$25,000 SAILBOAT PRICE DROP! SHOULD WE BUY IT? EP 246 - Lady K Sailing
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- čas přidán 26. 09. 2023
- This week, leading up to the Annapolis Sailboat Show we look at a huge sailboat price drop on a Hylas 44 bluewater sailboat and talk about the boat market and where things stand today for people looking to buy a sailboat.
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Nice work Tim. A wise man once told me that if your worried about money don't buy a boat. ...lol. I do feel that right now you can get a serious ocean-going boat with good kit for $160 - $170 and two years ago you were hardly a player at $225,000.
From your mouth to my gods ears! I've enjoyed and been enriched by at least 20 of your vlogs so far, and I thank you for that.I'll be joining your patrons as soon as I can. as I trust not to be hand to mouth by the coming spring buying season. You're nailing this space. Well done.
Thanks for another great episode.
Would love to see an episode comparing blue water prices in North America to Europe and any pros and cons associated with both. Here in Australia the market is small reflecting our “small” population, for those of us looking to travel widely buying in another market is very attractive, more boat for the money spent and already in attractive cruising grounds.
Keep up the great work.
🤔 Your analysis of the the cost, psychology, and timing of the used market is always spot on. The narrative is thoughtful measured and incisive. I enjoy that you bring both a racing and a cruising perspective to the conversation which additionally provides a broad depth of knowledge. 👍 ✅
You are right Tim. Life is truly short, don't wait, go now.
Thank you for your informative videos
Mike
Toronto
Very informative channel. I’m just starting my sailboat journey and I’m watching your videos to learn all that I can. Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Welcome aboard! Thanks for watching!
I would recommend (worth 2 cents) taking a moisture meter and hammer when you check the boat out and do it before any moisture can freeze on the boat. Been down that price drop rabbit hole before. But there are always exceptions...you never know until you check it out.
Dude, I'm so happy to see you doing these videos. Awesome....
Hope I run into you in Annapolis. I owe you a beer- your advice helped alot with my decision to buy a boat, which I am currently living on in Deltaville for a while. No buyer's remorse. Go small, go simple, and will be going soon!
We’ll be in Annapolis. Looking forward to say hi. Keep up good work Tim.
Thank you, you're channel is so helpful.
For those of us who are wanting to start sailing and are land bound, what do you look for in a marina? Boat slips, anchorage and amenities such as showers and laundry. Also out hauling your boat?
K watched the video again and can't believe I didn't realize the mast for a ketch would intrude into the aft cabin somehow , now i'm thinking that is a great boat for a couple the only thing would be the electronics and other extras like a up to date life raft ect... for a hundred thousand that's alot of boat anyway
Hope to see you at the show!
Go small. Go simple. Go NOW. Great advice! 👍👏👏👏
The Hylas is a good boat with a great layout. I was looking last year and it was hard to find one for less than 150k.
Heyyy I love the channel,I just bought sold everything I owned to buy a sailboat to start sailing around the world :) thanks for the inspiration,just made my first CZcams video hahaha
As a 30 year broker i take some exception to your comments. A certain level of wow. So often i see boats drop huge because they failed its physical. I'm always amazed that you have so little respect for proper boats like Swan, Hallberg Rassey, Baltic, Shannon, etc. Boats that will out last any Beneteau, Hunter, Catalina. This Hylas might be super excellent and probably is. The idea a 1978 Hinckley is going to be worthless is absurd. A concourse Ferrari is still worth a fortune. A really nice Chevy GTO is potentially also.
Agree, but it’s a Pontiac GTO
Agree, 1979 Swan owner myself
Sweet! I'm currently saving for a future liveaboard.
So basically two weeks after the Annapolis boat show you think would be a good time to make an offer on some of these boats that are still hanging around.If I remember the travel lift up here in Connecticut didn't shut down until the first week of December. So that might give you another month to take a good hard look around to see if there's anything worth making an offer on.
That is a nice boat , for me if it were a ketch would really be interested .
