Explaining Why Cloud Is Still Great in Ultimate
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- čas přidán 10. 03. 2021
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#LarryLurr #SmashUltimate #Cloud - Hry
I wish they made his limit meter drain to show its duration, sometimes keeping track of the exact 15 seconds can be a bit difficult. Final Smash meter does this with a 20 second duration.
damn that would honestly be a godsend
limit should only go away after 15 seconds if you get hit, like little mac's ko punch. Because it just goes away it's basically wasted on a random neutral B every time because the character is too weak to set up a kill for himself within 15 seconds most of the time
@@Xaasrevile I think 30 seconds would be Perfect
@@Xaasrevile bro if you can't get damage or a kill off of limit in FIFTEEN seconds you gotta improve yourself instead of blaming the game.
@@dandyd1877 sometimes fifteen seconds is a lot of time, sometimes not so much. Chill bro y u gotta go on the attack what'd he do???
Cloud's sword is longer than Ike's,but Ike nair range is bigger than Cloud's nair
That's because Cloud spergs out and pops his shoulder out of it's socket to reduce it's range. They should've just given him a different hitbox, instead of twisting his arm like some stretch armstrong.
Yeah I mean have you seen sm4sh
Society
Sadge
Personally I think they should buff because it's quite inconsistent and it isn't a very safe move, and yes. It was a bit unfair in the previous game, cus no-one else really had a tool to counterpart the move (and or those who had a move of similar or equal size, were complete shit). But in Ultimate it's a different case, because characters with stupid range are almost normal, I mean Pyra and Ike practically have smash 4 Cloud Nair and both are even stronger than Cloud's Nair in both games, it doesn't kill offstage until like 150-60 (depending the weight), compared to Link for example that he's move is smaller but it's way stronger.
I feel in this game moves aren't mainly annoying by it's size but more about what they can do or how they work, I mean Palutena's Nair isn't that big compared to Min Min (for example), but everyone hates it even though doesn't have a HUGE range.
Sparg0: Wall jumps off Pokemon Stadium and gets Limit after buffering a down air out of hit-stun.
Elite Smash Clouds: C L I M H A Z Z A R D
this is a war of ness
Cloud doesnt twist his hand when he nairs, he outright breaks it then uses heal to continue the match
This is the new canon now.
Love your pfp they need devil Jin in smash 😩
@@Unnkxn0wn lol look who's in now
@@donny3940 I knoww I can’t believe it
@@Unnkxn0wn I would’ve rather had Jin in Smash, I thought he would’ve been more interesting. Kazuya is pretty cool too though
For anyone wondering, the background music is called “Ffvii Lofi” on CZcams and it’s the two videos by riftibeats
Thanks 🙏
Smooth
Big advert for “buy a LAN” at the end
14:40 Single airdodge changes nerfed Mewtwo too. Crazy how much of an impact changing system mechanics has on character viability
Not really crazy tbh,in fact,It's perfectly normal as characters get affected by game mechanics differently
As a cloud main, i would love to get maybe one or two more buffs to get him on borderline top, but he’s really solid overall and have a very good matchup spread
One thing they could do is decrease endlag on blade beam
If you main Cloud and you want him to get buffs, then that means you are not a good Cloud main. I'm sorry to assert my opinion this way, I main Cloud myself and I believe that he's perfect as is. He's very good yet not ridiculous. My wins (offline) feel deserved and rewarding. Wanting him to get buffed for the sake of being top tier rather than actually needing it is quite ignorant and rather greedy of you.
@@Azatosu God damn bro you could’ve just said “Nah he’s balanced and rewarding as he is”😂
@@nanaakuoko9211 yeah he didn't need to rant like that
I just want a normal frame 7 grab and a N-air that hits people in a short hop. A more consistent falling up air would be nice as well.
He's pretty damn good.
