Ben, great video 1- regarding the top rail. When you're drilling the base rail, clamp the top rail down the center of the base. So when you make a drill plunge you make a duplicate. Use a drill stop in the cap, not to drill through the top cap. Boar out larger size hole into spindles and bottom of cap rail, to use wood dowels and glue to secure top rail. Finished product is strong as using hardware. 2- another method to secure top rail. Make a dual section cap. A plate that's rectangular in shape and the width of the spindle, line up cap like above screw all the way through. Adhere from the top down into the spindles with screws. Place a "U" shape cap rail over the base rail. Glue the mounted cap, shoot finished brads into the sides. Now you have the strength of the screw and a finished hand rail cap no securing method showing 🙂
I started scrolling through the comments to see if anyone suggested dowels or a two piece cap, and you beat me to both! Two piece caps without even trying to hide the (thin, 0.25-0.75") lower layer are common near me, especially on decks.
Baluster Formula with fillets or spacing without shoe molding: I usually take the TS(total span) and divide it by 5.5 to get an approximate BN(baluster number) then plug it into the following formula. Other variables are BW(baluster width) and the result your aiming for which is FL(fillet length) So say 100” for TS divided by 5.5” = about 18 balusters EXAMPLE- TS-(BNxBW)/BN+1=FL 100-(18x1.5)/18+1=FL 100-27/19=FL 73/19=FL 3.84=FL So FL=about 3 13/16” spacing or fillet length I then Check it just like you, marking off the spacing and adjust the last 3 balusters(on a run this long) for pretty much consistent looking spacing. This works best for square balusters. For balusters that have been turned with deep grooves I usually divide the TS by “5” to bring the balusters a bit closer to try to hit the 4 inch mark. Learned this from my Uncle years ago.
Fml we did a whole ass week on baluster spacing/equal spaces in 4th year and I completely forgot all of it, this was the formula I was trying to remember!
Great video honestly it really helped. I was breaking my head for about two hours trying to figure out how to evenly space them on a railing with a curve. This helped me make a spacer for in between each spindle and therefore I wouldn’t have to worry about them sliding down anymore. Thank you so much!
I was a custom deck builder for almost 30 years. The simplest method that I ever used, was making a very simple jig. Assuming you're working with 1.5" baluster w/ a 4" center... 1. Mark the layout on a piece of scrap wood...1.5" on each end w/ 4" center. 2. Assuming you're not exceeding a layout beyond 8' (post to post), you can accomplish each section layout in well under 2 minutes...Start by transferring the marks from the jig onto your rail (use a light pencil mark). Keep the jig in your pouch for quick easy access. 3. Lets assume that the last mark is 3" from the end post (opposite from your first mark)...You now know that you can just divide the 3" & then remark the rail a second time w/ a 1.5" space off of the first post. It's so easy, it sounds stupid. No calculators or paper needed, fast & easy...especially if working outside in the elements. Works on any rail, stair rails take a little more practice, but still basically works the same.
I have to agree your method is how I would do it too, also the side spindle section would have been uniform with the main panel and you could save the template to use on the next job.
Great content, love your videos! I think the reason your layout didn't ad up is simple, you measured your empty space with all the spindles pushed together which is great, that accounts for all the variences the spindles may have.. when you did your lay out you used the same block repeatedly... Which doesn't account for the variences between 20 pieces.. I guess one way your method would have worked out is if you had used a thickness planer prior to doing the layout.. it only takes 8 spindles to be short by 1/32 to equate that 1/4" gap. Hope this makes sense! Cheers :)
Nice work, always enjoy your videos. I was just trying to remember how I used to do this. Been so long since I laid one out I'll just stick to your method if I've got to do again. 👍👍 I got the butterfly or California patch for drywall down to a science now, helping me out in a big way.
When installing, start in the middle so that you can do your little fudge on each ends. Second, when checking your dimensions with your pencil and block, you can cut the time it takes in half by only doing half, and then confirming it to be halfway with the tape measure. This is true of any divided, segmented material layout.
For attaching the top to spindles you can use a 1x board on top and screws straight down just as you did not want to do. Then place that nice 2x rail. Then you can screw through the 1x from underside and secure it to 2x cap. You can dress the seam between the 2 boards with small molding.
Thoroughly enjoyed the video. Simple tip on most jobs requiring equal spacing I do the math then simply start in the middle and work outwards, thereby equally spacing the minor inevitable difference between the two ends.
Fitting spindles in the UK is way much easier than that set up. Most handrails and baserails are grooved so the spindles sit in. The spacer block comes as one thin length, chop it up into the lengths you need and tack or glue them in between the spindles. I often work in imperial but such jobs as spindles, metric is much easier.
I was just about to comment that poor americans, while most of the world uses the simple system, you still need to mess around with this non-intuitive wtf system -- but is interesting to see that even some of YOU do realize that there's a simpler way and grab a metric tape when things get serious :D
@Ms. Tal A lot of construction tape measures don't have centimeters, that's one of my pet peeves since I like to do complex calculations like this in metric instead (I'm in Canada, they don't teach us the Imperial system anymore so it's all archiac to me).
I forgot to add. I subscribed because I like your relaxed style of presenting and I have a room taping job coming up with my son. I have done taping before like patching and several garages but I have confidence to do a room!
I rebuilt my front porch yesterday. Today we did the railing. After trying a little math I wound up using sketch-up. There is a division tool that will give you the exact dimension. Yes, I then cut a spacer. For longer runs of railing like on my deck, I put down masking tape for the last 4 feet or so. If it wasn't coming out quite right I would make an adjustment on another piece of tape. But basically the same as what you are doing here. Thanks for the upload.
I measure what inside is. divide in half make center mark. nail spindle at top centered on mark. level spindle nail off then use 2x4. spacer hold spindles on edge 2x4 and check level ever so often usually comes out even sometime have cut one in half..looks very nice! love your work!
