Does the Timeless Child actually affect that much?
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- čas přidán 11. 12. 2020
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So look the Timeless Child got a whole bunch of people, myself included, pretty riled up. But when you actually think about it, does it actually impact the show all the much? Yes, the lore, I know. But the lore is not the show. So let's really figure out what the tangible affect of this thing actually is.
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I still want them to give Paul McGann a season
I agree! I said that in my ranking video of the doctors on my channel! How amazing would it be!!
Pleeeease. Best doctor and arguably the best actor in general(maybe except John hurt and Peter cushing) who has been appointed to the role. His audio and other works prove his capability
#GivePaulMcGannaSeries
You, me, and everybody else who loves the show.
Hell, I'd accept a side-season. That'd work.
He could potentially have a spin off easily. I would love that!
You've got asexual t shirts. Thats the most included and valid I've felt since discovering the subreddit
Happy for you, XD
I know I just ordered one!
"Beautiful, valid, loved" ? Cool concept, but honestly, I´m onyl one of those 3 things anymore in life by now.......
Personally I'm trying to reserve my opinions on the timeless child until I see where they actually take it
This!
Is the best move for now, good choice.
We know damn well they probably won’t do anything with it, like almost every big revelation that happens in Doctor Who lol
In theory, I find this idea pretty interesting. But it took me a while to accept it. I just wanna understand, why the Doctor never knew until now. Like, what happened, that she had to lose all her memories and had to start all over, escaping from Gallifrey as the Hartnell Doctor and become the legend, we know. And what about Listen? THAT child. What incarnation was that ACTUALLY? I mean, it was implied, that that was the Hartnell incarnation as a child, right? But after the Ruth Doctor? Does that mean, the Doctor can regenerate into a child at any point, too? Lots of unanswered questions, but I´m curious to see, which they´re gonna try to answer. It´s cool and all that you wanna do your own thing as a showrunner, but you can´t ignore all too much of what came before, when you´re continuing already existing lore. The classic Rian Johnson mistake.....
@@DevareayWilliams They talked about it in the New Year epsiode so I'm optimistic
The main thing that bothered/confused me was why the exterior of Ruth’s TARDIS was a police box
YES! There is just NO logical reason for her TARDIS to be a police box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think there are many things which don't really work with the timeless child reveal. But the Tardis is one which can easily be explained.
In my head the tardis is the same one. The Doctor chooses the same name and the same Tardis after every mind wipe (call it intuition or fate, I don't care). The chameleon circuit obviously is not defect, the Tardis just waits for a possibility to "get stuck" with the police box - it knows that the doctor likes this appearance.
My biggest problems are 11 and Rivers story lines. For example, River became a time lord while traveling through the time vortex as a fetus. I didn't like this explanation back then and now it's even more stupid.
@Gus Sims I like your take. The only "canon garbage" issue I see with it is that squeezing anymore Doctors in between Hartnell and Smith will mess up the Regeneration count which made Smith the 13th incarnation, and thus needing the granting of more Regenerations from the Time Lords. However, I suppose the Timeless Child would actually fix that issue with the Doctor actually having apparently infinite regenerations, and Smith's Doctor still thinking he has a limited amount, with counting of all of his past incarnations that he can remember adding up to what would make him think he has none left; which would lead the Time Lords to "grant" him "more" regenerations to continue to coverup the Timeless Child conspiracy...
O-O
@@Crowvamp1979 Ruth's Tardis sensed the current Doctors Tardis and changed configuration to match.
@@james4thedoctor482 Having the Jo Martin version of the Doctor as a secret one between Troughton and Pertwee (still my preferred placement) could potentially replace the Metacrisis in the count (i.e. Matt Smith's Doctor only thought he burned a whole Regeneration going from David Tennant to David Tennant) or something untoward happens to the Jo Martin version so the Time Lords add an extra Regeneration to the Doctor's life to cover the existence of the Jo Martin version up. Some have suggested that.
I’m still confused as to how it’s completely altered the show. The Doctor was still an outcast, still someone who ran away to see the Universe and help where they could. There’s no suggestion of how this means, ‘You have to be born special.’ Because the Doctor still wasn’t born into being a renegade Time-Lord, that was all affected by other circumstance, regardless of this.
In addition, people are mad that it reveals the Doctor’s past, but it makes it even more mysterious. Where did she come from? What was that other dimension?
@@landlighterfirestar5550 yeah. Really, instead of being a torch in the light, it just made everything darker. One thing I do like is that it returns a bit more ‘Who?’ to Doctor Who. Which has been slowly lacking since 1969.
For me it's not even that big a retcon, as in deep doctor who lore there have been pre hartnell doctors were part of timelord history, the only thing that was a change/reveal to me was the not galifreyian but that just adds more mystery and was incorporated into the story and doesn't really change anything.
To add on to this, some people have been saying that the retcon makes the Doctor the most important person in the universe. How exactly does it do that? Yes, the Time Lords got the ability to regenerate from the Doctor, but it doesn't make the Doctor the most important person in the universe. The Time Lords aren't who they are because of regeneration, they are who they are because they were the first to master time travel. Even then, the Time Lords aren't as important to the universe as some might think. After all, the Time Lords have been gone for years, and the universe didn't end. The Doctor is also not a god. After all, even if she has unlimited regenerations, there are still ways to circumvent that and kill her. Some people say there are no stakes because of the unlimited regenerations, but then why were there stakes before the retcon? Why were there stakes when the life of the Fourth Doctor was in danger, or the Seventh Doctor, or the Ninth Doctor? They still had regenerations left to use, why was there any tension? With the Twelfth Doctor, we didn't know if he even had a limit anymore, and there was still tension. As for The Time of the Doctor, I had to think on that one. From what I've seen in the past, there's clearly a mental aspect to regeneration happening, like how the Simm Master refused to regenerate and died. The Eleventh Doctor truly believed he couldn't regenerate, so he unconsciously prevented the process from occurring. He was old, tired, and ready to die. All the Time Lords did was a fancy light show, laced with a mental compulsion that coerced the Eleventh Doctor to regenerate. Regardless of whether my speculation about The Time of the Doctor is right or not, I know one thing. The Thirteenth Doctor has one lead that she can follow to get answers. Rassilon is still out there, since the Twelfth Doctor exiled him before the Master's rampage. If anyone can tell the Doctor the truth about the Timeless Child, it's him. Of course, that's assuming he'll be willing to tell her anything.
@@DarkXaven there was never any tension anyway. What, did people really think they would ever kill the Doctor? From a meta-perspective, nothing changes from the Doctor’s unlimited regenerations. Also, I prefer to think of the Timeless Child as the Time-Lords’ victim, not a god.
If we’re going down the prequels/spin-offs route I’d rather have a Paul McGann series than a Ruth series
Completely agree! Said that in my ranking video on my channel that that needs to happen!
On the subject of Ruth, I hope she turns out to be Valeyard which would fit into her being a incarnation of The Doctor that no one remembers
@@maldon3659 oh i never thought about that. That could be a interesting little wrinkle
Yes pleassssee! I’ve been wanting this since Night of the Doctor and since I heard McGann was suppose to get a real series in the 90s after the movie if it did well (it didn’t). I hope they do it soon before he looks too old for it!
Why was the secret so shocking, so upsetting to the Master that he felt a need to wipe all the Timelords out? The secret of the Timeless child seems to be a big whoop! We already knew the Timelords were hypocrites. Most Timelords had no idea, didnt even know a Timeless child once existed. So why did it make the Master mental... more so than he already was?
I think I was more upset by killing off the Timelords again. After all that emotional investment on their being dead and then saved and brought back, feh! Reminds me of Alien 2 where we had an entire movie where the audience is tied up in the survival of a little girl, then you kill her off screen in the first two minutes of of the next sequel. Feh, feh!
I agree, the destruction of the Gallifreyans cuts off so many potential story lines. I know that they were present in "classic Who" but these would be post time war and potentially, very different as a people, having gone through what they went through and been saved by a "Renegade" they could have developed very different attitudes to interference in the universe compared to before as an example
@ten Mark - IIRC, the Master said he was enraged enough to destroy Gallifrey because the Doctor being the Timeless Child meant that everything that made the Master who he was came ultimately from her, and he couldn't stand that.
