Hydrogen Boilers, Heat Pumps & The Future of Heating
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- We're joined by Martyn Bridges, Director of Marketing and Technical Support at Worcester Bosch Group, to discuss hydrogen boilers and the future of heating our homes with reduced emissions.
MORE ON HYDROGEN BOILERS FROM WORCESTER BOSCH
Why hydrogen boilers?
But for the heating and hot water industry, removing carbon is much more difficult, largely because of the existing infrastructure, where the majority of UK homes use natural gas for heating
Yet, with a third of UK greenhouse gases coming from our homes, it is quite clear that the UK will not meet its climate change targets without a change in home heating technology and fuel.
Replacing natural gas boilers with hydrogen gas may be the simplest solution to the nation’s heating problems. The only by-product of burning hydrogen gas is water, meaning that it is a carbon-free fuel source and could be a key method to help decarbonise heating and hot water in UK homes.
How do hydrogen boilers work?
A hydrogen boiler, in theory, can fit into a current boiler’s physical space in the home without much disruption to the homeowner. With a similar build to existing boilers, installers will already have most skills necessary to fit these products too.
Over the last few years, leading boiler manufacturer Worcester Bosch have not only been advocating for hydrogen, but they have also developed a prototype boiler that can run on 100% hydrogen gas.
The prototype has been designed to also run effectively on natural gas. This means that in the future if hydrogen gas becomes reality, those who have a ‘hydrogen-ready’ boiler can simply convert to hydrogen without the need for an entirely new heating system.
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Martyn is very impressive. He has provided more practical info in 45 mins than the Govt in 10 years!
Realistically they produces many reports with this type of information. It is just that it takes CZcams videos for some of it to be translated to the consumer. Which itself is a good thing. Why would the govt pay to do it when channels like this and the news do it for free 👍
Hes my sisters dad 😎😎
I think government energy planners should watch this
Do you read the reports the government produces?
@@1991elliot Government reports are very useful, burn them to heat our homes and get some use out of them , otherwise they are useless.
Martyn should get a pay rise from W. Bosch for this puts his company in such a good light. Absolutely fascinating the most informative thing I've ever watched on this subject.
Very intelligent bloke knows his industry, very interesting to listen to
Knows how centralised energy production works, yes! Less so decentralised, let’s see what happens in the future. My guess is a shift to decentralised production, but we’ll see.
He's been in the industry a long time yes
That was by a country mile the most informative and interesting discussion on the various heat sources available . Especially on heat pumps.
Many thanks to you both.
Glad it was helpful!
@@SkillBuilder It's not just domestic that take their supply from the gas main. . . What about the chip shop fryers, overhead radiant in shops and factories, and all the other industrial uses ? How do you change all that to hydrogen.
@ONC HNC You cannot convert those things to run on hydrogen and if you converted them to electric we would have to build a dozen more coal fired power stations the size of Drax.
@@carphunter5042 No heat in schools, hospitals, or big box stores, neither. That shit cannot be converted to electric because there isn't enough electric.
@@carphunter5042 A domestic electric supply is 100A at 240v that is around 20KW of power, a domestic gas supply is 65KW. This only gets worse with commercial.
As a building specification professional, I find this video a most informative discussion and I recommend it to the wider industry. Thank you and Martyne for producing the video, and for your kindness in sharing your knowledge and experience so generously.
Wow - unassuming engineers with an absolute wealth of knowledge (and no axe to grind) - unsung heroes, thank you men, fantastic conversation
Brilliant discussion. You two both need to have a serious sit-down talk with Boris, then maybe he'll see sense and get the country converted over to hydrogen, not just for housing, but for cars as well.
For cars, hydrogen is just a store of protons. The process of converting green electrons to protons is expensive and wasteful in terms of energy. Far better just to take the green electrons and store them directly in consumer car batteries or use them directly to heat domestic water or the dwelling. .... unless, of course, the real goal is to NOT use green electrons but to use methane to produce the hydrogen. Then we remain beholden to big oil to supply energy and they can carry on their merry way dumping CO2 in to the atmosphere, controlling the price of energy to fatten their profits and bonuses.
Boris Johnson has forgotten how to have a intelligent conversation !his CABINET is full of idiots! All THREE PARTIES HAVE THE SAME CURUPTED POLITICIANS!.WHAT'S THIS COST COMPARED TO BAILING THE BANKS OUT?.
@@mb-3faze yep totally agree. We should just switch to electric and spend our efforts on properly doing renewables- we don’t need any new technology to sort this just effort and if we lead the way it will be a big net benefit not a cost. The only reason to delay is to protect big oil with their lobbying to protect their 2bn USD profit a day worldwide. All while getting an estimated 5 trillion dollars of subsidies from governments around the world. That’s $625 for every single human on the planet, every year, to continue destroying us, its insane. Great in it’s time, but time to move on.