Spargo shows that off well
Cloud is an awesome character in smash bros and my favourite character in final fantasy and gaming period. The buster sword is so iconic in gaming, I’m a cloud main as he is such a great character
Cloud is pretty good offline! Also, he’s just so cool
A great thing about Cloud's climhazzcide is that it takes the opponent out _first_. A really saucy way to end a mutual last-stock situation, particuarly when you're at a large percentage deficit.
lmao, can't tell you how many people i have done that to when they get gready for the edge guard on last stock, or when i miss an edgeguard, they recover low and i just fucking yeet it
mostly only when below the ledge though. when above the legde, this is not guaranteed
@@cj_ocean true, people are more confident to just airdodge on stage if you go for it to high
cloud is my favourite video game character of all time. he has given me so many good memories both in ff7 and competing in tournaments with him. I will always main cloud even if Nintendo nerf him into oblivion.
Amen brother. Cloud mains' where it's at
Same for me except with Ness
You should do these with the entire cast I would love to see a breakdown on each character like this
I just wish Cloud's nair could reach to the full extent of his sword, giving him enough range to hit someone from a rising short up, like most other characters. Or make one of his throws to combo in early percents. Or mabye, just maybe, make his grab as fast everyone else's grab so we can have more options without bringing back Smash 4 Cloud.
Yeah but at least his nair in this one is little bit more damage than Sm4sh
smash 4 was my prime time...before sephitos showed up
These FF7 remixes in the background are so fire
Nintendo should buff the range on Cloud's n-air, obviously not to the level of his ridiculous Smash 4 version but the fact that the hitbox does not cover the entirety of his sword is not fair, all the triangle end of the sword is naked making the particle effect deceiving the actual extent of the move and i don't believe that was intentional.
Also Fun fact: in Smash 4 the hitbox had the same problem but no one complaint back then because the move was busted.
It's fair enough
I appreciate the inclusion of the hitbox data in these character analysis videos!! Miss seeing your facecam though, haha! Always love your stuff LarryLurr!
The fact that I just started picking up Cloud yesterday & this video comes up. Lol I love this guy 💕
the M2K clip LOL
Cloud is balanced and is very good!I hate fighting him, but he's a very honest fighter.
Agreed
Yeah with the exception recovery he does everything pretty well.
Why do u hate fighting him?
Fax
@@Espurna01 prob up b out of shield, and good aerials
*Larry's wife leave him*
Larry: dammit
Feels weird not seeing his face and the occasional chat cameo :( but still love to see a dedicated video not made on stream! Keep up the daily uploads and love the content!
Cloud was the only character to have his landing lag increased from Smash 4
And Bayo
I admire how balanced he is now. But I would have prefered if he still had all the combos (which was much more fun) with just a lot less reward.
Define "less reward"
@@captainmega6310 Either slightly less damage or making it more difficult to kill-confirm off of so many different interactions.
This coming from Sephiroth makes me wonder many things, but fully agreed.
I found actually playing neutral more fun then whatever that crap was last game. That's just me
Yo that "ahead on our way" theme so gooooood T^T love it
Cloud is just one of those characters that just feels good to play. I think if they just made up air's hit box lower so it can hit opponents on the ground more easily that would be huge for him. And maybe increase the length of limit to 30 seconds but that's never going to happen.
I think the up air should be able to hit taller characters but not characters like pichu, Kirby, and Jiggs lol
This ×10. He's not bad (I'd say better then half the cast), but I'd love to see him get a tiny bit of love just to smooth out the few places he feels clunky.
the only buff Cloud needs in my opinion is his grab, there is no reason to be below the average in speed, especially since he can't combo in any way with it, it should be better to be at par with the averange so he have that extra option.
@@nicolasvillasecaali7662 I also think that would be enough. Like I love the character, so I'm bias, but I play at around 8m gsp, and watch every Spargo tourney, and it's hard for me to say he (and probably half the cast) wouldn't benefit from a little nudge. At my tier people just hold shield like crazy, because even if I spam B-air it won't break it, and it's only a matter of time before my spacing is off enough to punish. And the rotating tomahawk Larry demonstrated is an absolute trash option for a long list of reasons 😅. Another idea for a buff would be to make it harder for people to fall out of his specials. Even Spargo dies a couple times a tournament to someone falling out of U-spec, Side-special, limit neutral special, etc., and then punishing it since you still can't move 🤦♂️
I have been thinking of trying out Cloud, this video gave me more reasons and motivation to do so!
