PCIE is the Future, The Discord Issue, & You'll Own Nothing | Discussion w/ Wendell of Level1 Techs
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
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Wendell of Level1 Techs came by, so we had an unplanned, wandering discussion about the future of connection technology and PCs. This is just for fun and thought. The star of the show is PCIE as the future for everything, but we also explore topics of technology and software ownership ("you'll own nothing and be happy"), Valve seeing the future, and latency response plus storage.
Check out Wendell's channel here! / level1techs
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TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - Wendell's Box of Oddities
04:50 - The Future is PCIE
08:44 - OCuLink, MCIO, & PCIe Gen 6
19:22 - Valve vs. You'll Own Nothing & Be Happy
23:54 - The Discord Problem: Searchable Help
29:45 - Mystery Epyc CPU
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Hosts: Steve & Wendell
Video: Vitalii Makhnovets
Editing: Tim Phetdara, Steve Burke - Hry
We gave Wendell our small sound chamber last week (the one from before we built the new big one), so while he was in town, he brought a box of oddities. We decided to just film a wandering discussion about the industry and his thoughts -- I was mostly there to learn and ask questions. There's no specific objective, but more of a fun conversation about PCIE and the future. Hope you all enjoy basically watching us hang out! Check out Wendell's channel here! czcams.com/users/Level1Techs
Damn we missed getting a Base db Sound Test inside the Old Sound Chamber inside the New Sound Chamber 😞
I didn't realize you guys made a new one. I was still wondering what happened with the sound chamber and fan tester after you guys did that big reveal video.
@@AltimaNEO 🤔the videos for the New Chamber Install were on the main channel about 4 months ago
Somethingawful forums are still going strong!
Also the guy said Sony's actions now I want to note that Sony's actions are not great by any means they do shady crap 100%. But let's be absolutely 100% real about this
First and foremost it was Microsoft that pushed an was the first to start charging for online multiplayer.
2: Microsoft are the ones that heavily started enforcing the All Digital you don't own NOTHING games Digital only Bundles and consoles.
3: it is also Microsoft that pushed this games as a subscription service crap that led to high quantity low quality games.
4th it is Microsoft that has really popularized online multiplayer an games as a disservice ALWAYS online garbage
Finally you combine all that and you see that that leads to the killing of innovation imagination cultivation of skilled developers anticipation excitement AND OWNERSHIP TO witch SONY and NINTENDO are the ONLY ones keeping all that alive..
All this is WAY WAY WAY Worse.. I'm glad Sony has done the things they have done. Because THEY HAVE OPENED the eyes of people to all this crap and HOW HONESTLY BAD it is..
Honestly if tech keeps moving towards you own nothing, then I will simply transition to, well then I don't buy anything. If I don't own it when I buy it, then I won't buy it.
Hopefully this is the mentality that will prevent us from teetering too hard on the loss of ownership!
You won't buy it, you will rent it instead. 😮
Yep, I will finally get round to playing the 30+ years of retro games on my old PCs, which should be enough to last a number of lifetimes lol
Owning nothing and being happy but on your own terms.
I Hope everyone tries diy open source hardware and similar stuff in the future.
Wendell is who all these tech tubers call when they have a problem with anything, he doesn't get nearly enough credit.
USA might have Silicon valley, but Canada has Techtuber Tarrese
Some may say he's the greatest technician that's ever lived
@@SalemTechsperts Well, well, well. If it isn't the greatest technician that's ever lived **Bass boosted and fried**
@@SalemTechsperts_in the world_
A technician's technician
I particularly enjoy Wendell's content when he is getting enthusiastic over a solution he discovered to a problem that was so niche that only about 0.00000001% of users would ever think to attempt that particular use case. The enthusiasm is just fun to watch.
I agree. His excitement is contagious, in my opinion, and he makes me excited as well, even if I only understand 50% of what he is saying. 😊
Is that percentage 1 person?
@@Turbo_rito gets excitd over somethng pointless, like a 7 year old kid might. i guess soem people find that a good thing haha
wendell reading this: yaaaay!! awww.. YAAAY!!
@@Turbo_rito it's probably close to 100 people out of 8 billion.
Wendell's Box of Oddities sounds like a mystical corner shop. "Come stranger browse my catalog of cast off enterprise gear. All these PCIE lanes could be yours with the right breakout cable."
On point 😂
incredibly eloquent and on point for sure.
We demand more Wendell and Steve.
where do i give my vote here?
Both are the smartest guys in the youtube tech community imo. Love their chats.
They love each other's company which makes for some genuine and hilarious content.
forget about the Steve, just more Wendell. j/k
Stendell and Weve.
I am an engineer in other fields, and I seriously can almost see an information gap that will happen in like 10-15 years.
A lot of old stuff is nicely archived. But these days, EVERYTHING is being shared on either extremely short term ways (discord is a good example) or it's being kept by individual organizations (like YT) don't won't be available anymore some day.
I can already remember certain computer and hardware related websites with an absolute insane amount of information that are gone and lost forever.
It’s basically Gen X and Millennial job security in some fields
Too true. As a younger car guy who plays with antiques old forums are the only way I’m even able to practice my hobby. Slowly it’s gotten harder and harder to find information that I know was posted online decades ago. I don’t look forward to the day where it’s no longer even searchable.
It is worrying how archival has been slipping. I like to keep the ancient art of Tube circuitry alive and i am instinctively saving every single Datasheet and radio Manual (which often had the entire circuit schematic inside) i come across. Cause if any of the sources i normally visit goes poof it takes such information to its grave and the internet archive rarely is able to help. Mostly cause a lot of forums where such data gets shared are the kind that restricts downloads to members.
Thats why decentralisation and federalisation is so important
the absolutely insane amount of information that I've lost forever is called my youtube playlists which feature 70% no longer available videos
I've become paranoid in my saving of videos I really like
If purchasing isn't owning then piracy isn't stealing.
