How to spot a bad faith argument
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2020
- Look, since I've started posting these songs I've had some pretty spicy discourse in the comments section, and I found myself coming back to a certain Medium article to pick out which arguments were just in bad faith and not worth my time. So I decided to sum it up ✨in song✨
Now you get to play the fun game of identifying these arguments in comments sections, in the media and from politicians. Look after your mental health and save your energy!
The Medium article that inspired it all:
/ a-field-guide-to-bad-f...
You can learn how to play this and my other ukulele songs here:
• Emerson Brophy's Ukule...
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#shorts - Hudba
It is hard to win an argument against a genius
But it is impossible to win an argument against an idiot
Brilliant
32 likes and 1 comment. This is to good. It needs to change (chain)
I think the best way is to break down the arguments into minimal parts, so that even the dumbest of beings can understand it, and if they terminantly disagree on something for no reason, you just leave the debate, and you both will know you've won
It's hard to reason with the unreasonable.
True
*me at 3 am learning this song the night before my logic/debate exam*
Good luck! I believe in you!
Did you succeed?
@@snowpuppy3616 I did!
Haha I have a debate tmrw infront of my class😬
@@lavalu1137 Good luck!
Another thing: when they don’t actually argue. Once they run out of arguments, they simply start insulting you. For example, if I’m trying to have a talk with my sister and she says something along the lines of “ugly fat brat”, that’s how I know I’ve won. She’s trying to throw me off and change the subject rather than address the topic. She’s not arguing in good faith, she’s arguing because she wants to be angry. Don’t let them. Tell them to stop changing the subject or just walk away until they’re ready to argue in a civil way.
That doesn't always work because a common tactic is to rile someone up until they break civility and get upset and then you can just write them off. It goes both ways
@@raak4070 ugh i've had so many of those, my sister loved doing that
Or you can insult her back and have some fun, but that's up to you
@@raak4070 huh, I suppose so.
@@gabrielbarros493 I guess that is an option yeah lmao
This actually helped me realize some flaws in myself I'll try to avoid these things in the near future
Good job for finding the flaws in you and changing them
The fact that you can acknowledge you have flaws is miles ahead of the rest.
Based recognition of flaws and self-growth?
Good job.
We love personal growth and self awareness. Proud of you 😊
Character growth is based :D
ha, they Always tell you to "calm down" or "relax" in some obnoxious way when you aren't even angry....they are the worst.
Had this happen when debating someone in instagram comments. At least, I was debating. They seemed to be under the impression we were have am emotional argument or something. Like bro, I'm not upset. You didn't "hurt my feelings" with your crappy arguments. This is an Instagram comment section. It ain't that deep.
Bro relax
@@katemueller1359 I got emotional in a debate once. Someone said that asexual people are broken. I am asexual.
@@cewla3348 well that’s stupid 😭 but i want to reassure you that you’re more than valid! Im also asexual and you should let things like that get you down :)
@@cewla3348 honestly, folks who get mad about the existence of ace people give me major creep vibes. Maybe that's on me but like.... how do they suggest fixing it? Should I force myself to have sex to make them comfortable? Like.... creepy.
When he said “It's okay to disengage” I felt that
This feeling when you just disengage and the person just keeps screaming and punching the air while you don't give a single fuck 😌
@@alegria1813 It’s NOT ok to disengage. ALL (100%) of political debates are gonna contain bad faith argument and fallacies. If I’m trying to DEFEND MY POSITION and _you give up_ then I have SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED MY CASTLE.
If an army is trying to siege a castle and the castle defense holds, forcing the opposition to pack up and go home then who won? The defender, obviously.
@@Carltoncurtis1 ok
@@alegria1813 the internet is a funny place sometimes
@@ladytopaz6358 It sure is!
"You can't logic somebody out of a stance they did not logic themselves into." This little revelation has been a huuuuge energy saver.
I like to simply just ask them "hey, are you here to engage in meaningful conversation and possibly learn something or are you here to beat me over the head with an idiot stick until i say "sure whatever dude"?"
You have no idea how well it works. Sometimes theyll give the most non-answer responses humanly possible or try to beat you with the idiot stick before you even start the actual conversation. Its helped so much.
@@windrose5988 im going to stare at you blankly until you think about how this sort of comment might backfire against you.