@@heather1485 The other thing to consider as well is that The Master is genuinely a person who enjoys sowing chaos and destruction-- and who has suffered a lot (from their perspective) at the hands of the Timelords. Given the Timelords had come back, what's to say that the Master, having heard at least some of the Doctor's story of having killed all the Timelords out of necessity (again, perspective), wouldn't have taken it as a challenge to see if they could do it better?
We also get the stories of the Timelords' destruction and the Timeless Child straight from the mouth of the Master, which is a significance that a LOT of people are constantly missing. The Master is the perfect example of an unreliable narrator- and they're narrating some very important information that they have had ample time to manipulate just for the chance to strike at the Doctor's hearts. This allows the arc of the Timeless Child to be taken in so, so many directions. A higher calling? A fakeout? An origin story that ultimately changes little, but acts as a rexamination, and ultimate fortification of the Doctor's philosophy?
Again- The Master is a force of chaos, destruction, and doubt. And using them to convey this story, knowing what they've done in the past and how they are so closely linked to The Doctor, is an honest stroke of narrative genius.
7:24 On a random note: Part of me wants to see an announcement for one of McGann's audios getting a direct adaption for a one off special... maybe Chimes of Midnight as a Christmas Special.
I feel this is similar to the destruction Vs saving of Gallifrey in Time of the Doctor. Knowing that Gallifrey was saved, doesn't undermine the feelings of the 11th, because he didn't remember. Same for the doctors not remembering the timeless child.
It would be easy enough to retcon as being either the pre-Hartnell Doctors being ‘the Other’, or the whole thing being the Master messing with the Doctor’s head
Scripts seem to maybe hint tekteun (however it’s spelt) may be the other
Here’s the interesting thing I think they can utilize going forward:
We know that not only are the Gallifreyans still out there (the Division) from another time, but TIME LORDS still do, in fact the very Time Lords responsible for all this.
Remember Hell Bent- the Doctor exiled Rassilon and the high council from the planet.
This allows for emotional and plot beats later regarding this twist. I think besides the Doctor itself, one big sticking point for fans is that it de-mystifies the Gallifreyans, to the point of giving them a different species origin name (although apparently used in the show); and I think that’s ok, and the point, but I can see why that could be upsetting to old fans.
Still- I think it evolves the mystery of who the Doctor is, WHO the Slobogans were as a species, how the Doctor fits in with them as a victim of their elite and progenitor of their powers but still a proud resident of their world.
The Timeless Child is a pointless retcon that will eventually be ignored just like that "half human on my mother's side" nonsense from the Eighth Doctor TV movie.
Black phoenix I completely agree, im so glad it will disappear eventually
Don’t be too sure, that was just a few throwaway lines, this had an entire episode dedicated to the idea
The only thing retcon to emerge from The Timeless Children is the word mother in that 1996 8th Doctor line while he was in a manic post regenertive state, he got the gender wrong. And what's The Doctor say about gender?
?
DOCTOR: Yeah, I think she was a man back then. I'm fairly sure that I was, too. It was a long time ago, though.
BILL: So, the Time Lords, bit flexible on the whole man-woman thing, then, yeah?
DOCTOR: We're the most civilised civilisation in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes
And that's why it's the worst twist this show has ever done and that's saying a lot
@AwesomeAlex500 A key point of the Brain of Morbius was this potential of the Doctor having more previous incarnations. And that wasn’t brought up again until this so if people in high places did want it being dismissed it wouldn’t be too hard to undo
The only way I can see this being a thing beyond Whittaker's Doctor (and for my part, I thought it was pretty interesting as a concept), would be as a way to have more Doctors for an anniversary special.
Also, speaking of anniversary specials, can we get McGann in a proper one? I loved Night of the Doctor, but having him in the 50th itself would have been so cool!
Stumbled across your channel and I’m totally addicted to your videos. Your views are well thought out to the point. For someone like me who’s not a hard core who fan but just enjoys the show for what it is I have to say I find your views me videos fascinating.
Personally I really hope this Timeless Child stuff is just a nasty misdirection from The Master...
Or the matrix itself. I'd prefer it to be no one we know, that the timeless child is some forlorned innocent beset upon by the Time Lords, still alive, injured, thinking its weak and alone. With the Master and the Doctor racing to find it, one with the hopes of using it to finish their crusade against Gallifrey's sins destroying the universe the Time Lords so doggedly protected and the Doctor to find it to help it find its home and family and try and find closure and forgiveness for the Time Lord's sins, possibly sacrificing herself to send the child home to its family....(and yes if that means the child then absolving the Time Lords and resurrecting them from the Master's genocide....fine if not...also fine...).
I am still not a big fan of the "Timeless Child" twist since I feel it retcons too much of the series' continuity and the Doctor as a character. If they had just gone the route of The Doctor lived an entire regeneration cycle that they chose to forget about (like how Capaldi forgot Clara) I think that would have worked fine, but I feel the route they went goes against too much of the established Time Lord lore/history of Gallifrey. Plus, before this twist The Doctor was just an average Time Lord who was interested in Earth/loved exploring the universe while the rest of the Time Lords looked down on other forms of life and chose to isolate themselves, but if Time Lord society as we know it only exists because of The Timeless Child then The Doctor would have been more respected and been aware of their significance. So, I blame this idea solely on Chibnall since I feel this twist wouldn't have worked regardless of who was The Doctor, but I do like Whitaker as The Doctor.
YES YES 👍
I still don't feel like the Doctor is special, after all we don't know where they came from (what is on the other side of the wormhole thingy) its possible there is a whole species where infinite regenerations are the norm and therefore the Timeless Child isn't inherently special, they just happened to be discovered by someone who thinks they're unique in the whole universe.
Why did the Time Lords have to restart the Matt Smith Doctor's regenerative cycle if he was capable of regenerating himself anyway? Chibnall's proposal dosen't fit with established (recent!) facts about the Doctor's life span, poor writing.
@@garytwinem5275 Because the Time Lords could have easily removed the Child's infinite regenerations, this is the point where I wanna get to, the cannon on this show is so flexible that I hardly doubt this reveal could contradict anything in an impactful manner.
@@tiekogalaxylatte8839 That's true about Doctor Who's canon, every producer or showrunner has their own additions or subtractions to it. All this might never be mentioned by the next person at the helm for all we know.
I hope they resolve
the Timeless Child thing before Jodie leaves. I honestly really liked Series 12 except for that twist
Personally I think of the Timeless Child reveal as the start of Season 13 more than the end of Season 12. I think that's what's throwing a lot of people off. The reveal seems pointless because it's the start of an arc as much as the end of one.
@@irrevenant8724 yeah I hope so. It’s one of the reasons I’m really looking forward to Series 13
This topic, now that you've reminded me about what was...and wasn't...done with Paul McGann's Eight Doctor, reminds me of something I've long felt. With the dearest admiration and due respect to John Hurt, I believe the entire concept of The War Doctor was wrong. When you think about it, that entire addition to The Doctor's history was really a miniature version of a Timeless Child situation with the same major downside...an unnecessary re-contextualization of The Doctor's whole character.
When New Who first started we got to see, in both the Eccleston and Tenet incarnations, a Doctor very haunted and embittered by the then mysterious events of the the Time War...and especially his role in it ("I watched it happen...I MADE it happen!"). For years, I assumed, with good reason, that it was McGann's eight doctor that had fought in this Time War, and that he...a doctor we *knew* ...had committed some manor of atrocities. I'd always hoped to see stories one day that would expand upon his role in that conflict. But then, out of the blue, we're introduced to incarnation of The Doctor we never met or even heard of before. Until The War Doctor was revealed on-screen, there was *never* any indication to the audience that any version of The Doctor, other than the Eight, could possibly have fought in this Time War. I always felt that this revelation was a bit of a cop-out; a way for The Doctor to ultimately not really be responsible for his actions; not as long as this "alternate" version of him, created only for that purpose, had really done it.