Although I don't know how that's going to work with essentially hardware as a service that we seem to be trundling towards, but I'm sure somebody's going to figure it out
ooo I like this definition
to be fair - piracy wasnt stealing to begin with... its unlicensed copying
stealing always involves one party no longer having a thing that belongs to them
like what sony did
true that
Man... I'm really pessimistic about all of this. I see a lot of people expressing this sentiment of rebellion, but how do you rebel in the rapidly approaching future we are facing when virtually everything (including hardware) is a service you rent?
@@electron6825 well the the next year in europe you can sideload on iphones and ipads, so torrenting movies instead of streaming from netflix
Steve, each time you touch upon the existential threat of the You Own Nothing plan, I feel extremely grateful for your service. Thank you for spreading awareness about this to more people
World Economic Forum don't even attempt to hide their agenda.
Instead they rely completely on the gullibility of people that will quickly say "that's a conspiracy theory"
While ignoring WEF's website, youtube channel and its members.
Makes me happy too be old as dirt, won't be around to see all their plans come to full implementation.
Gonna suck for all those that are younger, but at least they will:
"own nothing and be happy"
Sadly, the consumers will keep consuming and choose blissful ignorance rather than wake up to our sad reality
If only they knew how bad things really are, or he does, and has to censor his channel because YT is trying to deplatform those that know.
Feel the same way and even better to see a like from him on this comment.
It's a plan that goes far beyond gaming.
I host my own Plex server, and my girlfriend thought it was pointless when we have Disney plus or whatever, but then HBO took shows down, and Willow went away from Disney after 7 or 9 or however many weeks, and now she used Plex as much or more than I do. Owning my own data is important to me and it's becoming important to her.
Exactly. I've spent 6 years collecting 4500 movies and 300 tvs shows. And I'm an audiophile and videophile. The compression of streaming sucks. Full bluray remuxes. And for anime especially plex is amazing. Anime is such a pain for some reason. Most streaming sites are legit super bad quality. A lot of stuff is all over different places or can't be watched. Like no thanks. I want all my stuff in one place. And now that hard drives are getting cheaper. It's even better. My next goal is getting 4 18tb drives to add more space since I'm full. And eventually want to get a thread ripper and build a new server and use my old 1070.
I'm dealing with the "Sony remotely deleting products people purchased" problem by never purchasing a Sony product again.
It's a nice thought in isolation but taken to its logical conclusion this results in having nowhere to buy things from
@@bosstowndynamics5488for digital goods that's fine 🏴☠️
@@bosstowndynamics5488 If you dont buy any of their products, they will go bankrupt. That's the point "vote with your money".
@@bosstowndynamics5488Nowhere, like Steam or any other company?
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Correct. And then the high seas. For bad actors.
Any time Wendell is a guest on any tech show, you know it's going to be a great episode.
Wendell is great! Love hosting these together.
This is my first time seeing Wendell and I'm loving this! Steve is ridiculously intelligent about PCs (I say that as someone who has been building PCs and have been in the industry since 1994 - I rocked a 386 SX *with* the math co-processor / FPU ) and Wendell seems equally intelligent which is rare. Their chemistry is perfect, and I hope to see more!
@Zidbits you should lookup all the content with Wendel then, it's basically all gold. Even the intros he does as quick cameos for GN.
@gamers nexus do you have a Wendel play list?
This is why Physical Media must remain a thing, record your digital content to physical storage and when Sony take your digital stuff away, you have a copy of it on physical media.
Almost all exclusive streaming platforms are straight up blocking screen recording as part of their DRM mechanism, but you can still record it using a second device via a HDMI capture card
@@sihamhamda47 or sail the high seas
Right now Asia is like the last bastion of that. Collectables, dvds, cds.. we need to bring that back to the west.. we’re gonna regret it when we blow out the power grid
@@sihamhamda47HDCP exists though. There's ways around this but they aren't so simple as you suggest
Physical media isn't a barrier to corporate control of your media - there's DRM on Blu-ray just as much as there is on streaming, while DRM *doesn't* exist on any digital copy you personally have ripped on your PC regardless of source
Re: Fastest enterprise drives in a gaming PC. Yes do it Wendell, give us the spiritual successor to the 15K SCSI drive tests from back in the day.
Yeah, Steve, I 2nd this, I'd love to see what Wendell can do here, and to have you benchmark it in typical consumer use cases. I'd sure like to know what I'd need (and how much it'd cost) to have superfast storage in a consumer system.
I use a Samsung PM1735 3.2TB PCIe HHHL in my gaming PC. Literally immortal storage.
@@vusun123 I’ve got a 15year old 128gb Intel server ssd as my OS drive.
@@vusun123 Every now and then I look at the price of an Intel 3.2TB P5800X and question if I really need two kidneys.
@@taznz1😂 do it
Wendell is the kind of nerd that other nerds go to for learning.
Steve doesn't pretend he knows everything and doesn't bs anything, i appreciate both guys, they're great
So glad to hear the "You'll Own Nothing and be happy" phrase this needs to be brought out more, its a real threat to all of us, its no logner a conspiracy theory.
Ya, it has to be used to the point of shame for any company. It seems to be spreading, never thought I’d hear it in pc building and stuff. Heard it in the anime sphere..
It’s spreading. Gaming, of course
It is still a conspiracy in regard to who the looney fringe claim is pushing that agenda. The real conspirators are the wealthy and their campaign has been going on for decades. Reduced regulation, consolidation into megacorporations and lower taxes for both companies and wealthy individuals are all part of it.
Indeed
"it's no longer a conspiracy theory" it never was, some people just took it seriously sooner than you did.
It was never a conspiracy theory. There are evil people subverting all of us while we remain in blissful ignorance - consuming and consuming to stay away the sad reality we are trapped in.
When I was doing my material science course I got in arguments 3 times a week with my ethics and environment professor as he was a big fan of Circular Economy which is where this you own nothing idea comes from. He loved the idea of renting everything and was convinced it was better cause you never had to pay big lump sums.
