Parenthood in ASOIAF (ft. The Fantasy Nuttwork)
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- I've been wanting to talk about motherhood and fatherhood in ASOIAF for a while now, and I'm so grateful Jimmy from @thefantasynuttwork was willing to indulge me! We covered a lot of topics, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts. It's probably one of my favorite discussions Iive had around ASOIAF so far. Leave a comment below!
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Hey if we're purely talking numbers Bobby B is one of the best fathers.
If that’s the bar then Craster, Waldar Frey and Aegon IV would be outstanding father figures ☠️
lmao ☠️
Foul
Aegon II does pretty well too, and he enrolled them in sports :)
He was a good father to at least his first bastard
I see bookborn, I see a title with ASOIAF
I PRESS LIKE
🥹🙏
one of my favorite show only scenes is where catelyn has this tragic monologue about how she thinks all the terrible things that have happened are because she couldnt love jon snow as one of her own.
I feel like a lot of people in the fandom think her treatment of jon is purely evil, but it really adds so much human complexity to her character imo
If I can rank top 4 biggest Jon Snow haters, I would rank it like this
4. Ramsay Bolton
3. Alliser Thorne
2. Catelyn Stark
1. Preston Jacobs. I don’t know why but he seems to have a strong hate boner for Jon.
Beautifully acted scene. I lowkey hate it though for transposing the role of a modern nuclear family wife/mother onto the framework of westerosi noble families. Like, Catelyn didn't raise her own kids hands-on, it was the wetnurses. I wish the show conveyed the nature of how these noble families operate, because I've seen the toxic side of the GOT fandom also used that scene to talk shit on Catelyn...
@@nont18411TBF, Preston hates a lot of things. Still enjoy his content, but I get butthurt about him hating on one of my favorite characters in fiction.
@@jessjess23brooks89 I don't really remember him hating Jon. The show version for sure but book Jon?
@@VinnieMF Preston blames the perpetual delay of TWOW and ADOS on Jon. He said that if he was Martin, he will kill off Jon right away to reduce chapters (since Jon’s resurrection is what dragged the story way too long, according to him) and quickly publish those two books.
Not to mention that in his TWOW fanfiction, he had Jon Connington usurped the chapter named “Jon” from Jon Snow while also had a character named Jon Vance as a POV in prologue chapter to mess with the fans’ anticipation.
Jaime, I think, initially cared about his kids but as soon as Cersei told him to keep away from them, he sort of decided ‘whatever I don’t care about them anyway’ as a cope, he sort of admits that because when Joffrey dies he’s thinking about how he always disliked him even since he was a baby because he ‘took too much of Cersei’s time’ but then when Cersei tells him he’s never been much of a father he says yeah that’s only because YOU never let me be close to them, and in the later books Jaime starts seeing himself as more of a dad, he starts thinking about telling Myrcella and Tommen that he’s their dad, and about trying to get Tommen out from under Cersei before she turns him into another Joffrey, he leaves his vigil for Tommen and calls him his ‘son’ in his POV, small stuff like that which makes me think it was mostly Cersei that made sure he couldn’t be a dad, but I do also think he was probably scared to be a dad anyway, and once she dismissed him from that responsibility he was of course sad but maybe also a little relieved that that was one more responsibility he didn’t have, and then checked himself out
Yeah I actually do think there was a lot of cope. We see that in Jaime's POV a LOT. The way he acts as a reaction to how others view him or treat him. So, if Cersei won't let me be close to my children, then I guess I don't actually really care...
Jaime Lannister, greatest Swordsman, and Dissociator, in the 7 Kingdoms
I think Bookborn will have a good time with Fire & Blood. A lot of parenthood there, spanning over a century.
I agree! I also know that if House Of The Dragon didn't have all the more gross elements of the shows, she would love it too. It's not as bad, and I think if she watches it with someone who knows when the scenes appear and can skip them, she'll have a great time watching!
@@shinymk6562 HotD is somewhat more tame than GoT and hell, tbh it is actually tamer than Fire and Blood (lack of Mushroom, Blood & Cheese actually being less dark as well).
Yes one the two worst fathers
SOON. SOON! I'm very excited to read it
Some unmentioned dads I think are interesting here are in the Stannis camp. Stannis himself as a dad to Shireen, how Davos is a second dad/uncle to Shireen along with all his actual sons. How Cressen wanted to step into the dad role for Robert, Stannis and Renly after their parents died.
Then there's Balon Greyjoy who blames Eddard for his sons dying in the war he himself started, and how he treats Theon.
49:42 It's actually Jon's POV when Cat says "It shoud've been you", he even reflects on how she never called him by his name.
Lmao at Bookborn associating spring with growth and bunnies and Jimmy saying dead bodies 💀
Loved your discussion, hope to see more videos like this from you two in the future!
Jimmy and I agree on literature so often and yet we clearly see the world very differently 🤣☠
Not talking about Ser Davos Seaworth as a father is criminal.
There are so many! You know I love my onion knight!!! (but for real he has a lot of complicated stuff and he'd be a great addition to discuss at length)
Jamie’s part as an “absentee” father is directly tied to Cersei and how she treats Jamie. She has used how Jamie feels about her to manipulate him, and part of that manipulation is enforced distance at times to increase his desire. Add in how Cersei sees her children (extensions of herself) and this makes even more sense.
not really, she just told him not to interact with them because she does not want to generate any suspicion over her kids' parentage... you know, the treason that could have all of them killed and that started the war we are now witnessing in the books.
I mean if we’re being realistic, the real reason is because it would’ve drawn suspicion to an already circulating rumor. A single conversation with Jon Arryn or Ned Stark and Robert would have certainly ended the lives of both Jaime and Cersei without a second thought. Possibly even the children themselves, given Robert’s past.