@@windrose5988OP is basically saying that many times people aren't interested in a meaningful conversation, instead they just care about wining... And that's you response? I'm going to use a (mostly) non-political example, just to showcase what this is about. If I say that I like a gory movie because the violence is used as a commentary on the treatment of women, to which I get a response like "Oh, so you support the torture of women?", followed by them calling me sick for liking gory media... What do you think they're trying to do there? They're not interested in my opinion, or even a meaningful discussion on whether or not this is a good way to showcase societal issues. They are only interested in winning.
And before you tell me that this doesn't happen - it's an actual discussion that I've had before.
I'll have to use this more often ngl
@@windrose5988sure whatever dude
@@pyr4625 i think ive gotten good at detecting a bad faith arguement. Youre bad-faithing as hell right now. I have no interest in speaking with you.
Y’all it is so powerful to learn to say “this conversation is over “ when people argue in bad faith and then literally walk away and watch people continue to scream into the void
Yeah it's great!
My friend does that, she just doesn’t know when to quit. Once you ask to politely step away from the debate she starts insulting you and calls you a coward. Hate her sometimes.
@@krgeaux sounds like you should maybe stop being friends with her?
@@drollchild I’ve considered it. However, here’s the thing. Her personality isn’t toxic (I’m sadly experienced with toxic friends) and she always apologizes. I know she means well, she just has a lot of emotional maturity to go through :]
@@krgeaux that makes sense. I've had friends that tend to jump to conclusions, so one thing I've found that works is just being honest with them, but very gentle. Try de-escalating by saying "this discussion has turned into an argument and that doesn't feel good, so I need a break from this conversation". Give her insults the same treatment. If she still doesn't listen, leave, then have a conversation about her behavior and how it makes you feel at a time where you're both calm and open to it.
sorry if I'm overstepping! just wanted to give some advice from my experiences
This is why it’s impossible to argue with my parents they’ve used almost every one of these tactics jfksjdsk
I don't even try... It's like talking to a brick wall
Oh hey same 🙃
I’ve given up arguing with them they just don’t listen
Yall ever physically fought with your parents? The moment they realize you’ve stopped being afraid of them, is the moment that they will try to consolidate their power and authority and pull some bs. Parents are good and they provide homes and food and all that, but quite frankly all children did not ask to be born, did not ask to go to school, did not ask to work a job 40 hours a week, etc. And then if they divorce after Welp my existence is absolutely pointless
My parents too. It’s so frustrating. And to top it all off if I just stop talking my parents think they’ve “won” and now I believe what they do. No mom, I’m just giving you my “ok, Karen” nod.
My mom has told my dad every day or weeks, "I don't want to talk politics," and then he would go on to talk politics. The other day, he did it again, and she got upset that he never listens to her, and his argument was," You're the one getting upset," and then "I listen to stuff you say that I don't like to hear," which is dumb because there's a difference between listening to something dull like work talk and listening to something you explicitly said you do not want to hear.
“Keep this specific thing out of my personal space” is a perfectly reasonable request, as well as getting angry when the person brings it into your personal space anyway. Deprived of all other context.
I do this at times but it’s usually not in bad faith. I’m not this bad but my gf hates debates. So anything I bring up politically is bad. But I also have adhd so the thing I bring up has been on my mind for like 2 years and I just have to say something. We manage but if we fight it’s usually about politics lol
God don't I relate to that story.
I long for a day I can outright tell my Dad to stop blasting his homophobic hate speech at 10 in the morning. I've made it explicitly clear that stuff just makes me upset and he either throws a slur at me while going off about "politics" (which isn't really politics, it's just him hating a group of people more than anything)
or tells me "It's my house and I can listen to what I want."
It's technically not your house cause we're renting it but okay 🙄
@@marymystery4427 "It's my life and I can listen to what I want" would be a perfect comeback.
Any “debate” on a persons basic rights is in bad faith
MASSIVE W!!!!
Basic rights are opinions though. They only exist because people have debated them to be “necessary” so no actually, refusing to debate basic rights on those grounds is bad faith on your end.
@@mariopkmnzelda i see your point, however how is it bad faith to not want to argue about basic human rights?
@@therevolutionwillhavebanjos Because it’s invalidating another individuals opinion to call their opinion straight up wrong just because it goes against your opinion on the matter at hand. Nothing about basic rights is objective, they exist just because we said they should, and some people are saying they shouldn’t. You don’t have to agree with them, but to call their arguments “bad faith” just because of the subject matter is ridiculous.
Everything can and should be questioned
Was arguing with someone over GMOs, and eventually I was just like. They're not here to widen they're views man, they just want to insult me. So I left lol.
