Will the Church of the Nazarene Split Over LGBTQ Normalization?
Vložit
- čas přidán 22. 08. 2023
- The Church of the Nazarene is embroiled in controversy over pastors and professors endorsing gay marriage and other forms of what the church once called "perversion."
#thomasoord #SeldenDeeKelley #churchofthenazarene
To Support the Podcast:
www.worldviewconversation.com...
Become a Patron
/ worldviewconversation
Follow Jon on Twitter: / jonharris1989
Follow Jon on Facebook:
/ worldviewconversation
Follow Jon on Gab:
gab.com/jonharris1989 - Zábava
Any person or so called church that supports any form of LGBT is not real Christians they are not following Christ they are following Satan and they know it ! People may change but our Lord never does! Praise God hallelujah Amen we should tell them the truth about God's Word with gentleness and respect but only the truth ✝️🙏👏
I grew up in the Nazarene church since the age of 8 in 1959. I married a life long Nazarene friend in 1971, became a pastor in 1974. By 1981 the politics among the leadership soured me. I became an independent Mennonite pastor in 1992 (my grandparent’s faith) and have never looked back. I have joyfully served as pastor of six ‘home churches’ over the last 31 years.
I understand- and you are correct! When the COTN began following (and changing) the structure of the COTN to a business model- everything began to change, unfortunately. I am glad you landed in a spot where God led you and has blessed your ministry.
We are not considering nor are we split on this subject. As Nazarenes' we reject the idea of lgbt in the church. For a large denomination there will always be a few wrongs that fall through the crack, and that goes for any large denominations. The entire body should not be judged for the small few that have the wrong acts of theology in their hearts and mind.
Why don't these people create their own denomination instead of hijacking an existing one?
Yes, but religious liberals have always been cruel parasites of this sort. They could never build a great denominational infrastructure if they started out liberal from the very word go. They have to piggyback off what was built by conservatives.
Why don’t theists stop being bigots? There’s an idea.
@@UgliestManOnEarth-69 of course only bigots would think anything was amiss with tearing up somebody's rectum with activities for which it was not designed
They cannot fulfill their gnostic prophesy if they do not destroy all moral and ethical norms, which means they have to get rid of the moral and ethical law giver, they have get rid of God, which means they have to destroy Christian churches. Karl Marx pushed this very thing, Paulo Freire wrote Pedegogy of the Oppressed which is about this. A more modern person who rewrote Pedegogy of the Oppressed and was schooled under Freire is Henry Giroux who is a professor at McGill University in Quebec Canada, his book is called Critical Pedegogy.
Because they cannot create, but only destroy.
Although Oord has been a problem in the denomination for many years now, the average Nazarene did not know about him until this spring when he published his affirming book. The Church of the Nazarene is made up of mostly smaller conservative churches, so finding out it was happening in their denomination, hopefully, has become a wake-up call. As always, it will all come down to the leadership to stand up to the false teachers. Pray for backbone.
Thank you, I agree the heart of the Nazarene church is humble and strongly evangelical. A little swish in a student handbook is not the fall of the church. We should provide push back and affirm abhorrence instead of feelings, but that's where the battle is right now. Let's affirm the push back and look for next year's heroes. BTW the Armenian heroes affirming abhorrence in Glendale California are such heroes and include a strong ethnic Armenian Nazarene churches here in so cal. Love this podcast as a platform to create these last healthier policy statements that I have just articulated. Let's encourage pushback by heroes before sounding the death nell.
@@MCHRQRD you do see that the church will go bankrupt if we don't accept even strange strangers...., right?
Jesus wasn't known for his spine, he was known for his compassion.
I was in the Nazarene church for close to 20 years. From my vantage point they have been progressive and "woke" since before those words were on anyones radar. They also lack a lot of discernment. Using music from hillsong, elevation, and bethel on the regular. And lacking any real expository teaching in favor of the bullet point life coach messaging. This doesnt surprise me in the slightest. Im so grateful to live in a country where i have access to a bible and can still read it. Because God used his word to slowly grow my own discernment. He then lead me out and brought me to a faithful biblical church with a pastor that cherishes every word of God and preaches it. They may call themselves Nazarene, but they arent the nazarene of yesteryear. I see no difference between them and NAR. And most of the people had no problem with teachers like Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, And others like them. In fact most bible study small groups used books like these. I would really encourage anyone looking to a Nazarene church to proceed with caution. Edit: they also teach the enneagram.
Totally agree with you. I had acquaintances in the Nazarene 30yrs ago who were in great distress because of the creeping apostasy in that denomination. I told them to leave & find a sound church.
@@criticalmass5402 im just grateful not to be there anymore. I hope your friends listened.
Glad you got out, hope you found a sound church. My friends got sucked straight down the charismatic hole which often happens once sound doctrine is ignored or disobeyed. We lost touch. @@briannehill7583
What a beautiful testimony of the Lord's walk with you. I'm overjoyed to hear it & to know you found a faithful church. I've had an amazing journey too but now live in rural Scotland & there isn't a solid church within reach so I rely on the ministry online of the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London. Heaven on earth until our dear Lord returns. May He guard & protect you as He promised until He comes for us or we go to Him.@@briannehill7583
I’ve been in the Nazarene Church all of my life (54 years). We are a very conservative Bible believing church (in the middle of rural Pennsylvania). I believe it depends on your local church (or what part of the country your church is in), not necessarily the whole denomination… as I’ve seen many other good Bible believing Nazarene churches.
Can someone explain to me why this is even a debate, in CHRISTIAN circles?! I'm telling you, I don't get it. This is not some obscure, confusing issue. From Genesis to Revelation, God's Word is crystal clear on it!
Because many people in the church seek validation from the culture more than they seek it from Christ. They love the world and the ways of the world too much to sacrifice them in obedience to God.
However, I think this is ultimately going to be for the benefit of the church. God is separating the chaff from the wheat. Those who are rejecting God's instruction on this matter will likely progressively reject other teachings as well since they have fundamentally rejected God's authority.