Gorgeous boat but a 7' draft may be a bit limiting depending on where your cruising.
i like your angle. a show for the lower end market. i just watched the o'kelly review of the cannes boat show. quite amazing what the rich are buying. i'm somewhere in between. i liked your under $300k catamaran episode. any more catamaran shows coming soon?
I made an offer on a Tartan 37 last summer and didn’t get a counter. ended up buying a Westsail 32 for quite a bit less than the Tartan. I probably paid a bit on the high end even - but the guy I bought from put so much money into it over the past 15 years I don’t feel bad at all and I don’t plan to sell it until I can’t sail her anymore. [Im 45 now]
Another 2 cents on your desktop, I want to say how much I appreciate all the shopping. evaluating, backstories, history info you put out. You've motivated me to slip away from the desk I've been pilotng for the last forty yearts and go get some sea spray in my face. Mega boat kid since I was 10. Sabots, to Penguins, to Lido's and Lehmans, Hobies and Prindles, Catalinas, O'Days, Schocks, Columbias, Pearson, Islander, Tartans, Cals. Transpac on a K40, Newport to Ensenada Yacht Race, to Catalina. Got a chance to crew for a summer on the Goodwill with Ralph Larrabee before she went down while I was in high school. The toughest most heated races though were teens in Flying J's (before they became Interntional FJ's in the 80's)) on a Friday night. If it floated and had sails I'd be gone. (Can't tell I grew up in Newport west coast can you?). The scent of wet canvas, creosote and kelp, teak oil and resin always takes me back. Thanks Tim.
Wow! Go for it! You can do this! And thanks for watching 😄
Quite a few cheap sailboats down here near Keaton Beach, FL.
As always great content
I've been watching the market. It was full of boats 2mos ago and earlier and then they started getting sold and most of what is left is overpriced or in disrepair. We'll see what happens after the show and as people start wanting to be in the Caribbean. I suspect a lot of the boats in disrepair are going to get much cheaper or get so bad they won't be worth saving relative to a nicer boat for just a bit more money.
Good advice, thanks but I’m still kicking myself over the 39’ C&C centre cockpit, Landfall that I let slip away. It was for sale for $6000.USD just before covid started and was already in Panama. I flew down from Toronto to see her and she wasn’t in bad shape, some equipment was missing but generally she was all there but due to health issues I let her go. DEEP SIGH !
Thank you so much I love your show I still searching for my😂
The prices of boats are dropping and my work surveying has dropped off as well. Get ready for the economy to 💩 the bed.
Good episode. 👍
I Love it. Age does not deter me. This is a Hylas. Condition counts.
Sold.
I was just talking to my wife about this very topic. Been watching boat price drop massively, in some case 50%.
I am located in Rhode Island and own a 2007 Elan Impression 434. I beleive I am one of very few people in the US who own such a yacht. I love the boat and would love to see one of your crtiques. I beleive Elan is one of the upper echelon boat manufactures, but there is very little written about them. If you are ever in Rhode Island I would love to take you for a sail.
Recently I started watching sailing videos. But quickly became bored with the bikini bait and the every third show as a crisis channels. Then I found lady K. And after watching several random episodes, finally decided I was really enjoying your channel. So I went to the beginning and started watching. I’m 55 and longing to get back to the sea. I’m an avid scuba diver. And would love cruising the Caribbean. Kudos to the Crew of Lady K for setting sail on your dreams. My wife would never go for it though. She wants snow covered mountains. (We live in Texas)
Great advice
i wonder if she has a furling maon or not. there are pics showing both set ups
What a beautiful boat
I was looking at this boat earlier this week. It is in the northeast, winter is coming, they don't want to have it for another winter.
Funny you said what I did almost word for word. I typed it in first few seconds of the video.
This has been the most informative video in your series--great stuff!
No it's not , catamarans are not suffering this price drop at all .
@lady k sailing, great vid, I know your main ordinance is the US public, however I must ask, how do feel about doing something similar to this video topic, for the European market :P thx bud!
Sailboat sales are as strong as ever, at least in the Great Lakes. You provide one example of a price drop. This does not constitute a trend.
I agree. There are so many people going into the sport.
