Meat = Longevity? New Australian Study Debunked
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- čas přidán 3. 03. 2022
- A recent Australian study of 170 countries claims that more meat is correlated with a longer life leading to news outlets saying, "sorry vegans" once again. However, the study is riddled with issues.
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Just to correct a small mistake I made when talking about GDP. With a closer look I realized that they did use GDP per capita PPP (not whole country GDP) but since they never specified that in the actual writing of the study where they simply said GDP PPP and only in the table subtext it made it look like it was just total GDP. My bad. Still, my next point in the video after that was how median income would be a better representation of socioeconomic status. A good example of why GDP per capita still doesn't cut it because high inequality inflates GDP per capita. For example, the US GDP per capita is usually over twice the median income! Darn oligarchs.
Do you still think a WFPB diet can reverse heart disease and why are Dr. Avi and Vegan Gains saying it doesn't?
@@bgrune1
Dr. Avi isn't saying it doesn't... Nor is he saying that it does... he's simply stating that it can't be conclusively proven right now...
Bart Kays response
czcams.com/video/fpyhcQg_sMk/video.html
Even Median GDP PPP is a bad measure, the best measure is actually median wealth as a multiple of PPP and because we are talking about health as you correctly pointed out healthcare costs (although that's really hard to adjust). The median wealth in the US is pretty bad actually compared to total wealth but it makes a really big difference on average in purchasing decisions, a 70 year old with no mortgage and owns their home can live very comfortable on the pension and buy whatever food they want within reason in Australia. What was called the French paradox could currently be called the Aussie paradox, our life expectancy is really high but our obesity rates and meat consumption are actually really close to the US but our life expectancy is closer to Japan or South Korea. The caveat is we do have low smoking rates and surprisingly apparently 12 % vegetarian according to an internet search which is pretty high. We probably drink more alcohol than the US but a higher proportion from wine and beer than the US and less from spirits. So as a random question right back at you what's your thinking on Australia's paradox? My thinking is it's mostly tobacco and type of alcohol consumption along with great public healthcare but that it's possible the number of vegetarians might make a contribution.
Agree that study pretty much just measured whether richer countries on average had a higher life expectancy regardless of countrywide diet etc. Even if the US performs badly the healthcare is better than low income countries (unfortunately can't actually say middle income countries anymore because some are better than the US as judged by life expectancy)
Sometimes you comment on economics, but I don't think this is your expertise. Keep in mind it's complicated like nutrition.
I encourage you to compare Scandinavians of Scandinavian descent against Americans of Scandinavian descent on standard of living during the same time period. More economic freedom in America was found at a time in America where these Scandinavians were wealthier in America.
Much of this counterintuitive result is due to the problem of economic calculation that results from central planning. Lacking voluntary exchange of goods, there are no objective /and meaningful/ measures of the needs of every citizen relative to every other citizen and every possible good and service.
www.cato.org/blog/swedens-big-welfare-state-superior-americas-medium-welfare-state-then-why-do-swedes-america
Here is the paper (Cato's link is broken): iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Sweden%20Paper.pdf
Here is the relevent quote: ". Swedes living in the USA are thus approximately 53 per cent more wealthy than Swedes (excluding immigrants) in their native country (OECD, 2009; US Census
database)."
"Sorry, Vegans, you're never going to stop getting bombarded with poor excuses for eating meat" would be a more honest subtitle
If you Don’t want to eat meat, you shouldn’t. It’s as simple as that
@@arnemyggen I'm sure that the animals that are being eaten, don't want to be eaten either. We're just blind and deaf to them.
Why don’t you spend more time worrying about yourself then what others are eating. I eat meat, and will never listen to another screeching voice Vegan again!
Love fat, love meat, love organs, love being healthy and 50lbs lighter!
@@11235Aodh animals also don’t care about eating other animals. Only humans are burdened by knowing too much. Empathy, mortality etc. all cause tons of worries and anxiety. Some choose to accept the state of affairs while others try desperately to find a way around it.
@@lorenbeaulieu2896 you clearly have no experience of empathy. Why don't you eat your family members since meat is so important to you. Fresh meat, available right in your household.
I remember doing cross-sectional stuff in sociology class. It didn't take me long to realize it's pretty worthless. You can make lots of unrelated things look related with the right search.
Haha Mic didn't like your comment cos he knows he's guilty
@@DavisMultiverse I wasn't saying Mic was wrong. Lol
@suicune2001 Don't worry he can't get you 😂 jokes, nah I didn't think so, didn't know what your perspective was but you just said a general statement
Saw this last week, excellent dissection of this "study". Seriously I don't know where you get the patience! 🌱
I have to take some major tiktok breaks to make it happen.
@@MictheVegan 😂🤣😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 100000 thumbs up!
@@potatolover56 As well as ordinarily science-based channels quoting it without mentioning all the contrary science or the flaws in the study. You find out people's biases that way. Disappointing.
Mike is truly invaluable. Thanks for your dedication to people and animals
As an Australian I wouldn’t trust any research about meat from Australia
Exactly, too much vested interest.
Totally agree as an Aussie . The meat industry is like the tobacco industry .
Exactly!
"Trendy western consumerist lifestyles". Wonder if they would use those same words to define keto, paleo and meat-only diets, given that these lifestyles treat animals' lives as a comodity you can easily take by paying for it.
This was one of your best explanations of study findings. 👏 fantastic
Thanks, this one took more effort than most videos so I appreciate it!
@@MictheVegan I have so much difficulty with stats and graphs. I often need to watch a few things over to let my eyes and what I heard align. I wish I could know how to read graphs sufficiently.
I can't stand "Sorry Vegans!" disgusting headline
Mic brought out the intellectual gloves to debunk nonsense, well done
Thanks so much for this mic. This was from my home town university and I've been getting smashed by work and family. It's all over the news and I needed something to return fire!
Take a moment and read the summary of the "good" study before you embarrass yourself in front of friends and family. It clearly states that the optimum diet for longevity contains fish, dairy, egg and white meat. Mic is great on some things, but giving a fair picture of scientific studies... Is not one of them.
