About six months ago I bought my wife a 2019 Forrester Sport, and we loved it, my ‘07 Nissan Versa had a terminal issue, so I just today grabbed a 2020 Outback Onyx XT, wow! That thing is really AWESOME!
I got the onyx, and really like it, it doesnt seam to have barely any turbo lag at all, compared to the 2005 Baja turbo I used to have, but it is really fast, I’m pissing off my wife with the speed this thing has, also this new global platform, really adds handling without body roll?
I just drove the onyx XT to Vegas with my wife, it spoils you, I don’t even want to drive her Forrester Sport any more, the turbo gives you real quickness, you’ll love it! That new fabric on the onyx edition is much nicer than I imagined, but if your getting the touring that new tan leather looks so nice!
Now I just got the outback, my wife’s 2019 Forrester Sport has been getting 33-34 actual mpg, but I just drove back to work with my 2020 onyx XT, and I was averaging about 27.9 mpg, that turbo sucks fuel when you use it?
@@TheBandit59 dear god 33 - 34?!?! Is that accurate? Is she driving mainly flat roads? I've been hearing avg 29mpg but if what you're saying is true the forester sport sounds awesome!! It's still a fun car I hope?
I actually figured the mileage by dividing the mileage and added fuel, but my wife says in nuts , and it’s a bit less like 32 highway, I don’t drive her car often, but that’s what I thought it was, she drives it every day ?
I liked the way the Outback drives, but I'm getting a Forester. I like the headroom for my Dood, I think the center console has a little more storage capacity, and I prefer a naturally aspirated engine.
I bought the Forester, 2019, and am quite happy with it. It is my second Forester. The Outback I just heard is 8” longer so it wouldn’t fit in my garage. Lastly the pricing of the Outback is several hundred dollars more. I average 28 mpg.
I saw that, too?it’s the fastest car I’ve ever owned, it’s hard to stay out of the turbo, my wife keeps telling me I’m going to get tickets, it’s really fun to drive, I just went back to work, that’s 900 miles, and I averaged 27.9 mpg, so I guess a lead foot on the turbo is bad? My wife drives that 2019 Forrester Sport, and constantly gets 33-34 mpg. I traded in a 2019 Crosstrek towards this 2020 onyx XT, and it was getting a few mpg more than it shows? But that’s a smaller engine I believe?The XT really flys, but you pay in mpg for the speed?It definitely doesn’t get the mpg of the 2.5 Forrester, especially if you go to the fun zone?
I've owned two Outback wagons, two Outback sedans, a DL wagon and now a Crosstrek. I wouldn't buy a Forrester because they have worse gas mileage than the Crosstrek, I'm averaging 30-34, similar in almost everything except my Crosstrek has 1 1/2 inches more of clearance. The Forester, quite simply, is marketing to the individual the MUST have a SUV vehicle. The Outback wagon is now more expensive than ever! My first one was new at $22,500 and you couldn't get that car for less than $35,000 now. The best Subaru I've ever owned is a 2002 Outback VDC Sedan, 6 cylinder boxer engine w/ 220 hp. Everything on it, moon roof, heated wipers seats and mirrors, 11 speaker MacIntosh stereo system pushing 200 watts, spoiler, leather interior, REAL carpet (not the felt that they put in now that ruffles up when you vacuum it) and Weather Band radio that used to be standard equipment. I purchased it in 2007 at five years old and only 26,000 miles-*-it now has 239,000 miles and looks and runs like new!! No kidding. They don't make em like that anymore and it's very sad.
I would buy the 2020 Subaru Outback. Because we test drove both a 2019 Subaru Forester and 2020 Subaru Outback. The Forester was nice too. But we ended up getting the 2020 Outback XT Onyx edition. Because we love the interior more also the ride feels smoother also we love that the Outback has the turbo engine. Because when we test drove the 2019 Forester and the 2020 Outback with the 2.5 engine it felt under power. And we live in a hills of South Carolina. So if we would get gotta the 2.5 it would had a very hard time getting up the hills and up in our big driveway. So having the extra power of the 2.4 Turbo engine really hopes us. Also we love the look at the new 2020 Outback better then the Forester.