Look up Liebreich’s ladder and see why hydrogen is only useful for a handful of applications. Heating categorically isn’t one of them. This is blatant greenwashing.
@@1991elliot I can think of two applications where hydrogen is a plus. One is rocket propulsion (not on the Liebreich ladder) - hydrogen has the best specific impulse numbers and the other is so-called green steel. (Hydrogen is used instead of carbon to remove the oxygen from iron ore and the idea is you make the hydrogen on site using renewable electricity and hydrolysis - no massive compression or cooling required and no transportation costs either.)
I think Liebreich is even wrong to consider hydrogen for off-road (I.E. miles from electricity supply), remote trains etc. Hydrogen is such a PITA to store that diesel is still better - if produced greenly. (Is that a word?)
But burning hydrogen in homes, using it for fuel-cell consumer cars or using it directly in combustion engines like JCB is trying to do - just nonsense.
Report from Cache Valley, Utah, USA: I proved the naysayers wrong when I put in solar panels. I proved 'm wrong when I got the electric vehicle. But with the heat pump installation, I'm a bit red in the face and not from the heat. As you say, it's great for most of the year but December, January, and February are challenging. The only way I limp through is by programming the heating schedule to only heat during the warmest hours of the day and then coast through the night without heating, which would work quite well were it not for the home having been built in the 1950s. We've put in attic insulation and high performance windows but it's not nearly enough. Wanted: way to super-insulate a 1950s built home.
All this tells us is that the heat pump is poorly specified, nothing more
Bean Beanland I think you miss the point. He's trying to run his heat pump predominantly on solar, which is at a minimum when heat demand is at its highest. That has nothing to do with the specification of the heat pump- it's an issue with the earths position relative to the sun!
Not entirely clear ..... have you an Air Source heat pump that becomes inefficient at night due to the low outside air temperature and is therefore very expensive to run at night or is it just that you are trying to avoid using mains electricity to run the heat pump as another commentator surmised? As you may know a Ground Source heat pump gives a better Coefficient Of Performance (COP) in very cold weather compared to an Air Source type.
Regarding insulating a 1950s house, that is problematic and there are many videos here on CZcams covering the subject of insulating old houses. I guess things to consider are possible condensation on the cold side of any interior insulation and the use of thermal breaks.
That was your best video ever Roger. It was really good to hear Martyn speak. He sounds like a good down to earth bloke, somewhat like your self Rodger. We ought to have him in charge of the 'department of heating' in government.
Fascinating discussion and wise words: should be prescribed viewing for all in Westminster!
Hear hear , a must at Westminster 👍
@@petercurrie3953 thanks! It was great to hear Roger on BBC2's Jeremy Vine Show today as he calmly exposed some awkward truths about trying to retrofit heat pumps: let's hope some right honourable members (unfortunate term!) perked up as a result. Perhaps all the hot air in that establishment could be put to some use!
Well Martin & Roger, that was absolutely fascinating and probably IMHO the single most informative video I’ve ever watched. I have to applaud you both for this presentation. Thank you 👍👏👏👏
Glad you enjoyed it
It's a pretty long video, though I'm sure it covered how hydrogen boilers are many times less efficient than heat pumps right? How you have to waste a lot of energy to make the hydrogen, the huge cost of making it considering the waste etc?
Here here! I agree.
@@hopkapi you guys obviously don't know your stuff. Your not part of the team out there lying about heat pumps are you. I suggest you go read up on fridges. I tried this technology back in the 70s with a prescold compressor redundant from a Tesco's supermarket
Heat pumps are efficient, no doubt about that.
BUT, are they efficient enough to overcome the higher “cost per BTU” of electricity vs natural gas?
No, unfortunately they’re not.
They have a COP of approximately 2 when the external temperature is around +2degC and the unit is asked to heat water to 55degC.
That means, the unit is twice as efficient as a straight electric heater.
Well, natural gas is about 1/3rd of the price of electricity (per BTU), so a heat-pump doesn’t quite get to the same level as nat gas, but it’s close enough to be a God-send in rural areas that don’t have natural gas.
Just stumbled across this and even though I'm not in a position to use the information at the moment, I am so impressed with the quality of it that I shall ensure it is retained in some way! I did spend a lot of time researching heat pumps a few years ago, but I've learned so much more in the course of your honest conversations and the realities around them. Thanks so much.
