Thaumavore: A Conversation with Dave
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 08. 2023
- Become a VIP supporter of the Broken Empires RPG Kickstarter! play.thebrokenempires.com
I'm now on Buy Me A Coffee!: www.buymeacoffee.com/MeMyselfA...
NEW! Subscribe to the MM&D Newsletter: www.memyselfanddie.com/newsle...
I have a great discussion with CZcams reviewer Dave Thaumavore about all things RPG!
Subscribe to him at / davethaumavore
Please Like and Subscribe to the channel! Visit us at www.memyselfanddie.com
If you want to support the channel become a Patron! / memyselfanddie
Join the MM&D channel to get access to perks: / @memyselfanddierpg
Purchasing items from DrivethruRPG using the links below is a great way to help out:
Dragonbane: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Fantasy Trip Legacy Edition: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Against the Darkmaster: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables - Science Fiction: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables - Science Fiction 2: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Mongoose’s Traveller 2nd Edition: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Perilous Wilds: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Marching Order: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Master of the Onyx Tower: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Against the Darkmaster: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Dominion Rules: dominionrules.org/
Maze Rats: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Mythic GM Emulator 2E: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Mythic Location Crafter: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Mythic Magazine Vol 3: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Mythic Variations: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
UNE the Universal NPC Emulator: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer’s Edition: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Ironsworn: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Ironsworn Delve: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Vikings of Legend: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Great Book of Random Tables: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables 2: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables 3: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables 4: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Book of Random Tables 5: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
GM’s Miscellany Urban Dressing: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
GM’s Miscellany Urban Dressing II: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
GM’s Miscellany Wilderness Dressing: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
GM’s Miscellany Dungeon Dressing: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
The Tome of Adventure Design: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Special thanks to James Arnold Taylor and Gabor Vida - Zábava
This was so fun, Trevor! Thanks for this.
Back at ya boss!
Wow! That really was an awesome dialogue! Fascinating social psychological analysis of the rpg cultures of today. Thank you!
Even though it's not Dave's thing I really appreciate your takes on OSE and especially your interviews with Ben Milton (Questingbeast) and Gavin Norman (OSE, Dolmenwood). Your reviews are always a great watch even though I'm often not that into actually playing many of those games.
Trevor, you've opened up new worlds for me in the solo and through that GM'less or low prep gaming while being entertaining as heck in your solo plays. Also I love the Sage's Library!
I'm a (relatively) old D&Der and that's where my heart lies to this day but I play with people who prefer RuleMonster, Rune Quest and such and I've dabbled in a good number of systems. I've also in recent years suffered from the issue of players wanting to stick to 5e to which my love affair is over. 😅 Now I could just live in Dolmenwood and would love to hear both your thoughts on it in video format. Maybe also as a solo setting as well as Trevor's takes on traveling and survival mechanics.
Some excellent insights. Thanks both.
Me Myself and Die is close to watching a TV drama.
I think dave switching to a wine taster style of reviewing style is a great idea. I hope he finds a group for that :)
Jokes on you, I'm the wine taster who DOES get trashed. Which means, in the framing of this metaphor, I dive right in, fall in love, and add a hobby number 27 to my endless list of hobbies competing for my time. 😅
I think your opinion on “why would you ever watch ttrpg” and making MM&D so fast paced is why I love your channel, so I’m glad you have those opinion, I can’t stand how long winded live play feels , even by the professional groups
Spectating or build experimentation is the new norm. It is the mental exercise/thought experimental escape that modern introverts get enjoyment out of, and we have an alarming ever increasing population of introverts. (Due to being bombarded for our attention by society constantly?) I would have scoffed previously, when younger generations can't place an order at a counter or talk on a phone due to anxiety, let alone play a social game in person. But now that I have developed my own phobias, I can relate. I now seek enjoyment reading new rules/mechanics, designing my own games and characters, for things I probably will never play, and watching others do what I only wish I could. Main reason I found and follow Me, Myself and Die - to learn to be able to actually 'play' again, admittedly solo. My suspicion is that RPGs will either go more console / video game based (future of D&D) and / or Solo. As mentioned in the interview, the world is vying for our attention every minute of the day, so to escape I think the hobby is going to head toward either of those approaches, and will (my guess) be the end of the in-person game in the next 20-25 years (next generation). Great discussion, topics, and interview!
Dave is the one who enlightens us about old and new games and Trevor is the one who inspires us to try to be as enthusiastic at the table as he is.