I ended up arguing against him in every assignment I did for that class and in the exam I would answer every question but add why I thought that idea or theory was stupid.
I got 94% in that class and I know from my year tutor that the professor hated my guts and openly shut talked me to the doctorate staff. I know this cause I went out drinking with the doctorate staff.
How refreshing to know there are young minds out there prepared to stand up against the socialists BS of community ownership
Socialists sing loudly about the virtues of collective ownership until a resource scarcity comes, then they get a rude awakening as to how vile human nature can be when it comes to survival and the resource grab starts happening
Once upon a time the title professor meant objectivity, open mindedness, brilliance in taking in a 360 degree view, now it just means an ideology pusher in many cases
Thank you for standing up and at least trying to educate your professor. The fact that he had to diss. you in front of his colleagues meant you clearly were rattling his cage, well done!
The reason why the academia is far left is because it's the easy way. Just do what you're told and they give you a diploma and a desk. Then people go into debt to listen you moan about what you've never practiced personally. It's this search of comfort that makes people go 'educated' if they have it in them to conform enough to get the certificate.
@@varmastiko2908 what...? "You will own nothing and be happy" comes from the WEF which is a right wing libertarian think tank funded by massive corporations while the idea of owning things, right to repair, etc is typically more leftist but covers a wide spectrum and is more organic. Just doing what you're told is not what you do in academia and a lot of professors, especially the economic kind, are right wing.
@@oscarewen9751I understand why you think that. Unfortunately you see a dichotomy where none exists in reality. And specifically libertarianism has nothing to do with WEF other than that the same group of people is behind the creation of both phenomena. These are all psychological products designed to mold your mind in a certain way. In the end there is no difference between the practical manifestations of all ideologies that have a known label. That's because there is ultimately only one ideology by which we are all ruled, and all labels are under the same umbrella, really serving the same purpose. Totalitarianism. Flavors make the different branches seem different but only until you spend a few seconds in honest contemplation of what you actually see.
@@oscarewen9751 I dunno where you live, but it's certainly not a left- or right-wing issue in the US. Both political sides here are owned by the corporations, and primarily exist to keep the majority of people either divided on other issues or outright apathetic to the current political climate, while they slowly grab more and more power.
There might be the occasional populist politician, but it's generally rare to see the left-wing politicians act as anything other than a hive mind, or the right-wing politicians as anything other than a magician promising they'd do things differently if only you voted a few more of them in, while just enough of them vote against their constituents interests regardless of how many it takes.
Well there ya go. You nailed it. When you mentioned the time savings at scale when you moved your benches to NVME from SATA, you more or less explained how crucial enterprise storage speeds are. Multiply your test bench latencies on SATA by a bajillion and you understand why Big Data wants storage throughout as absolutely fast as possible.
15 years ago you’d need a full cabinet of nothing but SAN storage shelves filled with HDDs to reach the speeds that a single NVMe SSD can reach now. It’s nuts.
We understand why big data wants it, yes. The comments about being unsure if it's noticeable were at a consumer level for enterprise -- which is where the blind test will come in!
Wendell has been delivering A+ quality content for a long time, the more involvement he has in the online tech sphere the better. Awesome to see GN working with L1T.
I feel like a lot of this "you'll own nothing" can be fixxed with a healthy dose of "bypassing"- either "changing" or sailing the seas. We just need more people with these skills to get fed up with it.
That won't work. You'd need normal people on board but most people are just fine as long as it's convenient; even if it screws them over.
You can say this but in reality digital has been picking up mainstream popularity since the rise of Steam and sheer popularity of always online f2p games
The mainstream wants the path of least resistance. You stay niche or you stay commercial. Those are the only options. Beyond that, just log off.
stealing does not fix anything. In the old days we all sailed the seas and we will sail again now, but we were the nerds. Normies can't do this
@@Gigi-zr6hpBecause the majority are brain dead consumers who want blissful ignorance
It’s really a lot of fun to watch this dynamic. I love seeing people who love learning, and Steve loves to learn from Wendell!
Local GeForce Now was what NVIDIA called Grid before and the idea was for offices that needed tons of workstations could just buy a single NVIDIA Grid server for the office with enough power for everyone but the cost of ownership was significantly less than a workstation per user.
That’s always the pitch (Citrix is 35 years old after all) but it rarely meets reality especially if you want to stream videos in your remote desktop.
It can be done but it ends up working for a far more narrow set of tasks versus just giving everyone a laptop every three years.
I work for a fairly large company (>10.000 employees), for us it was way more financially feasible to use Nvidia Grid with centralized servers and then have the users access virtualized workstations via their own relatively low power laptop. It's also really handy if you want to outsource some work to a third party. As long as they have devices where the Citrix software runs, you can give them access to your virtualized infrastructure and the cooperation with the outsourced developmemt becomes much more efficient.
(vietnam flashbacks to all forms of thin clients and VDI infrastructure)
@@wowdogeful Hello there, Citrix marketing team
@@marcogenovesi8570our company uses VDI at all our global locations. The lag when running software like Solidworks though is unbearable (even just typing it would miss keystrokes), so all us engineers have laptops with local installations.
In theory, this SHOULD mean that consumer desktops would get more lanes and more pcie slots to take advantage of all this. As opposed to the current trend of low lane counts and only one x16 slot and maybe an x1 or 2 if you're lucky.
In fairness, they actually do have more lanes, just not by as much as we would like
We get more connexion like in 670E chipset from amd but they are from switch.
Cpu x4 lanes to chipset 1 with x8 lanes to chipset 2 with x8 lanes.
So x4 lanes shared by a lot of device.
Technically we have more speed, but most of it is gobbled by one or two lanes. I miss consumer boards with server-like designs.
