I don't care who's right, it sparks discussion and you've shared your efforts and findings...my only concern or whatever is whether it's ok to buy something single use like this and return it, but of course that's your choice/ethical decision :) thanks for sharing
@@WilliamDouglasCo Haha, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Basic science has certain criteria and you've met those with the constant stuff like length of the board and other crap, it's all basic but does the job! As another commenter said, I think it would save money and effort unless the screws/bolts are removed lots
Come on, you’ve never bought something, used it, and returned it? I find that hard to believe. Also, when it’s big box stores who cares. That’s free market capitalism at work. 😃
@@clashofphish I kind of agree with the capitalism but many stores need to send the items back once used/returned in most cases. If it were me, I'd find something to borrow and be prepared to spend the money if it breaks to replace said item. My friend, for example, tried the Dyson bladeless fan, having been impressed from a relatives. His was shit and so was the replacement, so sent back and replaced with a cheap-o which did as good a job it seems :) point is like me, he didn't purchase it with the intention to use once knowing it'll be returned. I return things which don't work or wrong purchase which I hold my hands up to-like the wrong usb charger the other day. I've never bought with the intent on using something knowing I'll return it after, no
I think where the inserts come into play is if you have a piece that’s going to be taken down and put back together, let’s say, 10 times in its life. Wood threads may get pretty worked over.
Exactly my thoughts from the beginning. The whole point is breakdown and reassembly. If I didn’t need to do that I wouldn’t be tapping threads into hardwood. I’d just use a more common fixing technique.
This is very easy to test but I would disagree with your expectation. When you remove and reinsert a bolt, you place almost no strain on the female threads that you tapped. I wouldn't expect to find any meaningful difference in freshly tapped threads vs. threads that had seen the same bolt 20 times. Maybe 20 *different* bolts would tear things up a little but the same bolt (most likely circumstance) should be a non issue.
@@StormGod29 that’s fair. I don’t know which would ultimately work better or the same. Maybe it’s neither here nor there. I just think that was the thought process behind the inserts. Nothing more. Be well
Having worked with FIRA ( the furniture industry research association ) on a number of testing projects you would never test using that action you used. Testing thread strength must be done with a straight pull not leverage as you used. A simple test is to place a piece of tube over the thread and use a screw/bolt and washer to pull against the tube whilst using a torque wrench to measure the force. I have tested many threads with and without inserts and in general you will find that you need more depth of thread when going straight into the wood. This is because the holding power of the larger thread of the insert is greater. I have to say that the whole point of using brass/ stainless steel threaded inserts is to allowed easy disaassembly of 'KD' furniture without wear on the threads. If you don't want to use inserts why not simply use woodscrews. There is quite a range of head types available which are more attractive than standard pozidrives or phillips.
Thanks for making this video and doing the tests. I’m a guitar maker (electric guitars) and I’ve seen people use the brass inserts in guitar necks as a means of attaching them to the guitar bodies. I know it’s a tried and tested thing but there has always been a doubt in the back of my mind that they may fail. I have pondered it for too long but you have helped me decide that I could use them but also that I could tap the holes into the guitar neck. I feel an experiment of my own coming on. I think the inserts are also available in steel, maybe stainless. Thanks again, you have a new follower. ✊
As an engineer who spent a while designing tests to determine the mechanical properties of little plastic widgets, I would be happy to have a conversation about why your wood likely snapped and how your test design didn’t quite test what you set out to. The reasons are related to the angles of forces you applied, but a worthwhile explanation is a bit much for a comment and only worth the time if you are actually interested.
Amen. Especially with hardwood, those inserts are unnecessary. The only thing I think they are really needed is when building something out of softwood that you will repeatedly take apart and put together... Like in certain jigs or other shop projects. Or if you're customer is going to take their piece apart a bunch just because the wood can get worn out and inserts can be replaced if they pop out from over usage. But, most people getting started with woodworking from watching CZcams must think threaded inserts are super important because everyone is always talking about them lol.
I built a sim racing rig out of 2x4s, and I used a ton of inserts for this reason exactly. I had to disassemble it to get into the basement, and obviously pine isn't going to hold threads very well. I got the cheap inserts too, whole project was $12 in inserts, not that bad.
This should not have been a video by itself, sorry Will. All you did was prove that if you drill a ton of holes in a row then a piece of wood will break easily. If you want to prove anything, cut a bunch of pieces of hardwood all the same size, put a hole in the middle of each one, and try the test again
I use them to prevent the threads from being stripped if its taken apart a few times, you could test which one strips the wood first by tightening a bolt into bare wood vs a brass insert with a torque wrench
I am studying to become a civil engineer specialising in wooden structures and also am a trained furniture maker. In my studies we have a whole course dedicated to the different methods to connect wood with anything. I can tell you with full confidence, that there are enough times where you will need the brass inserts, where pure wooden threads would fail way sooner. The biggest difference or easiest to grasp difference between the two is the threads themselves, which are ideally way bigger and 'spread out more' on the brass inserts, which, mathematically, allows for other factors to come into play, thus changing the final forces the two can withstand. Which brings me to my next point, which is the direction of the force. You twisted the screw around the furthest point where the two woods were touching, so the screw just pushed to the side. Of course the wood is breaking with that kind of setup, because it can't withhold the horizontal pressure way before the vertical pressure even comes into play. Also the wooden threads would still be way easier to pull out vertically, because of my first point. Which brings me to my last: the type of wood used. It so much depends on which kind of wood you are using. So in conclusion: sorry, but you do need those.
Thought someone would have mentioned this. The test setup applies lateral force to the bolt as well as vertical force. The wood pulling up is working as a lever to pry the bolt out at an angle. This is why the wood split. You just need a different test method that applies only vertical force. I still think what everyone else has said here though. Softwoods they are good as well as multiple disassembles. Hardwoods and to just keep it together likely the taps are a cheaper and just as good way to go
Brass inserts are only good for items that will have the bolts repeatedly used. Also, you install those inserts upside down; the slotted ended goes in first, it’s not mean for a screwdriver.