Yes, Cersei is far worse and clearly on the opposite side of progress compared to Jaime presently is but that does not change the thematic purpose of what their relationship as siblings is meant to represent. I could write a thesis on them so I’ll simply say that I believe they are widely misunderstood. I believe Jaime’s redemption arc will be a case of tragedy as befits a story like this or a ‘too little too late’ tragedy. I say this because I find it increasingly difficult to imagine exactly how Jaime will find a way out of the trap that has been set for him. Anyway, I encourage you to reread his famous weirwood dream and try to compare it to the situation he will soon face. There are parallels. Anyway, I just think he’s been given more credit than makes sense. I do enjoy his POVs though but I’m afraid there is a good reason why George came up with the concept of LSH and let us remember that the final words she heard uttered to her son at the Red Wedding (which she now knows Jaime had a hand in) was “Jaime Lannister sends his regards”. There’s also Bran to consider, the future king if the rumors are true. Catelyn is not at her most forgiving at the time and Brienne made her choice, it sadly makes sense for her own ‘arc’ in the story too. He is a very well-written character, I’ll admit and hope I am proven mistaken but would not be surprised. I think Jaime fans know this and idealizing him is a form of cope for his rather shaky fate. Then again this was before the popularity of his character on the show.
BTW- I kinda don’t know what you mean by purposeful distance? If I understand you correctly, you think she told him to keep his distance from her kids for him to feel desire for her or like for even more attention? That is firstly, an outright ineffective and foolish mindset. Secondly, she doesn’t care or have the subtlety for psychological games, Jaime least of all, when would she even need to? She gains next to nothing, save a sword to protect her, by ensuring such loyalty. And once Jaime comes back without a sword hand, her main motives lay bear. She almost never thinks about what Jaime is up to and when she does it’s out of disgust that she could ever have noticed how “weak” and cowardly he always was. The little romance we hear from them is always a fleeting thought that never lasts long, and in both cases it does not go much beyond sexual. If you’ve read the books, which I’m sure you have, try to think about Margery & Loras as siblings, he’s a year older but it fills Cersei with jealousy beyond belief and only furthers her hatred. She was overjoyed when Loras had no choice but to volunteer in retaking Dragonstone, leaving his sister vulnerable. They are effectively meant to be the foils (or parallels) to Jaime and Cersei. Their relationship is actually healthy and based on mutual respect and actual love. Additionally, there is no incest and each make a sacrifice for the other. Think of how Jaime refused to be Hand (twice), when Cersei and her children would have been safer for it. Compare them to Loras who swore an oath as a member of the Kingsguard and the personal protector of her sister. Loras is (in the books) the greatest fighter in Westeros, alongside Jaime before he loses his hand, it is worth noting Jaime’s rather random friction with Loras, I think he likewise feels something akin to jealousy now that he has been replaced by this 18yo kid. His blind passion for Cersei is self-inflicted as he refuses to see any of the dire consequences he made either with or for her. That is, however, changing of course.
@@cardenovaI still think Jaime will survive on to be the Valenquor. Which the fandom gets so hyped about, but in reality is also really sad and tragic. And thinking Jaime will also enjoy this act and not in actuality absolutely hate himself for it, but feels he has no choice is so one dimensional to me. In my humble opinion, he will either die in the act or take his own life after.
@@jessjess23brooks89 The prophecy said “wrap his hands around your..” Jaime famously just lost a hand, so can he even do it? I wonder how it could literarily be pulled off by George. I’d say given what we’ve seen of Cersei without any restraints (Book 4) we can infer that she is self-destructive and makes everything worse in her obsession to maintain total control. In the case of prophecies, they seem to be rather flimsy …EXCEPT when the person becomes consumed by attempting to prevent it from further unfolding. So personally, I think Cersei will unintentionally bring about her own ruin, a self-fulfilling a prophecy, if you will. But I tend to agree that you are right in that it is simply too obvious to be Tyrion. She has no other younger brothers but she may have one a new step-sibling if she remarries, likely a Greyjoy, the prophecy itself is only a few sentences (I forget it verbatim) but I remember it said it will “drown” her and I instantly wondered if maybe that was a reference to them, cause like I said, the words are carefully chosen given how much important it now is to her future. Perhaps she’ll marry Euron like in the show and since he is the younger brother in his own family he would do it? Or maybe one of his brothers? (and by extension a younger step-brother) will do it? Lol idk but the word drown is super interesting, I thought.
I’m shocked you mentioned Molly Weasely when talking about how diametric the portrayal of mothers is in childrens media!
I think she’s far from the Perfect Mom that we see in Disney movies..
Reading the books as a kid, Molly was almost a villain character in my head😅 (grew up with a strict mom).. I hated how strict she could be, especially with Fred and George and how they had to struggle to get her to come to terms with the fact that their dreams and ambitions dont align with the standards that she sets for her children. Also Ron feeling inadequate compared to Percy (and Harry) in his mother’s eyes.
Her fight with Sirius in ootp, the scene with her boggart, and the tension she had with Fleur..
It’s all SO good! So so good! She’s such a complex mother figure!
Reading the books now that I’m older, I cant help but sympathize with her.. must’ve been hell trying to raise 7 kids who all seem to have a death wish😂😂..
I actually think Molly Weasley is an excellent example of representation, but if it’s ALL we see, I think she’s still presented as someone who deeply loves their children AND is mostly connected in the story to children. That was my only point!
39:19 I dont think Cersei even hates sexism per se. She hates being on the wrong side of it!
lmao I love this thank you
10:25 Personally, I desagree. I think, if we look at the situation from Ned's perspective, he has very good reasons to deslike Jaime and the Lannisters:
1) The Lannisters came late to Robert's Rebellion, only after Rhaegar's demise, when it was practically over. If they had joined the rebels sooner, the war could have ended way earlier.
2) When Ned arrived at King's Landing, the city had already been sacked by the Lannister army, which cause the unnecessary unlife of many innocents, which could have been prevented if Tywin had ordered his army to take only the Red Keep instead of ordering them to sack the city.
3) The Lannister army had risen the Lannister banner in the Red Keep instead of Robert's, which Ned saw as meaning that the Lannisters wanted to grab the throne for themselves.