What's interesting is that The War Doctor (owing largely to Hurt's brilliant portrayal), has become relatively well integrated into The Doctor's canon despite, just like The Timeless Child, being effectively a major retcon; albeit one that The Doctor himself knew about but never mentioned. This is why I agree that, handled correctly, The Timeless Child can be well integrated...or even just as relegated to history as the War Doctor now is...going forward.
I do like the timeless child because before the doctor's childhood was shown on screen, I never really imagined that the first doctor was the first. Now going back watching the first doctor, I don't really like him as the doctor, and I think it feeds more into the doctor's evolution into THE doctor that we know and love today. My theory that isn't really a thing is that they kept resetting the doctor's memory because they kept becoming the doctor and being a nuisance, showing that the doctor is basically destined to be a nuisance to anyone that gets on their bad side.
Also let's not forget - this isn't it. Chibnall said he had a 5 year plan and we're coming up on 3 years into that plan. We've gotta see what happens before we pass full judgement.
An episode on Hartnell's life leading up to 1963 would be an awesome prequelesque idea.
It's the worst kind of relevation - _a meta one._
Characters don't care, because why should they? It changes nothing. It only impacts the audience, creating a disconnect between us and our protagonists. Really poor drama work, very amateur.
Like The Principle and the Pauper from the Simpsons
The characters sure looked like they cared.
@@arubinojr5670 - ...even though Ruth literally said it doesn't change anything, which 13 agreed with?? To the point where she didn't even bother telling her companions???
@@nightowl8477 She didn't have time to tell them since she left to sacrifice herself a few minutes after taking them to a TARDIS, anyway she didn't even tell them about Gallifrey's destruction and it took them a long time to know her species and her planet so it's not really her kind to tell her companions about herself.
@@jujublue4426 - tell me how this twist has impacted anyone other than the Master. No one cares. No one _should_ care, it's a boring twist designed go annoy fans and get a couple headlines, nothing more.
Fans of the timeless child twist represent! :D
Hello there!
I loved it. It was really clever.
I liked the video, and I agree with most of your points, that in-universe the impact might not be massive. I haven't really explored classic Who, so the idea that there were multiple regenerations pre-Hartnell wasn't much of an issue for me. The reasons I dislike it are mostly because it feels a bit like the stakes are not as high anymore. I mean, I don't know if the doctor has unlimited regenerations now, I don't think it has been explicitly shown, but it does seem to look that way. It just removes many personal stakes. Like when 10 sacrificed his life to save Wilf despite being terrified of dying because he knew it would be his last life, you can't have moments like that anymore. If the Doctor has infinite regenerations, it becomes a tool to use, more than a last resort, something to fear. I mean, it has been established that, if Time Lords are killed mid-regeneration, they die for good, but would that also go for the Timeless Child?
That is my main reason for disliking the concept of the Timeless Child, other than making the Doctor again the most important person in the universe, but since I only have seen NuWho, I'm used to that.
Overall, I think the Timeless Child is a can of worms that should have been left unopened. Or if they had done it, it should not have been the Doctor. If it hadn't been the Doctor, but just some creature the Time Lords found and stole their power from, it could have raised some interesting ethical quandaries on if the Doctor has any rights to use this "stolen power". But now, it all just feels like a big reveal just for the sake of having a big reveal, an earth-shattering revelation about the Doctor.
That is my opinion for now. Maybe if they handle it properly, and establish lasting consequences, I'll be more okay with it. We'll see what the future brings.
I'd have much preferred the timeless child to be that than the doctor, but I'm not too bothered by it
I don't think it was stated that the Timeless Child had infinite regenerations in the first place, and Tecteun would limit the number of regenerations to twelve. Given that it was the Timeless Child's genes that were responsible for regeneration - in Shobogans/Time Lords _as well as the Timeless Child itself_ - i don't see why the Timeless Child/Doctor couldn't have had his/her regenerations limited by the same (genetic) mechanism.
Doesn't explain River Song though. 11th Doctor established Regeneration came about through years of Time Vortex contamination
Yeah, but that already didn't make sense before either.
That's an idea that was first introduced in 2011. It's hardly the most important and foundational bit of Time Lord lore in the history of the show.
Thank you SOOOO much for making this video. Seriously. I've been thinking this very same thing for a long time but I've not been able to articulate it properly. 🤘🏻
When you first touched on "how it was implemented," my brain immediately went to, "Ah yes, revelation by Sacha Dhawan telling us a bedtime story. Honestly one of the better ways to implement things." Don't mind me, I have a one-track mind. ^^; Though now I'm actually thinking about how it would be cool to have a companion from another dimension...
The Sacha Master would make a great companion!
themasterdoctorwho.blogspot.com/
I think its disingenuous to say the High Council was recontextualised, they evolved and changed with events in the story.
There’s a specific part of the timeless child twist that I dislike: The doctor is having an identity, one she does not accept as her own, forced upon her. I doubt that was the intent, but especially given how the doctor rejects that identity in Timeless Children, it seems like a twist that is in poor taste.
Also, i think many of us are moving into the ‘Bargaining’ stage of the timeless child twist, before we move on to depression and acceptance.
I still think there's a twist left to come. The Master actually is a much better fit for being the original TimeLord template. It would explain why he is so messed up - being subjected to those experiments as a child. It also makes more sense that he is the 'Master' copy. The Doctor has been set up to be the Timeless child because it's better than letting the Master know the truth, which would make him even more egomaniacal than he already is. And she might carry on playing the role for that very reason, even leaving the audience in the dark until the reveal.
@@romasteve7292 I still am not too fond of that because I think the Doctor and The Master's relationship is much more interesting when they're two equals who went the opposite way. Anything else runs the risk of making the Master valid in their thinking in some way shape or form and I much prefer it being that there's no rhyme or reason to the Master's mania. The Master just is, y'know?
I’m only going to be at acceptance if they recton it; not gunna lie. It can’t be fixed with out one.
@@The3rdjp1995
But they have never been equals. The Master always loses.
@@Carabas72 That does not mean they're not equals. The Doctor always beats the Master but they have always been on the same level. Not anymore
I was thinking about this recently too. I think the main thing that I dislike about the Timeless Child isn't what it does to the lore directly. It's what it does thematically. I don't like the Doctor being the Chosen One. I far prefer the idea that they were just a regular Time Lord who decided that they couldn't stand by and watch the injustices in the universe.
So maybe "The Woman" from *The End of Time* is actually Tecteun?
Possibly. I still choose to believe the woman is Romana.
Nah, Tectuen's the multiple child murderer.
If they decide to explore pre-Hartnell Doctors I don't think that would actually be 'looking backwards' in the standard sense. Partly because they're essentially independent characters - nothing they do constrains current incarnations of the Doctor (although it would be a cool way to introduce new threats). And partly because they're time travellers so almost any story you could do with current or future incarnations of the Doctor you could also do with *past* incarnations of the Doctor. Because the pre-Hartnell Doctors are so separate, you could do stories about them in a way that is standalone rather than foundational to the current show.
One idea I had:
Due to the doctor's new nature no longer having limited regenerations, you could have a series of self-contained one-shots about different versions of them, in the extreme but vague future or past, and be vague enough with the specifics that you could retcon them into whatever order you wanted later on as needed.
Aside from the earlier incarnations hinted at in BRAIN OF MORBIUS, there WAS some hinted-at earlier life (ostensibly pre-Hartnel) mentioned and hinted at in DOCTOR #7 stories like REMEMBRANCE OF THE DALEKS, SILVER NEMESIS and CURSE OF FENRIC (although those were more or less to hint that the Doctor was either THE OTHER or, in fact... godlike).
But 4 didn't have those memories and probably didn't recognize the faces, and 7 was more likely to delve into the deeper mysteries, but those memories were lost when he regenerated into 8 and frequently lost his memories.
Honestly, how intriguing it would have been if the Timeless Child was actually the Doctor’s mother or father. Then it could’ve still been a personal journey for the Doctor and Master without all the frustration brought on by the change in the Doctor’s personal backstory. And rewatching it’s quite apparent that they left it open ended enough to backtrack it if they wanted to. I’m not convinced that this season we won’t find out that the Master is actually the timeless child and he projected the persona onto the Doctor because subconsciously he couldn’t bring himself to face it.