Everyone has played Cloud at least once. You should definitely attempt picking him up. He's quite frankly a very rudimentary character. It took me a week to be proficient with him.
Yes join the cloud mains he is gud character
As a cloud main I’ll tell you you’d be better off playing roy. You basically have limit side b all game long. Faster, stronger. Better combo games and a consistent and easy kill confirm. They nerfed cloud too hard and idc what results he gets he sucks compared to sm4sh cloud.
For bair parry reads, you can mix up with cross-slash to rack up damage since they'll drop shield.
Always refreshing to see Cloud content.
thx ill remember that when i play a cloud on elite, those bastards are tricky
That Mew2King clip was fucking hilarious
Every time I see Cloud in Smash, I'm reminded of M2K's demonstration of his nerfs in Ultimate. Specifically the time he flung his lanyard around in a tiny circle, lol.
Please Sakurai. One more patch with Cloud buffs.
Really like this type of content. Well done.
11:30 I forgot which Cloud player was talking about this, but they said it was straight up unfair that Roy side B kills earlier than Cloud side B with limit
It is considering how hard you have to work for that limit when it lasts only 15 seconds.
Didn't even know that. Man Roy's kinda busted in this game ngl
Roy's specials are all superior to Clouds limit specials . Fact.
@@TheKejka13 no. Only side b
@@TheKejka13 and even then I could argue that even tho roy's side b kills earlier, limit cross slash woulf still be a better move bc it does more damage, is safe, bigger and has invinsibility frames
FUN LARRY FACT: Larry still hasn’t beaten Mario Odyssey
Neither have I
@@blueheart9873 how it takes 30 minutes
I don't even have the game
Didn't even buy that shit lol
@@chasesigler9885 Joy Con drift pissed me off too much
I enjoy these commentary videos. I still struggle to play as Cloud cause I just can't recover with him, but it's cool to see Spargo prove the character can be good.
Cloud was buffed when Byleth was released in patch 7.0. It was a notable patch because Young Link and Toon Link were also buffed.
acting like young link and toon link getting buffed was an important historical event
Larry videos just keep getting better and better!
Loved this format, please do one on Marthcina 🥺
cloud is such a saucy character in the right hands but jesus whenever i see one on quickplay they're 100% going to mash that b button and make my day miserable
cause your in that bracket of players that are shiiiiiiit at the game, elite clouds don't do that
yes they do lol climbhazzard spam is like 90% of elite clouds
@@Nowel22222 tbh those are clouds that are barely in elite smash tho, im talking about 9 mil and up
@@Nowel22222 you are correct tho
Arena is better than Quickplay
Camless voiceover Larry Lurr, nice. The editing godly, transitions are amazing and very good overall video. I am hoping that the Meta Knight one is this good, yes no maybe so. MK b meta.
Dope video bro!!
3:21 Also, the limit versions of all his specials stale along with the regular versions. Changing this would make Cloud much better in Ultimate.
OMG YESSSSSS limit climhazzard would be sooooo reliable as a kill option like that. For realsies
One key buff you missed was that manually charging limit is faster, going from 400 frames for a full charge to 335. That combined with limit only requiring 150% damage dealt for a full charge (as opposed to 250% in Smash 4) makes limit much more expendable and faster to obtain than before.
19:08 THANK YOU. So many people say "his combo game isn't that good" and just ignore his amazing mobility and range that allows him to hold advantage, even if his consecutive hits aren't necessarily "true" combos. His damage output is also excellent, with most of his commonly used attacks doing 15% or more to compensate for not being a combo focused character. So when he does hold advantage, you're going to be severely hurting or dead by the end of it. Awesome video, would love to see more in this format.
he went from a menace to an amazing character (not in teir lists but in the fun factor)
I will never drop cloud, the tech and play style just feels so good play
Dude it’s so fun to play him even though I main sephiroth, terry and chrom.
@@mattmihnuk4980 Very interesting line-up.
I main Falcon, Cloud and even though I am really bad with him: Wolf
Seriously. Even though my Dark Pit and Terry are better, there's just something about Cloud thats fun
Agreed
Awesome vid as always, Larry! What remix of Let The Battle Begin was playing around the 20:25 mark? That shit SLAPPED.