I'm so upset because for a while I hated GMOs, but then I learned that it wasn't the GMOs that I hated, it was the trash ways and awful publicity that Monsanto did that made me hate it.
@@AmazingAutist 👏👏👏👏👏👏
@@AmazingAutist OMG literally me, in 8th grade I made a speech about GMOs for MESA day (there were like 3 different topics we could choose from and I found GMOs the most interesting). But I decided to argue against them, and a year later realized they're actually not bad. I feel like the way they're portrayed to the public makes us conjure up an image of a scientist injecting a syringe into a tomato or something LOL
@@alyssa09485 oh wow...ok...look at the data showing GMO effects cancer rates ect. How it is passed down through DNA
@@mimiboucher5701 what data? How do you suppose it effects cancer rates?
Great way to spot a shit debate? When you give response/ evidence to the question they just asked but they never acknowledge your response but instead they ask you another question.
Yeep
Yeah, shifting the goalposts of a conversation is always a red flag. I see it a lot of political discussions.
How would they "acknowledge" it? If they change topics that means you've won the debate on that topic, time for the next
@@gabrielbarros493It's called sealioning.
"Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity, and feigning ignorance of the subject matter."
Basically, if you present evidence and it's ignored and more questions are asked over and over and over with no sign of actual thought or progress from the person you are discussing with, that may just be a sealion.
@@conspiracypanda1200 But there are a limited amount of topics that the person can ask, and if they ask about one you've already answered, you can just say you've already answered it and call them a moron
If you're not prepared for a question, that's your fault, you shouldn't have began the debate in the first place
also, when they talk over you and won't let you talk for more than a second. I watched so many debates where they'll yell over the person who's making good points, but you can barely hear them. it's annoying when people can't get a word out and then when the person gets angry for not being able to speak the other person starts acting as if they have no reason to be mad.
This video has become incredibly timely in the last 24 hours.
Wow, so basically how all of my relatives talk to people
Same
it's the normal way people talk, they don't really need to be logicaly correct or have a sound argument, they just have to be in the same room as someone who agrees with them and they won, no matter how stupid or illogical their argument is. It's just how humans work. Debating with an idiot is a waste of time
Same, as in, literally the same. The only exception would be my mom and sister smh
@@fredikoinglessasio4519 they have the advantage of numbers , especially in an age where they can call for reinforcements
Mine were like this eurh their religion. Most judgy people I've ever known-- it did teach my not to give af about what other people think... unfortunately, that's my family and it took me 40 years.
Just had like.... the worst debate and when I saw this I was like
Yeah that’s it
Edit: oh wow 1k, thanks
Me too! I was trying so hard to be open-minded and see their side too, but then they started being kinda racist and it hit me that maybe they weren’t doing the same, haha
Same.
@Conn Lucifer I can relate, I just entered one (and I immediately regret it) that had been going on for 7 months!
Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman?
@@arpitabrahmachari7649 Nope
Just like a wise man said,
“You cannot win an argument against an idiot,”
Alternatively:
"Don't argue with an idiot because people won't be able to tell the difference"
"They'll drag you to their level, and beat you with experience."
THE COMMA AT END
FIX IT YOU MOTHERF
people who says that exact thing are often the worst offenders, this is why I've stopped saying that
@@thefakepie1126I disagree
I agree that free speech doesn’t mean you have to listen, but when people try to argue free speech and then tell you that you don’t get to have an opinion and or respond then they are hypocritical.
It's always so funny to me when they get angry at mega companies banning people from their websites because "freedom of speech"
Like dude, private companies can do whatever they want in their private domains, which includes being selective about who is on there. This is capitalism. I thought you guys loved that shit?
No they aren't. I'm 100% fine with Nazis and Klan members being censored at all opportunities and not being allowed to have opinions publicly. Because I'm not a retarded free speech absolutist.
Acting like Censorship and Violence are "reasonable Consequences of speech" and then smugly saying shit like 'free speech doesn't mean freedom from Consequence".
@maxbuchanan7270 they are reasonable consequences of speech. You and your speech do not exist in a vacuum. You have consequences for anything and everything you say and do. There's a saying:
Don't let your mouth write checks your ass can't cash. You don't go around acting like a complete cunt or trying to dehumanize and oppress others and NOT expect to get your ass beaten to a bloody pulp. Hiding behind "free speech" is not going to save you and is coward's tactic. That is NEVER how the world EVER worked at any point in history. And if you did that only a couple hundred years ago around the first few administrations of the U.S. your ass could literally be shot or impaled with a sword for what you said. It's called a duel.
