How Islam Began, Fred Donner: UnCommon Core Lecture
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2011
- In recent decades there has been much scholarly debate over Islam's origins. The traditional Muslim view has increasingly been found inadequate, but critical scholarship has not been able to reach a consensus on how Islam arose. The present talk surveys the issues at stake and a number of interpretations that have been recently proposed to understand just what happened at the origins of Islam 14 centuries ago.
Presentation by Fred Donner.
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Fred Donner and scholars like him are the real heroes of modern thinking about religion. Calm and thoughtful scholarship is what we need to listen to and learn from. The anger and intolerance in the comments here are tiresome to read and toxic: nothing is as bad and nothing is as good as what is claimed here.
Noah Kennedy I think his style is so boring! I have feeling that he was not sure to study this field.
@Noah Kennedy - Comments like this are conclusive proof that you haven't actually spent any time reading the Quran or hadiths. Or at least you had not when you wrote this comment; CZcams tells me that I am writing 3 years after your comment. Anybody that has read the Islamic scripture, any significant part of it, for it is not necessary to have read all of it; knows that Islam is WORSE that what the people describe in the thread comments. It is truly beyond the imagination of anybody who grew up in the West, unless they have studied it.
Darrius Cole - I doubt you know what you are talking about since no civilization can spread and become dominant as Islam did for so many centuries if its core values were corrupt in the first place. The other commentators in this thread show this level of understanding and nuance. That you don't demonstrates you and your jaundiced views don't belong here.
Unfortunately, I DO know what I am talking about. The values ascribed by the Quran are bad beyond the imagination of the average person born and raised in the US or Europe. If you don't think so then you either 1) Are a muslim yourself or 2) You have not read it. Most muslim people are better than what is allowed in Quran.
Also, the fact that Islam spread does not mean that its underlying virtues are good. Governments with corrupt values become dominant all the time.
And why his views do not belong here? And what the values are, if I can ask that lead to the genocide of Armenians? Islam was dominant because of the military conquests not because of the values it represents.
Having lived in different countries with different beliefs, I can say one thing very clear and loud;very few people are practising their belief. The most of us worship money and power. Regardless of beliefs, we have this phenomenon in common. No difference, quintessential all the time.
So well said.True most time and places.
cant agree more
Wisepersonsay we are not discussing people but a religion.
@@byronwright1612 he is certainly not the same as our God. Mainly (I think) because the socalled angel Gabriel who gave the messages to Mohammad, was not an angel of God and his messages were more diabolical. than anything else. Even M. thought the angel was a demon , in the beginning.
What did Jesus say? 🤔 No one can serve two masters... it's either God is your master or money is your master". The Bible speaks truth once again...................................................
I am a Muslim, and unfortunately many Muslims are afraid of Western scholarship & academia when it comes to the Qur’an or Islam (so too are many Christians & Jews when it comes to their religion), because they think it will invalidate their faith or cause them doubts. But I have to say that I actually find it INVIGORATING and REFRESHING to hear new, open-minded and diverse perspectives and insights that academics have to share. I often find gems that INCREASE my faith when I read their works. You don’t have to accept all of it, but that’s the point-have an open mind and be willing to listen to new perspectives, and be a critical thinker who thinks for themselves. As the Qur’an itself encourages:
*”Those who listen to what is said, and follow the BEST of it. It is **_those_** whom God has truly guided. Those are the ones who possess real intellect.”* _(Qur’an __39:18__)_
Muslims are not afraid of Western Scholarship and academia after all it has had its own scholarships for hundreds of years analysing Islam as well.
What is disconcerting is when bias and prejudice is dressed up as scholarship and academia and sold to unsuspecting poorly educated Muslim populations.
To give you an example : Dr Daniel Brubaker and his book (20 Corrections in the Quran(?)). Although the book itself was not a work of scholarship it was presented as an extension (or extract) of his scholarly thesis. It is clear from the book that Dr Brubaker had already made up his mind about the preservation of the Quran before even listing one so-called "correction".
As i said Muslims are not afraid... and in fact the Quran ITSELF challenges everyone - including scholars and academics - to critically analyse the Quran. If Allah himself is not afraid of academia and scholars why should Muslims be?
Its not really about accepting or not accepting what western academics say. It is about validating their accuracy and truthfulness and eliminating prejudice and bias from their work.
The truth/haqq is from Allah and hence ANY haqq is acceptable to Muslims even if expounded by western academics and scholars. However lies and innuendos presented as truth are strongly rejected.
@@sidprice6214 you said it beautifully
@@afiqmohd1150 Thanks. Its mostly common sense which people don't seem to want to apply.
How does it increase your faith to find out that the whole religion was basically shaped as a political tool?
@@heliosperegrin Methodological naturalism. Do yourself a favor & look up those two words 👍🏼 Take care.
Definition of believers is given in 3rd chapter, beginning of Surah Al Imran. It says believer is one who believes in one God, all Angels, all holy books, all Prophets of Allah, Judgement day,
I personally think this man was somewhat fair with his opinion of how Islam started. He tried to stay as respectable as possible being a non-Muslim. NO, HE WONT TELL IT LIKE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL IT BECAUSE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL THE STORY WITH A PASSION OF BELIEF IN ISLAM!
We owe such gratitude to academics, and academic historians in particular, for their consistent search for truth.
Thanks for the calm and thoughtful analysis. I have to emphasize that your arabic pronunciation is impeccable. Very impressive!
I personally learnt a lot about the history of my own religion.
This is more shocking czcams.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/video.html
@Anas Siddiqui So because the Bible is Wrong, do we need to believe in the Quran?... Looks like both are wrong.