It's designed that way because most consumer PCs have a single fast GPU and an SSD and the rest of the slots are empty. So they make a 16x GPU slot and a 4x SSD slot and the rest is shared through the PCH. Not a motherboard decision by the way - Intel makes their CPUs like this. The 16+4 lanes are direct to the CPU.
It's been shown you really don't need all 16 GPU lanes, so they also do 8+8 bifurcation for SLI.
I really admire Steve's humility. It really increases his credibility with me.
Whatever you pay him, he's worth twice that. Bring Wendell back far more often. do more homelab projects with him that are "every day prosumer" centric. You guys have good chemistry and both work so well together. DO MORE.
So if he's paying him nothing, that means Wendell is worth nothing? That's so mean, poor Wendell D:
Jokes aside, love Wendell, I am always happy when he makes collabs with my favorite creators!
100% in on a blind test for storage speed
I'd really like to see this too, plus a blind test with Wendell would make for a very entertaining video.
Wendell is brilliant, properly knowledgable but doesn't take himself too seriously, zero ego and just an all round enthusiastic good guy 👍
Wendell is great, he's a walking wealth of knowledge and wholesome energy. He just wants to share is knowledge with the most people possible, and I am so happy to learn. I'm sure he's super excited to play with the sound chamber, super awesome of you guys to work with him.
Thanks for bringing Wendel on. He's the IT guy everyone wants to have at the other end of the support call.
Someone should make a plug-in which checks for if you're about to purchase something digital and then checks a database of services that say "confirmed ownership in the agreement" or "confirmed renting in the agreement" to then inform the user whether or not they're actually going to own what they're about to buy
That actually wouldn't be too bad of an idea, especially if someone could write a localized software or plugin which was AI generated which can instantly sift through any EULA or other document as such and figure that kind of thing out. Bringing that as front and center on every single purchase might make some difference. Having a giant wall of text isn't a meaningful or honest way of "informing people"... but blaring in front of them what they ACTUALLY would want to know, things like ownership rights... that would be more honest and more effective. And honestly something like that could be extended to any number of demanded outputs in a nice list of things someone would care about knowing about a product before purchase.
@@desmondbrown5508 exactly. Right now I can't be bothered to check, and I think most people feel the same, but if people have it clear that they do not own what they buy, and they then decide it's not worth it, it would be felt in the sales numbers, hopefully making companies let us own our stuff. The moment we show me buy only stuff we own, there will be a market for it
It would just confirm no-ownership for everything.
In order for a company to "sell" the same software to multiple customers, and prevent them from just rereleasing the software for free, the company has to *license* the software to the customers instead of outright selling it.
@@edwardfanboy there's probably some anti piracy measures they can deploy
There wouldn't be much point when EVERY service makes it renting.
I hope there will be a SATA successor in the future for consumer level hardware. But it would be terrible if the industry just decided to remove the controller from motherboards and call it a day, leaving you just with the 2 M.2 slots. Even though I have a NAS I still have like 4 SATA SSDs in my daily driver PC.
Check out ASM1166 M.2 adapters, they add a SATA Controller and 6 SATA ports to an M.2 slot. I got a few for future builds, since motherboards are starting to reduce the number of SATA ports onboard
@michaelscarport How much does m.2 to SATA adapters increase the cost compared to having SATA ports already on the motherboard?
Edit: Spelling. And I might as well ad. I guess the adapters are a solution, but with those, I believe there is an additional issue with compatibility and quality. Unfortunately, the adapters aren't that available where I live. Probably have to order from places that have long shipping time.
If all SATA ports are removed from the motherboad maybe things will change where I live. Maybe more retailers will have such adapters in stock. Or niche motherboards will have SATA ports for my use case. Or they will move to the next port or U.2 or other slim SAS connector that can run SATA drives using a cabke, or that new drives will use.
I wouldn't be surprised if 12VO becomes the reason they do that. Their solution to providing SATA power on 12VO sucks, but NVMe doesn't need it. They've made SATA impractical and costly with that change. Next logical step is either getting rid of SATA, or somehow finding a way to dump SAS into consumer equipment as enterprise phases it out... seeing as it might be able to deal with 12VO more elegantly than SATA.
the new threadripper motherboards come with sas connectors for installing drives like the kiokia cm7 so in future just replacing some m2 slots will be an option
We need some way of multiplexing PCIe lanes together, and cheaply, such that a single connector can be used for anything from high end NVMe-drives to high capacity spinning rust. You want the capability of chopping up the bandwidth of a single PCIe4 lane into multiple, so each can feed a drive.
Maybe each connector has pins for 4 lanes, but for driving spinning drives, you have a cable that only has pins for a single lane - and also a active component further down the cable, where it splits into multiple cables, for each of the drives, where a chip for multiplexing lives.
Using only one lane of the four available should make those not used not to be used at different connectors.
I wonder how difficult it might be to adapt U.2 for this use. IIRC it’s a kind of internal-use PCIe over cable.
Love that you guys are doing more videos together. Feels like a great match of channels!
Wow I've never been this early to a video. Love both of your guys' vids! The amount of info I get and how much I learn from you guys is unprecedented
Thank you for the kind words! We'll keep trying to hit that bar!
@GamersNexus btw I used to live in Holly Springs. You look awfully familiar in your younger pics.
Mr. Wendell is always a pleasure to hear from!
I work in enterprise storage and this has been the most enjoyable video of yours I've ever watched, we're dealing with all of this new kit already and nobody's been talking about it until now. Thank you.
Who else is hoping for a future video where Wendell and Steve build an automated GPU test rig using that crazy PCIe card? I certainly am.
there is some danger in full automation, but it can be a useful tool in an arsenal
I really would like to see PCIe lift off even more in the next versions. Imagine a 1GB vram dGPU being fast enough in games, because it could utilize some of the shared 32 GB system ram fast enough finally.