If i want even spaces like here, I roughly measure how many spindles I need and what their distance from one to another should be. I always try to get an uneven number of spindles and then start with the one in the middle. That creates two "windows" to the right and the left of my first spindle whose center I can use again. Then I just go on using the centers in the windows arising and all the spindles are in even distances. Takes a little longer than your method but gets everything perfectly evenly spaced. Sorry for my bad English, I hope you somehow know what I mean... 😊
That actually works even with an even amount of spindles if you use the space of your two starter spindles as the starting point. Also, on this project, I might have added one spindle on the riser length to more closely mirror the spaces on the width length.
nothing better than having a perfectly sized spacer block and of course it ends up being the perfect size for another trade to put in their pocket and walk off with! Great informative video!
First I have to say that I just love, love, love your videos! Now I think I would've used your spacer and laid all of your spindles out in order to get a good feel for how they would line up in the run. Then make your adjustments and marks as needed. After putting the single screw in the bottom of each one I would go back with a small nail towards the corner of each in order to keep them from ever twisting. On the top after getting your marks made use wooden dowels in the center of each and you can still use a small nail to the side of each just drive it a little more than halfway into each spindle and then cut the head off at an angle. I hope this helps in the future for projects that won't be painted. :-)
Good tips. The only thing I would do different would be to start your layout from the center and work outside each direction. That way your layout is symmetrical and any small differences in the outside gap next to the newel post would not be noticed.
I use the same math as you do for calculating the baluster space distance. I don't fumble around with a tape measure or cut a spacing block to lay out because of the accumulative errors that will occur. I use dividers to walk off the spacing before hand and you can tell straight away when you're wrong. I usually start from the top rail and plumb bob down to start the bottom.
When I worked for a stair builder, we would use a pair of dividers set to the distance between the ballisters on center. Then starting from the center point of the first ballister, walk them down to the location of the center of the last ballister. If you were off, adjust the dividers more or less to compensate for the difference, then walk them down again from start to finish. At each point, we drilled holes in the floor and the railing for the ballister dowel pins, which we glued in place. This method was fast and accurate and works for curves as well as straight lines. We once built and put in an elliptical staircase where the curve of the balcony followed the ellipse curve of the stairs and this method worked perfectly.
This Old House had an awesome method for this. Get some elastic from the fabric store and lay it out between the newel posts. Starting at one end make a mark on the elastic every 4". At the far end of course you'll have something less than 4" to the other newel post. Hold down the starting end and stretch the elastic until the last mark lines up with the newel post. All the marks will move proportionately. Transfer your marks to your work piece and walla! Perfectly spaced spindles. Note that since spindles are typically 1-1/2" thick you have some room to stretch before you end up with greater than 4" gaps between the spindles.
Nooooooo!!!! No screws. Dowel it! Or even better, make a dado in the center of your rail, take a rectangular piece the would fit, screw that piece down to the posts, then screw through that piece up into the rail. Nice video. I’m just passionate about not exposing metal if there’s a way to avoid it.
I am doing railing in my tiny home...here is my math. overall on 1 wall.101 1/2 round up 102 divided by 2.2 sizes of spindles=47 divide space of 3in = 17. Each decimal answer is rouned up :)
I am a 66 yr old handyman in Northern California wine country - Sonoma County - NOT Napa. I have been handy manning for 27 years - before that I was a mechanical engineer in Silicon Valley. Regarding your spacing -- that is exactly how i do it. There is ALWAYS a little fudge factor at the end that you distribute among the last 3-6 pieces. Well done! Human perception is NOT THAT accurate!
Start marking from middle and you halve marking error and both ends would be similar. Make top rail from 2 piece lower part you screw just way you did bottom then glue upper part to it little bit sanding on both side when glue is dry no need to fill any screw hole.
A curiosity about a potential alternative order of operations since I haven't had to work with spindles yet: 1.) Mark center line along length of base plate 2.) Do the math to determine spacing based on spindle centers 3.) Walk a pair of wing dividers, opened to the spacing determined in step 2, along the center line to mark the center of each spindle's attachment point 4.) Drill and screw to install spindles Would that be any faster and/or more consistent without having to fudge spacing at the end?
Or even contrasting wood dowels, but definitely a client discussion required for that one! I've also seen a ⅛" deep track routed under the handrail to align the spindles, which are then screw fixed inline, so the putty is in shadow. It gave the rail additional purchase in the hand, but I wished that the carpenter had sanded the finest bevel, as the edge was a little sharp in places where the polyurethane had formed drip edges.
I think he's suggesting that the dowels not be visible at all. You can make the dowels whatever color or wood species you want if they're jammed into two blind holes.
I start in the center and then work to the left and right. Cuts layout deviations in half. Your job looks great. A deviation of a half inch no one will notice, or care about if you point it out to them.
Instead of marking the top rail on the bottom of the spindles you can make a template piece the same length and put those marks on it, then put it on top of the spindles and attach it to both the newel posts so it doesn't move, line up and drill all the dowel holes. Take that template and drill the top rail, then cut the template in half and use it to clamp the spindles in alignment. Simpler than it sounds.
I have seen the plowed rails and fillets and thought the benefit was just cosmetic and ease of installation. I didn't realize it adds strength. I also considered when the time came, it would be easy enough to make with router or dado stack. Band saw for fillet.
Being in the process of renovating my mother's old apartment I really need to stop watching your videos, as everytime I see a new topic, I want to try renovating or changing out something more in her house 😅 Thank you for the great videos!!
hot furniture making tip for hiding screws (if you're not doing it properly with joinery): for each screw mark the position, then use a gouge to peel up a small shaving on the area where the screw will go. don't cut it all the way, leave it attached at one end, so what you will end up is a thin curl of wood adjacent to each screw position. put in your screw, then glue down each curl over the screw and fasten tightly with tape. let it dry, a light sanding and you're good to go. the fixings will be completely invisible.
Could you have screwed it down from the top iif you split the board. Then cut off placed on top held by screws inserted from the bottom. All screw hidden and only one additional cut?