@simp hunter Because the Bible has more consistency historically. The Bible was created during a big period of time, when the Quran just in 20 years
@simp hunter Are The stories in the Quran about the prophets correct or not?, because many of them contradict the stories in the Bible.
@simp hunter I think the Bible is more in line with history because it has been written in a big period of time. The Bible shows what the people of different times think about God(s),. In the other side, Quran reinterprets all those histories. Sometimes the Quran took stories and did not know exactly what they mean. Example the word Injil or Messiah. One additional contradiction that I found in the Quran is when they refers to God in first person plural, WE.
Learned a lot from watching this. It is truly amazing how little we know about the past. As a teacher, I try to emphasize the use of primary sources, yet we have so little of them for such big topics like origins of religion.
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@@inquisitivemind007 Yep! Muhammad never went to Jerusalem, except in his dreams riding a flying donkey(!). When Islam was young and Muhammad thought that he'd be able to convert the Jews, he had his first disciples (muslims) to pray towards Jerusalem. Of course, the Jews were not very convinced. What did Muhammad do then? He expelled and beheaded all Jews of his hometown, and had the gibla changed from Jerusalem to Medina.
@@attiylanen lies lies lies,it was not a dream but a real journey , see what you are doing is picking and leaving narrative from the hadith which suits your belief , horse was running not flying , Islam wasn't young it always was since Adam
qibla was first put towards jerusalem to remove strong racial felling from the Arab Muslims not impress because it was there since Mecca period when there were no Jews , muslim punished only those Jewish tribes who broked there treaty others were allowed to live , qibla was changed to Mecca not medina
@@saimtanweer5720 wrote: "horse was running not flying" If not flying, then answer me this: why did the 'horse' have wings?
If it was not flying, how could Muhammad make the journey from Mecca to Jerusalem in one single night?
If it wasn't a dream, but a real journey, how is it possible to make the trip from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night on a horseback? Plus, From Jerusalem Muhammad also flew to heaven. How ridiculous can one story be?
But you are correct in this one. I made a mistake: Muhammad did change the qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca, not to Medina. That was my bad. See, I'm able to admit when I make a mistake or when I'm wrong. I've never seen any of your people admit when you're wrong.
Everybody is free to read the whole story about the so-called break of treaty and how it was justified to have Muhammad behead 900 chained POWs in a single afternoon. Just read the Life of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq. It's all there. Don't take my word for it, neither take the word of any muslim. I urge everybody to just read it.
@@attiylanen wings were there 2 move really fast , and it wasn't a horse but a creature named buraq and it was too fast that's why it went to jerusalem to Medina in single night and from jerusalem to heaven was done with Gabriel not buraq correct if I'm wrong , so you can't say God can't do it for his Prophet
Firstly you made another mistake , the judgement for Banu quraiza was given by Saad bin muad who made the treaty between muslim and Jews of Banu quraiza , if prophet would have did it he would have just expelled them from Medina for there treason And it was done according to DEUTERONOMY ch 13 rules
, It wasn't so called break of treaty , it could have caused great loss to muslim , and saad died just few days after this judgement because he was wounded and Jews themselves choosed saad to give punishment for them And Ibn ishaq said 800 not 900 ,don't add extra , secondly his report is doubted by Muslim historian due to several reasons first ibn ishaq is not completely authentic and has some wrong narration , secondly the quran said about that punishment " some you executed and some you took captives " in ch 33 , so it is most authentic , and some other studies show that this large amount of men couldn't have belonged to single tribe and Medina a small city had no place for burial of these many mens and it happened just few hours after battle of trench , so most generally they would have been buried in the trench but report says they were buried in market place which doesn't looks correct because muslim were exausted so they wouldn't have took the pain to dig another grave yard
Bismillah Hir rahman nir raheem
Always begin your day with Fajr prayer and Ayat AL KURSI.
READ QURAN EVERYDAY AND NEVER IGNORE YOUR FIVE DAILY PRAYERS
As a Muslim, I appreciate every second of this video. I didn't know even know 10% of this information about my OWN RELIGION. Thank you for this. Truly.
i like it also because it fits more with the concept of mohammad pbuh. i mean the way he treated people
JAMES IRVINE Exactly!!!
It's rubbish.
You should be ashamed of yourself
Don't take information from these dishonest academics. Go to credible sources. They can tell you lot better. We have non Muslim and Muslim testimonials with chain of narrations that no other civilization can boast of. Yet they paint Muslims as dishonest while taking all other historical evidence without enough testimonials.
Biased and racists.
I like Islam whatever haters say...
lol kill the infidels take what your right hand has. Hate Jews, women have half the intelligence of men, throw gays of tall buildings, kill someone if they leave Islam, stone a woman to death for adultery, child marriage, placing Christians/Jews 2nd class citizens. You’re right what is there not to love.
Historically differs from secular and other Abrahamic sources e.g. claiming Abraham was Muslim and he built the kabba etc etc
Thank you for this very informative lecture! I think it is important that we know what we're talking about :) - and it's a great way to discover the lies which are also being passed on in the media and so on, which could easily be used for propaganda etc. Thanks again.
Green 💚 colour hair..
Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions.
No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,,
Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society.
Hum converted SUWARS Hai.
Hum KALAMA Padhate hai...
Huma-me JAJABA hai...
Hum TALAK de sakate hai...
Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)...
72 HOORS with big boobs for us...
We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)...
Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
I’ve never seen anyone do it better.
try Cira International, have fun . . . ..
@@sylvia7000 cira is just a bunch of liars who twists things to suit tbeir agenda! They've been already exposed by their own people many times!
Great scholar...clam and clear understanding on the topic
Benjamin Park he is a professor of Islam and near eastern studies. He is considered a orientalist scholar. I have his book that I used in seminary called narratives of Islamic origins. His profile in it calls him a scholar 🤔
This is more shocking czcams.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/video.html
Very interesting. Thanks a lot Mister Donner!