I'm sold on all of the Subaru models. I have a,2018 Impreza 5 door. It's our every day commuter. A great little car. We also have the 2020 Forester. We are very pleased with both cars. People seem to talk down in the CVT. We have no issues with it. In the past, we had 2 kids and. Both with CVTs, and all sorts of problems. Will never purchase another Nissan. Oh, forgot to mentiin. The Forester is made in Japan and the Outback is made here in the USA. That may play into the pricing.
Terrific review and comparison--I always enjoy your presentations. Unfortunately, I live in the desert Southwest (Scottsdale, AZ) so I can't come buy a car from you. I will likely be choosing between a Forester or Outback if I go Subaru, and possibly a RAV4 Prime when it comes out--currently have an 06 Toyota Sequoia with nearly 200,000 miles on it--want to downsize for fuel efficiency but still have a car that will suit my lifestyle (getting to the mountains for kayaking, canoeing, fishing (note: do not take this to mean I actually catch fish . . . ) and hiking). Question: are you hearing from customers re: their real life gas mileage with the turbo engine? Matt Moran reviewed the Onyx XT and liked it but over 116 miles he only got 18.5 mpg--now, he may have been flooring it, who knows, but he was surprised at the mileage. I did some researching online and read some forum posts, and I'd say only 20-25% of the folk out there with the turbo engine are getting the mileage estimates at least around town with the balance getting less, and sometimes a LOT less in terms of mileage. Would love to have the extra power of the turbo but will get the 2.5 if the mileage penalty is too severe.
We have a dedicated video to the Outback XT, check it out. I’m averaging 25 in mixed mountain driving with a lot of hills, but I drive it gently. If you drive it like a performance car then you’re going to get fuel economy like a performance car. Test drive both engines, you might be pleasantly surprised by the power of the base engine and you’ll definitely drive past more gas stations.
I love my Subaru Crosstrek but if I was buying an SUV in this size and price range today I’d get a RAV hybrid. Subaru needs a hybrid Forester and Outback.
too bad you couldn't swap Toyota's Rav4 hybrid engine with more power and greater gas efficiency in the Forester or Subaru's own 2.4 turbo engine to have a more powerful engine with better performance.
I'm debating on a forester limited or an outback onyx. I have a legacy 3.6r and love it. Plan on keeping till it makes no sense to fix it anymore. Well my wifes matrix is on its last leg but she really likes subarus now that I have had one but really cant decide on which one for her. Her car only has 140hp anyway so I dont think the power will matter to her. I'm more or less looking for a comfortable, more reliable, easy to work on car.
Well done! So are any Subaru models still built in the mother country like my Acura? Nice tip on the 29er load scheme. It really matters being able to safeguard our expensive 2 wheelers.
Until you break your femur in five places, then you hang your bike on hooks in the garage and remember the good old days. Subaru builds Crosstrek, Forester, BRZ, WRX/STi in Gunma, Japan. All the rest are built in Lafayette, Indiana.
Planet Subaru that was the thing that bugged me the most? My wife’s Forrester said made in Japan, my new outback said engine and transmission made in japan , assembled in USA? I wonder if we’ll see a difference?
Planet Subaru yeah, but years of Japanese quality control, that seem To make a difference over American made cars is kind of a sore spot for me, on one hand , I’d rather buy American, so the assembled in Indiana seemed nice, on the other hand, years of awesome quality ,buying Japanese cars seems to pay off in less issues with the vehicle, I’ve broken down and bought an American car a few times, and really regretted it? I’m convinced that every made in Japan car I’ve had has been superior, I’ve even had electrical issues with a German car, that many others did to?So, we’ll see if , at lease in two cars it pans out? My wife’s 2019 Forrester-Japan, my 2020 Onyx XT- Indiana?thanks for the replies, and a great video? Donn
Why is Dual X-Mode avaible on the Forester Sport, Limited, and Touring trims, BUT only on the Outback Onyx trim? If the Outback costs more than the Forester then why not also have it available on the Limited and Touring trims?
We haven't had the chance to put the new dual X-Mode through its paces, but gosh the "regular" X-Mode is like some space alien traction device that hardly left us wanting for anything more. You would probably need to be doing some really serious off-roading to need the additional capability, and maybe Subaru figured the Limited and Touring trims were so nice that most owners wouldn't subject those vehicles to that kind of punishment?