Mild push-back in defense of those of us who 'just watch':
There are tons of other reasons that I'm sure other commenters will mention, but a huge part of it for me is that I find the types of stories that come out of (good/decent) RPG sessions to be compelling in a way that other media often just "isn't" for me . Even with all the umms, ahhs, and rough edges, this kind of organic/emergent storytellying is quite often more interesting to me than some book or TV show where I can pretty much guess how things are going to work out based on the premise alone.
In 'normal' media the heroes only fail or have setbacks if the plot requires those things to happen, and as a result it's really hard to create meaningful tension or stakes when we all know in the backs of our minds that "no matter what happens, it's going to happen the way the author wants it to." That risk of failure and 'capacity to make the wrong decision' is interesting in and of itself.
Watching or listening to a RPG session is one of the only forms of media/entertainment I can think of where I 'genuinely' don't know what's going to happen next. It's the only way to experience a story where the characters in rhe story 'genuinley' have their own motivations and autonomy (as opposed to being puppets pulled by the author's strings). Even if those characters aren't as polished or well acted as they might be in a book or movie, that agency provides an experience to the audience that can't be replicated by something scripted.
I personally don't actually play 'for real' at this point for a variety of practical/motivational reasons (time, family commitments, lack of interested friends, competing hobbies, etc.), but I feel like even if I did I would still watch/listen to other compaigns for entertainment since the format scratches an itch that other fiction just doesn't satisfy.
I actually agree with you completely. Well said.
This is exactly why I loved Me Myself and Die season 1-3. There was so much uncertainty. It's not guaranteed that the main characters will make it. There is so much improvisation and it is so refreshing.
Yeah I 100% agree with this statement. Any think you watch on tv is the same redundant concepts there isn’t much of a “what if feel” any more I feel like media of all types follow the same tropes. Now yeah it does make money but meh we need new and exciting or random. Imagine if modern media used mythic gm emulators to make shows and used npc generators to make characters that may play a role or may just be there for a laugh a motivation or something else. Now yeah it could get chaotic if there is no control but any good writer should understand the pillars of story telling. Pre made characters with pre made ends is out of date imo it’s time for new stuff. I too love season 1-3 because it feels good to be surprised. it adds a depth of true random situations and not artificially so it feel authentic.
On another note as for the interview I feel like it was a little bias and maybe emotionally charged with a pre determined view. Over all felt more like a frustration expression session then informative on what your guests does. But the organic movement of the conversation was really fluid but I feel like y’all got stuck on the annoying bits of one game lol but it’s okay. Hopefully you don’t get upset by this comment. Trevor I enjoy your content and I’ll be checking out your guest!!!
Looked into Free League because of Trevor and bought the One Ring books because of Dave 😊. Great video. Cheers 🍻
Yes! It can get addictive 😅
@@paavohirn3728 :). Certainly a few more on my wish list.
I bought most of my RPG books because of Dave’s channel. He does really great reviews!
Great interview! Thanks to both of you!
I found it hilarious that you - with your nearly 25,000 subscribers - could still think that you could go to Gencon and no one would know you. My friend, you are one of the gold standards for solo RPG actual plays, and on nearly every forum I've found, as soon as someone asks "how do you even solo RPG?", invariably someone will almost instantly reply with "Go watch Me, Myself, and Die". I know I've said it to a few people myself. You're a rock star in this arena :)
You're also not alone in your distain for D&D either. I've got well over 100 RPGs in my collection, and not a single one of them is D&D (or Pathfinder, or any other D&D clone). The only reason I have any D20 books in my collection at all these days is because I helped write them :)
There are so many other games that give a more fulfilling gaming experience, and it deeply saddens me that people never go beyond D&D, or that it's so hard to find any other RPG in most stores.
So my thanks to both of you for helping promote the alternatives!
Yup, I've sent several friends to Me, Myself, and Die and to Bad Spot to explain what Ironsworn is all about and how to play it solo.
For me, listening/watching people play RPGs, videocast or podcast, is that I can absorb how people play, sometimes rules quirks away from the table. Other times it's nice to have the chatter to fill the air when I'm at work (at home) and feeling like I'm alone. It fills the air.
This, 100%. I don’t play RPGs enough due to game groups and life schedules, but man I love learning and reading and listening about them, especially all things not DnD or Pathfinder.
Hey Phil! It’s skittle bomb excited to get some game time with you this weekend 😂
I don't regularly watch actual plays and I much prefer the smaller channels and plays that resemble home games more. A good actual play is a nice relaxing listen for example when going to sleep.
