The Game That Launched a Thousand Masterpieces
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- The importance of this game cannot be understated.
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1. Abstract Art and Video Games: 0:00 - 2:08
2. What is Ico and Why It's Important: 2:09 - 4:40
3. Synopsis (NO SPOILERS): 4:41 - 5:59
4. Story-Telling Without a Story: 6:00 - 9:04
5. Awe-Inspiring Visuals in 2001: 9:05 - 11:00
6. Ico and Yorda: 11:01 - 13:15
7. Various Games Inspired by Ico: 13:16 - 17:24
8. Summary: 17:25 - 17:54
9. Outro: 17:55 - 18:27 - Hry
Miyazaki entering the game industry after his friend made him play Ico is proof that we should all stop ignoring our friends’ game recommendations.
No, it's proof that it should be ignored more.
Right? Miyazaki was like "This game is way too peaceful. Hold my beer.."
@@kevinburke1325you're boring
@@junoperberry nope, you're boring.
@@kevinburke1325 - Here, champ. Have my response. I hope you'd put more effort into your bait next time :3
Ico is the greatest escort mission in gaming history
Facts. Lol.
Making escort missions fun is actually the holy grail of gaming.
And ppeople have the guts to say that escort missions in video games are bad.
*only great
@@talysdarkthoughts552but there are really a lot of bad bad
Shoutout to the person I meet on the snowy mountain in Journey, hope you're doing well where ever you are.
@Aliamus_ it was me, and I’m doing well. I hope you are doing well too!
@@jpope125 Thanks for that I had a good laugh.
I remember playing ico shortly after it was published when i was in college. I was a huge gamer and i had heard mixed things about it and picked it up. The big differentiator at the time was there not being a HUD/GUI. The screen was devoid of HP, stamina, magic etc. But my biggest personal takeaway was how it made me feel. I could never put it into words no matter who i tried explaining it to. What i always ended up telling people was "it really felt like i was holding someones hand, like i was alone in all the world, but i could reach out and hold this girls hand and know everything would be ok"
Whoa. That's exactly right dude. Well put. 🤝
Reminds me of Torment! Such a beautiful game and it's easy to fall into that world and live there in your mind. I have never played Ico, but I will put that on my bucket list. Glad I ran into this video. I love games that break the mold.
This was actually beautiful bro
Even a Hollywood giant like Guillermo del Toro loves Ico. It's both crazy and so well deserved just how much this games has influenced people since it came out. Ueda is a genius!
del Toro is awful, he's definitely not a giant, The Shape of Water is the worst and most ridiculous piece of propaganda I have ever seen.
Ueda on the other hand is a real artist.
@@golDroger88I agree with you. I watched Pans Labyrinth and it didn’t live up to my expectations because the end of the story kind of fell flat.
His movies are certainly popular in the mainstream media although he isn’t from Hollywood he is from Mexico.
@@blankblankity451 His movies are produced in Hollywood.
@@golDroger88 For a guy that constantly gushes about how much he loves monsters and horror, he can't help but make basic designs that look like backround enemies you kill without a second thought in a game.
The best part of this game for me was your relationship with Yorda. The two are completely alien to each other. They need each other to escape but it feels like so much more than a partnership of convenience. You are both children in a place where children (Maybe even life itself) doesn't belong. Yorda trusts you completely going so far as to jump across death chasms to your outstretched hand without hesitation. The game implies Ico could leave if he abandons her Yet he doesn't. He could have left Yorda on the bridge but he (Just like I did in the moment) Didn't even think and jumped right back to get to her. There is something just so genuine about what these two have. The biggest emotional moment for me in this game will be the absolute relief and catharsis of having the two reunite and finally just be free.
Playing Ico and shadow of the colossus were both defining moments of my childhood. The way the games made me feel was so unique. The lonely setting with vast lands, the melancholy endings. Both games changed my perspective on story telling.
Have you played Last Guardian? I've been meaning to get back into that one.
@@jcaesar19871 yes. I played it when I was in college. Really enjoyed it. Had a much different feeling when playing it than I did the others but the story itself was great. You can really feel the bond between the boy and the creature grow as the game progresses and it makes the ending extremely impactful
The Giorgio de Chirico Ico box Art really added to its depth and mystery.
