The Last Dreyse Needlefire: 1874 Border Guard
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
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The Dreyse needle fire rifle was invented by Niclaus von Dreyse in 1836, adopted by Prussia in 1841, and would serve as their standard military rifle for 30 years, undergoing constant tweaking and improvements. By 1871, however, the days of the needle fire were coming to a rapid end, as it was rendered obsolete by the development and perfection of the metallic self-contained cartridge.
After the death of Nicolaus von Dreyse in 1867, his son Franz took over the company. Franz was also a talented designer, and devised a modification of the basic Dreyse system to allow for automatic cocking upon opening the bolt (as we would associate with any “normal” bolt action design today) instead of the more complex manual of arms required before. This was patented in 1874 and put into production in 1875 in an effort to keep the needle fire Dreyse relevant in a world of new bolt action rifles. The system was used for a variety of commercial sporting rifles until about 1900, but the only government purchase was a batch of guns for the Baden border guards and customs police. Those rifles have serial numbers in the 13,000 and 14,000 range, and today’s rifle is an example of one of them.
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I think the biggest thing that Ian has done for me is demystify guns. When you have seen Gun Jesus field strip 500 weapons, you start to realize that, in essence, every gun is the same. Sure, this one is crazy accurate, this one has a unique firing system, etc. But in the end, a gun is something that fires a projectile. Reminds me of when I started learning about car repairs many years ago.
Essentially the same in the sense of having a barrel and trigger, but all the different firing and reloading mechanisms are astounding.
Border Wars: The Last Dreyse
Starring: Tom Cruise as Franz von Dreyse.
and Paul Newman as the officer in charge of the testing program ;)
Is this a pentagon wars joke, cause goddamn lol.
Border Wars: The Rise of Bolt Actions.
@@Mygg_Jeagerit's a star wars reference
Here's a cleaning rod. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU CLEAN THE RIFLE WITH IT.
What did I tell you the cleaning rod is for decorations purposes only
clearing rod not cleaning rod
The most military thing they did
69th like nice
It's a dud cartridge clearer, not a barrel cleaner.
Mauser, some upstart. I'm sure we'll never hear of Mauser again after the 1871 is replaced. 😉😉😉
I dont know. He might have a chance in the sporting rifle market.
@@thedamnyankee1 Nah, he went bankrupt because he announced the aluminum receiver 1871 too soon at Shot Show 1872.
Probably just a gofundme scam or an MLM
... Right?
@@carman3894 OHHH! that was him. dumb.
@@carman3894 OUCH! 🤣🤣🤣
Ian could you please give us a practical demonstration of needle fire and paper cartridge technology, and get some on the range too? Thanks!
The Chap over at "Bloke on the Range" has got that covered.
Bloke on the Range has all this covered
Check capandball channel
With all the attempts to regulate ammo amid _current events_ and the difficulty of manufacturing brass shell casings at home, I find myself looking at old designs and thinking _"Maybe there are some things we can still learn from these relics? Perhaps there is a road not taken that's waiting to be forged?"_
If you live in a world without massive factories cranking out millions of cartridge cases every year (or you can't get them), pre and early industrial guns are what you're left with. Priming is just a chemistry problem, and powder isn't difficult, lead and bismuth are available and have uses outside of firearms. The drawn brass case (even soldered foil cases) is a major feat of industry. I've made some "primitive breechloaders" (based off Thomas Wilson's 1859 patent, but with the floating bolt head and seal of the 1866 Chassepot), I like using them, along with my muzzle loading firearms and airguns.
@@wildrangeringreen awesome. We could use such here in Ukraine
I have an F.V. Dreyse side by side 16ga hammer shotgun. Luckily chambered for 2 1/2” black powder shells and not a needle fire. Receiver is beautiful and 100% high relief engraved. Barrels are gold inlayed, stock is the best piece of walnut I have ever seen. Pretty neat both a service grade rifle and a bespoke shotgun came from the same workshop around the same time period.
Your one of the most underrated channels on CZcams your better than history channel nowadays
Ikr.
@@3eightiesopinion524 i say that
As good a Ian's channel is, and it my favorite channel, it is not that hard to out history the History Channel anymore.
IMHO if this channel 2 million subs it would still be underrated.
The History Channel can be pretty shoddy to be honest; A lot of the weapons - both past and present - content they have is biased, poorly sourced or otherwise suspect in its accuracy. Ian actually finds the documented memoirs, manuals and technical books. Unfortunately, a *lot* of this stuff isn't available online and yet he painstakingly acquires these and even posts reviews on some of them as well on this very channel.