Do learn the reality of hydrogen too:
Interesting that hydrogen is being suggested as the solution for those off the gas grid initially. For each of those properties that has a lpg tanker going to it you would need 17 trucks carrying hydrogen at 700 bar. I can't see the residents of rural villages being okay with that...
Blue hydrogen (fossil hydrogen with partial carbon capture) will not get us to net zero, not even close. It produces more CO2 than just burning methane as we currently do [How green is blue hydrogen 2021] largely due to inefficiency, fugitive emissions and carbon capture ineffectiveness. The environment can't handle hydrogen, itself having a global warming potential of 33 over 20 years (33 times worse for global warming than carbon dioxide).
If you look at the whole cycle of extracting the energy to getting the heat in the property you will see that hydrogen needs 5-6 times the energy of using heat pumps. We literally can't build that many wind turbines to accommodate hydrogen and it would require much more grid reinforcement than just using heat pumps.
in cost terms whether green or blue then hydrogen will be at least double the running cost. Nobody will realistically be able to afford hydrogen. This is a consequence of multiple stages each with a non-negligible efficiency drop.
There is no property that can't use a heat pump, energy systems catapult showed this. Any house requires a heat load to keep it at a given temperature, if you have a leaky house using hydrogen doesn't suddenly change that, it'll cost hugely more to provide that heat load with hydrogen vs a correctly fitted heat pump. However with any property reducing that head load will save you a lot of money.
Heat pumps are more expensive upfront and won't currently run cheaper unless you get a decent installer. If you get one who doesn't know what they're doing then it will cost more.
However if we change the energy market so that gas prices don't force high electricity prices then a heat pump will absolutely be cheaper than gas or hydrogen to run. At that point upfront cost will matter less, demand will skyrocket, with increased demand comes economies of scale.
in terms of infrastructure electric is cheaper, we have to rebuild the grid to handle renewables and electric vehicles anyway. Don't tell me we can use hydrogen vehicles for that instead, they cost twice as much to buy and three times as much to run, that's why they currently occupy a thousandth of the market share of batter electric vehicles.
This is just carbon and cost.
Trials were mentioned as having poor engagement, I think people should look at how the hydrogen trials are going too...
Safety is a strange one on hydrogen. It is more explosive than the current methane, it has a wider explosive range, lower minimum ignition energy and it is a smaller leakier molecule. It causes problems in unlined steel pipes through steel embrittlement so most existing pipework will need to be lined, joints made more "airtight". However while hydrogen is very energy dense in terms of mass it is not energy dense in terms of volume so you have to pump more of it in to get the same energy however because of this low volumetric energy density the explosions it causes aren't as severe. An independent BEIS report by ARUP suggested that like for like a hydrogen household swapped out directly would cause 4 times the explosions, however with extra safety measures (excess flow/pressure relief valves) this goes down to about three and is considered on a likelihood and severity balance to cause the same amount of injuries as current gas. I prefer not blowing up in the first place, maybe that is weird of me.
If normal safety principles of ALARP or similar were used hydrogen would not be allowed to be used.
Of course risk of explosion with heat pump is basically zero. They are safer.
In terms of ventilation for hydrogen because hydrogen is lighter than air then you have to vent at the top of rooms... The top of rooms is where hot fluids (liquids and gasses) rise to, (basic GCSE science) venting at this point is going to lose a lot of expensive heat.
So what do we do with that pipe infrastructure then? 40 billion is a lot of money to just ignore... I agree! It should be used for heat networks paired with heat pumps, you get rid of all the problems of cold temperature shocks to heat pumps because you have a large underground heat source at moderate temperature.
Maybe I'm just a nasty person who doesn't like hydrogen. Nope, I want to see the hydrogen economy grow but I want it to be used where it makes sense to use it and reduce emissions quickly, replace fossil hydrogen with green hydrogen. Use it for its chemical properties to make fertiliser. Use it in hard to abate industries in industrial clusters. It absolutely does not belong in homes or personal transport.
Beware the hydrogen salesman!
At last, two knowledgable guys who live in the real world and talk sense about the future of heating. That engineer from Worcester should be made Energy Minister!
Absolutely!
He is a sensible chap, but hardly unbiased. I'd want to ask him some pretty searching questions about his decarbonisation pathways before making him the minister.
You spelled salesman wrong.
This should be shown as a documentary on tv. Very informative and easy to follow. Thank you for making the video
Factual and unbiased. Thank you very much.
As a bit of a tree hugger I’m really interested in this subject, this type of discussion is just what is needed if we are to solve the problems we have created for our selves. Unfortunately politician’s seem incapable of delivering the leadership we need. Keep up the good work.
Theyre not our leaders, only meant to represent we the people
At last, someone who knows what he's talking about. Very informative and thanks to making this video.