I agree with you whole-heartedly when you consider the art after playing the game. When you know what the game is about, the art is fricking dope. When you're a consumer in 2001 looking for a new game to me, I look at the cover of that and I think to myself "eh, I'll just wait for Metal Gear Solid 2 to come out" or "I'll just finish my Legendary playthrough of Halo".
@@maxderrati saw this game when it came out. I didn't pick it up until 2014. Never finished it. Why should I. Watching the girl cradle the boy's head while listening to the game's liminal space music OST was the shit. And this was 10 years before that category of music had even taken off.
It's unfortunate that that wasn't the box art they went with originally in North America, the game probably would have been a bigger hit.
@@maxderrat ah it’s the enigmatic cover that makes me pick the game box up! Although tbf in this particular case ICO was a pleasant surprise on a demo CD with official PlayStation magazine back in the day. A magical era where the vignettes of ps1 games felt like mini Christmas mornings one a month. Like a book of short stories all with distinct identities, but all created a distinct collaborative ambiance. Sometimes the demos had more of a lingering fondness and sense of character than the full game once purchased, as expectations where always nil going in. I miss that era very very much.
Ico's cover is made by Ueda himself (sure, inspired by De Chirico)
It's kind of pity that ICO isn't as well known as Shadow of the Colossus
23 years later, Castle in the Mist/You were there occasionally pops up in my head. A classic which will forever remain as an important part of my childhood.
Unrelated to this video, but since you like ancient religions and philosophy so much, I recommend you watch the Turkish show The Gift. I have a feeling you'll really enjoy it. And it's even better when you have been to Cappadocia before🔮🌈🧭
For me, the greatest day in gaming happened on September 25th 2001, the day Ico and Silent Hill 2 came out.
I was a broke ass kid who just quit their job a few weeks earlier, so I didn't have enough money to buy the games but had all the time in the world. I managed to scrape together the $9 I needed to rent them. I waited at the Hollywood Video for them to get their shipment and do the rigamarole to get them ready to rent out. And over the next 4 days played the two most impactful games I've played in my life.
What struck me the most about Ico is that the hand holding mechanic is, by default, not a toggle... you hit the shoulder button and Ico grabs Yorda's hand, you press it again and he let's go... No, you had to hold the button down for him to grab her hand and let the button go for him to let her go. In conjunction with this, the rumble was then closely tied into Ico and Yorda's animations. Running while holding Yorda's hand is not portrayed as a particularly smooth action. Ico starts running, Yorda reacts a little slowly and he tugs at her arm to get her up to speed (it's all physics driven and very smooth), and every action is accompanied by rumble, creating a real connection from the on screen action to a physical sensation your hand. It was the best use of rumble in a game after Metal Gear Solid.
I love ico so much. It’s insane to think that fumito ueda’s first two consecutive games went on to become some of the greatest and most influential games of all time
Personally, I would be down for a Sonic '06 Remake...
Look up Project 06
Rollin around at 343 m / s
makes me wish that kind of game was still mainstream compared to the triple As we have now
Idky people don't talk more about ICO's OST but it is gorgeous and completely bipolar! One moment you have small sounds made with a synthesizer and others you have a full blown chorus.
The battle song actually FEELS like the shadow enemies would feel, in my head: grimy, sticky and pulling your joy away. The simplistic sound design of the save point, for example...it's so IMPRESSIVE how rested you felt with that song, as a player, and how ICO was also resting!
I think it's a master piece in many ways, but visually and musically, especially, it is transcendental.
Perhaps one of the few games cited more/more influential than Ico in the development of video games as an artform is Éric Chahi's "Another World"/"Out of This World". Definitely worth taking a look in this same sort of retrospective/historical lens
You can compare these foundational games as the Velvet Underground of the videogame genre
Man out of this world was just a crazy game
I tried playing it when it was released on PS4(?) for its anniversary I think and holy shit, 80s gamers were truly built different.
Oh that takes me back.
Ico was the first game to break my heart when it ended, because I just wanted to continue living in that castle forever. I know the object of the game is to find ypur way out, but I was sad to go.
Ico is the game that gave me a full time understanding of video games, and Ico is the game that started that trend of abstract artistry in video games. It still looks beautiful even today.
I will never forget how I felt the moment after Ico falls off the bridge onto the suspended platforms. The sense of urgency I felt as I got separated from Yorda, I knew I had to do whatever in power to get back to her as soon as possible.