When I turned my deck into a screened porch I recycled all of the spindles. They were much longer and angled on the ends where they screwed onto the side of the deck. I recut them and since they were old and weathered I sanded every single one of them until the gray was gone and they looked brand new. I had the same issue with spacing. With a screened in porch you have the roof posts spaced among the spindles. Most of the posts are just 2x4's but in the center and corners you have a 4x4 to carry the weight, so calculating the gap on the sides was the thing. But what was hard was inserting the railing back on between the roof posts. How do you screw them into place? Screwing from an angle through the 4x4 posts is not fun. Splitting the wood sucks. So I came up with an ingenious method. Each railing is held in place with 2 screws and two dowel rods. I would drill a wide hole half way through the 2x4 post on one side, then drill a narrow hole the rest of the way to the other side. This would allow me to counter sink the screw half way through the post and into the railing on one side. Then I would put a dowel rod in the wide end and that would be one of the supports for the rail on the other side. No ugly screws drilled through the posts at angles (except on the corners). And to make things more interesting once the rail and spindles were put in I installed lights in the railing. I took apart a strand of outdoor lights, carefully analyzing how the wires cross over and around each other. The way they wire them up is not what you would expect. Then I drilled small holes into the side of the rail to the center (evenly spaced so there were 3 lights between each roof post), and drilled a wide hole, the size of the socket, from the top of the rail. Then I fished the socket and wires that I cut down through the large hole and through the narrow hole to the front and pushed the socket down so it was mostly recessed. Then I wired all of them back up in the criss cross method I observed and spliced them all back together. Then I cut a channel into a 2x2 and carefully fed the wires into it and screwed that over the rail and over the 4x4 posts hiding the wires. And then I took a bunch of clear colored plastic cups I got at Target, that actually look like colored glass, but since they were plastic I could drill wide holes in the bottom with my drill press, then I put them over the top of the sockets that stick up out of the rail, and then screw the light bulbs in. I put all of them on a dimmer so I can sit outside and enjoy a refreshing beverage while looking at all my colored lights.
Great method on the layout. Re:top screws I would have used a 1/4” x 1.5” sub-rail strip and top screwed/glued into that. Then either let that form a 1/4” shadow line on the underside of the cap, or plowed a 1.5” wide dado the length of the cap rail, either full 1/4” depth for a flush look, or maybe 1/8” to leave a 1/8” shadow line. Either way, then you glue and screw UP into the cap rail. You still have a few fasteners to conceal but it’s much less noticeable, and can add a lot of strength if glued/clamped.
I was with you at 112.25" being divided by 21 which gives a spacing or 5.34". Your first spacing from either post would be 5.34" less 3/4" (half the with of a baluster) and then 5.34" for each baluster center after that. I use divider calipers and walk off the spacing to the next newel. If the spacing is slightly off I make a minor adjustment in the caliper and start from the other end until the spacing is correct. You can also use a calculator and keep adding 5.34" to get the next center.
I use the elastic band truck as seen on " how to build a porch rail,, this old house". There is no measuring ,other than to confirm you're under 4" and it is super fast.
Nice work. If you want to screw them in from the side, rather than tonail them in use pocket screws. It is much easier and when you fill the holes, it provides a nice clean look.
As far as the handrail either use dowels and glue or use screw in between pickets and cover screw holes by cutting fillet pieces and pin nail them through the fillet. Hope that helps.
Nice to come across this. Any videos on the other components of this hand rail construction? The attachment of the posts to the base(shoe rail) for example.
You can also use an elastic band, divide the length by the amount of posts and put a mark, then stretch it out over the railing and transfer the marks.
There illusion of perfection... Dates back to the Parthenon, where the floor isn't level by design to allow outside observers to perceive it as level instead of sagging in the middle.
Also the 4 corner pillars are thicker than the others. The corners will have the bright sky beside them, which would make them appear thinner. What I get from the Parthenon is: the builders were so good at building them, they'd obviously built perfect ones before that didn't look right. So they had the experience to know how to fudge geometric perfection to overcome optical illusions.
also dowels and glue is best for setting hand rail. no holes, no nails stronger connection. We will use a piece of flat mdd baseboard or something nice and straight at the base plate clamped parallel to the base plate against the first and last post which will keep all the posts parallel as it dries. if the rail is bowed in the centre you can toe screw the middle spindle top and bottom or you can use a clamp between ceiling and rail to push down over night
Here in England the top rail has a rebate all the way along it. So you don't fix the spindles at all. Instead we make spacer pieces and fix from the underside. Great vids mate!
We don't do them like this in the UK, we use a base with groove and you fit fillets of wood in between the uprights. It looks nice job the way you dit it.
I use the diagonal stick method. If my distance between posts is some random awkward measurement, I cut a piece of lumber longer than that and clamp it from post to post diagonally. If I need 18 spindles, then I might cut it at 95 inches and then mark every 5 inches on the diagonal stick. Attach the stick to your posts, and plumb bob down from your pencil marks on the diagonal clamped on stick and voila, done. Very little math and PERFECT RESULTS EACH TIME. For hiding the nails or screws on the top of the spindles, I often use a nailer strip and go down through there. Then I attach the hand rail by going up through the nailer strip into the hand rail (assuming I'm not using dowels and glue).
Scrolled by an add on FB today of your California Patch video. I was like, hey, I recognize that 4 inch blade! ha. It was linked to you and I am sure it is on the up and up and not stolen. Been following you for a year or so and just thought you would like to know.
Thanks for the overview, I learned a couple of tricks I can use and appreciate it. And you do know that you can buy Imperial measuring tape that has markings in decimal .. right?? That being said, It's not 'easier' in metric if one has the skills and practices. No matter what measuring system is used, one can still end up with an odd fraction depending on the number of spindles one has. Using an 'odd' number of spindles means an even number of spaces which can make the math easier. The reality is that anything less than 1/8 isn't noticeable by most people, and 1/16th by most of the rest. Adjusting at the ends works. In this case, you could have done one at 3 13/16s and the next and 3 14/16ths (7/8s). Then the adjustments at the end would have been even less. I find that starting in the middle can be better as one has two ends to make the micro-adjustments. It can require a little more precision at first, but I've done it successfully. Regardless, thank you for taking the time to make the video. I always learn something new watching your videos.
That is pure nonsense, you're not going to end up with a fraction using the metric system, if you do, you're doing it wrong. That's the point of the metric system. Meters, centimeters, millimeters, micrometers, nanometers, picometers... so on. Need more precision, go down the scale.
13.5/16" is also 27/32" which one can find on an imperial tape measure. This is a great argument for the metric system, and I'm american. Imperial system is cumbersome and archaic.
