Horsepower Is Irrelevant (To Your Rod Bolts)
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- When can you reuse a rod bolt, and does horsepower (or more usefully cylinder pressure) matter when it comes to selecting the correct rod bolt material?
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Chris Raschke of ARP runs us through the ins and outs of these questions and more including some insight into the materials ARP commonly use for rod bolts, being 8740 ally chrome moly (aka chromoly) steel, ARP2000, L19, Custom Age 625+, MP-35 etc
When is it OK to reuse an ARP rod bolt, what is hydrogen embrittlement/stress corrosion and why is it important to use a known lubricant on your rod bolts rather than just some random oil off the shelf are all topics Chris helps us to understand via the @arpfasteners stand at the @semashow
While gloves are worn by many engine builders by choice, they are not strictly required save for some specific materials which is also discussed in relation to the likes of custom age 625+ and L19 etc.
NOTE: At 13-50 Andre states the 'plastic area' instead of 'elastic area'. If it was the plastic area/region, it would not return to shape and the bolts would not be reusable as Chris and Andre are discussing. Sorry for that slip of the tongue.
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Overlook These At Your Peril
0:20 - Connecting Rod Bolts
1:30 - Material Load Calculations & Choice
2:11 - Horsepower Is Irrelevant To Bolts
3:08 - Price & Rod Design
4:18 - What Is Hydrogen Embrittlement/Stress Corrosion
5:53 - Gloves Are A Safe Bet Here
6:32 - Head Stud Application
6:58 - How A Fastener Actually Works | Torque Vs Stretch etc
10:02 - Lubricant & Friction Coefficient
11:38 - Bearing Journal Distortion & Rod Bolt Upgrade Considerations
12:30 - Small Block Vs Big Block Chev Example
12:57 - Rod Bolt Life Expectancy/Replacement
14:30 - Thumbs Up, Sub, Free Lesson
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TAGS:
#highperformanceacademy #arpbolts ##learntotunearpfasteners #semashow #sema #rodbolts #bolts #fasteners #enginebuilding101 #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #dieseltuning #datanerd #gofasterwithdata #racecraft #learndriveoptimise #motorsport #techtalk - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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At the race track no one knows when your fasteners are too strong, everyone knows when they're not strong enough.
Within reason, absolutely! For the cost of a performance engine build on the whole, they are cheap insurance really.
It's always easy to tell people they should spend their own money rather than ours for sure though, but we do practice what we preach when it comes to fasteners 😉 - Taz.
I've used nothing but ARP on all the stuff that matters. Head studs, main studs, rod bolts, and flex plate bolts. Safety first. 😎👍
I have the same :D just the arp2000 though
@@timvanderstarre9021 Same. 2000s all the way through. 😎👍
The amount of nuanced but valuable information on this channel is insane...great stuff
I think at 13:50, you wanted to say "elastic area" instead of "plastic area".
Yes you are correct, slip of the tongue there. Guessing his mind skipped ahead to the next example. Thanks for mentioning that, I added a note and will change the subtitle - Taz.
It’s great that Andre can interview someone and ask the correct questions in a technical way and the person being interviewed knows that and responds well and with the answers we need to know. 👍
I’ve been known to go without meals to save the money for ARP bolts and studs. Been using them for over 40 years!
I learned this the hard way. I used A1 rod bolts in my 2.0L LSJ rebuild as ARP didn't offer bolts for the stock rods. Long story short...one rod bolt let go and trashed the whole lower end including the block.
Hardness comes with a price: decreased plasticity/increased brittleness. Latest tech for surface hardening using lasers is brilliant: you can treat cam lobes, bearing journals etc and not the entire part.
May not be terrible to have increased brittleness when you are in a short term use application where engine rebuilds are very common
Induction hardening does the same thing.
This is great and I want part 2 on head bolts.
Not that I do any engine building, but I'd never thought about replacing rod bolts and going out of round in the process. Great interview indeed.
Thanks to Chris and Andre for breaking these issues down and delivering the info in a way that even Basic Betty's can comprehend. Fantastic work!
The thing I would say about doing ARP fasteners install of them or hand all to the machine shop that you are doing any work on your engine so that things won't change after you build the engine.
Thank you for shared knowledge.
Good interview my man.
Cheers!
So. Make sure and use the lube supplied by ARP when using ARP fasteners. Resist the temptation to use anti-seize compound.
CARR rod bolts @ 285 KSI for the win!
Awesome vid …. Don’t understand all of it but interesting 👌🏻
Very interesting stuff
Cheer Tom, glad you enjoyed this one 😎 - Taz.
What would you think about a product called Gibbs to apply to the parts before you assemble them, you could even wipe it down and it will resist moisture invasion quite well for quite a long time. Maybe the guys at a RP might want to look into that as a suggestion for engine builders.
I second the “I’ve used nothing but ARP”
Same here same here
I am already using ARP bolts for my heads, rods, mains,and will probably use them for my exhaust manifolds, and intake manifold.
I have found their bolts are superior quality compared to stock bolts or most parts store bolts.