I'm currently watching/listening to the channel Twenty Sides to Every Story running a game in Dolmenwood, my favorite setting of all time (insert Kickstarter promo). Super fun and exciting! The world is so rich and imaginative while giving the DM what they need to weave their emergent stories with their players. Great DM and players as well.
@@paavohirn3728 I'm binging through Astronomica a Stars Without Number actual play where they record in an RV. There's a few others. Ask the Oracle is a good one too
I had to pause to give my two cents here. I want to run an open game for my players, and in fact, I've tried. Plenty of plot seeds and options pouring out of my ears. My players haven't enjoyed that though. They want me to come up with something, point them in a direction, and let them use their cool abilities. They don't want to put in the effort, they just want to be entertained and be murder hobos. So, there are groups and players like that. I think I've found them all.
I hear you. Group dynamics, for better or worse, pretty much determine how everything in a game is going to go.
@@MeMyselfandDieRPG too true! I love my players and I'm glad they have fun. Papa's gotta get some love too. 😂
Wow! Two of my very favorite youtubers at the same time! 🙂 And as far as 5E goes, if that's all that existed in RPG'g I wouldn't be roleplaying at all.
So here's the thing regarding spectating people playing video games/tabletop rpgs that made it click for me: It's analogous to spectating sports, chess, dancing, cooking or even mukbanger content; not even at a professional level. It's seeing how different people perform the tasks. It's watching those moments of shared glory or defeat. It's also a bit of living vicariously. The active participants in those activities often have that same mindset of "why watch when you can DO?" But there will always simply be those (regardless of content) who would rather watch and learn than participate.
Kill your darlings is so important. I wrote a 5-paragraph house rule on falling damage i was quite proud of, looked at OSE, & rewrote the rule to “1d6 hp per 5 ft. Save vs half the height or be reduced to zero hp.”
Now this is the crossover that i have been waiting for! I hope you can really get the trying-out-games thing started, Mr. Devall, Dave! Good luck!
Two of my favorite creators! I'll give a close watch this evening.
I don't get the misunderstanding of what people watching a show get out of it. That's like saying you don't understand why anyone would read a book or watch a basketball game, instead of just writing a story themselves, or shooting hoops themselves.
And the community part is really the key! The experience of having a lot of people enjoying the same thing together with you, sharing that joy with you. And those communities spill to spaces which enable more personal communication - Facebook groups, discord servers, local groups meeting in person, con attendees. Those few hours when the show is streaming is a catalyst, that's not the whole point of watching.
Some of my closest friends are a group of people who posted on a local LFG group about needing a DM to run a campaign in Tal'Dorei (Critical Role setting). It's been like 5 years now? The campaign is still going and I genuinely love these nerds I'm playing with.
I enjoy playing, but I also really enjoy watching live play. To me it’s not really any different from watching sports. They are two different hobbies really.
Clearly, you’re not the only one who feels that way! 😊
Yup, for me DnD was great that it opened the door for me into the new hobby of gaming. But as soon as we actually sat down to play DnD (old original DnD) we were looking to play something else because DnD just didn't click the boxes for me and most I ran into in Southern California in the late 1970's. RuneQuest, Traveller and other rpgs quickly became the main games for us. I'd play in AD&D 1st edition games if there was nothing else going on but I never wanted to run it after I found other options.
I don't really get into watching either. If I watch an actual play it's to check out game mechanics I've never experienced in some system. Same thing goes for in a game shop, I'll sometimes quietly sit down and watch to get a feel for some games mechanics and play. Not being able to get the players to read the rules, is about as old as the hobby, it's been an ongoing issue for as long as I've been gaming. Drives me nuts.
I love watching TTRPG shows for the emergent story & potential!
Right, me too. And its thrilling, cause no one knows which direction it goes.
Wow cool! Both of you are awesome people and create great content. Thanks for getting together for this.
Great talk! Just waiting for you guys to stream this one-shot so we can take part in it!
24:14 In the rules of Burning Wheel, they very explicitly stated that the optional rules shouldn't be used at first and only sparingly. 😮
Yes. That’s Luke’s way of getting around his own mechanics ;)
@@MeMyselfandDieRPG
Burning Wheel is like GURPs in some ways, you don't want to use all the mechanics that are there. The GM has to use their discretion when it is appropriate to use the more modular aspects of the game.
Oh, I'm aware, believe me. czcams.com/video/56IbXfDzNuQ/video.html
You're a saint
We do the 'Once around the bookshelf'. We find a game that's on our shelf, make characters, do some combat, skills, powers, etc and see if that even warrants a short campaign. Then play a short campaign of 4-6 sessions.