Given the Dreyse was invented a decade before the Minie rifle, and the French themselves replaced their Minie rifles with a needle gun, was the widespread adoption of the Minie rifles by nations in the 1850s a mistake? What if everyone adopted a needle gun instead?
Had Dreyse, or any of Pauley's apprentices made their rifles to use a more powerful cartridge (similar to what the military was wanting) and solved gas leakage (Pauley used brass cartridge bases, but you have to have industry capable of supplying those bases), more countries would have adopted it. Especially after the Schleswig wars. Napoleon briefly considered issuing Pauley's guns, but no one could supply ammunition reliably/affordably, so it didn't get too far. The floating bolt head of the Chassepot 1866 design solved the issue with out hindering accuracy, like felt wads in the base of the cartridge did (a major complaint with most designs of the day). The Greene Rifle design also solved the issue, but construction of ammunition and training soldiers to use it correctly was an issue with that design.
The Dreyse went through a LOT of changes over the over 20 years between first production, then adoption and finally the German Unification war. The Prussians pushed it from a gun that was (in their eyes) unreliable to something they were extremely happy with and would regularly shock the Austrians. The Minie and Lorenz rifles both had a higher "effective" range. The Lorenz was much more accurate and the occasions the Austrians were permitted to use that advantage was the only time the Austrians had any skirmish advantage.
On a couple of occasions the Prussians had units run out of ammunition, while still engaged with Austrian units xD
One Austrian commander did tell his line infantry to *just* load rifles for the Jaegers under his command, to try and cope with the significant rate of fire disadvantage. I think during Königgrätz or just beforehand.
I constantly am amazed that one of the Outdoor channels/sport Channels like Guns and ammo, American Rifleman, haven't picked up Forgotten Weapons for a segment or even a whole show. Thanks again Ian, another learning experience.
Thanks again for another great video Ian.
I'm assuming that it stayed on the market for so long because of the paper cartridge. It's theoretically easier to make the whole bullet from scratch, the only part you'd have to buy made is the primer, but overall against expensive metallic cartridges it would be more sustainable
You'll probably need some power as well 😏
He made it so when you run out of cartridges you can unscrew the needle and end your opponent rightly
so you can chip ice for your victory cocktails...
@@wildrangeringreen make sure that you don't chip ice with the end that you used to labotomis a guy
You show a lot of rifles that fire paper cartridges but I'm unfamiliar with how they're constructed and how they work. Could you an episode on that please. It would be very informative, I'm certain.
Bloke On The Range has a lot of that covered, he has made some ammunition for the Chassepot and shoots it as well, going over the basic mechanics.
Think of a shotgun primer in the base of the bullet with channels for the flame kernel to escape and ignite the powder chare which is contained in a paper or linen cartridge glued to the base of the bullet. These later models also appear to have had a felt wad at the base to seal the breach.
In 1874 as a military rifle yes, but if the Deer is Dead, is the rifle, or even matchlock obsolete? Still I love your Videos.
obsolete technology, not ineffective. There's a difference. As a martial arm, it's obsolescence made it rather ineffective. For sporting purposes and limited civil defense, it's just fine. Still not the most modern design, therefore obsolete.
More people need to see this channel. This channel doesn’t get nearly as much attention as it should. Like I used this channel to help me explain how a breach loading was used and I got great marks. All I’m saying is this channel should be used at schools
jjohnston94 yeah it’s fine I was talking about breach loading rifles during the revolutionary war... And I live in Straya so school was pretty chill
jjohnston94 yeah in places like Melbourne where there are quite a few gun threats people panic but where I live people can’t get guns so it doesn’t cause much strife. And also everyone thinks they are tough and that they can stand up to a gunman. Which is a lie
*_PREUßENS GLORIA INTENSIFIES_*
Oh my god jagdpanzer, is this you?
Pilipinas ball bakit Nandito ka?
jens jensen Oh hej Aris
Bryan Melvin Deocampo I like guns
Hello fellow kababayan
I would suggest that the decocking feature on this Dreyse is mainly intended to be used on a misfire. With needle guns where the needle actually pierces the primer, there is a danger of the primer igniting when withdrawing the needle on opening the breech. There needs to be a method of withdrawing the needle with the breech closed.
The earlier versions of the Dreyse and the Chassepot both lock the breech and force you to withdraw the needle before you can open the breech. This slows down the loading sequence and is unecessiary if the gun has fired. Presumably by the time this gun came into service, shooters were considered competent to carry out the proper misfire drill and not try to open the bolt on a misfire without withdrawing the needle...?