I see people saying it isnt as stable as the brass, throw a couple drops of minwax wood hardener in there and it will be just fine. Resin stabilized wood would be incredibly resilient to being taken up and put back together.
I really enjoy your videos and frankly I do find that just bc there is an option to use something, doesn’t mean that you have to. In my mind there is not real right or wrong, it is about doing what YOU want to do on YOUR projects. Keep preaching the good sawdust word!👊🏾
Reenforcing the wood threads with super glue, or wood glue and forcing it into the treads with the fastner (but remove it quickly and clean) will make the threads last longer.
I suspect the reason the wood split is because you have multiple holes drilled in line and close to one another. This weakens the board and makes it likely to split or completely break. It would be interesting to repeat the test but with 8 individual boards, each having one hole drilled through.
Haha man that’s 3 days I’ll never get back but I think I’ve reaching a lot of people and helped woodworkers see another way. A better way. A cheaper way. That’s all I wanted to do.. help new woodworkers
Really didn't prove anything... the wood cracked because you essentially cantilevered a giant beam out and used a ton of leverage on the attachment point to twist the board and warp it. If you really wanted to know the results of this test you'd need to use a very thick piece of wood and pull on the tapped/inserted portion with a tremendous amount of force in an IN-LINE direction. Anyways, they're both essentially using thread tapped wood to stay in place so the difference would be very negligible. The super glued insert would probably be a slight bit stronger, but the tapped threads would likely be stronger in practice because there's a good chance you're going to tap a deeper hole and use a longer bolt to get more thread engagement.
Cool test, but turn the wood 90 degrees to make the grain go the other way. That way the long fibers have little stress. Also, put the clamps right next to your lever to mitigate the torque on the fibers. Another trip to Target, and do it again.
to really determine this a substantial block of wood would be necessary, but it does seem obviously true that the brass inserts are a total waste. love it.
Interesting results. Though I would say that they are inconclusive for thicker material where the threads are more likely to pull out before the wood splits. It does show that for thin stock that the wood would be the weak point not the threads. But results may also change if the screw spacing was changed. As each hole is a weak point in the wood for a stress concentration to form. Though the spacing may already be sufficiently large to not matter much.
@William Douglas Co if you ever do run this test again in addition to thicker wood I am interested to see a freshly tapped screw/wood connection and a connection where the screw was run in and out to a typical application torque like 30-50 times. How do wood threads hold up over time and with use?
@@WilliamDouglasCo You should take more credit in all fairness, irrespective of your formal education. Perhaps you're being humble... but as a wood worker we are problem solvers. Science simply comes down to observation and experimentation- testing and hypothesising.
Good idea, but by drilling all the holes in a line parallel to the grain you just re-created spiral bound paper perforations intended to break. I'd like to see you re-create this experiment but with only one bolt per board.
The only time I ever use the inserts is when I am making a jig with adjustment screws. I try to not use screws on pieces I build. But I build normally smaller furniture items. On a table or bed... Well, doweling everything is fin and all, but... yeah. LOL
Threaded inserts are nothing more than a single use thread tap that has internal threads. The only difference between what you do and what a threaded insert does really depends on the shape and type of thread you are using. Threaded inserts usually have a larger relative thread diameter to body diameter. Nice job.
I did this when mounting a vice to a workbench. I had drill a hole into the wood that was smaller than the bolt i was using. I then tighten the bolt down into the hole letting the threads of the bolt do the work . So far it has held up great.
The brass inserts have threads, the screws have threads, either way there are threads involved. I think the difference comes in the kinds of threads and it seems to me softer and composite woods may react differently. At the point where I think about using the inserts on this sort of thing I will do some of my own tests. Thanks for questioning this practice. I am always amazed how strong hardwood is. 👍🏼👍🏼
I agree, wood tape fine. I always dribble thin CA in the tapped holes to firm up the wood. The only potential issue, as others have said, is when screws are frequently removed and re-inserted. Fortunately, this can always be fixed by drilling the holes out and using inserts later.
I was expecting the scale to break first lol... But great video, been wanting to do the same as well but some say it works, some say no, so yeah probably should try it as well lol
I may be wrong, but seems to me like you did not really measure anything here because all the holes for the inserts weakened the wood across its middle, so all that was proven is that the threads are stronger than the weak lignen that bonds the wood fibers. Since wood is strong along its fibers and much less so across the fibers, perhaps the test would be more interesting if you turned the piece 90 degrees, so that the holds are drilled on a cross-cut line, rather than on a rip-line. That way, the long fibers will be resisting your force, which are much much stronger than the resin that binds long fibers together. Please let me know if I am wrong. Thanks, regardless :)
Just a tip: they sell some bits that are supposed to drill the hole and make the threads at the same time. You know? I have some and I never used them like this, I make the holes a bit smaller and then use them to make the threads. And I always use them with the drill, they didn't even have the square part for the manual thingy. Now I'm starting to see those being used even on steel! With lathes and so on. And they seem to spit out the shavings easily, because of the "drillbit like cuts". You know? So you don't need to keep going on and off with them each 1/16". Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I'm glad you made this video. I would like to see a more in-depth and accurate testing method and i think since you got the ball rolling it won't be long before somebody runs with it. Kudos.
I get that it's just as strong force wise, but if you're thinking long term with you projects, maybe the inserts are better? If someone were to remove the legs from a table top to refinish it every few years, maybe the threaded wood will wear out?
That’s an interesting thought and you could be right but I wouldn’t worry about that. Brass threads are inherently soft and can easily got worn out and cross threaded if not careful so I think it’s still an equal
@@WilliamDouglasCo I agree brass is not that strong but I use stainless steel ones. I would say those will outlast wood for sure if they are taken apart and put together often.
