Ask Textile History - Leather vs. Pleather!
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Turns out we are right to be conflicted about this one, because there is no easy answer to the question to be had.
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References:
(1) Medieval monasteries: the role of a monastic tannery - Museum of Leathercraft. museumofleathe... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(2) Ahmed, D.; Maraz, K. M. Benefits and Problems of Chrome Tanning in Leather Processing: Approach a Greener Technology in Leather Industry. 2023.
(3) Vegetable Tanned Leather VS Chrome Tanned Leather. axesswallets. www.axesswalle... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(4) Nasr, M. M.; Gondal, M. A.; Seddigi, Z. S. Detection of Hazardous Pollutants in Chrome-Tanned Leather Using Locally Developed Laser-Induced Breakdown Spectrometer. Environ. Monit. Assess. 2011, 175 (1-4), 387-395. doi.org/10.100....
(5) Peng, L.; Long, W.; Zhang, W.; Shi, B. Leaching Toxicity and Ecotoxicity of Tanned Leather Waste during Production Phase. Process Saf. Environ. Prot. 2022, 161, 201-209. doi.org/10.101....
(6) Chrome tanned leather: environmental impact. Alta Andina. altaandina.com... (accessed 2024-05-17).
(7) Stern, F. B. Mortality among Chrome Leather Tannery Workers: An Update. Am. J. Ind. Med. 2003, 44 (2), 197-206. doi.org/10.100....
(8) Shaibur, M. R. Heavy Metals in Chrome-Tanned Shaving of the Tannery Industry Are a Potential Hazard to the Environment of Bangladesh. Case Stud. Chem. Environ. Eng. 2023, 7, 100281. doi.org/10.101....
(9) Apple Leather - What is it? How is it made? Why use it?. Oliver Co. London. olivercompanyl... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(10) About Us. Ananas Anam. www.ananas-ana... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(11) Pineapple Leather. KAIRI LONDON. kairilondon.co... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(12) Cork Leather - Vegan Leather Supplier - HZCORK. www.hzcork.com... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(13) All You Need to Know About Cork Leather. MAHI Leather. mahileather.co... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(14) Rosen, E. Are Mushrooms the Future of Alternative Leather? The New York Times. December 14, 2022. www.nytimes.co... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(15) Vegan Leather Guide 1: Monomers. Melina Bucher. melinabucher.c... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(16) Meet MyloTM. MyloTM | Unleather. www.mylo-unlea... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(17) Leather alternatives. Collective Fashion Justice. www.collective... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(18) Laurenti, R.; Redwood, M.; Puig, R.; Frostell, B. Measuring the Environmental Footprint of Leather Processing Technologies. J. Ind. Ecol. 2016, 21. doi.org/10.111....
(19) United Nations Industrial Development Organization. Leather Carbon Footprint. Rev. Eur. Stand. EN 168872017 2017.
(20) Akkan, S. Evaluating the Sustainability of Vegan Leather as an Eco-Friendly and Ethical Alternative to Animal-Derived Leather, 2024. doi.org/10.131....
(21) Est-ce que le cuir c’est mal ? La mode à l’envers. la-mode-a-l-en... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(22) Pratchett, R. Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness. Terry Pratchett. terrypratchett... (accessed 2024-05-14).
(23) Flood, A. Terry Pratchett Estate Backs Jack Monroe’s Idea for ‘Vimes Boots’ Poverty Index. The Guardian. January 26, 2022. www.theguardia... (accessed 2024-05-14).
Just popping in about 3 minutes into the video to mention my appreciation and gratitude for your captioning! I know it’s extra work with very little recognition, and as a HoH viewer I’m deeply grateful to you for taking on that work.
I love good captions myself, so you are so welcome!
Less use by many is more useful than abstinence by a few. Love that!
I am happy it resonated! ❤️
I have leather straps on a backpack that is around a century old. With good oiling, old leather just keeps going. I also have shoes from mid 20th century that continue to please, again with care. I think longevity is an important factor as well as salvaged materials being better.
Longevity and repairability are *such* essential topics when discussing resource use and making things thar last! ❤️
One of the reasons I avoid synthetic "leathers" is the smell. I've ended up throwing things out simply because of the smell.
Even if they don't smell, cheap shoes made from synthetic "leathers" are often almost as rigid as hard plastic. That doesn't work with my feet, I'm not good at pain.
This can be a challenge, for sure!
