VTA, SRA & CSN - Crosby Stills & Nash - Analogue Productions Atlantic 75. Compared & discussed
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- čas přidán 24. 02. 2024
- First of all I am comparing the new Analogue Productions - Atlantic 75 issue of Crosby Stills & Nash's seminal self-titled debut album with the 2001-2002 Bernie Grundman mastered Classic Records reissue, and the UK original first pressing.
However this led to an evaluation of VTA: Vertical Tracking Angle, SRA: Stylus Rake Angle and the varying thickness of original, 180 and 200 gram reissues. In this video I discuss these issues and the effect they can have on the sound of these various pressings.
I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding VTA: do you bother with it at all? do you adjust for each and every record? Please let me know in the comments.
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Great Wally Heider studios album, great review, thank you. 'Stills', wow what a player, does all the bass and all keys, very distinctive style. (For those pensioners on a budget, like myself, sounds great on the Bernie Grundman 2006 CD, bass not too ploddy, pretty bouncy:0)
I'm glad you enjoyed the review, and thanks for the great feedback.
oh man...this album transcends all kinds of technology and feedback, it's a freaking work of art.....good channel, cheers
Glad you’re enjoying the channel! Thanks!
Good video. Thanks for the review. Bernie Grundman mastered both the Classic Records 200g and the new Atlantic 75, but both sound different. I was expecting the Atlantic 75 to improve on the Classic Records at least in terms of the noise floor. It does that - the A75 is a dead quiet. However, I prefer the Classic Records 200g pressing. A byproduct of turning up the bass level on the A75 is that it seems to muddy the mid range and transient highs. I prefer the mid range and transient highs on the Classic Records 200g.
Interesting… I thought they were from the same plates so were in fact the same cut. In which case the only difference would be the pressing. Although I may be wrong on that.
@@DaveDenyer It's not clear to me that they used the same stamper and didn't cut a new lacquer and stamper. The mastering on my A75 sounds different than my Classic Records version. The A75 sounds weightier in the bass to me, but the transient highs aren't as a good as on my Classic Records version. Overall, I prefer the Classic Records version. Maybe I got luck with a really good Classic Records pressing. They varied quite a bit in quality back in the day.
Thanks Dave. A very interesting video. I'm off to invent an automatic VTA adjuster that works via Bluetooth and the vinyl catalogue number!!
That would be a great product. In theory of course, quite possible, in practise maybe not (it'd need to take in the exact pressing of course)
Thank you, i learned a great deal.
Glad you found it interesting.
Yes, as Acoustic Sounds owns the Classic Records library of master discs, that is what they used for the Atlantic 75th anniversary 45rpm version. Except instead of the 200g one-sided version, they did a 180g two-sided version.
The difference between the Classic Records 45rpm version and the Analogue Productions version is the pressing quality. It's hard to beat the RTI pressings using CR's proprietary vinyl mix.
Yes, I have an original U.S. copy, which I bought new when it first came out, the CR 45 rpm version, the original Atlantic anniversary release, the Mofi release and now the the AP 75th anniversary version.
Thanks for confirming, that’s what I thought. Cheers!
Hi Dave,
I watch almost any of your videos and appreciate your listening critics. I'd consider revisiting the lp's that you mentioned at the end of the video with the new vta setting.
Cheers,
Avi
Thanks for the feedback. I spent a lot of time re-finding my preferred VTA setting following this experimentation. It’s not a task I enjoy on the current Glanz tonearm. I am thinking of trying another arm.. .
Great video, as always. I love that my VPI arm has easily adjustable VTA. I keep a kitchen scale next to my record shelves and weigh the record when I pull it out of the sleeve then adjust the VTA when I put it on the platter. It only takes about 10 seconds and over time I’ve memorized what numbers on the VTA dial correspond with various record weights. Is it critical to adjust VTA when I’m playing two records back to back that are within 5 grams of each other? No, of course not but it’s so fast to do that it’s become part of the record playing ritual
Hi @TapestryUnited, that sounds like a great procedure. Thanks for sharing.
BTW, clever title.
I have a first U.S. “Monarch” pressing, and the BG Rhino, which he did awhile after the Classic Records version.
The information, on Discogs, for my first issue, states that “this issue contains the correct mix for the left and right vocals on “Long Time Gone”.
I would compare the two, but my TT is down.
When I got the Rhino issue, I played part of the the first track, and did notice the stronger bass.
Other than that, they sounded very similar.
Will report back when I can check on the “correct mix”.
p.s. Am I the only one who didn’t notice, until a few days ago, the word play with “Suite: (Sweet) Judy Blue eyes”?
I have a feeling that BG simply preferred it with more bass...