So Islam is a fine tuning of the previous religions rather than a separate endeavor
Ppl change scriptures according to their desires islam is the last nd correct narration of all religions specially abrahami
An Absolutely wonderful lecture !
Yes, a new look to the beginning is needed
Abdullah Al-Selwi
I am a non-practising New York Jew married to a devout Episcopalian Irish man.
We just visited the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. What a magnificent building!
What I’ve found remarkable is that the Shrine of Nabi Yahya bin Zakarya (St. John the Baptist), has been given a special place inside the Sanctuary of the mosque. John, my husband, not the Prophet, has been very proud ever since that he got the chance to visit the shrine dedicated to the eponymous of his namesake, in a Muslim country of all places, far away from his parents’ native Ireland.
@@miriamsackler5002 yahya a.s ,moses a.s jesus a.s ,mohammed s.a.w etc are all prophets and are being respected equally
why? It is all made up bullshit anyway
His Arabic pronunciation is very good!
At what minute did he speak Arabic?
@@naser766 some words like Amir ul momineen, hijra, and one ayat probably.
Very interesting lecture.
From the evidenciary texts state the references used within the Koran are quite directly drawn from Judaic Talmud or verbal recitation of the rabbinical traditions.
Truw
No it isn't far from truth. Stop claiming everything Islamic and proof it with evidence which you can't!!!
its almost the complete opposite, the talmud was fully organized in the 11-1300's and jews in arabia adopted many islamic concepts especially the greatest jewish scholar/rabbi maimonides, the Quran is very unique and still held as the highest form of the arabic language, you can hear the very clear distinction from the Quran rhyming and following a clear pattern while the rabbical verbal recitations are just teachings recited
It was Ernest Renan who said the Islam was born in the full light of history.
the islam give full light of the History :)
May be it was. But considering the large number of enemies the Prophet, considering the inter-Muslim quarrels than began immediately after his death, the probability of history catching the truth was very small.
the stupidest statement ever made by a westerner ,sure he was present at the birth he caught the yawling infant as it burst out of aminas vagina ,also was splashed with all the blood urine amniotic fluid feaces so renan should know,he just forgot to take a selfie
@@syedali7205 the fitna between the ummayads and the hashemites with the ansar struggle put in, makes early islam a historical nightmare.
anyone here have heard of "christian prince" ??.. seek it..
A real great lecture!
Sick explanation
Outstanding analysis!!
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Great video
1:52 there is an early historical recorded account from the ibadhi sect, who branched out of the mainstream first and it was by the prophet's companions. This was before 50yrs unlike the sources quoted relying on sunni traditions which came later
You right Fred, how there be a trinity when there is only One God
Because HE is 3 persons and He can’t lie and has shown Himself to mankind
3 men appeared to Abraham!
All 3 are YHVH.
So either believe God & Abraham
Or call God a liar!
P Harrison the concept of the trinity came 100 years after Jesus the prophet of God. And who came up with it? Unknown people..and one Jewish guy who lied about everything (Paul).
@@P.H.888 Trinity is an invented concept. See Codex Sinaiticus, an old manuscript. You'll see there is no Comma Johanneum. quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm
@@love1nada1 how can a g0d send down a book and not protect it from corruption? basically 40 different variants of the koran, not qiraats
@@feduntu how is there 40 different variants? This is the first I’m hearing of this.
Seems to be truthful and honest, non-biased presentation.
@Al Mudarabah I'm afraid you're incorrect. Your judgement of levels in Islam is A BIG part of modern Islam interpretation. The professor is simply analyzing the Qur'an and is not wrong or said to have missed anything. He also conceded there's no historical evidence from the time of Muhammad. Your submission based on the Qur'an text is already modern Islam.
@@SoftSpeakin6 You're wrong.
@@stephenmurphy1003 and you're a Muslim 😋
Try listening to good scholarly sources such as Dan Gibson’s Sacred City, The Jay Show, Dr. Bill Warner-
@@SoftSpeakin6 damn ok lmao
One can only know the truth about any religion from real world history, not from the perspective of religious lectures.
The lack of historical narrative of the time points to the earlier origins of the religion. Islam was not founded by Muhammad SAW; he only continued the same divine teachings of previous prophets like Abraham, Moses and Jesus
You can tell reading most of the comments here that they didn't even bother watching the video.
Yeah because they’re not here in order to learn they’re here to fight.
I am confident as a Christian for being competent enough to follow this discussion through comparison and contrast and the depth of the subject required to listen here, as well other discussions and debates I am following.
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Nice to hear a well structured lecture
Great lecture. Thank you 🙏
Very informative and interesting. Thank you for sharing.
12:28 The volume spikes, I had a feeling there was a problem with his mic...Watch out iof wearing headphones or watching late with speakers...
Richard Wendling
thank you
This is more shocking czcams.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/video.html
Very informative. It answered a question I had for a while.
May I know which question?
@@jenniraisovna5698 How mo ha mad married the six yo aisha
@@esam3477 Marry gave birth to jesus when she was 12... your God 😂
@@tiikos8821 you are just a liar like your prophet and your al lah...
Nowhere is her age mentioned in the bible...
Compare with your aisha the six yo who married your 54 prophet and he put her on his legs.
@@esam3477 Search about it and find the truth. WE DON'T LIE 🙄
We don't worship a god who was a baby....
As a Muslim, I feel every religions are man made politics of old. No god wants people to worship them as slaves, only Monarchs of the past wanted people to fear the unknown and obey rules which is not a bad thing politically. God the supreme one is loving and loves us all. Only the supreme one planned everything and will take us all back one day from every living to non living things.