A couple notes as someone who's very much interested in this topics (and also does shoemaking):
On the topic of durability and veg tan leather:
It is often said that veg tan leather is more durable, but I usually find this claim made in a marketing context to justify its greater price. It is true that veg tan "patinas" better than chrome tan, in my opinion. In real terms, this means that worn, beat up chrome tan looks subjectively better than worn, beat up chrome tan. However, the fact is that chrome tan is actually about twice as strong, and is also more abrasion resistant (which I've tested for myself).
You mentioned in the video that some chrome tans begin flaking months after use, and I believe this is related to the misconception that chrome tan is less durable. "Genuine leather" refers to the second lowest grade of leather. It is called genuine leather because the nicest thing one can say about it is that it is, technically, leather.
Genuine leather is a marketing term, and in industry the equivalent product is usually called a "finished split". It's essentially the worst portion of leather with a heavy plastic coating on top to make it look like normal leather. This plastic coating is not durable, and also the leather substrate itself is very weak so de-lamination is inevitable, and often quite quick. In fact, most chrome tan leather on the market is coated in some amount of plastic to improve its cosmetic appearance. This is one point that should be considered when assessing environmental impact. I would say that low quality "genuine leather" is longer lasting and better than the pleather options, but I would not consider it "good" by any stretch. (do note that good chrome tans, without the plastic coating are available. They will usually be called something like "full grain").
Another point on the durability of chrome tans is that their quality varies massively. As chrome tanning is so much cheaper, often it is the case that people try to cut costs even more to make the cheapest leather, which is often much less durable. Obviously, this is not usually done with veg tan, as even the cheapest, most corner cut veg tan will still be too expensive for the cheap leather market. One way to spot when the leather itself is cheap is if you cut the leather and look at the edge. If the cross section of the leather is still blue (the color is from the chrome salts) then it was made in a rush. This can be spotted in the cracks of your boots at 19:52. All of this is to say, plastic coatings on cheap chrome tans will last the least long, non coated, but poorly tanned chrome tans will last longer but are not good, and good chrome tans will last the longest, even moreso than veg tans in my estimation. That being said, in my opinion, veg tan has many subjectively nice qualities, and cosmetically it's easier to burnish out flaws which may extend the amount of time the product is considered usable, even if the physical durability state is the unchanged.
On the topic of the toxicity of chrome tanning chemicals:
As I've mentioned above, often on low quality chrome tans, the centre of the hide is still blue from the tanning salts that haven't been properly rinsed out. I would submit that this is a bit concerning, and here's why. When working with veg tans, I often have to wet the leather to make it more malleable. The veg tan I get is of reasonably good quality, and yet after a few hours, my hands are still feeling absolutely parched from the remaining tannin leaching out of the leather into my hands. Furthermore, any spot I hit with a steel hammer turns black from the formation of iron tannin ink. Now, imagine how much chrome salts are remaining in a low quality chrome tan which is still visibly blue, compared to the amount of tannin that I get on my hands from a relatively good veg tan. Now, the fact that it's blue and not orange proves that it's chrome 3+ which is *supposedly* fine, and I'm told the tanneries have gotten better at minimizing the amount of 6+ in it, but...
On the topic of the fancy alternative leathers:
Having done a lot of digging, these are usually some sort of recycled fibre (this is usually the advertised material, e.g. apple, rice husk, ect) mixed with a resin (often an elastomer), and then coated with the same sorts of plastics used on cheap chrome tans, or pleathers. The resin is doing most of the work, and the recycled fibre is not contributing anything special. One could get equal or better results by using something like recycled cotton fibres. In one case, I found a company who said their product was degradable but they could not call it biodegradable because (they claim) the epa had an overly strict technical requirement for biodegradability. In reality, some digging revealed that their product used natural isoprene rubber as the binder between the fibres, and thus would technically be degradable, yes, but in several decades. This sounds like it's better than straight up plastics, but do note, the reason it can degrade in several decades is because rubber inherently has that property. In other words, this logic also applies to tires.
The most promising leather alternative I've seen is the kombucha scoby leather that was briefly researched a couple years ago by Thought Emporium here on youtube. The only ingredients in that were kombucha scoby and some oil to soften it.