@@plantatheist5883 me thinks mic struck a nerve here 🤣 🤣
@@plantatheist5883 white meat? doesn't chicken contain more clogging fat then beef? how about the clogging eggs cause? dairy? cows milk causes more harm then good and should never be fed after breastfeeding stage.
the fact that there has been one of the most accurate studies out there from Ancel Keys isn't enough to stop all these nonsense claims up untill now just shows how stupid our race really is.
it's ok keep working to give your $$$ to the owners of the largest corporations and keep sustaining the problems they create so they can milk you as much as they desire.
I was quite embarrassed to know that a researcher from my uni was on this. They pushed it quite a bit in terms of how popular this study was as well
researchers like this should be censured. this is a good job for a vegan campus group to call attention to this garbage.
@@smilebot484 no censoring, just correct them with science
@@smilebot484 So basically just silence anyone who disagrees with you, and don’t allow opposing opinions or thoughts.
@@rednarok not censored, censured, it’s a different word with a different meaning. To be censured means to be admonished for inappropriate behaviour- in this case bad science and and less than high academic principles.
I have been waiting for this video since this latest “study” hit my feed… Great job!
I would recommend you read the study for yourself rather than let Mic misrepresent them to you. The "good" study does indeed recommend eating more legumes but also 200 grams of fish, 200 grams of dairy and 50 grams of white meat for optimum longevity. That's more animal products by weight compared to grains fruit and vegetables.
I wish there was a study on quality of life too (on medication, movement, other physical harms etc.). Now a days with medicine science the life expectancy of even ill people is high so that might not be the complete picture too.
I can recommend simply reading the first page of the "plos" study(the "good" one).
Page one clearly states that the optimum diet for longevity included fish, dairy, white meat and eggs. Just for transparency. Mic is not great on this you know.
Peace.
Meat = Longevity? This has to be the biggest joke ever. Don't forget folks. The devil is the master of lies. Thanks for the clarification 🙂
Humans are the master of lies. Humans created both gods and devils, and then lied about those fictions being behind human fallacies and failings. Nope. We are both the creators of true evil, and each other's only answers to each other's prayers and needs, as decent animals capable of being "Moral Agents." Let us not deceive ourselves. Be well.
P.S. Your thumbnail pic looks amazing.
@@injunsun True words! 🙂
@@RawVeganAthleteAndreas If you haven't seen them, I highly recommend CZcamsrs "Simnett Nutrition," and Brian Turner, both Vegan body builders.
@@injunsun Hey thanks I know and love these CZcamsr 🙂
Glad you did a video on this. I (unfortunately) read through the whole study and you're spot on.
Did you read through the "good" study as well? Tell me when you get to the part where they find that the optimum diet for longevity contains fish, dairy, eggs and white meat.
Peace.
I don’t know how you have the patience to go through all the 💩 that you do. I enjoy the scientific content so well presented. Thanks.
He does not spend a long time reading the studies it turns out. The "good" study recommends eating: fish, dairy, eggs and white meat for optimum longevity. Did Mic mention that in the video? He must have missed it being so busy...
I’d have to argue that meat isn’t necessarily representative of how developed a country is. I live in Italy and they don’t eat tons of meat because it’s not part of their culture… they have millions of recipes, created and refined over thousands of years, and they stick to them. Meat is available, but it’s not the centerpiece like it is in America (especially Texas, where I’m from). They call it “cucina povera” or poor kitchen, because that’s the traditional way… beans, nuts, breads, pasta, polenta, vegetables, fruits, wine, lentils, a little cheese and a little meat,… that’s the Italian way no matter how much money you or the country has. It has blessed them with good health and long lives
It seems like a wise way to eat! I’m not too familiar with Italian culture (not having any Italian friends nor having been to Italy), but my impression is that they have the wisdom to both live to eat and eat to live.
Sounds like you describe the mediterranean diet.
But maybe because it's a developed country their is still more restaurants and fast food that serve meat than less developed countries, and maybe it would appear in the (not so great) data of this study that the extra meat this country sells and purchases compared to some others would look like "more meat, more health". Just a thought.
Im currently in Italy and all they serve is meat and cheese, they dont even know what a vegan is where I am, not one plant based option in restaurants, not one, just meat, cheese and bread/dough with more dairy in it. Italy = Meat and cheese. Ive also been to america and they have far more plant options. Are sure your from Italy????????????
@@isaacbosher1519
I don't know in which community you are ( maybe one which adapts to the taste of tourists ), but I didn't get much meat or diary when I was there.
While working part time in a pizza place taking phone orders a customer who knew very little English asked me what is Beef sandwich I answered chopped dead cow. My boss overheard me and was very disapproving of my unappetizing description but it’s the fact in a plain definition and it does sound VERY unappetizing.
yes, that is the biggest thing, i think! an analysis of so many countries to try and correlate meat consumption with longer life expectancy doesn't work when only a couple decades ago, most of these countries consumed a fraction of the meat, and life expectancy and various cause mortality are vastly long term things, so taking a snapshot misses the truth.
9:20 how many luxury items do I have to purchase to become immortal?
New here have see lots of your older videos from 5+ years ago and now watching this new video, gotta say you didn’t age a bit. I’m vegan for 2 years at age 23 and I hope I keep my young face like you Mic. Love the videos!
Am 24 and also keen to preserve my youthful body. I'm not fully vegan myself but I do respect vegans, and I wish you luck.
I am 42 years old been on eleven different medications for two years. My doctor who is a vegan said everything is from meat and dairy nothing else. Been eating and drinking plants for a year and half no changes.
@@shawndarling5855 40 y to 2y would be a 20 : 1 ratio and you've been doing this for 1.5y, so it's a little bit worse than that, I would expect it to rake longer than 1.5y for some (not all). I got into veganism 9 yrs ago, having given up smoking and drinking a couple of years before that, so it all helps, veganism is just 1 piece of the puzzle, I also took up jogging in 2017, went down 2 sizes in clothes and did my first half-marathon last year.
I hope you keep going and soon see the benefits.
Also should mention that not all vegan food is healthy, lots don't realise that and lots underestimate their calorie intake (not saying you do).
Don't forget your spf 😂 also eat your iron or supplement if you're a junkfood vegan (unfortunately like I am) because I swear it causes dark eyes/bagging
@@shawndarling5855Make sure you're doing whole foods and not eating oily foods or high fat. Don't be afraid of rice and beans. Get your fruits if you can afford it as well!!
I hate how junk studies get recognized
The vast majority of studies showing the vegan diet to be healthful are junk studies. It's just that Mic holds them up as unassailable fact.