If we don't like it, it goes on the 'consider to sell' pile. Some have been rescued from the sell pile, but it's rare.
You two would make an excellent podcast. Just saying
The two of you are HUGE influences in my own RPG content creating adventures. My friends and I started DMs After Dark to highlight lots of smaller press games and just hit our 2 year anniversary of doing short series of these games to provide some example of play to anyone who might search for it, but we've barely scratched the surface of our collective collection. I am always tuning in to see what games have found their way into your piles, all while chipping away at playing all of the ones I keep getting, too! Keep up the great work :D
I reallly enjoyed this interview with Dave, who does a ton of great RPG reviews. Your energy was amazing as always Trevor.
I mainly run my campaigns on virtual tabletops (Foundry mostly) these days, because for me it has tons of advantages:
- I get to play with exactly the players I want who are spread all across Europe / the world in my case
- I get to play / run games more often because scheduling is easier
- I get to focus on developing the story together with the players because the virtual tabletop takes care of all the rolls, modifiers etc.
For me, the only real downsides of virtual tabletops are:
- Game preparation can take longer than for in person sessions
- It definitely has a different feel to an in person session and sometimes it can be more difficult to create an atmosphere
So, for me, the advent of virtual tabletops has been a real god-send. I think, I've never played more tabletop RPGs before. During the pandemic I had like six active campaigns every week and I got to play a whole range of different systems (D&D, Pathfinder, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Cthulhu, Tales from the Loop, Alien, Blade Runner, Warhammer).
As for watching Actual Plays - It's usually something great to watch in the background and to inspire you as a Gamemaster. I sometimes watch Actual Plays of adventures I want to run to see how it could turn out at the game table.
Men after my own heart ☺
Ah, man. To look up at the clouds from the choked-up streets of Beginner-ville. Just gotta keep my nose to the grindstone, I suppose.
This is the first time I've ever seen Dave without his signature hat and eyeglasses. I wouldn't have recognized him in passing!
Great points! My Foundry Pf2e game gives us much more roleplaying time. For us, its a virtual character sheet and convenient battlemap. We've been playing virtually for over 10 years and Foundry is a godsend. I run a 100% improv GM-emulator game which I think would be far more difficult without the VTT. It allows my players absolute freedom and exploration of the world.
Great discussion! Two of my favorite RPG reviewers on one video. 😊💯
I have been viewing your videos for a year or so, Trevor, and find them to be of such great quality. Much gratitude for your efforts (along those of many other like-minded youtubers, like Dave and Professor Dungeon Master). You've pulled another fantastic video out of your hat; this was such a thoughtful exchange. One comment which really resonated on a personal level was the one around 'nostalgia'. Videos like yours help feed that nostalgia for those poor souls who are, for whatever reason, unable to indulge in their 35-year old hobby (I am dating myself a bit by making this comment, but feel I am in good company, so it's probably ok!). So again, thank you for putting out such great content for the community.
When a chat gets too big, that connection for me largely goes away, but for RPGs I've mostly just watched recordings. I watched your Blade Runner series and loved it. The online RPG stuff now is a lot more accessible, but I guess setting up a session with people, even if they're all willing to show up on time, there's still a cost there, maybe because with RPGs there's a bigger footprint than multiplayer videogaming. It's more active. It's why I love playing but it's also a bit more of a production somehow. It's not the same watching others play, but sometimes it's what I can do most easily. I'm also rather picky about what I do watch in that format, it tends to be me interested in a game and how it's run. If the people and format aren't grating I can follow it through, but I've really only done it with a few games (your Blade Runner, solo sessions, and a few others' sessions). I can't speak for everybody but as someone who's played and run games on and off for decades it's sort of where I've ended up for now. Hopefully I'll have more opportunities to play in the future.
Dave Thaumavore is my favorite TTRPG CZcamsr. There's no match for his content when it comes to quality and consistency in his reviews.
I love to watch campaigns because:
- I can't work, so I don't have much to do all day and even at times where I play in four different groups every week, I still have SO MUCH time
- I can see how other systems work without having to spend much time reading the rules, so it's a way more fun way to see if I like a system or not
- even if I wanted to play more, I couldn't, I can't get into that many characters "at once"
- I get to know lots of different DM styles and therefore can better decide how I want to DM
- it's a fun way to pass the time while I'm drawing maps for my own world or anything similar that doesn't really require that much thinking
Great inverview! Foundry VTT is more of a necessity than a choice since my group is all remote. I'm a pretty visual person so like to add all the detailed maps and weather effects, but I can totally see how it feels more like a video game than sitting around the table with friends. That said, I like what Dave said about it being a "time saver" because it is. Because everything else is taken care of for the most part, I find combat flows much quicker than someone manually rolling dice and doing math. I do miss rolling physical dice though.