@@DaveDenyer
BG knows how to master, maybe if the VTA was adjusted to correspond to his initial lathe VTA parameters you would hear his true intention?
@@DaveDenyer Bernie Grundman Mastering and Steven Stills are both in Los Angles, California.
So, like, Bernie should have called Steve over to his studio…
@@wickedexile4531 that was precisely what I attempted to do: to readjust my eta to see what the cut actually sounded like. When correctly set the sound is superbly detailed, textured, spacious, but does still have noticeably more bass. For my taste that is, in the case of this particular album, not preferable.
Jeez, didn' think I'd need a slide-rule to watch a CSN record review.
Haha, sorry abut that Michael, I hadn't planned to get into his either, but I felt it warranted the discussion.
Dave , like your channel. In my opinion the 75th series is too audiophile . I compared phil collins and dr John with the originals. I clearly like the organic and relaxed sound of the originals. Voices are much more natural. The 75th serie is music for the head, the originals for the heart!
Thanks for your feedback. I just used your quite in my latest review!
I do not adjust VTA after my initial set-up. During set-up I use a medium weight 150 gram record to approximate midpoint between 200 gram and 1979’s dynaflex records.
That’s pretty much what I do, frankly. Thanks for your feedback.
Good honest review, and I thank you for that. I'll probably give this AP Atlantic 75 a miss. VTA is the bane of my HiFi life and your analysis was fascinating. I find that if I try an "average" VTA that attempts to cover all vinyl weights then the outcome is noticeably sub-optimal. I have pondered with the thought of a spacer between record and turntable to lift older vinyl (some of which from the mid 70s can be as light as 120) but that then introduces all sorts of sonic complications. The VTA on my SME arm is a pain to meddle with and, as a consequence, I opted for the two turntables with different VTA settings solution..............not ideal but with one set for 180g vinyls and the other for 140g I find I can avoid the very real bass variability to which you refer.
Thanks for your feedback Ian. I’ve also tried using record mats of different thicknesses, but ultimately I am tempted to get a tonearm with adjustable vta while playing.
There are three VTA variables to consider. 1st is the original lathe cutter head stylus ( they wear very quickly and are replaced every 50 hours or so) after the lacquer is cut it is monitored at the lathe with a playback stylus bringing in the 2nd VTA variable. Finally your home set up brings in the 3rd VTA variable. The mounting of the stylus on the cantilever on these three transducers is not precise at all (see the studies done by Wally tracker ) This variability has the largest impact on tonality more so than record weight and good mastering. Each record needs adjustment by ear to maximize performance. Contact me for further details on how this interaction is determinant in maximizing fidelity.
I log a VTA calibration for each record on the inner sleeve. It’s an easy by ear adjustment that is required on first listen only.
@@wickedexile4531 that's a good idea. As I mention in the video I have several (well, some) friends who adjust VTA on a record-by record basis. When I had the ability to do this I didn't: I just has a couple of approximate settings and then tweaked if I felt it necessary (as you say, it's quite obvious when the setting is right).
I do feel adjustable arm height (with a scale) is the only realistic way of achieving this...
I swap the mat. I have 1,2, and 3 mm thick ones. Years ago I used that same type caliper to measure record thickness of typical records, 70s, 80s, and 180g, and ever since I just swap mats to compensate.
Good idea: I have tried this approach however I prefer the sound of my system without a turntable mat... I have the feeling I'll be changing arms in the not-too-distant future...
The other answer I also did in one room is two different TT's. I don't use these whoppingly expensive tables, I use old ones I maintain with good arms and cartridges so the cost wasn't significant. This morning I listened to 180g SAM reissue of Donald Byrd on one followed by a 60s recording of a Shubert piano waltz on the other without losing a step. By the way, keep up the very focused videos. The ones on cleaning have been great. The interview with cleaner guy outstanding. Cleared up things I wondered about for years.
@@moskowitzmark thanks again for the feedback. Glad you liked the record cleaning videos...
.....from now to be known as the Geometry episode!
thanks much Dave we love ya :)
LOL, “The Geometry Episode” it is then, thanks for your support PK!
Most people don’t have this precise method of adjusting their tone arms and changing them for every record that’s a little thicker??? That’s a little OCD to pull out all those instruments and adjust everything for each different record! But if you enjoy doing that it’s fine for you!!
While i agree most people do not have the adjust-ability, i do not agree that it is ocd. Some folk drive there car every day and do not think about it any further while others buy accessories and modification and tune up there engine to run better and more to their liking. It is a lifestyle choice, not necessarily an obsessive compulsion. Although it can turn into that ;)
Hi Dave, I don't do this for every record. That would drive me insane (if not already). However if you have the feature on your tonearm it is really not that difficult to find the correct setting by ear, and once you hear that you'll realise that you only need a few settings for most of your collection.
