Leaving the SSPX Behind: John Salza and Andrew Bartel
Vložit
- čas přidán 22. 07. 2022
- In this episode I am joined by John Salza and Andrew Bartel to speak about the Society of Saint Pius X.
Mr. Salza has been a practicing attorney for over 25 years and a widely acclaimed Catholic author and speaker for more than two decades. He lectures internationally about many topics including biblical apologetics, Freemasonry and Fatima. Salza has co-authored with Robert Siscoe the book True or False Pope - Refuting Sedevacantism and Other Modern Errors (2015), which is considered perhaps the most important contribution to Catholic scholarship on the question of a heretical Pope in the past 100 years. The book addresses errors primarily in the realm of ecclesiology, with a focus on Sedevacantism. Most recently, Salza has authored dozens of unprecedented articles exposing the errors of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and his Society of St. Pius X. Salza’s many articles and presentations on Sedevacantism and the Society of St. Pius X are available at his website:
www.trueorfalsepope.com
Andrew Bartel is a lay Dominican of the Province of the Most Holy Name of Jesus. He lives with his wife and their three children in Montana, where he works as a glazier. Andrew was a lifelong adherent of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X until 2013. He attended Foyer Saint Thomas d'Aquin in Avrillé, France, a boy's academy run by the Dominican community established by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.
Dom Dalmasso is a 2023 graduate from Holy Apostles College and Seminary with a Bachelor of Arts in Theology and philosophy. He grew up in the SSPX and in the FSSP. He was a Benedictine monk from early 2011 to late 2012 at Our Lady of Clear Creek Abbey in Oklahoma and was an active-duty United States Marine from August 2014 to August 2018. He runs the CZcams Show / Podcast The Logos Project, and is the editor-in-chief of The Ecclesia Blog. He is currently pursuing a Master of Arts in Dogmatic Theology at Holy Apostles.
Thank you for watching, we hope you enjoy the show!
Support us at www.patreon.com/thelogosproject - Zábava
This interview is such a blessing. I call myself a "recovering trad." My mother and I used to bounce back and forth between an independent chapel and an SSPX chapel for several years until, after many years of prayer and discernment, I came back to full communion with the Catholic church in 2013 and have been back ever since.
My mom came back about a year after me. For the longest time, I thought I was the only one to make such a move and I thought I was alone. It's such a blessing to see many more trads seeing the light and coming Home. It's such a blessing to know and see this. But even today there are many questions I have and struggles I deal with due to all the time I spent formed and raised in these rad trad circles. But I trust in the grace of God, that He will continue to lead me down the right path, preserve my faith and save my soul, as He has done with me all these years.
God bless all three of you gentlemen, and all you do at the Logos Project.
You’re very welcome Larry! Thank you for the comment. We have many more videos and a new blog site. I hope you find some answers there!
Our new blog:
domdalmasso7.wixsite.com/ecclesia
Another good resource:
www.tradrecovery.com/
I feel so blessed to have found the SSPX a year ago, and feel Archbishop Lefebvre was a Saintly man!
I mean they are so rare. I'm happy to have dodged the seven in my country in favour of an Ordinariate but would gladly go to many other parishes than set foot in their chapels.
same her brother, blessed to have found sspx
Same, they were one of the few open churches open during covid when I just wanted a church to attend to. I was a typical Protestant and didn't even know it. SSPX is as authentic Catholic as you can get and I praise Christ for it
@@jackdaw6359 good for you. We have a wonderful Ordinariate community here too. What a blessing.
Trad Pinoy, Hi, Pinay here, too. I advise you to give up SSX.
Ito ang sabi ni Papa Benedicto XVI:
"The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
"In order to make this clear once again: UNTIL THE DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS ARE CLARIFIED, THE SOCIETY HAS NO CANONICAL STATUS IN THE CHURCH, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church…
"This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes.
"The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 - this must be quite clear to the Society.
www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Here is what Pope St. John Paul II says in his Ecclesia Dei Adflicta:
" In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of CEASING THEIR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY FOR THAT MOVEMENT. Everyone should be aware that formal
ADHERENCE TO THE SCHISM IS A GRAVE OFFENCE AGAINST GOD and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law."
www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei.html
Pope Francis did give SSPX the faculty to hear confessions legally and validly, starting on the Jubilee Year of Mercy 2016 going forward. It does not contradict Canon Law because there have always been exceptional circumstances or instances of necessity in which the Church recognizes as valid and licit the reception of sacraments from priests who may be immoral, schismatic, irreligious, laicized, or even non-Catholic, provided their denominations have sacramental confessions. (Canons 844 §2 and 976).
While Pope Francis' gesture of mercy shows an important precedent -- for the good of souls, the Church has the power to grant faculties even to priests who are not in good standing -- it is nevertheless NOT AN APPROVAL OF THEM - not an approval of SSPX, or their situation.
As Francis states in his letter Misericordia et Misera: “For the pastoral benefit of these faithful (who attend churches officiated by the SSPX ) and trusting in the good will of their priests to strive with God’s HELP FOR THE RECOVERY OF FULL COMMUNION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, I have personally decided to extend this faculty beyond the Jubilee Year, until further provisions are made, lest anyone be deprived of the sacramental sign of reconciliation through the Church’s pardon.”
Very clearly, Pope Francis' motu proprio shows there is still the need for SSPX “to recover full communion in the Catholic Church.” Therefore, Pope Benedict's statement on SSPX's non-canonical status in the Church still stands.
Again, in Pope Francis' letter, dated 7/16/2021, that accompanies Traditionis Custodes, he specifically mentioned SSPX to be in "schism." Here's the 2nd paragraph, fully quoted:
" Most people understand the motives that prompted St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI to allow the use of the Roman Missal, promulgated by St. Pius V and edited by St. John XXIII in 1962, for the Eucharistic Sacrifice. The faculty - granted by the indult of the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1984 and confirmed by St. John Paul II in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei in 1988 - was above all MOTIVATED BY THE DESIRE TO FOSTER THE HEALING OF THE SCHISM WITH THE MOVEMENT OF MONS. LEFEBVRE. With the ecclesial intention of restoring the unity of the Church, the Bishops were thus asked to accept with generosity the “just aspirations” of the faithful who requested the use of that Missal."
www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_letters/documents/papa-francesco-lettera-ap_20161120_misericordia-et-misera.html
About the SSPX faculty to officiate in Catholic weddings (Letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith dated March 27, 2017). It states that with the diocese's permission, an SSPX priest may officiate in a Catholic wedding but only if there is no diocesan or religious priest available, and the documents must be forwarded to the diocesan curia. It should be remembered, too, that in the sacrament of matrimony, the ministers are the couple themselves. A priest is only there to witness for the Church and receive the couple's vows.
Other than those limited faculties,, sacraments of the SSPX are still illicit because, as Pope Benedict XVI writes, the Society has no canonical status and no legitimate ministry in the Church.
People, including bishops, who say SSPX is not in schism or has reconciled with the Church, should be able to produce a document similar to Pope John Paul II's letter welcoming the SSPX in Campos, Brazil (now the Union of St. John Mary Vianney) into the fold, otherwise they should not be believed. Here's the link to Pope JPII letter:
www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4141
Salamat at pagpalain ka nawa ng Diyos.
The reason why I left the SSPX was because of their schismatic attitude toward the Novus Ordo. Very simply put, no one has the authority to tell a Catholic which form of the Mass he can go to EXCEPT the Church. The Church officially promulgated it therefore you can go and no one can tell you otherwise.