1984 Catalina 27 trade for Columbia 39 center cockpit? Thoughts about bare boat trade between these two?
It’s ALWAYS a buyers market. The only variable to that is the sellers ability to recognize reality. I only buy second hand race boats because (for light construction) they are often (not always) built and engineered correctly at great expense by a team of intelligent focused professionals. Mainly though because they are cheap! I have just commissioned a 17 yr old 30ft offshore race boat (lutra v1) for just over 1€k. Purchase price last October 20k , Will be cruising Canary Islands on her. At the time of buying her there was a laser for sale for 7k. The new Farr x2 which is not epoxy not carbon with keel issues is over 255k - good luck with that! If you’re experienced and know what you’re doing, you can save a lot of money and have a lot of fun 🎉
Nice information
Thanks for watching 😊
A very informative episode! Your insight is appreciated.
Has it got rotten decks? Water in the rudder? Is it delaminated? Is the keel falling of? Before you throw in 80k you better call a surveyor no matter the price drop.
This shouldn't really be a surprise. With interest rates on the march upwards (residential mortgage rates gone from 3% to 8% in 2 years) the cost to finance a boat has increased. Like housing, demand drops, thus the heavy discounts with people trying to offload vessels.
Just the standard ol' business cycle at work.
I just sold a 39' Jeanneau in 7 days for close to my asking price. The buyer offered about 10% less than my ask and we settled between the two. I commonly see people recommend offering 20-30% off the ask, but if I had gotten an offer like that I would have dismissed it as "not serious." You run the risk of alienating sellers by starting too low. Of course, if you're not in a hurry you can keep trying until someone says yes, but you may end up sitting on your couch for a few seasons waiting for the perfect deal.
Would you have dismissed it as "not serious" if your boat was on the market for a year or would you think to yourself that maybe your original asking price was not adjusted well for the market?
@@jessefalsone1247 I think that would depend on how much interest I’d seen during that year. I’m not saying boats are never mispriced, but most sellers have looked at the local market and worked with a broker to make their best guess as to a fair asking price. They know what similar boats have sold for in the area. Very few are desperate to sell-especially if the boat is well-maintained. A low-ball offer might work, but it marks you as someone who’s more interested in getting a deal than getting a boat. Sellers are thinking, “do I want to waste my time with someone who’s probably going to nickel and dime me for every little thing that shows up in the survey?"
Obviously, people should do whatever they want. Boat shopping can be a fun activity. But, if the goal is to get out on the water and you really like the boat, it’s worth considering that low-ball offers can work against you. That extra 10% you’re trying to save will probably be dwarfed by the cost of repairs, maintenance, etc. over the first few years anyway. Most buyers would do well to focus less on the purchase price and more on the cost of ownership.
I see a lot of factors that point towards a significant weakening of the boat market in the coming years. Manufacturers have wildly raised prices on new boats to the point where they’ve exhausted demand. Used to be order and wait, now they are sitting on inventory. Biggest factor is aging boomers who are the vast majority of owners. Young people have been priced out of market so they don’t have the hobby. That’s going to lead to growing inventory and few buyers = big price drops coming
That all points to used boat prices increasing. Just like the housing market, new builds cost more, pushing demand for existing home sales up further.
@@michaelxwhite maybe at the low end where there will be more completion for affordable boats, but using Tim’s example, we’re looking at a nearly 4 decade old boat that they want $100k for despite that fact that buyers won’t be able to get a loan and probably not even be able to insure such a vessel. Debt levels have risen sharply in the past 2 years and any consumer savings trend from Covid is now gone. That translates to a tiny number of buys that (1) have $100k in cash and (2) are willing to put it into a very old boat. These assets are just going to sit until their older owners die and then they get sold off for pennies on the dollar in estate sales.
@@michaelxwhite Just like other used vehicles
Who's sitting on inventory? Orders are at least a year out. Everyone in sailing seems to make up their own reality!