@@PlanetSubaruBoston I had this same thought! I've ordered a 2020 Outback Touring because I don't need turbo power or excitement! But there is a 2020 Forester Touring coming in (same color - white w/saddle tan or java brown in the case of the Outback) and I've been torn between the two. Part of that indecision is the dual X-Mode in the Forester so your response is interesting. I am only concerned about snow in the Northeast, not traveling off-road. Your opinion is that the single mode is plenty for most situations? Also, I use the tilt function on my sun/moon roof more than the slide and the Forester doesn't tilt, correct? One other small, picky thing...the new Forester doesn't have chrome door handles and it used to! Any thoughts on why Subaru did that? Thanks!
If people buy Subaru for driving in snow, why they would not have option to have heated wheel and heated back seats for basic model ? Here in Canadahalf year snow on ground. Nobody cares too much about moonroof, but only reliable and warm car is needed for winter. .
All those features add weight, cost, and complexity, so Subaru offers a variety of models and configurations to serve a wide audience. Lots of people own Subarus in warmer climates and don’t require the cold weather features...
The Colorado Springs Dealer Biggest in the world. We were second in Denver, once I sold with no internet 45 1/2 new Subaru’s Still the record at automation west golden. Beat that.
45 in a month is a lot of cars for one person to sell, but perhaps the greater accomplishment was selling half a Subaru...seems like all of our customers want the whole car!
Thanks, this is an unexpected expression of empathy on CZcams. We get a lot comments like' "it looks you shot this video with a potato." ;) One result of the accident is that I have a lot more time to make videos with my potato! Be careful out there on the trails...
@@PlanetSubaruBoston That doesn't help anyone now, Why didn't they give the Forester, their #2 seller, the same options and engine that they just gave the Outback. I might have become a Subaru owner, but I can't wait till 2022. The Forester is the right-sized vehicle with great legroom and would have been great if Subaru had just put these options and optional engine in the Forester.
There is no way to order it like that, you would have to buy the grill and wheels from the parts department and switch them out. Fortunately the wheels are the same size so you could use the tires. Or you could use the second set of rims for a snow set.
@@michaelsadventures29 Here's what Subaru says in the owner manual: "The engine is designed to operate using unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 87 AKI (90 RON) or higher." There is no mention of any benefits associated with using a higher octane.
I have always wondered why subaru has 87 octane as what can be used In most of the cars. They are high compression engines and wouldn't 87 cause predetonation? Do you guys have an engineer i could talk to cause i really am interested in how that works? For example i drive a 2011 legacy with the ez36d engine. Has a compression of 10.5:1 and says I can use 87 octane no problem. However the tribeca with the same engine says premium is recommended. I drove my car on 87 for four years and found out that premium was recommended for the engine in other vehicles so I tried it. I refuse to put 87 in my car ever again. It runs so much better on 93 it is insane that they put 87 octane in the owners manual. Why subaru, it's the beefier engine, people already know they are paying more for gas so why not help it perform better and probably last longer?
Lane centering is standard on the 2020 Forester.
Good catch. We added a card to that segment of the video to clarify.
get the 2020 subaru forester sport
About six months ago I bought my wife a 2019 Forrester Sport, and we loved it, my ‘07 Nissan Versa had a terminal issue, so I just today grabbed a 2020 Outback Onyx XT, wow! That thing is really AWESOME!
How do you like the turbo engine? Small lag before the turbo kicks in? I am looking to get the limited or touring xt.
I got the onyx, and really like it, it doesnt seam to have barely any turbo lag at all, compared to the 2005 Baja turbo I used to have, but it is really fast, I’m pissing off my wife with the speed this thing has, also this new global platform, really adds handling without body roll?
Jeez what do you guys make 120k a year? How do you afford 60k in cars?
I just drove the onyx XT to Vegas with my wife, it spoils you, I don’t even want to
drive her Forrester Sport any more, the turbo gives you real quickness, you’ll love it! That new fabric on the onyx edition is much nicer than I imagined, but if your getting the touring that new tan leather looks so nice!
What kind of real world mpg are you getting? I'm looking to replace my Xterra that is killing me on gas
Now I just got the outback, my wife’s 2019 Forrester Sport has been getting 33-34 actual mpg, but I just drove back to work with my 2020 onyx XT, and I was averaging about 27.9 mpg, that turbo sucks fuel when you use it?