Been doing the same for years and have been very satisfied. I see “special wood taps” for sale lately but have a draw full of metal taps from my toolmaker days. No reason to switch.
It looked like the board was splitting with the grain as that's the way the force was applied. Maybe try having the force applied across the grain on the board with the inserts?
@@jlehm definitely flaws in the testing. I have however accomplished What I wanted to. I have shown the community an alternative to threaded insets and now I can get back to my builds.
I’m fairly new to woodworking and have been using inserts as majority of my projects are shipped a distance so I need something that could be taken apart and reassembled. I didn’t realize you could thread the wood as well! Where would I begin to look for these taps? Any help would be appreciated. I’m trying to step my game up on current build and use simple joinery and opposite force with z clips hoping it’ll be enough with out inserts. This video came at a perfect time. Your videos always encourage me to become a better woodworker! I’m losing money on time invested on this project but I figure at some point I have to learn how to do things to better myself as this is something I’d like to continue doing ( sometimes) . Thanks for putting the videos out
You really aren't testing thread loading there. If you want to do that, you need to be pulling perpendicular to the wood (i.e. straight away from it, so perhaps screw in a welded eyelet bolt and then pull that directly away from the wood using a winch with a tension scale [i.e. crane/fish scale] in line between the eyelet and winch etc). Here you are generating a significant torque on the threaded holes which is acting perpendicular to the fibres, so that's why it's failing along the grain (it's essentially just a wood splitter, but a lever in this case rather than a wedge). There are many different types of metal taps by the way. Some of the variation is largely to do with chip evacuation (i.e. spiral, spiral flute, two flute and four flute etc) but there are two major categories on how the thread is formed, namely cutting taps and forming taps. You would probably be better off using a forming tap than a cutting tap in soft compressible materials such as wood.
I’ve got the same drill press and was so close to ordering the WP table for it ,but bailed at the last second for fear that I wouldn’t find it as useful as I’d hope. Especially compared to cost. Would be curious to know how useful you have found it and if you’d buy it again?
Yeah man it’s pretty awesome. I love the drawer bin, it fits my forstner set perfectly. The dust collection works surprisingly well. The fence moves easily and the added surface area is nice.
Number one, I'm sure the thread depth of a brass insert is more than a tapped hole. Number two, you lined up the holes along the grain so any tilt of the insert or screw, as a result of your lifting, is acting like a chisel and forcing the wood apart (something we all would have thought you had already thought about when setting up this experiment). Number three, you allowed for way too much leverage by using such a long board for lifting. You present an interesting point though about tapping versus using an insert. But as others have said, it's really about proper application. Just because you wouldn't use a pockethole screw in a visible area doesn't mean that pockethole joinery doesn't have it's place. Just because an insert may or may not be stronger than a tapped hole, doesn't mean that a tapped hole doesn't have it's place. Whether this was all tongue in cheek or a curiosity you wanted to see played out, only you can tell us that. If it's the former, love the dead pan humor. If it's the latter, you failed your reputation through lack of planning.
Flawed methodology perhaps with the thin stock and hole spacing but interesting concept. Hopefully someone will attack this idea with a scientific approach.
Yeah I’m just not that guy. I achieved what I wanted In this video by putting this in front of the world and showing my technique. The goal is to help woodworkers. To me the testing is uninteresting.. but results are important. Either way.. I will definitely continue tapping the wood until it fails me.
normally i enjoy all of the content you put out, but this one, nah the title is pure clickbait. Your methods for testing were inaccurate, you aren't taking into account the janka hardness or density of different wood species. while walnut is beautiful and definitely worthy of furniture building, not every project is built with it. If you look at the thread pitch of different screws they are not all the same. As far as the purpose of metal inserts, the rule in manufacturing is the softer the material the courser the thread, this allows for more "meat" in between the thread pitch to hold onto. The outside diameter threads are more course and deeper than the relatively fine internal threads. If you use only a tapped hole in a softer wood, the lateral forces on the connector which is made of a harder material will over time compact the fibers of the wood allowing for eventual slip, in fine thread pitch this can become a problem leading to it coming out, the advantage to the course threaded insert is while it does have the same risk of fiber compression, the slippage is much less likely due to the depth of the bite the course threads take. In other words, the insert will keep it secure longer. It's not necessarily an issue of doing away with inserts or using them every time, it's much more likely know the properties of the wood that's being used, and what kind of forces are being applied to the joint, then use which one of the two is appropriate. There's a whole lot of information out there about what kind of tap and what pitch is desirable depending on application.
I’m an artist not a scientist. Doesn’t even matter though.. I got the message out there and was able to raise awareness to tapping wood. It’s worked for me for the past 5+ years and has never failed and I believe it WILL help people. That’s all I was trying to do.
@@WilliamDouglasCo I understand you're a woodworker. It's the fact that you're inferring that metal inserts are of no use. Tapping the wood directly works in some situations, just not all. Thanks for bothering to respond. Your work is amazing.
@@boozytheclown I agree that inserts do have their place. I use them in mdf projects and I would use them with soft wood if I needed to. Thank you for watching and dropping a comment 🙏🏼
To me it is all about the size and angle of the threads. On the inserts I use, the thread's depth (penetration) and pitch are much more aggressive than a standard metal bolt or screw. In essence, the inserts have larger threads that have more penetration into the wood than the standard screws. Yes, we are still using the thread on the screw into the insert, but in that case it is metal on metal, not metal on wood. The inserts also are less susceptible to cross threading and wearing out if a Client is taking the table apart (not a one and done). I am sure wood hardness and density plays in, but how do we know which required and insert and which does not? I guess a structural engineer can weigh in and tell us why use one or the other. This is good info though in the event I do not have threaded inserts to use, but for now, the cost of, and the time spent, on using inserts does not justify me not using them and I feel they add to the quality of my builds. IMHO
Might work in theory..but im sure it doesn't work in theory for the consumer as they put together take apart put together because in that theory their loosening the hole up to where also they may have to tighten past original drill depth. Maybe a better test next time like a different pc of wood. idk
the way you clamped the board down completely negated the purpose of the test. try again with the clamping pressure on the center line. id bet the inserts perform better then, they offer more thread purchase. though the glue will make threading the plank itself stronger yet. the clamp location you chose, for sure led to the splitting of the board. i still totally dig your videos
@@jlehm I agree. I do not have any of that knowledge, and I’d like to keep It that way. I wanted to show people an alternative and I’ve done that. Now let the people thread their wood and have fun!