You have never had absolute freedom to say and do what you please and expect to be divorced from the consequences, and you never will. Get over it and stop being a dick and maybe you won't have this problem. And that's the thing, YOU yourself are the problem, not the people reacting to you being the problem.
@@maxbuchanan7270 while free speech doesn’t mean free from consequence, censorship and violence should only ever be used against someone’s speech if there’s actively a threat involved with what they are saying, an alternative political view isn’t an active threat like a lot a lot of people think it is. Censorship is valid though if what you are saying isn’t okay by whoever owns what you’re saying it in, as long as that’s not the government. You can be banned in twitch chat or CZcams comments or kicked out of a store, freedom of speech just stops government from doing that to you.
The hero we didn’t know we needed. You’re like the comment section tour guide.
Him: “It’s okay to disengage.”
Me: Unless it goes on my grade!
Blocking instead of arguing with bad faith bigots is the best thing I ever learned from Twitter.
"When in doubt, block them out."
We gotta put porn back on Tumblr so they leave
The best thing I've learned from twitter is to not use it...
I'm serious...its a horribly designed website. The only way you can maintain your sanity there is if you are left wing and block anyone you disagree with...I'M NOT trying to take the piss on left wingers...the website...like tumblr, is just designed to bring out the worst in people without them realizing it (I've been guilty of this myself). Case in point, I'd much rather get in a heated debate with a left winger in real life than on twitter. (For the record I used to be right wing but am now more centrist...tho sometimes I do lean a little right anyways...lol)
Just using the word bigot and twitter. I can already tell what kind of person you are. "You are a transphobe, racist, homophobe" Keep dilating my mentally unwell friend.
Blocking is surrendering.
Wise choice
Can't forget about attacking your character instead of actually refuting your arguments.
aaa this is great! another red flag that will show you its time to stop debating someone is if they start insulting your looks/things you post/things you like. it shows that they can’t think of any more counter-arguments so they just try to change the subject :/
thier not really changing the subject, their trying to diminish your credibility by personally insulting you, it's what's called an ad hominem or adhom. Call them out on that and they'll have to stop or be perceived as loosing
@@fredikoinglessasio4519 oh you’re totally right! i never knew it had a name, thanks :)
@srry im mentally ill u wont get a reply gee thanks
@@scrambldrabbit you can’t be right your racist
I was arguing with this person in the comments of a tik tok, and they go, you can’t talk you play fortnite. The post was from a year ago and I haven’t played since then. They just kept responding with the same thing and I just put my phone down and disengaged
"Don't argue with stupid" something my mother taught me from a very young age. Great songs man, love your stuff
You can't fix an idiot. Glad she taught you that :)
Me: Attempts to succinctly and completely explain what I believe and why I think their view doesn't add up.
Them: Takes the smallest, most insignificant part of my argument and tries to build a case that I'm wrong based entirely around that single, minuscule flaw while ignoring literally everything else that I said.
I'm rather annoyed I can't add this to a playlist. It deserves a regular watch
If you unlike the video, like it againm go into library > liked videso, select the three dots and add it to a playlist like a normal video
So this might be a bit strong but i would die for you
so you'd die for a person you don't even know, you need to fix your priorities and your mind
Yikes
@@early5326 how about you don't tell people how they should live their lives (also I'm pretty they were joking so you just seem like a prick)
Ew
😄🤣🤣
If you’re confident in your arguments and it’s a public platform of some kind, instead of disengaging another option is to argue past the bad faith actor. Your goal isn’t always to convince the person you’re arguing with, but rather the potential audience. Bringing data, studies, and proper sources can be extremely effective because they’ll rarely have anything, making you the more legitimate party
This is true but you gotta know which is time to do which. You’re not gonna convince people by arguing with some rando somewhere that no one will see
In some occasions, I've done that with bad faith actors and got new people to engage in the convo.
The fact that I recognized a bit of myself in this rough but it helps me better myself and become a more well-rounded person.
I’ll sometimes make assumptions about what people believe without much evidence on them, which is pretty similar to a straw man argument, so I’m going to reflect on that and do better
also if they just randomly insult you or make assumptions about how you look irl, that's a major red flag to just step away
thats called ad hominem and it is a red flag indeed
Damn where was this when I needed it last year for my evaluation of argumentation class.
