E87: More MoFi Drama-Class Action and DSD Mastering
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2022
- As well as discussing the merit and concerns over the pending Class Action lawsuit filed at the end of August against MoFi, I’ve asked Dr. David W. Robinson, Editor-in-Chief of Positive-Feedback, to share his experiences and understanding of DSD, the Direct Stream Digital recording process used for mastering records that MoFi - and many other mastering houses - have adopted.
Please don’t be daunted by the running length of today’s conversation. Take it in smaller bites over several viewings if need be. It is REALLY worth your time.
Link to Class Action Suit pending against Mobile Fidelity
www.digitalmusicnews.com/wp-c...
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This has been, by far, the best breakdown of this subject. Forget the Mofi screwup. I’m sure there are heads rolling as we speak. The takeaway for me is that Quad DSD is the archive process of choice- today- with current technology. Super important as OG tapes age, become chemically unstable etc. Every record label should be “quietly” scrambling to archive this way to preserve our musical heritage. Then we can argue and debate the merits of the best playback options.
Hello Roland. It is SO validating to see that SO MANY of my viewers are now aware of the reality of the situation, thanks to David's enlightening conversation, and UNDERSTANDING why we took the time to deliver this detailed and important content. In short, people are "GETTING' it!
I'm an "analogue" guy for sure, but digital is a must to "preserve" our art! It was never the "digital" I had the problem with, it was the "low resolution" of the early digital! You have "quad DSD" now , and that's a blessing! I have no problem with my record's being cut from DSD 256 as much as I love analogue! This is a very "enlightening" "eye opening" video for me!
I first heard A DSD audio file about 2 years ago and couldn't believe my ears. Now I only listen to a digital audio file that is at least DSD256 and run it through my DAC and I'm loving it!
Thanks so much for posting this interview with Dr. Robinson! It all had to happen the way it did, I guess, and maybe it's a good thing after all because of the spotlight being put upon the DSD music format. I believe it is now more popular and accepted than ever from what I'm seeing. A special thanks to you for making videos like this one and your Andreas Koch interviews educating people on this subject.
The pleasure was entirely ours! Thank YOU for watching and caring!
Really enlightening conversation. I especially like the comment at the end about Abbey Road needing to do quad DSD transfers of their tapes. We need more companies in the quad DSD game, especially since not everyone likes MOFI’s mastering choices.
Thank you so very much Dave and Greg. This was excellent, and I truly appreciate all the backstories!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Wow! Bravo Greg! That’s the best damn audio related video I’ve ever watched and I watch a lot of CZcams. Thank you sir
Hello, Mike. Thank you so much. I'm SO glad you enjoyed this...
Great discussion.
I hope you plan on expanding the topic of mastering. Live vs studio, CD mix vs radio mix vs DSD, adding fake tape/record noise etc...
I have at least one of those early CDs clearly made for radio. It sounds just fine in my car but once I play it on my Maggies + subs or my STAX ... ugh
Hi Greg. Thank you for posting this discussion. I learned a lot about the topic, especially about DSD.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks for watching. I'm glad you enjoyed this content...
Incredible interview. Thank you.
Fantastic conversation! Hope to have a martini with you at the next show! I learned a few things today!
Great and educational content. I've got 15 UD1S and I'm very happy with the sound of them now as I were back when I bought them. Only issue from Mofi was the lack of transparency. Thanks for the video.
Hello Ruben. While I have only purchased nine of the remarkable UD1S released (I'm not a "collector," per se, so I've only purchased titles that I will listen to), with one exception, they have been EXCEPTIONAL. The one letdown for me was the Simon and Garfunkel, "Bridge Over Troubled Water." Don't misunderstand me, I LOVE the songs, and this is likely the best sounding version of this LP out there. But to my mind, the original recordings just weren't that good, or deserving of this über treatment... No hate please. Just my personal sense of this release.
@@theaudioanalyst those 15 i own are incredible and i like them all regarding music per se. I passed out some releases just because they weren't for my taste really. Funny that Simon and Garfunkel was the worst of them all for me also and I ended selling it. Some of the future releases won't be for my taste so I'll pass. For sure I'll get Thriller, some Van Halen, Miles Davis ones and Hotel California. It's a pity they are so expensive here, back in Europe. Nevertheless UD1S are some the best records I own regarding sound quality. Simply amazing records. Take care
I saw the hr and a half play time and thought I'll watch a bit over the next 3 days or so! ...
Started an hr and a half or so ago... Lol... One hit...
When you talk Greg... It seems appropriate to listen and learn (mostly 😉)... But now I find myself saying thanks to you for letting us listen to David R.
... A thoroughly engrossing conversation and a great wind down at the end of a busy day for me... Thanks guys, I really appreciated this one.
Absolutely Positive feedback from me.
👍🏻
Very informative, thanks
Generally a very interesting and informative discussion. However, the conclusion that 4xDSD is indistinguishably from the source is a little flawed. First he mentioned that via 8xDSD or 16xDSD, there is still a little extra something to hear, and also he didn't tell us which genre they heard to when comparing 4xDSD to the tape source.