It only breaks canon if Ruth is the child too. That’s heavily implied but not guaranteed. Also, I guess the Doctor just has a restricted regeneration, the Time Lords are horrible people and could do limit it with some inhuman technology I’m sure
Well, where do we slot Ruth? You know Season 6B? It’s pretty much offical now. Troughton was working for the Time Lords after the War Games. I propose that during one job, Troughton was killed and regenerated into Jo Martin. When the Time Lords didn’t need her anymore, they wiped her kind of her and the end of Troughton. They reversed the regeneration back to Troughton and gave him another regeneration so he wouldnt realise something was up. They then forced the regeneration and he became Pertwee.
I've always said it's not that big of a deal and it's nice to see people actually consider it
I think that's what makes it such a strange decision, they spent an entire episode establishing something, but they designed it to have as little impact on the actual show as possible.
I think as we go on and they maybe explain more about the concept, we'll be more like "Oh, I understand why they felt the need to establish that"
What I'm super excited for is the potential for EU stuff or a Ruth season.
Actually, yeah, now that you say this, none of what I’ve ever thought about the Timeless Child has been about ‘where will this lead from here’, ‘what new impact will it go on to have’ etc. I’ve only ever thought of its subsequent referrals in terms of how they might clean up the existing execution (e.g. why Ruth’s TARDIS was a police box). That’s the only ‘necessity’ I’ve thought of it as spawning plot-wise. I’m kind of neutral on the concept overall by this point otherwise
I do like the Timeless Child but I think the only thing it could affect is the Master, Fugitive Doctor or whenever the Time Lords returns
I think this is exactly the problem I have with it - it most likely won't impact anything going forward, so we've got an arc here that's caused a massive amount of controversy and drama between fans, and for what? I think they should have either gone all out with it to make the controversy at least be worth it, or just done something else. I also think that because of how divisive this era was already, it really wasn't the best time to do something like this. It would have been controversial regardless of the era it happened in, but because we're at a stage where certain fans exist to hate, there's a severe lack of genuine criticism, very few people are thinking straight. Had it happened in, say Tom Baker or David Tennant's eras for example, I think people would be a lot more lenient with it. My main concern now is that it's going to dominate Whittaker's era and not give her chance to explore different arcs, just leaving her with one that ultimately affects nothing.
I think this position reflects how it was addressed in the episode itself when she faced Dr Ruth who asked her if it affects who she is now.
I doubt we're going to get a full tv series with jo martin's doctor, but I could totally see Big Finish doing something with her
You’re definitely not alone in feeling this way. I’ve thought pretty much the same having thought about it since the end of series 12. That said, I’d be surprised if subsequent episodes - not necessarily in series 13 - didn’t delve into the backstory of ‘The Division’, which they spent a great deal of time setting up. However the Timeless Child thing might just fade away into the background ultimately. Or not, dependent what they’ve already planned for it. I’m pretty sure we aren’t done with it, but ultimately it might not make that much difference long term. As for ‘destroying canon’, well it’s just another hole/bump/dead end in the long term history of the show’s canon not exactly neatly stacking up.
Another great intelligent video. I agree, it really makes no real difference. After seeing the NY special, I'm convinced now the whole Timeless Child thing was to serve a number of purposes: NuWho had become a bit obsessed with Gaillfrey, revisiting the time war, Gallifrey disappearing and reappearing and being destroyed, and the over complicated rules about timelords and regenerations. The Timeless Child now allows the show to move on without having to come back to Gallifrey and Timelord stories again - and to make it clear, the Doctor is now no longer a Gallifrean. The episode also brings some finality (again!) to the Master. It also deliberately leaves questions unanswered - where does the Master fit relative to Missy? Where does Ruth fit in if she's already got the police box tardis? Is what the Master said even true? What did the Division do? Rather than the TImeless Child explaining who the doctor is, the episode is really a way of saying "there will always be things about the doctor that cannot be explained", with even the Doctor saying in the NY special that now she is even less sure who she really is. The whole thing is effectively a reset so that the future adventures of the doctor can be pretty much anything. It was clear in the NY special that they have no intention of answering any questions - what was the crime for which the Judoon were pursuing Ruth and ultimately captured 13? Answer: I'll tell you later ;)
The doctors history and identity was cobbled together over years, when they had to replace Hartnell they came up with regeneration (or rejuvenation as originally the second doctor was just supposed to be a younger version of the first), they came up with Gallifrey and Time Lords for his backstory. They came up with the regeneration limit to get the master in trouble. I mean they randomly made Susan the doctor's granddaughter because the BBC thought and old guy travelling with a young girl was creepy, they were not related in the original script.
Chibnall just added even more to an ever changing history, I honestly don't care because Chibnall is doing the same thing as all the other showrunners did before him, make shit up as it pleases him. If the writers in the 60s had respected canon as much as fans of today demand the doctor simply would habe died in the tenth planet with the series either ending or Ben and Polly taking over the Tardis and eventually picking up a new character. For all we know "Doctor" would have become the title of the group's leader had the show continued.
There's a big difference between adding to what's already established, without changing the past, and adding something that alters major, long established points.
As any showrunner has done they have added their own slant on the doctor and so the timeless child is Chibnals.Time will tell whether it is a good or bad idea,so personally I would just like to find out because Chibnal will either be called a genius or forever be named as the destroyer of dr who
This is how I feel about it: it doesn’t change anything, and it is not done yet. I will only judge the end result. If it doesn’t work, Ill just ignore it. For now Ill theorize/discuss/enjoy it.
Doctor Who has a very convoluted canon already, and that is ok. Change is part of what made the show survive for so many decades. I think it is brave that they are taking risks.
And... i am not crazy about a series about a past doctor, but I would definitively buy some comic books on them.
I’m waiting to see what they do with it cause to me at this point it feels like the master manipulating the matrix again to lie to the doctor for the sole purpose of emotionally braking her as he did in fact state in the episode so it could be season 23 of the classic era all over again where the master manipulated the matrix to get the doctor put on trial for things he actually didn’t do and the doctor did mention files the the master didn’t open and and they got excused away as he couldn’t gain access to them and we never heard about them again
Honestly, never trust anything the villain says. The master could've altered the matrix and even his own memory if he was the timeless child. The missing files could have been what the master couldn't reasonably alter.
I agree with what you've said; the re-jigging of the 'lore' about Hartnell being 'the first Doctor' was never an issue for me either. Of course that version of the Doctor could've forgotten about any lives before then, for any number of reasons that would easily slot into the existing lore. No, the thing that I hated about it was the change in dynamic that The Timeless Child introduced. Prior to this, the Doctor was someone you rooted for because he was the chaotic good maverick of his species and their society; the one whose 'flaw' was his ability to empathise with others, which was what made all his fellow Gallifreyans see him as 'problematic' to them. In short, it was his 'human' quality that we as the audience could identify with.
But the Timeless Child turned our 'flawed' and 'human' Doctor into The Chosen One; the Origin of Species blueprint from which all of those super-powered Gallifreyans were descended. He/she is basically the God of Gallifrey now. And all that does is lead us down a rabbit-hole of further questions that not only will probably never get answered, but if they ARE answered, would probably just make things worse. I mean, this Timeless Child must have had parents to be born, right? (And those parents would had to have parents, and so on...) So now we have this ancient, as-yet undiscovered species of super-beings even more powerful than the Time Lords, somewhere out there, who, for all this time, have just been... hiding from the universe, staying under the radar for millennia, because... reasons?
After rewatching Rememberance Of The Daleks, Rings of Ahkatan, thinking about how flimsy the doctors past always is...since it's always so vague...
I now have a weird hot take after rewatching Hell Bent in isolation.
(Please pin this comment if you don't want to read this till after you rewatch it yourself)
...
It's act three that is purely the problem. The first two thirds are actually pretty decent. Clara's over-idolisation aside, there's an emotional core of the doctor wanting to confront Rassilon for the time war, and then see Clara once more because he can. But you can see him on edge the entire time, he's clearly not coping. His every move seems angry, lost or desperate.
