I respect this comment so much. The biggest issue most sound techs have is that they sometimes feel they can’t be taught anything new. Idk how many times a church has had me fill in when a sound tech needed to travel or something. People are amazed at the improvement and practically beg the church to keep it the same forever. But When the sound tech gets back he/she’s not only extremely defensive but usually changes it back within a few weeks.
@@gwillonthebass You are 100% right. I am a musician, and I do the production advance for the band, We travel with our own IEM monitor system and wireless vox mics. I deal with so many house sound guys. (I'm going to say guys, because when I've had to deal with women audio people there hasn't been issues, some good, some not so good but no ego BS ever)There are three types. 1. The Old Sound Guy that's been doing it forever and will drop any name of anyone in the industry that he's brushed up on. Most of them are as you describe. They know everything. They let you know this. They assume you are an idiot that knows nothing. They are bad at their job, & blame everything on every one & everything (your top $ equipment that they know nothing about)but themselves. It's a horrible, long anxiety ridden day (and bad sound)because they are unable to think someone might know something about their own sound, and what they need and require. 2. The Future good audio engineer. Usually a younger person that knows what they’re doing knows their gear, and is able to communicate in a back and forth way, and truly wants to make it a good show and do their best. 3. The Pro. Always the easiest to deal with. No Ego, enjoys their job. Everything on their end is already setup because you've communicated, and they've actually read though what you sent them. (unlike the first guy that knows everything)You can't wait to go back to that venue, because you know the sound will be great, You'll learn a thing or two, and it will be a fun, easy stress free day. So, going back to what this video is about, Listening is the key to good audio, in Every aspect.
This is my first Audio University video. I appreciate the production of your video. You weren’t assuming, arrogant, or pretentious like so many CZcamsrs are. The pace of the video was steady, and the content was fitting for this video, as opposed to cramming it all in one video. Much appreciation for you guys.
I have always done ear training as a musician, but the concept of listening as an egineer has somehow eluded me all of these years. I now listen to every song in a different way. I find myself scrutinizing mixes, compression ammounts, auto tune, etc., when it used to be purely about the songs themselves. As a novice producer with 30 years of being a musician, I can't believe how much free knowledge is available now days, thanks to the internet and folks like those at Audio University. This is probably my favorite channel to learn from. Thanks so much and keep up the great work!
Ear training is something most musicians leanr either through experience or through courses. It is so much more important to producing music than people think! What a great lesson for something most people don't think about!
Recently I have found myself singing these vowels along with mixes to find frequencies - and now I see this video! Explains what I have been doing without knowing why, thanks!
"Associating vowel sounds to frequency bands" - I stumbled on to this discovery a few weeks ago! With my mouth I started emulating the sound of white noise with a filter sweeping through it and it finally clicked that I can use the connection between that sound and the frequency spectrum somehow to improve my mixing and ability to identify frequencies. I've been looking for content that could expand on this theory further and BOOM! Thank you, Audio University!
Simply brilliant. Incidentally, a mnemonic occurred to me as I was watching, and now it will be impossible for me to forget at least 250 and 1k: “twOO-fifty” and “wAAhn-kay.”
This is seriously genius because words are indeed sounds and phonics of Vowels have free airflow so a constant push which opens up the mouth so this makes extreme sense beyond a basic comprehension. Like how consonants and consonance are similar.
Wow, this is a fantastic tip! I have never heard anyone else explain it like this, and while I'm a complete newbie, I heard the vowels immediately. Definitely bookmarking this video right away - thank you so much!
I highly respect the fact that you ask people to like and subscribe After your presentation, that alone is so valuable! Big thumbs up, Im learning so much from this channel!
I’ve seen a lot of ads (on CZcams and other places) claiming to have a “revolutionary new way” to train your ear and it’s always been bunk. BUT THIS ACTUALLY WORKS FOR ME 0_0!! I’m legit excited, I’ve struggled for years to get ahold of “anchor points” to help me better understand where sounds are on the frequency spectrum and, suddenly even after just this limited exposure, I feel like I’ve gained traction on the whole concept. It’ll take some practice, but I think this will work! Thank you so much for describing this!!!
Legit, you make the best videos one can find on CZcams. Clean editing, confidence, proficiency. Its easy to see you're passionate about helping people. Appreciate everything you do Kyle!!