@@TheBandit59 dear god 33 - 34?!?! Is that accurate? Is she driving mainly flat roads? I've been hearing avg 29mpg but if what you're saying is true the forester sport sounds awesome!! It's still a fun car I hope?
I actually figured the mileage by dividing the mileage and added fuel, but my wife says in nuts , and it’s a bit less like 32 highway, I don’t drive her car often, but that’s what I thought it was, she drives it every day ?
But we’re talking turbo outback versus 2019 Forrester, non turbo?
I liked the way the Outback drives, but I'm getting a Forester. I like the headroom for my Dood, I think the center console has a little more storage capacity, and I prefer a naturally aspirated engine.
Dood as in labradoodle?
Goldendoodle
@@paulwalker8633 Aha. Dude would be a good name for that Dood
JUST BOUGHT THE FORESTER 2020 GREAT CAR
Love this subaru forester and i will choose it
I bought the Forester, 2019, and am quite happy with it. It is my second Forester. The Outback I just heard is 8” longer so it wouldn’t fit in my garage. Lastly the pricing of the Outback is several hundred dollars more. I average 28 mpg.
How’s the acceleration? On the vid reviews I watched, there was a delay in the acceleration that I see as a potential issue.
I saw that, too?it’s the fastest car I’ve ever owned, it’s hard to stay out of the turbo, my wife keeps telling me I’m going to get tickets, it’s really fun to drive, I just went back to work, that’s 900 miles, and I averaged 27.9 mpg, so I guess a lead foot on the turbo is bad? My wife drives that 2019 Forrester Sport, and constantly gets 33-34 mpg. I traded in a 2019 Crosstrek towards this 2020 onyx XT, and it was getting a few mpg more than it shows? But that’s a smaller engine I believe?The XT really flys, but you pay in mpg for the speed?It definitely doesn’t get the mpg of the 2.5 Forrester, especially if you go to the fun zone?
Good choice. Forester is also made in Japan. Outback is indiana made.
Your reviews on SUBARU are very good-
I hope to get in one as soon as my lease is up on VW.....
I chose the Premium model Forester. Price had a lot to do in my decision. Both vehicles are very good.
Really impressed by the new outback and the new engine
I've owned two Outback wagons, two Outback sedans, a DL wagon and now a Crosstrek. I wouldn't buy a Forrester because they have worse gas mileage than the Crosstrek, I'm averaging 30-34, similar in almost everything except my Crosstrek has 1 1/2 inches more of clearance. The Forester, quite simply, is marketing to the individual the MUST have a SUV vehicle. The Outback wagon is now more expensive than ever! My first one was new at $22,500 and you couldn't get that car for less than $35,000 now. The best Subaru I've ever owned is a 2002 Outback VDC Sedan, 6 cylinder boxer engine w/ 220 hp. Everything on it, moon roof, heated wipers seats and mirrors, 11 speaker MacIntosh stereo system pushing 200 watts, spoiler, leather interior, REAL carpet (not the felt that they put in now that ruffles up when you vacuum it) and Weather Band radio that used to be standard equipment. I purchased it in 2007 at five years old and only 26,000 miles-*-it now has 239,000 miles and looks and runs like new!! No kidding. They don't make em like that anymore and it's very sad.
Forester is made in Japan. People prefer that to made in Indiana
I would buy the 2020 Subaru Outback. Because we test drove both a 2019 Subaru Forester and 2020 Subaru Outback. The Forester was nice too. But we ended up getting the 2020 Outback XT Onyx edition. Because we love the interior more also the ride feels smoother also we love that the Outback has the turbo engine. Because when we test drove the 2019 Forester and the 2020 Outback with the 2.5 engine it felt under power. And we live in a hills of South Carolina. So if we would get gotta the 2.5 it would had a very hard time getting up the hills and up in our big driveway. So having the extra power of the 2.4 Turbo engine really hopes us. Also we love the look at the new 2020 Outback better then the Forester.
I'm sold on all of the Subaru models. I have a,2018 Impreza 5 door. It's our every day commuter. A great little car. We also have the 2020 Forester. We are very pleased with both cars. People seem to talk down in the CVT. We have no issues with it. In the past, we had 2 kids and. Both with CVTs, and all sorts of problems. Will never purchase another Nissan. Oh, forgot to mentiin. The Forester is made in Japan and the Outback is made here in the USA. That may play into the pricing.