I agree that you might not need inserts 100% of the time, though Joshua (and probably others) below do bring up the valid point about multiple assembly/disassembly cycles and the tapped wood losing the threading. I typically prefer to use zero metal in my good projects, but I'll definitely keep you in mind if I need to consider this... "Hmm, what would chill-ass William Douglas do?"
"Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice..." 😏 A couple things... You put all the holes in a row along the grain of a very short plank & so of course weakened it... You would have to calculate ft/lbs based on the extra leverage so you can't just take the scales reading... You're comment about a weird & scarce drill size for the inserts made me smile... in engineering, we used size-steps of 0.1mm as a matter of course & any engineering supply shop would have no difficulty selling you a HSS bit (not brad point ) of the correct dimensions. Installing inserts by hand is a PITA , they were meant to be installed by machine. Tapping SOFTWOOD to screw in directly will fail.. (Machine) Screws are usually only used in woodworking where disassembly is to be expected, I've never seen a woodworker use them for a permanant fixing... we use joints & loose tenons for that... 😎👍☘🍺
Pffftttt. Not a good test. You didnt compare them with Titanium inserts :D J/K Anyways, Tapped wood performs really well if the threads are waxed/oiled/"hardened" in some way. I had the BEST results using regular studs (threaded rods) fixed into the wood with a bit of epoxy putty and then using a nut on the other end. Kinda like an engine head assembly. Why go to all that trouble? Threaded rods can inserted from either end, and fastened from both ends too. Theyre available in 6ft lengths, And you can always make your own studs using blank rods and a simple threading die. For ultra-strong assembly, it works sort of like a truss rod on a guitar.
I'll have to try out tapping the wood. I have used those brass inserts...agree about the strange drill bit! I made a special jig for installing them which works pretty good. I'd rather not have to buy them though :-)
you made holes in the weakest part of the board, you can see in grain. The board breaks at this point is expected, it is unexpected that you did not know it. The test only proved your ignorance. The insert is possibility of multiple use , and the thread is deeper and has a larger surface area, it is adapted to wood, which was invented by engineers in real testing. There is a screw for screwing into wood and it is called a woodscrew.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Ok! Damn. (Pulls half the alphabet out of mouth) Ya freaking got me! That's what I get for watching yer darn vid before coffee. LOL!! (-: edit: (referring to my previous post)
Always love your content. Came for the education🧐. Stayed for the failed science experiment🫠. In regards to the aforementioned “ethical decision” of a one time use purchase and return…I think TARGET will live.
I don't care who's right, it sparks discussion and you've shared your efforts and findings...my only concern or whatever is whether it's ok to buy something single use like this and return it, but of course that's your choice/ethical decision :) thanks for sharing
That’s all I wanted to do 🙌🏻 I’m never going to be a great person for running tests but I’m great with provoking interesting topics 🤠
@@WilliamDouglasCo Haha, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Basic science has certain criteria and you've met those with the constant stuff like length of the board and other crap, it's all basic but does the job! As another commenter said, I think it would save money and effort unless the screws/bolts are removed lots
@@clevelandexplorer2221 I agree with that! Thanks man!
Come on, you’ve never bought something, used it, and returned it? I find that hard to believe. Also, when it’s big box stores who cares. That’s free market capitalism at work. 😃
@@clashofphish I kind of agree with the capitalism but many stores need to send the items back once used/returned in most cases. If it were me, I'd find something to borrow and be prepared to spend the money if it breaks to replace said item. My friend, for example, tried the Dyson bladeless fan, having been impressed from a relatives. His was shit and so was the replacement, so sent back and replaced with a cheap-o which did as good a job it seems :) point is like me, he didn't purchase it with the intention to use once knowing it'll be returned. I return things which don't work or wrong purchase which I hold my hands up to-like the wrong usb charger the other day. I've never bought with the intent on using something knowing I'll return it after, no
I think where the inserts come into play is if you have a piece that’s going to be taken down and put back together, let’s say, 10 times in its life. Wood threads may get pretty worked over.
Exactly my thoughts from the beginning. The whole point is breakdown and reassembly. If I didn’t need to do that I wouldn’t be tapping threads into hardwood. I’d just use a more common fixing technique.
yup
This is very easy to test but I would disagree with your expectation. When you remove and reinsert a bolt, you place almost no strain on the female threads that you tapped. I wouldn't expect to find any meaningful difference in freshly tapped threads vs. threads that had seen the same bolt 20 times. Maybe 20 *different* bolts would tear things up a little but the same bolt (most likely circumstance) should be a non issue.
@@StormGod29 that’s fair. I don’t know which would ultimately work better or the same. Maybe it’s neither here nor there. I just think that was the thought process behind the inserts. Nothing more. Be well
Like say for example if you had to return a table or something because you finished your "one time" home staging efforts? :)
The real MVP is that Target scale
😂 no joke
A few weeks ago, I saw a guy use those brass inserts. I said "Self, why doesn't he just tap the wood?" Great video!