Simply a continuous sway towards compromise! As Spurgeon warned it’s the “ slippery slope of the downgrade “… Your point is valid though many don’t exegete scripture these days, leading to a different gospel ( Galatians 1:6-7)
A big part of the cause is a lot of Christians are trying to do the impossible: simultaneously hold to biblical religion and political progressivism. They get encouragement in this from people like Michael Horton, Tim Keller, David Platt, JD Greear, and from the Christianity Today crowd. For a few people the former wins out: they end up allowing the Bible to correct their political inclinations. For more of them they're going to let political progressivism lead them down the path to hell. But there can be no question that it is not impressive Bible scholarship or exegesis that leads church people towards gay affirmation. It is politics and it is the influence of people coming out within their own close circle.
I think the same thing all the time.
A denomination that accepts female pastors, although conservative in other areas, has implemented a hermeneutic that says that Paul’s explicit prohibitions against women teaching and pastoring, are to be regarded as cultural, thus not binding on the Church. It doesn’t take much ill-intent and sinful lust to utilize that same hermeneutic to disregard prohibitions against LGBTQ. I’d actually say the Bible is more explicit on prohibitions of women’s ordination than it is on homosexuality. It’s sad, and even the conservative churches will see their children use their hermeneutic to destroy Christian ethics further.
The secular world has worked very hard to groom the next generation of adults Some of those adults end up in church leadership.
This is exactly what has happened. So we need to pull our kids from Gov schools and raise them up with strong Faith and understanding of Sound Fundamentals of Christianity and our beliefs and values.
Right the wrongs of the past 2 Generations
May the Good Lord bless your ministry.
"You're defined by what you tolerate" and I see no reason this doesn't apply to churches.
perhaps because churches have sanctuaries?
@@OGBeroChanSanctuaries for Satan? Keep going down that wide path. Find out where it leads.
I wonder how LGBTQ+ people and those who affirm them within the church understand Jesus' statement; “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." Seeking affirmation appears to be the exact opposite of self denial. This actually extends beyond LGBTQ+ to all of us who; "...thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." As John the Baptist said; "He must increase. I must decrease."
Jesus tried to explain . . . Matthew 19: 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Grew up Nazarene. My grandparents would be rolling in the grave! Sad times we live
My parents, as well!
This is so true, I am a minister and have repeatedly attempted to preach regarding this issue explaining the neo-marxist foundation and roots of all of this and how CRT and feminism are all intrinsically connected by something called intersectionality. We can read this in the writings of Herbert Marcuse, Antonio Gramsci, Franz Fanon, and many more. It is amazing how many people just outright choose to ignore this ideological gnostic movement. They actively practice something called "entryism" which has five steps. 1. Request a presence. 2. Request an audience. 2. Demand a place on your board. 3. Demand that you be more diverse, equitable, and inclusive. 4. Demand policy change. 5. Demand that you curse God and die. You can read up on Timofey Lysenko who is the father of entryism. Mao Zedong used Lysenkoism as one of his biggest tools to do what he did in China. We need to stop being so willfully ignorant of this stuff, as the cost of not being aware of it is far to high.
I was with the Nazarene church several years ago. I left that group when I noticed they were becoming more progressive. Their seminary is already very liberal.
"Becoming more progressive"?? Oh my, oh my. You really are a poor soul. Haven't yet seen the light, have you?
gotta hate those progessives! /eyeroll
It’s shocking. It was ALWAYS a very chaste church regarding the outside WORLD.
This would never fly 30yrs ago
This issue is a non-issue in the Church of the Nazarene. The Church is not undergoing any change to approve such radicalization or legitimacy of the LGBTQ movement. The Church still retains, and has maintained, its adherence and integrity of Biblical teachings and practices throughout its history and denominational doctrines.
There shall be those,of course, who are led astray from sound teaching, and such men of loose character and/or UNbiblical belief system, will try to change their denomination; as we see has happened in many broken churches today. This is also seen in so many areas of society at present, as a prevailing evil of the end times. And the Scripture surely warns of such dangers and subterfuges of the devil!
However, as you correctly say - you yourself are no expert in this denomination -and taking those talking points that were not accepted by the church leadership, is not enough to make a charge against The Church of the Nazarene. It is unfounded to fault this denomination and its biblical stance, as the LGBTQ movement is not accepted within our doctrinal framework and this advocacy is clearly is not adopted by the church leadership. Furthermore, Point Loma is a University and is open to all students of various religious backgrounds and faith walks. It is an academic institution and should not be confused as defining of the denominational doctrines of The Church of the Nazarene nor its members. For all believing Christians, who hold to the Biblical foundation of orthodoxy and orthopraxy, absolutely cannot allow the lies of the devil to infiltrate the Body of Christ.
I would suggest you read the books by Harold Lindsell including Battle for the Bible and pursue further knowledge of recent American church history. There is a pattern for how American denominations die. It does not happen when an annual conference is held and the denomination votes to embrace apostasy. The way it works is that apostasy springs up in the seminaries the colleges and in churches perhaps at the periphery of the denomination. At that point the leaders of the denomination maybe on the state-level or maybe the national level have a choice: are they going to practice firm church discipline or not; are they going to expel from leadership positions those who are clearly savage wolves? The crucial downfall is when leaders in the denomination who are not embracing the apostasies themselves refuse to remove those who are embracing the apostasies. Tolerance of apostasy leads rather quickly to thoroughgoing triumph of apostasy in denominations. In view of that historical pattern I am grieved to say that your denomination is clearly headed for complete ruin, and the only thing that can stop it is the replacement of the current leadership with leaders who have the will to take severe action.
Sorry, you are only seeing what you want to see. The leadership of the church is completely compromised. See my earlier post. I have it in writing from a General Superintendent that the church does not believe the Bible to be inspired except for passages that deal with salvation. With such a low view of the Bible it's no wonder the seminaries only produce administrators these days instead of Bible preachers.
Your comments and attitude towards this false charge are applauded. I said something much later without reading yours first, but we are on the same page. I really don't give this guy too much credibility. He's just an alarmist without anything better to do.
All churches are going thru this , people would rather not hurt peoples feelings on earth , then to get people to heaven , it’s all about the feel’s not rational thinking an doctrine , why does this pastor not just go to a liberal church like the Episcopal church, the truth is he won’t because they won’t to tare each church denomination down , it’s on purpose
The Episcopal church has lost more members than any other denomination!!! Sermons are about concepts, ideas and feelings. They ramble along for about 10 mins.
Jason Welbyis woke.... strong male leadership is disappearing....
When a church turns its back on scripture to appease social justice demands it ceases to be a church of God. People’s feelings don’t matter. Gods word matters.