More than anything, what is lost with online play is the energy of sitting next to a group of people.
I think there have always been people whose play style was mainly watching. They’re just there to hang out. And in the old days that meant participating, but today it doesn’t have to mean that. I was a forever DM & am now considering getting back in, but I’ve watched hundreds of hours of board game actual plays & hundreds of hours of RPG reviews & tips & enjoyed it greatly.
What an amazing discussion between two of my favorite content creators. Well done, gents.
I love Dave's channel. I'm one of those poor schmoes whose group doesn't want to play anything else. I should look for a group online, but I'm not great at meeting people.
I don't watch a lot of gaming streams anymore, but when I do, it's now just for entertainment. I've found that it's not a good medium for me to get the feel for a game I might want to try.
My rpg library is deeply informed by Thaumavore reviews, don't know if he's saved or cost me more money, but grateful either way. We should also throw out there he has written a tight little rpg called "Fluxfall Horizon", with a Quantum Leap/ Sliders sort of precept, and a solid example of getting a high game to rule ratio. Definitely worth a gander.
MM&D, you are not old. I am almost 60. You are not old. Lol😊
Call it "Discovering the Narrative" instead of telling the story.
That’s pretty good.
I learned D&D 5e way back when DDB was new and barely usable (unlike today when it's the gold standard for digital character sheets) and as a result (and because of the type of person I am) I found myself learning the ins and outs of the system thoroughly. If this is how that works, how does it apply to that other thing. And because I know those two things, I can build this other thing way better. People that learn the game solely through VTTs just don't get that same level of system mastery (exceptions do exist, but those are the hardcore nerds that will read the source books anyway etc). I'm glad I learned the way I did but at the same time, some of my best players fall in that other camp....
Also, I think that playing on VTTs is different to in person games, but it can be as much fun. Different, but still worthwhile. When I DM online games I use the VTTs only as much as I need. Yes they can automate everything, but I don't do any of that. Maps, Tokens, Dynamic Lighting. Keep it simple as they say.
Interesting to see the insights from Thaumavore on online gaming and what people get from it. Great interview overall.
A really fascinating discussion. You guys mirrored my own thoughts on several topics. I can't grasp the enjoyment of watching other people play a game. I've tried watching Critical Role but my attention wavers after a few minutes.
Hey Trevor, it's nice to see you noticed that the Dominion rules slowed the game down. I think season 3 of MMnD is my favorite season, but there were times that I started zoning out because of the combat rules.
I don't know which system you are planning on using for next season, but I do highly recommend looking at Savage Worlds: Adventure Edition's Quick Encounter rules even if you use a completely different system. In many of my games, I'll often run a series of Quick Encounters to add some minor speed bumps for the players instead of pulling out the battle mat. It saves a ton of time. Also, I give the players more narrative control when they roll high on a Quick Encounter. It lets the character do some cool high action movie feats that they might not normally get to do when in normal combat. In a Savage Worlds Star Wars game, my Jedi player rolled super high on a Quick Encounter. He got an awesome Darth Vader Rogue One type scene where he mowed through space pirates.
Nobody can play when I can. I live on the west coast. I get home eat & I am ready to play at maybe 7 pm pst during the week. And on weekend after 2 pm pst. I have a hell of the time to play the kind of games I enjoy.
Dave's channel is great. Your channel is great. This video is great squared.
I am one of the developers on Free League's systems/modules on Foundry (there's not just one, but many of us). What you are talking about is colloquially known as "automation", and an implementation of a game in a vtt may have as little or as much of it as the author(s) feel like. I, personally, dislike automation (in most cases, wfrp4e not included). But a lot of the people on Foundry come to expect it, and some games like PF2e (WFRP4e, and T2K) do warrant it, I would never sit down and play these games at a table because I'd spend 5 minutes actually exploring a narrative, and 2 hours figuring out rules which I can't be bothered to remember between sessions (I play a ton of roleplaying games, currently Stonetop, Legend in the Mist, WFRP4e, Dragonbane, Forbidden Lands, and a game I am making myself).
I think you both are wrong on the number of people wanting automation. There are a lot of them (and they are relatively young). Beyond that VTTs really just facilitate play. I know maybe 5 people in the vicinity who play ttrpgs and none of them got time. I play pretty much all my games online because there aren't anyone where I live who has time and do (and I think this goes for a large part of online ttrpg players). It's just easier. Personally, I do wish I could play more in person.