Having worked with FIRA ( the furniture industry research association ) on a number of testing projects you would never test using that action you used. Testing thread strength must be done with a straight pull not leverage as you used. A simple test is to place a piece of tube over the thread and use a screw/bolt and washer to pull against the tube whilst using a torque wrench to measure the force. I have tested many threads with and without inserts and in general you will find that you need more depth of thread when going straight into the wood. This is because the holding power of the larger thread of the insert is greater. I have to say that the whole point of using brass/ stainless steel threaded inserts is to allowed easy disaassembly of 'KD' furniture without wear on the threads. If you don't want to use inserts why not simply use woodscrews. There is quite a range of head types available which are more attractive than standard pozidrives or phillips.
Thanks for making this video and doing the tests. I’m a guitar maker (electric guitars) and I’ve seen people use the brass inserts in guitar necks as a means of attaching them to the guitar bodies. I know it’s a tried and tested thing but there has always been a doubt in the back of my mind that they may fail. I have pondered it for too long but you have helped me decide that I could use them but also that I could tap the holes into the guitar neck. I feel an experiment of my own coming on. I think the inserts are also available in steel, maybe stainless. Thanks again, you have a new follower. ✊
As an engineer who spent a while designing tests to determine the mechanical properties of little plastic widgets, I would be happy to have a conversation about why your wood likely snapped and how your test design didn’t quite test what you set out to. The reasons are related to the angles of forces you applied, but a worthwhile explanation is a bit much for a comment and only worth the time if you are actually interested.
Game changer. Used this for the first time yesterday, and worked like a dream.
Amen. Especially with hardwood, those inserts are unnecessary. The only thing I think they are really needed is when building something out of softwood that you will repeatedly take apart and put together... Like in certain jigs or other shop projects. Or if you're customer is going to take their piece apart a bunch just because the wood can get worn out and inserts can be replaced if they pop out from over usage. But, most people getting started with woodworking from watching CZcams must think threaded inserts are super important because everyone is always talking about them lol.
Hey those are all great points. Thank you for watching my video!
I built a sim racing rig out of 2x4s, and I used a ton of inserts for this reason exactly. I had to disassemble it to get into the basement, and obviously pine isn't going to hold threads very well. I got the cheap inserts too, whole project was $12 in inserts, not that bad.
This should not have been a video by itself, sorry Will. All you did was prove that if you drill a ton of holes in a row then a piece of wood will break easily. If you want to prove anything, cut a bunch of pieces of hardwood all the same size, put a hole in the middle of each one, and try the test again
I use them to prevent the threads from being stripped if its taken apart a few times, you could test which one strips the wood first by tightening a bolt into bare wood vs a brass insert with a torque wrench
I am studying to become a civil engineer specialising in wooden structures and also am a trained furniture maker. In my studies we have a whole course dedicated to the different methods to connect wood with anything.
I can tell you with full confidence, that there are enough times where you will need the brass inserts, where pure wooden threads would fail way sooner.
The biggest difference or easiest to grasp difference between the two is the threads themselves, which are ideally way bigger and 'spread out more' on the brass inserts, which, mathematically, allows for other factors to come into play, thus changing the final forces the two can withstand.
Which brings me to my next point, which is the direction of the force. You twisted the screw around the furthest point where the two woods were touching, so the screw just pushed to the side. Of course the wood is breaking with that kind of setup, because it can't withhold the horizontal pressure way before the vertical pressure even comes into play.
Also the wooden threads would still be way easier to pull out vertically, because of my first point.
Which brings me to my last: the type of wood used. It so much depends on which kind of wood you are using.
So in conclusion: sorry, but you do need those.
Thought someone would have mentioned this. The test setup applies lateral force to the bolt as well as vertical force. The wood pulling up is working as a lever to pry the bolt out at an angle. This is why the wood split. You just need a different test method that applies only vertical force. I still think what everyone else has said here though. Softwoods they are good as well as multiple disassembles. Hardwoods and to just keep it together likely the taps are a cheaper and just as good way to go
Brass inserts are only good for items that will have the bolts repeatedly used. Also, you install those inserts upside down; the slotted ended goes in first, it’s not mean for a screwdriver.
I see people saying it isnt as stable as the brass, throw a couple drops of minwax wood hardener in there and it will be just fine. Resin stabilized wood would be incredibly resilient to being taken up and put back together.
I like your style
I don’t think anybody knows more about returns than our family
💀
I really enjoy your videos and frankly I do find that just bc there is an option to use something, doesn’t mean that you have to. In my mind there is not real right or wrong, it is about doing what YOU want to do on YOUR projects. Keep preaching the good sawdust word!👊🏾
My man! Always love reading your comments. Thanks for watching and I’m happy you liked the vid!
Reenforcing the wood threads with super glue, or wood glue and forcing it into the treads with the fastner (but remove it quickly and clean) will make the threads last longer.
I suspect the reason the wood split is because you have multiple holes drilled in line and close to one another. This weakens the board and makes it likely to split or completely break. It would be interesting to repeat the test but with 8 individual boards, each having one hole drilled through.
Wil my man! That’s,
5min : 21 seconds of my life I’ll never get back
Haha man that’s 3 days I’ll never get back but I think I’ve reaching a lot of people and helped woodworkers see another way. A better way. A cheaper way. That’s all I wanted to do.. help new woodworkers
Nice bevel tip slotted screwdriver…. Where can I get one?!?! Just kidding 😂😂😂 Good video William.
Appreciate it Gary! Thanks for watching 🪚
Thanx 👍🏽👌🏽 ❕❕❕
Really informative 😐🙄 ❗❗❗
Best five minutes..,
I've ever wasted in my life 🤣😂❕❗
Hahaha thanks!
i use inserts in jigs, and for places to lock down tools on benches when in use ,not going to stop
Really didn't prove anything... the wood cracked because you essentially cantilevered a giant beam out and used a ton of leverage on the attachment point to twist the board and warp it. If you really wanted to know the results of this test you'd need to use a very thick piece of wood and pull on the tapped/inserted portion with a tremendous amount of force in an IN-LINE direction. Anyways, they're both essentially using thread tapped wood to stay in place so the difference would be very negligible. The super glued insert would probably be a slight bit stronger, but the tapped threads would likely be stronger in practice because there's a good chance you're going to tap a deeper hole and use a longer bolt to get more thread engagement.