Thanks for explaining everything about cloud he got Nerf when I start playing ultimate the first time when the game came out. And it was so weird that clouds his hitbox it was like that
Wifi Cloud be like: 凶 凶 凶
Yeah👀
I love killing with his F-Smash. Smash 4 Cloud was scary! That limit charge always forced you to approach/act first. Specially with no directional air dodges, once he got limit and you're at kill percent... 😫
Wario in ultimate reminds me of Sm4sh Cloud a bit. Crazy nair and up air that lead into each other, great neutral, great kill power and confirms, and an illegally good kill move that you can use once it's charged. Up air down b are kill confirms for them both. Main differences is Wario can't charge waft with a button input, and his other specials stay the same. Also Wario has a better recovery and worse range than Sm4sh Cloud.
I think the most annoying thing about climhazzard is that since cloud always moves an inch forward when starting the move, when reversing it out of shield you actually have less range because Cloud scoots forwards a bit BEFORE turning around.
Blade beam actually got buffed because it wasn’t transcendent. I don’t quite remember if the kill power changed, but it’s better in ult. Also, for finishing touch, the knock back it dealt was based on fall speed, not weight. It does definitely kill slightly less early tho
So it kills later on fastfallers and kills earlier on floaty characters?
@@eaa1338 In Sm4sh, yeah
cool video, i like how you teach a little what to use and abuse, could you do that for your starfox team :)?
14:05 *A great example of why Cloud is better online*
I like this type of content. The previous videos just seemed like recycled twitch vods. Some editing and some dedicated recording time can really improve the experience.
He’s still great and well-rounded as is, but I still think some of his hitboxes should be buffed. The “triangle” tip of his sword doesn’t have a hitbox on many moves as if the sword was literally just a rectangle.
Don't be ridiculous, Cloud is perfectly fine the way he is. Cloud needing buffs is nothing more than balderdash.
@@Azatosu i don’t think I’m being ridiculous I’m not calling for ludicrous buffs. Besides I don’t even play Cloud so I really don’t care.
Most of his attacks do cover the entire sword and are overall quite generous. The notable exceptions would be neutral air, and down air's late hitbox, which makes sense since it's a lingering hit. The only one I could see being buffed is neutral air since the animation kind of lies to the player and the tip of the sword will miss for no reason. In smash 4 this was also true but the move was so much larger due to the different animation that no one cared. If they added a small extra hitbox at the end of nair I would be fine with that but he doesn't need anymore than that IMO.
@@Logan17258 Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Perhaps "many" was not the correct word, but a few moves (indeed including N-Air) have misleading visual representation for the tip of the sword.
@@Logan17258 finally someone address this, thank you good sir.
You should do one of these videos on greninja, I feel like smash fans have Pokémon fatigue but that character is top tier his combos are just very complex.
As a cloud main this does put a smile on my first.
17:30 The thing I hate the most about Online is when it does lag that badly it always seems like the other person isn't affected.
it just means they practice playing with their router being actively chewed on by their dog
It seems like everyone and their mother was thinking about trying cloud when this video dropped.
Larry might have powers...
7:53 Mario: F o r w a r d A i r
I have a huge problem with Cloud in Ultimate. It’s that I hadn’t played him sooner. Because if I had, I’d know what it feels like to play a character that’s bad. And by bad, I mean Michael Jackson bad.
Can’t tell if I like the character? Let’s put it this way. Cloud should pack his bags and leave Ultimate. Because he should be fighting in the finest games in the world. Just not any world I live in.
In conclusion.. Cloud’s eh
Huh 😶
Wtf was this comment ahah
Lmao loved this comment. If you know, you know.
@@CloudStrifeFF7 first person who knew the reference 😂
I agree with just about everything said here, though you did forget about arguably the most important buff in patch 7.0, which was that they made Limit Meter charge faster by about a second when using down-b.
I've played a lot of Cloud in this game, and I love the way they made him more threatening in that patch; it felt like he could struggle to get kills sometimes before that point, which just feels wrong with that sword he's using, lol.