Good episode. I can't speak and use a speech device. I started a new 5e game with brand new players. I set NPC's and organizations in motion. New city 3 new plots in motion. They plots will interact with the players at some point and their response will decide where it goes from there.
Way back when (more than 20 years ago) I used to watch some friends play RPGs. One of them was a big collector, so they were always playing all sorts of games while with different people I would play basically D&D and a bit of GURPS. They wanted me to play but I wouldn't because, well, first, it was a big table, but also because I was super shy and didn't want to "play wrong". But after a while I started playing with them for real and it was pretty great, a much different experience than what I had with that other group. Both were fun, though, in their own ways. But anyways, I watched because I was curious about all of these other systems, so I wanted to learn a bit about them, and maybe bring some of that over to that other table.
These days I sometimes watch people play to try and get the gist of that game. But I don't follow any channels that solely do that because watching 4+ hour play sessions is a huge commitment.
22:58 - Dave has a video on The Burning Wheel. It's how I found his channel, actually.
Great interview! I look forward to more of these!
I was stationed in Texas in the army and the entire time I was there, not a single person said howdy to me. Now I say howdy as a joke to myself.
I often run videos while painting miniatures or crafting terrain. It's less about watching and more about listening - so some content supports that better than others.
I’d say that both points of “most people play one system” and “most people watch but don’t play” are due to the fact that ttrpgs are simply not accesible to play. For most folk, it’s a really abstract thing to imagine. Not to mention the amount of work the game master needs to put in. I say this as someone who loves collecting ttrpg books and fantasizes of playing them all, but finds it really hard to actually get them to the table :(
I wish they were more like board games sometimes, since those hit the table often due to accessibility.
Haha just saw that you hit these pints later in the video!
Very cool interview! Maks more of them!
Awesome!
37:37 I'd be totally available for this. Honestly it's how my player and I have been exploring all the games I keep finding. DT is totally on tack when he commented how there's just so much chaff. It's like when cafe's became the rage in California. So many shops opened up and maybe one or two a city were actually worth the drive. I'm not counting SB or JC either.
One thing I'll say for watching something like your channel is that it is fun to see these stories unfold while I unwind from a day at work. I don't have to worry about my character and the choices I'm making, but I get some of the fun of seeing a story develop. It is also interesting to see new game systems and how someone else interacts with them. I snagged 5 Parsecs about half-way through watching your episodes because it looked so fun! Meanwhile, it's interesting to see you enjoying Savage Worlds when I bounced off it a few years back. (Poor Simon, I hope the guy's luck improves at some point!)
Lovely interview
The real answer is that there are no automated processes that can fill the void of what we do in our sessions. It's just not there yet. If y'all need an example, let me know!
Finding a group to try out different games regularly is a big dream of mine. I have lots of free time and way too many unplayed games, but my regular group isn’t as flexible as I am. If you need another player for one shots….
Come to think of it, I floated the idea to my group to start a ttrpg book club a few times. We pick a game, pick a date a few weeks later, and everyone reads the rules before we get together to build characters and run a quick game. Just so we can experience all those cool games we keep buying. Never happened, of course. But it’s the dream.
@@MrNachylI recommend this approach! Two of my groups do exactly that. In the first one so far we have played Ironsworn Starforged, Agon, Have You Heard About The Beast, and we're now finishing a campaign of Blades in the Dark. After that we have Mothership planned, I also want to run a Monster of the Week adventure, and later maybe try Into the Odd and Brindlewood Bay.
In the second group we played Deadlands, Numenera, Earthdawn, Alien, and we're just starting a Fallout campaign using homebrewed Savage Worlds system.
@@dziooooo yeah that’s what we’re doing right now; play a game for a campaign and rotate around. I’d like to do it more like the whine testing though. Pick a game, play it once or twice to see what it’s about, and move on to one of the 100000 games waiting to be played.
This was amazingly in depth. Really got down deep in the zeitgeist in only 42 minutes. Wow.
Also, I'd love to try a different system each month. Pick me! Pick me!
New term - Story Follower
Playing the game RAW, at least at first, is a requirement. I spent a long time trying to to decide on an initiative system to replace the card-based initiative in Savage Worlds, when I bought it all those years ago. I just ended up using card-based initiative and after the first game, I became a convert to their initiative system. It works and it works well.
I had much the same experience.
Great vid guys, some good banter and lots of insights here!
I think for me, the lightest game I've ever played is Microlite20, or Microlite2020 Complete.