@@gardenofeels6872 challenge anyone honest who can well read studies to a study review showdown of animal based vs plant based and we'll see
I am not a vegan or vegetarian... i am a low carber , but when i did try out vegan yes try it out -i did follow you Mike... now I follow you to listen to the “other side”. I just go with whats right for my health... but wanted you to know still like your content
Meat is good for you.
Great vid. It would be more appropriate to compare the lifespan of different diet styles within each country, than to just have this glazed over data of "country eat meat, not dying as much as people in Myanmar" or something. I think the point about development is obviously the biggest factor. So many countries die from lack of hygiene, random diseases, poor health care, tyranny, war, a lack of food all together, and pollution from developed countries (whether its using their land for farms/factories, or just them not having the infrastructure to have purified households).
When you look into a single country (any country really), it seems like populations that are not dying from poverty, that eat less meat or are vegetarian, live waaaaay longer. Like you said the Blue Zones eat so little meat and they are the kings of sticking around
Blue zone is BS, it has already been debunked exhaustively.
This is great. Thank you for finding these topics and picking them apart. Very important. Not a lot of folks doing this.
As the meat industry fails they will stop at nothing to spread lies.
Not a conspiracy theorist, but on the face of it it can't be unrelated to the uptick in Australian veganism. There is no way this is not in part a response to that. This was an excellent analysis of this research, which seems to be a variation on the theme of that study in Africa--give hungry children meat soup instead of veggie broth and they'll have more energy, well, duh--so thanks for posting : )
I always think like this. Also every time new dietary guidelines come out, there are constantly articles telling you why you should eat pounds of cheese and butter every week. It's enraging.
Did we eat butter before? Has butter been linked to cancer? Has dairy been linked to cancer? Has steak and liver been linked to diabetes? What is diabetes? Does it have anything to do with sugar? What are micro biomes in the stomach? What PH should your stomach be at? What happens with fibres in your body you can not process?
Kraft Dinner will kill you, or make you dependent on medications, as will not having meat in your diet.
Things to supplement while a vegan:
Vitamin A, B6, B12, D, F, K2
Amino Acids
@@lorenbeaulieu2896 I don’t supplement any of those things and my numbers are perfect after 3 years vegan. I don’t know what you’re on about.
@@lorenbeaulieu2896 Before what? Not cancer but heart disease. Yes. Yes. Diabetes is an inability to metabolize glucose efficiently requiring insulin therapy. Yes, in that glucose is blood sugar. The microbiome is a complement of bacteria in the small intestine and colon. The pH of the stomach should be acidic. Fibers the body cannot process are excreted through defecation.
The last sentence is not fact, but opinion, and too vague an assertion to be addressed, anyhow. A plant-based diet has plenty of the full variety of amino acids and the only thing we can't get from a plant-based diet--yet--is B12. The other things are found in abundance in a plant-based diet, and we are shown in the scant research available to be superior converters/metabolizers of them.
Most of your comment appears to be some sort of philosophical rumination and the conclusion is not scientific. 6 out of 10 for effort, Loren.
@@tamcon72 please name the plants that have all these vitamins and minerals and Amino acids? Heart disease? What heart disease and please give me scientific data that explains what HDL and LDL are and what the difference is and the type of meat that causes this disease? I would beg to differ, the biggest cause of heart disease is Carbohydrates, especially modified carbon elements in your food that your body does not recognize. So it stores it as fat within your arteries and vessels.
Yes Carbs are converted into sugars. And yes when sugar goes up insulin goes up and vice-versa (unless your body has a difficult time processing foods into energy). Sugar is glucose, same with all the ose’s that are found in abundance.
Yes micro biome is bacteria, different bacteria that works in different PH levels. Acidic is not a PH level. 6.9 is acidic. Again what PH is your stomach supposed to be?
Please name the plants that have:
Creatine, carnitine, taurine heme iron, CoQ10, and all the vitamins that I listed?
Fibres that can not be broken down are not all excreted. Really you think that? The body does not store things like that as White fat? What is the difference between white fat and brown fat? What’s the difference between visceral fat and body fat? Does your body need fat? Is there such a thing as bad fat and good fat?
Nice try with the rebuttal though, but saying vegan gives you all of these things, without any examples is kind of lame. There are none, because the only things that have all of these things besides meat, is in the ocean.
Top drawer as always! Makes Shawn Baker look like a fool.
He does that all by himself!
Unfortunately Mic struggles to convey the entire message of the so called "good" study in this video as it also mentions that fish, dairy, egg ad white meat are a part of the "optimum diet for longevity". The pertinent info is available in the summary on page one of said study.
Great video. It's helpful when someone who knows how to understand studies breaks it down.
There is something that he has not gone through.
Essentials in meats that can not be found in plants
Vitamin A, B6, B12, D, F, K2
Amino Acids: Creatine, Carnitine, Carnosine, Taurine heme-Iron, CoQ10, Cholesterol, CLA
@Loren Beaulieu lol, yes, he has. Look at his previous videos.
Also, most everyone knows that the only reason B12 is in meat is because of the B12 INJECTIONS. Not cool.
@@lorenbeaulieu2896 You discredit yourself immediately because Coq10, B6, F, k2, D (mushrooms), CLA are all found in plants. That's not even debatable.
Also, creatine, carnitine, carnosine are all made by the body, and no, they are not essential from diet.
Neither is heme-iron or vitamin A.
@@vgloveforlife Yes, it is safe to eat mushrooms (some of them) but they also contain poisons to protect themselves from predators. But by all means eat all the mushrooms and whatever Vegans will allow you to eat. I raise cattle, I know what to give them so they live a long healthy life, and have never injected an animal with B12. I appreciate them because they give me something a plant will not. I don’t like pills and drugs, so I eat meat.
Have fun digesting.
I have a hard time listening to the high pitch voice and the whinnying from Vegans about what others eat.
Please link the videos that explain this so I don’t have to listen to too much screeching.
@@lorenbeaulieu2896 Only 3% of mushrooms are poisonous. Vitamin D IS IN vegan food. Yes, technically mushrooms aren't plants, but we all know that's not what you meant above. Sorry, you have a low-tolerance for people and their voices. That's certainly not my problem. Perhaps you should eat more plants, they might help calm you and help with temperament deficits.