@@jackwalby6257 I’m in the mid Atlantic (NJ-MD-VA) area and I’m seeing new inventory sitting with dealers now across both sailboats and powerboats compared to 2 years ago when they literally had nothing to sell and it was orders only. I’m sure it depends on your region and maybe particular models may still be order only, but the same trend is visible with new cars/trucks- once empty lots are now filling up with vehicles nobody is buying. For sailboats specifically, a dealer near me has multiple size new Catalina and Beneteaus in stock right now- no waiting. Prices haven’t dropped yet, but the building inventory is the proverbial canary in the coal mine of what’s coming.
Not surprised at all. A lot of people are drowning in debt, living off their credit cards and pay check to paycheck. With the struggling housing market now lowering prices to try and make sales I see it happening with boats too. Which for those of us better off financially it’s a dream come true.
Maybe its all inmy head. But are boats in Greece cheaper than in the US? It just seems they are.
I have zero sailing experience, but I’m a surfer so I have some understanding of the ocean, the winds, the tides. I’m planning on going to Thailand in December to take a sailing course, it's a 2 week intensive with 4 modules (Yacht Crew, VHF Radio, Inshore Skipper 1 and Inshore Skipper 2). After that I want to get my own boat ASAP, get competent crew and sailing experience.
I wonder how interest rates are impacting prices
Never try to catch a falling knife. Wait for the first or second bounce
I think you got 2 boats confused. The one on the West Coast has a new engine and other stuff for 150,000 the one for 99,000 on the east coast does not mention it.
Do you have any opinion on a second hand 1986 Bruce Roberts Mauritius 45- for 25,242 USD? will need another 10,500 USD to get it ocean ready + most likely another 10k for equipment. Is this a fair purchase to consider? OR is a 1988 Lavranos Vickers 41 for 49647,95 USD ocean sail ready a better option?
This boat had a survey in 2021 and it was rather bad. Many things need repairs, replacement, etc. That is why it is difficult to sell. And the price drop.
I learned something recently after making what I believed to be a fair offer on a proper ocean-capable cruising boat (not some POS production boat) that was immediately and roundly rejected without counter. It's that some owners have a vastly different conception of the market or their willingness to bend to it is highly variable. Just because the market seems to dictate that a boat sell for X, there are way too many variables at play to say it will. One of those variables in the intrinsic value of a boat to its owner. Invariably, that value is higher than the market will bear, either because they have an emotional attachment, they still enjoy the boat, or that market value is a fraction of their investment and parting with it at market prices is too painful. Whatever the case, don't be surprised if the seller tells you to pound sand, even as the market for selling declines. A reduction in price on one boat doesn't constitute a trend either but it's hard for me to imagine that the market is going only one way currently.
You encountered the "I know what I got" boomer. As the interest rates on their reverse mortgage continue to climb and it sits on the market for half a year accruing marina and maintenance costs, you will see a price drop.
@Shrouded_reaper my sense is that some sellers put their boat on the market just to see if they can get a high ask. This tactic might work for a unique high quality boat for which few comps exist. Some sellers are looking for that one guy who will defy the market and pay the price. In the absence of this, the owner is fine continuing to use the boat. That's my read.
I live in South Florida. I have a home n on the East side and on the West side of Florida. I also have a sailboat and have friends who have sailboats. Overall, I would say that most sailboat owners in my area consider a sailboat to be a liability. It wasn't so 15 years ago. However, with the ever increasing cost of dockage, insurance, and boat yards, it just doesn't make sense anymore. Worst is that it looks like it will only get worse as waterfront property is bought up for condos. Add to that the increasing number of hurricanes and the only people who can comfortably afford a sailboat are either the wealthy, or those who liveaboard a boat full time. There is one more factor to consider - the Sun. Ask anyone who spends time on a boat about the Sun and they will say the same thing - the Sun has gotten harsher. Those who go sailing full time will tell you about the toll the Sun has taken on their bodies. To me the whole industry will disappear within ten years of things continue as they are.
You forgot about the rising sea level making seaside condos a risky investment
Exactly this. Our brand new Pearson 30 in 1972 was about half the price of our house back then. My dad said the other costs were insignificant, less than a car payment. I checked on just slips costs around Tampa & I just couldn’t afford to keep one. It would have to be a liveaboard, voyaging life or nothing.