I feel like that's the opposite of where we're heading. We're well past shared memory being helpful except in non gaming situations.@@aladdin8623
It adds latency. Possibly invalidating test results vs. real installation
That would also be awesome for people who use the same PC for work and gaming, you don't need your top video-card you use for work for gaming, it wastes energy, if you could just change the card to a basic one using PCIe controller that would be awesome. Maybe if you have a onboard card and a dedicated one, but only wants to use the onboard one when doing day-to-day activity would be really cool. Imagine having a 4090 plugged in all the time to browse youtube?
I so much agree with you: the current trends are pretty bad, probably the worse time since the beginning of internet. Google getting worse: 100%, Information being kept behind 'login walls' (Facebook, Discord...) and thus not indexed in search engine: totally true. Today finding relevant technical information is pretty difficult. One day you find it and two weeks later it is on page 10 for the same query. Google and co is really playing us every day.
A WHOLE HALF HOUR OF THIS 😍
HALF A WHOLE HOUR OF THIS 😍
I like how Steve and the team determined the original sound chamber was not sufficient, and decided the appropriate action was to build a larger sound chamber. How many would have gone with the Sunk Cost fallacy and just published data with the original sound chamber?
Seriously, how much did the new one cost? Absolutely nuts.
LTT Labs has entered the chat.
@@LoneWanderer905no1 is fighting lol
@@atiedebee1020 might be a bot account. youtube doesn't appear to have a way to report that?
@@Crftbt YT doesn't want bots reported, they are constantly running AI social experiments with the audiance from the video suggestions to hidden comments and AI generated Chinese-scam advertisments. Hell, back in November YT put in an explicit loading delay if it detects that you use Firefox instead of google's Chrome.
Wendell and Steve is the podcast I never knew I wanted. This needs to become a regular thing. This was awesome!
I believe the gen5 SSD issue is caused by the low cost controllers in the consumer market. Those companies really have trouble making money on even the gen4 speeds and gen5 is probably just completely breaking that business model.
4tb gen4 tlcs that push 7+gb/sec go for 200 and under these days lol.
I doubt that the controllers are the problem - if they were then there still should have been a significant performance jump because gen 4 consumer controllers are older, less developed and were also built to be really cheap. Wendell has gone over this in far more detail in other contexts, but the short version he mentioned here still covers it - multilayer flash is just slow, and it's particularly slow from a latency standpoint (which is why Wendell has a massive stockpile of Optane hardware)
@@user-pf4wp1sb5p For the first 20 GB maybe, anything after that will be slow as molasses. Too bad sustained write performance is not standard information in all tech specs. All those "up to" claims are really annoying.
Not to mention the gen 5s I've seen need huge heatsinks and sometimes fans. A lot less hassle to use gen 4
Wendell has such a wealth of knowledge, I genuinely enjoy hearing what he has to say.
Watching you guys brainstorm and just geek out was fun, looking forward to more collaborative content!
I'm really happy that "cloud computing" aged as well as crypto. People realised that they are one wifi bar away from losing access to their entire electronic entertainment. Steam Deck gives you offline access to any game you have, as long as its single player.
No it does not. Even singleplayer games dont work offline unless they are drm free ie games from GoG store.
Any game you have access to via steam?
@@ns-sj7gibut it is also a pc, I can install practically anything I want on it, including non-steam games
And when you get bored with your single player games, you can entertain yourself by huffing the fumes coming out of the Steam Deck to look at all the pretty colors that the headache it brings you
@@sammiller6631 is that why the OLED display looks so colorful and vibrant? O_O
I love this dude…. He literally is the go to for so many content creators when it comes to “hey I have this server question”
Awesome video! I think GN should form an official partnership with Level1Techs and/or in particular with Wendell. Steve and Wendell are both absolute gems in the techtuber community; the more you both cooperative and collaborate on together, the better! :)
The mini private gaming cloud concept is interesting. It would probably remain relatively niche market but most enthusiasts would appreciate it anyways, even if not utilized personally.
Immagine Wendell as your landlord, having a mini private gaming cloud, in like the laundry room of the apartment complex.
I enjoyed this content greatly as well. Thanks Wendel for geekin' out with us. Merry Christmas Guys!
Hell yeah! Seeing you work with Wendell is always awesome
Really do love the technical discussion.
Very interesting!
It's amazing how many different solutions to the same problem there are out there. There's a tendency to make things way too complex.
The basement gaming-rig setup is something I've always been interested in but haven't been able to set up yet.
I love when you guys collaborate, two of the most trusted and knowledgeable channels on youtube joining forces
Definitely need more videos with Wendell! What a great combination.
GN and L1T are my two most-watched tech-anything channels. No BS, respect the viewers time, and you do the work beforehand to bring knowledge and expertise to us. Cheers to you both and best of luck in 2024!
Discord should really give servers an option to be indexed by SEO or something like that. Or give server owners the ability to back up their servers and upload them to a wiki. There’s so much useful knowledge that will be lost when discord dies.
I'm going to rephrase this to represent how Discord sees this situation:
"Discord should really relinquish their control over the asset they make money off of. Imagine how much easier it would be for users to leave them if they allowed user generated content to be moved off platform".
So yeah, it would be nice, but it's never going to happen. The fact that so many communities moved from Reddit to Discord was such a disappointment because Discord has the capacity and motivation to be every bit as bad as Reddit, but also has more lock in/power to do it if/when they choose to.
Always a pleasure when Wendell shows up! This was a great little talk.
These videos are my favorites! Informative and entertaining. I've been watching a lot of the older Wendell and Steve vids and they're so good.
Getting to see a discussion with Golden-Retriever-Wendell is always a treat. Also I love the Star Trek shirt.
Edit: Wendel is a warlock. A really, *really*, friendly warlock and loves to share his hobbies and is usually super excited when that sharing is reciprocated to the point of just a radiating sun worth of energy sharing cool technology. Golden-Retriever of Tech Warlocks.
On the subject of Google search results, for me it has either reached a tipping point where I've suddenly noticed how much worse it is, or it has actually recently gotten much worse. The irrelevance of some of the top results is ridiculous when searching for such simple things.