I joined a brunch group a little while ago. The hostess is a big fan of eggs, and has served them each time (since learning I’m vegan, she’s also been very gracious and made plant based options, too). The first time we all got together, it came up that I was vegan. The other people were asking me questions, genuinely curious. I shared some facts about eggs, for instance how 1 egg contains nearly the entire maximum recommended daily intake of dietary cholesterol, or how, legally, egg companies cannot advertise their products as safe or healthy if they want to use government money for the ad. Everyone was shocked at this information.
Every week since that conversation , we get together and there are eggs on the table. There is always a comment shared between the egg eaters about how they may be unhealthy/have a lot of cholesterol, but it’s okay, because reasons (“I exercise a lot.” “Those recommendations are conflated.”). I don’t say anything, because I know it won’t make any difference. I’ve long since realised that people would much rather hear good news about their bad habits. On the other hand, I never feel the need at the table to justify the fruit I’m eating.
I thought the "rise of dietary cholesterol due to egg consumption" case was debunked meanwhile?
Have you tried JUST Eggs? Amazing omelettes!
I am vegan and eat out breakfast with a non-vegan friend. He gets eggs most of the time and I think of all the male chicks being ground up so he (and others) can eat eggs. I don’t say anything as I don’t think people want to be reminded of such things and I once ate the same way as he does. He’d feel judged if I said something so I just order vegan items and try to show an alternative breakfast option with my choices. If he asked me about eggs I would show him a video of chicks being macerated but since he does not I am patient and kind. Some vegans might see this as wrong on my part to not do more but I can’t constantly be trying to raise the ethics of others.
@@Gaia_Seraphina If you consume any dietary cholesterol at all, your levels will naturally be higher than if you don't consume any. If you consume cholesterol constantly, it won't significantly raise your cholesterol.
In short, your base level cholesterol will be higher if you consume animal products, but it doesn't change much from this base level when you eat an egg, for instance.
@@GeddyRC
It was said that dietary cholesterol has an absolute minimal impact on body cholesterol.
Inflammation raises it significantly though.
I saw that headline; MictheVegan is on it!
Excellent, as always! Thanks for your in depth analysis -- Your hard work is always appreciated!
The "meat good" people will have their bias come back and bite them in the butt, or lower colon, heart, etc. someday. Oh well...
Thank you for breaking this down. I really appreciate your content. I learn a lot in every video.
Make sure you read the studies for yourself as well. If only just the summary. The "good" study clearly states that fish, dairy, eggs and white meat are essential parts of the optimum diet for longevity.
Hi, Mic. Could you look into a Lancet study that showed correlation between high cholesterol and lower elderly >80 mortality?
It was done in 1997
Low cholesterol in really old people is often a sign of diseases like cancer. I'm not saying that's the explanation, but it's a possibility
There have been several good studies that show low cholesterol to be a death sentence in older people. Not only those that are around 80, but even in their sixties and seventies.
@@gardenofeels6872 Thank you. Might look for some. Saw a Dr on CZcams saying cholesterol is "not necessarily bad" and using the study I mentioned. He seemed to be implying a lot even though the evidence was scarce and not necessarily conclusive. I will look for some others that show otherwise.
It is critical to know how reverse causality is confusing people about the possible effects of cholesterol levels in the elderly. There are several diseases (cancer, TB) and conditions (depression, aging itself) that directly lower LDL levels AND kill many people. What this means is that in the very old, unless you could control for every one of those common factors (including the general aging of the body ) you will inevitably get a correlation between lower LDL and mortality. However, as we teach would-be researchers, "correlation is not causation." Until there are experimental studies in the elderly to raise LDL for some and not for others, everyone is just guessing about whether higher LDL is beneficial or just a marker of better health.
What we do know is that in Mendelian randomized experiments--people have genetic variations that give them a lifetime of normal LDL (35-70) almost normal LDL, or high LDL. higher levels of LDL are associated with higher rates of CVD deaths at every point in the lifespan, including in the very old. In contrast, normal or almost normal levels of LDL are associated with much lower levels of death from heart attack and stroke at every stage of life, including the very old.
Research in this area is complicated by the fact that most people in industrialized nations have elevated LDL and some degree of heart disease, so we don't have a large healthy group to compare ourselves against.
I hope this helps.
What kind of serious researcher would define sweet potatoes and white sugar as belonging to the same food group labeled "carbohydrate crops"? I doubt the Okinawans would be in a Blue Zone if Skittles were their staple. Perhaps these researchers should do a double-blind randomized control trial with placebo control to test their Skittles vs. Sweet Potato equivalence hypothesis. Cheers!
God, I wish there was a real French paradox so my brother did not drop dead in his Paris apartment from a massive heart attack at age 61. Too young to go. A formidable athlete but not a healthy eater with a high blood pressure problem.
I'm sorry. My condolences.
Sorry to hear it 😞
@@MictheVegan Merci Mike
@@tamcon72 Thanks
@@isabellezablocki7447 Same here. Even knowing some of us isn't strong enough inducement to eat better. Both my dad and late husband ate more veg than regular Americans, but they craved and ate massive amounts of meats and cheeses, declaring they would like what they ate, and eat what they liked, "even if it shaved a few years off of their lives." Dad was 57. My husband was 56, and dropped dead in front of me, on our front walk, coming up on five years ago. The last words he heard from me weren't something sweet and loving. They were, "Why do you have that weird look on your face?" I wish our families could somehow be deprogrammed, before it's too late. But, c'est la vie, non? They leave us to live on, and mourn, and sometimes, get a little angry at them, still. Be well.
The hell is wrong with these people
They’re vegans
@@jonzygon391 The hell is wrong with you
This was posted 9 minutes ago but I watched the whole 22 minutes by watching in 3x speed
Wait, what? HOW??!!
3x? I can only get 2x! How'd you do it?
Once again, a non-biased, fact based analysis. You're a gem. When smart people like you turn to plant-based eating, it's obvious that it's an eating plan with actual science behind it.
Judging by your statement you don't know the meaning of bias 🤣
Non biased?
The "good" study argues that the optimum diet for longevity contains 200 grams of fish, 200 grams of dairy, 27.5 grams of egg and 50 grams of white meat. Did Mic make sure his viewers where made aware of that?