For the top rail, particularly since this will be painted - could you thickness the rail to be ~3/16" oversized then rip it 3/4's up from the bottom. Use the 3/4''s piece to attach it directly into your spindles from the top. Than glue your remaining 1/4" piece to the in place top and plane the sides flush of any variation? Basically, just veenering a top on to hide all the screw heads?
Nails have stronger sheer strength, screws have stronger hold down strength. Not sure the proper term, but screws resist being pulled out. Screws are easier to remove without destroying things, which is rather handy when things don't go as planned.
(Total length + width of one post) devided by number of spaces. That should give you the spacing between each post, except start and end is minus half the width of a post. This only works if all posts are the same size. I would also predrill top and bottom at the same time, but not all the way through the top. Then make the predrilled holes in the top larger to fit a dowel, and use that to hold the posts. Gluing that is just as strong, if not stronger, than a screw.
I like the simple look of the railing and posts. What was the name of that wood again? Clear Hemlock? Is it expensive? Can you give the dimensions of the lumber used. Thanks
another formula I have used is total distance between post plus the picket thickness divided by 5.5 inches then divide by 21 then you math will turn out right.
I do exactly what you do to get the initial spacing, but then I mark out from center out so that any run-out from marking errors gets eaten up evenly on the extremities where they are less noticeable because the material dimension change.
I would start laying out the short side. First with minimum number of spindles (closest to max 4") and then with one extra. After that I calculate the long side, given the two spaces, to see wich one of theese would be the best match. From there I would either move the post slightly or use the space that is the best match and adjust it. This way I get the smallest difference on short and long side.
I like the method used by the guys on this old house, grab a stretchy elastic waist band from the fabric store and mark it with 4" increments, then you stretch it out over the length of your workpiece. Much easier than doing math.
Step it off with dividers starting with 5.5" maximum and making adjustments until it comes out evenly... you are marking one side of the spindle. Once set, if needed, work from the other end of the railing to mark the other side of the spindle. This will also tell you how many spindles you need whereas you had to figure that out beforehand. This eliminates the marking creep that can happen when marking in the manner demonstrated, and it also eliminates the rounding errors that come from converting decimals to fractions.
Nice one! I have been considering doing something similar. How about the post at the top of the stairs? It is rigid enough? Did you just screw the base board to the floor, with the post glued + bolted to the board from below?
Good video - If viewing in the UK the 4" GAP would not be suitable as it comes to almost 102mm metric. You would have to do the same as above but allow for 99mm max gap as Building Control states that "Construction should be such that a 100mm sphere CANNOT pass through any opening in the guarding" - hence 99mm max. (Possibly allow for even tighter spacing if not straight but curved spindles and or newels)
Just get an 8 foot piece of elastic band from a fabric store. Then you make 20 evenly spaced marks on the band and then stretch the band to fit the space. The marks will then be evenly spaced.
Start from each end , then meet in the middle , use millimetres as well , be a lot easier mate put a groove in the underside of the handrail and use glue , and tenon the handrail to the post
Spacing is actually supposed to be four inches ON CENTER. This way, skinny wrought iron spindles and beefy wooden spindles are spaced safely with a space that can't possibly be more than 4 inches
Wes Buckley that makes sure there is not an issue, but so does a 1” gap. The requirement is 4” spacing between. Balusters must be installed close enough that the space between them is no greater than 4 inches. A 4-inch ball might be used by the inspector to verify the spacing. Once installed, I think there is also a requirement for the balusters to hold up under 50 lbs. of pressure exerted over a 1-square-foot area
Perhaps it is just the manufacturer's install instructions on using 4 inch center to center, and not the building code book. One could assume they would be the same, but knowing that the maximum open space is 4 inches could help even out layout and save the cost of one extra spindle.
Ben, great video
1- regarding the top rail. When you're drilling the base rail, clamp the top rail down the center of the base. So when you make a drill plunge you make a duplicate. Use a drill stop in the cap, not to drill through the top cap. Boar out larger size hole into spindles and bottom of cap rail, to use wood dowels and glue to secure top rail. Finished product is strong as using hardware.
2- another method to secure top rail. Make a dual section cap. A plate that's rectangular in shape and the width of the spindle, line up cap like above screw all the way through. Adhere from the top down into the spindles with screws. Place a "U" shape cap rail over the base rail. Glue the mounted cap, shoot finished brads into the sides.
Now you have the strength of the screw and a finished hand rail cap no securing method showing 🙂
that first method sounds like a winner
I started scrolling through the comments to see if anyone suggested dowels or a two piece cap, and you beat me to both! Two piece caps without even trying to hide the (thin, 0.25-0.75") lower layer are common near me, especially on decks.
@@1980rburgess 😆 Great minds think alike.
I would use hanger bolts on the top. Seems that would be the quick and secure method, then do your bottom rail.
@@1980rburgess I just did the same thing. One thing though, Mansard Manor went into a lot more detail. I bet he's done it before!
Baluster Formula with fillets or spacing without shoe molding:
I usually take the TS(total span) and divide it by 5.5 to get an approximate BN(baluster number) then plug it into the following formula. Other variables are BW(baluster width) and the result your aiming for which is FL(fillet length) So say 100” for TS divided by 5.5” = about 18 balusters
EXAMPLE-
TS-(BNxBW)/BN+1=FL
100-(18x1.5)/18+1=FL
100-27/19=FL
73/19=FL
3.84=FL
So FL=about 3 13/16” spacing or fillet length
I then Check it just like you, marking off the spacing and adjust the last 3 balusters(on a run this long) for pretty much consistent looking spacing. This works best for square balusters. For balusters that have been turned with deep grooves I usually divide the TS by “5” to bring the balusters a bit closer to try to hit the 4 inch mark. Learned this from my Uncle years ago.
I like your formula just easier with a few more parentheses. (TN-(BNxBW))/(BN+1)= spacing
Fml we did a whole ass week on baluster spacing/equal spaces in 4th year and I completely forgot all of it, this was the formula I was trying to remember!
Great video honestly it really helped. I was breaking my head for about two hours trying to figure out how to evenly space them on a railing with a curve. This helped me make a spacer for in between each spindle and therefore I wouldn’t have to worry about them sliding down anymore. Thank you so much!
Best advert for the metric system I've ever seen. UK FTW.
It would simply things.
Riiiiiiiiiight? = ))
🤣
Nah when setting the posts you should place the post where they belong. 4x21 + 20x1.5 then set that post!