Cheers mate, great discussion. Very interesting... I think I'll stick with gas boiler for now. 👍👍
This is becoming one of my favourite sites. So much covered. Great summary of the pros and cons of these new technologies from Martin.
All this leads me to think we need to spend money on insulation in the first instance, instead of what is pouring out of our roofs , walls windows & doors. producing heat is going to be costly if you cannot contain it! to coin a phrase RANT OVER!
Yes
Quite. Most of the difficulties they are pointing out (high bills, new piping needed, slow reaction times) are solved by some insulation and airtightness so the building isn't crap. Most UK buildings can have their heat demand reduced by 80 or 90%. The catch is that this is invasive and expensive to do well. EWI is both technically best and least-intrusive. (I've Enerphited my house (1960s detached) and it cost 25 grand, but now I only need 1-2kW when it's -7 outside).
What a brilliant 45 minutes of most valuable and informative information. Many thanks guys for this .
I’m going to share the hell out of this to hopefully educate more people . 👌
A brilliant discussion. I am an engineer of over thirty years, but learned loads. Thank you.
I had a good few hours to spare whilst having my double glazing replaced,this was time well spent. I've learnt so much thanks guys,listening to people who really know what they are talking about is so refreshing.
Totally disconnected to this subject. Which company did you use for double glazing pls?. Looking at various and I’m left confused. Thank you in advance.
Great Video Rodger well done...Remember this story a lady moved into a new house somewhere just out side the city just outside the Gas Network she really wanted gas for her new gas cooker. Hubby met two guys in the pub (as you do) they said they could supply the Gas. The couple was going on holiday the two chaps from the pub said they could fit it all and have it up and running by the time they came back in two weeks time but they would need paid in cash.. Sure enough the couple came back and low and behold her gas cooker was working she was pleased. About a week later the gas ran out. The lady phoned the gas board to ask why she had no Gas. Gas board were puzzled as their gas network did not cover this area. Gas board sent out Gas engineers to see what was what. Sure enough gas pipes ran into the ground from her kitchen at the side of her house. Gas board following the pipes started digging . The pipes went into two large gas canisters buried under the ground. Ah well such is life as they say.
I really appreciate this format. Excellent discussion. Full of technical details. The sort of level one used to get on the BBC back in the seventies and before dumbing down. I am really impressed.
Brilliant interview and great comments from the Worcester Bosch man. No axes to grind and honest assessments of the possible future of heating systems.
What about looking at insulation in the same manner?
Thanks for posting!
At the end of the day, Worcester's name was made in gas boilers, but their brand is synonymous with home heating... they stand to make a hefty profit from replacing gas boilers with anything, as long as they don't miss the boat. Which means, hopefully, that they don't have a horse in the race and can just follow whatever makes most sense.
@@audigex Actually Worcester's name was made in oil boilers, gas came later, in particular due to the 1970s oil crisis.
Absolutley fascinating and really engaging for the full 45 minutes. I could have listened to that for hours.
As a young HVAC Installer still making my way in the industry, I'll never forget my senior lead mentor telling me that the key to a good HVAC system is the insulation used to maintain the work put into conditioning the house in the first place.
So before you upgrade or change any system, try to see what would happen if you just improved the insulation in your home.
Very good advice,
Not just insulation the controls on your system are very important tech now allows you to zone every room with smart TRV's, I know I have fitted them it really saves money without a loss of comfort. Optimisation and weather compensation of the boiler is a must.
@@coyote5735 no good for the trend of large open plan spaces.
@@robertday8619 Open plan can be zoned i.e. underfloor heating. In fact, good controls are essential even in a house. Therein lies comfort and energy conservation. You can zone any space.
@@coyote5735 Yep, I built my own house and have a large open plan ground floor and UFH all zoned. Because I have masses of insulation in floor, walls and roof my heating is really cheap.
What a brilliant explanation. The kind of adult and practical discussion that is required. Nothing wrong with going green as long as it’s planned correctly and we switch nothing off until the alternatives are ready to go. Especially from an affordability point of view
Another point recently one of my neighbours moved and the new owner installed air source heat pumps, very laudable. He also has a very large log burner and a very large log pile that reduces rapidly when the weather changes
That discussion provided a lot of info and food for thought. It left me thinking the UK government needs to contract people with Martyn's knowledge, experience, and ability to explain the issues, into spending a significant amount of time being a senior member of the relevant policy making teams, and then to make decisions based on their wisdom.