But then Me shows up completely out of random, right when Capaldi and Clara are about to take off (which feels like the true inciting incident of the thing) and after 5 minutes of talking with Me, he just changes his mind. This is where it falls down, because all the hybrid stuff is fine in concept, the doctor often says he has secrets no one should know, so if anything, a prophecy about the destruction of gallifrey At His Own Hand makes sense, but actually the explaination of he and Clara is so quick and out of the blue (and begs the question why he ever thought/knew it was him alone then, does that confirm the doctor still thinks he's half human then?) and as an extention to Me's theory proving the doctor was going too far ... feels plainly clear Without the plot point - in fact her role is purely there to call him out on something that the doctor knows but is too desperate to listen to anyone close to the situation... And since he changes his mind after that and he only just got Clara back, it suddenly feels like the "prophecy" that all gallifreyans fear and the doctor ran away for ... was just a 5 minute mistake. Clara's role in the doctors life is overplayed, sure, but as a doctor to companion, with the line "I have a duty of care" and the fact he can't look at her, its perfectly understandable and heartbreaking that he lost ANOTHER companion and just can't take it. Her reaction when she realises how tortured he was in the confession dial; He's so frantic around Clara, he's having a breakdown. I think he actually goes through the '5 stages of grief' as he goes from Denial (lying to the guard), to Bargaining (escaping with Clara), to Anger ('dont you trust me?" "not when you're shouting", to Depression "at the end of everything, you can always expect immortals" and he sounds tired, to Acceptance "one of us is going to forget". But it's how anti-climatic he goes so far only to let go so fast, and then there isn't really a conclusion to so-called "going too far". There's no payoff to Capaldi's actions here, despite how emotionally charged they were. Sure he forgets her, but it kind of plays like he's being absolved of the guilt, but not truly accepting the result he kept trying to undo. And despite the risks he took, there's no negative Direct consequence for those either. He leaves gallifrey, so no idea what that means for the timelords he attacked. Clara dies "the long way around", so he got out of officially accepting that she was dead.
I think my point though, was that it's made me realise that even when doctor who is at its most confusing, the emotionally good stuff rises out of the ashes and the bad just falls into a long line of charming messiness. Maybe it'll still frustrate you to no end, because this time around I haven't had to watch Clara get resurrected over and over so i can treat it less as an annoying repetition, but it's clear that things bother me far more when they're the most recent era, because if unchecked it marks the potential for the show to continue that way and potentially get cancelled, but once a run is over ... its much easier to appreciate the bits in between and move past it by just streaming the next bit. It certainly also makes a difference the I feel the hiatus's more when waiting a week for each episode, so more room for speculation and disappointment, whereas I saw the first 7 seasons online so even if i didn't like something or didn't understand something, i could just keep moving forward. Whatever's newest tends to bother me more cause that's whats currently representing the overall legacy of the show, but once its just a part of that bubble ... i suddenly feel reminded of Smith saying "never try to tell me the rules" (which i hated at the time but now its charming).
But yeah, in isolation, Hell Bent, overall ... actually overall it feels surprisingly SHORT and rushed...but i didn't hate it nearly as much...
Love your Doctor Who reviews. Would you be interested in doing a collaboration ?
Always open to at least talking about it. Hit up my email councilofgeeks@gmail.com
It was a similar situation with McCoy's Doctor, we were told he had an incredible secret about who The Doctor was but since it didn't impact on the actual stories it was pretty pointless.
Since the finale episode was called The Timeless Children (plural), might future episodes reveal that BOTH the Doctor and the Master are the Timeless Children (not just the Doctor)? ... OR, might Chibnall create a backstory in which the Doctor and the Master were once the same person (the Timeless Child), who was split into separate beings, two halves of the same coin? Man, would that make all the fanboys and fangirls freak out!
i feel like it's a set-up for the 60th tbh, because looking back at the 50th RTD had, inadvertently or otherwise, set up a long-standing arc with the time war which was later resolved (or at least addressed as a main focal point) in the 50th anniversary and after that there wasn't really a major over arching event that could be advertised at a key momnent such as an anniversary special. that's my take on it anyway
Considering the recent interview with Chibnall who said the creation of Ruth!Doctor was essentially a whim invented during a story discussion with Patel for FotJ, I think it’s fairly safe to assume that Ruth!Doctor isn’t going to have a huge role in the series, at least while Chibnall is in charge. I think you’re right on that it’s only going to impact this specific Master and this specific Doctor.
To me, the scene where the Doctor escapes from the matrix pretty much suggests that whatever direction the Timeless child goes.... it will not impact on the previous incarnations of the Doctor. Whitaker’s Doctor was overloading it with what she remembered as certainties in her other previous forms beginning with Hartnell. How much it impacts on future incarnations will depend solely on the show-runner at the time. If they don’t like it, the rimless child will fade off like the Brain of Morbius did to an extent. At this moment in time I don’t like the idea of the Timeless child but I open to changing my mind if series 13 can explain it properly with a sound reason. And that would involve either Rassilon and/or Omega for sure
The only thing that confuses me as that in matts last episode the doctor is given more regenerations. But if the doctors the timeless child the regenerations were limitless. That’s a little continuity thing
Maybe our universe's Gallifrey is an alternative universe and The Other (The Doctor) had to escape their universes Gallifrey. Maybe Rassilon is from that other universe and came to our universe to take over a new Gallifrey. Maybe that other universe is actually where Iris Wildthyme is from as she has no record in the Matrix but does infact regenerate.
So many problems with the Timeless child - the loss of jeopardy in so many previous adventures, the issue with the Doctor being famous to her enemies yet never having found out about the other Timelords that travelled in a police box, the fact that she's been promoted to a god (literally a Deus Ex..), the rug being pulled out from under her as a cosmic hobo - the very reason why she is travelling, the massive dangling unsolved mystery of her origin, the body horror of being endlessly experimented on... there's a long list.
But the biggest problem is that the writers have signalled that they are willing to ignore pretty much any of the precepts of the show if they think it will make a story. Moffat was perilously close to the line with elevating the Doctor to "godlike" status, but now we've had confirmed that there are no restrictions or limitations to the Doctor's ability if it suits the writer of the week to say so. Why should we engage if there is no risk, no rhyme, no reason and no respect to the plots?
The BBC and Chibnall have engaged in bargain basement writing, treating the character of the Doctor as a plot device that can just be thrown at any subject to act the way that suits whoever writes the story that day. She has no character, no backstory, no ideals that can't be switched on a whim. It undermines any message they wish to get across, and frankly, it's just terrible storytelling.
I'm kinda not one who was upset by the timeless child subplot, I've had the headcanon that Hartnell wasn't the first doctor since auldwho.
The only thing that took me a while to work out was why the tardis was in the shape of a phonebox in the jo-doctor era, and then it hit me, the TARDIS was old when Hartnell "stole" her. What if the malfunctioning chameleon circuit was the TARDIS choosing to appear like that because of old adventures in the pre-hartnell days
Idk, I just never saw the reason for any dislike of the timeless child, but then, I always loved the idea of the doctor being "the other one" of the three great timelords from back in the day
The TARDIS appears like a police box because of when it first landed on Earth in The Unearthly Child. That's when the chameleon circuit got stuck and that is well established.
For the TARDIS to be choosing that form, from it's pre-Hartnell days, it means the pre-Hartnell Doctors would've used that very same TARDIS and been to Earth. It also means that Idris never 'stole' the Doctor so that she could travel the universe and the Doctor never 'stole' the TARDIS as it was already theirs (sort of).
I see what you're getting at but it doesn't fit with what is already established IMO.
@@lwaves My theory is that the TARDIS was returned to the common pool when the Doctor turned into infant Hartnell and that's *why* she recognised and 'stole' him - as well as being why the Doctor was drawn to that specific TARDIS. They already had a connection.
If the TARDIS used to be a police box she could very easily have taken the Doctor to Earth and 'broken' her chameleon circuit just so she had an excuse to wear her favourite form. (Also because she knew Earth would be good for him).