I have always wondered, why frequency bands are displayed how they are. Yes, I know it's logarithmic, but that itself doesn't say so much to me at least. That octave division just opened my eyes! It's that simple!
if i cut 250hz, i'll most the time see if the octave needs cut too. finding the problem frequency is usually by boosting a frequency and sweeping it like you said you used to do till it matches what i'm aiming for. i like your suggestion of vowels and training your ear. great video.
Just looked at your guy’s website and Omg! I have been telling myself how I wish I was able to take some kind of course to learn what I’m doing, and you guys are my answered prayer 🙏🏾 much love 💕
I actually noticed this a while ago, Only been producing 3 n a half years but now that I’m seeing this video I wish I didn’t ignore these sounds before…
It almost sounds unintuitive to associate vowel sounds to frequencies but actually this is what we do vocally-- EQ the harmonic series being generated by your vocal chords themselves-- *_meaning vowel sounds are created from the mouth shape itself which acts as an EQ to the sound being generated by the vocal chords_* . This is why you can play white noise through a phone (aiming the speaking into your mouth) and create vowel shapes (without actually phonating) and it shapes that white noise into vowel sounds.
Very well said, Rem Wind! Check out this video to see a demonstration of what you're describing with a talkbox: czcams.com/video/0fckQLQWhe0/video.html
Thank you so much Kyle. I've been watching this channel for some time and it is really worth, every tip and trick. Thank you once again. Best of luck to you!!!
This video is absolutely amazing as an audio engineer I see a lot of the same thing repeated on CZcams this video definitely stands out and definitely focuses on improving audio engineers I want to take the time to thank you for this and especially thank you for being different!
Man this was awesome! I'm only a light hobbyist, but I enjoy diving in to audio stuff. This was really cool and helps to personify (?) the elements of a mix a bit. Also great job blending the subjectivity and objectivity of mixing.
Wow this sounds magical you know, I didn’t even know that I can detect frequencies use my own body 😮😮 and great fuel bcoz am sure am gonna improve on my listening ability.
This is such a smart way to look (listen) at/to this. I'm familiar enough with the frequency spectrum to be in the ballpark every time, but I usually find that I often tend to miss the problem area with about an octave, and so I end up doing the good ol' "sweep-around", which is a bit fatiguing at times. Especially when EQ'ing highly distorted guitars. Thanks!
I'm glad you found it valuable! Make sure to get the free guide here: audiouniversityonline.com/ear-training-guide/ Learning this had a huge impact on me - I'm glad to share this technique with you! Good luck!
when you released this i had already started ear training in some way by looking for frequencies, but this is really about to help me across the board!
Using vowels to learn different frequencies is a pretty solid advice. Do you have any tips how to estimate the dB amount needed to flatten the EQ? Is there anything better than "lots of practice"? Obviously you can just twist the knob until it sounds good but if you know before turning the knob that you want about 2 dB vs 5 dB, it would improve your workflow a lot.
Wow this is perfect! I've internalised that 1kHz is "ah" from a virtual riot video ages ago in it has always been super useful bit I've never had a proper sound for other frequency ranges. This fixes it
Guys, the best ever way to learn this is by commissioning sound masking system. After six zones done, you will have a new sound world opened in your mind🙃It is a very good video to put you on the right path but remember the practice makes the master! 😊
When you said to guess the vowel, I guessed with no confidence but it was actually right!!! Guess my hearing isn’t actually as bad as I thought 😂 thanks for restoring my confidence
This video was my “holy f***ing sh*t” video. I’ve been recently recording my own EP and when you said “over time you will learn to speak the language of the tools…” and that’s when it dawned on me.. I can hear some slight “EE’s” and “oo’s” in a couple places. Which is going to tell me exactly where on the spectrum the frequency is. So instead of finding the frequency by sweeping and possible taking out frequencies that need to be there, it eliminates that. Gives you a much smaller area to find the specific frequency you’re looking for. Just say to yourself “what do you hear? What does it sound like?” Will often help you identify your issue. Well I’ll be…
So like…..I thought I needed this video but I guess I don’t give my ears enough credit. I always knew I had amazing hearing (not perfect pitch) but damn, my hearing is amazing pinpointing frequencies. Anyway, I still watched the video! Sharing this to my producer homies. Thank you so much for your detailed and easy explanation.