I could have used this 17 years ago. It transcends time
I’m gonna be honest i’m probably a bothsider and tone police but i really want to change
How you argue is easy to change once you identify your problems...just, next discussion with opposing viewpoints....dont try to win, and just see if they other side offers Valid, Logical points, and examine those points
Identifying your weaknesses in arguments is good!! I kind of both-side and “what about-“ but it sort of works in my favor lol, helps validate the other side while knocking them down simultaneously >:)
There's nothing wrong with being in between sides. The creator of this content only seems to point out the bad part (smug bothsiders) but many people find that they have common ground with each other in the gray areas of arguments and debates. It's not entirely a bad thing.
Bothsiders can be fine. If you look at the pros and cons of both sides that's fine, but intentionally being "on both sides" for the sake of never actually being decisive.
@@Oliver_McCombie I’m gonna be honest, I sit on the fence a lot and my main explanation is that I want to be balanced, virtue of the mean and all of that, but honestly I think a lot of it just has to do with my general fear of choice. I think I’ve gotten better about it though, and there are certainly some things which I defintely won’t vibe with, but I still end up kind of torn and undecided on most things.
(inb4 “nobody asked u, fack off”)
Here's my strategy: assume good faith and argue well. Stay respectful and sincere. Remember that the goal is not to convince the person you're arguing against, but to provide the lurker with a coherent response to the madness.
"It's OK to disengage"
But that makes them think they won!
Is holding out for the chance they think they lost worth your time and mental energy? Probably not.
Sometimes winning is spending your time doing something pleasant rather than arguing with an idiot.
I find that answering any aggression with either kindness or just disengaging from the conversation with ‘I see that we will most likely not see eye to eye, so we should leave it as it is’ usually works. There are those who will try and continue to argue or rile you up, but they’ll get bored if you don’t give them any fuel for their fire.
I’ve loved the shorts you’ve put together so far, thank you for taking the time to make them!
Bruh I just had the shittiest debate and every single one of these happened on the opposing side
Ok maybe I did one of these things. ONLY ONE I SWEAR
Which one
When people say "free speech," what they really mean is that they want to determine what speech is free.
People acting in bad faith, yeah. They also mean they want to say *who* gets a voice.
Hey a strawman. Dot get me wrong there are idiots who think they can hide behind free speech but don't understand that isn't freedom from consequences.
This is so spot on it's crazy. We need a whole series of these going over the most common forms of logical fallacies. And then those songs should be broadcast everywhere, and used in schools so that kids grow up knowing how to recognize faulty arguments.
Mans literally just described almost everybody lmao
He’s right tho, it’ll save you many headaches to just not argue with people who don’t know what they’re talking about or who don’t care to take in new information or change their views.
Eh same could be said about you on the other side
I disagree
@@TheAcidicMolotov bro literally did bothsidesism.
@@average_person444 that isnt an argument that disproves what i said
@TheAcidicMolotov Yes, that's correct. I just found it funny that you did it in a comment section of a video that features it as bad.
Love this. This should be the content of day 1 in school in a class entitled "How to not waste your precious time and energy on the Internet"
Would have helped me so much
Man's a proper time traveler 😁
I love that when you use their own argument against them it suddenly isn't an argument anymore 😂
Once someone said I hate animals cause I'm a vegatarian I was like no I love them and moped outta there lol
@@reddeadhorse4071 its cause im not a nuclear vegan lol
gives me the same vibe as the time someone, who is not vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, told me being vegetarian wasn’t enough and tried to convince me to be vegan.
@@Lauren-fi2rd everyone always says that to me without knowing situation or anything at all ._.
@@Lauren-fi2rd For health reasons, do what your doctor says. For moral reasons, do what you will. For economic, environmental, and group health reasons, it makes no sense to stop eating meat but keep eating dairy.
Well except beef. Beef is by far the worst, then dairy. Really you should just stop eating anything that comes from a cow. If you cared, which I don't, so I'm gunna go eat a burger.
@@hello93617 had us in the first half not gonna lie
this is literally just my dad. i will never bring up politics around him again. he just goes around screaming about how im brainwashed, and i need to "wake up" and constantly interrupting me, using the excuse that im "too young to understand" hes homophobic, transphobic, racist, basically nearly everything that isnt good and he will never listen nor will he ever change his views.