On the topic of the water cost of cow leather:
While raising animals for meat/leather is and always will be very inefficient, the statistics cited about the water cost of beef are often misleading. They fail to take into account that the vast majority of water "used" in raising beef is so-called green water, i.e. rain that falls on a hill. Furthermore, most of the food used to raise the cows is grass which grows naturally on so-called "marginal land" (land which could not be used for actual agriculture due to grade issues, e.g. on a hill, or the field being fallow). That being said, the beef industry is so all consuming that I've heard of rainforests being clear cut to make space for grazing fields, in which case this logic no longer applies.
thank you for the effort and all the info! I learned so much!
what do they call a really good leather? What is the industry term for that? :O
I love that you are taking the time to share your expertise!
I will challenge you a little bit on your mention of cattle rearing using primarily green water, assuming the argument that green water has to be used where it falls, and is considered “free” by many in large scale lifecycle calculations. But green water *does* also replenish the groundwater levels if allowed to. And heavy grazing/use of the green water can reduce that, and we do know many important groundwater regions and aquifers are being depleted much faster than they are regenerating, which is a Really Big Problem™️waiting to happen.
Destroying rainforests and old growth forest for cattle/soy for cattle is also a really big problem globally, as you mention. :(
As for chrome 3+ vs 6+ ratios, I did attend a geochemistry course once where a professor had managed to acquire a handheld x-ray spectrometer, and would point it at various student belongings upon request. He did my leather boots at the time, and the amount of chrome 6+ was alarmingly high. Mind, these were very old boots, and I really hope you are right when you say they are getting better at leaving mostly chrome 3+ instead. Especially as a professional. Your safety is so important.
For me, its an issue of sweaty feet. Synthetic closed-toe shoes are an absolute "no" or I walk around in puddles.
Very true! Plastic is not very breathable at all.
I must wear custom orthotic shoes or I don’t walk. They cost almost $500 for a pair of shoes. While the cost is high, they last pretty much forever because the vegetable tanned leather used throughout is super high quality. I have one pair for every day and one pair for better occasions. And I’ve had them for well more than 10 years and they aren’t showing signs of wear despite the one pair being worn every day all day in all weather. I do care for them carefully, especially after wearing in rain. While I envy those who can wear “cute” shoes, I have to say that even though $500 is a lot to spend at one time, when you average out that I have them for 15-20 years and use them every day, I’m actually spending a lot less than the ordinary person on shoes. Good well made leather shoes will indeed last so much longer, when cared for, than any other alternative.
Also meant to say I love the sleepy void on the table. ❤
That is so impressive! I’ve never managed to keep shoes that long. Even when trying to look for quality and taking care or them. Definitely agree with the “cost per wear” argument, which is a great metric!
I live in hiking boots and these are high-maintainance veg-tan leather. They're leather-lined too, rather than ptfe/polyester lined. I need an orthotic, which is a thin nylon heel cup/arch support which I've had for years and over these I wear veg-tan insoles I made myself, in preference to plastic foam coverings.
Thank you so much for doing this! I know it was a TON of work! ❤ I'm so grateful you were willing to give all of the time and cognitive effort to this subject! ❤
It is such an important thing to talk about! It is such a quagmire out there.
This is interesting, thank you. Overall, I tend to think this comparison works mainly for vegetarians/vegan people or those who are close to that in the facts. Because honestly, if someone is already eating beef regularly, buying vegetable tanned leather is kind of the same in my opinion, except you buy it once. I personnally use this leather and could not compare it to pleathers. But I'm aware of the drawbacks and understand how it is not accessible to everyone, or necessarily the "best" choice in all cases, as well as how many people do not like using animal products for various valid reasons.
Absolutely. This is why I make sure to talk about how systemic issues/topics and personal choice is different. I merely wish to share some information in the hope it might help someone make that choice. I do not endeavour to choose for them.
@@KristineVike Definitely agree and really appreciate it :)
Very informative. I really enjoy these types of videos. Thanks for your hard work.
I m glad you enjoy them! I want information to be more easily accessible.
I really loved your video! The balanced perspective is such a breath of fresh air. The comparison was clear and very to the point. Longevity is such an important factor to me and I love that you covered that. :)
Longevity is such an important factor for me! It is such an essential part of the whole puzzle.
You may already be aware of comparable brands but you might be interested in mukishoes. Their footwear includes the use of a variety of materials including veg-tan leather, wool, cork, hemp, organic cotton, and natural rubber. The lining of their shoes is usually or always a natural material and often recycled or fashioned from off cuts and such. I think they're a very impressive company
GNU Sir Terry. This is such a great quote!