I've hard parts store bolts break during installation. Never had that with ARP
so high revving engine is the proper application as opposed to making vast amounts of power?
I have twin turbo coyote and every single nut, bolt and stud in my engine is ARP. even the flywheel bolts.
While this is interesting, unless a individual is upgrading or designing a reciprocating assembly, (connecting rods), I believe it best to defer the selection of connecting rod hardware to the entity designing / preparing / manufacturing the connecting rods, as it is intrinsic to that process.
That’s not to say, that, the person installing the connecting rods shouldn’t be knowledgeable of the nuances of installation.
A conversation / presentation, I would like to see, would be a examination of hardware selection and application, regarding hole specifications and requirements, fastener selection and sizing, the system of identification of fastener specifications, importance of washer stack up, etc..
Another fascinating and informative presentation, all the same.
Let's say you're building an NA, high rpm small block Ford with a very light reciprocating assembly. Since the bobweight is relatively little, does that mean you can get by with entry-level fasteners? At that point, wouldn't you spend the extra money for the added insurance of better bolt material? Great content as usual Andre.
It's tricky as technically you could spend more on just about any part in your engine to upgrade it for a little extra insurance. Where do you draw the line when it comes to what you need vs what is just nice to have but 'overkill'? We all only have finite budgets after all that we want to spend wisely.
Only you can answer that based off your load calculations and how that stacks up against your options along with advice from quality parts suppliers - Taz.
@@hpa101 Thanks Taz. It seems prudent to spend a little more money for piece of mind. The content on this channel is top notch.
This guy knows a thing or two about bolts!
Maybe even 3 things! Always a pleasure to chat to people like this 😎 - Taz
is it relevant how fast the engine change its revs? like an lfa engine vs an ls v8 ?
I use arp bolts for all motors I put toghether! But what if you have an application like flywheel bolts, that require loctite. Should you use the arp paste or loctite?
…………… loctite please.
@@Rekoyl116 agreed, i always lean on the spec of the manufacturer
never considered this. makes sense to use loctite
Loctite functions as a thread sealer in some applications so you may end up with a leak if you don’t use it
Talking about rod or main bearing cap bolts and assuming we then have the engine machined accordingly, is there any downside in using a superior quality/clamp load bolt (it can even be within the ARP range, say 625 over ARP2000) in an application where an ARP2000 would easily do the job well?
No real downside, although extra clamping force can cause distortion in clamped parts, to the point where cracks appear in parts
Damn, i am sooo curious how does ultra torque lube compares to MoS2 CV axle grease.
I suspect they are similar, the ARP stuff is either in a tiny pouch or you have to get a small jug, which is enough for 20 engines.
I suspect they’re very similar if not identical. That said, they provide enough lube with the fasteners to do an install.
All materials are elastic to some extent, that means they can be stretched and squeezed under stress (applied force).
So it may help to understand the distortion of the main bearing and connecting rod bores with high strength fasteners if you think of them being like a section of rubber - when you squeeze it it bulges to the sides. This is what happens to the steel or aluminium (aluminum to the Americans) parts being bolted together, the metal is squeezed out a small amount all around and distorts the bore close to the fasteners.
This is made even worse because most studs are a fine thread and the OEM bolts are usually a coarse thread, the finer thread applies a higher tensile load (squeeze), for the same torque, as a coarse thread can - and often the torque is also increased, to add to that.
Rather disappointed that this gentleman, who works with fasteners as his job uses the WRONG TERM - ft.lbs is the terminology for WORK DONE, and NOT torque, which is lb.ft! They are NOT the same thing, they are NOT interchagable! This seems to be an 'American thing, but I have seen it used correctly.
no, the correct terminology would be to use SI and not ancient systems used by like 3% of the planet.
@@francoisloriot2674
Duh - context, dude.
I've been using SI for over 50 years now, academically and professionally, and while SI is SO much simpler and easier to use that's besides the point, which was the incorrect terminalogy for the Imperial metrology used.
You, personally, may find it useful to 'brush up' on your use of the english language, which is used by billions of people, as you're not using it correctly.
@@gordowg1wg145 You fail to recognize that I was teasing. And regarding brushing up my English skills, well it's not my native language but I think I'm not doing too bad. I work in IT for 26 years now using mainly English and no one has complained so far :)
@@francoisloriot2674
I did, indeed, miss that - I took it as another rant against "Imperial" measurements. I can use it reasonably well, but that ft.lbs instead of lbs.ft does tend to trigger me - especially when people should know better. Same thing when "Americans" make nonsense claims, like "reduced friction by 250%"
Ah, I thought that might be the case - native french speaker? My french is barely understandable from my school days - and you know what 'schoolboy french' is like 😞
@@gordowg1wg145 yes french. and yes I know what you mean, we sometimes have to deal with that here in Quebec. And English vs French speaking people friction still exists believe it or not after more than 400 years.