One of the most sensible explanations of the origins of Islam,without the bombastic preachings of Islamic scholars who believe they are right and everyone else are infidels and are wrong.
Well, infidels are wrong!
This was a good lecture. I'll be looking for more by Fred Donner.
Green 💚 colour hair..
Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions.
No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,,
Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society.
Hum converted SUWARS Hai.
Hum KALAMA Padhate hai...
Huma-me JAJABA hai...
Hum TALAK de sakate hai...
Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)...
72 HOORS with big boobs for us...
We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)...
Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
I suppose this guy's second language is Arabic as his pronunciation of Arabic words is perfect which is very rare among westerners. Yes I am an Arabic person.
He study Arabic at the Middle East Centre for Arab Studies (MECAS) in the village of Shimlan, Lebanon.
i think second language is a bit of a stretch, but he's surely studied it. i speak urdu and am muslim, and I've been told i have really good pronunciation, but i can only very vaguely understand it.
@@kehana2908depends who told you you had really good pronunciation.
1. Because people weren't operating in a literary culture, but one of oral tradition and recitation.
2. The Hadiths are alleged sayings which Muslims may choose to take or leave (unlike the Qur'an). Many prefer to leave many of them and simply say they don't agree with them.
Thanks very much from SOAS London! ;)
If you read all the comments here, its as if none of them bothered to watch the video. If not that, then their basically saying they know better than a historian with a PhD who is the director of the center for middle eastern studies at chicago university.
It only takes perseverance to get a PhD. There are a lot of quacks with doctorates. And yes I am sure there are folks on these threads with a better understanding of Islamic history than this fool.
The worst part is he has spent years recovering, translating and documenting 7th century Arabic papyrus' which literally no other living person knows of.
comes as friend turns out your master
This is more shocking czcams.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/video.html
Excellent presentation.
One weakness is the omission to consider the many fractions, theological debates and disagreement within the christians, and probably jews as well, at the time. E.g. monophytism as pointed out by Prof. Freedman in Yale, also available here.
Thank you
AI HAVE NOTICED WHEN THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HERE THE SUBJECT, THEY TURN THE VOLUME DOWN WHERE YOU CAN'T HERE IT ON A SMART PHONE, I WISH PHONES HAD AMPLIFIERS, I HAVE MY PHONE IN A BIG CERAMIC BOWL, AND IT HELPS SOME.
Hear
There is no conspiracy. It is just how it happened to be, and it was later adjusted so there is nothing there but happenstance.
... just put some headphones on
You can turn up your volume or wear earphones lmao
OMER SERIES is made in which all battles with persian and roman empires are covered .quality is no less than hollywood .consists of 30 episodes
It began when God (Allah) gave a last chance to humanity to go back to what we should’ve stayed on (worshipping the only god who created us) by sending his prophet (Muhammad) with the last massage (Islam)
Islam is pagan idolatry created by your false prophet
Amazing effort and interpretation, but I don't understand how Dr. Donner's view of early Islam as the revival movement of monotheism which included jews and christians who were "rightly monotheist" contradicts with the traditional narrative? I am a muslim and what he introduce is what I already know from the traditional narrative.
Very few appreciate a lecture from a person who took the learning and took the trouble to do his best . It is quite clear that more intolerance exists than tolerance and understanding and good- will towards faiths other than one’s own .
Islam is pure intolerance
I ageee with a lot of what he says. I was raised Christian and became a Muslim. I dont think they are different religions but the same. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to help bring us back to God's original message that he gave to everyone (so originally Jews and Christians) but their messages changed over time. Thats why i dont like to say "revert"or "convert" since its more like my faith has always been there, but ive come to a better understanding of God's original message. Therefore, this man's lecture with believers and how historical evidence of churches that were split with Muslims and Christians make so much sense
Before converting to islam, you should finish your education. Now your opinion is that of a moron.
@@George-iv1hi yeah, this is the way you get people to buy what you selling.
I converted to islam too.
Y friend became a reborn Christian, and introduced to me the concept of God.
I started to learn Christianity… and then stumbled upon Islam, and the lord of the universe explained to me Christianity better than what current Christianity is. I believe Christian’s are really Muslims, but they don’t want to believe it, but I do, because the lord of the universe taught us this, Jesus was a Muslim too Alhumdulilah
They're actually totally opposed.
There are basically 2 religious systems out there, one based on salvation through faith (Bible Christianity alone) and the other one, where Islam is included with all of the other relions out there, based on salvation through own works, deeds.
No true student of the Bible can ever become a muslim or anything else for that matter since they all lack "The way, The truth and The life".
@@MrCls88 this is a biased opinion, no offense :) every religion will teach "this is the true religion" and devote followers will be convinced their belief is truth. Our job is to research not just what the religion teaches (e.g. does it make sense, is it logical) but the evidence and strength of that religion being true. Christianity has such a beautiful message of love, hope, salvation but when it comes to evidence of reliability, it unfortunately is very weak. Nobody knows who wrote the 4 gospels for example. They were called Matthew mark luke and john in the 2nd century but were written unanimously. Biblical scholars believe the apostle Paul only wrote half the books claimed to be written by him. Biblical scholars also believe peter couldn't have written 1 and 2nd peter because it was written in highly skilled Greek and peter was an illiterate fisherman who spoke Aramaic. Revelation was written by a man named John but not THE John, not one of Jesus's disciples. Ending of mark isn't original, story of the prostitute in John was a 10th century addition....the Christmas stories contradict each other because there is a 10 year gab between King Herod and Quirinius. Shall I continue?