The new culture imperative, is to not “offend” anyone and that “includes “ everyone. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate huge numbers of Christians trooping down a wide road to heaven. It’s not ok to participate in homosexual behavior.
I was a Nazarene pastor for about 20 years before leaving back in 2004--I wrote books for their publishing house, and Sunday School curriculum, traveled and spoke at their camps, etc., taught at one of their colleges, (I'm now in the PCA; I'm C. R. Wiley--one of the hosts of The Theology Pugcast.) I'm related to some deceased leaders in that world, and I know Tom Oord--although we were not close, and we haven't communicated in years. I saw what has become known as "wokeism" tacking root in the Church of the Nazarene back in the 1990s. I didn't think it has the theological resources to resist it--and I believe I have been proven right. Still lots of great salt-of-the-earth folks in the pews. But Oord has many sympathizers and fellow travelers among the intelligentsia and in the bureaucracy of the denomination.
Nazarene to Presbyterian? Now, that is quite a theological shift.
Studied H.Orton Wiley in Wiley Hall. I'm related to the Vanderpools, knew D.I. personally. I like PCA and Gospel Coalition, so good choice. But, my favorite denomination is EV Free. However, I do think the Nazarenes will survive this Rainbow Wave. The church is so strong in the Midwest, South, and Internationally, that they will hold the majority vote in future referendums and will keep it theologically conservative. Great to see your comments.
It’s so shocking. This would have NEVER flown 30yrs ago. Nazarene’s didn’t dance, go to movies, drink alcohol, very very Conservative even by Conservatives standards. So it’s shocking.
We can be loving in Truth about the Salvation Christ provides, without affirmative of the lifestyle.
What is the point? To be exactly of the world? We would never tell Husbands or Wives to be adulterous, or to be Liars, use drugs, etc.
Very NICE new into Jon!
It’s getting to the point that holiness people will have nowhere to go!
My grandma used to attend a local Nazarene church. I always felt Nazarene churches were/are the more charismatic version of the Baptist church, but still pretty solid and sound. In fact, the Senior Pastor of the church my grandma attended attended the Baptist church I grew up in. I remember chatting with him about this and he said this was pretty accurate. There are more conservative Nazarene churches than not, but those in the minority tend to shout the loudest.
The Baptist church formally disagrees with the doctrine of tongues within Pentecostal denominations such as the church of the Nazarene!!???
@@artn2950 Genuinely unsure as to whether you are being sarcastic or serious, but I will answer. Even within the Church of the Nazarene, there are levels of charismatic tendencies. The church my grandma attended, for example, was charismatic-ish with a lower-case "c". Indeed, to be fair to some Church of the Nazarene congregations, I think some of them have (rightly) backed away from their charismatic roots as they realize it's contrary to the Bible's teachings.
@@artn2950 The Church of the Nazarene is not Penecostal and does not require tongues be spoken as evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit. In fact, it is discouraged.
Why am I not surprised. Oord has been a heretic in the Nazarene demom for a long time. The Nazarene church has been going down the path of apostasy for a long while now. I was raised in the Nazarene church, married in the Nazarene church, dedicated 2 of my 3 babies in the Nazarene church. Left the Naz church because my husband couldn't handle the excessive alter calls and ya gotta get saved again. But we went to another denom that was similar to the Naz. The stories I could tell of the naz apostasy... ugh!!! I am now a Confessional Lutheran... and sadly now, watching the LCMS struggle with apostate leaders😢
What apostate leaders in the LCMS?
🤣😂😂🤣
Im thoroughly disgusted by that podcast clip. I cannot believe he would even jest in such a way about or LORD and savior. Thats deplorable. Also....he said Mary Magdalene "sawl" which isnt a word.
The guy looks more like a weekend warrior for Antifa than a man of God.
You could really use an ad blocker for your web browser for these when you are sharing articles online.
I appreciate the work you are doing. Keep it up!
I left the Nazarene church around 2001 after a year long battle with Point Loma Nazarene University. I finally received a response from a General Superintendent telling me that the Nazarene church only believed that the Bible was inspired when it was addressing the issue of salvation. It is the theologians who tell us which parts of passages these would be. He stated that you can believe it's inspired wholly or not. They will only "defend a short line" and not take a firm position on either side. I left after receiving that letter. I'm not surprised the compromise is accelerating.
Wow! Thats so disappointing, and very telling. You made the best choice in leaving.
Stop nonsense
We are happy with our church
MYOB
I would love to read actual quotes from that letter, because that is not our position. Our Article of Faith speaks of "plenary inspiration" (i.e., full inspiration). Now, our position on inerrancy is soteriological. So, I'm wondering if you might be conflating those two different issues.
Nope. Not conflating the two. I also remember the response on whether the first 11 chapters of Genesis was inspired. The answer is yes, it is inspired MYTH. But you get that response only if you push the issue otherwise you only hear that it is inspired. Clever apostates aren't they?
I can't imagine that as the Roman soldiers were torturing and mocking Jesus as he was about to be put to death that they were expressing anything much more vile than what Mr. Oord’s little gaggle was expressing in the video at the end. The difference is that the Roman soldiers were doing it out of their ignorance. Mr. Oord, et. al., were doing it with full knowledge of what they were doing with great glee. In addition they understand that they are in leadership with the accompanying obligations on behalf of those they lead. I have never seen such a clear example of fools rushing in where Angels fear to tread.
If the Church Of The Nazarene is having problems with its pastors not wanting to tell the truth about homosexuality they had better act quickly. They had better conduct "inventory" concerning what their pastors believe and dont believe. And if they refuse to tell the truth about homosexuality they better get rid of those spiritually compromised pastors asap.
If they dont do something quick their entire denomination will turn into the same big dumpster fire as the the United Methodist Church.
Their female pastors or their male pastors?
@exvan3571 I don't know the answer to your question.
@@johnnywhite4341 nobody does. It's rhetorical.
Wow! I was an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene for years I got out in 2007. Glad I did. That this is even being considered is horrible. "It is not love to tell someone they may safely do what God has said must not be done".
One question to ask advocates of homosexuality is this: if homosexuality is acceptable, then can homosexual incest be considered acceptable?
That might depend on if they believe the bible "whispers" about homosexual incest.