4) When Ned reaches the throne room, Jaime is sitting on the Iron Throne, having unalived the king he had sworn to protect. Of course, we know why Jaime did all this and we know that he was right and justified in doing so, but there was no way for Ned to know all this. What it looked like is that Jaime had allied himself with his father in thaking the Throne for House Lannister, breaking his vow as a Kingsguard for this reason. Especially with we consider that Jaime only steps down from the Throne after Ned enters into the room with the Northern Army, in what it looks like a show of strength. In other words, it looks like Jaime only reliquished the throne under the threat of force.
5) Jaime killing Aerys denied Ned of closure for his father and brother's death via trial and judgement. It was also not his right to kill, Aerys, since he was a member of the King's Guard. This right was for the Rebel Army.
Taking all of this into consideration, I think it makes sense for Ned to judge Jaime, especially because Jaime refuses to tell anyone about the Wildfire. Many people blame Ned for Jaime being called a Kigslayer, but I don't think its Ned's fault. Even if Jaime had tried to explain the situation to Ned (which, according to Ned II from AGOT, he didn't do) and being denied by the northern lord of any chance to explain himself, he could have told Robert, Jon Arryn, Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion, or any other person about the Wildfire plot later. All this people would have loved this and used this as a propaganda piece to paint the old regime in a terrible light and the new one as rightious.
The reason why Jaime neve spoke of it to anyone is twofold, I think:
1) He resents Ned for judging him when Ned saw him uppon the throne. Tywin had a mentallity that the Lannisters are superior to everyone else, which he teached to his children. So when a "mere wolf" judged the lion, Jaime refused to explain himself, only hating Ned for it. Which is a shame, because if someone would understand what it means to deshonor yourself for the sake of the innocent, it would be Ned Stark.
2) I think that, unconsciously, Jaime thinks he deserves to be seen as the Kingslayer for his fails to upheld the knightly vows previously. Aerys bruns Rickard alive and strangles Brandon, all the while making a mockery of the Trial by Combat, one of the most sacred practices in Westeros. It was clearly wrong and unjust, but Jaime stood by and watched. And he stood by and listened while Aerys r*p*d Rhaella. Of couse, we have to take into consideration that Jaime was just 15 years old and his superiors in the King's Guard were telling him that "his duty was to guard the king, not judge him" and that "they had sworn to protect the queen, but not from the king". These were the men he idolized and saw as great knights telling him not to act like one. As Jaime says himself, he dreamt of becoming Ser Arthur Dayne, but ended up becaming the Smilling Knight instead (without fully realising that Arthrur Dayne wasn't that great of a knight to begin with). I think Jaime, unconsciously, thinks he deserves all the mockery for failling to live up to what a true knight is supposed to be.
And I think we also need to remember that both Ned and Jaime were two traumatized teenagers by the end of the war, with Ned being only 17 (I think) and Jaime being only 15, which makes their behaviour all the more comprehensible, I think.
Sorry for the long relpy hahaha And to be fair, most of my points here come from the Race for the Iron Throne page and other good ASOIAF pages.
Great analysis, completely agree
@@grandkhan9261 Thank you!
One aspect of Jaime’s character that made him unknowingly becoming more like Ned is his quest (or Brienne’s quest) to protect Sansa.
After the Robert’s rebellion, Ned witnessed Tywin ordering his men to r*pe and murder Elia Martell and her kids in order to end the Targaryen bloodline, with Robert approving it (which led to him falling out with Robert later on). Fearing for Jon’s life, he kept Jon’s true identity a secret from his peers, including Catelyn while having to dishonor himself for fathering a bastard. The only other person who knows about Jon’s true identity is Howland Reed.
Now look at Jaime, after the whole package genocide of House Stark in the red wedding (parallels to the end of official Targaryen family in Robert’s rebellion), Jaime became more estranged to his own family, mainly his father and his sister/ lover thanks to their brutality and their mistreatment of Tyrion. And with the vow he made to Catelyn, he gave Brienne a mission and a Valyrian steel sword Oathkeeper (made from Ice) to protect Sansa covertly. He did this behind the back of his own family (not even Tyrion knows about this) while having to keep the facade in front of everyone else that he’s the mastermind of the red wedding to maintain the image that he’s loyal to the iron throne.
I'm so happy that you guys didn't fall into ASOIAF is just nihilism. Martin is writing "real" characters/people dealing with "real" struggles in a fantasy world. I describe it as magical realism through a historical fantasy lens. When people confuse his writing as "simply subversive" or "Nihilistic" i think they are actually just outing themselves as nihilists themselves. Its as if they are saying, "if the hero does not win, how could there be any meaning?" well the meaning comes from their impact on the world, the people around them, and the hope they inspire. Its sad how many people miss that in his writing.
I think a lot of it probably comes from when he was writing this: although others came before him, I think A Game of Thrones is really the book that popularized grim fantasy, especially when we consider how heroic most mainstream fantasy was prior. So, I think now that means that the "grimness" is the label that has stuck. I know I was certainly surprised to realize how much hope is actually present in the novels, but like you said, it's just delivered in a very different way than what we view classic fantasy as.
Other parental relationships I think are worth considering:
- Doran Martell's relationships to his two eldest children, Arianne and Quentyn. Quentyn basically dies to make his father proud and prove his worth, and Arianne is driven by the perception of her father seeking to give her birthright to Quentyn.
- Speaking of Martell's, Oberyn's relationship to his daughters, especially to Obara.
- Cressen being the dad-who-stepped-up, for Stannis in particular "for you were the one unloved".
- Balon Greyjoy, and his relationship to Theon and Asha. Asha took on the role of 'son' when her older brothers died or were taken hostage in Theon's case. It's interesting the amount of respect Asha has among men, and how she's "the Kraken's daughter". It's interesting how much it contrasts to Theon's experience with Balon. Balon vs Ned as a father for Theon. Also, Ned as a father figure who might be forced to behead Theon depending on Balon's actions.
- Bear Island women as mother warriors and single mums!
Good discussion. Absolutely agree with you guys re the books focusing on the respective legacies of Ned and Tywin. Martin is often accused of being overly cynical or even nihilistic.