Can you please make one of these but for compression? I have a hard time knowing how much/when to use compression, as a result my mixes often sound flat, because I usually end up just slamming the dynamics in mastering completely.
Funny, I've never thought of frequency bands as vowels, but I could tell what vowels certain bands would be ahead of time once you put on the pink noise and started boosting them.
Excellent thanks the funny thing is I've been noticing I can feel good frequencies more than I can hear them I get a good feeling about a mix more than the sound
I tried an experiment recently, and it surprised me. I fed a signal from the bottom string of a few good bass guitars into a spectrum analyser. Just flat from the pickups, no eq at all. It turns out that most of the acoustic energy is NOT at the fundemental (41 HZ) but at the second, and to some extent fourth harmonics! So some of the "conventional wisdom" about sitting bass guitar in a mix may be a bit flawed?
I never heard of this ear training! It's not interval training like in music theory, where you identify the distance between two pitches. I tried the ear training website you mentioned and it was interesting and was surprised that I could actually identify frequencies! I haven't recorded and mixed any songs of my own yet and I don't even have all the equipment right now... but this was encouraging!
Download the free Ear Training Guide to get a quick start practicing this method...
audiouniversityonline.com/ear-training-guide/
Really digging the content here. Thanks!
Thanks, Jason!
for beginners into engineer ...how do I get started ?
@temitope odus, the best way to get started is to get the basic equipment you need and start practicing!
filled out the form, never got the email
Great stuff! I've been doing live sound for 25 years and never thought of using vowels. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks.
Nice! It is also useful for ringing out wedges. The vowel sounds apply to the narrow-band tones of feedback too!!
😄👏🏽👏🏽
I respect this comment so much. The biggest issue most sound techs have is that they sometimes feel they can’t be taught anything new.
Idk how many times a church has had me fill in when a sound tech needed to travel or something. People are amazed at the improvement and practically beg the church to keep it the same forever.
But When the sound tech gets back he/she’s not only extremely defensive but usually changes it back within a few weeks.
@@gwillonthebass You are 100% right. I am a musician, and I do the production advance for the band, We travel with our own IEM monitor system and wireless vox mics. I deal with so many house sound guys. (I'm going to say guys, because when I've had to deal with women audio people there hasn't been issues, some good, some not so good but no ego BS ever)There are three types. 1. The Old Sound Guy that's been doing it forever and will drop any name of anyone in the industry that he's brushed up on. Most of them are as you describe. They know everything. They let you know this. They assume you are an idiot that knows nothing. They are bad at their job, & blame everything on every one & everything (your top $ equipment that they know nothing about)but themselves. It's a horrible, long anxiety ridden day (and bad sound)because they are unable to think someone might know something about their own sound, and what they need and require. 2. The Future good audio engineer. Usually a younger person that knows what they’re doing knows their gear, and is able to communicate in a back and forth way, and truly wants to make it a good show and do their best. 3. The Pro. Always the easiest to deal with. No Ego, enjoys their job. Everything on their end is already setup because you've communicated, and they've actually read though what you sent them. (unlike the first guy that knows everything)You can't wait to go back to that venue, because you know the sound will be great, You'll learn a thing or two, and it will be a fun, easy stress free day. So, going back to what this video is about, Listening is the key to good audio, in Every aspect.
@@johndennis9838 spot on. Great explanation.
This is my first Audio University video. I appreciate the production of your video. You weren’t assuming, arrogant, or pretentious like so many CZcamsrs are. The pace of the video was steady, and the content was fitting for this video, as opposed to cramming it all in one video.
Much appreciation for you guys.
Thanks, Levi! I’m glad you discovered Audio University!
I have always done ear training as a musician, but the concept of listening as an egineer has somehow eluded me all of these years. I now listen to every song in a different way. I find myself scrutinizing mixes, compression ammounts, auto tune, etc., when it used to be purely about the songs themselves. As a novice producer with 30 years of being a musician, I can't believe how much free knowledge is available now days, thanks to the internet and folks like those at Audio University. This is probably my favorite channel to learn from. Thanks so much and keep up the great work!
Ear training is something most musicians leanr either through experience or through courses. It is so much more important to producing music than people think! What a great lesson for something most people don't think about!