It's perhaps worth considering whether a great pressing played with the wrong eta will sound worse than a mediocre pressing played at the correct via...
@@ivansbacon agreed, I did swap from height adjustable (during play) arm to one I felt better sounding that didn't have this facility. However that doesn't mean that when you get it set correctly it makes a very obvious difference (improvement). A spherical stylus would of course be another option.
Try using some sheets of news paper under the platter mat great for fine tuning maybe up to three or four but even one can make a difference
Thanks for the suggestion @jedi-mic.
I love your channel, but I find these kind of discussions (changing VTA by 0.3 mm) incredibly tedious. That’s barely going to affect the SRA at all. I once got a new record mat that was substantially thicker than the previous one I had (more than one mm). And I somehow went a few months before it occurred to me that I should readjust VTA. I hadn’t been able to tell that it was off and wasn’t able to tell any significant difference afterwards. Vinyl is an imperfect medium by default and if I obsess too much over small details, I find myself forgetting to enjoy the music.
I can only guess that when you inserted that thicker mat your eta wasn't perfectly set beforehand: it simply can't be for every record - that's my point here - there is no 'one setting' for all records. It's a bit like a camera lens, a bit off-focus either way you'd not necessarily know which way to move the lens, however when it is spot on it is very obviously right.
Anyway, sorry you found it tedious, but I felt it was worth mentioning.
No need to be sorry, I generally find your passion to be an important part of why I enjoy your channel. I guess, this particular topic just inspired me to add the perspective that in my opinion, at some point hyper focus on detail starts to take away from the musical experience. And that this may be a case where I would question how much of a benefit there is to be had. But then again, while I do have a decent system, it’s nothing like your set up
I was meant to receive this on Friday morning but Royal Mail decided to send it back to sender (when I was home all day) because they’re all a bunch of w***ers.
Hopefully it will make its way back to me in the week as I can’t wait to hear this.
I have an American original that I stumbled on in a local record shop for £25 and I’ve always thought it sounded great so if AP’s version tops it I’ll be very happy!!
Hope it turns up soon. Thanks for the feedback
@@DaveDenyer I’ll let you know how it compares once I finally get to hear it. Cheers for another great video Dave! 🤟
Vta explained in lay man terms about time 😁 I always wondered if the thickness of a record would affect the sra and vta and azimuth on a turntable ? My other thought was would it be possible for a tonearm to be made that could have settings you could save and with the turn of a knob or switch goto that settings i.e one for normal vinyl one for 180g and one for 200g, or just have 2 arms one set for every day and one set for 180g mind you itbwould probably be easier if it was built into the turntable rather than the arm so a know or switch that adjust the hight of the whole tonearm, now thats an idea maybe I should patient that idea 😂😂😂
Hi Paul. There are arms that allow 'during play' vta adjustments which makes finding the exact setting much easier, and some of those have a scale so you can make note of, and return to the required setting for different pressings. The Clearaudio 'VTA Lifter' for example, fits into the armband and raises and lowers the entire tonearm.
Learn something new every day thank you 😁
Took you a LONG time to explain VERY little of use, Sir, if I may say so. After all, the differences in the sound of a record, is close to indistinguishable for most owners of decent record players whether their cartridges are set up as correct as it is humanly possible to do with all those gadgets, or if they're simply set up right, using one's ears and a good system.
I say so because most users own mid-fi record players, tonearms, wiring and cartridges, not to mention the phono stages. And a bloody lot more than half the owners of true high-end systems have no idea what to listen for, and thus have no clue if their this or that is set up right or not. Sorry for being tough on you, but I think you get the idea. What a man learns in 59 years with hi-fi as his main interest, as I have, just can't be explained like this, in 30 minutes. I appreciate your attempt though, even though you didn't manage to teach me anything at all. Sorry for ruining your mood.
Hi, to be honest I really do think setting vta (along with most parameters) is best done by ear, but having done that it can save an awful lot of time if the setting is recorded on some sort of scale (for example I put masking tape on the floor to record the position of my speakers once I'm happy with their positioning, done by ear). Also, I wanted to get across that the tiniest changes are required to find that exact spot...
Anyway, perhaps the major point I was trying to get across is that there is no one correct vta setting for all records (obviously this doesn't apply with spherical stylii), and so "in the real world": as I explained; I don't adjust for every single record, so therefore I am not necessarily judging the fullest potential of the record.
I'm certainly not trying to preach to those that already understand all this but as you rightly say there are many folk out there who don't fully understand the importance of various factors in set-up.
I hope this helps explain my thinking. Thanks anyway for your comments.