However, he goes out of his way to demonstrate that the naive honourable leader/ father's impact is greater than that of the arch machiavellien. Ned's honour gets him killed and shatters his family, but it's also what's going to save them.
But Tywin’s way is a right way to go though. Arch-Machiavellian is what leads to success in this world and the real world. Tywin’s only mistake is that he didn’t treat any of his children like human beings.
@nont18411 it goes further than that. Tywin's influence with the Lannister retainers ends with his death. They respected him, but they didn't like him. If the Lannisters were to fall, nobody would be in a hurry to restore them to power.
Even when the Starks are scattered to the winds, there are multiple factions of retaining houses, even the Hill tribes who rally to restore them. ADWD is full of references to savage tribesmen who've never been near Winterfell marching through blizzards to save Arya; "Some girl? Ned's girl".
@@nont18411The only people that mourn Tywin's death are Kevan, probably because he knows a version of Tywin very few have before all his regrets and disappointments led to a very hard man. And the person who killed him: Tyrion. Even Cersei is more worried about optics and the excitement to become the female version of her father, since he isn't in the way to take the spotlight.
There is a reason George had the man killed on a toilet by his own son. His version of success is fleeting and only lives for as long as he does. And when he dies, Pycell (his lackey, ass-licker for all intents and purposes) doesn't even take the effort to remove the bolts from his stinking, leaking corpse before Cersei see's him.
Ned's parenting will ensure his kid's and children survive extreme conflicts, hopefully with their morality mostly intact. I don't see a world where the Starks don't find a way to bounce back and thrive.
Tywin's actions to his children, his house, the smallfolk, and all the other lords will ensure that his very ancient family name will go extinct and no one will mourn them in Westeros.
@@jessjess23brooks89not just kevan. genna to
@@nont18411 I bet killing Elia and the Red Wedding will also prove to be huge mistakes on his part. Alienating huge swaths of the kingdom isn't conducive to long term success. Tywin has almost single handledly assured that the North and Dorne will never be cooperative allies or subjects, and these are the more remote and difficult to control regions of the realm. They're both actively plotting against his interests. The Boltons have a tenuous hold on the North. The Martells aren't exhausted by the War of Five Kings and will surely ally with a claimant against the Lannisters. If you want to pick from cynical machiavellian houses, the Tyrells are more competent than Tywin's brutal approach.
Other important perental figures to discuss are Lord Comander Mormont, Stanis, Lord Martel, and John Connington. Griff might be the best example of an adopted father.
There's a bit of parallel between Jon and Little Finger in that the both find themselves looking after their dead love interests child (that happens to look just like them).
@@chase55431 And Little Finger def isn't the way to do it ☠
Bookborn’s here making so much ASOIAF content that she could finish Winds of Winter, which no content creator has ever claimed, wver
Preston Jacobs is actually making a community fan fiction about Winds and it’s seems to be pretty good
Have you ever heard of Preston Jacobs?
@@Flammewar yes. Yes I have. Wasn’t hyperbolic enough with the sarcasm, it seems
@@PonderingsOfPeteyou were it was quite obvious 😂
1:22:35 Regarding hope in ASOIAF, I would like to quote George when he was asked about it.
"In a very basic level winter is coming for all of us. I think that’s one of the things that art is concerned with: the awareness of our own mortality. “Valar morghulis” - “All men must die”. That shadow lies over our world and will until medical science gives us all immortality… but I don’t think it makes it necessarily a pessimistic world. Not any more pessimistic than the real world we live in. We’re here for a short time and we should be conscious of our own mortality, but the important thing is that love, compassion and empathy with other human beings is still possible. Laughter is still possible! Even laughter in the face of death… The struggle to make the world a better place… We have things like war, murder and rape… horrible things that still exist, but we don’t have to accept them, we can fight the good fight. The fight to eliminate those things. There is darkness in the world, but I don’t think we necessarily need to give way to despair. One of the great things that Tolkien says in Lord of The Rings is “despair is the ultimate crime”. That’s the ultimate failing of Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron. We should not despair. We should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches, drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it!" - George R.R. Martin, Ideas At The House (2013) (I found it on Reddit actually but that’s the original source)
I cannot fathom people who believe GRRM is a nihilist. It's so antithetical to what he writes.
@@VinnieMF Yes, I also think the show did him a disservice. The show has a lot more nihilistic undertones than the books, especially considering how it all ended.
But I also found another quote in the same post where he's directly asked if ASOIAF is too nihilistic xD:
"No. That particular criticism is completely invalid. Actually, I think it’s moronic. My worldview is anything but nihilistic."
@@Flammewar Moronic lmao
This point was so good I have to comment twice. I love the way you articulate how characters like Catelyn and Olenna involve themselves in the politics of their houses, maintain their autonomy, AND still care about their kids. It’s a very simple concept that is missing from so many fantasy worlds
Speaking of fathers: Walder Frey is more complex than he gets credit for. He doesn't host the Red Wedding because he's a mustache twirling villain - we don't like his reasons because we love Rob and Cat, but he has reasons which have a ton to do with his role as patriarch of a middle power between forces that would crush the whole family just to own the bridge
tbh I don't feel like anybody is a mustache twirling villain in asoiaf, which is why the story is so strong. Every character has real motivations! it's just sooo good
@@Bookborn Roose Bolton. So evil that Satan takes notes from him and then crosses a bunch out as too cruel.
@@silverharloeI get why you say so and I am not trying to justify his actions, but even Roose seems to have some valid motivation and positive aspects (at least it seems like he had loved his first son)
If someone is an absolute villain, it's people like Euron/ Gregor Clegane/ Ramsay who simply enjoy hurting and torturing vulnerable people
@@irusia1574 sounds like I misremembered the name. I meant the one who tortured Theon.
@@irusia1574he hardly cares that Ramsay may have killed his son and would potentially kill any future sons by his new wife.
Yay, Jimmy's great! This may be the best discussion of George's character work I've ever seen.