Basically a religious
Sounds horrible, hope things work out for u in the end
Based dad
@@jeff2209 bad faith argumeter spotted
Based Kokomi pfp
I love "youtube comment cherrypicking"
Basically a person only responds to comments they are confident they can argue against and ignore comments that actually challenge their argument
It can be annoying however why argue with something you know you can't win? It's like sending in little patrol boats to fight battle ships and destroyers, it's a pointless fight
That comes with the assumption that debates have a winner and a loser which I don't believe is true
“For some reason I thought it was my turn” That’s just the tear experience
The irony in this one is palpable
How is it ironic? He's just describing logical fallacies
@@franklinbadge1215 The irony is that he doesn't take his own advice
Y’all better pray for me I have a debate tmrw in-front of my whole class!!!!
😭😭😭
How did it turn out?
@@davidreeding9176 there's your answer
I got to use these points when a hate priest came to my campus. Dude left cause me and several others shot down everything he said lmao
For some more stuff. He said that Drag makes the Army weak, and I pointed out that Drag shows were super common with the Alies in WW2. Then let him know one of the deadliest snipers of the First World War was a woman. (Lyudmila Pavlichenko AKA. Lady Death)
Something I've heard is “Freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequence.”
All of this is everything... like a year's worth of therapy sessions wrapped up in one catchy tune.
It’s why I refuse to debate, most people just get rude as hell instead of looking for progressive ways to move forward. I could never be a politician...
Because politicians don't actually want to argue?
Progressive????? I'll have you know this god gifted nation doesn't deal with socialists!
There's honestly no point in "debating" on the internet. Majority of the time people just want to hear themselves talk.
@@EmotionsNeverLie it's fun when you find one who does though
@@EmotionsNeverLie The problem with internet arguments is everyone is always right, even when they're wrong. You just spent 15 minutes finding evidence and writing up a paragraph to prove your point? They'll ignore 90% of it and take that last 10% out of context.
I am so happy I got to see this. You have no idea how often all of these happen against me when I am trying to discuss things with people. It is infuriating that people don't realize these things.
Damn. I've seen like three of these in his own videos lmao. The disengage advice is blatantly the best advice he's ever given.
Love it, you're awesome
You're just great mate 👍🙂😙
Please keep making these. You're a saint to youtube.
Are you saying conservatives aren't nice, that's no way to argue.
Man this honestly made me feel so much better today, so thank you for being awesome!
This man is what the internet NEEDS
if only i could disengage an argument with my parents without coming off as disrespectful or closed minded
You can say you think the family will simply have to agree to disagree, see you at dinner/tomorrow/ whatever and leave the room. If they follow you to yell, leave the house if you can, and return in a couple hours to see if they’ve calmed down. Don’t reintroduce the topic or ask how they are; just begin normal behavior. If they’re violent, get the hell out. If you must, call the cops but ideally you can find a friend with parents who will be witnesses if you need them, or a trusted adult or mature friend. If you have injuries, document them. Photos and written description of the event and the kind of attack.
The problem is if you're arguing with your parents you CAN'T disengage T^T
If someone tells you to shut up you know they have lost and just want to continue arguing.
This has happened to me and the dude wouldnt stop telling people to go die or telling them their stupid just for not agreeing with him
Exactly. I lost a friend of two years for literally commenting on one of their posts, "Love what your doing here, but respectfully, I don't really agree". Out of nowhere she started pulling out stereotypes of Mexican people and putting me into them, started telling me I should kill myself, all while calling me bigoted and racist. It wasn't even a topic related to race in the slightest that I was disagreeing with.
That last bit is why I had to unfriend someone, it was the only way to disengage, I had been friends with them my whole life.
It hurts
Edit: 8 months later we are back as friends and are slowly trying to heal and learn the correct way to handle conflict of beliefs
Personally I think it is reasonable to point out someone's hypocrisy depending on the situation. If it is a purely logical "is this true or not" then it's not appropriate. A smoker telling you smoking is bad for your health is factually correct any way you slice it. Basically hypocrisy isn't a "proof" rather it is a plea to the speaker to apply their rules equally.
So if someone says for example "Your tone is rude. Change it." And the other person responds that the speaker is using that same tone, that's a reasonable complaint imo. There is no factual parameter of what constitutes "rude", but rules of conduct including what is considered "rude" should apply equally to all parties unless there is a reason for them to be applied selectively. The speaker should therefore have a reason why the tone is acceptable in their use but not the other person's, stop using said tone along with the other person to maintain fair rules of conduct, or permit the tone for both parties to maintain fair rules of conduct. This isn't an argument to prove what is "rude" but to have whatever the speaker sees "rude" as to apply equally. To do otherwise would be unfair and therefore unethical.