Looking back I have come to understand what a formative experience playing Ico was and how it made me seek out other types of experiences, not only in video games but in other forms of culture as well. I became much more intetested in how somthing made me feel and reflect on details rather than presenting one single interpretation.
"Ico" and "SOTC" are my favorite games of all time, and Ueda my favorite person in video games! The fact he got his start under the wing of my other favorite, Kenji Eno, working for WARP, is a perfect confluence of creative genius. Ueda worked on Eno's "D" (*pause) (PS1/SS/3DO), "Enemy Zero" (SS/PC), and was influenced by the rebel rockstar of games. Looking at "D2"'s (the sequel to the classic "D") original prototype planned for the Panosonic M2 (3DO 2, which never released), before it was scrapped for the Dreamcast version, the art direction and ambience feel like Ueda had his hand in it, and gave similar vibes to his original CG trailer for "Ico" back when it was planned for PS, before it was pushed to the PS2. The trailers for both the unreleased prototype of "D2" and "Ico" would have been made between 97-99. I just love the connections and influences that can be traced back to your favorite creator's favorite creator. I was drawn to both these creators works before ever knowing who they were or their connections with other favorites of mine like "Legend of Zelda" and "Prince of Persia." Both series were both inspiration for, as well as inspired by one another. Synchronicity is beautiful!
It's odd, I played Ico, a LONG time ago, and while my memories of it are more than fuzzy, I can remember, as you were mentioning, feeling that anxiety, that desperation to keep Yorda safe.
11:24 It's funny you compared it briefly to Emma from MGS 2 because I really can't think of another game that made me feel more than those two. At the end of Emma's storyline in MGS 2 (avoiding spoilers, just in case) I was LIVID, I screamed, I went into the next room once I got control again and mag dumped into the first enemy I saw.
Then I loaded an earlier save, hoping against hope that if I did better, there was an alternate route for that scene. Even though I was certain there wasn't, given the cinematic, I wanted there to be so bad that I tried regardless.
Something that happened to me and a lot of my close friends is that I am from an spanish speaking country. I could only play games where I was able to understand the mechanics right away, but games like Ico or Sotc troubled me and my friends because of the weird controllers, layouts or methods of progress. And still we just loved them because of the environment and the way we could just wander around.
Going from Crash to Gran turismo to WWE and then getting hit with Ico was crazy
i haven't even played this game but
ICO - heal
was my most listened to track last year
I played Ico on PS2 in 2002. I had no idea what the game would be, but already the packaging with the cardboard slip case and printed art cards was something I had not seen in video games. The game hit me full power straight in the heart, like only some books or records had done until then. It was a video game but it felt like poetry. It was a beautiful, meditative, emotional experience that made me believe in video games as a form of art and storytelling.
I seriously hope they remake this for current gen consoles, because I'd like my kids to be able to play it, just like they can read the classic books by Astrid Lindgren or Tove Jansson. Ico (and The Shadow of the Colossus and The Last Guardian) are true gems in the history of video games and they deserve to be played by the future generations, just like some literature classics deserve to be read by them. Like the best of all art, Fumito Ueda's games are not works that only reflect the time in history when they were made or released, but they are more timeless structures, that build connections through decades, maybe even centuries. Ico might have aged technically, but its art and soul are ageless.
Haven't ever played ICO, but its soundtrack alone has left such an impact on me.
Ico's soundtrack holds up to this day, it's so beautiful and mesmerizing
Yeah. When you hear it, it's lovely.
Ico seems to me like the kind of game Yoko Taro enjoys
DUDE I ASKED FOR THIS AND YOU MADE IT!! I haven’t even watched yet but I’m so excited that you made this!
One of my all time favorite games. I grew up with this!
LOVE ICO! I actually first fell in love with its music and art before I ever played it. The slow unraveling of its lore, almost like archaeology, is a type of experience that I treasure to this day.
Wow, coincidentally I just finished my playthrough of Ico yesterday! I Finished it for the first time in probably 15 years. Weird that you posted this today! I remember getting it on the day of release way back in 2001. Actually, I remember playing the demo for it from OPM, I think it was. I was only 13 at the time but I remember thinking "this is something special". Such a melancholic, lonely feeling but calm and comforting at the same time. One thing I'd like to add in terms of Ico's lasting influence is how absolutely outstanding the animations were. There was NOTHING that looked or felt like that at the time. I think the movements hold up even today. Great video, and I agree with you on all points!