Hmm gotta disagree with Jimmy on Dany being barren. That's what she believes, but it seems like she had a miscarriage in her last chapter of Dance and Mirri never actually said she was barren, she just gave a cryptic statement that led Dany to believe she was. Plus, "when the sun rises in the west" statement might actually be coming true; Quentyn is likened to the "sun" by Quaithe and he starts (rises) in the west and dies (sets) in the east. The Dothraki sea is a dry sea, the pyramids of Meereen could fit the mountains blowing in the wind, etc. Drogo's spirit is represented by the comet in Dany X AGoT, so if that returns at the end of the series ("then he will return"), this statement would be fulfilled.
Not saying GRRM is going to end the series with Dany having a baby, but it's definitely possible Dany constantly thinking about being barren is just ironic foreshadowing.
Shout out to Selwyn Tarth who seems to have struggled (off page entirely, mind you) with accepting his daughter for who she is but eventually recognizes and accepts and loves Brienne for who she is.
ugh see! even in the small, off screen moments, george is able to telegraph so so much
I regularly forget Jaime is a dad. Other than when he was nice to Myrcella in the show there's like no Dad-Jaime moments
There's no Jaime dad moments in the books either really. Jaime tries with tommen once and cersei gets PISSED
Yeah agreed with the other commenter - when he thinks of his children, it's often with the memory of Cersei telling him no
I love love this video and Jimmy did an amazing job being next to bookborn as a more experience lore handler but letting Bookborn cook and praising her fresh POV.
This is the reason i join the channel because Bookborn brings new fresh POV to an old book that has many POVs.
Looking forward for that Cat video since she is one of the least spoken characters by the fandom.
I think the biggest thing about Jaime is the self loathing he hides. I interpreted him as likely feeling his children were better off without him in their lives, both for safety, and to avoid becoming him. Hes constantly comparing himself to greater knights and better men, and that’s not a sign of someone with a lot of self worth to pass on. I do see him trying to parent Tommen in AFFC, but Cersei is not a fan of supporting that, and is clearly shutting him down. It would be interesting to think of how he wouldve been as a father if he had married Lysa Tully and each of them didnt suffer the trauma that they endured.
About Daenerys and Cercei.
Martin himself has said that one of his biggest regrets about spliting Feast and Dance was that you lose the comparison between Cersei and Daenerys all the paralels which would be more visible if they were in the same book. So the comparison between these two is a thing!
Even characters that are considered overall bad parents like Bobby B. have complex behaviors regarding this aspect or their lifes, Edrict Storm and Mia Stone remember Bobby B with love, is not an example of a good father per se but it it says a lot about the complexity of the book and its characters
Bobby wanted to be a good father to his first byblows, but Cersei threatened to off then if he took them to Kings Landing like he wanted. He had the potential to be a good father for sure, but it's like all the circumstances that helped him win the war, hindered him from succeeding in life in general.
@@jessjess23brooks89 yeah he wanted to be a good father and yes Cercei threatened to kill his children if she ever see them, but on the other hand he was the king he could have arranged some way for them to have a better life.
Yes! I think that's the thing. Even the "bad" parents, they are all written as PEOPLE. We can understand them even when we don't agree with their actions. And that's what makes the series so intersting, and so easy to discuss. The characters just feel so ALIVE
Would love to see more of this content, keep up the great work, watching your ASOIAF journey has been very satisfying
Randly Tarly is by far the worst dad in the books:
Actually Craster exists
Randyl is a piece of shit but I wouldn’t even put him in the top 5 worst parents in the books lol 😅
Thank you for sharing and giving me brand new insights to one of my favorite series
This has been my top theme in the series and you're the first commentator I've seen address it directly, instead of by individual relationships. And it's a discussion! Looking forward to listening.
1:00:46 She’s thirteen in the first book. Her fourteenth birthday is the day she realize that she’s pregnant 😭
Oh yeah, how could I forget that line 🥲
I would listen to this weekly podcast. A Song of Moms and Dads
Such a fun discussion! Loved the topic, i could listen to yall discuss for hours on end
Seven gods you guys are amazing! I would literally listen to you guys talk for 5 hours!
I love your ASOIAF contents so much !
An hour and half long video. This just made my day. I feel so blessed lol 🎉
I think one of the reasons Cersi dislikes being a lady so much was because she didn’t have a mother around to teach her the internal reasons for being one. She wasn’t taught about the purpose and power that comes with being moral, kind, and gentle and the strength that takes. She was taught to be a lady by men whos reasons were no deeper than a shallow puddle. Be a lady because you’re a woman. So she is a proper lady, but only in the shallowest way possible.
16:20 Not only did Robert not want to be King, but you could also argue that he never wanted Lyanna. Firstly, he didn't actually know and projected all these ideas onto her, some of which were completely contrary to who she actually was. Moreover, Robert's fake love for Lyanna, seems to be really rooted in his real love for Ned. Ned is Robert's BFF, and he loves him so much that he wants them to be legally brothers, hence Lyanna. This is why in AGOT, he wants his "son" Joffrey to marry Ned's daughter, Sansa, so they can join their houses.
So in short, Robert is gay for Ned.
@@nont18411 I wouldn't go that far, but sure, that's an interpretations.
Great discussion! Never read a word of ASOIAF but I enjoyed the spoilers 😂
I have only seen the tv show, but I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation!
39:17 I wouldn't say he's hinting at the idea of most people wanting power for themselves instead of for "the good of the realm."
Look at Ilyrio Mopatis and Varys, who want to support someone else. Look at Ned who refuses power, and is still forced to be the Hand. Look at Tyrion who so actively hates power and people, but he still does what he can to support others.
And even look at Dany... She wants to "break the wheel" to support and protect people. Or Jon who is constantly trying to be honorable and is unintentionally thrust into power repeatedly. Even Rob didn't really want to be the King of the North... He wanted to avenge his father's murder and be sure his family never faced a similar situation ever again where they were forced to separate and that was used against them.
No one is really fighting for democracy, but there's definitely a message that all the people vying for power are evil, and only those looking to support others are good at heart.