Well done review !
M'ENCANTA LA FORESTER 😍❤😘
Terrific review and comparison--I always enjoy your presentations. Unfortunately, I live in the desert Southwest (Scottsdale, AZ) so I can't come buy a car from you. I will likely be choosing between a Forester or Outback if I go Subaru, and possibly a RAV4 Prime when it comes out--currently have an 06 Toyota Sequoia with nearly 200,000 miles on it--want to downsize for fuel efficiency but still have a car that will suit my lifestyle (getting to the mountains for kayaking, canoeing, fishing (note: do not take this to mean I actually catch fish . . . ) and hiking). Question: are you hearing from customers re: their real life gas mileage with the turbo engine? Matt Moran reviewed the Onyx XT and liked it but over 116 miles he only got 18.5 mpg--now, he may have been flooring it, who knows, but he was surprised at the mileage. I did some researching online and read some forum posts, and I'd say only 20-25% of the folk out there with the turbo engine are getting the mileage estimates at least around town with the balance getting less, and sometimes a LOT less in terms of mileage. Would love to have the extra power of the turbo but will get the 2.5 if the mileage penalty is too severe.
We have a dedicated video to the Outback XT, check it out. I’m averaging 25 in mixed mountain driving with a lot of hills, but I drive it gently. If you drive it like a performance car then you’re going to get fuel economy like a performance car. Test drive both engines, you might be pleasantly surprised by the power of the base engine and you’ll definitely drive past more gas stations.
I love my Subaru Crosstrek but if I was buying an SUV in this size and price range today I’d get a RAV hybrid. Subaru needs a hybrid Forester and Outback.
too bad you couldn't swap Toyota's Rav4 hybrid engine with more power and greater gas efficiency in the Forester or Subaru's own 2.4 turbo engine to have a more powerful engine with better performance.
forestor looks nicer thats just my opinion
I'm debating on a forester limited or an outback onyx. I have a legacy 3.6r and love it. Plan on keeping till it makes no sense to fix it anymore. Well my wifes matrix is on its last leg but she really likes subarus now that I have had one but really cant decide on which one for her. Her car only has 140hp anyway so I dont think the power will matter to her. I'm more or less looking for a comfortable, more reliable, easy to work on car.
I really cannot stand the infotainment of the outback though. That is a real turn off for it
You’re crazy 😁
Nice car,now I have 2018 subaru forester black 4drive
I like them both but I'm more of an Outback fan maybe a little bit because I've owed 2 Outbacks
Well done! So are any Subaru models still built in the mother country like my Acura? Nice tip on the 29er load scheme. It really matters being able to safeguard our expensive 2 wheelers.
Until you break your femur in five places, then you hang your bike on hooks in the garage and remember the good old days. Subaru builds Crosstrek, Forester, BRZ, WRX/STi in Gunma, Japan. All the rest are built in Lafayette, Indiana.
@@PlanetSubaruBoston I didn't know that was even possible. Sorry to hear about your injury. Big fan of Japan build. Thanks again!
Planet Subaru that was the thing that bugged me the most? My wife’s Forrester said made in Japan, my new outback said engine and transmission made in japan , assembled in USA? I wonder if we’ll see a difference?
Donn Greenwald No matter where cars are assembled, the parts come from all over the world nowadays. That’s the global supply chain.
Planet Subaru yeah, but years of Japanese quality control, that seem
To make a difference over American made cars is kind of a sore spot for me, on one hand , I’d rather buy American, so the assembled in Indiana seemed nice, on the other hand, years of awesome quality ,buying Japanese cars seems to pay off in less issues with the vehicle, I’ve broken down and bought an American car a few times, and really regretted it? I’m convinced that every made in Japan car I’ve had has been superior, I’ve even had electrical issues with a German car, that many others did to?So, we’ll see if , at lease in two cars it pans out? My wife’s 2019 Forrester-Japan, my 2020 Onyx XT- Indiana?thanks for the replies, and a great video? Donn
Why is Dual X-Mode avaible on the Forester Sport, Limited, and Touring trims, BUT only on the Outback Onyx trim? If the Outback costs more than the Forester then why not also have it available on the Limited and Touring trims?