IMO it all works, but personally I'm now leaning more towards the 6B theory for Ruth. Time will tell...
@@irrevenant8724 Yeah, I figured you were getting at something along those lines and it's certainly a potential solution. It's just so much assumption for me, more than many other theories I've seen and it undoes far too much of the long established lore.
The real question is though, what is Chibbers capable of thinking of? He hasn't had the best track record with DW (or Torchwood), so will he land it or crash and burn? Who knows eh, who knows?
I know which theory I want it to be (TC is really the Master) but I have no idea which way the show will go.
@@lwaves The Timeless Child reveal dropped literally *one* episode ago, and it came with a lot of hanging questions. So yeah, at the moment we're left with speculation. But that's always the way. At this point all we know for sure is that it *can* be explained not how it will be.
In terms of Chibnall's ability to deliver, I suspect he *does* have this planned out. He teased it as far back as "The Ghost Monument". Where he tends to keep dropping the ball is execution. At the end of season 11 I would've said he had zero chance of pulling it off. Now, after a few pretty great stories I don't know.
It all depends on which Chibnall shows up to Season 13. If we get the guy who brought us "The Haunting of Villa Diodati", "Spyfall Pt 1" and "Fugitive of the Judoon" we're in decent hands. If we get the guy who brought us "Arachnids in the UK" and "The Tsuranga Conundrum" we're in a lot of trouble...
@@irrevenant8724 You just said what I was trying to get. :-)
Yes, his execution is a big part of it but if the plan is weak, the execution doesn't matter as much. Although, if he is a little bit clever (and sneaky), he could have put out everything we know, then wait to see how the fandom reacts before picking a popular fan theory which fits his overall plan. He's had plenty of time to do that, even without allowing for the pandemic.
That might be reaching a bit but hey, why not? Hahaha.
Personally, I hope Broadchurch Season 1 Chibnall is the one who turns up. That's his best work IMO. :-)
The timeless child, at least in the revival, makes no sense for Matt smith’s regeneration as well as how river was able to regenerate just to name a couple of examples. And if they made a Paul McGann series it would be during the break of the doctor who series in order to keep interest in doctor who throughout the year, the same way they did with torchwood and SJA
River being able to regenerate still makes sense. The Time Lords used a combination of genetic manipulation and exposure to the Time Vortex to make themselves more like the Timeless Child, giving them the ability to regenerate. Then the Silence used a combination of genetic manipulation and exposure to the Time Vortex to make baby Melody more like a Time Lord, giving her the ability to regenerate. Just because the Time Lords weren't the _original creators_ of Regeneration, doesn't mean the Silence can't copy their work to produce similar results.
@@Alfwin it just feels like they’re adding extra information to correct what they’d done, in the original episode it was the doctors fault that river could regenerate due to taking any and Rory away on their wedding night where they conceived river. The explanation used was exposure to the time vortex. This adds pressure to the doctor and is the whole reason him and Amy fall out. If the silence were to blame for everything then that tension and fault is now void. The silence took advantage of river, and turned her into a weapon to kill the doctor. They’re not the reason she can regenerate
@@mattwynn7516 Not sure what you mean by "the original episode." In _A Good Man Goes To War,_ it's explicitly stated it was the Silence who gave Melody the ability to regenerate, and her exposure to the Time Vortex merely gave them a head start. IIRC, the specific dialogue was:
"You can't just cook yourself a Time Lord!"
"Maybe not, but you gave them one hell of a head start, and they've been hard at work on it ever since."
I don't know how involved BBC is in Victorious, bu ta good chunk of it is 8th heavy. Also.....the odds of the Master just being a much Younger Doctor, with a mind wipe and sent back into Gallifrey's own timeline shot up. It explains why the Master can also be in the same relative timespace twice, which was previously a Doctor Exclusive thing.
Personally i think if they do anything with pre hartnell doctors it will be done in expanded media like big finish
This was helpful thanks. I was also annoyed and angry about it, but I guess now it's just a matter of waiting to see if this is fun or not.
Sooooo ... first off, I agree that it depends on what they do. Depending on that, it could mean nothing or it could mean everything.
But if they don’t go the way where it affects everything- they deserve to give up writing and we need new series showrunner!!
Soooo what they SHOULD do is have the Doctor look for who she is. Where are her people? How do you get to her home world? Where is that? Are these people looking for her? Are these people bad people? A new villain that will be reoccurring (even after the current doctor)?
Imagine if the doctor finds out that her people consider her loss as some huge deal. And they felt that she was lost to the ages. And then when they find out what happened and what the Time Lords did - they start a war against people in our universe. And punish everyone (I am assuming she isn’t from out universe) in this universe for the actions of the few. And the Doctor fights them and somehow convinces them to stand down.
And that’s just one potential option.
It should have been Susan, and that would have created/brought back/explained a mysterious character, and the fact that she doesn't quite seem Gallifreyan, or a bit scatty/confused, but this is because she has been captured by the Time Lords and experimented on for millenia, and The Doctor rescues her, and takes her on as his adopted grandchild, even though she is more powerful than all of them put together.
Great idea! Susan would be great, and that would make for a terrific plot. Only, I think immortality is not a superpower, she wouldn't be more powerful, to stop evil or to make things she wants happen. Neither is the Doctor as the Timeless Child... We humans crave immortality, but an immortal wouldn't automatically kick everyone else's butt.
That actually would've been pretty cool. I suspect it wouldn't have been as effective for the upcoming arcs Chibnall has in mind but time will tell on that.
That would have made Hartnell "The Timeless Adoptive Grandfather", I guess ;)
Honestly the fact that it doesn't really change anything makes me more mad. Cause why do it then? It makes it feel even more like Chibnall messed with the history of the Doctor just for a cheap gasp from the audience that wasn't even a cheap gasp because The Doctor being the Timeless Child was the most obvious choice because she's the main character. That's not even getting into how I think it fundamentally makes the Doctor less interesting of a hero because now she's "The Chosen one". It not changing anything or adding any meaningful dimension to the Doctor, The Master, or the Time lords is one of the things that makes it bad imo
In the end I’m wondering if this was Chibnall half setting up a story element, but also maybe trying to remove the burden for future writers to find the way keep giving the doctor regenerations
But who knows
Here are my predictions for the rest of the Chibnall Era:
1. Jodie Whittaker’s final series will be series 13, and Jo Martin will be revealed as a future incarnation of The Doctor (The 14th Doctor), and hence will be the main series Doctor for series 14. (What supports this is that recent actors have played the role for only 3 series. In addition if Jo Martin is revealed to be a future incarnation, it makes sense that Chibnall would look over that version of the character, it would be unfair for a future show-runner to deal with her involvement regarding The Timeless Child).
2. On this subject I believe Chibnalls era will last until Series 14 and end on the 60th Anniversary Special, and depending on how Jo Martin feels, she’ll either leave with Chibnall at the end of Series 14 or stay for series 15 and beyond with a different show-runner to explore The 14th Doctors character further in a new set of adventures and arc.
3. UNIT and Torchwood will come back in some kind of “underground” form either as merged or still two separate entities.
4. Captain Jack will most likely be a secondary companion to The Doctor in at least series 13.
5. This last prediction is more speculative than logical but I’ll say it regardless. I believe the 13th doctor will be forced into regeneration by the Time-Lords against her will. Perhaps she begins to turn evil over the course of Series 13, or in the very least does something quite bad. Hence she is forced into regeneration as a punishment, where the Jo Martin Doctor is forced to work under them via The Division, and in the process gets her mind wiped. This explains why 13 and the Fugitive Doctor don’t recognise each other.