But, what I feel is one of the biggest themes of the books... Where do you go from there? If the people who want to help don't want power, and the people who want to control, manipulate, and take advantage all do want power... Who or what is the force that will bring all that to even a potentially positive conclusion?
And it seems like his answer is grassroots movements (which he highlights repeatedly can be easily corrupted - the North with the Boltons, the Maesters, the faith of the Seven, the Nights Watch), and fate (being in the right place at the right time with the right frame of mind, and the right skills). But fate will only keep you in power for a short while without cleverness, and the fall from power through a lack of cleverness *and* honor is the worst of the bunch.
The hate for catlyn is like the hate for louis in "Suits"
Both are not great people but their characters and their arcs are so fascinating and complex that you end up loving the character.
People dont want to grasp that. The here "i love this character" and interpret it as "this character can do bo wrong"
Its super frustrating because yes we know these characters suck (in sme ways) but its their reactions to these bad decisions that makes them so fascinating abd endearing
Cant get enough of your ASOIAF content - some of the best out there right now. Keep it coming!!!
I really like some of the parallels that were drawn between characters, some of them I had never even considered.
And 90+ mins long too! Great video.
What a great topic for a series that deals with generational trauma.
What a great video! I'm really glad you read this series, it's a whole lovely new perspective on books I've loved for a long while.
This is the content I am HERE FOR!
I'm not that sure Catelyn would treat Jon all that different. I think she would fear him. Her dispice towards Jon steam in part from what the Blackfire rebellions caused to the realm and Jon being (to Ned atleast) a Targaryen bastard is quite threaning specially with Targaryen Hater #1 in the throne, specially when you see what happend to the Iron islands for declearing independeance, so imagine what would he do to a traitor...
Cat loves her children and probably would do terrible things to protect them
13:54 Don’t forget Theon. Theon also considers Ned as his father.
Good point!
Theon explicitly does not consider Ned his father. Ned was kind but cold and not loving to Theon, and Theon was always very aware that at any moment Ned could behead him.
@@coqui9879 true but I think Theon considers Ned and what he would do or think which is about as fatherly as Theon gets unfortunately
1:07:05 I don't think Dany truly wants the throne. And I don't think she wants it because her brother wanted it. For Dany, the throne is only a means to an end. What she truly wants is peace, safety, and family. Remember, at the beginning of AGOT, she doesn't care for her brother's quest for the throne. She is happy to stay in Essos and never go back to Westeros. However, when an attempt is made on her life by assassins sent by Robert, she realizes that she is not safe even in Essos. That she is considered a threat by Westeros even though she doesn't plan to go there and doesn't want the iron throne. Hence, she concludes that the only way for her to be safe, is to take the throne. I personally believe that in her quest for the throne, Dany will forget why she wanted it in ther first place, that it was only a means to an end. And that if she could have peace, safety, and family without the throne, she would happily take it because that's what she truly wants.
Your ASOIAF content always delivers
Tywin really is the worst. Imagining him raising a kid like Bran, with his powers, would turn him into someone like Euron.
This was a really interesting conversation. I enjoyed it a lot. Goes to show there's still way more aspects we can dive into more. Looking forward to part 2 already!
Only 3min in and I can tell I’m gonna love it since Ned is the best character.
I wonder how you’ll talk about him as a father…
One common topic in the fandom is actually Ned vs Tywin as fathers.
Great conversation! I didn't realize until almost the end since I was more listening instead of watching, but the contrast in background lighting really adds to the conversation, not that Bookborn was good "side" and Jimmy was on the morally bad "side", but it definitely fits into a vibe of pro/con of parents in ASOIAF. Thanks!
Great video as always!! Jimmy and Hillary’s takes over time have helped me appreciate the series and think about it that much more!!
I loved the connection you guys made between Cersei and Dany; that's something I had not given a lot of thought before, but there's so much there.
I have a lot to say about Bobby B. The quote you are talking about between Bobby B and Ned is in the context of Robert admitting that he knew Joffrey was lying about the incident between Arya, Joffrey and Nymeria at the Trident. Bobby B asks Ned if he loves all his children. Ned says he loves them with all his heart, and Bobby says, "How could I have a son like that, Ned?" It's in chapter 30 of AGoT.
I see Jon Arryn and Bobby B as somewhat parallels of each other as fathers. Bobby B lost his parents to storms as sea, an event so traumatic that Stannis becomes an atheist for a long portion of his life, despite living in such a religious society. Robert's father died while he was still a very young man, and Jon did not have a son (although Sweet Robin is probably Littlefinger's biological son), so they naturally fulfilled roles for each other as father and son.
Jon Arryn really loved his adopted sons, but doesn't seem as connected to the boy who appears to be his son. Robert doesn't feel connected to his "legitimate" children, but Ned acknowledges that Robert enjoyed spending time with Mya Stone when she was a baby. Cersei not only doesn't allow Jaime to become close to his biological children; she also prevents Robert from becoming close to his. She notes that Joffrey did not gurgle happily in his lap the way his bastard in the Vale did. My impression is that Robert would not have enjoyed the responsibilities of fatherhood, as he did not enjoy the responsibilities of being a king, but he did enjoy that his children liked seeing him.
I also think Robert didn't love Lyanna in a true sense. Ned says Robert only saw her beauty and did not know her wildness. Robert doesn't pine after Lyanna because they loved each other; Robert pines after her because he can no longer have her, and he has since reframed her in his mind as something she was not. Had she lived and they gotten married, he would still have cheated on her.
Briefly want to mention Littlefinger and Jon Connington in their roles as fathers. Littlefinger doesn't seem to give a shit about his biological son, Robert Arryn. He's actually poisoning him. In contrast, he views Sansa as a daughter. I think this stems from his resentment towards Lysa and obsession with Catelyn. Deep down, I think he knows he never slept with Cat and that Lysa took advantage of him, but he wants to believe he is in control of his relationship with Lysa and that Cat really loved him. He literally kills Lysa, and then continues to take out his resentment towards her on their son. Meanwhile, he views Sansa as the daughter he and Cat would have had, but also sees her as Cat. He tries to undermine Ned in front of Sansa in order to take his place as her father, but he also lusts for her like he did as a boy for Cat, so there are obvious incestuous tones to that relationship. He defines his relationship with his two "children" by his relationships with their respective mothers.