It is one of my favourite quotes! Shows so much understanding and care for people!
About the lifecycle: I have leather shoes - used in the slush and sleet of the winter, the absolutely worst ones to leather - that I am now after 23 years selling forward, as my feet need bigger size these days. I'm pretty certain they are chrome tanned leather. I also have other leather shoes that have lasted way longer than 10 years. Just the soles have sometimes needed replacing.
Then again with pleather shoes their usage time is generally rather short. Leather is easily 4x that, even much more. The same with bags. If I pay 6x the price for a leather bag, it still becomes less expensive than a pleather bag. Pleather bags are worth almost nothing 2nd hand - except if you find an ingenious one and buy it to function as a pattern, to make your own bags (perhaps out of fabric).
Yeah, it is really frustrating how fast pleather products fall apart, especially if someone cannot afford anything except that. It really drives home the point of how expensive it is being poor.
Very informative video, thank you!
I buy my leather items second hand when I can, but sometimes that's just not possible, so it's good to know the impact and durability of the different types of leather out there.
Horse tack is often used for decades and the higher end tack is generally veg tanned. As long as you take care of the leather with regular cleaning and conditioning it really does last a long ass time. The cheaper stuff is generally not aniline dyed (and likely chrome tanned) and tends to be much less durable. Pleathers crack and in horse tack are generally nylon core coated in polyurethane. I've not used them but they don't seem to stay nice for all that long.
🌿 ...So interesting...I like leather, shoes, bags, jackets... It's comfortable, durable... And it's a life... .Plastic... is not good... When buying a piece , (if that's what we want...) we could evaluate the considerations that have been placed here... In turn, this is not limited to them... but they help to be more aware of consumption... Some objects can be obtained second hand or it may not be necessary... Which is what makes me want something new, if what I have still serves my needs... Good to hear from you, Kristine.
I really do love hunting second-hand too. So many treasures to be had!
I think that it would have been interesting to change your list based on the longevity of the Leather. If I have a bag of natural tanned Leather that lasts me 20-30 years, I polute our World ONCE. With plant Leathers I would have to buy about 10-15 Bags....
Also not to forget this plant Leathers are at the moment an absolute niche, if you scale this production up to global demand everything will look very different. Than we face gigantic monocultures with all it's problems and the death of an enourmes amount of Animal and Nature on top. So this vegan Leathers are anything but vegan.
Longevity/lifetime is absolutely on the list!
16:37 We need more comparison charts like this!
Love these deep dives. ❤ i am all for alternatives. I personally have a favorite pair of boots that I have had for over 20 years. Just recently had them refreshed at my local cobbler. :) Now they look and feel like new. These are italian leather. How do you know if your leather is vegetable or chrome tanned?
A skilled person may be able to tell by feel. We had a geochemistry professor with a handheld x-ray spectroscopy instrument who would just point at your boots and tell you. But that’d be a very expensive way to find out!
Usually (if I'm not totally mistaken) crome tan is grey or blue on the back side, where as veg tan is usually colored all the way through (or at least not grey/blue).
I always wonder why there arent more buckskin and venison products on the market since there are yearly deer culls in some parts of the world (because they dont have enough apex predators. A subject a whole other video could be done on). Is the sale limited to specific regions? I think about this
We do get veal and venison and the like in my parts of the world. But generally more expensive. But the volumes from hunting and culling are just so tiny compared to livestock. Lack of apex predators is such a challenge to so many eco systems now!
I love this series! Is there a way, when buying second hand, to distinguish vegetable tanned from chrome tanned?
I cannot distinguish between the two yet myself, but I am getting the impression that a skilled leatherworker may be able to do so by feel.
The, "Less use by many is more useful than abstinence by a few." Great sentiment. My personal way of looking at the resource cost is that the food and water consumed by an animal is just part of the natural cycle. The cost of running the trucks to haul and factories to process is the real cost. And it is incredibly sad that only the muscle is considered the useful part of the animal. We should be using the whole animal. We have gotten lazy and don't even try to find a use for the rest. It is so often just thrown out.
I cannot consider livestock food and water as "natural cycle" when we are producing such enormous amounts of it compared to just 50 years ago. Cattle grazing on green hills is very idyllic, but a lot of cattle and other livestock is fed on soy grown on erstwhile rainforest fields, which we often as consumers don't even see since they are hidden away in huge feedlots or barns. I absolutely agree that when we raise livestock we should use the whole animal, which is also why I use increasing amounts of wool. Far too much is composted or burned because we eat lamb and mutton, but no longer use as much wool as we used to! That does not seem very resource efficient.