I'm sure I am echoing everyone else when I say that your forward, no-nonsense style is a breath of fresh air in this community
Ever since I started doing ear training on a regular basis with Train Your Ears software, my mixing ability has improved a ton
Recently I have found myself singing these vowels along with mixes to find frequencies - and now I see this video! Explains what I have been doing without knowing why, thanks!
I am a complete amateur when it comes to music tech and sound engineering and you've just completely blown my mind. Thank you very much
Glad you enjoyed it, Liam! Thanks for watching.
"Associating vowel sounds to frequency bands" - I stumbled on to this discovery a few weeks ago! With my mouth I started emulating the sound of white noise with a filter sweeping through it and it finally clicked that I can use the connection between that sound and the frequency spectrum somehow to improve my mixing and ability to identify frequencies. I've been looking for content that could expand on this theory further and BOOM! Thank you, Audio University!
That’s awesome, MGM TheGrand! Glad you found the channel!
Big cap right here.. you didn't know shit before watching this video.
Simply brilliant. Incidentally, a mnemonic occurred to me as I was watching, and now it will be impossible for me to forget at least 250 and 1k: “twOO-fifty” and “wAAhn-kay.”
Genius 🙏🏽
Been mixing and mastering since 2000, you never stop learning.
This is seriously genius because words are indeed sounds and phonics of Vowels have free airflow so a constant push which opens up the mouth so this makes extreme sense beyond a basic comprehension. Like how consonants and consonance are similar.
Man, this trick is extremely helpful. Much gratitude.
Glad to hear that, @Memphis!
Wow, this is a fantastic tip! I have never heard anyone else explain it like this, and while I'm a complete newbie, I heard the vowels immediately. Definitely bookmarking this video right away - thank you so much!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching! Be sure to download the free guide! (Link in the description)
jesus this youtube channel is a freaking goldmine
this is the first channel i "hit the notification bell" for haha
I highly respect the fact that you ask people to like and subscribe After your presentation, that alone is so valuable! Big thumbs up, Im learning so much from this channel!
This is one of those rare lessons that applies equally to musicians as well as audio engineers
I’ve seen a lot of ads (on CZcams and other places) claiming to have a “revolutionary new way” to train your ear and it’s always been bunk. BUT THIS ACTUALLY WORKS FOR ME 0_0!! I’m legit excited, I’ve struggled for years to get ahold of “anchor points” to help me better understand where sounds are on the frequency spectrum and, suddenly even after just this limited exposure, I feel like I’ve gained traction on the whole concept. It’ll take some practice, but I think this will work! Thank you so much for describing this!!!
Glad to help, Jay!
As a newcomer to audio detailing / mixing, I found this a cool way to learn and describe the khz! Will be looking out for more methods like this
Legit, you make the best videos one can find on CZcams. Clean editing, confidence, proficiency. Its easy to see you're passionate about helping people. Appreciate everything you do Kyle!!
Wow! Thanks, Jordan. I'm glad you are enjoying them.
@@AudioUniversity Your work does not go unnoticed man! Keep up the good work!
I have always wondered, why frequency bands are displayed how they are. Yes, I know it's logarithmic, but that itself doesn't say so much to me at least. That octave division just opened my eyes! It's that simple!
Glad to help, Aki!
Wow. Until now I've never heard of this. Frequencies by vowel sounds. This helps
That's awesome! I've never heard of that. Thank you!
Best video! Makes sense on how the vowels for singing works to achieve high notes o low notes... everything makes sense! Thanks for this work.
It really works. I close my eyes in the second example and got it correct
if i cut 250hz, i'll most the time see if the octave needs cut too. finding the problem frequency is usually by boosting a frequency and sweeping it like you said you used to do till it matches what i'm aiming for. i like your suggestion of vowels and training your ear. great video.
This is a game changer, I can see myself identify the frequencies.
Just looked at your guy’s website and Omg! I have been telling myself how I wish I was able to take some kind of course to learn what I’m doing, and you guys are my answered prayer 🙏🏾 much love 💕
this is so much faster than just hunting for the frequency, and the result seems more musical
Never thought of this before, but I heard the vowels clearly before you even sai what they were. Amazing!
Why anyone told me this until today?? OMG thank you!