Very interesting! Thanks for hosting the tech talk!
your collabs with Wendell are always a treat. I'd love regular collabs like this if not a podcast-type show where you guys have conversations like this (i.e., do more videos just like this with him)
I really wish newer desktop CPUs had workstation level of PCIE Lanes. 20-24 really is only good for a gpu and a couple NVME drives or a single x4 pcie addon card. Not to mention that you end up splitting the GPU slot most the time you add any card to another pcie slot. Unsure the process but would love to see 44-48 lanes on next generation of gaming/desktop cpus
THIS! More PCIE lanes for consumer desktops is gravely needed. We needed ~60 lanes 5 years ago... While I don't touch AMD, their Threadripper series always ship with ~64-128 PCIE lanes, just not consumer friendly pricing. It's like paying thousand(s) dollars more for a car trim that includes electric windows or some other feature that should be standard with all cars at this point. It's intentional and it sucks.
I'm so happy to see these things discussed. Finding stuff and getting to a meaningful conversations in the web is now really hard. Maybe it is also that before the process of signing up to a forum didn't feel like much. When now I'm like "I don't want anyone to get any access to my data!"
And as a person who dislikes anything "smart" "app" "subscription", "cloud" and to some extent "touch sceen", the whole world seems like I don't even recognize it anymore. Now I spent so much time to click all the "legitimate interest" -options off while surfing that it's like a job to check every cookie setting. It's like why anyone else is not bothered by things that I despise? I guess they just go with the flow, use mobile a lot and don't care about some small annoyances.
And when taking the context to other stuff it feels like every small great or bad mechanical or electro-mechanical aspect of everyday items are overshadowed by the software that is lacking options/features, is overly "streamlined" and controlled via some cloud/OTA/wireless crap by some company that "optimizes" everything to the level where people are just at the verge of changing brands. Like taking away features, stopping support, turning a working piece of thing to a useless brick because the servers are put down as there's not enough revenue.
If I would ever buy a "viewing license" to a show or a movie with a monthly fee, I would want to know exactly how long the license will last, if I can have my own copy that is viewable off-line (without some proprietary software that'll eventually seize to work, or is changed to a paid thing).
Rant rant rant
Just like me with modern gaming, so many companies are shoving lootboxes,"micro"transactions, buyable currencies (Vbucks ect) or passes into their games I just can't really buy a game from any of the big names anymore....and most people see no issue with it. I just am so glad there are so many indy devs these days I will never run out of interesting things to try. (I miss the days when Horse Armor was the worst of it.....)
@@katarjin Man I just bought that new robocop game on the steam winter sale and I just love the game. But its not just the gameplay or the story, but that its just the game. No BS other crap. It was like buying and playing a game more than a decade ago. It was like someone splashing me with cold water lol it made me realize what I hated about modern gaming and how much I miss those old days of both console and pc gaming. I used to be excited about every new game coming out and just haven't been for sometime now and thought it was because i'm getting older and my interest had waned, but no I still love gaming I just hate what some companies have done to it!
Great format for video - deffo would like more of this!
that thing wendel said at the start… how inspiring
When Wendel comes by, its a good day
Tons of great moments here. Lots to plan for. Thanks!
Always love to see Wendell make the rounds. Plus seeing the intersection of server tech, and gamer tech is cool!!!!
You two together show exactly what is happening to compute in the real world, they are merging or at least getting closer and closer
Steve is the consumer perspective, Wendell the enterprise perspective
What impressed me was neither of you really had a handle on the others domain but that didn't matter, because the both of you let each other explain their domain and together the picture of where computing will merge became apparent, that in essence is what a lot of people want to know, is what I am about to buy going to be obsolete from purchase and is what I have running optimally as it should
The idea that you will own nothing and 'have to pretend to' be happy does not sit well for me, I tried to get my kids to understand that services like Spotify was to their detriment because they will own nothing but alas, they still supported the very service that would ultimately enslave their purchasing rights.
Price competitiveness can only drive prices down so far when matched against increasing demand for performance, the cost of ever increasing technology and complexity means price will outpace manufacturing ability to reduce price, so over time, prices will go up, meaning leased or subscription models will become increasingly the norm.
The only way out of this bind would be if compute power became so advanced that there would be no need of an upgrade for say 8-10 years between technology refreshes, only then would we get off the expensive refresh cycles. While refresh cycles sits around the 3-4 year mark, it's expensive relatively speaking to maintain cutting edge performance without deep pockets. Gamers are typically the exception, most others upgrade only when forced to due to the refresh costs.
The PCIe bus becoming the standard is interesting. VAX/VMS computers from the 80's had a shared memory model across different computers under the VAX/VMS (later OpenVMS) OS. Digital Equipment were masters at creating bridges for inter-connectivity amoungst it's system, it's amusing that 40 years later we might see their vision of shared everything technology finally come to fruition.
I'll take a hard pass on 15 minute cities, eating bugs and owning nothing, or microchips in our bodies. Elon and Gates are NOT friendly.
Please ramble more about CXL! :D Also would be cool to see an Enterprise SSD test for gaming scenarios like the Kioxia CM7 compared to normal consumer SSDs.
Really love videos like these (and Wendell), keep em coming!
Man it feels a lot like we had a golden age of "USB-A is the one and only connector" and now we started to switch to USB-C but are sliding off into "Computers will soon have 38 different connectors" land again, like back in the serial parallel ps/2 scsi etc days.
I love these videos, more Wendell is never a bad thing.
It's so painful working with this kind of sick hardware all day and not being able to talk about it until years after the fact.
Molex NearStack PCIe is sweet, hopefully it comes down in price enough to gain consumer adoption.