Jon Connington is a tragic figure. He thinks he's raising the son of a man he had unrequited love for, but the boy he has raised as a son is actually probably Illyrio's son. Illyrion is fond of the boy, praising him, giving him gifts and his favorite candies, and Tyrion is able to wear ill-fitting boy's clothes from Illyrio's manse. So Jon is raising the son of a stranger because of the love for someone who did not return his affections. In "the Griffin Reborn" chapter, Jon contrasts "Aegon" with Rhaegar. Rhaegar's eyes were a deeper purple than the bluish-purple eyes of Young Griff. Young Griff also lacks Rhaegar's eloquence, saying, "I like your castle" in contrast to Rhaegar saying, "your father's lands are beautiful." I wonder if Jon doubts Young Griff's authenticity but clings to it anyway. Would he still love his adopted son if he knew that he raised him for a lie?
Omg!! I just started my first reread of the series and this is what’s been sticking out to me! It’s shocking!
16:32 I don't think he even wanted Lyanna to love him because he loved her. I'm pretty sure Bookborn brought this up before in one of her videos, but I think he loved Ned - not in a sexual way, but just as (perhaps even more) intimately. He saw the potential to spend the rest of his life connected to the Stark family, able to celebrate every holiday and major event with Ned - and Lyanna represented that for him. I mean, Robert was a Chad - the biggest chauvinistic brute of a bro to ever live. When she was kidnapped, he went ape mode, and when she died his hopes at having a happy best bro friend died with her.
Hard disagree with Jimmy on Cersei. On closer inspection (especially in Feast!) it's clear that she *only* loves Jaime and her children as extensions of herself, not in the way any mom normally loves her children. As far as Tywin not respecting her interests/masculinity, I fail to see what masculine traits she actually has. She postures at being masculine, and often fails (again, Feast) - while she does face sexism, her incompetence and inability to take criticism is why she doesn't get respect.
She's also arguably the most misogynistic character in the whole series, I honestly think she's worse than Theon.
I'd argue she did have some love for Joffrey, but I'd say she's amused at best by Tommen and Myrcella.
One interesting thing to think about with regards to parenthood, Robert wanted to have sweetrobin be ward to Tywin after Jon Arryns death, and thats why Lysa left kings landing. If sweetrobin became tywins ward, would he have turned out better or worse than he did in the current story?
Take your time George, take your time
This is a very interesting discussion topic. I first read the books when I was 16, and now I'm 25 and still years away from becoming a father. My views on the books have changed a lot over the years, but I've never really thought about the representation of parenthood because it's just not part of my reality. Honestly, it makes it even more impressive that George can write so many different versions of fathers and mothers despite not being a father himself.
The Daenerys’s part is really fascinating male heroes or protagonist usually if not always have the warrior arc type and George plays that with rhaegar how when he read about the prophecy he thought he needed to master being a warrior for him to be a prophesied hero so it’s very interesting that to the female protagonist grrm chose to put motherhood as the main archetype and symbol in her journey to become the hero and he played it really good I can’t emphasize how great those adwd chapters of dany how accurate he plays the mother aspect the sacrifices the thoughts the actions even her wrong ones drives from the need to protect and help her children (people) daenerys as a queen with her symbol as a mother was really one of George best the overall of it was satisfying and different than any writing of queens characters I have read and loved that he put her in feminine symbols and features
Also that’s why cat is a favorite of mine and it’s bothersome how majority of readers view her actions and the harsh judgement is same with daenerys I sometimes think that is because whilst reading their pov these two are actually hard on themselves and self judging and full of guilt and tiredness of their responsibility and how it will reflect on their children in every choice they make and you don’t see that with other characters that do lots of wrong choices but don’t reflect on them so the reader doesn’t feel it
For the record, Stormlight and Asoiaf are numbers 2 and 3 for me on my favorite series list so I feel you Bookborn! Number 1 is Dandelion Dynasty, btw
finally another ASOIAF video with a reasonable length
Obviously Tywin has a lock on worst dad, but for me, and I know there's worse moms in the series but I have a special hatred for what Sybell Spicer did to Jeyne Westerling. That's so despicable
And not telling her eldest son about the plan. He's most likely dead because of her.
@@ellec6342 she's like the female Hoster Tully in a lot of ways
@jacksonellis5865 Agreed.
House of the dragon has interesting things to say about parenting
Petition for Bookborn to do a stream with Fantasy Haven and Quinn the GM
Why did this video just pop up on my timeline how did I not know this was a thing for eleven days 😂
It’s actually funny that you bring up the Cersei-Dany parallels here because that’s actually one of George’s main disappointments in the (ultimately necessary) split of the original Dance into Feast and Dance.
He wanted the parallel stories of these two queens ruling in precarious situations while dealing with the sexism on top of it all, but couldn’t have them in the same book.
So yeah the Cersei and Dany foils are great and would love to see you do a video on them
Yeah, a friend of mine said that the parallels are much more apparent in the version of dance/feast together! But now that I know about it, I am DEF going to look for it on reread.
Every one calls him Bobby B. That’s his real world nickname
“A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire,” Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, “The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R’hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.”
“Half my army is made up of unbelievers,” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray harder."
"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
ONE REALM ONE GOD ONE KING
I didn't know Fantasy Nuttwork was a channel so I saw the title and thought you made a pun on nutting and parenthood
lovely video. Would you collab with Alt shiftx or glidus? Even preston jacobs again would be amazing!
For what it's worth I'm excited for the Caitlyn defense video. I think it's warranted and I love her. I feel like people who hate her are the sorts of people that apply purity tests to others irl
Also, Sam needs more videos showing him love because he doesn't get enough
In the video frame, if it is/was possible, Jimmy should be on the left & you should be on right, since the way Jimmy's camera/screen is placed, it feels like he is looking away from you. Interesting video nonetheless as I had never even considered the topic of parenting when it comes to asoiaf.