But there isn’t much sea level rise or more hurricanes. Got’a quit consuming alarmism from the MSM.
Every year thousends of new sail boats are soled, but the market is not very big, so old ones have to go somewhere...
Price drops across the boat industry is due to #1 higher interest rates makes less people qualified to buy, #2 maintenance costs are soaring, my last bottom job on my 45' boat was 1/4th the price the same job recently on my 22' boat. #3, moorage is up, #4 insurance has more than doubled.
In the end, people are neglecting to do the required work on their boats and have less quality when you want to buy so they are worth less. People like me on fixed income are being priced out of our wonderful life of sailing. 💩on greed of the industry!
You're onto something. The second hand boat market has serious trouble ahead: In northern Europe, Sweden, leisure boating magazine Hamnen has stated there's over 400.000 abandoned boats of all kinds. If just 4% of those have their titles changed to a new owner for a symbolic transfer fee then the market will tank definitely. Scrapping those vessels will take over 700 years with the present scrapping capacity due to that no-one is willing fot the bill. IMO the recent market development has serious trouble controllably getting rid of small ships of any kind.
put all them migrants in them boats. Housing problem solved. Let em float away.
If they sit for very long they will need plenty of $$ to bring back to a reasonable condition. The other driver will be replacement cost. If you can buy and fix a used boat much cheaper than buying a new one it will drive the boat manufacturers out of business. The real issue with most owners is the cost to keep them if you are tight on cash. Storage/marina fees and insurance fees are a constant nagging problem. Boats go into disrepair and then the marina fees aren't paid and then the marina ends up owning a boat they can't sell because it is trashed.
Add onto it the insane rate of inflation we are experiencing. Fewer and fewer people are willing to put debt into something they will have to spend big money on maintaining and refitting from time to time.
How are boat prices now?
Can we see a video of success stories of restoration of very cheap boats?
Wow, with an offer of 80, after they've already dropped it 25, would you reach the point where they'd tell you to get lost? At some point pride kicks in. Or would they come back with 90? How low is too low of an offer? I guess you gotta read the situation, timing, and market.
I would just be willing to walk away. There are a lot of boats out there for 80k
@@LadyKSailing Interesting. These videos are helpful. I like these real-life scenarios. It helps to learn how you look at boat ads and figure out the big picture. If possible, more of these!
I'm also interested in your thoughts on the used boat market. You've mentioned how it changes throughout the year, especially around the boat shows and hurricane season. But it would also be helpful to know what's going on year to year. What's happening now, a couple years after covid? Any way to predict what the market will be like in the near future? Also, what about weekend cruising or racing boats, which aren't going to the Caribbean? What's the buying cycle like for those throughout the year? Just some ideas for future videos... Keep it coming!
I recently came across a sailing channel similar to yours, and he had the balls to say you rip him off, and that Sailing UMA is a fake... just so happens you and Dan are both Canadians, so I can only assume he has not watched Taylors Travels yet, because he didn't mention her... I told him he must have a hate-on for Canadian producers, disliked his channel, and will never see another video from that jerk... I like to support our own! so Keep on keepin on Tim! Edit: I doubt he ever went from the great lakes to the Bahamas down the ICW...
Yes that guy, sailing Lattitudes, is jealous of all other sailing channels because his subscriber count is deservingly low…the only boats he likes is Beneteau.
Completely agree with you. I told that guy (Sailing Latitudes) that all of his negative commentary about other CZcams channels would turn people off and I advised that he just focus on his own content. He responded by insulting me. Fair enough. Be a jerk and watch your subscriber numbers stay low.
Hey, lady K, hopefully it's safe enough for ya...
hard to believe there's anything else still sailing...
Ok but I got a question ... this boat hylas 44 ... basically 6.5. Foot draft.. your using it as an example in video... but you had previously said. You only want a 5 foot draft boat ? So ? Can I. Use it in all those small out of the way spots you say you recommend I go too ???
No, you cannot, draft is too deep.