Cool test, but turn the wood 90 degrees to make the grain go the other way. That way the long fibers have little stress. Also, put the clamps right next to your lever to mitigate the torque on the fibers. Another trip to Target, and do it again.
to really determine this a substantial block of wood would be necessary, but it does seem obviously true that the brass inserts are a total waste. love it.
Thank you for watching and dropping a comment!
ever since you mentioned this in a previous video I stopped using inserts and haven't had any trouble, great tip!
That’s awesome to hear! Thank you for sharing
Best part is you don't have to use your nicest Lie Nielsen bevel edge chisels to screw in any inserts!
Haha I have to keep the worst chisels around for trivial tasks such as scraping glue and turning inserts
Interesting results. Though I would say that they are inconclusive for thicker material where the threads are more likely to pull out before the wood splits. It does show that for thin stock that the wood would be the weak point not the threads.
But results may also change if the screw spacing was changed. As each hole is a weak point in the wood for a stress concentration to form. Though the spacing may already be sufficiently large to not matter much.
You are right! I thought about doing a lot more testing but I’m not the right guy for that. I never did good in science class
@William Douglas Co if you ever do run this test again in addition to thicker wood I am interested to see a freshly tapped screw/wood connection and a connection where the screw was run in and out to a typical application torque like 30-50 times. How do wood threads hold up over time and with use?
@@WilliamDouglasCo You should take more credit in all fairness, irrespective of your formal education. Perhaps you're being humble... but as a wood worker we are problem solvers. Science simply comes down to observation and experimentation- testing and hypothesising.
If only someone could invent a screw or bolt specifically designed for use in wood. Surely the old timey coach builders had something that worked.
Good idea, but by drilling all the holes in a line parallel to the grain you just re-created spiral bound paper perforations intended to break. I'd like to see you re-create this experiment but with only one bolt per board.
The only time I ever use the inserts is when I am making a jig with adjustment screws. I try to not use screws on pieces I build. But I build normally smaller furniture items. On a table or bed... Well, doweling everything is fin and all, but... yeah. LOL
Threaded inserts are nothing more than a single use thread tap that has internal threads. The only difference between what you do and what a threaded insert does really depends on the shape and type of thread you are using. Threaded inserts usually have a larger relative thread diameter to body diameter. Nice job.
Thanks Robert! I appreciate you watching and dropping a comment !
I did this when mounting a vice to a workbench. I had drill a hole into the wood that was smaller than the bolt i was using. I then tighten the bolt down into the hole letting the threads of the bolt do the work . So far it has held up great.
Yeah that sounds awesome. I have had no issues with any of my pieces and I’ve been doing it for at least 5 years
The only scale I have is in grams.
🤔
The brass inserts have threads, the screws have threads, either way there are threads involved. I think the difference comes in the kinds of threads and it seems to me softer and composite woods may react differently. At the point where I think about using the inserts on this sort of thing I will do some of my own tests. Thanks for questioning this practice. I am always amazed how strong hardwood is. 👍🏼👍🏼
I agree, wood tape fine. I always dribble thin CA in the tapped holes to firm up the wood. The only potential issue, as others have said, is when screws are frequently removed and re-inserted. Fortunately, this can always be fixed by drilling the holes out and using inserts later.
Yes that’s exactly what I was thinking. Or drill it bigger and re-tap
you could fill that crack with some pretty blue epoxy. I think I saw something like that on Etsy?
I was expecting the scale to break first lol... But great video, been wanting to do the same as well but some say it works, some say no, so yeah probably should try it as well lol
I only know from what I’ve experienced. I haven’t had any issues with tapping walnut and similar hardwoods.
Give it a try!
I have an antique birthing chair that's about 110 years old. The legs were attached via wood threads only. They are still attached, and still strong.
@@wharfrat360 tapped wood threads? Or brass inserts?
@@WilliamDouglasCo, wood threads!
@@wharfrat360 sounds like that would be quite a conversation piece
Glad you did this test. I was afraid of removing my whole deck and having to put inserts where my deck screws originally were. Whew! 😅
You should probably use deck screws 😅
ummm. no. You should definitely consider adding an insert for each screw....... Just in case :)
Drill/tap combos are nice for any common size 3/8" or smaller
thank you
I may be wrong, but seems to me like you did not really measure anything here because all the holes for the inserts weakened the wood across its middle, so all that was proven is that the threads are stronger than the weak lignen that bonds the wood fibers. Since wood is strong along its fibers and much less so across the fibers, perhaps the test would be more interesting if you turned the piece 90 degrees, so that the holds are drilled on a cross-cut line, rather than on a rip-line. That way, the long fibers will be resisting your force, which are much much stronger than the resin that binds long fibers together.
Please let me know if I am wrong.
Thanks, regardless :)
I think it just split because all the holes were lined up.
You definitely could be right. I never thought the wood was going to split or I would have paid more attention to details like that. Hindsight.
Just a tip: they sell some bits that are supposed to drill the hole and make the threads at the same time. You know?
I have some and I never used them like this, I make the holes a bit smaller and then use them to make the threads. And I always use them with the drill, they didn't even have the square part for the manual thingy.
Now I'm starting to see those being used even on steel! With lathes and so on. And they seem to spit out the shavings easily, because of the "drillbit like cuts". You know? So you don't need to keep going on and off with them each 1/16".
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I'm glad you made this video. I would like to see a more in-depth and accurate testing method and i think since you got the ball rolling it won't be long before somebody runs with it. Kudos.
I completely agree. Whether you are cutting threads or the threads are cut by an insert, it’s all the same to the wood.
I get that it's just as strong force wise, but if you're thinking long term with you projects, maybe the inserts are better? If someone were to remove the legs from a table top to refinish it every few years, maybe the threaded wood will wear out?