You got no idea how much I’ve learned from watching your videos man! I love your work ethics and ideas thanks!!!
I was a custom deck builder for almost 30 years. The simplest method that I ever used, was making a very simple jig.
Assuming you're working with 1.5" baluster w/ a 4" center...
1. Mark the layout on a piece of scrap wood...1.5" on each end w/ 4" center.
2. Assuming you're not exceeding a layout beyond 8' (post to post), you can accomplish each section layout in well under 2 minutes...Start by transferring the marks from the jig onto your rail (use a light pencil mark). Keep the jig in your pouch for quick easy access.
3. Lets assume that the last mark is 3" from the end post (opposite from your first mark)...You now know that you can just divide the 3" & then remark the rail a second time w/ a 1.5" space off of the first post. It's so easy, it sounds stupid. No calculators or paper needed, fast & easy...especially if working outside in the elements. Works on any rail, stair rails take a little more practice, but still basically works the same.
But your not ending up with even spaces all the way across.....your last space closest to your post is 1.5" not 4". I do it this way too
I have to agree your method is how I would do it too, also the side spindle section would have been uniform with the main panel and you could save the template to use on the next job.
It’s good to see someone who really cares about quality work.Great video and some very teachable moments.
Great content, love your videos!
I think the reason your layout didn't ad up is simple, you measured your empty space with all the spindles pushed together which is great, that accounts for all the variences the spindles may have.. when you did your lay out you used the same block repeatedly... Which doesn't account for the variences between 20 pieces.. I guess one way your method would have worked out is if you had used a thickness planer prior to doing the layout.. it only takes 8 spindles to be short by 1/32 to equate that 1/4" gap. Hope this makes sense! Cheers :)
Nice work, always enjoy your videos. I was just trying to remember how I used to do this. Been so long since I laid one out
I'll just stick to your method if I've got to do again. 👍👍
I got the butterfly or California patch for drywall down to a science now, helping me out in a big way.
When installing, start in the middle so that you can do your little fudge on each ends. Second, when checking your dimensions with your pencil and block, you can cut the time it takes in half by only doing half, and then confirming it to be halfway with the tape measure. This is true of any divided, segmented material layout.
Starting in the middle doesn't give you equal spacing all the way through, that's the only issue.
For attaching the top to spindles you can use a 1x board on top and screws straight down just as you did not want to do. Then place that nice 2x rail. Then you can screw through the 1x from underside and secure it to 2x cap. You can dress the seam between the 2 boards with small molding.
Thoroughly enjoyed the video. Simple tip on most jobs requiring equal spacing I do the math then simply start in the middle and work outwards, thereby equally spacing the minor inevitable difference between the two ends.
Fitting spindles in the UK is way much easier than that set up. Most handrails and baserails are grooved so the spindles sit in. The spacer block comes as one thin length, chop it up into the lengths you need and tack or glue them in between the spindles.
I often work in imperial but such jobs as spindles, metric is much easier.
I use my metric tape measure for things like that. Great work Ben.
I was just about to comment that poor americans, while most of the world uses the simple system, you still need to mess around with this non-intuitive wtf system -- but is interesting to see that even some of YOU do realize that there's a simpler way and grab a metric tape when things get serious :D
The metric system is great until it comes to fighting a world war...
@@brodacious5850 Drop the mic!
@Ms. Tal A lot of construction tape measures don't have centimeters, that's one of my pet peeves since I like to do complex calculations like this in metric instead (I'm in Canada, they don't teach us the Imperial system anymore so it's all archiac to me).
@@gelisob He's Canadian, not American. They technically use metric but in a reality use both depending on the person and situation.
I forgot to add. I subscribed because I like your relaxed style of presenting and I have a room taping job coming up with my son. I have done taping before like patching and several garages but I have confidence to do a room!
I rebuilt my front porch yesterday. Today we did the railing. After trying a little math I wound up using sketch-up. There is a division tool that will give you the exact dimension. Yes, I then cut a spacer. For longer runs of railing like on my deck, I put down masking tape for the last 4 feet or so. If it wasn't coming out quite right I would make an adjustment on another piece of tape. But basically the same as what you are doing here. Thanks for the upload.
I measure what inside is. divide in half make center mark. nail spindle at top centered on mark. level spindle nail off then use 2x4. spacer hold spindles on edge 2x4 and check level ever so often usually comes out even sometime have cut one in half..looks very nice! love your work!
If i want even spaces like here, I roughly measure how many spindles I need and what their distance from one to another should be.
I always try to get an uneven number of spindles and then start with the one in the middle. That creates two "windows" to the right and the left of my first spindle whose center I can use again. Then I just go on using the centers in the windows arising and all the spindles are in even distances. Takes a little longer than your method but gets everything perfectly evenly spaced.
Sorry for my bad English, I hope you somehow know what I mean... 😊
That actually works even with an even amount of spindles if you use the space of your two starter spindles as the starting point.
Also, on this project, I might have added one spindle on the riser length to more closely mirror the spaces on the width length.
nothing better than having a perfectly sized spacer block and of course it ends up being the perfect size for another trade to put in their pocket and walk off with! Great informative video!
You are a mathematician too. Good observation multiplying by 16 is the same as dividing by 1/16. Very cool and a good one. Thanks for this video.
First I have to say that I just love, love, love your videos! Now I think I would've used your spacer and laid all of your spindles out in order to get a good feel for how they would line up in the run. Then make your adjustments and marks as needed. After putting the single screw in the bottom of each one I would go back with a small nail towards the corner of each in order to keep them from ever twisting. On the top after getting your marks made use wooden dowels in the center of each and you can still use a small nail to the side of each just drive it a little more than halfway into each spindle and then cut the head off at an angle. I hope this helps in the future for projects that won't be painted. :-)
Good tips. The only thing I would do different would be to start your layout from the center and work outside each direction. That way your layout is symmetrical and any small differences in the outside gap next to the newel post would not be noticed.
I use the same math as you do for calculating the baluster space distance. I don't fumble around with a tape measure or cut a spacing block to lay out because of the accumulative errors that will occur. I use dividers to walk off the spacing before hand and you can tell straight away when you're wrong. I usually start from the top rail and plumb bob down to start the bottom.