I loved this video, loved the hands on approach!!! do more of these!!
my favourite content from both of you is when you team up. absolutely love it
I can't believe how fast things turn to crap nowadays. When I grew up there were no PC's. Then yada yada, we had Google. Anyone with internet can know everything! And now, Google is suddenly quite useless already. Can't have been more than a couple decades. And just the other day as Google frustrated me and I couldn't find anything but commercials and misunderstood garbage, I experienced this weird deja vu that I haven't in a long long time: I wish I had a general lexicon! We used it all the time back in the day.
OMG, more Wendell, you're worse than drug pushes, gradually providing us this appearances now and then, playing on our greatest weakness. 😆❤
Realy enjoyed the chitchat! Nice to see a small but deep discussion!
Happy New Year , all the best Gamer Nexus.
Discord has created multiple problems. 1 is the use of discord as a forum, of which Discord is not meant to be, not usable as such, and not searchable by future people indexed for a search engine. 2 is that Discord has made what once was an, albeit somewhat toxic, online multiplayer gaming landscape where people used open mics and met friends online via a common interest and turned the landscape into a vast expanse of boring places to be that you do not want to spend more time in because people stay in their discord VCs.
I dont understand how its Discord that has managed to get blamed for forums going away, as if they were still popular in 2016. Forums were dying long before Discord was even an idea. Subreddits are more responsible for this than Discord is.
Also, Discord has only helped me meet like-minded people in the games I play. Can't imagine trying to rank up in OW without the buddies I've met on that community server. Same with Apex, same with Mortal Kombat, same with every game I play.
a vast expanse of boring places? Now that's a really edgey hot take from typical internet snobs.
People been using team speak and mumble since 2012. Beta take
@@Xfacta12482 if forums were dying, what were people using instead?
@@WeneedaplagueBOOMER 🫵
Discord becoming the new forums is a horrific problem that we are about to face the consequences of. Thankfully me and many other open source users won't be facing all of the consequences.
However, discord is not searchable at all, even within the server, it's just useless, theres no telling what or who was deleted/removed from a server. And it requires interacting with people, which is not something that forums require. I like being able to pull up a forum and scroll through what other people have talked about, not a fan of having to talk to people in order to figure out what is maybe going on.
And then some will yell at you for asking anyway 😂
> And it requires interacting with people, which is not something that forums require.
There absolutely were forums that made people do this. There are/were a bunch of forums that required you to make an account to view certain sections or to search posts, and sometimes that entailled e-mailing an admin to get your account approved.
And on the flip side, Discord _does_ have a search feature within individual servers, so you can find stuff as long as you're in the relevant server for a topic, it's just a much rougher experience than using a search engine to quickly filter through.
@@j.trades9691 Right up until the discord server has a restructuring or they hide a channel and all the history goes away or becomes inaccessible.
Really enjoyable discussion, thanks Steve and Wendell!
Awesome discussion. Thanks for posting and for all the work and information you dudes are sharing.
Wendell has our sympathies in advance. As a Redshirt, he is not long for this world. We salute your bravery, Wendell!
I think one of the biggest issues right now is a lot of people think when they buy the Physical Copy of a game that even if the whole network goes down they will be able to play that game which is kinda true but how many games these days have Day 1 Patches to fix game breaking bugs and then continual patches for months if not years after. You can probably still get into the game but without all those updates it probably won't be the game you were used to playing and I wouldn't be surprised if sooner then later there isn't much more on the disk then a auth key or base texture info etc.. but that without the internet it isn't really a game at all.
THIS is why dedicated servers are the single most important aspect to gaming, behind DRM free releases.
@@killingtimeitselfChances are we won’t see it. The architecture to enable today’s games rarely exists in a single service anymore, it’s a whole thing that requires expertise to use and has little in the way of consumer friendliness. That alone is used as a (understandable) cudgel to speak to why stand alone servers basically don’t exist anymore, no one wants that support and documentation burden for something that doesn’t bring in money.
i want that support, and many other players do as well. If you can write and host a stand alone server you are 70-90% of the way to having a dedicated server that anyone can boot up and host. There are tons of games, where this still makes sense, really the only one that doesn't would be an MMO and those are all subscription based anyway.
There is almost no excuse for a developer to not release a standalone dedicated server application. @@JollyGiant19
The real hero amongst us gamers is GOG believe it or not. Yeah, it may be a digital distribution platform but their business model is that they prioritize gamers rights before anything else.
Great video, thank you so much for all the hard work you guys do :)
Wendell's information per second is astounding , so much knowledge . would love more detailed focus on specific feature optimization , jumping around was entertaining tho challenging to keep up .
I thought huffing Steamdeck exhaust fumes was the future?
I feel that at least on consumer side, there's just little incentive in general to increase speed over capacity these days, since there's plenty of speed even on a SATA SSD for the average user, let alone on a PCIe 3 NVMe. And then again, even for capacity - everyone wants to instead lock you into their walled garden with streaming and cloud storage anyway... which, I assume, would still be physically limited by HDDs in a large part.
Latency would be the biggest advantage, it has a big impact on day to day use in a similar way to a high refresh rate monitor.
I agree with Steve when he says that seconds might add up and becoming a significant amount of time, in my job we render frames from 3D rendering softwares and I notice we care a lot about the time "in between" the frame, to generate subdivision, load everything before rendering, and this time is mostly managed by storage and ram. Good stuff that they are pushing boundaries and finding solutions here, even though current server stuff are pretty crazy fast, on my personnal computer I'ld like to see these time reduce for heavy scenes.
Really fun and interesting chat, learned a lot
Never thought I'd see politics on this channel even in healthy microdoses like this but I am SO glad you are touching on this subject. Us gamers/PC folk have mostly been blissfully unaware (most likely by design to keep us ignorant) of the world goings ons until 2017 when we all became shellshocked into clown world, but there are powers tha be like the WEF and Gates who want sinister things for us in THEIR future, not OUR future. Wake up folks. Keep doing what you are doing, husband and I love the channel. Merry Christmas! 🎄💕🇺🇲
We need more PCIe lanes, and quad channel memory on consumer boards. They need to support a 12x pcie connection for GPU to free up more lanes for storage or a second GPU.