I actually noticed this a while ago, Only been producing 3 n a half years but now that I’m seeing this video I wish I didn’t ignore these sounds before…
It almost sounds unintuitive to associate vowel sounds to frequencies but actually this is what we do vocally-- EQ the harmonic series being generated by your vocal chords themselves-- *_meaning vowel sounds are created from the mouth shape itself which acts as an EQ to the sound being generated by the vocal chords_* . This is why you can play white noise through a phone (aiming the speaking into your mouth) and create vowel shapes (without actually phonating) and it shapes that white noise into vowel sounds.
Very well said, Rem Wind! Check out this video to see a demonstration of what you're describing with a talkbox: czcams.com/video/0fckQLQWhe0/video.html
I found your channel just now because somebody shared this in a Facebook group. A long journey ahead, I suppose.
Thank you so much Kyle. I've been watching this channel for some time and it is really worth, every tip and trick. Thank you once again. Best of luck to you!!!
Thank you, @Minuk Dilmith! I really appreciate you watching and commenting! Let me know if you have suggestions for future videos!
This video is absolutely amazing as an audio engineer I see a lot of the same thing repeated on CZcams this video definitely stands out and definitely focuses on improving audio engineers I want to take the time to thank you for this and especially thank you for being different!
Man this was awesome! I'm only a light hobbyist, but I enjoy diving in to audio stuff. This was really cool and helps to personify (?) the elements of a mix a bit. Also great job blending the subjectivity and objectivity of mixing.
Thanks, Andrew! Glad to help.
just curious what do you do for work?
Wow this sounds magical you know, I didn’t even know that I can detect frequencies use my own body 😮😮 and great fuel bcoz am sure am gonna improve on my listening ability.
I found this lesson very helpful. Associating formants to frequencies truncates a lot of time that I don't have. Thanks!
Damn, that is impressive in its simplicity. Awesome.
I thought the same thing when I first learned it! Thanks for watching, Artersa!
Thank you for sharing this! I can't believe how much power is in something like this....what a game changer
Glad you enjoyed it, Afterift! Thanks!
This is such a smart way to look (listen) at/to this. I'm familiar enough with the frequency spectrum to be in the ballpark every time, but I usually find that I often tend to miss the problem area with about an octave, and so I end up doing the good ol' "sweep-around", which is a bit fatiguing at times. Especially when EQ'ing highly distorted guitars. Thanks!
my man audio university bringing dat quality contentttt eyyyy! thanks dude!
I'm glad you found it valuable! Make sure to get the free guide here: audiouniversityonline.com/ear-training-guide/
Learning this had a huge impact on me - I'm glad to share this technique with you! Good luck!
@@AudioUniversity thank you for the guide! :D
when you released this i had already started ear training in some way by looking for frequencies, but this is really about to help me across the board!
I love how your videos are short and sweet ! 🔥 thank you for the help always !!
I love the way you deliver information in your vids
Using vowels to learn different frequencies is a pretty solid advice. Do you have any tips how to estimate the dB amount needed to flatten the EQ? Is there anything better than "lots of practice"? Obviously you can just twist the knob until it sounds good but if you know before turning the knob that you want about 2 dB vs 5 dB, it would improve your workflow a lot.
Man I really wish someone would answer this question!
Wow this is perfect! I've internalised that 1kHz is "ah" from a virtual riot video ages ago in it has always been super useful bit I've never had a proper sound for other frequency ranges. This fixes it
this is the best audio mixing related content i've seen. you won a sub!
Thanks, BNK!
Guys, the best ever way to learn this is by commissioning sound masking system. After six zones done, you will have a new sound world opened in your mind🙃It is a very good video to put you on the right path but remember the practice makes the master! 😊
When you said to guess the vowel, I guessed with no confidence but it was actually right!!! Guess my hearing isn’t actually as bad as I thought 😂 thanks for restoring my confidence
😂 No problem, Ian. Thanks for watching!
This will probably save me several hours of EQ. Great video!
Thanks, Edgardo! Glad to help!
VERY GOOD AND SIMPLE VIDEO
Brilliant! My 2nd video of yours I've watched and now subscribed as a result 🙌🤟
Thanks for the training Kyle! Very valuable info
This video was my “holy f***ing sh*t” video. I’ve been recently recording my own EP and when you said “over time you will learn to speak the language of the tools…” and that’s when it dawned on me.. I can hear some slight “EE’s” and “oo’s” in a couple places. Which is going to tell me exactly where on the spectrum the frequency is. So instead of finding the frequency by sweeping and possible taking out frequencies that need to be there, it eliminates that. Gives you a much smaller area to find the specific frequency you’re looking for. Just say to yourself “what do you hear? What does it sound like?” Will often help you identify your issue.