You could also thread a beanie with a spare needle, or use it as a kubaton..
Also, I wanna see a steampunk AU where Dreyse bolts are converted to be used as glucometer needles
I'm sure if you practice hard enough, you can be just as effective with this as with an AR.
No
While you are reloading, the AR can mag dump
Nice meme
That’s one of the silliest things I’ve ever heard
All these guys have no idea. I could DESTROY anyone with one of these. And just in case I can’t I also conceal carry a Lahti L-39.
I am always amazed how long governments keep obsolete rifles in service.
I swear when Ian was talking about the bayonet lug he was about to say at this time, but his brain went "wait, pun" and said at this point instead.
The Wacht am Rhein needs you!
ZUM RHEIN, ZUM RHEIN!
@@themightyranger6321 ZUM DEUTSCHEN RHEIN
I'll mark it on your map!
@@muffy469dead fallout 4 memes on a German Meme 🤔🤔
One little, two little, three little posleen.....
No extractor? What is this, the USFA zip gun?
Caseless ammo 100 years ahead of it's time.
@@robertkubrick3738 kraut space magic
I'd be interested to see the cartridge.
Thank you , Ian .
Weird to think that this existed, and was used, at the same time as the 1860 Henry lever rifle. They just seem years apart in how easy they were to use effectively.
I'm surprised that as late as 1871-74 someone would still be putting in the time and effort into continuing development of needle fire paper cartridge rifles. But the fact they did sell some I suppose would mean it wasn't all wasted effort. How hard would it have been to convert the design to metallic cartridges?
Why is it surprising? Their era was in fact late 50's to early 70's. France gave up on them in 1974. Conversions werent at all hard as well. French converted nearly every one of their needle fire rifles to metallic cartridge in a matter of couple years in 1974-1975 and used them until lebel was adopted a few years later. Afterwards they were sold into other countries or civilian market. Germans simply adopted a new rifle because German mindset is German mindset
The writing was on the wall that metallic cartridges were the way to go well before 1870, there's a very good reason why Mauser won over the Dreyse. Gun development in the period between 1860 (or so) and 1880 not to mention after 1886, reminds me a lot of the insane computer market of the 1980s and 90s. Pushing a needle fired paper cartridge rifle in 1871-74 strikes me as a bit like trying to sell a new Commodore Pet model in 1990.
@@wilsonj4705 Millitaries dont often give in to new innovations for many reason. Germany and France could not easily convert their entire logistics and industry as easily as Britain or USA for example, who went straight to Metallic from muzzleloader with the Snyder pattern rifles a decade prior and the trapdoor system in the early 70's respectively. Thus the era of needlefire was indeed from late 50's to early 70's, because the strongest millitary in the world at the time, was still using them.
Normally I would agree but don't forget the German mindset of time was we have to stay ahead of the French, we have to stay ahead of the French. And the French? We have to stay ahead of the Germans, we have to stay ahead of the Germans. This helps explain somewhat why was so much of the gun development of the time was coming from the Germans and the French.
@@wilsonj4705completely true, but consider this. I am willing to assume that surplus amunition and left over industrial machines played a big role in issuing paper rifles to these units. We are talking about essentially a millitia border police after all, it wouldnt excuse the costs of production of 1871 rifles. As I said Germans didnt have the benefit of Britain, Greece, Denmark, Sweden etc. who went straight to metallic in 1860's. The process of drastical millitary innovation was and still is high, so it makes sense that they bothered with paper rifles in 1870's for small roles like that. They needed all their available resources for the upcoming planned Franco-Prussian wars after all
Your knowledge of firearms is amazing. I learn many new things from every video you put out. Thanks for the great work.
Hi ,Ian I just found your shows on AMAZON Video ,Congratulations !
Never thought I'd watch and be entertained by a video about a gun
great info as always
The removable firing pin was to be used as a bratwurst skewer.
When you're German and FW mentiones a "city" in Germany you've never heard of (don't forget that Germany is not even the size of California with a little more than twice the population).
Sömmerda TODAY has a bit over 18,000 inhabitants. It was significant less than that when this gun was developed. I wouldn't call that a city, rather a town. It's basically an outer suburb of Erfurt.
I am guessing that the felt wad sealing the rear of the cartridge was greased and left behind to be pushed out by firing the next round and cleaning as well as sealing the bore. As with the Terry& Callisher or Monkey Tail?
wow, i know im a long descendant of him, awesome video!!