I'd LOVE to see a series with McGann as the Doctor! On the rest, the more I think about it the less sense it makes, character-wise. Are we the sum/result of our memories? Is the Doctor the "same" person before and after the mindwipes? And there must have been multiple mindwipes, with Time Lord history being measured in the millions of years, and a single Time Lord's life across multiple incarnations averaging up to ten thousand years... If the Doctor is the same, even without their memories, I'd assume they'd have a massive impact, if not in the Universe, at least on Gallifrey. From Hartnell to John Hurt, the Doctor is certainly known to the majority of the population of Gallifrey. How could everyone *forget* about a few previous Time Lords also naming themselves "The Doctor" and acting in a similar way? Were the previous Doctors a secret from the population of Gallifrey? Or was the Doctor "frozen" for thousands of years after every mindwipe, until most everyone forgot about them? Did Romana know this secret? It's a hell of a conspiracy, even for Time Lords, keeping this secret with a handful of people knowing and monitoring it, for such a long time. How could the Doctor not trip over, multiple times, on evidence of their previous presence on multiple planets and civilizations across the universe? They'd certainly begin to suspect it, and even be inspired to take steps against it being repeated. And what's the point of it all?
The timeless child reminds me of a comic book retcon, they happen, people get pissed and after a few years another writer comes and ignores it or changes it back. I think that will happen with Doctor Who, specially because the next generations of DW writers might be the ones that grew up with the idealization of Galifrey by Russell T Davies's Doctors or Moffat's "Galiffrey falls no more". When I think of every Doctor Who run as a comic book run, it get easier to digest revelations that I don't like.
They essentially did that with getting rid of the whole "last of the timelords" thing. They started the new series with that major shakeup, and they've slowly undermined and changed it as the show has gone one. It took a long time to undo it, though. Hopefully the timeless child thing will go away a bit quicker.
You're absolutely right about how little this revelation changes anything about the show or even its characters. The Gallifrey lore has generally always been some of the least interesting aspects of Doctor Who as a franchise, and they were at their most impactful when they were all assumed to have been killed off in the Time War. I did feel the same way about how it makes the Doctor too special compared to other Gallifreyans, but as I've mulled over it, it just makes the Time Lords out to be what we kind of always knew they were: a bunch of pompous pretenders in stupid hats that the Doctor wanted nothing to do with and the feeling was mutual. That certainly hasn't changed, either.
Really, the only thing it changes is it raises the question of who the Doctor's people really are, and if they're also pompous assholes in stupid hats that the Doctor will end up wanting nothing to do with, which they probably will be.
So I think lore wise, sans if they decide to make the doctor some sort of god like being from outside existence or something, it actually doesn't change much. Yeah The Doctor was a key part in the creation of the time Lords, but alot of other things happened too. All we know is that the doctor gave them the ability to regenerate, which is only one, albeit big, factor. They still figured out time travel, have other powers (telepathy is used multiple times), are interconnected with time, likely due to the same explanation they give, and many other things. Regeneration is important of course, but it's still only one thing, and that isn't the only reason they became who they were anyway.
The only things it could change thag would be big is making the doctor an important figure in the universe, the idea that the doctor is immortal due to infinite regenerations, and the idea that the doctor is some powerful, god like being.
However all of these have the potential to not be dived into, or not true. The Doctor may have infinite regenerations (which is something they could easily change), but it's been shown multiple times that the doctor, and time lords (which the doctor still is) can be killed before they can regenerate or finish regenerating. So, that doesn't really matter.
The Doctor could some god like being, or could be some alien species that just happened to fall out of the sky one day. Maybe due to unfortunate circumstances, maybe due to some other reason that doesn't involve some grand scheme. Maybe the doctor is from another universe, or is from way far into the time lords original timeline and sent back. Maybe the doctor was originally from another dying race wishing to save some of their species. It could be any number of things that don't involve a god like being. If that's the case, it again doesn't change much besides the doctor wasn't a time lord originally. Besides, The Doctor is obviously/basically a Time Lord now due to either experimentation (most likely), the same effects that the other Time Lords experienced, or some other reason. What the doctor was originally or where the doctor comes from only becomes big if the doctor is some god like being, which is something they probably won't due. Besides, it's not that far fetched (in sci fi) that a being would find a way to fight off injury, disease, or harm, by drastically changing their body. The only real crazy thing is that it's by regeneration, not some sort of cellular process that would likely involve some form of hibernation/deep sleep.
The biggest, and most possible big change, is making the doctor more important in the universe. They could decide to leave it at the doctor was a key reason why the time lords came to be. However, as big as that is, it's not as big as one might think. The Time Lords still discovered time travel, had their physiology changed drastically, and discovered and did a number of other things. Regeneration is a big part of who the Time Lords are, but it isn't the only thing. They are called Time Lords afterall, not regeneration lords. Besides with all the technology they had, they would've figured out a way to extend their lifespans anyway. The other thing to keep in mind is that the doctor is still only important because of what the doctor does, which is very different than because who the doctor is. Anybody has the potential (the ability or how likely they are, while kind of besides the point, is another matter) to be important because of things they do or things that happen to them. The Doctor is thus still a crazy person who flies around in a box, goes where he/she is needed, and helps where the doctor can. That's obviously important, and I think the biggest thing that could potentially be harmful from this. As is though, even the biggest thing about the doctor is something that happened to him/her in that some Time Lord experimented on the doctor, and gave the time lords the ability to regenerate. While that is big (and you could argue makes the doctor important because of who the doctor is) it isn't the biggest thing as I mentioned earlier.
This would of course change if they decide to make the doctor important because of who the doctor is. By doing that, it takes an important aspect of the character away. The doctor may be important because of things he/she does, or things that happen to the doctor, but that isn't who the doctor decides to be or who the doctor identifies as. The doctor is someone who goes where he/she is needed, and helps when they can. The Doctor doesn't identify as someone who is this super important being who the universe relies on. However, by making the doctor important because of who they are, you lose alot of that. It becomes hard to just ignore the fact that even if the character decides to say that's not who I am, the character is still an important figure in the universe because of who the character is. That's a problem as it makes the character way less relatable, which is important, especially for a main character. Very few people are, or can be, important because of who they are instead of things they do or happen to them.
I hope they don't do that though, and I'll keep hope that they don't. It still is a horrible decision and really destroys alot of the episode, and season if not the chibnall era. The master would've been a perfect choice for the timeless child. Heck, literally any other random person besides the doctor would've been a good choice and made for an interesting complex story. As is though, despite how bad a decision it is, it just remains as a reason why that story, and possibly the chibnall era has been a tumultuous, difficult era so far. In addition, while it could be potentially disastrous for the series, character, and lore, it's more of an eye sore instead of disastrous at the moment.
This is the exact reason I was a bit surprised there was so much grumbling about it. Maybe I am just lucky that it was obvious to me at the time that it didn't really effect what has already been screened. My only wish about the whole concept so far was that they didn't make it the same TARDIS. But that is more a flavouring touch than anything.
I would be up for a Timeless Doctor series instead of the next incarnation. New rogues gallery, new rules.
I find it so odd that folks have an issue with The Doctor being a messiah for Gallifrey but the accept the Pandorica and that a restart of the universe cm be undone by a girl remembering someone that didn't exist to be remembered... Oh wait, River posted letteres, from inside the compu...
Side thought... Imagine Sasha as the Doctor and Jodie as Missy.... That could have been actual fun.
It doesn't change anything big, but it does change the way we view small things, such as the 9th doctor's regeneration. When he tells Rose "time lords have this little trick", when in reality he is the original owner of regeneration, it just makes the lines lose their value. The Doctor is now a superhero and regeneration is their superpower. I preferred it when the Doctor was an alien with an alien ability common to their species. I don't really know why, but I do.
Are we gonna get a “wolfwalkers” review
It has honestly never bothered me too much aside from some minor lore consistency nitpicks. I think I’m just waiting for the timeless child to be fully explained before I make a fair judgment. There’s still a lot that we don’t know, like where Ruth fits in to all this. And I’m glad we’re at least getting some insight as to what the doctors past was on Galiphrey
It makes 12's ending feel different to me. And in a way that bothers me.
**Arguments I've been making since the episode aired**
Yup, ditto. It's weirdly affirming having Nathaniel (mostly) come around to what I've been saying all along. :D
They should make Dr Who & the Daleks canon. Just have him be one of the old Doctors
I agree with you tbh... I would be seriously surprised if the next showrunner picked it up as even the best plots and narrative arcs are left in the past from the following showrunner.