We haven't had the chance to put the new dual X-Mode through its paces, but gosh the "regular" X-Mode is like some space alien traction device that hardly left us wanting for anything more. You would probably need to be doing some really serious off-roading to need the additional capability, and maybe Subaru figured the Limited and Touring trims were so nice that most owners wouldn't subject those vehicles to that kind of punishment?
@@PlanetSubaruBoston I had this same thought! I've ordered a 2020 Outback Touring because I don't need turbo power or excitement! But there is a 2020 Forester Touring coming in (same color - white w/saddle tan or java brown in the case of the Outback) and I've been torn between the two. Part of that indecision is the dual X-Mode in the Forester so your response is interesting. I am only concerned about snow in the Northeast, not traveling off-road. Your opinion is that the single mode is plenty for most situations? Also, I use the tilt function on my sun/moon roof more than the slide and the Forester doesn't tilt, correct? One other small, picky thing...the new Forester doesn't have chrome door handles and it used to! Any thoughts on why Subaru did that? Thanks!
If people buy Subaru for driving in snow, why they would not have option to have heated wheel and heated back seats for basic model ? Here in Canadahalf year snow on ground. Nobody cares too much about moonroof, but only reliable and warm car is needed for winter. .
All those features add weight, cost, and complexity, so Subaru offers a variety of models and configurations to serve a wide audience. Lots of people own Subarus in warmer climates and don’t require the cold weather features...
forester is the way to go. it’s made in Japan > outbacks made in indiana.
The Colorado Springs Dealer
Biggest in the world. We were second in Denver, once I sold with no internet 45 1/2 new Subaru’s Still the record at automation west golden.
Beat that.
45 in a month is a lot of cars for one person to sell, but perhaps the greater accomplishment was selling half a Subaru...seems like all of our customers want the whole car!
Sorry to hear about your career ending MTB injury.
Thanks, this is an unexpected expression of empathy on CZcams. We get a lot comments like' "it looks you shot this video with a potato." ;) One result of the accident is that I have a lot more time to make videos with my potato! Be careful out there on the trails...
I'm curious when the Forester will get that massive Outback screen... not that the current screen isn't really nice.
The next significant update on the Forester will happen for the 2022 model year, so not before then.
@@PlanetSubaruBoston That doesn't help anyone now, Why didn't they give the Forester, their #2 seller, the same options and engine that they just gave the Outback. I might have become a Subaru owner, but I can't wait till 2022. The Forester is the right-sized vehicle with great legroom and would have been great if Subaru had just put these options and optional engine in the Forester.
Forester
New outback front parking sensors?
Optional front camera, no beeping
Bendiciones Subaru el mejor carro que existe
If I buy the Touring XT, can I get the wheels and the front grill from the Onyx instead?
There is no way to order it like that, you would have to buy the grill and wheels from the parts department and switch them out. Fortunately the wheels are the same size so you could use the tires. Or you could use the second set of rims for a snow set.
Same idea we are thinking of doing black out a touring model. Told the black grill is in $300 + range and may go aftermarket on black wheels
@@craigshannon5687 and the sport grill is another option too
Is premium gas required for the turbo engine?
Not required or even recommended, but you can use it if you like.
My dealer recommended mid grade
@@michaelsadventures29 Here's what Subaru says in the owner manual: "The engine is designed to operate using unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 87 AKI (90 RON) or higher." There is no mention of any benefits associated with using a higher octane.
@@PlanetSubaruBoston my son got his Turbo Forester from Planet, 3 days before his 1st baby arrived. It is a nice car.
I have always wondered why subaru has 87 octane as what can be used In most of the cars. They are high compression engines and wouldn't 87 cause predetonation? Do you guys have an engineer i could talk to cause i really am interested in how that works? For example i drive a 2011 legacy with the ez36d engine. Has a compression of 10.5:1 and says I can use 87 octane no problem. However the tribeca with the same engine says premium is recommended. I drove my car on 87 for four years and found out that premium was recommended for the engine in other vehicles so I tried it. I refuse to put 87 in my car ever again. It runs so much better on 93 it is insane that they put 87 octane in the owners manual. Why subaru, it's the beefier engine, people already know they are paying more for gas so why not help it perform better and probably last longer?
Does anyone know if the Forrester has DRL LED like the Outbacks do?
Yep. I think they do.
We will by it again when Subaru will propose some Real engine...!
and a manual.