it wasn't possible at the time.
Looking at a photo of Ant Gobart today and I instantly saw Mick's style
Gobert was unique, the first bloke I ever saw hang the rear out like he had his own slipper clutch. RIP.
I will say from riding snowmobiles that there is a thing as too much mass on the inside. It is unstable and slower. If your sensitivity is high and you can notice the difference then there is a point to recognize that a critical higher mass at crazy lean angles has an advantage.
Look at vids of Boet Van Dulmen. Only rider I ever saw who rode west of that neutral line.
It wasn't just dirt bike riders that were doing relatively well in 500cc racing. Flat track/ dirt track background was almost a prerequisite in the late 70s, most of the 80s, and maybe in the 90s as well.
It doesn’t matter what your riding style is as long as your comfortable and feel confident through the corners, when I’m on track it feels like I’m hanging off the bike but when I look at photos it looks like I’m riding a cruiser!!!! But it’s my style and it suits me.
U on track this year ?
You missed the part of Doohans interview when he said he wanted to be on top of the 500 to be ready for the inevitable highside
If his dodgy Right Leg was part of the reason for his differing Style (left v right turns), surely he would have hung off *LESS* in the R/H turns?
You need more strength in the Leg on the *inside* of a corner, to change your Body position when initiating the transition back to upright.
Isn't it more likely to be an issue with Peg Weighting?
Mick reminds me on Jarno Saarinen!
Doesn't more lean equal faster cornering, not just moving the cg in? I know it is moderately complex as to how a bike corners but isn't it just camber thrust that produces the turning force.
Body position may be somewhat important but the side grip available with modern tires is why they corner faster. Because they can lean further over. Doohan would have looked similar with new tires. Especially with the traction control available.
Very good. He tamed the "big bang" engine & gained a performance advantage with his combination of riding style & clutch slipping. The right style is all about the job at hand. And Mick Doohan created traction control with the clutch. Pretty much the modern electronics in manual mode. Not something the rest of us will do, because we have to pay for the clutch. 😁
When the trail on the steering is increased, the bike stays more vertical and oversteers. It means the rider can accelerate through corners better. The rear suspension setting and smooth power delivery become more important. With less trail, the bike will understeer both when braking into a corner and accelerating out. Increasing wheel size or rake, or decreasing yoke offset, will all increase trail. - I do not know the down-side.
Weight the outside peg is all that matters. This puts all your body weight vertically above the traction point.
What ever works for the type of bike you are on is the key to being top 3
As someone with virtually identical injuries to mick it has a real marked affect on how you ride and even how you would like to ride even, also I think talent outweighs technique, look at riders like Sheene Hutchinson Doohan all great riders while being severely hamstrung by the injuries they carried
F...yes, crazy talent and crazy in the head..in a nice way..
As an Australian growing upside down in the 90s, Doohan was a fucking superhero to me... He actually knows my aunty Elaine well, she used to babysit him when he was little and his best friend is my cousin so I got to meet him a few times when I was little and I have some special stickers and a tshirt from his 1997 championship celebrations which he signed and brought to dinner just for me.
He is even cooler and more humble in person than you can imagine. A gentleman and a legend, sometimes your heroes are exactly who you hoped they'd be.
Edit: I've been writing lots of song lyrics lately and a litre bit of poetry. I didn't mean to rhyme above, I can't stop doing it. Someone please, you need to help me.
Seriously it's annoying.
So what would you say about the style of Mike Hailwood who practically never left the centre of the bike and certainly never put his knees towards the tarmac? But he won so many races and on all kinds of machinery.
There really wasn’t much “hanging out” when Hailwood was racing. He practically retired in 67-68 and only made a brief come back in 78.
We're all individuals . Whatever works for you is best . If it ain't fucked , don't fix it . . .
Definitely easier when I started drifting into the turns and then slid both tires out.... PPPFFTT!!
(that was clearly BS)
One simple thing that i didn't realize I was putting my weight on the leg where I was turning (track day). Kept finding myself super fatigued after 15mins. Instructor reminded me to use opposite leg to "hang off" the bike. Was like a switch went off and everything got easy. Next trackday event I was bumped to the A group YIKES !! Needless to say that was super intense and will take some getting use to. (and super rad at the same time)
YES! "Hanging off" was the cue that transformed my riding, it allowed me to be so much more loose on my controls and inputs...also makes you feel like you're "one" with the bike and not fighting it all the time.