The fact that they tell you it is A SIN to attend a Novus Ordo mass is just mind-boggling to me. How on earth could it be a sin to attend mass? How does that make any sense? It's very concerning that they just repeat these talking points without actually taking a step back and thinking about it objectively.
@@andym5995 exactly. In reality there is only ONE Mass. It's the same sacrifice on the Cross. They call that a sin. It all boils down to authority.
@@omarvazquez3355 100% agree. I can't imagine standing in front of God when I die and trying to justify to Him why I told someone they shouldn't fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to a certain rite.
Is it okay for Novus ordo laity to tell Catholics not to attend the SSPX? Seems to me to be a double standard.
@@lorichet I know a priest who was ordained as diocesan and joined the FSSP, but was actually looking at the SSPX for a time. His conclusion was that, even after experiencing a lot of garbage in the NO, he'd rather attend a Novus Ordo mass than an SSPX mass, simply because of the fact that an SSPX mass is illicit, no matter how you spin it. I think that NO parishioners have a much better case for advising that people don't attend SSPX chapels than the other way around.
Amazing interview! Thank you so much. Mr. John Salza and Mr. Andrew Bartel are two big reasons why I left sedavanticism and Gerry Matatics and came back into the Holy Catholic Church. Keep up the good work!
SSPX is not sedevacantist.
Thank you for listening! Glad you made it back to the family!
God bless you!
I did not know that Pope Frantic and his merry band of Pederast Birdbrains were part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ. News to me.
At any rate, don't be too surprised when the meteor oblitherates Rome. In the meantime, pray your rosary and wear your scapular like your spiritual depends upon it, because it sure does.
May God bless you.
Mai, glad you made it home ! I’m also a “recovering sede”. :)
One thing I notice about these discussion that are left out is the doctrine of resisting popes when they endanger the faith. You don’t mention that these popes are endangering the faith and that Archbishop Lefebvre resisted their bad actions. The discussion revolves around him resisting the pope, iyou don’t talk about the doctrine of resisting the popes and why that does not apply in these situations
Abp Lefebvre did not resist a specific doctrine that Paul VI promoted, he engaged in an act of juridical disobedience (which he did in the name of resisting an ecumenical council). Furthermore, Lefebvre DID in fact hold to and promote error and heretical teachings as we have extensively shown in our video on the errors of Lefebvre.
Speaking to John, you stated you primarily attend ICKSP: I do not know where you live but if it were within the diocese of Chicago under its Bishop Cupich who is suspending all public functions of the ICKSP, what would you do? Where would you worship and receive the sacraments? All others who wish to respond are welcome. Thank you.
There’s plenty of eastern rite churches in the area.
@@calebadcock363 John will need to go to his local diocesan novus ordo parish when Pope Francis removes through the Bishops all traditional latin Masses. Rite jumping is unnecessary since the novus ordo is valid. The pope will tell the eastern rites to refuse latin Rite catholics because they have no need to run to them.
Need to go to the Mass where two dudes talk about their marriage during a “homily.” Totally valid.
I respect John Big time . It takes tremendous integrity , courage, and humility to change a position . I was a sedevacantist for 40 years (two different forms). Over the years The red flags started to pile up . Prompted by Gods Grace , I began to re-examine my position , on examination, one by one ,, the sede arguments fell apart , after 3 years of agonizing study and prayer over the sede issiue . , it became clear that I could no longer continue as a sede . However, I was so fearful to leave , I didn’t know were else to go or who else to trust .I finally got John Salza s book . it confirmed everything I had found . And so much more . Afterre reading his work , I no longer could go to sede mass . His book is so well done VERY detailed. It addressed all the various arguments. I owe a big thank you to John and Robert . They put an enormous . amount of work into the book .
After I read the book , I wanted to switch to the SSPX, BUT , the points he made in the book seemed to also apply to the SSPX, after agonizing prayer for help (thank you blessed mother). I received a clear sing that lead me to the FSSP. I was formally received in to the Church over 3 years ago . Followed by 8 members of my family. Big thank you to John and Robert.!!!!
This is beautiful! Thanks be to God for His Mercy!
Wonderful! God bless
Would you please pray for my daughter who recently married a sedevacantist and they’ve started a family. It’s caused division in our family. I’m heartbroken. Their names are Sabrina and Alex.
Exchange video, but I do have a question: if intention of a minister of the sacraments has to have proper intention (could you expound on the definition of that term) and there is a possibility of that minister of interiorly withholding that proper intention, what are some safeguards that the church provides to assure that the line of bishops is never broken?
Thank God for my wife's prudence. When coming into the church I easily could have fallen into the SSPX.
This show was the answer to my prayers. Thank you God and thank you guys!
The consacration of the Immaculata Church in St. Mary's KS, May 3rd 2023, was an immpresive display of strenght and vitality by the SSPX.
A big Church dedicated to Our Lady Queen of Angels will be consacrated in Mexico by the SSPX one week after St. Mary's church.
The SSPX seminary in Germany is growing and expanding facilities.
Preseminaries established in the Phillipines, Africa, México.
Two new houses established in Central America.
Increasing number of priests from Russia and Eastern Europe being ordained every year.
The whole thing just keep growing and growing.
Our Lord Jesus Christ gave us the golden rule of discernment: "by its fruits you shall know them".
What are the fruits after 60 years of the Vatican II council ?
What are the fruits of the modernist Rome ?
Our Lord says to St. Peter, the first pope, "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
And this is what the Pope says regarding SSPX:
"The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
"In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church…
"This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes.
"The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 - this must be quite clear to the Society."
www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Amen.. 💯
The fruit is schism from the Bride of Christ and disobedience to the Vicar of Christ
Muslims countries are getting way bigger then the Catholic ones so I guess they're better because they're "more" blessed....op time to convert 😅
Congratulations to having the physically biggest rival altar in the states... Slow clap.. bravo
Eh, the SSPX has a high attrition rate. Half of all SSPX priests have left. From 1400 'ordained' down to 700.
With the trajectory of the church, sspx may be the last hope.
Hey logos. How can I get in touch with Andrew Bartel?
Hey R&T, just sent you an email. Let me know if you don’t get it! God bless.
Thank you, God bless your charitable work.
Thank you Christine!
Question, out of the 3 of you, how many attend the N.O.?
Test what these men say. First error: That the Sspx were formed for the laity. The Sspx were formed in order to have well formed priests. It is a priestly society! Research every statement that they make! Take the TLM missal (1955 or 1969) and compare the words of the mass to the 1969 novus ordo missal! Check what has been left out! Take the Novus Ordo 1969 missal and compare each Eucharistic Prayer 1 to 4 with the same Eucharistic Prayers in the 2011 Novus Ordo Missal. Yes! Pope Benedict changed the mass!!! Nobody was told! What were his reasons? Suddenly the mass of 1969 (which lacked the sacrificial element, even though the word sacrifice was cleverly used in the text), the mass in the 2011 edition regained the words that embraced the sacrificial elements!Another error in this talk: Archbishop Lefebvre never celebrated the New Mass.