In summary, I sincerely love Christianity. I really enjoy learning about the theology of Christianity (protestant). I listen to Biblical scholars basically every day. But the strength of evidence for Christianity really is weak. At the end of the day, it's not about which religion has the best promises and message. Its about which religion has the strongest evidence of being true. And from several years of research and learning, my conclusion is Islam has the strongest evidence of being true, despite my deep love for Christianity
(cont..)
and so would have been familiar with all three faiths through their oral traditions and recitation.
Our capacity to retain and recite at great length has atrophied hugely since we have become dependent on writing. We should not assume those before us operated in the same way. They didn't.
God bless your heart.
very poor audio. I have the volume on full and can hardly hear
your device is the problem
My Samsung Galaxy 10s plus is very good. I have the volume set at 3/4.
You have a bad device Bro
thanks for your perspective.Very helpful.
History has always had problems with sources as the mediums are not gold.
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That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Quran 4 : 157-158
....
I have to correct the professor's mistake or maybe he didn't know at the time but there are written pieces of parchment from the time of the Prophet that are available you can look them up. About his companions, the scholars of the early times collected the biggest biography on more than 10 000 Companions of the prophet all authenticated through the science of narrators also created by the early scholars of Islam to know the difference between false narrations and authentic ones which is a deep subject and understandable if someone wouldn't know about it and partly because most of this is in Arabic. But most importantly we have the Hadiths which come in both weak narrations and strong (authentic) narrations and in between, which also is being preserved by the science of narrators (ilmul rijaal) and the science of hadith (ilmul hadith). We have clear records of the prophet about what he ate what he did how he sat how he spoke how he married who he married why he did certain things how he prayed how he acted etc ... . We know more about Muhammad SAW then all prophets combined and i would even go further and say we know more about him then all influential people combined
and he also said that those hadiths were written down a couple of hundred years after which to be honest is a hell of a mistake and one prominent Shaykh in the US talked about this named Uthman Ibn Farooq a scholar of hadith. There are in the first 60 years already written works like The Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih and then The Musannaf of `Abd al-Razzaq al-San`ani: in the first century Hijrih Calendar and then the Muwatta of imam Malik at mid-second century and then the Musannaf of Ibn Jurayj and many more after that so it did not take a couple of hundred years.
and to suggest that we can't take Muslim sources for their religion is ridiculous because we would have no history because we take Greek History from the Greeks and the Roman history from the Romans and so on.
Very Good Lecture in Very Simple Way Described. Sweet and To the Point. Thanks...
Thank you very much for this video!
How is it that we have text from Aristotle and Plato? Muslims were masters of their historical narratives. There was Abu al Bakhtari, ibn Hisham, Abu Bakr, Ibn Abu Quhafah, al Taymi, and Aishad. All have their own account of the prophet Muhammad.
May God increase us all in knowledge.
The study of history and archaeology is fascinating and revealing. But what is discovered can contradict what we believe is true and thus conflicts arise. Same with the discovery of anything new that conflicts with what we thought was true or helpful. Like germ theory overcoming earlier beliefs. It collapses an entire belief system and stains all those who taught the previous theories which of course would cause them to violently resist those new ideas. They would call the new ideas controversial, would fight them, ridicule them but then students who had nothing at stake in the old ideas, and no mortgage to pay, and no reputation to defend, would accept the new ideas as self-evident and commonsensical.
Fred Donner, Sir you really enlighten. Thank you.
Very good analysis and impressive Arabic pronounciation. However, I think you put so much emphasis on the distinction between a believer and a muslim. In Arabic the two words may be used as synonyms sometimes, but according to a prophetic tradition, it has been explained that a Muslim's relation to God starts by becoming a Muslim, which essentially consists of obeying the commandments of the Five Pillars of Islam. Next comes "Iman", believing, which is the next step in a Muslim's approaching to God's favor. The concept consists of believing in the existence of God, his angels, his holy books, his prophets, the Latter Day and finally in the existence of fate. The last step is called "Ihsan" I don"t know how to translate this one to English, but I'll try to explain it here. Ihsan is the highest level of faith that a Muslim could strive for, it essentially means worshipping God as if one were sure that He sees their every move. The notion of Ihsan is a little troubeling because it challenges Muslims' belief in God's omnipresence. The perfect Muslim is supposed to remember God in each and every moment of thei lives, that's why if you ever get to meet a really devout Muslim you'd find them repeating mantras (oral prayers) specific to every action they make during the day. There are mantras for when you wake up, when you bath, before you eat, after you eat, while you eat in case you forgot to say it at the beginning, when you go out, when you come back home etc...
🙏🌺
It's good to be musl8
God Bless you
إحسان
Hardcore
Thank you. Can they say original mantras. ?
@@greenlimabean There are many examples. What I called mantras are generally prayers (Dua'a), but they need to be distinguished from the act of praying "Salat" which is ritual repeated at least 5 times a day by all Muslims.
The Dua'a prayers are memorized citations, the work like Christian prayers, I called them mantras because the word "prayer" has 2 different translations in Arabic.
Examples of these prayers or mantras are numerous. Before eating or drinking, one is supposed to say "Bismillah - In the Name of God". After eating Muslims are supposed to say "Alhamdulillah - Praise be to God".
When waking up, there are collections of prayers and mantras called "Azkaru Sabah - Citations of the Morning"that Muslims memorize and speak them to themselves every morning.
These are some minor examples.
As a Muslim, I find westerners historical view on Islam interesting, but flawed. The problem they have with dates us due to the pre Islamic Arabs not having a calendar. This improves after Hijra, because this is where the Islamic calendar begins. Also, when our tradition spoke of the Jews in Madinah, the western historians found this hard to believe, as they still have no idea where these Jews came from. And these western historians fail to understand that the early Muslims defeated the Persian empire and the Roman empire. This would be like a group to emerge from Wales, take over the UK and defeat to America and Russia!