We are all biased. Yes even I. We just need to be honest about what those biases are. Mic decidedly is not.
@@plantatheist5883 Sounds to me like you're nit-picking and littering the comment thread with that.
@@singergrant5652
I think it is important to note that the study Mic brings up to counter the bad study also mentions that meat and dairy is part of the optimum diet for longevity.
If anyone is cherry picking it surely is the guy who fails to mention the main point of the study and focuses on those findings which suits his own agenda?
@@plantatheist5883 I think you're misrepresenting their conclusions. They also had optimal levels of sugar-sweetened beverages, refined grains, processed meat, and oils. The study concluded that the optimal diet had higher intakes of whole grains, legumes, fish, fruits, vegetables, and nuts.
Ungh... Australian? I feel embarrassed that I'm also an Aussie.
Australia was okay before it turned commie.
You should be more embarrassed your probably a vegan
The Lancet Impact Factor is 79. New England JoM- 91. Hahaha, Archie Comics IF is 3.3. That's 0.9 above The Australian Journal of Thingyness. (joke...umm, but only a liddle). Glad to see you got onto this so quick Mic! Great work mate.
What textbooks or courses would you recommend to understand studies like this? Thanks!
I read this study and its wording is really biased. They include a lot of sentences that seem like they are just intended to be personal jabs at vegans and aren't in any way actually related to the study.
But, does longevity mean living or existing?
All the meat eaters in my family over 50 are diseased and only make it to the next day because of medication.
Sorry for the anecdote that apparently accounts for nothing.
You are right anecdotes are not what you should base scientific paradigms on.
It might also be the fact that your relatives are diseased because of obesity or smoking rather than meat consumption. The study Mic mentions talking about legumes increasing your lifespan also mentions that eating fish, egg, dairy and white meat are a part of the optimal diet for longevity. Vegans who are obese and smoke can on the other hand still develop health issues. Strong causal links have been established between obesity and ill health as well as smoking and lung cancer. These findings are not based on anecdotes:)
You can only say that if they ONLY eat meat
@@lahuntr4217 Precisely.
@@lahuntr4217 that is not at all true, we have statistical association with various factors to account for such
@@OatmealTheCrazy that’s true, do what makes you happy
Where's the link to the PLOS study calculator for life expectancy? @20:10
Mic thanks so much for doing this! You were the first person I thought to send the article to. :)
I'd recommend sending it to someone else if you can't find the time to read it yourself. Not hating on Mic, but he completely misrepresents the "plos" study. If you read the first page of the paper or even the summary, or even the figures on the first page you will find that: fish, dairy, eggs and white meat were included in the optimum diet for longevity.
@@plantatheist5883 Thanks for your input. I read through the main portions of the PLOS study and watched this video again after reading your feedback. I disagree, however, that Mic “completely misrepresented” the study, since he used specific quotes from the study such as “reduced red meat” and did not claim at any point that the study advocated for a wholly plant-based diet, although the suggestions in the study are quite clear that people would benefit by moving in that direction.
I sent this to him after reading the Australian study and seeing some major red flags and biased language. As a nursing student we must look at studies and some that we come across are so obviously skewed, usually due to the industries who funded them. I’m sure we can agree that the overall message of the Australian study to readers was ‘more meat equals longer life’, which the PLOS study quite clearly conflicts.
I see how someone could look at the summary (introduction) and believe the optimal diet includes those foods mentioned, but the summary only states “Fortunately, several recent meta-analyses have summarized the impact on the risk of premature deaths for various food groups, including fruits, vegetables, whole grains and refined grains, nuts and legumes, fish, eggs, milk/dairy, red and processed meats, and sugar-sweetened beverages [2-6].”
These foods are just listed as factors, not foods specifically included in increasing life expectancy.
The PLOS study specifically does suggest that “An optimal diet had substantially higher intake than a typical diet of whole grains, legumes, fish, fruits, vegetables, and included a handful of nuts, while reducing red and processed meats, sugar-sweetened beverages, and refined grains.” In regards to white meat, dairy, and added oils, if you look at figure 3, those three types of foods are not positively nor negatively correlated but the text above mentions some evidence being “low for and very low for white meat”, and in the discussion segment, a few paragraphs down, the authors again mention that the evidence was “very low” for eggs and white meat, which shows us that the authors are being genuine by not using those as factors in changes in LE. I didn’t see a whole lot mentioned about dairy, but if you use the calculator that the authors designed, and go from 0 to an elevated intake, life expectancy decreases, but when only a small adjustment is made there is little to no change, expressed in intervals.
The calculator is here if you’d like to play around with it. Obviously we can’t use this for 100% accuracy but it gives us a good idea of how some changes affect our health. White meat has no impact on the expectancy, even when going from 0 to the max, but even though we know cholesterol levels could be substantially elevated in reality, the evidence they used was not good enough to be a factor on the calculator. food4healthylife.org/
Overall my understanding of the PLOS was similar to the Blue Zone studies. Typically 95% plant-based and some fish, some populations include small amounts of animal products. Personally I don’t care as much about life expectancy but rather animal well being. Climate scientists have been urging people to adopt a plant-based or at least predominantly plant-based lifestyle for several years due to impact on climate change and vast resources being used to grow animals. What does it matter to live to 70, 80, or more of the environment is uninhabitable? The tipping point is approaching when the ecosystems break down, as they currently are unfortunately. That’s my opinion, based on the recent IPCC reports and everything I know about human-caused planetary changes.
I mean, even the average person knows that the more fruits and veggies you eat, the healthier you are. My meat eating friends and my dad say that I'm always eating healthy, but then turn around and say that I need to eat meat or I'm not going to be healthy... 🙄 Ok Bruh.
Yes it so ingrained in people's mind that they need meat and more protein when in fact we tend to eat too much protein.
@@isabellezablocki7447 Fr, after showing a mountain of evidence they be like "Well I think that too much extremism is bad". No you don't.
@@isabellezablocki7447 Yup and that excess protein fuels the growth of HGH and cancer growth.
@@HexproofAnarchist explain how meat cause cancer 😆
@@lahuntr4217 Go read the studies. I have and you can too.
So how do vegans get all the over 15 nutrients that are not found in plants without taking any supplements or injections?
I guarantee 14 of those are ones you can find in plants or ones your body makes/converts already. Prove me wrong.