St Athanasius was in exactly the same position as the Archbishop. Nearly the whole of Christiandom had taken on the heresy of Arianism. He alone (St Athanasius) stood up against it.(He said "We have The Faith, they have The Buildings"......they also had the Pope). Today we have multiple heresies playing out at the same time. In order to be Catholic you have to have The Catholic Faith. Pull out your grandparents old Catechism and Holy books. Compare them to what is being preached today. It is not the same teaching! Buy yourselves Fr Leonard Goffines book "The Churches year", written in 1880. The faith being taught today is not the same as it was in 1880! Why??? The Pope and the Bishops are Apostolic BUT THEIR TEACHINGS ARE NOT. They are NEW, since Vatican ll. Pope John Paul ll called it The New Evangelization! St Paul teaches that if an Angel should tell you anything different to what I tell you then let him be Anathema. The Messages of Our Lady of Good Success, La Salette and Fatima tell a very frightening story. Access The Fatima Center, Family Catholic News, Defeat Modernism to learn the History of what has taken place at Vatican ll. Many prophecies warn us that the clergy are leading many souls to hell. Pope John Paul ll was involved with the prayer meeting at Assisi, as did Pope Benedict XVl do similar meetings, as is Pope Francis with Pachamama and his smudging ceremonies. They are marching us to paganism and idolatry and to hell. Do not follow like Sheep. It is time to put on your thinking caps. Our Lady appeared to St Bernadette as Our Lady of Mount Carmel at her last appearance. At the Miracle of The Sun on 13 Oct 1917, whilst the 70 000 strong crowd witnessed the sun gyrating and behaving against nature, the 3 Children saw 3 different tableaus. The last one was of Our Lady of Mount Carmel holding out the brown scapular. Rev (Fr) Howard Rafferty interviewed Sr Lucia in 1950. She made it clear to him that Our Lady wants us to pray The daily Rosary AND wear The Brown Scapular (this involves being Consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart). The two are inseparable. How come the majority of Catholics have never heard this before?
As we can see Pope Francis is desperately trying to Snuff out The Traditional Latin Mass. What exactly is soo dangerous about this Mass? Pope Benedict XVl tried to tell us that it was a Continuity of Tradition but yet Pope Francis flatly denied this. Pope Francis is correct. The New theology is not a continuity. It is New! That is why Pope Francis wants to snuff out The TLM. The Theology of the TLM does not match the theology of The Novus Ordo mass. Don't be deceived. God bless you all and Mother Mary protect you.
Deo gratias for your great response! I could not express myself but you did it for me! God bless your quick thinking and charitable explanation. Humbly yours in Carmel
Thank you for yours very accurate to the point respond
@Berry Jones It is not a lay association, it is a priestly society. Have you ever been to Tridentine Mass?
@Berry Jones A pious union doesn't necessary means to be exclusively a lay association, in can either be a priestly association, a lay association or both. In the case of the SSPX, it is an international fraternity of traditionalist Catholic priests. I have attended the Catholic Mass exclusively for the past 32 years. God Bless!
@Berry Jones If you look in Wikipedia the information about the SSPX, it clearly states it is a priestly society. Have you been to a Catholic Mass or do you attend the Novus Ordo service?
Great discussion guys. If SSPX priests are telling laity that its wrong to go to TLM with the ICKSP then that is troubling. I go to SSPX and ICKSP masses in Ireland, SSPX is the nearest chapel to me. John Salza makes great points.
If you see no difference in the doctrinal stance of the original SSPX- before the dark times, before the Fellay chattering with modernist Rome- then you have lost the plot.
With Salsa's logic, why not just attend the conservative Fundies right down the street, since it is all about geography.
Enjoy the indult sermon on Saint JP2 on Sensus Fidelium. czcams.com/video/Abg52eJEut0/video.html
If a priest says troubling things in his sermon, i would seek personal discussion on the matter with him and check official SSPX position. In the end, my only goal is bring me and my family closer to Christ through the Latin mass, and all other issues just be for the Lord to handle. With all this chaos outside, I cannot visualize thinking like a sedev do or agreeing to ALL what Vatican says like what i had been for 33 years. All these issues in trad are neglible compared to the horrors my family and I have with Novus Ordo. Here in the Philippines, no matter how evil the words we hear from the pope, we are blessed that our SSPX priests never lose track of reminding us of charity towards those that do not agree. They never say attending other TLM be wrong but be cautious of the euphemisms of papal words that the others would do.
@@tradpinoy
You are lucky to be in the Phillipines. For the most part the SSPX is still very good there. But if you can go to Fr Chazel. He is one of the few priests I still really like.
“Wrong” sounds like sin. The SSPX is only saying it’s an Occasion of Sin.
Thank you!
Disgruntled ex-SSPXers. Good luck living faithfully at a diocesan parish during the current crisis. The SSPX was not an option for me until it became the only option. I can see how easy to be drawn to these lies if a bitter root toward someone at the SSPX starts to grow.
Cant agree more sir. Being someone attending all versions of novus ordo from the pseudo reverent to ultra modernist for 33 years, SSPX was my game changer.
@@tradpinoy May I ask how SSPX became "the only option?"
With hundreds of FSSP, diosocen and ICK churches etc. offering tradional mass and communities, how did SSPX become the only option? Are you unable to move?
@@nealkriesterer i am not sure about your place sir, but where I am this is where SSPX mass is consistent everyday, while for other “traditional”, it will depend on the bishop’s mood or the pseudo traditional priest just inconsistent.
@@tradpinoy There are thousands of bishops/diocese in the world, and since Traditionus Custodus only a handful have done anything to suppress the traditional mass. Most bishops/diocese did nothing. If you're in that 10% of diocese where they suppress the traditional rite, you should move to a diocese where the traditional rite is allowed (over 90% of diocese.)
I live in Green Bay, Wisconsin and I'm getting more and more annoyed with the SSPX. I go to an ICK parish which has latin mass once or twice a day and three times on Sunday, same with Confession. And yet 10 miles away there is also an SSPX chapel. Why? These people can't say they are being surpressed when 10 miles away there is an ICK parish offering the latin rite 10+ times a week. Maybe the SSPX served some purpose back in the 70s/80s but these days all they do is give traditional Catholics a bad reputation. Without the SSPX there would be no drama.
@@nealkriesterer i guess sir you are entitled to your own opinion. Maybe that is your personal experience and impression and we respect that. Good for you that you have no mobility issues. Perhaps for you SSPX is drama nowadays, but for where I am, SSPX is consistency for me and my family. I also believe if you have issues with SSPX in your place, it is great to get a cordial talk with them to check if your impressions are their intentions as we can never judge the hearts of others. We can easily be deceived by our impressions. But from where i am, the 90/10% rule doesnt apply. I don’t want to go to pseudo traditional masses where the priest celebrates Novus and praise a modernist bishop.
Many thanks
Such an incredibly good interview with some seriously educated men! Thank you so much for this work that is so, so needed to bring people back into the Church. All my family included.
Mr Salza’s accidents vs substance in the liturgy example is excellent. Thank you, sir.
You affect the substance in the liturgy by having a different and invalid form of consecration and in many cases, an incorrect matter. The fact that a table is used in the NO (instead of an altar) also reflects a complete different view in regards the Mass. This is the reason why I called the NO rite a protestant service and not Mass.
@@gerardgarcia7127 First, the Novus Ordo can (and should) be done at a high altar, so this is not a defect of the NO. Second, what makes an altar an altar, and why do the common "table" altars not qualify?
Hi listeners, assuming you have already read or listen to the book written by Abp. Lefebvre on "Open letter to confused Catholics", please watch the debates in CZcams between Jeff Cassman vs Andrew Bartel & Jeff Cassman Vs David Gordon. Awesome debates.
YAY .... Thank You for this video
Interesting. I had a debate for days with someone who was citing John here before he left the sspx. Thank you all.
Excellent discussion! Thanks
Definitely adding this to my list of resources for people who have questions about this topic. Great episode.
Thanks Andy!