Is any of that relevant to the video you are replying to? I assume you watched part or all of it? Feel free to criticize or disagree with the content of the video but I don't see what specific points you are making against THIS video.
Were there revelation transcripts from the beginning of Islam? Or were they vocally transmitted only?
While prophet was alive reveleations were being written down. After his death quran was brought together as a book by the first governer ebu Bekir.. Reveleations he got from God were told him orally by holy spirit Gabriel.
Bu iste bir is var how do you know? These first transcripts are lost are they not?
@@helenal3956 the oldest quran we have today was supposed to be written 50, 70 years after prophets death. But historical fact is verses written on Woods, leathers etc become A book by ebu Bekir Just after prophets death.. Arabic doesnt have vowels.. 3rd governer uttman added vowels to quran so that the words cant be mixed to another one. 3 copies were prepared. More copies delivered to other countries. Before writing down quran People Who memorised it came together and wrote it during ebu Bekir time. Some say..memorizing.. No mistakes?? 40 men Who memorized came together and wrote down.
@@helenal3956 czcams.com/video/NzCNh893FCk/video.html
www.oldest.org/religion/qurans/
Bu iste bir is var thank you
What are your sources?
EMS 76 after 4 minutes I concluded it’s crap talk not academic lecture.
@@RobespierreThePoof I looked up his name in my liebarry and all's I could find is about some party where it snowed and people ate each other.
Here are the sources czcams.com/channels/I42rxSfPRIyhgJQLcb3FGw.html
2 Timothy 3:7
This is more shocking czcams.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/video.html
Psalm 19:7
beautiful
Interesting. And, as Donner says, this interpretation of origins opens up interesting ecumenical vistas and possibilities of reinterpretation. Further to Donner's comments about "Muslims" (and "Islam") as distinct from "believers" ("Mu'minun") in the text of the Qur'an, I would just add that even the words "Muslim" and "Islam" are not exclusively employed in the Qur'an in the restricted sense these terms later came to acquire (that is, as believers for whom the Qur'an was the primary or uniquely unsuperseded revealed scripture). This is obvious when we consider that various pre-Qur'anic persons are referred to in the text as "Muslims". So, for instance, at one point, the disciples of Jesus say, "We are Mulims" - by which of course they are not understood to mean they are followers of a much later revelation, but simply "Muslims" in the primary lexical sense of "those who submit" [their will to that of God]. This is in fact entirely typical of the Qur'an; indeed, as far as I'm aware, there is really only one verse where "Islam" clearly refers exclusively to the specifically Qur'anic or Muhammadan dispensation of Islam ("al-yawma atmamtu lakum dinakum...").
so, even if you accept that Mohamed was a prophet, you still have the problems of others after him changing the meaning of the Koran later by what the so called "imams". Which are the only ones deemed worthy to tell you whats in them.
idarusskie an imam is the person who leads prayer in a mosque he also gives a lecture on fridays just like sunday lecture for chritians, every muslim can seek the meaning of the quran without needing the aprovel of imams, Muminun is another name for parcticing muslims, Quran contains facts that couldn't be known 100 years ago let alone 1400 years ago, so an illiterate man could not possiblity come up with even the powerful languge of quran let alone those facts.
I hear a lot of people stating conflicting opinions about history. I won't bother giving my understanding of history. Do your own study and homework. FIND the truth!
I only need 1 lead for my studies. When they expanded, the weapons they used, where was it made?
The history of Islam is very known..Islam isn't Judaism or Christianity ..all conspiracy theories are crazy and false
Ibn ishak wrote a biography of the prophet 100 hundred years later..ibn ishak were born 74 years after the prophet's death ..ibn ishak biography has a lot of hadith which is a sacred text
@James Wright haha a christian is talking ..You believe in Moses while there is no historical evidence he ever existed or that there were Israelites in Egypt..the existence of Jesus is also very doubtful and alot of historians believed he's a myth ..the oldest manuscripts of the 4 gospels you use is back to the 4th century..we have manuscripts of the Quran which is back very shortly after the prophet's death pbuh
@James Wright Don't talk about datable history and archaeology when you're Christian..that's very embarrassing for you
Thank you. I'm glad to get educated in this accessible way. to learn how the origins of islam were very different from what islam became later and is now.
A circuitous if well intentioned effort at a primer of the early days of Islam. Much more compelling and rigorous is the work of Jonathan Brown at Georgetown, who sharpens and challenges the increasingly obsolete methodology of looking at Islam and its history. Viewers would do well too springboard out of this video to Brown's work.
That's wouoldn't have been a very wise policy especially with urban areas.
Also, there are sources about battles won and the like and Prof.Donner's book has lists of tribes involved in those battles.
I met Fred Donner 13 years ago..I assure you that he is a great scholar..he speaks and reads Classical Arabic like no Arabist I have met...he knows his stuff.
@L B bullshit
His Arabic is so flawless
I like to know the truth .. but did you all realise he keep on mentioning beutiful picture painted about Muhammad and keep us wondering .. this is what we call careful structured .. to find what are the bad thing about Muhammad (pbuh).. as a scholar he should give example of both cases bad picture and good picture so people can make analysis ..
He said that prophet Mohammad has the Quran in a noise but actually the Quran was revealed to him in many ways including the Angel coming to him
If you read between the lines, and think carefully about the ends of the idea he is presenting, you would not be very happy about what he presents about Islam, is but my humble opinion.
What a great speaker with persuasive historical argumentations! I really enjoyed it. Thanks.
Thanks for translation to Arabic language
Beautiful talk and very interesting take on the subject.
Thanks for sharing this lecture.