Totally unrelated to GoT, but how far are you in Malazan? I would love to hear a discussion between the two of you regarding the character of the Mhybe in Memories of Ice!
I really wish I could understand why people think Cersei loves her children but to me I just can’t see it. To me she is protective of them in a way that other POVs interpret as fierce love because she has never told anyone about the Maggy prophecy. From my perspective even from being in her head it seems like she thinks of her children the same way Voldemort would think about one of his Horcruxes. He was protective of them because they tethered him to life and he wanted them to be significant objects because that is a reflection of him as the person whose soul they’d contain. Cersei sees her children as tethers to life because her prophesied death can’t come to pass until her children die, and she is invested in their status because that’s socially a reflection of her as her children. I really think with how it’s repeated over and over and over (by people who don’t know her history) that Cersei’s love for her children is absolutely beyond doubt, we are essentially being told to doubt it, even before we hear the prophecy, at which point we should understand her true feelings.
I think this gets into the heart of why this is even a debate to begin with. Idk about you, but the Cersei in AFFC is not the same Cersei from the first 3 books. Yes she was always a bit short-tempered and cruel, but something clearly made her utterly unhinged and so politically reckless in AFFC that it must be on purposeful.
Of course I’m referring to the very sudden terror that seized her in the days following the sudden death of Joff, its rather suspicious circumstances, the death of her father shortly thereafter, and finally news of Tyrion’s escape (made possible via secret tunnels in the castle she sleeps in). Additionally, the mysterious Tyrell coin found in the walls, Olenna’s ambition and Margery’s beauty became suddenly more overt after her father’s death. I think she’s reached a tipping point and it manifests in the form of the RETURN of that prophecy to her nightmares and sleepless nights. As a reader, I was led to believe these visions and nightmares of hers are effectively resurfacing from a bygone era she had hoped to have forgotten. In fact, I’m even willing enough to belief she never gave that prophecy a second thought after throwing her friend into that well until AFFC. I think it is all coming back to her all at once. I think she had been repressing that prophecy most of her life and was not worried about it until her sudden dreams which she sought Qyburn for. And even in AFFC, she still thinks mockingly/arrogantly of “the old crone” after her mini victories. I can see why the readers who interpret the prophecy as something that has relentlessly plagued Cersei all her life would doubt whether the love for her children. The very fact that she is confident and determined to stop it means she does not believe in destiny, let alone prophecy. Yes, it is overwhelming to her but it’s clear she’s not the type to be inclined to prophecy in the first, especially if it involves her losing anything.The fact that her visions of that night in the tent grow more intense and vivid through the book is a good indicator that she’s effectively treading unknown water.
Lastly and perhaps most importantly, that would make for a less compelling and interesting villain. She doesn’t love her kids because of sone prophecy? Does that really sound like Cersei Lannister? I will grant you one caveat and that is that I believe people have their own unique ways of loving, and Cersei likely has odd conceptions of what love even is. She likely does view them as mere extensions of herself but she was raised by Tywin alone, and well his kids were effectively extensions of himself too.
As for the foreshadowing you speak of, I think that is meant to highlight that the only things that mean anything to her (besides herself) are her kids: her offspring aka the bare minimum. I think the real debate is in the nature of prophecy and how self-fulfilling it will prove to be. I think it’s pretty obvious that her efforts to prevent it will ironically become her true undoing as they already have with the High Sparrow trial fiasco. But yeah, compare the way she thinks of her father and brother (closest kin who genuinely love her) and compare it to her inner thoughts about her children. I mean she admires Tywin but smiles at the thought of Lord Tywin being referred to as a ‘she’ when a ship is named after him. I also think it’s more poetic and realistic if she actually does have at least one grain of decency to her.
She’s certainly not a good mother, I’ll grant you that, but that’s still very different from “not loving her kids”. There’s just not enough evidence for such a dramatic opinion. I mean, why would she NOT love her children?
The show character influences people's views a lot.
Excellent video!! Makes me want to reread again 😭
Have him back tomorrow! Jimmy is awesome!
Thank you 🙏
What I needed
I think Tyrion is more of a father figure for Cersei’s children than their actual fathers.
great video!
Great video. Just gotta quibble with one thing you guys said: Rhaegar was not Prince Charming. And the rebellion happened because Aerys murdered Ned's brother and father and called for the heads of Ned and Robert for literally no reason. Robert was fighting for his life
Loved this!
Ned Stark the great dad that brings his young son Bran to watch a man get his head cut off :D
Daenerys in the show literally forgets about her lost child immediately after. Her being a mother is not explored a t all. She always carries on Drogo's memory though.
Her being a literal mother is like that, but she’s symbolically the mother of her people, wanting to keep them safe and see them flourish. She’s based on a lot of ancient mother goddesses
17:50 lol Bobby B is actually a very common and popular nickname for King Robert in the ASOIAF fandom.
Yeah, GRRM does such an amazing job with character relationships, especially patental-children. I'm pro-Varus as a character. Even though his relationships are the most ephemeral.
Are you going to read Fire and Blood? It’s a little different than the main ASOIAF series but is such a satisfying lore dump
34:48 Exactly! Cersei loves her children, yes, but she only sees them as an extension of herself rather than independent people with their own wants and desires. Because of that, you could argue that she really doesn't, but I think she does.
About Jaime Lannister, the first time Joffrey was born he broke into the room for the Birth of his kid. It may be possible he did care at the beginning but was conditioned by Cersei to take distance from his kids.
Dont worry Bookborn! Book 6 will be out any day now, and we will see the letter!
Eyyy love to see Nutt boi on here
Whadup
@@thefantasynuttwork not much just another Berk fan prowling my favorite booktube channels 😎
@@cloudbloom I love to see it
Jaime has a conversation with tommen in affc giving him some advice after he stormed out of tywin's funeral, other than that i dont know if we have other interactions between jaime and his sons
An hours of ASOIAF! The only thing that can top this is the video movie that I know the Catelyn defense video will be! #Justice4Catelyn.