At this point, he's probably a lower high-tier character, though I could see him needing one more patch to stay there as time goes by.
Literally thought the end was slowmo editing effects for drama lmao
My man didn’t even have a lag switch he had that .5 speed switch
5:00 I know this is supposed to show Sparg0 doing well, but he lost this game (to a suicide dair) then got JV3’d the next game
That was a brutal loss
LEORIOOO
They should’ve gave bayonetta the same treatment they gave cloud. They kept clouds game plan in tact while also getting rid of the annoying things that made cloud hard to play against. They should’ve kept bayonetta’s ladder combos that are potent by changing the angle of up air and make it send actually up and making her downwards afterburner kick also send up so it can more reliably combo into things like up b. I agree with all the other changes they made to bayo though. (I would appreciate her up b snapping the ledge but I get why it doesn’t)
Bayonetta is such a difficult character to balance because I feel like there’s no in the middle with her. Either her stuff works and she’s top tier or her stuff doesn’t work and she’s bad. Cloud’s problem wasn’t his design so he could be balanced more while keeping his playstyle from 4. A lot of people hated Bayonetta in 4. I don’t think any character in Smash has gotten as much hate as she did and for good reason: she killed the game. The last thing the devs wanted to do is have people bitching about Bayonetta again so they gutted her
Her stuff still works but instead of killing off the top she now kills off the sides
Spargo was playing Pyra/Mythra at Riptide 2021 and down 2 games, but switched back to Cloud and got the job done to make top 8.
Would you consider doing one of these for Bayo too? As someone who didn't play as much Smash4 I'm curious as to why she's considered low-mid tier now but broken in 4. (If you already have one I apologise, I must have missed it)
There’s one thing that i don’t see much when people talk about cloud is his good defensive game. I mean he can litteraly camp banjo with limit charge. And that’s a thing that kinda separates cloud from other swordies. Except that, i don’t have much to say. Maybe that cloud isn’t top 5 online but he does get better
I think the only bad thing is his recovery but once it gets amplified it’s not so bad, overall he is solid and kinda has a bit of everything (a projectile, good melee attacks,good range, decent recovery and a better one with limit)
11:59 larry you might wanna look up the definition for secret
True
I think that cloud is a solid high tier.
He is a pretty fast swordie with a lot of range, does a lot of damage per hit, has a really good oos, has an amazing dash attack that kills, is a decent juggler and he’s really good at ledgetrapping.
And with limit he becomes faster, gets an up-b that almost goes as far as lucas’ up-b and the kill power on all his specials get increased.
Wait how come when he transitioned to elite smash it didn’t show pyra/mythra in the elite smash character select screen was this pre recorded had to be that’s amazing Larry has so much dedication and love for this game
1:35 aww m2k
Looking back after the latest patch:
Cloud's "worst move" got much better. Finishing touch has less startup, meaning you can use it as a finisher from up tilt and from a jab lock.
ThunderCloud Strife.
Finishing Touch is still unfairly terrible tho, it needs to be either faster or stronger.
Also actual slowest normal grab in the game, at frame 9 standing and 12 from dash
Finishing touch should do more damage, however, other than that, it has no issues.
@@Azatosu its way too slow, extremely hard to confirm.
Or needs the wind box fixed (so it isn't most likely to save your opponent), or needs armor (maybe like Byleth D-special).
@@Azatosu naw then it's gonna why use cross slash yall thinking to simple just like these patches
all they have to do is make it a utility move like limit up b make Finishing Touch a shieldbreaker move like Lucina NB & byleth down smash uncharge (both) so it's a reason for the 1% & having the worse grab while also helping him from people shield turtling.
a one use shieldbreaker that kills if u don't kill at the right % it does 1% limit is gone & still laggy af wiffing
I know it might be weird but can you talk about Pit? Between the gimping arrows, the killing at 50 and suprisingly good combo game, he's way less than honest
Kola is also nice as hell with Cloud
When you were talking about being really good at holding advantage but not fantastic combo game it reminded me of mythra a bit
She has a much much combo game than cloud by far though. Even pyra has better things going for her.