Ian, I'm trying to grow a goatee like yours, with the exception that I want the mustache to flair up like Val Kilmer's Doc Holiday. It seems the space between my nose and lip is narrow like Val Kilmer's, hence why I'm opting for that more narrow style mustache. The goatee portion is going well so far, maybe an inch and a half in length. However, there is a clear gap in the middle of my mustache where our lips depress right below the middle of our nose. I'm starting to wonder if it will ever fill in. Any advice?
GoBIGclan as a mustachioed man myself, my advice is deal with it if it doesn't fill in. By which I mean, make the space part of of the style. Don't worry about it. I occasionally shave the area (the philtrum) a bit, creating 2 sections to the 'stache. I I weren't so lazy, about maintaining the lines of my facial hair, I would probably keep the middle shaved. I think it's a clean, "tailored" look. (I don't remove a lot of the hair, maybe 1/4 inch or so.) See also, Clark Gable: images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BKShWR2IL._SX425_.jpg
@@commentername9737 alright I'll try not to sweat it. I know that the space is common for thin mustaches especially in the 20's-50's. Thanks a lot for the advice
It needs to be mentioned that the Prussians cleaned the clocks of the Austrians because the main rifle of the Austrians were muzzle loading...
I read that the original Dreyse leaked gas so badly that the troops usually fired them from the hip. If so, they must have had some pretty good "hip shooters".
If this rifle had been in a metallic cartridge, do you think it could have beat the Mauser 1871?
Too difficult to convert to metallic cartridges.
The last shriek on the retreat.
Please make video about paper cartridges. It would be nice to look close at that strange things
what a pretty weapon
Your pronunciation of “Dreyse” gives me goosebumps...😂
REEEEEEEEE
afaik it should be something like "dry zuh"
@@vincedibona4687 Way, way off.
"Dreyse" sounds like:
Say "3" in german, add an S and add the "E" of "Evolution" to it.
Now you should get the sounding right 💪
In literature from the British breechloading rifle trials that led to the Snider, it was referred to as the “Dreyza”. I would assume that is how it should be pronounced, but Americans always seem to call them “drysee”. 🤷🏻♂️
Would the military size be classified as a medium, large or small size?
I have a von dreyse sommerda double barrel needle gun which my dad received during ww2 that has gold inlay on damaskin barrel with a duck how many needle double barrel guns where made?
The safety seems to be where Carcano drew his inspiration...
It's a beautiful rifle.
One of the first bolt-action rifles
The Dreyse needle breech-loading rifle musket might have been a boon for the U.S. Army and later Civil War Union Army. It would have been obsolete at war's end as the Remington falling block breech loader was superior but didn't come out till 1866. In any event, the post-Civil War U.S. Army converted thousands of muzzle-loading Springfield rifles to breechloaders through the innovative Allin springtrap door conversion which saved a lot of money instead of purchasing new Remington breech loaders.
I read that the gas release problem was pretty serious (at least during the Austro Prussian war) it didn't just vent gasses perilously close to your cheek but bits of burning cartridge paper as well. So it was more often used from the hip. Just what I read..... Art of War Waterloo to Mons by William McElwee
no. Even without the later, floating bolt head, the interlocking cones limited the amount of gas that escaped and directed it forward, away from your face. A fault common to many breechloaders of the 1830's? yes. So serious to keep it from being used normally by people used to flintlocks and percussion cap muzzleloaders, where the flash of the priming is right at your face and gas shoots out the breech from the priming vent? No. Even the early versions of this rifle are better to shoot than Christian Sharp's design.
I really, really want a Dreyse.
In the USA, I've seen more of these up for sale than any other Dreyse model... And that's only 2
Preach!
will we ever see the SIG 550 on here? it's about as forgotten as the g36
The g36 is still active duty in like 7 countries wat...
@@Zretgul_timerunner ian did a video on the g36, hence the comparison
Nice video!
I want one so bad
2 years later!
I was born in Sömmerda. Funny th read this name on a Rifle presented by a guy over there in the states.
I wish we could get firearms in Ireland freely like in America, guns are really nice and look amazing, it’s a shame all these crazy mass shooters are ruining the fun for all of us.
Speaking of Ireland, John Rigby of Dublin really embraced the needlefire system. He had a whole line of long arms that used it.
Sorry Partner,
But nothing is free.....
And with England so close,
You will have to move to have a "FREE" American firearm experience.......
I look forward to sharing some whiskey with you.......