@@singergrant5652 you mean like for example heme iron, B12, Vitamin A, creatine etc ? How does body make them?
@@Juhadiable Iron (the human body doesn't need any specific type) is found in plants (and quite plentiful at that). Provitamin A is converted to Preformed vitamin A. Vitamin A is found in both animal products and plants. Creatine is made by the body from amino acids, and cranberries have a small amount. So yep, you're wrong.
@@singergrant5652 why then most of vegans are deficient in nutrients that are said found only in animal products?
@@Juhadiable But there are no nutrients only found in animal products (b12 excluded). Believe it or not, vegan diets can be processed food diets too devoid of the whole foods that are rich in iron and vitamin A such as leafy greens, seeds, and beans. Vegans make up only 2% of the US, and the most common nutrient deficiencies In the U.S are calcium, essential fatty acids, folic acid, iron, magnesium, and vitamins A, B12, C, and D. Do you consider all omnivores as having the same eating plan?
I would prefer we start using the word, 'flesh'. I don't like that we use the word 'meat'. There was a time when the word mostly referred to allllllll foods, and most of the time, flesh was referred to as flesh. I prefer that we do this again. Words can be reflections and influences of our thinking and behaviour. It is why those who make a living exploiting the reproductive processes of bovines hate when we vegans use the word, 'milk'. It interferes with their goals, even though the word milk has been used longer than I can document, when referring to plant excretions, and even astronomical entities.
Also, a side line almost non sequitur, heh; gdp leaves so much out when it comes to how gdp is even accumulated; what counts as metrics. For a more eloquent explanation of that, see the 2019 davos conference about gdp. While there reacquaint oneself with the excellent panel on economic inequality - if one hasn't seen it, it is very good, worth a listen. The panelists are amazing.
You have a point--"flesh" better brings home what your are eating.
Thanks for breaking this down!
Please read the first page of the "good" study. Mic does a terrible job of representing their findings that fish, dairy, eggs and white meat are essential for optimum longevity.
Great stuff as always Mic, thanks these they are gold 🏆🥇🏅
Brilliant analysis 🧐 outstanding!
I must say a thorough analysis of the "bad" study promoting meat. However he did miss that the contrasting study mentions that eating 200g of fish, 27 g of eggs, 200g of dairy and 50 g of white meat is part of the optimised diet for longevity...
I think I get the idea: People who can afford to buy a lot of meat generally live longer, while those who might just eat the occasional rat or something have low life expectancy.
Or more simply, meat = food. People who have plenty of food tend to live longer than those who don't.
No, actually, the best research shows that more red and processed meat increases rates of colon cancer and shortens people lives.
@@karlwheatley1244 For processed meat this has ben confirmed causally. For red meat the correlation is tenuous at best. It may be that red meat eaten without sufficient fibre leads to constipation and thus oxidative stress within the colon. This is yet to be shown.
@@theplantaheist9404 It's not related to constipation at all, but yes, causal mechanisms by which red meat causes more colon cancer have been identified.
@@karlwheatley1244 what about the people who eat raw meat.
@@lahuntr4217 No evidence eating lots of raw meat can produce healthy longevity on average. Tribes that ate lots of raw animal foods had high rates of parasitic infections, and that's no picnic.
This study sounds like an instance of “we like to hear good news about our bad habits” and the people writing it are personally addicted to meat and want to justify themselves.
bad habit? just omnivores being omnivores :)
Yeah I'm addicted to bioavailable protein and good sources of b12. I'm also addicted to water. Sue me:)
@@plantatheist5883 What does water have to do with this--diets high in animal foods and beef in particular have a worse water footprint.
Excellent research and reporting. Keep up the good work, man! 👍🏼
Yes his research was so excellent that he somehow completely missed how one of the three tables in the "good" study mentions that the optimum diet for longevity includes: fish, dairy, eggs and white meat...
@@plantatheist5883 Where does it say the "optimum diet for longevity" includes those foods? I don't see that in the study. Please give me a quote. Thanks
Why eat meat when there's beyondmeat now and justegg.
The nutritional composition of lean fish and white meat is superior and also cheaper?
Because meat is good for you
I saw this and knew it was only a matter of time before Mike took it to task.
Hey Mike (Mic?), I read something on the NHS (I think that's what it was) website saying B vitamins (B12 and B6 specifically) make you fat/cause obesity. Could you do a video on that? I was just googling if vitamins make you gain weight and that came up. I don't think it's right and probably has something to do with enriched foods, but I don't know. 🤷🏻♀️
Great video, I appreciate your knowledge.
great video Mic!!👏👐💚
Great job Mikey !
Bro got dose of his own medicine 😅😂
I was searching for a debunk of this study and i've found you of course. 😂
Why does junk science like this get so much traction? It's so frustrating how intellectually dishonest the media can be when it comes to veganism.. and most things, I guess.
The media tells the masses what they want to hear, the truth is not always palatable for most people.
@@OM617a But what you fail to understand is that today, the "media" are all anti-global warming and therefore pro-vegan.
@@gardenofeels6872 This is what you are told. The elites that pull the strings on this planet want you to keep animal agriculture afloat, they want you supporting big pharma, which they are heavily invested in. They also don't want you to live long enough to draw a pension or become a perceived burden to the state.
@@OM617a Much of that is true, but not for me. I do not support Big Pharma, and I do not support animal agriculture. I eat only occasional hand-caught, sustainable salmon as my meat source. Nothing from a farm. I grow my own vegetables, so I also do not support the destruction of pristine land to grow more crops. How many vegans do you think can say that? How strange is it that I, an omnivore, kill many less animals per year than the almost any vegan does?
As for living long enough to be a burden to the state, only time will tell.
@@gardenofeels6872 Well it seems you are closer to veganism than most then, which leads me to ask why are you so anti vegan? Most people (including myself) live in built up areas and do not have the opportunity to grow our own vegetables, fruit, grains or legumes. As the vast majority of farm land used (around 75%) supports extremely inefficient animal agriculture, the best thing we can do for animals, the planet and ourselves is be vegan. This reduces crop deaths, deforestation, land used and hence extinction of wild species.
The question veganism answers is how we can feed almost 7 billion people, while causing the least harm and destruction possible.
Hong Kong has the highest life expectancy in the world.
Hong Kong has the highest meat consumption per capita in the world equivalent to two pieces of 10-oz steak per day.