This is a serious question that appears to have been overlooked in all of the discussion over same sex marriage. I have asked it many times and have never gotten a straight answer. I have however been accused of being provocative and insensitive for asking it. For those influential people, advocating for same-sex marriage, such as Pastor Kelley, before you write one more article or book defending your position on this issue, we need to insist that they answer this question. If you are in favor of it, congratulations you’re in favor of incest and there are no bounds to the depravity that will result. If you are against it, you are denying a sincere, loving couple the ability to, “love as others love,” and you are not as open minded as you would like to think you are.
I graduated from Point Loma Naz. way back in 89' and already back then they were having people like Tony Campolo speak. I found out latter they even had "Love Wins" Rob Bell. Their theology is weak, to say the very least! Very sad!!!
Graduated from ENC the same year. ENC followed PLNUs path and is almost out of business. Turned the campus into a migrant processing center.
it is sad that compassion is treated like it's evil... hmm
This caught me completely out of left field. I have multiple family connections to The Church of the Nazarene including relatives who are serving as missionaries at a Nazarene school in Nairobi, Kenya. I know plenty of Olivet graduates.
This is biased journalism. Jay Thomas Oord does not represent Nazarene theology and the Church did not print his gay theology. He was fired. He is not one of "our theologians" as the host has falsely insinuated. He is on his own theologically and is pathetic representative of Christianity. This expose on the Nazarene Church is just an assassination piece done by an ignorant, self-serving, self righteous, egocentric pharisee who doesn't have the time to seek out the facts and proclaim what is true and what is not. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Thomas Oord is the problem, not the Nazarene Church. Remember, he was fired by the Nazarenes. They want nothing to do with this theology. I know personally the President of NNU who was part of his separation. Tom is whacked!
hopefully you've seen Nazarenes demonstrate compassion instead of hate?
New intro looks good.
As a member of the Church of the Nazarene, our universities have been big issues for decades. There are some that are better, and the fact that like the Methodists we have a strong global presence helps anchor us. Generally the teaching on the ground at churches is much more conservative, but we're in a hard place being conservative evangelical (i.e. non-mainline) Wesleyans. A lot of what we go to for resources are basically just Southern Baptist/standard non-denominational stuff (e.g. Lifeway, B&H), so as everyone else shifts we're getting dragged along.
One thing that I *hope* anchors us better than some other denominations is that Wesley explicitly affirms the role of tradition in understanding doctrine. It seems that someone with courage, integrity, and a platform will need to come out and say "This is our tradition, and if you don't like it you will need to go somewhere else."
I should also point out that CotN is heavily involved with organizations like Focus on the Family, so there are some really strong lay-level movements to retain Biblical orthodoxy.
Actually Dr James Dobson asked that his name and organization no longer be mentioned or associated with the church. This occurred back in the early 2000's. And Dobson was raised Nazarene too.
I should clarify that the association isn't necessarily official. Lots of people still fall in that direction, and my own (admittedly trending older) congregation seems to be pretty old-school in that regard.@@Dave-cf4xq
@@kaw19atlas Dobson was the most famous (actually--ONLY famous) Nazarene I ever knew! And no one was ever more Conservative than he!
@@impalaman9707 Gaithers were Nazarene. The Spear family were Nazarene. Tom Hanks, John Mellencamp, Debbie Reynolds, Gary Hart, Thomas Kinkade, Noel Riley Fitch, Robert Hieb (flew three Space Shuttle missions) all have association with the Church of the Nazarene.
We have a local Church of the Nazarene whose wealthiest family own a big commercial bus company….they’ve just painted the rainbow, blm, trans banner all over their buses…..says it all, really
So that makes all Nazarenes pro-gay? What kind of logic is that? It is one man, one stupid man. Just because he painted his buses with a rainbow, does that give you the right to paint all Nazarenes as pro-gay? Maybe you might rethink you comment and delete it. Thanks.
Thomas Jay Oord has also now gone through the church judicial process and trial. He was found guilty and his credentials and even membership in the church of the Nazarene have been revoked.
The Church of the Nazarene was founded as the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene through the merger of three small Wesleyan holiness denominations that opposed the liberal policies of the Methodist Church in 1908. The name "Pentecostal" was removed from the denomination in 1918 so that the holiness denomination would not be confused with the practice of speaking in tongues. Most Nazarenes today are both cultural and political conservatives, as only the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) voted more "Republican" in the last presidential election. I am a former Church of the Nazarene youth minister in Bucks County PA., and I find it outrageous that any Nazarene cleric or lay member would justify blasphemous homosexual behavior (see Romans 1). The Church of the Nazarene needs to get back to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, Peter, John and the Apostle Paul. John and Charles Wesley would be totally ashamed of the blasphemies within the Holiness movement today.
That video at the end... you buried the lead Jon, should have played that in the first minute. That was absolutely shocking. Those are not believers.
Jon- it may be helpful to be more organized in your presentation. I find you sometimes hard to follow in that you tend to "shoot from the hip" and skip around the screens before people can digest what you are saying.
But having said this, it is such a sadness that we as Christians who are supposed to follow the authoritative Scriptures are even considering the whole LGBTQ argument. People do not know the Scriptures or are interpreting the Bible from a post-modern perspective. The Scriptures are perspicuous in what it teaches about human sexuality and how God sees these "lifestyles". But people want to wear the label Christian and hold their non-Christian worldview. Dr. Francis Schaeffer got it 100% right when he talked about our current zeitgeist as adopting the existential methodology. There are SO MANY New Testament Scriptures about mixing the world and who we are as followers of Jesus, the Holy Son of God. But they use the same methodology of interpreting Scripture as the rationalists that led to denominational splits over 100 years ago. Unbelief is unbelief. Apostasy is apostacy.
The same split in the Methodists is the same split in the Nazarenes. It is the same split between the PCUSA and other Presbyterian denominations. Simple unbelief and rationalism. I pray that God, in His mercy, will cause a new reformation and we return to His Word in faith.
"I hope the dude had sex at some point while on this earth" and "having Christ as your lover would be phenomenal", the people all smiled and laughed? That would violate the Commandments God gave Israel. Jesus fulfilled His mission without sin. Ach!
I found too much rambling, repetition and pauses to gather thoughts. ... not enough prep in my judgement
As a member I share many of these concerns. And think some may need a closer look. Thanks.
The path to Hell for the Nazarene Church started long ago. There was a Nazarene pastors conference where Robb Bell was the chief speaker. Robb Bell also spoke in a chapel service at Point Loma University.