This is why you're a consumer and not a manufacturer
The average consumer needs none of that.
I can get behind more PCIE lanes, but quad channel memory is still kinda niche.
@@JustSomeDinosaurPerson It's really not. It's old at this point, just haven't brought it to consumer boards despite jacking consumer mobo prices through the roof. Look at CAS latency on DDR5, it's double latency of DDR4.
@@Bob_Smith19 Average consumer doesn't need improvement huh?
00:00 🔌 *Introduction to PCIe Innovations*
- Discussing the changing role of PCIe in modern systems.
- Introduction to various PCIe-related topics.
01:09 💽 *Gen 5 SSDs and Their Advantages*
- Exploring Gen 5 SSDs and their capabilities.
- Addressing the differences between consumer and enterprise-grade drives.
- Highlighting the issues of latency and performance in Gen 5 SSDs.
03:00 🧩 *PCIe Form Factors and Connectivity*
- Discussing different PCIe form factors like E1S and E3S.
- Exploring the benefits of these form factors, including power and connectivity options.
- Mentioning the potential adoption of these form factors in consumer devices.
05:20 🚀 *PCIe as a Universal Interconnect*
- Highlighting the significance of PCIe as a standard communication option.
- Discussing the advantages of PCIe for various use cases, including direct memory access (DMA) and low latency.
- Exploring the potential for PCIe to revolutionize data communication.
08:48 📡 *Thunderbolt and PCIe in Consumer Devices*
- Discussing the integration of Thunderbolt and oculink connectors in consumer devices.
- Addressing the challenges of cable insertion cycles and signal integrity.
- Highlighting the potential of oculink connectors for Gen 5 and Gen 6 PCIe connections.
12:00 🔌 *Reliability of PCIe Connections*
- Explaining the importance of reliable PCIe connections.
- Discussing the issues that can arise from unreliable connections, including stuttering and incorrect information.
- Emphasizing the benefits of standardized and reliable PCIe connections.
16:11 🎮 *Automated Testing with PCIe*
- Discussing the use of PCIe for automated testing in game development and software testing.
- Exploring the potential of using PCIe to swap GPUs and perform real-world tests.
- Highlighting the flexibility and ease of use provided by standardized PCIe connections.
19:22 🖥️ *The Future of Home Computing and Virtualization*
- Discussion about the potential of virtualization for home computing.
- Imagining a future where your home computer is a remote box in the basement.
- Unlocking GPU virtualization for gaming on home computers.
20:44 🎮 *Concerns about Ownership and Subscription Models*
- Expressing concerns about the trend of moving away from ownership.
- Mentioning GeForce Now and its impact on low-end market access.
- Highlighting examples like Sony turning off content access.
26:36 🔄 *The Pendulum Swing in Online Services*
- Discussing the cyclical nature of online services, with pendulum swings.
- Talking about the decline in quality of large consolidated services.
- Highlighting the value of community-driven content curation and forums.
29:45 💻 *Challenges with Online Search and Content Retrieval*
- Addressing issues with online search, especially when troubleshooting.
- Mentioning difficulties in finding specific information in videos.
- Discussing the limitations of AI-generated content for search results.
Two of my fav Tech Tubers in one spot. I love these collabs.
My current frustration with pcie is that I have 3.0 x8 cards in 5.0 x4 slots, I'd love to have a conversion card that can just convert between the two... and give the card full speed....
The discussion about linux and gaming.... Migh just go for the 7900xtx.
The steamdeck hasn't given me weird stuttering, so the possible dxnavi issue won't be that relevant ...
The advantage of the 7900xtx is that it is the only current consumer card supported by ROCm.
Although AMD's erratic management of that segment can't be counted on to keep supporting it for any reasonable period of time, they don't make any date assurances and have been known to drop rather new cards, including professional-line hardware, without warning.
@@mytech6779AMD ROCm is so unreliable and badly supported it may aswell not exist for 95% of people
@@mytech6779
as an owner of a 7900xtx, what does this mean.
What can I do with ROCm
@@KuntChitface General purpose mathematical computations. IOW use the GPU as an accelerator for various sorts of massively parallizable calculations. Common in scientific research. A GPU can do suitable tasks 100× faster and more energy efficient than a CPU. Normally these tasks are big, where they are expecting to wait hours or even weeks for the machine to return the final results.
But not all tasks are suitable. GPUs are especially bad for things with a high proportion of conditional branching; they like straight forward math. Like a train everybody needs to be going to the same place at the same time. CPUs are more like a car, they are faster for a few people and go on their own schedule.
For small chunks of math you waste more time transferring it to and from the GPU than to just do it in CPU.
@@KuntChitface Do you know what nVidia CUDA is used for? ROCm has a similar purpose.
CUDA has been the primary tool in the category for many years so there is more information availible about it.
If you use an enterprise SSD on a consumer motherboard with a U.2 or U.3 expansion card for example will the performance be reduced, or are the benefits mentioned here on the ssd and ssd controller itself?
Nope should be fine unless maybe you attatch the really good ones like the optanes to your chipset rather than ur cpu pcie lanes.
I loved listening to this conversation.
Always love it when have Wendell on to talk about new tech.
Maybe now we can finally get pcie bifurcation and mobos with more than three pcie slots for consumers. (If I want more than 1 or 2 nvme I'll just by an add in card, I really don't need 5 nvme slots on the board)
What does pcie bifurcation offer? My b550 motherboard has it. I know what it does but I'm not sure how useful it is.
@@LZeugirdor You know those PCIE to NVME adapters with multiple M.2 drives on it? Bifurication allows a PCIE slot to be split into multiple lanes so all those M.2 drives will be addressed separately.
@@sovereigntyofvoyagers7380 ah alright ty
You'll still need for consumer CPU's to support more than 20 PCIe lanes if you want to have a good use of those three PCIe slots.