I love Ico, but I love Enslaved even more, and sometimes i wonder, if Enslaved would even exist if not for Ico...
Never felt so alone like I did in the last part of Ico in any game.
This game is just... oooof so darn beautiful
Love your content. Glad you see another video up
I remember playing it when it just came out on ps2. I was so attracted to the windmill scene with this pond and reflective water. Around that time it was such a beautiful game. I was mesmerized on the architecture and the isolation and became obsessed with it. It remind me a lot of the AD&D Gold box feeling of isolation and discovery (minus the combat hehe).
Great video! The influence of Ico was on my mind the past few days since a podcast I listen to was discussing the most overlooked influential games.
Which podcast (and episode) was that, if you don't mind me asking?
@@Mystic_Ode I'm pretty sure it was the latest episode of Sacred Symbols.
Off topic, but there actually is a promising looking fan remake of sonic 06 that is trying to polish the game that team sonic was trying to make
I love this game. Always felt it resonated with me much more strongly than either of the studio's other games. an absolutely adorable and haunting masterpiece
You keep talking about abstract art, but all the art in this video after the 25 second mark is pretty clearly figurative.
It is the last time I remember "discovering" a game. No trailers or CZcams reviews, just had the box catch my eye in the game store (Here in the UK we had the original box art in a nice card box). Now I literally have a shrine to the work of Team Ico in my living room.
Lovely video, friend. I love the whole "what we make of it/open to interpretation" approach to stories and art. I'm almost ashamed I still didn't play fully through this game, only a bit, but that's before I could look at video games in a way I do today. But from your video and bits you present, the whole premise, setting and design of ICO, I already have evoked in mind a profundity I could hardly describe, perhaps I'll make a video of my interpretation someday.
In Madden you end up dealing with 10 companions at all times. Sometimes they disappoint you by dropping the ball. Sometimes they get injured. But, sometimes, you get to watch them score.
Truly, an inspiration. Football is life. 🏈
ICO is a phenomenally wondrous game. You've illustrated a lot of the mechanical reasons here, Max, but what one does with that impression afterward--that's even more amazing.
I was very young when Ico released and remember renting it from a Blockbuster. I was so confused about the minimalist presentation being brought up on more cartoonish, flashy games. But I was struck by the beauty and quiet of the game. I didn't make it very far, but it stuck with me in my mind for years.
I've always loved Ueda's "Design by Subtraction" methodology. So many of the games I love the most tend to foster that, either in their narrative design or their mechanics. Whether they were designed using that concept in mind or not, I tend to find that it is super valuable each time it's executed. So many modern games have so much bloat.
Open worlds bigger than anything we've ever seen, RPG mechanics when they're not needed, a million characters who are super unique. But more often than not, you just don't need all that. Having a core experience, and making that experience as interesting and unique as possible, is really all you need.
Wait, Journey was a multiplayer game??? my life would never be the same
"a Thousand Masterpieces" That's some high standards right there
One of the first games I ever played was Shadow of the Colossus. I was so young that I couldn’t figure out how to get up to the first colossus, so I kept giving up. But even at that age I was so entranced that I kept trying until I figured it out, and by the time I beat the 16th colossus for the first time, I knew it was one of my favorite games. It took me about a decade to get around to ICO, but I found much of what I loved in that game too.
I’m very happy that it had such a profound effect on the industry, but I’m always disappointed when I watch or play something with a fantasy setting focused on magic, races, kingdoms, wars, etc. because Ueda’s games have permanently changed what I look for in fantasy. The unsettling yet comforting sense of isolation, the imposing and awe-inspiring architecture, the beautiful stories, the characters that are so well-defined without saying much at all. As an artist myself, I wish I could make something that has the same feeling to it that Ueda’s games give me just so there can be more of it in the world.
I’ve been playing games for around 20 years at this point, but I don’t know if anything has rooted itself more firmly in my subconscious than Ueda’s work.
Thanks for reading my fanboy rant. Lol
I'M GOING TO COMMENT ANYWAY. there's a dude making a "fixed" version of sonic 06 that not only fixes the game, makes it absolutely fun to play
Are we talking about Project Solaris?