Well I’ll be…
I had missed this one. Good that you pointed out in your last video!
I have recommended it in a music production group I am participating.
Thanks, Korkenknopfus! I appreciate you helping to spread the word about Audio University!
So like…..I thought I needed this video but I guess I don’t give my ears enough credit. I always knew I had amazing hearing (not perfect pitch) but damn, my hearing is amazing pinpointing frequencies. Anyway, I still watched the video! Sharing this to my producer homies. Thank you so much for your detailed and easy explanation.
Thanks for watching, JKuda!
Consistency is key for everything!
Agreed, Daniel! Thanks.
this information is very valuable. thanks!
Glad you like it, DYOB! Thanks for watching.
Can you please make one of these but for compression? I have a hard time knowing how much/when to use compression, as a result my mixes often sound flat, because I usually end up just slamming the dynamics in mastering completely.
Always great info and never annoying gimmicks or ads
It makes so much sense now, I already thought that for example dubstep growls that are made with filter sweeps sound like "oooaahaaahooo" 😄
Wow that website is soo amazing, im really impressed. Keep up the great work!!
Thanks, Clemy!
Amazing! What a concept! And I heard straight away, very interesting ideas!
Thanks for watching, jawmunji!
As a simple guitarist this is awesome
Amazing video... This would change the way I mix drastically. Thanks a lot!
This is what i have been looking for save for watch later then
Most useful video yet. Great service being provided!
Thanks, Michael! I’m glad you found this video helpful! Please, let me know if you have ideas for subjects you’d like me to explore in future videos.
I totally forgot about ear training I need to go back to it. I have Soar pro though.
That was really interesting. Thanx 4 the information
You nailed this one, this really works..
This is so incredibly helpful!
Yo this is huge!! Thank you so much!
Wow impressive. Thanks !
Interestingly cool idea for ear training AU! Also, will this improve my sound selection of samples or only frequency identification? Thanks!
Can you do a video on the lower and higher frequencies that you didn't get to in this video? Thanks and keep up the great content!
Funny, I've never thought of frequency bands as vowels, but I could tell what vowels certain bands would be ahead of time once you put on the pink noise and started boosting them.
Brilliant! So easy. Thanks alot
Just found the channel today, subbed much respect from the UK
You earned a subscriber! This was so good!
Dude, mind blown 🤯
Really useful video. Thanks man!
Excellent thanks the funny thing is I've been noticing I can feel good frequencies more than I can hear them I get a good feeling about a mix more than the sound
Great tip! The listener will ultimately judge the product on how it makes them feel!
Great video and I just subscribed! Thank you for sharing!
I tried an experiment recently, and it surprised me. I fed a signal from the bottom string of a few good bass guitars into a spectrum analyser. Just flat from the pickups, no eq at all.
It turns out that most of the acoustic energy is NOT at the fundemental (41 HZ) but at the second, and to some extent fourth harmonics! So some of the "conventional wisdom" about sitting bass guitar in a mix may be a bit flawed?
That’s an interesting observation, David! Thanks for sharing.
I never heard of this ear training! It's not interval training like in music theory, where you identify the distance between two pitches. I tried the ear training website you mentioned and it was interesting and was surprised that I could actually identify frequencies! I haven't recorded and mixed any songs of my own yet and I don't even have all the equipment right now... but this was encouraging!
This is a awesome channel. Thank you so much keep up the good work.
I learned a lot, this is very helpful! Thanks
This was so cool!
Huge thanks, the ear training was really cool
Glad you enjoyed it!
Appreciate the information bro, respect
I'm gonna test this with my songs, thank you
Thanks!
Great job thanks 🙏
Yup, lots of bowel sounds around my house, like an out of tune trombone....oh wait, you said VOWEL sounds....
Couldn't help it. 🤣
Another great video!
Liked and subscribed.
Again simple and efficient.
Very useful for tuning
Hello guyse I'm new here. I am also a newbe in terms of mixing. But your Channel sounds very very Helpfull!!!