Does the Pope's authorization to validly hear confessions and absolve apply only to SSPX priests or also to similar groups like Williamson's Resistance and sedevacantists?
Only to SSPX priests
I’m Trying to understand all of this. If Catholic couples have to have their marriages witnessed by The Church, how can the Pope give this faculty to sspx if they are not in The Church?
This is absolutely phenomenal Dom. Thanks for this episode!
Thanks Dustin!
200 likes. Says much.
God bless the SSPX
Actually, if you had looked up the ideal ratio of likes to views before making this silly comment, you'd have discovered this video is doing very well.
@@andrewbartel12this is what I call a cope. Now excuse me while I venerate Abp. Lefebrve as a saint, and you can seethe about it. Enjoy your paychecks from the Opus Dei/Rome just like the homosexual Voris!
@@theromanbaron Hey man, you're the one who brought up the quantitative measurement in the first place. I am motivated to help souls, not by CZcams achievements or accolades. I just found it very interesting that even your shallow reasoning was shallow. And your subsequent reply certainly demonstrated this yet again!
@@andrewbartel12 if you listen to Abp. LEFEBRVE’S sermon on schism and sedevacantism (which is available in English on CZcams) you’ll see that your claims are false, and mortally sinful at the least. You slander a society that values the salvation of souls. God will “reward” You for that. No doubt.
@@andrewbartel12In your opinion doesn't sedevacantists make more sense than the Recognise & Resist crowd? Please note I am neither - left the SSPX and attend NO Mass. But listening to these talks with John Salza and hearing how much authority ones local Bishop has, the R & R crowd makes little sense. At least sedevacantists know what kind of authority the Pope and local Bishop has, but because they don't act the way sedevacantists want they say they aren't the Pope or Bishop. R & R crowd seem to just think they can pick and choose what someone who they claim is a legitimate Pope or Bishop does can be obeyed or not.
Good convo
Great episode. Out of curiosity, does Mr. Salza have an opinion on the 2008 PCED letter? Also does he have a link to all of the PCED responses, especially the 2015 one? I need the sources to have evidence for my pro SSPX friends.
Idk Austin, you’d have to ask John. Check out his website. God bless!
@@thelogosproject7 Thank you! He doesn’t provide a link or anything in his articles is why I was asking. I’ll send him an email.
Great to have another reliable channel out there. I saw you on Reason & Theology and appreciate what you're doing. Subbed.
Great discussion, have you watched the SSPX in Schism debate video b/w E Michael Jones and Michael Davies?
Thank you trnslash, a while ago yes
Thank God! I have been waiting to hear this for years.
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.
- Saint Catherine of Siena in St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222.
I think this quote is very deep , we def ought to obey the pope !
Here because Michael Lofton... stayed because the ex-mad-rad-trad movement is growing and needs support. TRAD-Lite®️ "More Tradition, Less Division"
How far does the pope's jurisdiction extend regarding the liturgy and public prayers of the church? (I.e. suppressing the Latin mass) I am of the opinion that while the pope can not change anything of the matter or form of the sacraments, nor abolish the mass outright, nor bind priests to commit sacrilege, nor bind priests to profess infallibly condemned propositions, nor bind the faithful to worship pagan gods; the Pope can refuse to police the liturgy such that all of the above occur at the local level. Moreover, the pope can modify the public prayer of the church as much as he wills so long as he does not cross the aforesaid limits. If the pope could be lawfully resisted while still staying within these limits, then the judgement about what should be included in the mass would rest on the private judgment of the individual: the individual could veto the judgment of the pope even if the pope is not commanding him to sin per se.
With how many times the guy's flip flopped, I'm anticipating a 2033 video title: "John Salza - Why I left Catholicism behind and returned to freemasonry" at this rate. (Relax, I merely jest).
I've listened to John for a while back in the early 2010's. Really smart guy. I have all of his books. Seeing the slow changes he's made over the years is a little sad but it is what it is. It's not sad because of any contention I have with what he says since I think the crisis is so murky, it's hard to navigate most of the time, but because he seems troubled to me. It sort of reminds me of a guy I knew who went to an sspx seminary but then got a very scrupulous conscience and wondered about the validity of his confessions, etc., at which point he ghosted. I think that's probably what we're seeing here.
It's sort of like a observation I've made about sedevacantism back in the late 2000's - if you spend enough time on the internet with the intent of getting scandalized about the crisis and complaining about it all the time, most people will inevitably go down that path. I think with Salza we're seeing the reverse sort of. Spending years and years going hard at the sedes, using the same quick online rebuttals and long drawn out arguments with them (essentially using their own tactics against them), he's become hypersensitive about the crisis and the state of his soul, realizing by being an sspx adherent he was probably playing with fire, so he went the opposite extreme and went down the ecclesia dei route.
Me personally, I have no gripes with either the ecclesia dei groups or the sspx. To me, both have more faults more than most care to admit. And I do agree, discouraging the faithful from going to ecclesia dei Masses is taking it too far, but I also think both dona tremendous good for the Church. One day with the intervention of Divine Providence, this whole thing will be sorted out.
Thanks for your comment. I disagree however that the situation is murky. I often hear “these are confusing times” as a reason for one’s actions or positions. This is mere rhetoric and doesn’t hold up to the last 2000 years. Things are very clear and laid out for us by the Magisterium of the Universal Church Christ has established on earth. Ubi Petri est Ecclesia. Ad Jesum per Mariam cum Petro.
The ability to change your opinion with learning new information is docility, ( a virtue). Holding to an opinion inspite of clear evidence to the contrary is to be obstinate, (A vice). At no point did John Salza change his Catholic faith . To reduce his change of opinion to a flip flop , is ridiculous.
@@mycatholicexperience8409 I hate to break it to you, but he's in a publicly available picture on a website of an Italian freemason lodge receiving an award from them back in 2018. Either, he reverted (can't say for sure), or he's weakened his position about them. Either way, he's rubbing elbows with the wrong crowd. Could explain his sudden flip out of the blue. Who knows?
shifting the topic to one of suspicion doesn’t address the point I raised . Also you imply the reason for his “flip flop” was that he is compromised (free masonary). Then say who knows? Actually we do know the reason for his changed views, (he told his reasons in the above interview, it’s not a secret what his reasons are .
As far as suspicion goes ,,,, What about suspicion of ABL being ordained by a Freemason? And as far as flip flop goes, what would you say to those who point out the well documented flip flopping of ABL on various issues, ? What about the acuasation of “flip flopping “ leveled against the SSPX by the “resistance “
Point is, if we are to judge things by “flip flopping “ and suspicion, That is a double edged sword that’s going to cut both ways . Instead I suggest, we deal with the ideas and arguments of our opponents.
As a former sedevacantised I remember when John’s book came out , similar personal attacks on John Salzas character and competence were raised by sede’s to discredit his book , you know who was defending him ? The SSPX, , but now ?the SSPX crowd are parroting those same kind of rash judgments and suspicions themselves.
Awesome work. Great guys. Glory to God.
Please do a commentary on Kennedy Halls new book - SSPX the Defense
I just don't see how anyone can do these mental gymnastics of trying to reconcile the society with the two thousand year old tradition of the church
Man your subscriber count has almost tripled since this video came out 😄 Love seeing the growth!
Haha! Thanks man!
Did you check out my interview on Reason & Theology?
@@thelogosproject7 yes I actually just watched it this morning! Great discussion, I really enjoyed it.