I feel ya! We started out n High Fantasy and Traveller. moved to the TSR games and took a 40 year hiatus. Started back with 5e and rapidly moved on to other games. so many to run with
12:50.
I've given up completely on online play, at least with random groups. I've attempted for over 2 & half years and had nothing but bad experience. At this point spectating is my only opinion as no one in my circle is Truly interested in investing them selves into thw hobby even just for a one shot. Ill get friends who say they are interested but they won't discuss it any further. It really bums me, i just wanna play RPG's man and discover th narrative with great people.
I find that you both offer great and complimentary perspectives on games that I don't know about and might be interested in, that has led me to making purchases.
Role Tasting Game? Role Sampling Game? BuffeRP? Role you can eat?
Burning Wheel defender here. I think Luke was probably referring to either going into the Fight mechanics or simple versus - which is in the rules. And Luke home campaign is Burning Wheel. Guys - I’d love to run BW for you. I’m not a famous CZcamsr but have been playing for years and it’s great.
very sounded arguments … thank you !!
A lot of people in the hobby make assumptions about the whole hobby based on the first thing they learned. And that first thing is more often than not D&D, whether we like it or not. Which means their frame of reference for mastering a new ruleset is their experience of a game with somewhat complex rules that takes a long time to fully master and even experienced players have to go back and check things regularly. It doesn't compute that it might actually be a very different animal and that you can fully comprehend another game in an hour.
In terms of FoundryVTT I tend to use the character sheets and combat grid but, rolls I prefer to be physical dice. Some of the automation takes the fun out of RPGs for me
Loved your discussion. A lot of interesting analysis of the hobby. I'm like Trevor. I've been playing rpgs since the 80s. So, I don't get watching other people play. Dave had some helpful insights. I produce RPG content, and I'm always trying to figure out younger players and the future of the hobby.
My group is in different time zones so we do rpg in foundry for years
I agree with Trevor on the table top streaming thing. I can't stand how long it takes for the story to develop, all the unnecessary dialog and roleplay that goes nowhere. I have other things to do, other videos to watch. 3h of TTRPG? Hell no. 30m is enough.
Really liked this chat..as a GM I've been battling how I've been playing online, I tried to get back to the tebel with no luck, so I'm trying some sun su tactics and going on line but keeping it as tactile as possible , rules light and filling that in with heavy imagination and coop play, living under the rule.. if it was a blast? we did it right!! I liked the taping into a 'soul's game play comment.. great thoughts. 😂
Cool interview..... I love seeing you guys agree on quite a few things here... good stuff. And yes, Trevor, we're all Conflict Designers, as you say, not Storytellers! :)
I agree about RPGs being rules heavy but I don’t think the industry has mastered the introduction to games. Just like video games and some board games they could introduce the rules gradually in a phased way. That’s exactly what you do with the featureless grey plane and it is possible to start with the basics and each scenario add in more complexity with new rules. Most RPG manuals are reference books but if they were rewritten in a solo adventure book style then they could draw the player in.
Both of you are new content creator of TTRPG that I found recently. All of my life game WAS always be video game, and some board games. I only found out about this scene after one of my favorite CZcamsr played World of Darkness on her channel. And the I found out about Dungeons and Dragons and thought, "hey I know this title. It's from video game!" And hoo boy how wrong I am! Nowadays I don't play video games that much anymore and spend most time playing solo RPG and one campaign of D&D with one online group (y'know, family and work stuff). But some lifestyle from the time I played lots of video games got carried over, which is watching other people play games and reviewing them. There is a cathartic feel watching people play games, witnessing their struggle and finally succeeding in beating the game, in this case forming a coherent story from roleplaying. It's like watching a movie, for the lack of example.
Also, you mentioned that GM is not a storyteller and I agree. But after it's recorded, all the characters on the screen, be it GM or players, are telling a story for the consumer (watchers) to consume. And when I watch or listen to this playthrough, I'm looking for these stories. You won't know how many times I replayed all 3 of your campaigns over and over again, just because I am engaged to listen to the story the past you were telling through the screen of my phone.
Anyway, you inspired my style of playing solo RPG and how I record and tell all the results of the dice rolls to everyone who want to listen or read through. If it's not for your channel, I won't think of reviving my channel and uploading new contents. Thanks!
Thank you!
Great talk fellas! I would just say for foundry and other vtts like it. It's only as complex as you want it to be. The architect of foundry actually doesn't (I believe) use many of the modules that lead to all that automation.
Great one guys
Great!
I have been watching because I am not techy. So roll20 feels awkward. I work 50+ a week. Groups won't work for me. I have dyslexia, so I don't enjoy reading. I am not big on tv. Audible and your channel are my relaxation and entertainment.