What a lovely real example and background approach conversation. This gave me lots of insights into what the problems are changing over to the modern and more ecological solutions of heating your house and hot water usage. I will get a training next month pointed on helping consumers insulating their homes. I guess will get a lot of questions you just have answered. Please do more videos like this (on all kind of rebuilding projects) :-))
That is really interesting to hear about heat pumps.
When we were considering a do-over of the whole house we was going to go with a heat source pump, but now we are just doing up it seems like a ridiculous idea.
What a great, honest and insightful discussion. The point raised that even UK new build homes are not even built to accommodate future changes to energy supply (without great cost) is particularly interesting and gives me confidence in my Victorian terrace property refurb/insulation’s being of sound investment and not a lost cause.
Martyn and the Worcester brand come across very well in this video. Thanks to both for sharing your expertise.
Miles away from what our channel is about but without doubt an incredible source of expertise and information. Thanks for all your hard work, brilliant content from someone who is an expert in his field.
Interesting conversation, one everyone should watch to be informed, as at the moment we are only getting a one sided story. Well done 👏🏼
Roger, I've been following you on your building channel for a long time now, which I love. This is the second show I've watched of yours on green technology, you were excellent, especially this one on heating. Thanks for bringing all this valuable information to the viewers.
Hydrogen pipelines would have to be installed “leak tight”. Aside from the high cost of producing Hydrogen, the cost of installation, testing, commissioning and subsequent maintenance of Hydrogen transmission and distribution pipelines will be very high and uneconomic. Hydrogen is the smallest element on the periodic table, and susceptible to diffuse and or leak through many of the commonly used plumbing materials. The selection of the correct, compatible materials, along with High integrity installation techniques, along with high integrity inspection and testing techniques such as High Vacuum Helium leak testing may be required. Can the domestic consumer afford to install Hydrogen heating systems??
No, a recent european indipendent study found that running and maintaining a H2 boiler would cost twice that what it would cost using heat pumps . H2 boiler and H2 heating is mainly pushed and lobbied by the NG boiler industry and gas companies go figures...
@@MrPikkoz hello, without LOTS OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN BY ELETROLOSIS ! There ARE H2 CARS IN ICELAND Because of all their CHEAP POWER 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
How are you planning on compressing the hydrogen in the pipe work, atm moment there is not a compressor that can do this
Yes there are challenges for sure but I’m more in favour of the hydrogen mix still going ahead, especially for the users who prefer to cook with a gas , you can’t do that with a heat pump. I think we will see 30% hydrogen mix with a 5% loss in transmission or 40% with biogas
Well you will know from the size of the crater who's been heating with hydrogen
Have to agree with you on these topics, I use a wood burner, I heat my water using evacuated tubes on my roof, and I have an air source heat pump heating the underfloor in the kitchen and large rads, my costs to run are minimal. The electric tariff needs to be reduced, that is the real problem with all this. love listening to you, James
They will soon price the polluting wood burners out of use. It starts soon with requirement to only use kiln dried wood fuel , the thin edge of the ( wooden) wedge .
Roger that was one of the best and informative interview I have heard in a long time
This presentation should be aired on national TV so people can make their own mind up on which way to go.
Brilliant video 👏🏼 change is not only needed but inevitable. Innovators will come out on top every time.
What a fantastic conversation. After having issues with two boilers at once, one in the UK and one in France it's focused my interest in all things boiler. Amazing information for a lay man to argue the case, pro and con for alternative fuels. Thanks again.
Fascinating video. Just one thought about the poor guy having to service my boiler stuck underneath the kick board in my kitchen!
There is no way I would be installing them ! Sometimes I get called to one in a low level cupboard, that costs the, double whatever it normally would.
A practical and informative video from people who have a wealth of experience, unlike the government and think tank apparatchiks we normally get foisted on us.
Having now self built two houses to the German Passivhaus standard then the first priority is to build all houses to this standard of insulation and air tightness. Even at -15C outside the space heating requirement is only around 2kW! Easily achieved by virtually any ASHP. Both my houses have an EPC or A/A+ with net zero carbon emissions.
Roger
You are right and I don't think anyone would argue with your premise, we acknowledged that from the outset but to put heat pumps into existing homes is a whole different game of chess.
Of course passive and similar construction houses can be successful, but for the majority that is out of the question. Most housing in the UK, even new build, is simply not sufficiently insulated, and could not be without vast expense. But simple steps like double glazing - if you can afford it, draught excluders, door curtains, and closing curtains at dusk can go a long way to save money. A ‘layered’ approach at windows works wonders. Double glazing + blinds, and then add heavy curtains. This will keep out a lot of the cold and make a house more cosy.
The best 45 minutes of CZcams I think I've ever watched. This needs to go viral, a better informed general public would give rise to much more fruitful conversations with our politicians.