@@thelogosproject7 ظظظظ ظظظ. ظظm/mmmm mظظظ ظظظظظظظظظظظm/mmظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظmmm ظmmmmmmmmmmmmmmظظmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mظ ظظظظ ظًًظظظظً ظظظظظظظظظظmm/mmmmmmmmmmmmظظظظظظظmmmmmظظظmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmظظظظظmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmظظظظظmmظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظmmmmm/mmmmmmmmmmm/mmm/mmmmmm/mmm//mm/mmmظظظظ/mmmmmmm//mkmظظظًظًظظظظظظًًظظًظكظظظظظًظظظظظظظظظظظظظظظًظظظظظظظظظظًظظظظكظظك. جظظظًًظكظكظظظظظًًظظكظظكظظظظظظظظظظًظظظظظظظظظظكظظظظككظًًًظظظظظظظكظظظظًظظظظكظظظظ. ك. ج.. ظظظظظ. كظ.. كظ..... مرحبا ًظظكطظظظ. ك
@@thelogosproject7 ظظظًظظ. كظكظظظكظظ. مرحبا ًظظظككظكج. ظظظظظك. ظظكظظظظًظكظظظظظكظظ. ظظظظظظظظظظظظظًظظظظ.. ظظظظظ ظ ظظ... ظككظظظظظكظظظظظظظظظظظظظظًًظظظظظظظظ. ظ.. ظ.. ًظظظظظظظظظكظكظظظظظظظظظظظظكظظًظظظظظظظظظ. ظظ ظكظ. ظكظككظ. كظ. ظظظظظظظظظظظكظظك. كظ ككج. د. ظظظظكظظ.. ظظظظظكك. ظظظظكظظ.. ظظظظظ ظظظ ظظظظظظككظظ.... ظظظظكظظكد. ظظظظظظظك... ك. كظ. كظ..... كظ.. كك...... ككظ........ كظكظ... ككظ. كظ.. كظ..... كد................. كككظ. كطك.
Such a wonderful, timely & essential conversation. John mentioned that he submitted Dubia to his Bishop. My understanding is that this is a process that takes place within the Magisterial hierarchy, I was unaware that this can be applied/or extrapolated to laity in general. I understand that it ultimately means “a question” a question which requires clarification. Is this permitted by the laity?
Yes, you can write to your bishop with a question. I’ve never had to do it, but I do have friends who have.
18:45 And THANK GOD for that act of mercy on the part of the Holy Father, otherwise, in my error and confusion, my confessions would all be invalid.
Pope Francis is worried about the souls and mortal sin of those who attend sspx? What about the souls of those who worship pachamama? Is he concerned for them? Doesn’t seem to be. He seems all too willing to affirm them in their idol worship! And yet traditional Catholics are the problem? What a joke!
Salza said Fatima was about an EMP threat. They can never admit the apostasy it warned of .
Thanks for the show! As a point of clarification, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the sacraments of the SSPX would be illicit vs invalid? After all, they still do have apostolic succession, albeit irregularly, like the Eastern Orthodox.
We aren’t saying that their sacrements are invalid (except for confession and marriage, which require jurisdiction for validity), but that they are illicit. Now it depends, pope Francis granted mercies in certain cases.
I could be mistaken, but on the Reason and Theology show, Michael has had several episodes which confirm that the Eastern Orthodox have 7 valud sacraments. How could they have valid confessions and marriages without ordinary jurisdiction from the pope?
@@csaszar07 Because they are not Catholics who marry without the witness of the Catholic Church, they are non-Catholics who marry without the witness of the Catholic Church. I’ll try to have someone on to discuss all things marriage canonically. At the end of the day, the spouses are the ones to confer the sacrament on each other. Catholic spouses require the witness of the Church.
@@thelogosproject7 Thanks for the clarification. I look forward to that show!
@@csaszar07 All SSPX sacraments are valid.
Thank God for the SSPX.
Always 🙏🕊
This was a well done discussion. The speakers were clear in their remarks and never fell into tendentiousness. They nevertheless will be called tendentious (and worse) by adherents of the movements they critiqued. (The cancel culture doesn't exist only on the Left.)
Thank you Karl. Yes, we have been receiving a surplus of negativity, but much positivity as well! (especially from people who have left the SSPX).
You'll always be my hero, Karl. Thanks for everything you've done. God bless you.
@@widdershins7628 Your standards for heroism are far too low. You need to rethink them.
@@karlkeating2803 🤗🤗🤗 Noli nugas dicere
Mr. Salza, I commend you on your efforts to live the Faith of Our Fathers. All I know is this....You will know them by there fruits. What are the fruits of Vatican II? Decimation of the Church numbers, both in laity and priesthood. Who was most pleased with Vatican II, your former taskmasters the Freemasons, particularly with ecumenism. Why would you want to go to a service that was designed by a freemason (Bugnini) and 6 heretic protestants?
Thank you all so much for this video. You have perfectly articulated my feelings about the Trad movement and have given me a lot of good information on how to combat their arguments. I also think that the Trad movement is fueled in part by a skewed understanding of private revelations such as Fatima. They believe the Church is apostate so they can justify their actions.
You’re on the money!
YES. Overreliance on personal interpretation of private revelation is way too prevalent in trad world. We can't ditch the historical and traditional teachings of the Church because a quote from some obscure mystic in the 1600s seems to be at odds with them.
And I love Fatima. It’s such a beautiful apparition. I went on a pilgrimage there, because I was called to, and I think it has such a beautiful message. The way trads distort its message and many others is truly sad.
Scripture speaks of apocalyptic times to come and the church is indeed in the midst of apostasy. You guys blind or something?
@@jamesmandahl444 The Church can never aposticize because of Christ's promises. As far as apocalyptic times, even St Paul thought he was living in the last days so in a general sense your are correct. But the Church may go on for another 500, 5,000, or 100,000 years before Christ returns.
But as a Catholic I can go to an SSPX mass there is nothing wrong with that ?
Watch our video on the SSPX and the Sunday Obligation
Spoken by a true FREEMASON you don't fool me mate
😂😂😂
How do you explain the great apostasy in the modern church
By the fact that people are disobeying the Church... Like the SSPX.
This must be a must-watch about the trad movement. Excellent job
You said the Church cannot introduce anything harmful to the faith of the faithful: what of the female altar "Boys"? Introduction of communion in the hand? Removal of altar rails? Versus populum celebration? Have these things not brought about a diminishing of the sense of the sacred?
What about the departure of the Pauline Rite from the traditionally Roman words of consecration for the chalice, which are said to be of Apostolic origin?
With regard to the "logic" of weaponizing the TLM: the suppression hits only Ecclesia Dei communities and diocesan TLMs, not the SSPX. So how does this actually work? The ones who decided to stick with the Magisterium are the ones being trodden underfoot in a rather uncharitable and brutish manner.
Which of those things you listed are actually proscribed by the Novus Ordo?
@@spencer2978 They are permitted by legitimate authorities, and actually promoted. Do you deny this?
@@Shlomayo
Nope but that is an abuse and therefore a personal sin on their part. The Church cannot proscribe a religious practice or rite which is harmful to the Faith. According to Vatican I, it’s heretical to believe otherwise.
If you want to say the rubric for the Novus Ordo is highly imperfect/less reverent/easy to be misused, I’m right there with you.
If you are going to say that the liturgy itself is evil, contains heresy, or is an objective danger to Faith, then I have to oppose that.
@@spencer2978 I am not saying the Liturgy itself is evil. I do not agree with the SSPX on that at all.
What I am saying is that Rome has clearly updated disciplinary rules in such manner that has not only proven imprudent, but also detrimental to the Church's spiritual life.