@@mohammednegm4007 did it name change? I always found it as project 06. Also the guy never played a sonic game too.
@@snintendog sometimes that's what you need, a totally fresh set of eyes
@@snintendog well there was an old mod for the original called Legacy of Solaris (i mixed it up) and there's a full remake in Unity currently in the works by "ChaosX" (Project 06). I'm guessing that's what the comment refers to.
@@mohammednegm4007 I know it as project 06, maybe it changed name?
So satisfying seeing people finally recognize Fumito Ueda's works.
“What does this painting represent?”
My existential angst in High School art class in a building that had as much care conveying ideas articulately as the painting. I did not like doing studies and replicating paintings off the vaguest of feelings, which incorporated color theory, shapes ascribed with contextual characteristics.
Yesss I’ve been waiting for this day
I am surprised you did not mention yoko taro who was also directly inspired by ico 😅
I always love your knowledge of SO MANY GOOD EXAMPLE-GAMES! Practically for every word you speak you have something to show.
Shadow of the Colossus expands on the aspect of the relationship bonding between Wanderer and Agro in my opinion.
You need Agro for many battles and for exploring the Forgotten Land (otherwise it takes ages to cover it).
Thats why *that scene* hits hard when it happens.
Loved this video! Ico is indeed a beloved work of art and I appreciate that your video brings attention to it.
my favourite game of all time, so surprised and glad you decided to cover ICO. Amazing stuff as always
Thanks for the great video, Max.
11:20 Sonic 06 it's actually getting a remake, a fan remake... Hope you can still sleep at night
Rainworld has some abstract/surreal moments and there's pieces of the world without anything to interact with, Just landscape and background.
@Max Derrat, another Great video, Ico along with Zelda MM were my gateway games into games that really made me feel, though I didn't understand why at the time. Recommendations for you if you want a shorter out there game, I just finished "Who's Lila" I think you would like it. Keep up the great work!
Awesome as always to hear some good words of appreciation for this gem. I got my copy as a birthday gift when I was a kid and kept going back to it without ever managing to get a lot through it for ages before finally finishing it. It's hard to see myself keeping trying with such stubborness to finish a less captivating game.
Can't even find words to describe the importance of this game. Thanks Max, amazing video!
Even though it’s nowhere near this game, I think some parts of the Uncharted games, such as in Among Thieves, you get amazing views of the first Nepalese city, with the mountains towering in the distance, and sunlight pouring through dark clouds as you catch your breath between encounters
Losing your shit during gameplay sure sounds like a breath of fresh air
What I liked the most about the lack of music added to everything else in the since that being in that game felt like I was in an actual room, like I was really there
Like I would adjust to it and when sound would come it would startle me
Not cause I was scared but because I was like “oh what could that be?!”
The whole game was one mission that was over when you finished the game
Wish I'd been more patient with this game as a kid. Couldn't finish the demo and just wrote it off as "bad game, ignore"
now ill have to give ico a try
Thanks for the awesome content❤
I remember playing this game for the first time and realizing that games can truly be works of art rather than just to complete a goal. It's a truly magical game to experience the first time.
Also nice back to the Future reference
I think it would be cool for you to make a video about what kind of themes you would explore if you were to make a video game
Ico really needs more recognition
Lately, I've been trying to get my close friend into Ico. We've been playing it through multiplayer, me being Yorda, so he doesn't get too lost. We're about halfway through, but I'm not sure if he's seeing what I'm seeing when it comes to this masterpiece.
Ico sure as hell changed my life when I first played it, and I played it after playing Shadow of the Colossus. SOTC being my favorite game of all time. There's just so much to the game that only shows you so little!
I've never played ICO but I've seen this game over the years & watched walkthroughs. It's definitely influential without a doubt. There's other games out their around this time I think have the same impact.
Fantastic work.
I played SotC before I knew Ico existed, but as soon as I found out about it, I picked it up immediately. I can honestly say that few games have really touched me in the way Ueda's titles have, and I love going back and playing them every few years. Because the mechanics and premise are so simple, the game feels legitimately timeless.
Ico is for me one of the most underrated games in history, i hope to see in the future a remake like the sotc one
Wonderful Game and a fantastic essay! ❤
Fun fact: the game manual has a short little brief about Ico and the village he's from and why the men in hoods have come to take him away.