I think Fred Donner he interpreted the word “believers” his own way, but I am wondering way to use an implicit interpretation While the definition of believers is stated clearly in the Quran itself in Chapter 2 verse 177 and 285.
Furthermore, there is a clear mix in understanding between the religious obligations to the muslims and the civil rights within the Society where it includes different believes.
Quranic definitions ? Professor talks about the times historic documents were scarse.. Do not use quran to proof quran. Observe independent sources and archaeology as professor does.
@Al Mudarabah I have no idea where the professor took the word Moameneen from. May be from sources beyond the quran?
Andre Voyt
The professor used many verses in Quran to define the word of believers or Moamneen... hence I replied accordingly... my comment was not a try to prove or disprove Quran ...
@Al Mudarabah If he used the quran as the only source he would be wrong.
You are influenced by hadeeth ( narrations that written 200 later). This is how most sunnies and shias came to fome : books like Bukhary and Al-kaffy.
The community of believers was the description of early followers of Mohammed and they were inclusive to Christianity and jewdaism, which is in sink with Quran but not Hadeeth.
Sound needs to be at least doubled.
The talk was surprisingly moderate and impartial, in comparison to the hateful, unintelligent comments here… (I really think CZcams shouldn't allow commentators below the age of, say, 22 ? ). I have only one remark to make. When he says Islam is a form of Monotheistic revival movement, in contra to the "traditional" understanding (ex : 28:00), that "traditional" view is only traditional in the Occident. It is only the traditional view of of what Europeans and Americans like to call the "West". Muslims have always seen Islam precisely as revival movement of the Abrahamic religions.
Why Islam? I like the answer of Paul Freedman from Yale: "Because it was easy for nomads, there was no clergy, all you need is a book and a prayer rug." (I paraphrased, please check it out for the full explanation)
A good analysis and presentation.
he is putting forward a thesis based on interpretations of early evidence.
That's what historians do, you know.
Or how did you think all that knowledge in history books came about if not through the same process.
Well, his thesis about "same God" and "only one set of equal believers" is dismantled by his very source.
Qur'an Sura 9:29 and 98:6 should be enough, but there is much, much more.
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=98&verse=6
@@ambassadorkees there are too many nonsense in this video.
@Azazel Nicholas fyi, what is left from jews in north Africa when they are praying in arabic they pray to Allah (i am speaking about small, routine prayers like may Allah help you or may Allah be with u etc.)
Also, in Egypt where 10% of the population is Christian, Christians also use the same prayers : may Allah help you and may Allah cure u etc.
I am Muslim, i dont agree with all this professor said, and i didnt like the last 2 min or so when he started speaking about what muslims should or shouldnt do ... but it was quite an interesting lecture and it actually opened my mind toward new interpretation of our own tradition.
Salam
@@sohaibelazzouzi6553 Allah is a Proper noun, the specific name of your God Allah, allah with the small a is a common arabic noun meaning god.. this is what egyptian Christians you say are referring to. early muslims necause they are arabic just used the term allah and made it the specific name for their(your) god. if they(Christians) used another language (not arabic) it would be clear they are praying to God and not Allah. this is basic.
This is more shocking czcams.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/video.html
this church that was recently excavated seems to fit the idea of the dhimmi status of Christians in that they were obligated to house and feed and show hospitality to Muslims. So not unusual that you would find a church like this.
Lol how did you come to that bs conclusion
The (or at least a few important) Arab vassal buffer-states/tribal-confederations (Ghassanids, Lakhmids, & so on) of the Greek and Iranian empires united behind the dynamic of a little Arabizing Judeo-Christian (oft called "Nazarene") messianic sect when the Byzantines and Sassanids had exhausted themselves, and expanded with added ease because most of the core Arabic empire was Semitic and otherwise Afro-Asiatic, so ethnically much closer to Arabs then to the Greeks and Iranians whose centuries' long domination they resented. Islam developed out of that, over decades and centuries, combining the initial Judeo-Christian sect material addressing the (probably mostly Monophysites, Nestorians, Docetists, Manicheans, Sabeans/Mandeans, and/or other heresies that had arisen against Orthodox Trinitarianism out of ethnic resentment against the Greek Byzantines in the first place, while Mazdeism was a nationalistic religion and did not proselytize in the first place) Arabs, and legitimating Arabic imperialism, suprematism, and parasitism, as well.
The Quran has a clear verse that is not subject to any scholarly review or interpretation regardless whether those who read it are Moderates, or extremists that defines the guidelines or framework for Muslims dealing with other non Muslims community. It says for those non Muslims who did not engage in military aggression ( picked arms to fight you), did not expell you from your homes, did not aid other in such aggression, you (the Muslims) must not only treat them with equity and fairness, but be extra kind. I used the word extra because Allah used a term called " Birr" in Arabic that term is heavily emphasized in how a person how to treat his or her parents. That verse is in chapter 60 verse 7. All others verses that spoke of harnessing the military efforts to be aggressive and do fight has a historical context to them. You ought to remember that Muslims during Muhammad's era were subjected to numerous attacks, at more than one occasion they nearly became extinct.
The doctrine of the trinity is not the same thing as "3 Gods". I have my own opinion on the trinity but even under traditional and fundamentalist Christian theology the doctrine of the trinity is not "3 Gods"
God has no partners. Or children. He is a above such things
the biggest problem with christianity is that it cuts out the need for god, this is only because the christian bible is witten by a satanic cult, search for the red shoe club, the christian church is designed to make you an unbeliever
3 gods sounds like tritheism which was a Christian heresy but not orthodox Christianity or the Melkites. Muslims don't understand the Quran. It gives very little context and abruptly changes subject without any warning.