In my experience - which is in line with common knowledge, every analogue device does something to the sound, be it pleasing or not. So a AD/DA conversion in the chain is no exception. In my own testing via a RME AD/DA 4xDSD - a well regarded device, maybe not the top of the top? - the signal lost a little definition and smoothness in the high-end, so there is that.
Certainly I agree though, that super high-resolution digital is the future for producers and archivists.
Greg, if a pop rock group records in 96/24 hi-rez, and then produces vinyl LP's, will the result be labeled as a Digital Mastered LP? Should Digital mastered vinyl recordings be called DVD's {Digital Vinyl Discs}?
eye opening...thanks
Wonderful video. Thanks to both of you. I enjoy vinyl for the old-school analog experience, and a big part of the authenticity for me is that the records are AAA, cut directly from analog tapes. I'm not sure I will ever get behind the idea of digitally sourced vinyl records. I'm all for MoFi archiving all of this historical music as state of the art DSD files and selling it as SACDs. Maybe I'll even start buying some of those now that we know the truth.
Thanks for watching and writing! As to being not sure you can "ever get behind the idea of digitally sourced vinyl records," I'd only ask that you listen for yourself BEFORE you decide.
@@theaudioanalyst I'm newer to your channel and still catching up on old vids, so sorry if you've gone over this. Do you often find yourself preferring a digital sourced vinyl record, over just listening to the digital file directly? The added "warmth" that is often mentioned?
@@rhaybans This is such a challenging question to answer briefly. First, may I recommend that you take a look at some my previous Episodes (and some of the reviews - available at my website, whose link is posted in every Description section of each episode) here on the channel, like Episode 14: The Real Virtues of Vinyl - Pt. 1 (czcams.com/video/qUcbIJNEfYU/video.html), Episode 15: The Real Virtues of Vinyl - Pt. 2 (czcams.com/video/wBqCgzauLuE/video.html), Episode 58: The Vinyl Advantage (czcams.com/video/IbZQsIesSZM/video.html), and Episode 84: The Vinyl Condition (czcams.com/video/f7nB_xi8PkI/video.html). These should afford you a little more insight into the advantages I ascribe to a state-of-the-art LP Transcription system.
But briefly, it is not so much a sense of “warmth,” which may be misinterpreted as some kind of “alteration,” or “artifact,” of the medium, but rather, it is more of their ability to render and recreate that sense of naturalness, as well as to more naturally and effortlessly portray spatial and dimensional attributes of recordings, the size and feel of the hall or venue, and the locations, sizes, and interrelationships of voices of the individual instruments, including human voices, more faithfully. Good LPs on an exceptional ‘table/arm/cart that is WELL SET UP, just present music more authentically overall than most digital music recreation systems, regardless of the provenance of the original “source,” be that an original source tape or an excellent DSD256 master.
One of the best breakdowns I’ve seen 👍🏻
Many thanks!
GREAT VID BROTHER!!! if anything positive comes from all this, i hope it will be an industry standard that will be put into place, be it a spars code or hopefully full detailed chain of the manufacturing process from the source material used through the mix, mastering and even the vinyl composition. the consumer(especially all of us hardcore audio quality nerds) deserve it and it will only help and grow our wonderful hobby i would think.. \m/ \m/
I think all of us share your hope for an updated implementation of the SPARS code, the three-position alphabetic classification system (like DDD, AAD, etc. first used on the Compact Disc) developed in the early 1980s by the Society of Professional Audio Recording Services. Such an implementation would be VERY helpful to providing better transparency to an LPs provenance.
Morning uk time I Hope everyone is safe and well 😁 I own and will continue to buy mofi records they just sound too good well so far the ones I own do and to me that's what counts, I get people feel lied to and let's face it mofi could have been more forthcoming but its now out in the open, let me ask a question does the album now sound different to you now you know its taken from a digital recording ? No they don't, I suggested to mofi that they should offer to sell the dsd recordings along side the vinyl giving us the choice the said no plans at this time ( give it a year and we will see, just makes sense ), I have never had the pleasure of listening to dsd64 or above in its native format and would love to but so far there are no sites offering the music I listen to, I mean no disrespect but I don't listen to classical opera jazz etc more pop dire straits etc and there simply isn't any content available. I wish tidal or qobuz or better still mofi would give us an option, hell mofi has them already converted so storage shouldn't be a problem the delivery system is for now something tidal qobuz etc already have fixed, why now join forces so we the consumer can enjoy dsd64 and above, can you imagine the music direct catalogue digitised to dsd64 or higher and made available for us to buy, in my opinion this is the way to go all musical tastes covered and ready available and all groups whither it be vinyl or digital etc also covered then it's down to our choice anyway I hope everyone stays safe please take care 😁
Hello, Paul. Thanks for writing... Your post pretty much sums up the main points of our conversation, save for MoFi releasing the files as digital downloads.