When listening to this, I have to laugh at the criticism of Judaism as too legalistic.
1:27 read Yve Congar for the meaning of tradition? That archi-modernist?
There’s no such thing as a SSPX Mass, the SSPX and many other Traditional groups practice what the church has practiced for centuries. On the other hand, the NO rite is simple another Protestant rite.
It doesn't matter if they celebrate the most holy and beautiful liturgy, we can possibly fashion. They remain in schism, so their devotion is tainted.
@@john-el9636 They are not in schism because a heretic can’t excommunicate, and that goes to all the members of the Novus Ordo Church.
@@john-el9636 By NO I meant the Novus Ordo Church, The Novus Ordo Church was founded after Vatican II and it currently controls Rome. The last valid pope was Pius XII. John XXIII was a mason (it was found after his death).
@@john-el9636 By the way, what are you going to do after the Novus Ordo bishop in your area no longer permits the celebration of the Latin Mass?
@@gerardgarcia7127 There is no such thing as the "Novus Ordo Church." The term "novus ordo" comes from a quote by Pope St Paul VI in reference to the new order of mass found in the 1970 missal. Applying that term to the entire Church is incongruous and inappropriate. If the Catholic Church isn't the Church of Christ anymore, then where is it? Keep in mind that if you imply it is some invisible community of trads or something like that then you've fallen into protestantism. That's where that notion comes from. Also if my bishop were to ban the 1962 missal (not the Latin mass since those two aren't synonymous) I'd petition for its return but submit to his decision. Because ultimately obedience to the Church is always more important than my favorite liturgical forms.
I find this rather disturbing. For many years now I have been attending the Latin Mass at a personal parish run by a PFSP priest. I am quite sure that he is answerable to our
Archbishop, even though the Archbishop is not a big fan of the TLM. Are the guests here actually saying that PFSP (and SSPX) priests have not been validly ordained ?? I really would be thankful for an answer, and if the answer is no, what is the reason ??
I dont know what PFSP is
no one has ever said SSPX priests are not validly ordained. I don't know where you heard that
@@TheLastRoyalty Sorry, the PFSP is the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter. And apologies again, but I thought a message from this discussion was that priests ordained by bishops in these orders are not validly ordained. Guess I'm wrong :(
@@christopherconey732 The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter are all valid priests in communion with the local bishop. All of their Sacraments are valid and licit. You have nothing to worry about.
@@jamesharris3972 Thank you for the reply James.
@@chrisconeyscapers5917 You're welcome. I myself am a parishioner of a parish run by the FSSP and the local bishop recently visited. It was a great moment of solidarity.
The book 'Tradition and the Church', by George Agius, would be a much better time investment than Congar's book on The Meaning of Tradition. On the matter of what it means to be "a good and faithful Catholic,' see 'True Obedience in the Church' by Dr. Peter Kwasniewski.
I suppose we can agree to disagree. My issue is that Agius confuses the order of ontology with the order of epistemology when it comes to Tradition’s relationship to Revelation. As for Kwasniewski’s book, it was very unimpressive, even positively unhelpful.
@@thelogosproject7 Interesting. Perhaps you can critique these 2 books in a future video, and demonstrate your criticisms of them in some detail; if you haven't done that yet. I'd be interested in watching it. Thanks.
This is a good interview, and to me it illustrates the reason why I have had to just step away from the faith for the time being. There are so many contradictions, that no position, really truly makes sense. There are reasonable minds that can exist on all sides, but for there to be no contradiction, the whole thing has to be false. Very ineloquently put here on my part, but I think Steve Skojec explains it best.
One can be reasonable but be wrong at the same time. Both atheists and theists can be reasonable people. Does that mean that neither is true? Also, the people on this show could all be wrong and yet the central claims of Christianity still be true. Even if everyone on the call is wrong that doesn't mean atheism is true and theism false. It also wouldn't mean Christianity is false, it would just mean that Catholicism isn't true.
I will pray for you. Take care!
@@kyler9323 agreed, thanks for the response
Is the adult baptism and confirmation I received from the SSPX 3 years ago invalid?
Not invalid, no. If you have become a parishioner at a parish in communion with the local bishop then you should be good to go. You could double check with the parish priest to see if he wants you to make a profession of faith (something worth doing regardless of circumstances). But if you don’t frequent their chapels any longer and are back in communion with the local bishop then you’re good. God bless!
Bishop Athanasius Schneider has some good things to say about the SSPX that are worth considering in this regard... perhaps the guidance of an orthodox, holy bishop would be helpful as well...
Or… you know… the Magisterium 🤷♂️
@@thelogosproject7 No need to be sarcastic. The current magisterium is divided....
@@lyny8368 “The Magisterium is divided.” I’m not sure what that means? The Magisterium is the college of bishops that are in union with the pope. If you’re divided then you’re ipso facto not the Magisterium. St. Irenaeus covers this in his “Against Heresies.” In other words, “the Magisterium is divided” is an oxymoron.
@@thelogosproject7 All the bishops and the Pope do not agree with each other... So we are left to figuring out where the true magisterium lies; with the Pope and bishops with bad fruits or the few bishops that disagree with them and speak out against the heresies, sacrileges and abuses being promulgated
@@lyny8368 “They do not agree with each other.” Are you saying there is a Magisterial document that says “the authors of this authoritative document disagree with what they have written”? That’s absurd! I would caution against the red herring the SSPX often uses: i.e., “it’s confusing times.” It’s a pernicious excuse for disobedience. That there is corruption, lack of prudence, lack of good judgment, etc. is clear for all to see. But “figuring out where the true Magisterium lies” is the clearest thing I can think of. Are you speaking of the universal ordinary Magisterium? Local ordinary Magisterium? Extraordinary Magisterium? Papal Magisterium? Definitive declaration? Liturgical promulgations? Where is this confusion?
Dr. Salsa should also confirm Canada's cultural "genocide" and condenned the Catholic Church for all missions in the past ,with pope Francis and maybe find a New Order Green church nearby his home were he could be coerent with his narrative.
Behold: the fruits!
I want to apologize for speaking harshly on Pope Francis. I don’t know his interior motives and it’s not my state of life to make judgments upon anyone, let alone the supreme Roman pontiff, the patriarch of the west, the universal pastor, the first amongst equals, and the servants of servants, His holiness, Pope Francis. I say that with all the pomp and pageantry to convey my that I respect him like a son respects his father. Sometimes ive been embarrassed of my parents and that is regrettably uncomfortable. I’ve gotten to meet my dad, Bill, once. In this nearly 5 year time period, I haven’t been impressed, to say the least with his attempts to make amends, do right by me, or build a relationship. But you know what?! Who am I to demand so much action on his part? Why does he have to submit to my will and exceptions? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? I might not understand his actions, or even agree with his decisions, at the end of the day he is my father and his office is due my complete submission. I might not like the man or his actions but I must pray for him truly as my daddy. I get focused on the sick scandal and it takes my gaze from Christ. I get ill focusing on the illness. My anger isn’t justified and I kid myself into thinking it’s righteous anger. That I’m even qualified is utterly silly. Judgment is for God to make. I’m limited to my limited personal research, excited disposition, and poor digestion. Who cares if I’m on the ‘right side’ of this debate - if I just become an annoying cymbal. *Clash* It’s from the enemy to apply political concepts and terminology to matters of the church and the spiritual realm. The church is an organism not simply or plainly a human political structure ; she is a living breathing body that can become disfigured, unrecognizable (like our Lord in his passion) by the betrayal and torture of the very people Christ so dearly thirsts to save. From my personal experience, I only know of one sinner to ever have existed: ME. This is because, I’ve only ever been inside my own head and heart. Maybe I know a little somewhat of my own wretchedness but I know absolutely nothing of the motives and or culpability of others… and so therefore I must give them the benefit of the doubt and excuse them as best as I can in true Christian charity. We love to paint history as good vs evil. Heroes vs villains. Hell I’ve been both and will continue to play both roles until He heals me. We cast our own perception in these roles of clear cut, defined them vs us. But real stories are more complex than those 2D vanilla developments. We are more complicated than that, with much more nuanced subjective aspects. Theosis is simple, not easy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner.