I have been working on heat pumps for over 30 years must say I have seen many tears and a lot of remorse.
Heatpumps are only viable if you have an unlimited supply of low energy heat you can recover, not your average home.
Insulation is the way to go, build passive. Reducing your heat losses is the only way to reduce Carbon output and to save money in the long run. And for the little heat you need go for gas (type not specified) and forget all the "hobojobo" high tech nonsense. The more technology the higher the energy consumption, mankind has never used more energy than they have done today and tomorrow will be even more.
If they can't convince you, they'll try to confuse you, just use your common sense and wear an extra jumper in winter if you need.
Can I ask, are the problems with heat pumps limited to air source types or do they apply equally to ground source heat pumps?
@@petehiggins33 The main problem in using heat pumps is the big difference in energy cost here in Belgium. Natural gas is ruffly 1/8th of the price of electricity because of the many taxes put into our electricity bills. And with a realistic COP of 3-4 heat pumps are far more expensive to run, install and maintain than gas boilers. Heat pumps are slow in reacting and have limeade power output in comparison to gas boilers, they don't work on demand, so a short heat in de morning before you leave the house to go to work is out of the question. You have to almost heat your house all day long. I do understand we have to move away from fossil fuels but the story is far more complex than just switching over to electric heating. It is not that the concept of a heat pump is wrong the problem is where to get this huge supply of "constant" electricity from. Wind and solar are by no means a constant supply of electricity and we have no efficient means of storing electricity. So many people go for a heat pump without considering the whole story and often end up in tears. My personal experience between 1 year heating with gas and 1 year electric with heat pump makes for a surplus energy bill of about 175% (day, night and weekend price of electricity is different) and this is not counting the cost of the heat pump vs. the gas boiler. Spend your money on insulation and good ventilation with heat recovery. I do have to say there are also some succes story's where people are pretty happy with there heat pump but they would still have been a lot cheaper of with a gas boiler. But if you are so lucky money is no issues go for the heat pump, the Tesla and what have you....I'll keep driving my Skoda. Forgot to answer your question...air to air, water to water or air to water is not the main problem if it is design correctly. I have seen ground systems freeze solid (ground is a bad conductor of heat) as well as air systems..but at least they can be defrosted albeit for a short time....
Been had right off heat pump won’t cost you nowt government grant cheap to run my arse it’s costing a fortune the outfit who fitted it went bust changed their name you know the script don’t know who owns the twat thinking of scraping it ruined my kitchen and my back yard right mess £6 to £8 a day to run don’t go anywhere near it all tree huggers to go on about it
Before we are all thrown under the bus by whichever government forces us away from gas I will be checking back with this channel to see what I should do. The energy and utility heating and plumbing industry has become the biggest con going. I wouldn't jump on any of these bandwagons till I absolutely have to. I'm fed up with being ripped off. At least this channel is honest. It must be nice to be good enough to not have to try and rob your customers. My experience is not good when it comes to tradesmen. Unfortunately DIY is not an option for this kind of work. Thank you for honesty and having some integrity.
I enjoyed that Rodger. As a heating service company in Edinburgh I found it really interesting. Keep up the good work.
Well done Martin and Roger this is one of the most level headed discussions on how we use power and green energy I have ever viewed. In the 1950s when I was a boy they stopped running Electric trolly buses and Trams in favour of the route master buses! As usual Government doesn’t have a clue. Unfortunately it’s the big money that Government listens to first and get it completely wrong. My MP thought that tidal generation would produce 24/7 electricity, in reality it’s about 8 hours a day when water flows fast enough.
Thank you, gentlemen. So helpful. Air source heat pumps certainly have drawbacks that are often overlooked and seem insurmountable for such as myself. Great conversation.
Martyn is very knowledgeable. Having had a number of years experience with heat pumps (the first being the Daikin Altherma), I have to agree it would only be suitable for well insulated properties. My concern with hydrogen is safety. While natural gas has a 5% - 15.6% flammability limit of gas to air, Hydrogen is 4% - 95%.
Hydrogen disperses very rapidly
Here's an example of a typical, not very well insulated, terrace house having a heat-pump and it working very well: czcams.com/video/m2-_x0XZUSM/video.html He's collected a lot of data which suggests that the 'heat pumps only work in very well-insulated buildings' mantra is overblown.
@@xxwookey
The person has spent a fortune on fitting equipment. Also he is obviously a very well trained engineer. Personally I cannot quite believe that someone with such knowledge would allow their home to go on being ‘leaky’ and therefore throwing away a lot of the advantage of doing this conversion in the first place, and on top wasting money. Something doesn’t add up!