Hong Kong has the highest average IQ of 108 in the world.
Source: trust me bro.
Also correlation is not causation. They also have high quality life style...
Is enriched bread vegan? How do I know if a brand of bread uses non-heme iron?
👍 #BoycottMeat and all other animal products of cruelty and exploitation in any way possible!
So all products basically?
Great video, Thanks Mic!
Great observations, Mic!
Pity really that he didn't observe that even the good study found that fish, white meat, dairy and eggs are part of the optimum diet for longevity. Available on page one of the study and in the tables and graphs.
Peace.
@@plantatheist5883 The point is really easy: Less animal products = longer longevity.
Love! :D
@@Corilo91 I agree. Less however does not equal none.
Peace:)
@@plantatheist5883 You are the one who tries to use false analogies here. Try documenting yourself about the topic instead.
@@Corilo91
What does "documenting myself about the topic" even mean?
I pointed out that the study Mic mentions as "good" also makes it clear that fish, dairy, eggs and white meat is part of the optimum diet for longevity.
Its all there on page one of the study if you want to "document" yourself.
🤣🤣🤣 sorry not convinced. Will continue my carnivorous diet I’ve been on since 2018. Reversed too many issues to believe “studies”.
"you need a team of researchers to".. Nope just one statistical nerd would do it. That paper was linked to me in a discussion on The gram and even its statistical cross sectional analysis controls were done very poorly. Mostly you use a certain preselected control that has proper references and research behind it. These controls were taking from very random papers to skew results or just incompetence. This is how they actually "failed" some controls. Because they went off road to some fishing reference to get their some even unconfirmed controls.
This is an actual quote from the study:
"People on vegetarian diets may be able to maintain “health” because they avoid potential meat-related nutrient deficiencies through one or more of the following ways:
1) Taking meat nutrient replacements to meet essential nutrient needs.
2) Eating a vegetarian diet and identifying as vegetarian are two different things. Ruby (2012) and Rosenfeld and Burrow3,69 have concluded that the majority of self-identified vegetarians may still eat meat occasionally. This would allow them to absorb the unique nutrients from meat.69
3) Many vegetarians do not follow meat-free diets from birth. Instead, many have decided to avoid eating meat at some point during their adult lives.94 Thus, their dietary limitations missed the period of critical growth and development - childhood and early adolescence.
4) Many vegetarians include dairy products in their diets (eg, Hindus). These contain animal proteins and minerals in proportions similar to meat.
Saturated fat in red meat has been associated with the onset of atherosclerosis. However, this hypothesis has been based on observational or animal studies, instead of randomised controlled trials, a standard study designed to identify the causal relationship.95 Therefore, this conclusion has been subject to debate."
lmao
Will you talk about Ray Peat and the pro metabolic crowd?
Yesss!!
Pleasepleaseplease
@@vix7146 they’re popping up everywhere!! Ray Peat doesn’t even have a Wikipedia page and he’s so popular I’m seeing people say that ice cream is a “super food” in the pro metabolic crowd lmao
@@skatingsarah1996 I love that he encourages and doesn't demonize carbs
And (almost) everything about pufas
He's actually more vegetarian-friendly comparing to Berg or Saladino etc
@@vix7146 yes the PUFA/seed oil thing is so interesting to me I’m curious what the truth is
Meat simply has more nutrients, doesn't cause bloating it's like its meant to be a part of you, you get a deep fulfilled satiation feeling. Some fibre foods are still good too. Meat is a higher vibrational structure, plants are complex too but plants are a lower vibrational food. It's good to get high and low vibrational nutrients.
Unless you're stuck at sea, you don't wanna eat bread , it'll sap your vitamin c levels, why some people call empty carbs an anti nutrient. Unless you're gonna bring lemons to go with the bread, otherwise you may aswell switch to your keto tank. We're a hybrid machine for a reason.
@nigkook Consider it a throw away rhetoric piece that you take a bite of just for flavour. If you want evidence go talk to a real person that's actually brave enough to do it.
Imagine taking a guy who literally looks like a corpse seriously when speaking on this subject.
Didn't know having a tan was a requirement for analyzing and debunking scientific papers lol
@@singergrant5652 His lack of a tan is the least of his problems.
@@bendak7584 veganism effects eye sight
@@SKvldlf 75% of adults in the US use some type of vision correction. 2% of the population is vegan. There are many factors contributing to poor eye sight. A deficient diet, whether vegan or omnivore, could contribute to reduced vision, but there is no research that points to just being vegan as impacting the eye sight.
@@bendak7584 He hasn't aged at all in 6 years. I think he's doing just fine.
Vegans: “Listen to the science”
Science: *Goes against Vegansim*
Vegans: “Noooooo I didn’t say science that goes against our beliefs!”
Science overrall is pro plant based diet. He literally showed a better quality paper that says that plant based diets prolong life expectancy...
Scientists are prone to bias and curroption like any other human, you have to be cautios about scientific papers.
@@uptown_rider8078 You're supposed to be cautious with every scientific study you read.
And btw: Humans being carnivorous? LMAO
@@phill234 Fair enough, I agree with that. And yes, humans are carnivorous. Without taking into account our biology and physiology, you can see that humans are extremely violent, a carnivorous characteristic.
@@uptown_rider8078 Our biology, physiology and evolutionary history all show that we are an omnivorous species. The claim that humans are extremely violent is way too general. Some humans are violent, but most would always choose a life in peace over a life of violence. There's a reason why we lock up violent humans in jails. There's a reason why people eho torture animals/humans are considered psychopaths.
Another great video and Nice guitars! 😁
Great breakdown. A bit wonky but that's why I need to hear it from you so I understand it somewhat.
Wonky in the sense that he missed that the "good" study found that eating fish, dairy, eggs and white meat was essential to optimise longevity?
I noticed nations with highest life expectancy often eat liver as a treat. But they also have kimchi. So i'm wondering if either of those foods play a factor. Or maybe the balanced diet of both works. According to some health officials what you eat has no effect on body health. So who knows for sure. Studies can be used to prove anything.
Soy and seaweed are commonly consumed staples in these countries.
@@singergrant5652 wow i throw up just smelling those
@@LelandReview haha, and kimchi and liver are palatable?