Yep
We had an Orthodox Jew speak at NNU. Does that mean NNU was on the path to hell? Your conclusion is erroneous. Just because an institution has invited a controversial speaker does not mean they endorse their position. Many times it is to draw a distinction from what they actually believe.
When you read an excerpt from a passage that is on the screen behind you, please move the small screen you are in so we can read it as well. Otherwise, great job.
You mentioned “doctrine” several times. One thing you missed that is significant in the denomination’s “fight” against LGBTQ+ is that up until recently the Articles of Faith (what you mean by “doctrine” I believe) and the Christian Conduct (I.e. Human Sexuality) were distinct. In other words, the expectation was that allegiance to the Articles of Faith was viewed as being fundamental (not fundamentalist) whereas the Christian Conduct guidelines were viewed as more open to debate but recently, prior to the denomination’s most recent General Assembly, the Board of General Superintendents put out a statement that they were one and the same, more or less.
Other than that, I think you did well with the connections you made which are helpful in understanding the background. But you didn’t answer the question of whether the Church of the Nazarene will split. What do you think?
If the same sex couple wishing to fulfill their the hearts desire of marrying each other was two brothers from the same family, would Pastor Kelley affirm that union?
Give him 10 or 15 years and probably yes
@@conceptualclarity
5 years.
Give sovereignty to the wishes of the individual and demonize those who would draw a line against the wishes of the individual and there's no way to put on the brakes against that.
I think biblically speaking homosexuality is actually a lot worse than consensual incest. The fact that people can defend the former while claiming to be horrified by the thought of latter shows how twisted our thinking has become.
But why should we accept that,its an devotional act, plz understand the situation
This was an isolated incident that you are making more out of. You don't seem to have much knowledge of our denomination.
What do you think he said that’s not true? I do have knowledge of the denomination as far back as the 1960’s. What was said in this podcast isn’t an isolated incident. There’s a book of essays that Oord edited. All of these folks write about why the Church of the Nazarene should be LGBTQ+ affirming. Some of these essays are from those holding credentials in the Church of the Nazarene, some pastors & scholars, etc. While the Church of the Nazarene has pulled credentials from one of these, there’s some others who still hold credentials. It remains to be seen if others will lose their credentials due to their public disagreement with the Church of the Nazarene’s stated beliefs.
Here in tn, about 2 years ago they had to signa document agreeing with yhr stance on issues. Moat aigned but a few resigned there positions for not signing. So it may be a voice out there amoung some but definitely a lot oa churches in the south are holding to biblical standards
The pro LGBT+ crowd at Liberty was always a big supporter of Prior...take that FWIW
To be candid I wish that Liberty were doing more to make such people feel that it is not their kind of place
I have an uncle who died about 40 years ago. I never knew him but I did know he left the Methodist church and was a pastor in the church of the Nazarene. My grandmother as far as I know never spoke of it. My
Mother a Baptist and my father a Methodist.
As I was in the denomination about 14 years ago, I can say what the official beliefs were concerning sexually, versus what was being pushed by many leaders and seminaries/universities, were two totally different things. And some of the stuff put out there was rather bizarre. And when I would tell Nazarenes about what was going on, the attitude was basically "nothing to see here folks, move along". It's called naivety, or better yet, lack of discernment. And the ironic thing is that the CotN is of the Wesleyan tradition, and so they consider themselves a "holiness" denomination. Go figure...🤔
Jon, by my count you have responded to one person. Do you not read your comments? Who holds you accountable? You are not infallible, especially evident in this presentation.
If we are strong l believe that nothing like this must never ever be allowed ....😢 I am truly heart broken 😢😢😢😢😢 🎉🎉Jesus Christ😢😢🙏
The Church of the Nazarene is fine. It is Thomas Oord that is screwed up. He does not represent Nazarene or Orthodox Christian theology. He was fired from his professorship by Nazarenes.
@@TheCruiseDogwhen was Oord fired? 2015? Still holding credentials in the Church of the Nazarene in 2024? Oord said he may lose them this time. Btw, Oord said it’s his 3rd trial. You can find Oord talking about his “trial” on various CZcams podcasts.
Wow. This guy is so behind the times.
Church of tge Nazarene is shrinking here in tge Mid-Atlantic region. Their universities are Eastern Nazarene College in Quincy, Massachusetts. Where is tge Seminary in New York or New Jersey?
KCMO
I'm truly curious...what does doctrine say about intersex individuals? As in born biologically ambiguous or with both male and female markers. It's not an uncommon occurrence (a quick online search will yield census results from the US and around the world), but I never see it spoken about in depth or debated. Does a child born intersex whose parents choose a particular gender for them have to conform to that gender for the rest of their lives if they do not feel it fits? Do individuals whose parents allow them to choose their own identity when they are old enough to make an informed commitment get treated as not following Biblical gender norms? When the speaker says the issues are not all that complex, it's more that his views are overly simplistic.
Jesus explained as best he could to the Jews of those days. Matthew 19: 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
A very rare occurrence.please get your facts right.their DNA will still show that they are xx or xy chromosomes.which is what makes you male or female not your deformed parts.
Jim Garlow is not a member nor clergy from the Church of the Nazarene.
Right, however I believe that Jim Garlow’s education includes Southern Nazarene University where he earned both his bachelor’s & master’s.
@@vickyjackson777 Yet he cannot speak for us nor represent us in any capacity- he left the ministry to pursue a quasi-politico- religious organization as its director.
@@OparacletosI disagree. Here’s an excerpt from one of Jim Garlow’s Facebook posts, “I am not a Nazarene, but I am a graduate of a Nazarene university, was ordained in the Nazarene Church for many years, and I deeply love and respect the denomination and so many of its adherents…” I believe Jim Garlow still identifies as Wesleyan. So the Nazarenes & Wesleyans both share John Wesley theologically speaking. - So I believe that Jim has as much right as anyone to voice his opinion & concerns about the Church of the Nazarene which he loves & cares about.
@@vickyjackson777 - and yet he did leave his church to form and lead a quasi-political-religious organization. He also left the ministry of the COTN because he no longer agreed with our doctrine or polity as a whole. His conflation of politics with the Church (Catholic- “world wide”) places him squarely with the evangelical fundamentalism that does not represent the Kingdom of God. In addition, his alignment with the former President of OWU, underscores that strong alliance between the Church and politics- something the COTN HAS ALWAYS been in opposition to.