@@petercollins7848 I guess you didn't watch the video - he explains in the first 1:20 that he had to do the heat pump switch first because of circumstances (knackered backboiler so spending a lot on direct electric heating for a cold house, and a baby on the way). He will do fabric upgrades later. Nothing odd about that. And the total cost was £4700 inc VAT (for heat pump, tank, radiators and plumbing). That's very reasonable.
Nothing wrong with being an engineer - it just means the setup is rigoroulsy planned and unusually well-documented, making it easy for others to copy.
@@xxwookey
The house must be naturally insulated in some way or this setup would overturn the laws of physics!
It's a shame this was only 45mins. So so informative!
WoW what a wealth of information. Ive done 35 years in the heat game and could not see what all the fuss was with air source. Many thoughts confirmed in this video.
Thanks guys.
Really good to hear the view on energy from a true perspective
I've been investigating heating for some time, this is the best explanation I've ever heard.
Great presentation Roger, good balanced view
If you care about the issue, watch this, a superb exposition of the pros and cons
What a brilliantly informative conversation. Fantastic. Thank you.
Great information, presented in a very straightforward and absorbing interview.
Many thanks to you both.
Very very interesting video. Thank you so much.
Roger is very practical and has the experience to see the future issues that a lot of academics don’t. Good descusion
Very interesting, however your guests mentioned the price of gas per kw, hydrogen is very expensive to produce and transport so not a fair comparison.
Unlike electricity if you what to produce and store your own you can.
I agree with older property staying with gas, but all new building should be installing solar PV and batteries to balance the demand on the grid
Well batteries and All that will eat so much space. Spend extra 10-20k on batteries is not cheap. And it’s all good when it’s brand new and doesn’t need any maintenance. And then whole system is way to complex, rather just having single hydrogen boiler.
@@tpax3p The space/area that a Hydrogen plant are going to take up is much larger that a 50 to 100 kWh battery and can be located on the side of any property.
Today's battery technology will last for over 20 years and once solid state batteries are a thing, homes and low energy industries will not need gas heating.
Heavy industries may site a hydrogen plant nearby.
@@liberatodelgreco4430 I dont know why you think I want Hydrogen plant in my house lol. Im only up for idea to pump Hydrogen in the pipes like a gas I have at the moment + Hydrogen boiler instead of gas. So would rather wait and support this idea, rather than spending 15-20k on solar panels and batteries. And then switch to Hydrogen when it ready anyway - because I personally prefer it more.
Great to hear Martin. He's been in the business for a very long time and is probably THE expert on boilers - even if not hydrogen production!
If the hydrogen is produced out of natural gas, we ‘re not talking renewable here.
It's carbon-neutral so long as the CO2 is sequestered (which is fairly easy in the UK as we have lots of old oilfields already piped up to stick it down)
As a fully qualified fridge and ac engineer it's nice to hear the truth about a reverse cycled fridge and the fact you are relying on atmospheric heat to defrost it. 3 to 1 coefficient yeah in the ideal world. I had the unfortunate task of replacing an early Worcester Bosch heat pump in there earlier attempts as it did not have inverter technology and the customers lights dipped on startup. I am at present logging heatpump energy consumption to do a you tube video. The truth will out. Love to meet a man after my own heart well done
Hi Geoff. Please keep in touch. We will throw a link to your video if you make it.
Great video! You didn’t talk about the cost of hydrogen as a fuel though... the physics of it points to it being more expensive than electricity per kWh. Very high fuel bills... but you never hear the hydrogen lobby mention that.
Really expensive and horrible for the environment. Often derived from natural gas in the first place through and energy intensive process. The image most people they have is of it being split from water, which is a very finite resource and yields poor quality hydrogen from a very energy intensive process. Nice advert for Bosch here though.
Hydrogen as a fuel is a horrible idea. It’s clean but making the stuff is not clean. It also leaks through plastics so best of luck with our PEX gas mains. Even worse it makes steel go brittle. Funnily enough the rest of our gas mains are steel pipes.
@@trialsted How does splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen give you poor quality hydrogen? It is pure hydrogen. Also sea water or waste water isn't very finite. Not saying that Natural Gas Reforming isn't bad or it doesn't take a lot of electricity to produce hydrogen through hydrolysis.
@@markdee3506 because there are lots of other gases, minerals, pollutants etc present during that process.
Use passive waste acoustic energy to acoustically split the water into it's components
Very tangible good advice from Martyn bridges certainly knows his products excellent.
Very informative video, I have an ASHP in my new build so much of what was discussed rings true. I've just installed a log stove boiler to work with the ASHP when it gets cold... interesting project
Log burners are illegal to use now ,co2 pollution.