However, personally I feel it’s a shame we’re talking about a series finale not mattering instead of getting a top quality ending that has us singing it’s praises :/
When the timeless children came out i was on the "doctor who is ruined forever" side but mrtardis mention the same thing he used hell bent as an example if chibs is gonna completely ignore hell bent which had big revelations about the doctor whats gonna stop the next showrunner from doing the same here
Even though I’m not the biggest fan of the Ruth Doctor, I kinda really want 13 to regenerate into Jo Martin so the timeless child can be rectoned without any problems. Also it makes way more sense than pre hartnell because of the Tardis being a police box. Also I think a prequel spin off would be better as a McGann show, or a current Torchwood show now is way more likely than a Ruth show. And I don’t really want that tbh.
Honestly I am more worried about the CyberLords .... (plus I have my own theory that the Master got it wrong and he (the master) is the timeless child not the Doctor.) So you know....
The CyberLords were wiped out by that particle bomb thingy, so they shouldn't be returning. Hopefully.
I almost wonder if The Timeless Child is Chibnall's attempt at a solution to the problem you've pointed out with Gallifrey being better the less you know about it. It may have been a clumsy attempt to re-inject some mystery into the Doctor and the Time Lords after Moffat gave us a little too much of Gallifrey to take too much of the edge off the mystery. Not that I really think this step was necessary or that this "solution" wasn't worse than the problem it (may have) tried to fix, but it might explain some of Chibnall's reasoning.
Agreed I felt people made too big of a deal out of it. We already had the War Doctor nobody knew about that version of the doctor existing this is just a lot more versions of the doctor that we did know about. Like I said I think it opens up more story-telling Avenues. Can't wait to see the Christmas special. Captain Jack forever
My own theory is the Doctor is truly the last of the Timelords in a literal sense. Imagine if at the end of everything , the true death of reality and time that the Doctor saves the last child of Gallifrey and imbues the child with every ounce of power left in the Doctors body. Then as the Tardis dies they open a breach through time and deposit the child where it's later discovered by Tecteuan (sorry I know I butchered it). Its a cyclical existence that is neverending. It does kinda make the Valeyard moot as if the Doctor has no final regeneration then there's no Valeyard to appear but I think Chibs hated the Trial of a Timelord anyway.
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It’s okay to disagree with opinions, it’s okay to have a personality clash; but what matters most (especially now) is that we don’t forget to love each other.
So, Earthlings; buy a shirt (if you can), donate to a charity (if you can), and remember to love (because I believe you can)...
My biggest issue with the concept of the Timeless Child is not the lore breaking because of the Doctor's pre-Hartnell lives, but the lore breaking because of them being the source of all Time Lord regeneration and being the only one and born with it. I alluded to this in a comment on your Zygon Inversion Take Two review but it's a recent trend especially in Doctor Who and Star Trek of "X CHARACTER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN ALL OF THE FRANCHISE!"
BUT to be fair, if you want to tie the Doctor to the creation of regeneration, you can make that work. If, for example, the Doctor themself had CREATED (or helped to create) regeneration and Rassilon took the credit (so as to not violate pre-established lore), I would have been more ok with that. Maybe the Doctor is out of time or has no test subjects, and so tests the regeneration process on themselves, and so they still wouldn't have to have the "new" 12 regeneration limit. So if you want to tie the Doctor to the beginnings of regeneration, that could work. But as is, the Doctor being born/discovered with regeneration and being the first and only one with this capability, and not even being from Gallifrey, it makes the Doctor out to be some sort of messianic or god-like figure to the Gallifreyans. And that doesn't work for me. I'm tired of the chosen one trope.
This makes the Doctor historically important in a way that doesn't make the actual *person* more important. I'm actually a lot more okay with that than with the aggrandisement of Eleven's run. I wouldn't much like the Doctor to have helped develop regeneration either for the same reason - it feels like it makes the Doctor more important as a *person.*
I guess it doesn't really mean much technically. It changes a bit how I view the Doctor, it gives her a bit of a chosen one feel rather than just someone who didn't fit with society and decided to strike out on their own.
though I do question how River became a Time Lady, the doctor said it was due to exposure to time energy like the time lords but now it isn't how they got regeneration.
As I understand it, exposure to the time vortex still predisposes you to develop regeneration. That's just not the way the Time Lords *initially* got the ability. The Silence may or may not have also done some tweaking to Melody to help that predisposition manifest itself.
Personally the way I see it is that any Time Lord could've done what the Doctor did - gone out into the universe to explore and make a difference. Some of them, such as Romana, probably would've even been better at it than he was. But he's the one who actually *did* choose to go out and do it.
I think it was designed to not matter, while initially looking catastrophic
I agree that it probably only means something to This Doctor and the Master. I have read that people hope that Sacha' Dhawan's Master was pre Missy ...so that that Master still has Missy's redemption. To me the Timeless child sets Sacha's after Missy as I think Missy would have acted differently towards the Doctor... maybe not destroying Gallifrey? Or maybe she would have?
My big issue is that it makes regenerations infinite, which takes some of the risk away for the Doctor. Granted the regeneration limit got fuzzier after the 11th Doctor anyway, but you always assumed regenerations were finite. Now there's no real danger for the Doctor. They can just die to save everyone over and over again. It feels kind of cheap.
We weren't told that the Timeless Child had infinite regenerations, and the ability might have fizzled out after 50 or 100 incarnations for all we know. Anyway, Tecteun eventually imposed the 12-regeneration limit, which - given Tecteun's skills as a genetic engineer - would probably have applied to the Timeless Child/Doctor as well as the other Time Lords, because they all share the same regeneration genes.
I recently had to reset my hard drive to factory settings so it felt for while like somebody else's computer, but occasional fragments of the old (a password in Chrome ) cropped up. If as you say the Doctor after his mindwipe, the First Doctor didn't remember his previous lives. Logistically, I would say we are lucky to get the episodes we are getting with Whittaker, but a special with a prior Doctor would have been welcome. And to be honest, I think NOT KNOWING the Doctors past helped make him/her more interesting than the other Timelords. IF The Cats out the bag fully wheres the mystery. Perhaps the next creative team can sort it, if there is one. Perhaps as someone said "Maybe they'll fix it later".
I don't understand this. Prior to this reveal we thought we *did* know the Doctor's past. Born on Gallifrey, raised in a barn, became a Time Lord against everyone's expectations, was friends with the Master, fled Gallifrey in a stolen TARDIS to see the universe. Now there's a massive gap in the Doctor's past. Dozens, maybe hundreds of incarnations we know nothing about. We know nothing about the race the Doctor is from. How is there *less* mystery about the Doctor now than there was before this reveal?
I'd forgotten how much I love Truth's Doctor shirt. It's very shades of Colin Baker.
The main two things that irritates me(right now, might be explained in some way at some point, either in or outside the show):
Firstly, I don’t get the timeline of the Doctor and the TARDIS, considering Jo Martin’s Doctor is pre-Hartnell. I mean, her TARDIS was stuck as a police box, while I feel like both the second episode of An Unearthly Child and the scenes from Name of the Doctor, pretty much confirms that he(Hartnell’s Doctor) stole it seemingly working.
Secondly, I don’t get The Time of the Doctor anymore. The Doctor is at the end of their life, so they get a new lifecycle, seemingly, or just some glowy pixie dust, because why not?
The eighth doctor, canonically, is half human, which affected diddly squat in subsequent episodes and in previous ones. At least I think it's canonically so... my recall isn't the best.
The Timeless Child is the biggest missed opportunity of Chibnall’s run. I’m calling it in, I don’t even have to know what else he would’ve come up with in the future. You could’ve had the timeless child be an entirely separate and new character. The character could’ve been a villain who despises any and all time lords for what they did to them. As I’ve heard elsewhere, the doctor could’ve pondered whether or not she should regenerate because it means she condones what happened to the timeless child. For the master, it drives him insane because this ounce of superiority he once had for himself has been a lie. He can’t forgive the time lords for doing something so grave against HIM. I’d rather just not think of the timeless child being the doctor. It angers me to this day.