When I worked for a stair builder, we would use a pair of dividers set to the distance between the ballisters on center. Then starting from the center point of the first ballister, walk them down to the location of the center of the last ballister. If you were off, adjust the dividers more or less to compensate for the difference, then walk them down again from start to finish. At each point, we drilled holes in the floor and the railing for the ballister dowel pins, which we glued in place. This method was fast and accurate and works for curves as well as straight lines. We once built and put in an elliptical staircase where the curve of the balcony followed the ellipse curve of the stairs and this method worked perfectly.
That dividing by 16 trick is really handy to know. Great tip!!!
This Old House had an awesome method for this. Get some elastic from the fabric store and lay it out between the newel posts. Starting at one end make a mark on the elastic every 4". At the far end of course you'll have something less than 4" to the other newel post. Hold down the starting end and stretch the elastic until the last mark lines up with the newel post. All the marks will move proportionately. Transfer your marks to your work piece and walla! Perfectly spaced spindles. Note that since spindles are typically 1-1/2" thick you have some room to stretch before you end up with greater than 4" gaps between the spindles.
Nooooooo!!!! No screws. Dowel it!
Or even better, make a dado in the center of your rail, take a rectangular piece the would fit, screw that piece down to the posts, then screw through that piece up into the rail.
Nice video. I’m just passionate about not exposing metal if there’s a way to avoid it.
No way, take off, biscuits!
I feel so dumb, I cant believe i didnt notice that you are the awesome skateboard channel guy
I am doing railing in my tiny home...here is my math. overall on 1 wall.101 1/2 round up 102 divided by 2.2 sizes of spindles=47 divide space of 3in = 17. Each decimal answer is rouned up :)
I am a 66 yr old handyman in Northern California wine country - Sonoma County - NOT Napa. I have been handy manning for 27 years - before that I was a mechanical engineer in Silicon Valley. Regarding your spacing -- that is exactly how i do it. There is ALWAYS a little fudge factor at the end that you distribute among the last 3-6 pieces. Well done! Human perception is NOT THAT accurate!
Start marking from middle and you halve marking error and both ends would be similar.
Make top rail from 2 piece lower part you screw just way you did bottom then glue upper part to it little bit sanding on both side when glue is dry no need to fill any screw hole.
Yup! 2 piece would have been the way to go. I can visualize that.
A curiosity about a potential alternative order of operations since I haven't had to work with spindles yet:
1.) Mark center line along length of base plate
2.) Do the math to determine spacing based on spindle centers
3.) Walk a pair of wing dividers, opened to the spacing determined in step 2, along the center line to mark the center of each spindle's attachment point
4.) Drill and screw to install spindles
Would that be any faster and/or more consistent without having to fudge spacing at the end?
That tone towards the end of the video is a very good way to remind everyone that it's only Monday.
wood dowels top and bottom, nice neat finish nothing showing but I've used clear varnish
Or even contrasting wood dowels, but definitely a client discussion required for that one!
I've also seen a ⅛" deep track routed under the handrail to align the spindles, which are then screw fixed inline, so the putty is in shadow. It gave the rail additional purchase in the hand, but I wished that the carpenter had sanded the finest bevel, as the edge was a little sharp in places where the polyurethane had formed drip edges.
I think he's suggesting that the dowels not be visible at all. You can make the dowels whatever color or wood species you want if they're jammed into two blind holes.
I start in the center and then work to the left and right. Cuts layout deviations in half. Your job looks great. A deviation of a half inch no one will notice, or care about if you point it out to them.
Instead of marking the top rail on the bottom of the spindles you can
make a template piece the same length and put those marks on it, then
put it on top of the spindles and attach it to both the newel posts so
it doesn't move, line up and drill all the dowel holes. Take that
template and drill the top rail, then cut the template in half and use
it to clamp the spindles in alignment. Simpler than it sounds.
Try plowed rails and fillets between your ballusters.. Everything llocks together and only needs bradd. Or a secondary hand rail on top to hide screws
Oh yeah, I was thinking the same thing!
I have seen the plowed rails and fillets and thought the benefit was just cosmetic and ease of installation. I didn't realize it adds strength. I also considered when the time came, it would be easy enough to make with router or dado stack. Band saw for fillet.
Being in the process of renovating my mother's old apartment I really need to stop watching your videos, as everytime I see a new topic, I want to try renovating or changing out something more in her house 😅
Thank you for the great videos!!
😂
hot furniture making tip for hiding screws (if you're not doing it properly with joinery):
for each screw mark the position, then use a gouge to peel up a small shaving on the area where the screw will go. don't cut it all the way, leave it attached at one end, so what you will end up is a thin curl of wood adjacent to each screw position. put in your screw, then glue down each curl over the screw and fasten tightly with tape. let it dry, a light sanding and you're good to go. the fixings will be completely invisible.
WHAT? ok, mind blown. I love learning something new, and that's brilliant.
@@johnhighstreet5199 cabinet makers trick, taught to me by an old timer. glad to pass it on!
Could you have screwed it down from the top iif you split the board. Then cut off placed on top held by screws inserted from the bottom. All screw hidden and only one additional cut?
When I turned my deck into a screened porch I recycled all of the spindles. They were much longer and angled on the ends where they screwed onto the side of the deck. I recut them and since they were old and weathered I sanded every single one of them until the gray was gone and they looked brand new. I had the same issue with spacing. With a screened in porch you have the roof posts spaced among the spindles. Most of the posts are just 2x4's but in the center and corners you have a 4x4 to carry the weight, so calculating the gap on the sides was the thing. But what was hard was inserting the railing back on between the roof posts. How do you screw them into place? Screwing from an angle through the 4x4 posts is not fun. Splitting the wood sucks. So I came up with an ingenious method. Each railing is held in place with 2 screws and two dowel rods. I would drill a wide hole half way through the 2x4 post on one side, then drill a narrow hole the rest of the way to the other side. This would allow me to counter sink the screw half way through the post and into the railing on one side. Then I would put a dowel rod in the wide end and that would be one of the supports for the rail on the other side. No ugly screws drilled through the posts at angles (except on the corners). And to make things more interesting once the rail and spindles were put in I installed lights in the railing. I took apart a strand of outdoor lights, carefully analyzing how the wires cross over and around each other. The way they wire them up is not what you would expect. Then I drilled small holes into the side of the rail to the center (evenly spaced so there were 3 lights between each roof post), and drilled a wide hole, the size of the socket, from the top of the rail. Then I fished the socket and wires that I cut down through the large hole and through the narrow hole to the front and pushed the socket down so it was mostly recessed. Then I wired all of them back up in the criss cross method I observed and spliced them all back together. Then I cut a channel into a 2x2 and carefully fed the wires into it and screwed that over the rail and over the 4x4 posts hiding the wires. And then I took a bunch of clear colored plastic cups I got at Target, that actually look like colored glass, but since they were plastic I could drill wide holes in the bottom with my drill press, then I put them over the top of the sockets that stick up out of the rail, and then screw the light bulbs in. I put all of them on a dimmer so I can sit outside and enjoy a refreshing beverage while looking at all my colored lights.