We (the COTN) do not conflate our theological or doctrinal position with the world’s Empire.
We are only called to underscore our support for the present and future Kingdom of God, and not the Empire of this world. That disqualifies him for speaking on our theological and doctrinal behalf.
I have known Jim for more than 45 years, and have seen the progression of his Theology that does not align with that of the COTN. I LOVE HIM DEARLY as a brother in Christ, but he cannot represent us in his current position.
That does not make him a “bad person” - simply someone who cannot speak as a representative our denomination in its current state.
@@Oparacletosso you are more concerned about Jim Garlow than you are about those who’ve infiltrated the COTN teaching doctrines contrary to the COTN (Church of the Nazarene)? - That’s telling. Btw, I believe that Dee Kelley was a Nazarene pastor for 17 years before he lost his credentials & I’m not sure how long Mark Maddix influenced others before he lost his credentials & now Thomas Jay Oord says he’s having his 3rd trial in the COTN yet it’s Jim Garlow that stands out to you in this video. 🤔 Besides Jim Garlow had posted pictures of NTS. Pictures with rainbow flag which was disturbing to him to see at a Nazarene Seminary. - But that’s not okay for him to do in your opinion?
What Michael Byrd comment?
I am a long-time member of a small Wesleyan-Arminian connection of churches. We have known for years that the CON was drifting far from their moorings. However, this sort of thing is much farther out than would have been suspected even a few years back. I will say, however, that I believe the position on LGBTQ taken by Oord would be quite rare in the denomination. I would consider that most Nazarene laypeople, for instance, are considerably more conservative than the average United Methodist church that is disaffiliating over these same matters.
This Thomas Oord is not merely a wolf in sheep clothing, he's a flee bitten rabid wolf with mange. There is no disguise so treat him accordingly.
Kinism is confusing as google says, kinism = hold beliefs that divinely ordained social order is tribal and familial apposed to the social order as being imperial and propositional. And a more secular social justice tribalism using phrases like "divinely ordained" is extremely problematic all cults to appeal to christian like audiences use christian-eese lingo. This should be a red flag to all followers of christ.
The LGBTQ+ practice and theology is a problem. However, the Nazarene Church is egalitarian; they recognize and affirm women as pastor/elders; and that is and has been the foundational problem. Every time it’s tried in the Church, egalitarianism leads to the LGBTQ+ movement (UMC, SBC). If that’s not addressed, then the church can expect this trend to continue.
Unlike the UMC and the SBC, Nazarenes have always ordained women. That is not the issue.
I attended a Nazarene University and studied in the Theology Department… They believe in being a “big tent” so their articles of faith allows for theistic evolution and they ordain female pastors. The Nazarene Church may appear to be conservative but they undermine the Scriptures with their overt teaching of these incorrect doctrines. The University has evolution as part of their Science department and the other Universities teach it too. I am now a Calvinist and attend a PCA church (mainly because I cannot locate a Reform Baptist Church near me) my wife attends a Nazarene church so there is a major schism in my household due to me warning my wife of the COTN and how they are compromised theologically.
Wouldn't it be nice if pastors were more influenced by God's Word and not stupid books.
yes, please talk about kinism
I will say this very disheartening to find out the church I grew up in has headed down this road. I went to a Nazarene college in the late 79’s early 80’s where I had the great privilege of knowing men like Robert Sawyer, Donald Metiz, Paul Cunningham. I even knew of James Dobson(father of James Dobson). I even knew many of the General Superintendent of the day personally. They all must be turning in their gravels to see the church they love going to the pits of hell. I will say I caught wind of this back when General Assembly. Hearing that was coming mainly from the west. California no surprise.
I have heard rumors for a number of years now that these things were creepin in among the Nazarenes. It might have been J.D. Hall who drew my attention to the situation there a number of years back. I remember the podcaster, whoever it was mentioned some of the same issues concerning the seminaries.
As of now, I believe that the United Pentecostal Church International is not having open issues in this area. However, I know how things were among some of the youth when I was reaching full adulthood, and I dare to predict if things are not quickly dealt with, they will be having this as a major issue in less than ten years, and I fear my timeline is optimistic.
Also, look for Bethel, Saddleback, Hillsong, IHOP, and Elevation to be fully affirming in less than five years.
Doesn’t the UPCI not believe in the Trinity and instead affirms what they call “Oneness”?
Saddleback is already stealth- affirming. Megan Basham brought this to attention this spring
I think the incentive to not wreck their music ministry will keep Bethel and Hillsong from doing that in the near future. Also Bill Johnson endorsed Trump in 2020 which indicates that although he is flaky as could be, he doesn't seem to be woke.
@@unit2394
Yes, buy that has no bearing upon my statement. And Trinitarian communities are quite a bit further along this road than is the UPCI. I am just saying that they need to watch their way, because this is coming to them, likely sooner rather than later.
@@conceptualclarity
None of those things necessarily would keep any of those churches from becoming gay affirming in the next five years. Furtick at Elevation is also softly affirming, much like Andy Stanley and T.D. Jakes. Hillsong has already been caught with openly homosexual leadership that was only dealt with after they were caught. So far the strongest opponent remains Johnson in Redding, but there are little hints that his view is not as solid as would be desired.
Anyone remember the Christian group 4Him? Here's some lyrics we all need to hear right now.....
I won't bend and I won't break, I won't water down my faith, I must be a light for future generations....
Grew up in the Nazarene church and it wasn’t that long ago till I found out that it went back to at least my great grandparents. Whilst I am aware it is founded in America and there is a chance that it can infiltrate, this is more of a Western problem. Can’t see people obliging to this pull from where I grew up
Like others here, I left several years ago, due to compromise. For me it was in the early 2000's
I WAS LISTENING TO YOU JON..THIS SCRIPTURE CAME UP..2 TIM. 4:3-4.,,THOSE WHO HAVE ITCHING EARS.,NO SOUND DOCTRINE.. TURNING TO FALSE FABLES..
And I'm sure this pastor thinks he's a martyr just "doing the Lord's work" and sees himself as a Martin Luther-type being an agent for reform within his church, when in actuality--he is a "false" martyr, and an "anti" Luther!
Do you want the Lord Jesus to say depart from me I never knew you. You best Preach the Gospel, forget about the baggage the world is bringing in
The people of Christ shouldn't even be having this discussion. We all read our Bibles right? It shouldn't matter what people want or what government wants.