😂
now that he has participated in pagan worship with at least 5 of his cardinals what do you think? you respect a person that is leading his entire flock of millions astray?
🙏🙂🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦
My faith is being tortured ... I'm terrified .
Maybe your faith could be helped by changing your worldview. God bless.
John, you ran across SSPX priests
Luke 9:52-53: And he sent messengers before his face; and going, they entered into a city of the Samaritans, to prepare for him. 53 And they received him not, because his face was of one going to Jerusalem.
These people (SSPX and their fan boys) put Lefebvre so high on the pedestal until he covers the truth, magisterium and ☧Christ’s unconditional charity .. Lefebvre literally becomes an Idol for those people … they are truly lost .. sigh
How do the Eastern Orthodox fit into things?
The liturgical tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church is as strong as it’s ever been.
The abuses in the Novus Ordo are egregious, but if God will allow His own body to be scourged, mocked, beaten, and crucified, then it can surely happen to the liturgy.
Perhaps many of the traditionalists would have only accepted a Transfigured Christ (TLM) but not a suffering one (clown mass Novus Ordo presided by a modernist).
Question is, who will stand at the foot of the cross while others flee due to scandal?
This is an excellent point. Our priest said something similar in a sermon a few weeks ago- that Christ allowed himself to be beaten and scourged beyond recognition, but the biblical prophecy of "not a bone of His shall be broken" was fulfilled, and the "structure" of His body remained intact. Likewise, the Church may be almost unrecognizable at times, but the structure of the Church (the Pope and bishops in the order of the hierarchy) will always remain intact, and we must follow them and put our trust in Christ.
God bless John Salza for leaving the SSPX schism, he is a great man
If Bergoglio is Pope ,
my faith can't survive .
That's sad to hear. I encourage you to deepen your search and your faith. Read great theologians who discuss the Church today (substantial thinkers, not just TAN book summaries). God bless.
Great talk but the ICKSP is no better. Both are riddled with sex abuse. There’s also the Fr. Jackson situation in the FSSP. The clericalism in all the trad groups is over the top. I’m happy now to be in a great parish staffed by Benedictines. We have a great Benedictine Abbey and College next door..
What abuse in the ICKSP? Not challenging you, just curious. I recall hearing about one priest from the 90s, I believe, but nothing that would constitute being "riddled" with abuse.
... interested in the abuse within ICKSP as well.
Timothy Svea was their US superior who molested 30 boys. The ICKSP tried to cover it up along with Cardinal (then Bishop) Burke. They attacked anyone who tried to bring justice for the victims. One priest even broke the seal of confession. I’ve known former seminarians who left because of the homosexuality they encountered in ICKSPs seminary and houses. Svea finally was charged and convicted but only served an 18 month sentence due to the judge being a classmate of one of their benefactors. I’m done with trad groups. I’ll go to the TLM in a parish but that’s it. I’m glad to be back in a good parish in a town with a great Catholic College and Benedictine Abbey. The Abbey has the TLM every Sunday and Holy Day during the school year.
@@kurtandrews5844 Not judging your accusations either way, but do you have any more proof against Cardinal Butke on that issue? That's quite an accusation.
@@trad-lite I saw correspondence with him from victims and families. I’m an advocate for sexual abuse victims. Most victims have left the church. I’m really sick of the cult that’s been built around Burke, Schneider, and Vigano
John Salza doesn't need to teach the Catholic faith. He is not in the hierarchy. So what he teaches is his opinion. I don't need to agree with him. And as far as mission... preserving the tradition of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass IS mission. It contains the Precious Blood of Jesus, which is our salvation. So what if people who are not in the hierarchy (by the way, Saint Athanasius was also excommunicated in his day) say the SSPX is in schism.... We have a crisis in the Church because of the hierarchy. When you have hardly any good shepards to lead you, you have to follow the hierarchy that is preserving the traditional faith. And why was John Salza saying that he wasn't attending the SSPX for doctrinal and liturgical reasons. That is one reason you DO attend the mass. Furthermore, he was once a mason. I don't feel I can trust his opinion. He could possibly still be a mason. Maybe he needs to be doing another type of work besides giving his opinion. Sorry but I am jaded by his opinion since he was once a Mason. And Mr. Salza, 20 years of being a traditional Catholic and apologist is not a "game" as you referred to it. I watched about 15 minutes of this... Not wasting any more of my time
-John shouldn’t teach!
-TLM is mission!
-Athanasius!
-ad hominems!
I hear the exact same list over and over.
@@thelogosproject7 Pride cometh before the fall
@@lyny8368 I think, therefore I am. Time is money. Fortune favors the bold. Practice makes perfect.
Mary MelJean
You've got it right Lyn y. Their small minded responses prove their pride!
This seems to me like a pump and dump scheme you see in the financial world. This only leads to profit for the pumper then dumper. I have had the opposite experience than the speakers. I was charismatic for a time, then regular NO who went trad and isn’t going back.
You’re not fighting modernism because you ARE modernists. You’ll put up with anything. Good luck with that.
Thank you so much for this video. It will be having the opposite of your intended effect, praise God
That must be why I am constantly receiving emails from people who tell me that they left the SSPX because of our videos.
@@thelogosproject7 Which explains why the SSPX is growing
@@edwardo737 so the SSPX is growing thanks to our video? I’m flattered that you think we have made such an impact… If I’ve ever seen a stretch, it’s this.
John Salza did not prove SSPX schism here. ;) Only that Abp.Lefebvre was not conciliar and peaceful. Lots of strawmen here :)
Simple question, if the SSPX is not in the Church the exorcims which SSPX priests and bishops are doing would not work. Any knowledge about it? :)
Exorcisms in eastern orthodox churxhes work too bad argument
The church of the first millenium was conciliar and its very traditional so the second bad argument
@@katholischetheologiegeschi1319 I dont think that Saint Athanasius was conciliar :)
@@ZlyKaraluch well the church in the first millenium was very conciliar🤣
@@katholischetheologiegeschi1319 By conciliar I mean a man who is ready to defend his position even if it may hurts anybody :)
@Fundamentum Veritatis www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/dear-traditional-catholics-dont-trust.html
I am disappointed at John Salza, especially since he has written interesting books about the masons and about the masonic infiltration in the Church (dates back way before 1962, the NO rite was one the biggest accomplishments of the Masonic infiltration).
I do want to say that in fact, marriages in the SSPX in so many cases are still not valid because the SSPX are still defying the local Bishop who won't give the SSPX permission in many places where the FSSP is located as well. I know this for a fact because it has happened to several family members. The sspx priest literally laughed about the fact that the Bishop refuses to give his permission to them for marriages.
Does refusal of permission by the bishop make the marriage invalid or illicit? If it is invalid, then why would the Church recognize the validity of Eastern Orthodox marriages?
@@csaszar07 a Catholic marriage requires the licit witness of a delegate of the Church. It’s different for non-Catholics.