You've made this sound way more complicated than it needed to be.
I would've screwed the top and installed a top plate.
THANK YOU! You said it before I did but didn't see yours till after I posted the same thing. hahaha
Great method on the layout. Re:top screws I would have used a 1/4” x 1.5” sub-rail strip and top screwed/glued into that. Then either let that form a 1/4” shadow line on the underside of the cap, or plowed a 1.5” wide dado the length of the cap rail, either full 1/4” depth for a flush look, or maybe 1/8” to leave a 1/8” shadow line. Either way, then you glue and screw UP into the cap rail. You still have a few fasteners to conceal but it’s much less noticeable, and can add a lot of strength if glued/clamped.
The metric system is so much better. Listening to all those conversions left me needing a pint :-)
6:44...I almost died watching you make that hop!
I was with you at 112.25" being divided by 21 which gives a spacing or 5.34". Your first spacing from either post would be 5.34" less 3/4" (half the with of a baluster) and then 5.34" for each baluster center after that. I use divider calipers and walk off the spacing to the next newel. If the spacing is slightly off I make a minor adjustment in the caliper and start from the other end until the spacing is correct. You can also use a calculator and keep adding 5.34" to get the next center.
I use the elastic band truck as seen on " how to build a porch rail,, this old house". There is no measuring ,other than to confirm you're under 4" and it is super fast.
Well done looks GREAT!
Nice work. If you want to screw them in from the side, rather than tonail them in use pocket screws. It is much easier and when you fill the holes, it provides a nice clean look.
As far as the handrail either use dowels and glue or use screw in between pickets and cover screw holes by cutting fillet pieces and pin nail them through the fillet. Hope that helps.
Nice to come across this. Any videos on the other components of this hand rail construction? The attachment of the posts to the base(shoe rail) for example.
What do you do to attach the spindles and newell posts into the subfloor?
You can also use an elastic band, divide the length by the amount of posts and put a mark, then stretch it out over the railing and transfer the marks.
There illusion of perfection...
Dates back to the Parthenon, where the floor isn't level by design to allow outside observers to perceive it as level instead of sagging in the middle.
Also the 4 corner pillars are thicker than the others.
The corners will have the bright sky beside them, which would make them appear thinner.
What I get from the Parthenon is: the builders were so good at building them, they'd obviously built perfect ones before that didn't look right. So they had the experience to know how to fudge geometric perfection to overcome optical illusions.
@@massimookissed1023 or may be they just did it 'by eye' and were not aware whether it's level/flat or not.
Also, often used interchangeably(due to luck of understanding), the correct word would be flat, not necessary level.
Would pocket screws be a good idea to attach top of spindles to handrail instead of regular screws ?
Invest in a FESTOOL DOMINO, worth every penny! Nice Work!!
also dowels and glue is best for setting hand rail. no holes, no nails stronger connection. We will use a piece of flat mdd baseboard or something nice and straight at the base plate clamped parallel to the base plate against the first and last post which will keep all the posts parallel as it dries. if the rail is bowed in the centre you can toe screw the middle spindle top and bottom or you can use a clamp between ceiling and rail to push down over night
Clever. Thanks for sharing. I have a metric measuring tape that I use (only) for laying out spindles.
Here in England the top rail has a rebate all the way along it. So you don't fix the spindles at all. Instead we make spacer pieces and fix from the underside. Great vids mate!
Nice. Exactly how I figured it out on my deck railing spindles 👍
We don't do them like this in the UK, we use a base with groove and you fit fillets of wood in between the uprights. It looks nice job the way you dit it.
You are very good at ciphering. thank you.
Yeah very great way of explaining how to break down the calculations. He knows his stuff.
Good to see the Vancouver Carpenter doing carpentry! Thank you for your channel man!
I was really going to suggest he change the name of the channel to Vancouver Drywaller! Nice job, Ben. That's a nice clean railing.
🙂
I use the diagonal stick method. If my distance between posts is some random awkward measurement, I cut a piece of lumber longer than that and clamp it from post to post diagonally. If I need 18 spindles, then I might cut it at 95 inches and then mark every 5 inches on the diagonal stick. Attach the stick to your posts, and plumb bob down from your pencil marks on the diagonal clamped on stick and voila, done. Very little math and PERFECT RESULTS EACH TIME.
For hiding the nails or screws on the top of the spindles, I often use a nailer strip and go down through there. Then I attach the hand rail by going up through the nailer strip into the hand rail (assuming I'm not using dowels and glue).
Huh? What’s this strange stuff?! You’re showing us “carpentry”?!
Just kidding Ben! Awesome video, as expected.🤘
Keep up the good work.
Scrolled by an add on FB today of your California Patch video. I was like, hey, I recognize that 4 inch blade! ha. It was linked to you and I am sure it is on the up and up and not stolen. Been following you for a year or so and just thought you would like to know.
Thanks for the overview, I learned a couple of tricks I can use and appreciate it.
And you do know that you can buy Imperial measuring tape that has markings in decimal .. right??
That being said, It's not 'easier' in metric if one has the skills and practices. No matter what measuring system is used, one can still end up with an odd fraction depending on the number of spindles one has. Using an 'odd' number of spindles means an even number of spaces which can make the math easier.