Mythra is very frame trap heavy. So yeah I know what ya mean
I think the only nerfs he needed was his nair and his limit. It would be cool if his limit was like jokers arense but probably not anytime soon gonna happen. Sometimes his limit doesn't kill at 100 percent it depends how closer to the edge of the stage the opponent is. But I still play him because I played all the final fantasy games
10:14 the full combo wouldn’t have killed there even with bad DI (it probably would kill if you were at 145% or something).
I wished that they fixed his moves (n-air, d-air, jab, up-b) so people at least won’t fall out of his moves and also buffed his other moves (b-air, up-air, sourspot f-tilt, up-tilt, up-smash, dash attack, magnet and grab) to make him less frustrating to play with.
Larry needs 100k he’s the boy
What’s spargo sayin about finishing touch now it was buffed
Really missin the Larry cam rn
First off, good music selection. Now for some feedback:
* You mentioned Cloud can't out-range as well as in Smash 4 especially compared to Roy, Chrom, and Ike. However, Roy and Chrom have a smaller blade than Cloud. Furthermore, I assert Ike is an upper-mid tier character due to several of his own weaknesses.
* I firmly agree Cloud is upper A-Tier.
* On top of his contrast to Chrom and Roy, what does Cloud have? A projectile, an anti-air anti-approach Cross Slash, perhaps the best Up B OoS in the game, and forces the opponent to approach via Limit Charge.
* Not only do his specials give him exceptional utility, but Cross Slash itself doles out roughly 20% damage per hit. It's much easier to setup than conventional combos without the worry of being dropped. On this merit alone, Cloud has one of the better damage-building games in Smash.
Overall, I do feel Cloud has the chance to grow and improve in the current meta especially now that offline tournaments are returning. He'll never be as bonkers as he was in Smash 4 nor does he need to. In a meta that's far more conservative and allows for growth without overpowering characters gatekeeping the rest of the roster, Cloud's overall toolkit makes him a fantastic choice for players of any skill level.
Moreover, I firmly believe he lacks serious losing matchups outside of Pikachu and Pichu.
As a cloud main I can say with 100% certainty that his up smash is OP af. Especially at edge guarding because people don't expect it to be fast enough to hit them in the frames their vulnerable getting up from ledge, or catch them when they try to jump instead of roll. If your familiar with sonics smash 4 run slide + up smash, then you'll be at home using clouds up smash as a surprise spike (not nearly as effective at sliding, but not hard to get into the rhythm of it either.)
As for things I wish for them to fix with cloud, as he does still need fixing, would be his hit registration on up and forward air. (I don't want smash 4 up air, but I also think it whiffs waaay more then it should, and forward just doesn't feel like it connects at times from the top of the swing.) Also I think his slide should connect more at edge guarding, because sephiroth has the same slide but feels like it connects more.
I hate fighting clouds so much but honestly I think he could do with limit crossslash killing a tiny but earlier and finishing touch killing way earlier
I just wanna clarify that they nerfed lcs and buffed limit Climbhazzard and Finishing Touch (esp. grounded) and they also made dash attack go from pathetic noodle to Wario 2.0
Spargo and Kola the only ones carrying him now.
Samus situation when
I actually just picked up cloud recently, and man they gutted his neutral air. Obviously for good reason, but I dont know what it could even used for. Any time I think i find something, I realize that another arial serves that purpose better
I literally use for air to air moments simply because its decently fast.
@@alfonsovelazquez9565 It hits above him the quickest so maybe use it over up air after landing utilt, otherwise its best to space with bair
Clouds Neutral b camping on bowser can be kinda broken
Should do bayo and diddy next the smash 4 top tiers
There's a lot of these cases where the s4 top tiers get overlooked and someone comes in to show they're not even that bad (Sparg0 Cloud, Marss ZSS, Dabuz Rosa, etc)
Honestly non limit cross slash is my favorite move in the game
Do a video on yoshi next :)
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even without watching the video: Cloud the final form for Mario players (just look at Zenyou). Same game plan/play style, but you sacrifice grab combos and flood for a massive disjoint, limit, and kill power
I recently have tried to pick up olimar could you talk about him in a video I’d love to hear your thoughts
I feel sorry for you
@@5hyguy42 yeah me too but here we are