Unfortunately, we’re looking for a diesel trawler.😅
If I had AUD $100k to spend, I'd totally prefer a centre cockpit. My dog still likes to live dangerously on the water.
Thank you for all you do. That's a wonderful boat. Question. If I paid cash for a boat like that. What is the law stating i would need insurance?
There's no law, but some marinas may require a policy to keep your boat there. The biggest thing is not losing your $80-$100k investment.
@@ngrunsfeld thanx
It depends on where you live. Places like California make it pretty hard to own a boat w/o insurance. Check your local requirements. If you are going to take it to some other country then check the rules there.
@danielboughton3624 thank you. I am being lazy n asking the experts for info. Lookn to buy my first boat this time next year
Almost every marina requires a minimum amount of liability, but aside from that you can do what you want.
In the past a lot of people wouldn’t carry insurance if they were cruising just because of the cost if you don’t stay in a geographic area.
My insurance doesn’t cover anything north of Port Hardy, or west of Neah Bay which is fine for now
Yooo man is the boat market like the car market with boats droping in price every few years
C’mon guys boats are always going to be for sale and like everything they do sell. It’s all about finding the right buyer. A boat’s value is only equal to what someone is willing to pay for it. In my case, my 1974 Swanson 30, with my mate, we paid $32K for it. But bear in mind the two previous owners had collectively spent around $35K in upgrading the boat. So was it a good deal, yes, but do we still need to spend more on it, yeas of course. Are we satisfied with the purchase, yes. And in the end that’s all that matters. So, don’t worry about things. If you want to buy a boat, can afford to do so and afford to maintain it, that’s all that really matters. The rest is just mere details.
Lol "Fruity Rum Drinks" I'm seeing really reduced prices as well in B.C
Another fine vid, now get back on the water!
1989 is a newer boat to me
Prices have mostly to do do with the wealth of the owners. That is going down. Simple. Why? Inflation is poorly reported.
You say boat prices are sinking?
How do I contact you?
TIM !!!! The wife and I have a bet going concerning your age, I say early 30’s she says late 40’s….. could you please let us know who is closest???
Sadly, far too E.coast US centric, this week
Cheers.
Sailing the Ocean is no fun. Weeks of endless watches and no sleep..... hopefully you survive the journey. (If everything goes as planned) Nobody in there right mind would own a money pit that is more likely to kill you than make you happy. Buy a little sailboat and enjoy sailing, sleep in your comfortable bed on land.
Because sailing over oceans is a luxury . And we are broke dude !
I was literally just looking at this boat. No real compromise for this beauty.... for us anyway.
At 4:54 why are you showing a Hinckley 59? The Hinckley is truly a next level boat
@Lady__K__Sailing Not certain what there is to discuss, I'm certain you just accidentally used Hinckley footage in your presentation. Very few boats out there have the pedigree of Hinckley, certain not Hylas. I own a Mason myself. Appreciate the goal of your channel, keep up the good work!!
I think you are wrong on this. I often agree on your views but this time I have to disagree.
The Boat market will follow the same pattern as the caravan market from the last years. Vanlife exploded over the last years and I see the same thing happening with boats.
I had a big van for 3 years and after 3 years I sold it for the same price. Same with houses in Europe. In 10 years the prices doubled and even with high interest rates the market didn't change.
watch TLT, keeps going down= boat prices dwn, if it changes trajectory and starts rising, the crazy nonsense we had seen is just the beginning
If what the gurus are saying with regard to the economic situation is true, this is just the beginning.
People get rid of their old "driftwood".
Marina costs are skyrocketed.
Maintenance overpriced.
Insurance raised.
B.R.I.K.S. will sink the USA dollars to less than nothing.
Thats why.
Well, boomers are aging out...lots of boats out there!
Economy dictates
the very worse thing you can do is nothing....... thanks tim
Is it a sailboat?!
@Lady__K___Sailing bigger then a bread box?
I get the impression this guy doesn't know the difference between bow and stern. Does he ever get out of harbor?
COVID puppies
Is this evidence of 'excess deaths' kicking in?
Buy a boat already and leave us alone.