This is such a good explanation of what a strawman argument is, I always just assumes that it meant a weak argument in general
These days I bumped into an old comment thread I was in. The other person used the tone police trick on me. They told me I was being rude and made them uncomfortable and anxious, I felt guilty, apologized and said I was just overreacting.
I scrolled back.
Their original comment that made me angry in the first place said rape victims are selfish and have no reason to suffer with PTSD.
So you see, you were right to be angry. Like someone wrote upstream, arguments made against basic human rights are always in bad faith
This dude is so wholesome
Remember this works both ways
Are you listening to them
Are you open to change
literally every time i've tried to debate with my conservative family members. i've learned now it's okay to disengage.
I've had this experience more with librals but I think I just encounter more radical librals than conservetives and you got unlucky with a radicalised famaly.
Don't try to argue with the overly political, or fools, for both tend to lack reason. Not saying that that's true of all people who are fools or happen to be overly political, just the majority of the ones I have seen.
I actually find myself guilty of some of these, so now I'm gonna work on how not to do those
Ugh just the thought of how many times this has happened makes my head hurt
Generally, I don't debate someone with the intention of changing their views, they're usually too set in their views for that. I debate someone in the hope that someone who is open to change will read.
The worst debates are ones where your opponent will randomly switch around their logic to fit certain arguments without compensating for the changes made when his points are altered.
Kettle logic is a very effective tactic. If you don't know how to use or counter it I suppose you could try to negotiate against it before the debate, but if you don't account for it even being aware it exists that's your loss.
@@GodzillaFreak in a debate, my goal is not to win. My goal is to find the correct answer to a question. If you’re going to be inconsistent and contradictory during a debate, there isn’t a way for me to find that answer.
@@shroomfruit345Based
Love the song. Just here to remind everyone that no one owes anyone engagement. It is a gift we give each other. It is always ok to disengage.
But you should debate, because it sharpens rhetoric, teaches you new things, and ultimately helps you to handle intense verbal situations with verbal judo.
I have to remind my family that they're arguing an extreme position all the time, wether I'm on the side they're arguing against or not
I wonder why this three year old ukulele song showed up in my recommended recently? 🤔
In all seriousness, I cannot even begin to tell you how grateful I am for this little song that you wrote. It’s such a perfect summation of bad faith arguments, and I’ll keep it with me in case I ever find myself caught up in one again.
I love how light you can convey all these topics
lets not forget the classic grammar correctors (when you’re debating online)
Who even cares if they correct you or not, just ignore them since it isn't even a counterargument
If you wanna go ahead and make an album about psychology-related songs I'd be ALL here for it, I'm just saying👁👅👁
How dare you describe every single debate online ever
It’s always okay to disengage. Not being up for discussing something doesn’t make you wrong. If you’re getting upset, just go ahead and dip.
One thing I've always found useful in an argument is to just step back for a second, and ask the person your arguing with, EXACTLY what it is they're mad/arguing about. If you can get a simple answer in plain English, you can go from there, then both have a clearer understanding. If they can't, then they're just arguing it mad for the sake of it.
I disagree with everything you just said
@@aboi6638 what are the exact points you don't agree with
@@evandermursh8410 I already said that
I agree with aboi. The main reason of a debate is to have fun insulting people for no reason. If you have a reason to insult them, it gets too serious and boring
@@gabrielbarros493 I'm having a hard time detecting if this is a joke or not.
This!!!! "They think free speech means you have to listen to them" lol amazing
bruh😭
Very important😮 i hope you get many hearts and this short gets the attention it definetly needs❤
When people strawman me, i just make a WORSE strawman of myself that they're too afraid to even argue with.
It's funny. This is exactly how. I deal with these situations but I never realized it until I heard the song.
I LOVE how neutral this is, a lot of people will use these types of songs to diss on the other political side, or poop in someone else’s cereal. But this guy just addresses the idiots who won’t shut up and try to listen for once. Thanks for the song man, keep it up!
I've heard "yuck somebody's yum" but "poop in someone else's cereal?" Please tell me some creative bullies didn't literally do this to you because I have never heard this phrase before and MY brain is picturing it. Time for some brain bleach.
True, and we should all look at ourselves because we’ve all made bad faith arguments
How to spot a good debate:
1. Both sides Listen and Communicate Clearly and Effectively. Both showing and proving points the other side has seen and also didn’t consider.