Regarding the whole Foundry thing: after some of your featureless-grey-plane videos combined with a video by a solo roleplayer who hates Mythic, I ended up thinking to myself, "hmm, people seem to enjoy combat stuff, maybe I should try more combat-focused solo." (I generally kind of ignore that.) So I ended up picking up RUNE, a game focused on fast-paced tactical combat on a little grid. And it was pretty fun! But something I found odd was, everything RUNE is doing could be a video game. The enemies have an AI, the damage and abilities could all be automated, and movement from one map location to another is strictly rule-based too. But I don't think anyone would find that game very interesting, even with some graphics. It's doing everything yourself that makes it engaging.
And I don't think that's an age thing.
“It’s doing everything yourself, that makes it engaging”. Couldn’t have said it better myself 😊
I guess the thing to think about with this weird spectator culture is not so much that RPG's are hard, but that watching them is really easy. People do it while cooking dinner, people can do it in ten minute blips and pause it when something comes up.
I think you ceded a little ground you didn't have to on the storytelling topic. It's true that your needs for the channel are different than normal play; but as you've said before, even for the channel you want to be surprised.
Man I wanna play through different games like your describing near the end lol!!
I like it when all the CZcamsrs I watch do crossover videos lol. I probably walked past a bunch a people that I watch CZcams at Gen Con lol. I enjoyed trying to run into people I’ve made friends with over the years in our fun hobby
I am an avid consumer of actual play streams, I play video games, and I run 2 tabletop games - one in Foundry online and one in person on (big) graph paper at my house with sharpies. Is it so hard to imagine that there might be a lot of people like me out there who consume RPGs in all of these forms? I've been playing both tabletop and computer RPGs since 1983, and I love actual play series' like Critical Role. I also love RPG podcasts. And I also play a ton of Gloomhaven. There's room for all these things in the hobby. And the notion that the people who watch actual play streams aren't "real gamers", or that they are people who don't play tabletop RPGs seems like a weird form of insecure hobby policing to me. The same is true for the idea that people who love Baldur's Gate 3 are not "learning the rules" or "don't like to read". These are definitely old person prejudices.
No one here suggested that.
@@MeMyselfandDieRPG Sounds like exactly what was said to me. Although I'm happy to have it clarified for me. The "real gamers" part was only implied, of course. What was directly stated is that people who watch actual play streams don't actually play tabletop RPGs. Which is a kind of dog whistle for "not real gamers".
Respectfully, I think you’re projecting something onto this conversation that doesn’t exist. What you describe is not at all what I said, nor what I meant.
@@MeMyselfandDieRPG I'm not projecting at all. I'm interpreting. And when you guys suggested that people who watch actual play streams don't play RPGs, you were, respectfully, incorrect. You also came across as dismissive of people who watch actual play streams. I'm not projecting that. That was what was said. That was how you sounded. Now, if you regret that now or didn't intend to sound that way, I understand. But I am not imaginging that you said what you said or sounded how you sounded.
You should also be aware that claiming that some portion of the gaming community "doesn't actually play the games" is a classic dogwhistle frequently used to dismiss or marginalize some part of the gaming community. It's a way of saying they "aren't real gamers" without actually coming out and saying it. Hence, a dog whistle. The "doesn't actually play the games" trope is used all over the internet all the time. So when you also use that trope, you are participating in that dog whistle, knowingly or not. You can't just say "To be or not to be" and claim no knowledge of Shakespeare and that you invented it. Now sure, maybe you really haven't ever read Hamlet. But you probably should have.
The part where you and DT were talking about people watching games had me laughing my ass off, for some reason I couldn't stop thinking of this Tim and Eric sketch. czcams.com/video/BrfAWHHVz50/video.html
14:41 on point!
This is the way.
This was awesome!
Can you hook up an interview with John Wick? Would love to see that.
"I heard he once killed four characters in a tavern... with a _pencil_ !" 🤣
I didn’t realise how much of a boomer Trevor was , he’s so energetic and excitable in his seasons I didn’t know he had some grognard in him 😂
Gen X pal, Gen X. Don’t be slinging that “boomer” crap around here ;)
In FoundryVTT's defense, I'd say that it connects players from different countries. And it would be much harder to prep games without it.
@DaveThaumavore
I'll volunteer to join your 'army of people' to play random games to analyze the rulessets!
There’s a certain irony of a CZcamsr on CZcams, stating something along the lines of: nobody reads anymore, as they are bombarded constantly by other media. 😝