Remember 2 Corinthians 6:9
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
We are not to trust I. Our OWN MINDS, Selves Because we are wicked and fallen. We place our trust and faith in Jesus Christ, and Follow God’s ordinance because we are trash when left to our own devices.
It’s not interpretation, or “different times”
It’s as written. We are not bound by the Mosaic Law because Christ fulfilled it, but the Moral Laws still are enforced. We rely on them to know how to build our Moral and Christian Character.
I go to a Nazarene Church, and I've never heard anything about this, even being a thing. I do know my pastor and others are not LGBT affirming.
If you seek a place to make your stand -- stand with the church of brotherly love -- Revelation 3: 6-12. We keep Jesus' commandments -- Matthew 22: 36-40, and have the 'little strength' of the Rock -- Matthew 16: 17-18. See also Matthew 6: 5-8, and then consider . . .
that never before in the entire history of humanity have so many educated people lived so freely and so abundantly. And for just 17+ years, we have been connected to this shared, worldwide experience with near-instant communication.
It is GUARANTEED to Wake "THIS" Generation Up. Because the Father knows what you need, before you ask.
Epochal Eclipse a CROSS North America on April 8th 2024, when MORE shall be revealed to those with "eyes and ears." The rest will see only an eclipse. Don't stare at the sun -- Matthew 16: 4. Exercise YOUR faith. Jonah 3: 5, 8 Jonah 4: 11.
Here is my best solution. Let freedom ring, let freewill run it's course and whoever or whatever is behind such movement. Let it be as the Beatles sing. It is time for Thomas Jay Odd to start a new Denomination call, "The LGBTQ Church of 'Whatever' but, leave the Church of the Nazarene alone.
It shouldn’t be so easy for a church to split, just love your neighbors and stop casting stones, it shouldn’t be so hard to understand.
1 Timothy 1:8-11
“8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.”
What good is salt that has lost it's saltiness, except to be thrown on the path and trodden upon...
God's word doesn't change
Man is what voids the word of God.
Grew up Nazarene, went to a Nazarene College, and taught at a Nazarene college. Sad to see what is happening with Nazarene colleges. They have embraced wokeness.
Anyone who calls the Church of the Nazarene woke is greatly mistaken. We are the denomination that discouraged dancing as late as the 90s. We still as a denomination call for abstinence. Church doctrine is definitely against homosexual acts and homosexual marriage. I don't like the wording on the call for celibacy but it is accurate. Homosexual identity is a modern invention, in the days of the bible there was no such thing, simply homosexual acts. The bible does not ban things that did not exist in those days. Love the sinner, not the sin.
Unrelated note, I disagree with the Church on alcohol.
Gay people have always had the right to marry. They want to redefine marriage to suit their lusts and sin.
It is very unpleasant to be in a marriage to someone you are not attracted to or to someone who is not attracted to you. If you were heterosexual, would you be willing to be married to someone who is homosexual and not attracted to you but was forced into that marriage anyways just to put on a public image of heterosexuality? I don’t think you would. If you were heterosexual, I think you would very much prefer to have a heterosexual spouse…
@@jefaljoneTrue, but I think that the "LGBT" people who are incapable of attraction to the opposite sex are in the minority and it's a small minority with the females. I'm not so sure how to estimate it with the males.
@@jefaljoneNo one is saying gay people have to live in sham relationships with straight people. Gays are and have been for decades, free to openly form committed relationships with one another. That's not the issue. The issue is, are those relationships marriages? God, the creator of marriage, says, No. God's people obey His standards, His definitions, His social constructs, not man's. Your argument, which I've heard often from gay marriage supporters, is dishonest. Again, gay people are free to have intimate, committed, same-sex, relationships. They just can't demand or expect the Church to accept those relationships.
@@dwanareese1774 Nowhere in the Bible does it say that committed gay relationships are not marriages. You are misunderstanding the definition of marriage. You will learn one day.
@@jefaljone The definition of marriage is given plainly in Genesis 2:24 and is reiterated by Jesus in Matthew 19:5-6. Also, Scripture plainly teaches homosexual sex is sin, with no exception made for loving same-sex relationships. I understand clearly what the definition of marriage is and Who created it. You are just in rebellion against God.
I grew up as Nazarene as you get (every Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night). My wife I met at, and graduated from Southern Nazarene University. My brother, sister in law, parents, and grandparents went to Northwest Nazarene University. My grandparents were Nazarene missionaries and my grandfather a Nazarene pastor.
My wife and I left Nazarene world for more Reformed Baptist circles about twenty years ago, when I became convinced of election, the five solas,.imputed righteousness (Nazarenes tend to be fuzzy on imputation), etc.
I was also concerned about a general slide towards liberalism in the denomination.
I was taught theistic evolution at SNU (I majored in biology). They also seem to be having more and more women pastors all the time.
When I grew up in the 80s and 90s I didn't know of any women pastors (though Nazarenes always technically permitted them).
Now there are tons of women pastors.
I feel like Nazarenes use to be basically Arminian Baptists (Billy Graham was a big hero back in the day), they seem to be headed towards becoming liberal Methodists.
I am very concerned about the direction of the denomination. I have two young nieces that recently graduated from Northwest Nazarene and Trevecca Nazarene Universities and their doctrine seems fuzzy,. causing me to really wonder.
My husband and I are also now reformed baptist, having been convinced of election and the solas. All the problems you mentioned are the same ones I struggled with while in the Nazarene church. On paper Nazarene can look conservative. As a Nazarene I had even been told they were legalistic. The truth in practice is they are very liberal. At least the churches I attended. They had very progressive ideology. I watched them go from mostly sound to going over the edge. By the time I left they were talking about the enneagram. And during the pandemic the church I had been attending began teaching adults from the little K curriculum. Which is just embarrassing. I had been struggling spiritually to accept what the church had been doing. After they started using preschool curriculum I told my husband I cant take it anymore. And he agreed. We left, and searched for sound. It took a while but in 2021 the Lord lead us to the most amazing church I've ever attended. Its small, and rich in fellowship. Our pastor is so faithful and careful with the Word.
@@briannehill7583 I think Nazarenes use to tend towards legalism, but haven't really done so for many years. Growing up in the 80s, movies, card playing, and dancing were frowned upon, and smoking, drinking, or chewing were considered really bad. My grandmother never ever wore pants (dresses only).