@@singergrant5652 I love Kimchi but liver I can't stand. Reminds me of the choice between candy and vegetables. Usually what tastes worse is best for you.
Just a point about science: If you have to adjust the data to fit the theory, the theory is flawed. I am personally more impressed by people's life stories than any statistical analysis.
So anecdotes? Not overly scientific with a sample size of one. Or am I missing something?
@@plantatheist5883 Manipulated data is the scientific equivalent of a lie. Now, if a person tells me a story and it is bull, I got some idea from their demeanor. If a scientist makes an observation, and the observation does not fit his theory, and then he changes the data to fit the theory, that is not truth. Who do I believe? Everyone has an agenda these days, and they all want you to think like they do. I have my own experiment with my sample size one study group, and can tell from personal experience that eating more plants has improved my health. What does my life have to do with the statistical average life expectancies of people 70 years ago? Not much.
"If you have to adjust the data to fit the theory, the theory is flawed." You have to adjust the data to account for differences in things like SES, and unless you do that, any conclusions drawn from the study are not trustworthy
@@karlwheatley1244
I agree.
How does this relate to Mic failing to mention an important finding of one of the studies mentioned?
@@plantatheist5883 I was trying to respond to William, not you.
Awesome, thank you! Really enjoyed the video
Why is it that wild carnivores arent dying from heart disease or strokes? Then the next question is why are our pet dogs when fed the dry food garbage which is comprised of 70% plant matter cooked at high heat, equivalent to a standard american garbage diet get the same diseases like heart disease, type 2 diabetes, cancers, tooth decay and their wild cousins the wolf who only genetically are different from our pet dogs in that they cannot eat starch snd dogs evolved along side humans have evolved to eat it. Yet wolves eating a predominantly meat based diet also do not get the typical human diseases. The answer is once again excess sugar in our diets from grain, starch and fruit eaten as a part of our daily diet. Animals dont eat processed foods unless domesticated. What happens to a free range cow grazing on grass? It remains healthy and not very fat. Feed that same cow grain and in a very short time they become really damn fat, great for profits but bad for health. So all you blind vegans can go on believing the foolishness that meat causes disease but your estrogen poisoning from your excess soy consumption has destroyed your rationality. My 2 year old dog has never eaten dry or processed dog food i make his dog food with all raw chicken, beef, pork and salmon and organs. Additionally he gets raw meaty bones daily snd his teeth are immaculate, he is fit and healthy. The breed typically lives to 13-15 my money he lives to 20 at least. Could always have genetics for a short life but he wont die from food related issues. Oh snd wolves and dogs are also omnivores.
@Dookie Bookie them why is our stomach ph 1-1.5. One of the most acidic on the planet, comparable to most scavengers and a ferret? High sugar diets are the issue not meat. I have proven it reversing my pre diabetes and testing different foods alone and together with a CGM.
Wow, good thesis, want me to show you a real one??
@@user-cc32vcg811 no he used his intelligence something vegans don’t have
_"Why are all those people that smoke still alive and didn't get lung cancer?"_
1:34 did you know mic has never spelled anything wrong before?
Video was really good tho.
Nice video and guitars!
Thank you so much, Mic!! Great job breaking down that garbage study!
I agree! Unfortunately he did not mention that the "good" study mentions that fish, dairy, egg and white meat are a part of the diet for optimum longevity. You will find this statement if you read the study summary on page ONE.
Peace.
🤯 My brain explodes from all the info.
I live near Corfu. Many people are really, really old here. All of them eat meat. (and some still smoke and drink moonshine)
But the research is clear that better health outcomes come from eating little meat or none at all.
"Many people are really, really old here." Notice you left out the people who ate meat and already died.
Thank you 😊😊
Science "Writer' debunks study in living room.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 CDC posted warnings on the Vegan diet.
Bro stop hating on us meat eaters, we aren't causing any more harm than you! you can't expect others to undergo a vegan diet when their bodies can't handle it.
He is an animal rights activist masquerading as a health expert.
He's not "hating on meat eaters". He's simply showing the data that suggests that a whole plant based diet is the healthiest, and that animal products are unhealthy.
Also i hope you realise that exploiting and killing animals against their will is unethical.
Grass-fed animal meat or ... this matters. Ditto for plants with pesticides or not. Processed carbs are bad. We agree. Right
The claim about 7th Day Adventists is a valid one. Latter Days Saints (Mormons) have the same lifespan despite having higher meat intake.
All of my relatives on my mom's side were Mormons, and they all lived into their 80s or 90s eating lots of meat. My Grandma said it was their spirituality and strong sense of community.
@@gardenofeels6872 shhh... don't say that out loud, unless you want the vegan horde to come after you and your family.
@@Mario-forall Thanks for the warning, Mario. I think I see one creeping up behind me now.
@@gardenofeels6872 My granny lived from butter and refined sugar and died at 95.5 after a very short timr of illness. I doubt you would recommend her diet to people in general? Anyway, I know very little about the eating habits among Mormons but there is a former Mormon (he speaks well of them) with family members still in the Church of LDS's who says there is a habit of eating less meat and more vegetables among Mormons. (At least from what I understood). Unfortunately I don't remember what video it is. The channel is Plant Chompers. Maybe it's just his closest family? Anyway, as a person who has been active in churches for decades I think we can forget about the strong sense of community making Mormons live longer than Baptists, because you can find that in many places. I agree it matters for our health, but I don't think it explains why Mormons live longer. Interesting in nany ways.
@@goranbreskic4304 The Mormons in my family ate plenty of meat, but they did not eat much junk foods. Not a lot of sugar either. I don't know about Baptists, but Mormons are particularly family-oriented, and go out of their way to help each other during times of strife or turmoil. If you have a family member die, other Mormons will make all of the arrangements for the funeral, bring you food, and do your chores for you around the house. I think they go above and beyond the call of duty. If you get behind on a house payment of some other debt, they will help you pay it.
Hey Mic do you read your emails?!
He probably can’t read
@@jonzygon391 What is it suppose to mean?
Mic we need your help!
Please respond to:
10,000 Years Ago We Stopped Eating
This and It Was a Huge Mistake.
This video could do some real damage
fantastic analysis
Vegan for the animals ! 👵🌿
Have you contacted the JRE yet?!
On the list!
correlation ≠ causation
Sigh
Oh he Daily Fail is at it again 🙄
Awesome video Mic