Thank for this info. I’m also struggling with this as a vegan who does not believe in the exploitation of animals for human gain, but I know plastic shoes are obviously not good either. As a compromise (depending on my needs) do buy secondhand leather products (usually damaged items no one wants), but any maintenance/repair of animal leather to make those products last requires MORE animal products (conditioners like you mentioned, additional leather the cobbler uses to resole your shoes, etc.)☹️
It is a difficult topic, for sure. It is one of the reasons I do not reject second-hand products. They may have been produced in problematic fashion, but at least I reduce my need for buying new things and keeps something out of the landfill that little bit longer by using it and taking care of it as best I can.
for chrome tan leather can stand way more than 3-10 years eg. cars interiar last longer than that.
I'm lucky I'm from Gotland, so when I asked my mother if I could have a sheep-pelt she asked her friend who has sheep - and then the friend sent the pelt to be tanned on the mainland, got it back, and my mother bought it for a very good price and gave it to me. I also have some rabbit-skins acquired in a similar way. But of course, cows and bulls arn't animal that the typical "hobby-farmer" keep, so it wouldn't be possible to get that type of leather in this way, not as far as I know.
I have friends who get pelts in the same way, and I love that it is something that is possible to do!
How does brain tanned leather compare? I imagine it’s the same as vegetable tanned?
I would imagine it would be somewhat similar to vegetable tanned, yes. I haven’t heard of brain tanned being done on an industrial scale though.
Do you think you will ever do videos on various company's that appear to be more eco friendly to say Yes, they actually ARE or that they are just green washing?? I have actually never had a pair of new rather than thrifted leather boots before last year. A podiatrist told me that I should avoid thrifted shoe's due to some foot issues. I 1st bought a pair on clearance from a popular brand that I won't name since I'm complaining about them (grin) and as soon as I opened the box, I had an asthma attack, they had a horrible vapor? of chemical smell around them & I assume they were chrome dyed. I had felt guilty about buying them because of how the employees are treated anyways, but justified it w/my budget. I had to store them in the garage until I got them to the post office to return. Then I bought boots I Really wanted all along but had to talk myself into ($$$!!!) from a company called BEDSTU, that claims their boots are veg tanned & that they have very good practices for their workers, the environment, etc. I would be VERY interested to hear if their claims truly hold up to closer inspection from someone that knows about that sort of thing. I Will say however, that when they arrived, they smelled very nice, like...leather, and that is almost all, rather than horrible toxic yuck! I basically live in them, I wear them Every day so nice on the reminder about giving shoes a break. Also, if anyone is looking for a good non toxic shoe polish, I really like Pure Polish. They are certainly not cheap, but they smell Lovely, as they use a good bit of bergamot I think? something citrus in the oil & it washes off your hands very easily. (except perhaps if you have cracked areas, then you do have to scrub a bit there.) It's a small company so nice to support in that way as well!
I don’t really like targeting specific brands. I was a bit uncomfortable even with the examples in this video, but I felt specific examples were needed. The big problem I have is that companies come and go, so a video like that would age very fast. And I want people to look for and support local-to-them in general, which is going to be different for everyone.
@@KristineVike that certainly makes sense.
Can I just shout out the sleeping kitty ❤
Madam is the best decor. 🖤🐈⬛
great video👍
Thank you!
The human animal is the only one that needs to make clothing to protect themselves from the environmental conditions.
But what would an alien think, if they landed at a trendy coffee shop on a weekend, about the four-legged coffee shop customers?🤔
The ethics of leather is complicated, not going to argue that point. The main problem i have with pleather is that it is more than likely plastic. The ethics of using plastic products is more egregious because of micro plastics, plastic trash that litters water ways n landscapes, and how unsustainable making plastic is.
I am going to be the difficult American here: if you want truly naturally tanned leather, you need to make friends with a traditional hunter. The traditional method for tanning leather utilizes the animals brain as the function chemical. If the brain is complete, the brain to skin ratio will be accurate for each animal.
If you have a Native American market in driving distance, someone may know someone. If you are rural enough whoever processes deer for the local hunters is a good starting point. None of these folks are going to be large scale and colors are not going to standardized.
I have no clue what the European equivalents would be, but it is only logical that someone is doing the same thing.