The reality is that anything less than 1/8 isn't noticeable by most people, and 1/16th by most of the rest. Adjusting at the ends works. In this case, you could have done one at 3 13/16s and the next and 3 14/16ths (7/8s). Then the adjustments at the end would have been even less.
I find that starting in the middle can be better as one has two ends to make the micro-adjustments. It can require a little more precision at first, but I've done it successfully.
Regardless, thank you for taking the time to make the video. I always learn something new watching your videos.
That is pure nonsense, you're not going to end up with a fraction using the metric system, if you do, you're doing it wrong.
That's the point of the metric system. Meters, centimeters, millimeters, micrometers, nanometers, picometers... so on.
Need more precision, go down the scale.
How did you affix the railing to the floor?
Wait! You’re a carpenter!!?? Haha. I like the video. This is one of those things I forget to do right too often.
13.5/16" is also 27/32" which one can find on an imperial tape measure. This is a great argument for the metric system, and I'm american. Imperial system is cumbersome and archaic.
Very easy to follow Ben ~ I would screw from the top for strength, but it's only my personal preference.
For the top rail, particularly since this will be painted - could you thickness the rail to be ~3/16" oversized then rip it 3/4's up from the bottom. Use the 3/4''s piece to attach it directly into your spindles from the top. Than glue your remaining 1/4" piece to the in place top and plane the sides flush of any variation? Basically, just veenering a top on to hide all the screw heads?
Just what I was wondering. Great idea sir.
👍
I love your videos! I've been told multiple times that nails are usually stronger than screws.
Nails have stronger sheer strength, screws have stronger hold down strength. Not sure the proper term, but screws resist being pulled out. Screws are easier to remove without destroying things, which is rather handy when things don't go as planned.
Good video! How did you attach the newel post to the bottom base board? 4 screws and what was the bolt technique in the center?
8:14 extremely clever! And it’s nice someone knows about the “plus” technique when talking 16th of an inch.
Would it be much easier using metric?
Re drywall job:.i have an upcoming drwall job. It is a 16foot high 2x6 wall. Were should i start the 8 foot sheets at the top or bottom . Thanks john
(Total length + width of one post) devided by number of spaces. That should give you the spacing between each post, except start and end is minus half the width of a post. This only works if all posts are the same size.
I would also predrill top and bottom at the same time, but not all the way through the top. Then make the predrilled holes in the top larger to fit a dowel, and use that to hold the posts. Gluing that is just as strong, if not stronger, than a screw.
I like the simple look of the railing and posts. What was the name of that wood again? Clear Hemlock? Is it expensive? Can you give the dimensions of the lumber used. Thanks
Thanks for the help!
another formula I have used is total distance between post plus the picket thickness divided by 5.5 inches then divide by 21 then you math will turn out right.
I do exactly what you do to get the initial spacing, but then I mark out from center out so that any run-out from marking errors gets eaten up evenly on the extremities where they are less noticeable because the material dimension change.
I would start laying out the short side. First with minimum number of spindles (closest to max 4") and then with one extra. After that I calculate the long side, given the two spaces, to see wich one of theese would be the best match. From there I would either move the post slightly or use the space that is the best match and adjust it.
This way I get the smallest difference on short and long side.
Love your videos Bro, You Rock!! Tip: Download a construction calculator which provides feet and inches. Makes life simple!!
Good stuff.
Like your humor too. :-)
I like the method used by the guys on this old house, grab a stretchy elastic waist band from the fabric store and mark it with 4" increments, then you stretch it out over the length of your workpiece. Much easier than doing math.
Step it off with dividers starting with 5.5" maximum and making adjustments until it comes out evenly... you are marking one side of the spindle. Once set, if needed, work from the other end of the railing to mark the other side of the spindle. This will also tell you how many spindles you need whereas you had to figure that out beforehand. This eliminates the marking creep that can happen when marking in the manner demonstrated, and it also eliminates the rounding errors that come from converting decimals to fractions.
I wonder which end to fudge would be best for perspective distortion.
Depends on where you look at it from, I guess... :-)
Or make a spreadsheet with all the multiples starting from zero, and mark them all with one tape measure - gets rid of any accumulative errors.
I wish I could understand what your talking about as 5 people have liked your comment lol
Did that a week ago! Works!
AND... "Numbers" in Mac OS will break measurements down to 16ths. Not much reason to get more accurate than that.
One more thing... this can be translated to diagonals through rise:run ratios.
Tbh as he said just use.metric and you can it pretty much perfect
Nice one! I have been considering doing something similar. How about the post at the top of the stairs? It is rigid enough? Did you just screw the base board to the floor, with the post glued + bolted to the board from below?
I noticed the newel is not anchored down into structure. How much stronger would it have been if the Newel were secured to floor joists?
Excellent!!!!
Good video - If viewing in the UK the 4" GAP would not be suitable as it comes to almost 102mm metric. You would have to do the same as above but allow for 99mm max gap as Building Control states that "Construction should be such that a 100mm sphere CANNOT pass through any opening in the guarding" - hence 99mm max. (Possibly allow for even tighter spacing if not straight but curved spindles and or newels)
Sweet man greatly appreciated.
Just get an 8 foot piece of elastic band from a fabric store. Then you make 20 evenly spaced marks on the band and then stretch the band to fit the space. The marks will then be evenly spaced.
I think you made the right choice. Screwing side grain into side grain is much stronger than screwing into end grain
Start from each end , then meet in the middle , use millimetres as well , be a lot easier mate put a groove in the underside of the handrail and use glue , and tenon the handrail to the post
Remember if your spindles have a skinny part you have to make them
Spacing is actually supposed to be four inches ON CENTER.
This way, skinny wrought iron spindles and beefy wooden spindles are spaced safely with a space that can't possibly be more than 4 inches
Wes Buckley that makes sure there is not an issue, but so does a 1” gap. The requirement is 4” spacing between. Balusters must be installed close enough that the space between them is no greater than 4 inches. A 4-inch ball might be used by the inspector to verify the spacing. Once installed, I think there is also a requirement for the balusters to hold up under 50 lbs. of pressure exerted over a 1-square-foot area
Perhaps it is just the manufacturer's install instructions on using 4 inch center to center, and not the building code book. One could assume they would be the same, but knowing that the maximum open space is 4 inches could help even out layout and save the cost of one extra spindle.
Great job!