That’s an interesting thought and you could be right but I wouldn’t worry about that. Brass threads are inherently soft and can easily got worn out and cross threaded if not careful so I think it’s still an equal
@@WilliamDouglasCo I agree brass is not that strong but I use stainless steel ones. I would say those will outlast wood for sure if they are taken apart and put together often.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Fair point.
@@jlehm if you cross thread the wood.. you could drill a bigger hole and put in an insert.
Super great useful test, thanks a bunch!
subscribed because you used mortal kombat film clip. that's my jam.
Been doing the same for years and have been very satisfied. I see “special wood taps” for sale lately but have a draw full of metal taps from my toolmaker days. No reason to switch.
That’s awesome to hear. I haven’t seen the new wood taps. I’ll look into it. Thank you for watching
I think MLS has them
Nice another video!!!
Thanks for watching! 🪚
I like these videos.
but what's that sign on the wall?
It’s called a VESTABOARD
Conclusion with only one trial??
It looked like the board was splitting with the grain as that's the way the force was applied. Maybe try having the force applied across the grain on the board with the inserts?
I agree but I saw everything that I needed to see and want to get back to my builds!
@@jlehm definitely flaws in the testing. I have however accomplished What I wanted to. I have shown the community an alternative to threaded insets and now I can get back to my builds.
I hope Target doesn’t see this video.
Hope you continue to do the news videos
We lost so many followers doing the news!
Not helpful at all but I do appreciate the effort.
I’m fairly new to woodworking and have been using inserts as majority of my projects are shipped a distance so I need something that could be taken apart and reassembled. I didn’t realize you could thread the wood as well! Where would I begin to look for these taps? Any help would be appreciated. I’m trying to step my game up on current build and use simple joinery and opposite force with z clips hoping it’ll be enough with out inserts. This video came at a perfect time. Your videos always encourage me to become a better woodworker! I’m losing money on time invested on this project but I figure at some point I have to learn how to do things to better myself as this is something I’d like to continue doing ( sometimes) . Thanks for putting the videos out
You really aren't testing thread loading there. If you want to do that, you need to be pulling perpendicular to the wood (i.e. straight away from it, so perhaps screw in a welded eyelet bolt and then pull that directly away from the wood using a winch with a tension scale [i.e. crane/fish scale] in line between the eyelet and winch etc). Here you are generating a significant torque on the threaded holes which is acting perpendicular to the fibres, so that's why it's failing along the grain (it's essentially just a wood splitter, but a lever in this case rather than a wedge).
There are many different types of metal taps by the way. Some of the variation is largely to do with chip evacuation (i.e. spiral, spiral flute, two flute and four flute etc) but there are two major categories on how the thread is formed, namely cutting taps and forming taps. You would probably be better off using a forming tap than a cutting tap in soft compressible materials such as wood.
I’ve got the same drill press and was so close to ordering the WP table for it ,but bailed at the last second for fear that I wouldn’t find it as useful as I’d hope. Especially compared to cost. Would be curious to know how useful you have found it and if you’d buy it again?
Yeah man it’s pretty awesome. I love the drawer bin, it fits my forstner set perfectly. The dust collection works surprisingly well. The fence moves easily and the added surface area is nice.
@@WilliamDouglasCo awesome thanks for the reply and I love the channel!
you're so silly, I love it
Hahaha 🤪
I can't handle those inserts! Putting them in is the worst.
They are troublesome little s****
Number one, I'm sure the thread depth of a brass insert is more than a tapped hole. Number two, you lined up the holes along the grain so any tilt of the insert or screw, as a result of your lifting, is acting like a chisel and forcing the wood apart (something we all would have thought you had already thought about when setting up this experiment). Number three, you allowed for way too much leverage by using such a long board for lifting.
You present an interesting point though about tapping versus using an insert. But as others have said, it's really about proper application. Just because you wouldn't use a pockethole screw in a visible area doesn't mean that pockethole joinery doesn't have it's place. Just because an insert may or may not be stronger than a tapped hole, doesn't mean that a tapped hole doesn't have it's place.
Whether this was all tongue in cheek or a curiosity you wanted to see played out, only you can tell us that. If it's the former, love the dead pan humor. If it's the latter, you failed your reputation through lack of planning.
Highpoint of every week!
I appreciate that my man!
Flawed methodology perhaps with the thin stock and hole spacing but interesting concept. Hopefully someone will attack this idea with a scientific approach.
Yeah I’m just not that guy. I achieved what I wanted In this video by putting this in front of the world and showing my technique. The goal is to help woodworkers. To me the testing is uninteresting.. but results are important. Either way.. I will definitely continue tapping the wood until it fails me.
normally i enjoy all of the content you put out, but this one, nah the title is pure clickbait. Your methods for testing were inaccurate, you aren't taking into account the janka hardness or density of different wood species. while walnut is beautiful and definitely worthy of furniture building, not every project is built with it. If you look at the thread pitch of different screws they are not all the same. As far as the purpose of metal inserts, the rule in manufacturing is the softer the material the courser the thread, this allows for more "meat" in between the thread pitch to hold onto. The outside diameter threads are more course and deeper than the relatively fine internal threads. If you use only a tapped hole in a softer wood, the lateral forces on the connector which is made of a harder material will over time compact the fibers of the wood allowing for eventual slip, in fine thread pitch this can become a problem leading to it coming out, the advantage to the course threaded insert is while it does have the same risk of fiber compression, the slippage is much less likely due to the depth of the bite the course threads take. In other words, the insert will keep it secure longer. It's not necessarily an issue of doing away with inserts or using them every time, it's much more likely know the properties of the wood that's being used, and what kind of forces are being applied to the joint, then use which one of the two is appropriate. There's a whole lot of information out there about what kind of tap and what pitch is desirable depending on application.