You should know that most ALL of the titles that have been released as UD1S LPs, which are released as 2 X 45RPM,180g LP boxed sets - or now the similar 33RPM single 180G LP releases for about $25 less - ARE available on Super Audio Compact Disc, which is DSD64... But most of us WOULD prefer the DSD256 downloads.
Finally the Bullshit is over- Proper DSD whether on Vinyl or C.D. version is Great - What the future holds bill be interesting - I'm a old Fart 80 & still enjoy Quality recordings
Just preserve our analog history by dsd 256 and enjoy our analog past.
Do you think The Beatles Lp's will be done using digital process?
Hello again, David. It's been done...
"Instead, therefore, the vinyl has been remastered from digital sources. These were created, before the CD box sets were released, at a rate of 24bit/192kHz."
Here is just one reference to the process. www.reuters.com/article/us-beatles-remastered/original-beatles-digitally-remastered-idUSTRE5363RN20090407
Great discussion. I have learned a lot.
Mr. Pete--------->
aging hippie
Hello David. THANK YOU for posting; I'm SO glad you enjoyed this content. This is SUCH an enlightening discussion with Dr. Robinson... I sincerely hope folks take the time to listen to all the remarkably relevant information presented here. The takeaway from this shared wealth of knowledge will bring many listeners a new and immeasurable sense of understanding.
Wow... F'n AMAZING! Changed my whole world view. *PEOPLE NEED TO SEE THIS!!!* Interesting what he said about Abbey Road... I would LOVE to know what he thinks of all their 'High Tech' 1/2 speed remastering using only PCM...? I bet he would have some things to say about that. Damn funny guy too! What a great, dry sense of humour!
We're SO GLAD you got what we were layin' down... Thanks for watching and taking the time to write!
@@theaudioanalyst Yep! Even though I have a completely nonexistent site, just for odds & ends, and 1 really nice 4 part series on a DIY Ultrasonic RCM 😊I posted a 1 minute video showing your video screen above and giving the link, and explaining how frigg'n *LIFE CHANGING* and educational the video is and that they absolutely *HAVE TO SEE IT!*
@@latheofheaven WOW, how very kind of you! THANKS!
Hey guys really enjoyed the video a lot I've also actually made a video based on your discussion One thing I would want to point out and I've just listening to it now where you say that mofi never did actually say it was from the master tapes.
there's been a number of people that were emailing mofi and asking them if there is a digital source material.
they have it in writing in the emails Mobile Fidelity said the records we're making are from the original master tapes referring to the one steps
Hello Ron. In the strictest sense of the statement, they were...
The DSD transfers were made from the best recording master available to MoFi at the time they were creating the transfer, be that an original, a safety master, or whatever cutting master was available to them for the process. The records were then cut from those transfers. As a result, the records are a result of, and a creation made from, the original tapes…
Please recall that after the June 1, 2008 Universal Studios fire it has been asserted anywhere between 118,000 to 175,000 audio master tapes were destroyed. It will be very unlikely to have access to many “original” master tapes any longer. We will have to be satisfied with whatever early generation safety or cutting masters are still in existence.
Again, this is NOT a problem that MoFi can be held responsible for. As Dr. Robinson and I both suggest, the real issue is their unwillingness to acknowledge the DSD transfer as part of the process…
All I want from MOFI is the original dsd264 files. Then they can be redeemed.
Kept on waiting for those red Daleks to just close in and finish him off... 🙂
Interesting, but those whistling sibilant S sounds are painful to listen to.
David made this conversation interesting and very sensible. If you think about your old cassettes and how long they lasted after you recorded, re-recorded, re-recorded and played them, (the degradation that happen over the years) this all makes sense, you have a finite resource that you have to figure a way to preserve. You have to start getting out of the purist mentality and realize that it’s about the music first, last and always.
Greg was right, and David was wrong the announcement wasn’t for 50,000 copies it was 40,000 copies through tons of online resources including Music Direct, which it is still on their site right now. The lawsuits are silly and purist are butt hurt because they bet the farm on analogue was better than digital and now when they find out they have been listening to digital, they are hurt and want to retaliate toward someone because they look stupid for their snobbery. I think if this goes to court and a hearing test like David had and people can’t hear the difference in court, the lawsuit may be over.
Enjoy music for what it is and not for what you want it to be. Mofi was and deceptive and I’m making no excuses for them and it wasn’t right how this was handled, but the music has to be preserved due to companies not allowing you to run their tapes into the ground. You have to make a copy that will last and not have all of the problems of the original tapes so that we can continue to make records.
I listen to and enjoy all formats because it’s about the music and getting the best reproduction available. I agree with David, the maximum amount getting to the maximum amount of people so that everyone can enjoy it. Greg thank you for making sense out of what has been senseless for many. This is why MoFi and no company or person ever says sorry or I messed up, because we sue people over everything and we then wonder why honesty and integrity are in the toilet. Keep the great content coming Greg.
I don't mind the DSD step ... as I also have many SACD's and a very good SACD player. they sound terrific ... will not join any class action.
Hello Eric. Thanks for your thoughts here. I'm in agreement as to not minding the DSD mastering. In fact, I'm GLAD they have been doing that... 😉