Isn't the difference between rods & caps a factor for deflection? Im sure there would be a small difference between rods & caps clearance because they aren't all exactly the same .
might sound like a strange question, but what speed should you be tourquing your bolts .. slow or moderate, obviously not flat out
Slow and steady
Do you guys follow the ARP torque setting? Or keep torquing till you reach the recommended stretch?
I always seem to have to overtorque thema bit to reach the correct stretch.
Well, Chris was saying that actually the best way to check if you're properly fastening a bolt to a specific clamp load is to measure its stretch, as torque values can change depending on the bolt hole thread's condition or type of lubricant used for example.
PS: interesting stuff, as I never thought how those factors could influence the torque value (not so much at least), although makes sense.
Always using ARP torque setting and ARP lubricant in perfectly clean threads when dealing with conrod bolts
The stretch measurement always over-rules the recommended torque. Lots of things affect how the torque translates to pre-load, but the stretch (if measured correctly) is irregardless of that .
Hi, what is best for turbine inlet and exhaust manifold nuts and studs? Do you prefer titanium fasteners or steel or the copper lock nuts? what do you suggest?
Probably want to avoid Ti for this application for strength and galling reasons. There's stainless fasteners made for 1200F service, and Incoloy products for even higher temps, I'd try to use those. And use a good high-temp anti-seize to prevent "locking" of the thread mate.
Inconel 718 is usually the best choice for exhaust manifold and turbine fasteners.
I wonder if putting the bolts 90 degrees to the bore (aka horizontal VS normal vertical) would give any added strength
.
Would be a pain to tighten lol
And might just stress the bolt in a different way (bend VS stretch)
Bolts never work under shear stress, only tensile stress. What keeps the two parts from moving is the friction generated by the clamping pressure.
Look up T34 engine rebuild, it has horizontal pins on forked rods.
Hi!
Question: Is it advisable or not to use a thread-locking compound on the rod bolt threads? If not, what lube does ARP recommend for the rod-bolts?
Arp has their own lube you use, its all in the instructions of whatever you buy
ARP fasteners come with their own proprietary lube
KSI PSI .. on torquing bolts??
thouse bolts is good for 100 000 rpm of crank as speed
Hi, we have some issue with ARP delay specially overseas. What about you?
We haven't ordered any recently but a lot of parts and components are seeing supply and shipping delays in general - Taz
I've been waiting a year for my headstuds. Keep getting backordered
@@BoostedSpeedDemon Damn! One year? Do they work or supply Space X or what?
@@alundrasrt I'm not sure, I heard it has to do with a lack of US manufacturing for fasteners, and the restrictions that have been put on importation from certain countries affecting our metal supply.
@@BoostedSpeedDemon Thanks mate. Take care
Very few people use gloves on install
The one thing that is strange as where I have been a machinist all my life is how language is changing so much I manufactured jet engine parts and when breaking in to the trade as a apprentice we used manual machines know as Hand Screw Machine and Hand Chuckers so Screw is not an offensive word and ether weather you are cuting a screw or roll threadind then so why did someone change of a screw or bolt to a fastener to me it doesn't make any sense the school was a school and the both of the bolt
Language always has and always will change and evolve. That simple. Put you minds energy into more important things and embrace the change, or forever be frustrated by something you can't stop (change) 😎 - Taz
No mention of angle tightening method ? More accurate than torque method.
@AM starting torque is used to get the slack of the connection, consistently.
Anyone learning how to build engines via HPA will not miss this and many other topics not discussed here, rest assured 😎
We by no means covered every topic in existence in relation to fasteners here and don't claim to, nor is that a realistic goal for an interview. But, that is something we certainly do cover in the engine-building course material over at www.hpacademy.com - Taz.
Angle tightening is mostly used when torque tightening is no more relevant. For example, your are torque tightening cylinder head bolts. You begin with that tightening torque for the first (center) bolts but as you apply that same torque to other bolts you are changing the constraints that apply to the bolts you tightened first. There the tightening torque is no more relevant for these bolts (could have been released or increased) and that's the reason for which next tightening passes are based on angle and no more on friction torque.
I’m confused hydrogen embrittlement more prone on 625 or l19?
L19. ARP generally supply gloves with those parts too which makes it easier to just pop them on and not have to worry - Taz
@@hpa101 thank you very much!
05:51 😳
Its funny how this video just makes me more worried about their products.
Ok, not really but if I was ARP salesman I’d keep it more simple.
Doesn't it rather show they really understand the materials they are working with so you know you can trust their guidance and advice? That's what I picked up noting he isn't doing a sales pitch, it's a technical discussion.
A sales pitch would be very different for sure, I agree there and he would be asking YOU the questions to find the right product for your application rather than being grilled by us 😎 - Taz
Reality is not always simple...
Strissed? 😂
It's not I.R.P it's A.R.P
hhh
The more you know.
theyre stood so close together lol
Which is AWESOME as then you can make a vertical version of the interview that doesn't look terrible.
Naturally, most people move back from the mic and Andre ends up almost chasing them down (in slow shuffle motion) as his arm ends up extending further and further away as the cameraman constantly re-centers the shot to match as well 😂 - Taz.