I remember when I was a kid and I saw a second hand game at the store and the game costed $120. I was wondering why the game is so expensive. That game was Ico.
Yeah boy THE GOAT IS BACK, I found you years ago thanks to your lore and theory videos of the games
I wanted to take a moment and thank you for the great work you are doing. Your channel is one of my favorite and I always look forward to your next videos
um... i may have been educated wrong in my art classes in the past, but that first example of abstract art of the Mona Lisa isn't exactly abstract, but rather falls into the camp of 'impressionist' right?
The role of "boredom" in art and the humanities is well documented: Josef Pieper writes on "Leisure: The Basis of Culture," postulating that the biggest developments in human thought have occurred at times when those doing the thinking were afforded luxury and time. Or, as Byung-Chul Han describes it in the much more recent "Burnout Society," the mind is capable of more abstract thinking when presented with "profound boredom." This boredom is something most people seem afraid of today, and that most game design tactics intentionally avoid. So no wonder so many games like Ico and those following it use emptiness and slower pacing to attempt to make the bigger moments more impactful while giving the player time to sit with their experience. Shadow of the Colossus is especially good at that (also Team Ico, of course)
The one next to the Mona Lisa in the intro is still figurative/representational art.
The fact Ueda accomplished this seemingly impossible feat three times is proof he's videogaming's true master.
@maxderrat can you provide the list of names for the games you showed in the first minute of the video?
Hidetaka Miyazaki, Hideo Kojima, Shinji Mikami, Hironobu Sakaguchi, Toshihiro Nagoshi, Shigeru Miyamoto, Satoshi Tajiri, Fumito Ueda, these men are my pantheon of video game creators.
3:43 I don't think that with the lack of music you *must* decide for yourself how a particular part of the game makes you feel. Precisely the absence of music (which can also be music, bc music involves sound and silence) already makes you feel a certain way. The developers know what they are looking to convey and how to do it, making you believe that the decision is yours. They really wanted you to feel that way.
Good video, btw 👌
Incredible video. Really enjoyed the overlap with modern games; never made those connections.
The point about dropping into a mysterious world with a forgotten history brought to mind Tolkien's Nameless Things, which, if I remember correctly, were included to help represent the unpredictability of life that would then resonate with the reader.
Again, incredible video!! I loved it.
12:53 I have two comments about this particular gameplay snippet:
1. The Shadows behave differently in your version of the game (the North American release, which was forced out the gate so early it might as well be considered a Beta Build) than they do in the final release. In the Japanese and European releases, they don't take Yorda into the nearest portal. They will actually often fly or walk to the most distant portal, relative to where they grabbed her. So in the final, it is not a problem that she might stand on a black hole, because it's never going to be the next one that she's taken into.
2. Yorda's AI is programmed to take position behind Ico during combat. Ico is defending her, and understanding that, she knows the safest place to be is behind one's shield. Everywhere she's moving is (unwittingly to players) a result of the player's own movement. If you want her to reposition, you either have to consider your own position, or just grab her hand and go.
Fantastic game, and a great analysis, thank you Max! Ico's surrealistic style is truly astonishing.
Ico also reminds me of another game, Another World by Éric Chahi. It served as an inspiration for Ico.
Ico is probably one of the most underrated masterpieces ever made.
In Darksouls 3 at the top of the grand archives there is a cage with a woman trapped in it. Seeing Yorda in the cage in this video immediately made me think of that. and after hearing about Miyazaki's love of the game i looked into it some more and the lore on the woman in the cage "Gertrude" has some interesting similarities to Yorda.
Hey max! Loce your videos. I personally think you should make a video on The longing,
My copy of ico ps2 arrived today I love you max
Ive only played Shadow of the Colossus, of the two games. Ive played a bit of Ico on the PS3 remastered collection, and same with Last Guardian. Both I've been meaning to get back into.
Ico is _one_ of the first games I've ever platinumed. From its story to the characters and I've loved every minute of it.
With that being said, maaaaan do I feel you on that Max. Yorda's AI going absolutely AWOL on you stressed me the hell out of me too.
Can anybody tell me what song plays in the very beginning of the video?
What is your closing statement "stay yellow" in reference to? This is the first video of yours I've seen, so I'm unsure if you've explained it elsewhere, sorry if you have :)