New Mexico, is dry, but the vistas are truly AWESOME.
Knut Der Große I love New Mexico
Review and analyze the rpk
Are we ever going to have a behind the scenes video? You are a busy beaver.
Y'all are looking at the last of the first Mass produced Bolt Action rifle
Dreyse rhymes with riser as I heard on a Hungarian channel
I live next to Sömmerda 😊
Dreyse is born in my hometown
Uh oh, the O word. Time for the Dreyse fanboys to be up in arms. :)
Why not make the opposite end of the clearing rod a cleaning rod? That would have been convenient.
Any chance you could show VSS Vintorez or a Kriss Vector those are one of the most interesting guns ive been wondering why they are so popular.
Vector is interesting because of it's design (both outside and inside), and Vintorez is a n SVD bullpup with an integrated silencer if I remember correctly. This is Forgotten Weapons though, so he'd rather cover guns like the one in the video. Not a impossibility though, so he just might cover these.
Ian *has* covered his thoughts on the Kriss Vector, on InRangeTV.
The VSS is considered "unobtainium" ( un getable ) because it is not sold or allowed use outside of the Russian government.
Dreyse was the first example of planned obsolescence with its breakable and bendable needle firing pin, no?
I'd say not really. The firing pin in this gun is more like say a brake pad on a car. It eventually will wear out and needs to be replaced within the life time of the product. Not the same thing as planned obsolescence as I understand it.
You know, it would not take a ton of work to modify this to metallic cartridge. I mean change the needle for a striker with blunt, larger tip, add an extractor, and rim out the chamber for the cartridge and cartridge rim.
Why bother? It would take so much work and not hold up that well to that kind of system.
@@williestyle35 Well since these were never adopted by the military, you are right. There is no purpose to convert them rather then just adopting something different. The boarder guards might had gotten more life out of them with the modification though.
True, they could use these rifles for a good length of time, *if* it had been feasible to convert them to metallic cartridges ( like the French did with the Chassepot ).
Prussian gloria
It was already obsolete when it was invented
Württemberg selling Arms to Baden? What the hell where they thinking?
W stands for Wilhelm I or not???
It is a possibility...
Though I have come to trust's Ian's telling of these historical details as being well sourced ( and the note that this rifle was sold to the Grand Duchy of Baden might be something that is included with the rifle, to authenticate the proof mark...).
Or as i like to call it, the Prussian ass-beatin' smoke pole.
Dreysahhh.
Would the paper cartridges have been cheaper than brass cartridges of the time?
yes, especially if you made them yourself. foil and drawn cases were expensive components, and black powder fouling ruins them fairly quickly unless you clean them shortly after use.
This was a carbine length, wasn't it ?
It looks more like a short-rifle sort of length to me.
Mauser? Never heard of him.
Why would you come up with a new paper cartridge rifle in 1874, when the military has already adopted a far advanced metal cartridge system years before that ?
I wish I could own one or a replica to hunt during black power season.
make one. Go to harbor freight, buy a mill, drill press, a set of files and chisels; and you realistically have most of the shop tools they made these rifles with. I've made my own "primitive breechloading firearm", it's a modified Thomas Wilson 1859 patent ( but with the floating bolt had and seal of the 1866 Chassepot)
This rifle changed military history! PRUSSIAN PRIDE
Only had the Federals of the Union Army had these in the Civil War.
how does a needle ignite the powder?
Primer is sat behind the projectile, the needle was LLLOOOOOONNNG. The needle punctures the cartridge bag and travels a long length to the primer, which then acts like a usual rifle primer. Think Battleship powder bag...
The link is not working here
Wait is it really pronounced DRI-SEA.
I’ve always said DRAY-SA
And nickolas doesn't put his name on the guns he puts von dreyse sommerda on the guns
I thought the bolt action was made during the cowboy times
In the comments: Why the Dreyse really isn't obsolete...
whats the "French Shashpow"?
Chassepot * Fusil Modèle 1866 was a similar French designed rifle of this era. About 1.7 million were made and some were later converted to fire metallic cartridges, called the "Gras rifle".
Huh so its practical to some extent waddya know
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CAMS
Sein Vaterland muss grösser sein!
Am I the only one greatly annoyed by the foolishness of not going with a metallic center fire conversion for the existing needle guns?
Mr. Dislike is late today 🤣
Tough to listen to the horrible mispronunciation of Dreyse... (ugh) Had to mute it.
it's pronounced dray - zah
Hiiiiii im early
give it backkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
i want to invade france