2. Keeping a calm demeanor and a clear message while being stern with their voice, but not shouting.
3. Both prove their points and can also tell you about the other side’s opinions and ideas too, leaving with more than they came in with.
4. They let another decide the winning outcome, and win by the number of people believing their side.
we're not really talking about formal debates here....
@@MorningMeasureThis wasn't the description of a formal debate, it was the description of a good debate, part of that is being formal.
May I add a 5th? You shouldn't be disrespectful or use the words sweety and honey etc
Agree with all of it except the last position. Winning outcome shouldnt be decided by number alone.
I disagree with 2. It can be fun to match enthusiasm, sometimes, the really interesting, thought-provoking, most discussed lines are things said in the throws of anger. I actually really like it because we can analyze once the debate comes down and see and break down the critical parts of the debate. It causes reflection which can make interesting points. As long as it's temporary and reflects the flow and passion of both sides. I don't see being angry as an inherent weakness in debate.
Dont forget, Not Every Discussion Has To Be A Debate. You can talk about important things while making logical fallacies and still be correct and worth respecting. Debate is a competition. Meaningful dicussion is not.
“theyre bad at debating if they make assumptions” *assumes theyre not open to change*
Where did it say that? Any of it?
@@MrBeanboy7 0:08 for the assumptions and the end for the assumption about them. and the right way to protest against the government is to focus anger on the government not private businesses and the owners. instead of firebombing someones pawn shop, maybe try using that firebomb on a government building.
"Never try to debate with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
If they comment "I won" after you politely disengage you made the right choice.
I don't think whataboutism or bothsiding is necessarily coming from bad faith. Sometimes a point can be conceded or talked to death and "whatabout" can segway into a new topic of debate, or serve as an example or even an anology for the first. And not being firmly on either side is fine, especially with differences between parties seemingly getting wider by the day.
Yeah I agree it’s not necessarily bad but it is frustrating how often people bring up the damage caused by some BLM protests as if it will magically prove their argument no matter what it’s about.
That’s not really what “whataboutism” is though. If you’re just conceding the point and moving on to another topic that’s just normal debate progression but whataboutism specifically refers to when someone tries to derail the conversation by going “well what about your side? They do the bad thing that you’re accusing my side of doing” (but usually in a much less significant way that doesn’t excuse their side from that same bad thing). It’s purposeful misdirection
@@quarkonium3795 its purposeful because purposeful. Arguments about stances are ingrained with opinion and saying that your side does something they are excusing others is hypocritical and should be addressed
@@TheAcidicMolotov
The problem isn’t the hypocrisy it’s that what they bring up is either so insignificant in comparison to the topic being discussed or so far out of left field it’s not even part of the topic.
“What about …” is ok. You can bring in supporting evidence to add to the discussion.
“Whataboutism” is intended to derail discussion.
@@zemoxian im glad you understand definitions, but just like the people this guys videos are trying to mock he is doing the same and not understanding the nuance you just outlined
I got into an argument with someone about moss. Yes, that’s right. Moss. I said “lawns should have native diversity instead of pristine lawns of invasive grass. Moss is good for the environment, and is low maintenance.” They came at me for being an ‘eco terrorist’ and somehow made it into a race issue. It went on for several hours of them saying I was wrong, and a horrible person. That moss belongs in cool climates and large forests (I live in a cool climate, near a large forest. They ignored that fact) that deer need grass to much on (the deer are well fed, and don’t eat lawns anyway. Again they ignored that) and that it was eroding the earth (there’s enough clover, flowers, and trees to keep the dirt right where it is. Again, that was ignored).
While I’m pretty sure it was a troll (they called me a snivelling fool, for God’s sake) it was just deranged enough for it to have been real opinions of a shifty person.
Yo miss is actually pretty great as a lawn!
Okay but have you eaten it? Good stuff.
The argument I heard against moss lawns is that they can be extremely slippery and damage easily, so you wouldn't actually be able to enjoy your lawn. That said, I 100% have done no research on the subject, and am just not able to stop myself from commenting this, I think what I'm trying to do is ask if you've heard this too, and if so do you know if it's true, but am only now able to articulate that thought as I type this, and I'm leaving the whole comment because I find it kinda funny.
While debating this kind of people, I do not disengage, whenever I realize I'm not changing their mind nor having a meaningful conversation, my goal becomes to annoy them untile *they* disengage.
Listening to this video and realizing i do too many of these things lol
Atleast you’re selfaware of it, wich is The first step towards change.