Regarding liberalism, my parents Nazarene church was pretty bad during covid. They didn't meet for a long time, pushed masks really hard, and didn't sing because the governor said we shouldn't.
Our Baptist church (in the same town) was a fair bit better on covid.
@@briannehill7583 I think the Arminian theology tends to lead to both legalism and theological liberalism.
Regarding covid, all my Nazarene relatives took the jab. At our Baptist church, a lot less did.
@@baj3085 That's interesting to me. I grew up in the 80's as the last gen x...but I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I had no knowledge of Nazarene back then. As a kid I thought there were 2 camps of people, Christian and non Christian. And a Christian to me at that point would have been anyone who believes in Jesus. No context to what that means. I just had no clue. What I find interesting is that a denomination that looks down on women who wear pants would be fine with women pastoring. I understand that wasn't as common back then. But from what I understand still within the frame work of their belief system. And by the time I got on the scene in 2000 most of the Nazarene churches had at least a husband and wife co pastor team. I remember as a baby Christian being confused by that.
@@briannehill7583 In the big picture there really are only two types of people. There are people who believe, love, and follow Jesus, and people who don't. I knew a lot of dear precious saints of God in the Nazarene church (and also some who probably weren't). I'm glad I grew up in a Christian home, even though the Nazarene church has some major faults. I do think the Wesleyan/Arminian doctrine has some serious errors that hinder and stunt Christian spiritual growth. For example , as a Nazarene, I never had assurance of salvation and constantly feared losing my salvation.
Wish i hadn't watched the video. Horrible.
This video does not represent the Church of the Nazarene or its doctrines. It represents Thomas Jay Oord, a professor who was fired from his teaching position at Northwest Nazarene College. The host has done a hit job on the Nazarene Church and needs to apologize for it. He has done a shameful thing.
@@TheCruiseDogtell us specifically what you think he said that you don’t believe is true. I’m a long time Nazarene Church member & from the research I’ve done & things I’ve seen, I agree with what was presented on this podcast.
@@vickyjackson777 As I have said before, Oord does not represent the Church of the Nazarene's theology. He is off the rails. For one thing, he is a proponet of Open Theology which basically teaches that God is not Sovereign, specifically that God is clueless to the unfolding of future events. This is not biblically based nor is it an official doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene. That would be the first thing that the presenter got wrong. Oord does not speak for the denomination. He does not hold a teaching position in the Dept. of Theology at Northwest Nazarene anymore. He wanted to return to the instituion to teach again, but at his severence it was agreed by both parties (Oord and the school) that he could not return. I know that as I am a personal friend of the President who was a part of that legal seperation.
Second, the inclusion of LGBTQ into the church leadeship is not sanctioned by the church either. His new book affirming the Rainbow Wave into the church was not published by the Nazarenes and it has been condemned as false teaching. I am surprised that the D.S. of the District that he is licensed in has not pulled his credentials. I think if had been like my own father, who was a Nazarene D.S. in two different States, he would have.
Now, speaking to the LGBTQ issue again, there have been voices from inside and outside of the church of the Church of the Nazarene to change their stance on homosexuality and related issues. For those who want to do that, there are procedures written within the Manual to follow to change doctrines if one wishes to pursue that. But, so far, none have even come close to acceptance. Protests and the writing of a book calling for a change does not equal change. It has to be voted on. This is where the presenter gets it wrong again. Just because someone makes some foolish noise as a Nazarene does not mean that every Nazarene is a fool. Oord is not respected for his views, he is not welcome to teach in the Universitys of the denomination, and we'd all be happier if he joined someone else's club.
The presenter didn't do his research. He should have contacted the Church of the Nazarene for an official statement. Like I said, he did a hit job on the denomination and has not answered to those who disagree with him. He really doesn't care about the truth even though he says he does. He is a lousy reporter.
Just got an update on Oord. He is facing charges by the Church of the Nazarene for teaching false doctrince. Finally! Here is Oord's link to the update and his specific words regarding the inclusion of LGBTQ to the denomination which are contrary to the denominations (it's position is also included). I am pretty sure he will be removed from the clergy and possibly from membership. I bet this presenter won't even cover it which will prove that he really doesn't care about the truth. He only cares about viewership. He is a joke.
czcams.com/video/SbWoc_HfnC0/video.html
@@TheCruiseDogthe things you mention here do not refute what the presenter said. Jon pointed out that the LGBTQ+ book was published by SacraSage Press. Btw, I understand this is Thomas Jay Oord’s publishing & Oord himself remains a credentialed Nazarene currently. The trial is set for July so it remains to be seen what the outcome will be. - You mentioned the DS should’ve taken Oord’s credentials. I understand there’s a process that involved the DAB. You failed to mention this but Oord has explained it. He also has a blog where he’s released or releasing his defense. Oord said it will be available on Amazon. Btw, Oord is listed as a theologian, a philosopher, etc. I agree that his teaching is false teaching but the fact is that he has been “allowed” to remain & influence people in the Nazarene Church. Jon pointed this out & it’s true what he said. The essays themselves show his supporters & Oord has other scholars & theologians supporting him. - I don’t know why you ignore this. In fact I had a conversation today with one of Oord’s witnesses for his trial. I believe you’d be surprised at some of the names. Btw, Oord is being open about what’s happening. He has it publicly on his blog, in CZcams interviews, on social media, etc. - I’d challenge anyone here to do their own research & verify the facts. Living in denial or burying heads in the sand helps no one. Btw, I do not say this disrespectfully. I say it because it’s true. Jon has nothing to gain by doing a hit job on the Church of the Nazarene. If you watched it all, I’d think you’d be digging deeper to find the truth rather than shooting the messenger.
This is no surprise. The Nazarene church has never been a Church. They’ve had female pastors since the beginning.
By normalization you mean rejecting bigotry.
This is the whole problem of denominations. Once the ruling body downgrades & betrays the Word of God, the entire denomination falls as it filters down. This is why God set out independent churches as the scriptural pattern. If an individual church falls, one falls, not hundreds or thousands.
The biblical pattern is one church that is made up of separate(but connected) congregations with leaders that teach the same thing. God didn't set up independent churches, and you won't find a single passage that says so.
You're wrong but it's too big a discussion to have here. @@theeternalsbeliever1779