If you study Islam it's easy to understand its success and rapid growth the key factors that contributed were
1. The authoritative nature helped rulers to keep an iron hand on their followers.
2. There was no way of opposing the religion which could mean the death penalty.
3. You cannot go out of Islam it's a shirk.
4. There was no room for debate in Islam, unlike other religions.
5. The disrespect to women in Islam also helped it to spread faster. Any ruler or rich person could have any number of wives and children.
6. The state was an army within, once a state was conquered it was easy to kill people of other faith and take over the state on religious sentiments.
7. Great examples of these could be seen in the modern world were in Islamic countries the no of minorities have sharply gone down over the years.
8. Islam is a very political religion.
You're a dumbass. Ignorants like you always have an answer which irregardless of how flawed it is you stick to it just because it originated as you chased a flawed belief
@@hygg1829 the way you speak itself shows your ignorance and disbelief. when people do not have anything on their side the best way is to curse others and kill them.
@@hygg1829 you are 1000 years behind so for you to understand History and modern-day science becomes very difficult. And I bet you cannot even refute any of my points.
@@MrBedmash says the guy who's probably a white nationalist
@@MrBedmash your points are already not backed by any proof. They are already refuted if you struggle to read Qur'an. But disbelievers like you probably search on google typing "ways to defeat muslims' arguments". If you would have read hadiths and Quran you wouldn't even make this stupid statement.
Interesting to see how initially islam expanded because there was an ambiguity but then once the muslim rulers started to build a working empire, they needed to build a well defined religion to hold it up. And that is when they drew clear cut lines between true muslims and Christians and Jews who, when already in muslim territories had to submit and became second class citizens, and not needed to be conquered with violence.
Not clear or descriptive enough, and also some very essential issues are skipped.
Well, if one wants to polish the tarnished shield of Islam, he has to be very vague and leave out links to any important sources. Taqiya level critical here. Makes me sick that there are people this dishonest in the world.
Excellent! One question: Donner mentions archaeological evidence of old churches featuring both an apse toward the East used for Christian worship, and a prayer niche in the South wall for Muslims to prayer toward their holy city. I wonder if Donner is familiar with Dan Gibson research that seems to show that the early believers did not pray to Mecca but with high degree of likelihood toward Petra. Gibson even proposes that Muhammad and the early believers started in Petra, not Mecca. I wonder what Donner thinks about Gibson’s research?
They are now finding that what is considered Mecca today is probably not the true site of Mecca
The quran and the hadiths says that he started at mecca, also it was 14 hundred years ago when they built these mosques if so as you say that there are some mosques werent pointing to Jerusalem then it would be because they didnt have that good geographicalism or anything like that, And some mosques acually point to Jerusalem but they also cross Petra and thats somehow irrelavent, another thing is acually the trading problem that people always point out, There are quit alot of proofs that exists in other places such as old Emirates cities or other cities that exists even further down to yemen or oman, But as we say that mecca was a holy place that guides tgousand sof people there which means it was a larg trading centre, also not to forget that his grave, mosque and his house were at mecca or madina also there is also nearly all the places that were mintioned about muhammad and where he is were in mecca or madina, Sorry of there is any gramatical or spelling mistakes english isnt my first language and thank you, Good bye ,salam!
wasnt aware of the fact that christians are monothiests , the idea of trinity as far as i am concerned charactarises polythiesm , 3 versions of god a father a son and the holy spirit , the son is jesus : god , the father is god , both are god . In addition prophet mohammad had his share of debates with both the jews and the christians in an attempt to get them to join islam , meaning there there were differences ,but I agree there was no pressure for them to change faith as theses religions
Generally his speech is very well and polite about islam , i don't agree with the believers point and how suddenly the muslims let the idea of believers . But i think in the beginning of the islamic message , the christian believes were completely different comparing to what it was in Abdulmalek's time , i don't want to say they had came non believers , but i think they kind of changed a basic things that is islam doesn't accept . The other thing is that islam is a thing and Iman (belief) is another thing as you know , Iman basically is believing in : 1 god 2 god's angels 3 god's books (torah,bible and quran ) 4 god's prophets 5 destiny ( whether good or bad ) 6 and the judgment day . Thanks so much for this lovely video
Jezus Moses Abraham David and Muhammad all are 1 that called apon Allah, Islam is continuing, quran hasn't changed its the final message from God to the sons of Adam.
I liked it. Thank you, Fred.
I went to college at a less rigorous place than The University of Chicago (Yale). I'm not sure I could have got thru even though I was accepted in 1964. I have watched greatly impressed the CZcams videos of your head of the writing program, Larry McEnerney. Is the present gentleman the same or a differnt person? They look the same on the video. Their gestures are the same. Their voices are the same. Two most impressive figures. I know this is not "relevant". But even though I am not part of your community, I have devoted my life to "the life of the mind" (I never set foot in the Yale Bowl). I studyed with a professor from a school at least geographically near you although perhaps ideologically different, who came to Yale from Northwestern, John Wild.
Prophet Muhammad came after all the other prophets, Adam, Noah, Abrahim,Moses, Jesus, etc..but the way this historian speaks about him is as though this is the first time in history he heard God sent a revelation to his messengers.
Only ten years later since this lecture, we do have rock inscription from the times of prophet's companions, and Fred Donner's own student Prof. Sean Anthony discovered a biography of the Prophet written by his nephew, Urwa ibn Zubair. We are optimistic finding more!
can you send me the sources of the rock inscriptions and the found Biography? I seem to misplace this news on the web
that's bs
Didn't find about any such discovery online. Your sources?
All of you still asking source? I've found it, it's come from their hole when they do bowing between their prayers.
@@sarahprincess1045 The medinan museum in arabic displays such findings, as it is arabic, you will hardly find english news on it