I’m an artist not a scientist. Doesn’t even matter though.. I got the message out there and was able to raise awareness to tapping wood. It’s worked for me for the past 5+ years and has never failed and I believe it WILL help people. That’s all I was trying to do.
@@WilliamDouglasCo I understand you're a woodworker. It's the fact that you're inferring that metal inserts are of no use. Tapping the wood directly works in some situations, just not all. Thanks for bothering to respond. Your work is amazing.
@@boozytheclown I agree that inserts do have their place. I use them in mdf projects and I would use them with soft wood if I needed to. Thank you for watching and dropping a comment 🙏🏼
Brass or steel inserts have their uses, why should we deny that?👏👍😀
They totally do. I use them in mdf
Do you have a link while I can get the same type of threaded taps
I believe I have them listed in my Amazon affiliate link!
I didn't see it listed on here
To me it is all about the size and angle of the threads. On the inserts I use, the thread's depth (penetration) and pitch are much more aggressive than a standard metal bolt or screw. In essence, the inserts have larger threads that have more penetration into the wood than the standard screws. Yes, we are still using the thread on the screw into the insert, but in that case it is metal on metal, not metal on wood. The inserts also are less susceptible to cross threading and wearing out if a Client is taking the table apart (not a one and done). I am sure wood hardness and density plays in, but how do we know which required and insert and which does not? I guess a structural engineer can weigh in and tell us why use one or the other.
This is good info though in the event I do not have threaded inserts to use, but for now, the cost of, and the time spent, on using inserts does not justify me not using them and I feel they add to the quality of my builds. IMHO
🤝
Might work in theory..but im sure it doesn't work in theory for the consumer as they put together take apart put together because in that theory their loosening the hole up to where also they may have to tighten past original drill depth. Maybe a better test next time like a different pc of wood. idk
the way you clamped the board down completely negated the purpose of the test. try again with the clamping pressure on the center line.
id bet the inserts perform better then, they offer more thread purchase. though the glue will make threading the plank itself stronger yet.
the clamp location you chose, for sure led to the splitting of the board. i still totally dig your videos
i guess what i meant is the upward pressure was focused on one side of the drilled holes not on the fasteners.
was not a totally fair test
SCIENCE!!!!
You’ve got brass balls doing these confronting experiments. 😛
Hahah I know. I’m expecting to get some angry people
@@jlehm I agree. I do not have any of that knowledge, and I’d like to keep
It that way. I wanted to show people an alternative and I’ve done that. Now let the people thread their wood and have fun!
@@jlehm Mate, I think you might be a little overqualified for this channel 😜
I agree that you might not need inserts 100% of the time, though Joshua (and probably others) below do bring up the valid point about multiple assembly/disassembly cycles and the tapped wood losing the threading. I typically prefer to use zero metal in my good projects, but I'll definitely keep you in mind if I need to consider this... "Hmm, what would chill-ass William Douglas do?"
William the science guy 🤓
Said no one ever
The wood broke because your test fas flawed. You used leverage while you should have used pulling force
"Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice..." 😏
A couple things...
You put all the holes in a row along the grain of a very short plank & so of course weakened it...
You would have to calculate ft/lbs based on the extra leverage so you can't just take the scales reading...
You're comment about a weird & scarce drill size for the inserts made me smile... in engineering, we used size-steps of 0.1mm as a matter of course & any engineering supply shop would have no difficulty selling you a HSS bit (not brad point ) of the correct dimensions.
Installing inserts by hand is a PITA , they were meant to be installed by machine.
Tapping SOFTWOOD to screw in directly will fail..
(Machine) Screws are usually only used in woodworking where disassembly is to be expected, I've never seen a woodworker use them for a permanant fixing... we use joints & loose tenons for that...
😎👍☘🍺
Would be interesting in thicker Wood! But nice!
Will your way work in soft wood such as pine?
I never work with soft woods but I wouldn’t be as comfortable doing this in something under 1000 on the janka hardness scale
Pffftttt. Not a good test. You didnt compare them with Titanium inserts :D J/K
Anyways, Tapped wood performs really well if the threads are waxed/oiled/"hardened" in some way. I had the BEST results using regular studs (threaded rods) fixed into the wood with a bit of epoxy putty and then using a nut on the other end.
Kinda like an engine head assembly. Why go to all that trouble? Threaded rods can inserted from either end, and fastened from both ends too. Theyre available in 6ft lengths, And you can always make your own studs using blank rods and a simple threading die.
For ultra-strong assembly, it works sort of like a truss rod on a guitar.
I'll have to try out tapping the wood. I have used those brass inserts...agree about the strange drill bit! I made a special jig for installing them which works pretty good. I'd rather not have to buy them though :-)
I stopped using them so long ago I can’t even remember how I was installing them but I definitely had to work out a system
Good call returning the scale. I'd do the same
Yah. I'll buy one of your projects, use it for a week and return it for a full refund. Integrity, where art thou?
Was just a joke. I did not return the scale.
@@WilliamDouglasCo thank you for saying. Sorry if I failed to catch your joke. Blessings to you and yours.
That was a waste of my time 😡
😅
you made holes in the weakest part of the board, you can see in grain. The board breaks at this point is expected, it is unexpected that you did not know it. The test only proved your ignorance. The insert is possibility of multiple use , and the thread is deeper and has a larger surface area, it is adapted to wood, which was invented by engineers in real testing. There is a screw for screwing into wood and it is called a woodscrew.
I literally laughed out loud reading this! Thank you for watching 🙌🏻
You should do a better test and tag me
@@WilliamDouglasCo Ok! Damn. (Pulls half the alphabet out of mouth) Ya freaking got me!
That's what I get for watching yer darn vid before coffee. LOL!! (-:
edit: (referring to my previous post)
Always love your content. Came for the education🧐. Stayed for the failed science experiment🫠.
In regards to the aforementioned “ethical decision” of a one time use purchase and return…I think TARGET will live.
A science experiment is oddly one of the only things I am ok with failing 🤪