@@csaszar07 when I came back into the Church after being a third generation sspx attendee, raised and attending Mass and the Sacraments in the SSPX for 30+ years my husband and I were told we needed to have our marriage convalidated. So in fact in the eyes of the Church SSPX marriages are invalid. And since the SSPX still refuse to meet the requirements set out by Pope Francis for a valid marriage they are still invalid.
The validly ordained SSPX priests and bishops don’t count as delegates of the Church?
@@Slaughter013 That’s correct: they have no canonical mission.
Let's see- you guys are saying that the SSPX is NOT a part of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church because it does not have a "canonical mission". But I suppose in the next breath you would say that the anonymous Christian in Bora Bora is part of the church through "Baptism of Desire" because Pius XII said so in a monitum concerning Fr Feeney.
Guys, you have divinized canon law, the first decretals of which were written by Raymond of Pennefort in 1234 and only codified in 1917.
Really, you guys sound like Ensign Parker of McHale's Navy citing regulations while the PT-73 is surrounded by Nipponese destroyers and being shredded by 88mm flak.
Now, I have my beefs about the SSPX too, and Bishop Felley, and Bishop Williamson, and Fr Pfeiffer, to be sure, and I am tempted to think that the SSPX is ultimately nothing but a donut society where people argue about how many popes can stand on the chair of Peter.
It is just another version of the FSSP, ICK, the CMRI, and all the other rainbow colors of Trad crisis Lite.
Our Lady of Fatima... who???
The Prophet Daniel spoke of the Abomination of Desolation, which was specifically referenced by Our Lord Jesus Christ in two Gospel versions of His eschatological discourse concerning the End of the World, or, at the very least, His Second Coming, which may or may not be concurrent.
The bottom line for me is that if the "New Mass" is NOT the Abomination of Desolation spoken of, then what the heck could be??
In the last 50 years we have seen the most horrible sacrileges committed in the name of ecumenism, openess, love...
My only consolation is that the vast majority of these "Masses" are categorically invalid, the "clerics" were invalidly ordained, and at this point I would wonder what percentage of these clowns running around in red hats are actually validly ordained, as the practices and theology of the Councilar church departs from the holy Council of Trent in too many ways sundry to enumerate here.
We have Pope Frantic happily promoting the bogus Covidocracy Plandemic and ordering death jabs for his staff, and concerning the issue of sodomy (both within and outside his ranks, he shrugs his shoulders. "Who am I to judge?"
But you guys sound as though we are blessed by St Linus happily reigning.
Well, enjoy arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Enjoy hyperinflation, lawlessness, and, if we're lucky, just a merciful and quick nculear annihilation at the onset of WW3.
Hope you are praying your rosary and wearing your scapular like your life depends on it, because it sure does.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us. You are our only hope!!
That's quite a negative outlook you have there, my friend. Why not rejoice that you are part of Holy Mother Church, be thankful that you are a member of the Mystical Body, and be grateful to live in today's day and age when you can suffer with the church and assist her through these trials? Bemoaning the current state of things does not help, but offering your struggles certainly does.
@@andym5995
I don't look at the truth as being a "negative outlook". Acknowledging the truth is the first step to true peace. Peace is the tranquility of order. A heart rooted in the truth will always be at peace even when the storm tosses the boat about the waves of the sea.
We all have to die some time. And if we die well the outcome will be most happy and positive.
... Christ is our hope. Jesus, I Trust in Thee. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us!
@Berry Jones
Cardinal Burke told Michael Voris when the latter asked if the SSPX was in schism... "Absolutely!" But Cardinal Ratzinger told six people in Hawaii that they could receive the sacraments in good conscience at an SSPX chapel. So which is it? Most bishops will tell a person that "the SSPX is not in full communion with the Catholic Church", which implies there is such a thing as "partial communion". Go ask your bishop. I would bet my bottom dollar you will not get a straight answer, unless he is some papal choirboy like Cardinal Cupich.
As for Baptism of Desire- I firmly believe in it as it was upheld by the Church Fathers and the Council of Trent, as opposed to the idea of the "Noble Pagan" that was condemned by the Fathers but upheld by Rahner and Pius XII. One MUST have supernatural faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ in order to attain the Beatific Vision.
Know your Faith, Love your Faith, and Live your Faith.
@Berry Jones
You are simply wrong. When I was in Dickinson TX the local bishop used to send people that wanted the Traditional Mass to the SSPX. In many places also in the '90's this was also the case. Hostility to the SSPX varied wildly from diocese to diocese.
If there was a clear cut pronouncement that the SSPX was in schism, people could point to it, and that would be that.
Pope JP2 said that Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated by virtue of canon law- he never exercised his direct pontifical authority to excommunicate either Archbishop Lefebvre, Castro de meyer, or Felley, Williamson, Tisserant, or Galeleta. Likewise, when Bishop Rifan was consecrated, there was nary an outcry.
As for the Hawaii affair, Ratzingers letter speaks for itself. It is mushy and arcane, to be sure, but nowhere did it state that any of the accused had committed a grave canonical offense.
The bottom line is that the Counciliar Church has become like NASA- Never a Straight answer.
What is Salza going to tell us a year from now? His message drastically changes over time. Close your ears to another laywer.
Maybe open your mind to the truth and you might learn something.
Being intellectually responsible requires assessing arguments, not dismissing persons. Logic 101.
@@thelogosproject7 exactly, what a cop out....I challenge the person commenting to tell us they have never ever changed their mind about anything, ever in their entire life. If they haven't they are one proud person and if they have they are just being a hypocrite for acting like Salza is not to be trusted because he changed his views on something after doing more research.
Weak.
Bunch of modernist nonsense. Salza is way off base. First of all, the SSPX affirms the validity of the NOM. But you know who does not? The 2/3 of NOM attendees in the US, who reject transubstantiation. Second, Salza seems to be claiming that the SSPX does not offer a valid mass. If he is actually claiming that, then he is wrong, and should be ignored.
I know this "modernist nonsense" may challenge some of your views if you have grown up in SSPX culture, but if you take a step back and are willing to look at it objectively instead of through the lens of trad talking points you've been told, it really makes a lot of sense. I know because I've been there. Please keep an open mind to these things, I promise it will be helpful if you allow it to be. Copying and pasting inflammatory comments with every upload does nobody any good.
@@andym5995 I've never even attended an SSPX Mass. But the attacks against the SSPX are unfounded. They are not schismatic. They offer a valid Mass. The consecrated host at an SSPX Mass is the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. Salza has gone off the rails.
@@tradcath2976 then it's a good thing I added an "if" qualifier so I don't look like an idiot :)
I don't deny that they offer a valid Mass. But pointing out their flaws is not "attacking" them, and they are certainly not unfounded if this issues are legitimate. Which they are. I know we're not going to agree on that but again, listening to what these guys have to say is a better use of your time than being provocative.
@@andym5995 If it were not for the SSPX, there would not be an TLMs offered anywhere. SSPX and Abp Lefebvre saved the Latin Mass for posterity. The misguided guy who runs this channel should be thankful for SSPX.
@@tradcath2976 and we can be thankful, as they were a legitimate society and may have preserved it through their approved ministry before all the turmoil. But their actions from 1988 onward simply are not justified, no matter how much you try to fit all the canonical square pegs into round holes.
Also, if you have never attended one of their Masses, I would urge you to reconsider before jumping to their defense. I know it looks like a utopia from the outside, but once you've been entrenched in their culture for a number of years, you get a real glimpse behind the curtain and it is quite ugly.