Great program ! Two great men ! Very many thanks for the straight talking and calling a spade a spade . THANKS
Very interesting video, especially the GSHP experiment and your personal experience. Thanks.
I have been in construction all my life and following most new technology. Totally agree about the future of hydrogen and the part on heat pumps totally underlines my own experience of reports and yet it has been so hard fighting the hype when people ask for my advice. I just hope the government don't try to push this technology because in most cases it just doesn't work. A priceless video. Thank you.
costs a fortune to operate and maintain but an idiot is going to put the system in our old building - BIG mistake
I have a heat pump which has replaced my 20 year old gas boiler with 10mm micro bore and it works fantastic so you do not need 15 mm at all.
Yes, 10mm can get just over a kW down it at Delta 5. Sometimes the main runs have to be replaced which the 10mm drops down from. But rads being fed from 10mm can be fine. Not many rooms need a kW rad.
This surely cannot be your only source of heating?
Just paid a local ‘reputable’ heating company £5600 to replace a 25 year old halstead that suddenly gave up the ghost (leaking heat exchanger) They recommended an ideal c40 which I just went for being it was the week before Xmas etc. I later found out that £1950 of that total was for the boiler alone and which I’ve discovered I could have got on line retail for £1450. I’m angry about the mark up of that and other materials they supplied - £3600 in total. Wished I’d have seen this before now. Worcester would have got my custom. Having said that, if I had hindsight, so would another heating install company. Top info. Thank you.
Heat pumps: Great when connected to underfloor heating. New build, starting with a clean sheet. Typically the water temperature for under or in floor heating is around 37 deg's radiator system could be as high as 70 deg. Its more efficient to raise water to a low 37deg.
Somewhat correct. I have an old installation of radiators and got a heat pump installed december 2019.
I used 5500kWh of electricity to produce 13500kWh of heat into the heating system in one yearr. Thats fairly effective.
My radiator heatpump combination runs at 55 degees C only wich is absolutely enough.
I will convert to floorheating at some point but this does work fine at 66 deg. C
I learned more in this video about what is possible and not so, than any thing else I have read or seen on normal media. Thank you.
Hydrogen being odourless and highly explosive, and will have to have an odour added as happened with natural gas,
when we converted from coal gas.
There is talk of mixing it with natural gas. Nothing needed as it will burn with the hydrogen. Whilst not being truly green, it kicks the can down the road for a few more years, ticking the green box sort of.
@@phillmcaverty and there's the problem in a nutshell. Instead of actually trying to face this problem head on, the approach is producing a minimum viable product ie. do the least possible effort to tick the boxes but not actually solving the problem in it's entirety.
It is refreshing to listen to people you have the confidence know what they are talking about. Hydrogen I the way to go without question.
Interesting to hear the comments regarding oil heating - we’re not all rich Aga users. A great many villages ( mine included ) do not have access to mains gas so to have remotely useable central heating. Electrical systems ( I.e. any variation on storage heating ) are stupidly expensive, and we don’t all live in small palaces, my house is just a small 3-bed semi.
Agreed on this, rural off grid homes are often an overlooked area. My family changed an oil fired heating system for an airsource heat pump about ten years ago at a) a monstrous expense, and b) the sacrifice of a utility room. With the rising cost of oil it has just about worked out, however only by subsedising the electrical running costs with solar PV. It will be an interesting space to watch what happens with off grid homes etc to decarbonise them, as fitting a hydrogen storage tank instead of a gas tank or oil tank surely has some safety concerns, and a lot of the existing housing stock don't have adequate space to dedicate as a plant room for the boilers and hot water cylinders.
Straight talking understandable relevant and I would direct anyone interested in changing there current system to this video thank you and
well done .
The amount of leaks in that piping infrastructure is already amazingly huge
We had a lot of trouble stopping leakage on a small hydrogen pipe system god knows what will happen on a country wide scale .
Fantastic video. So informative. If you haven't done so already, you need to be presenting this to professional organisations like the NHBC, RICS and the RTPI because this is exactly the sort of practical information their members need.
This is a brilliant interview thank you soooo much.
Excellent interview. Totally enjoyed your wonderful technically informative friendly conversation. Thanks heaps to both of you.
Didn't realise Bricktop was so into heating appliances. Anyway, engaging conversation gents, thank you.
Thank you gentlemen for a most informative presentation. In my experience, heat pumps for direct replacement of a gas fired boiler is impractical. Heat is not the same thing as temperature; hence, double the radiation. Hydrogen fuel is interesting but ultimately just expensive masturbation.
That was really interesting, thank you. You've certainly put the heat pumps into perspective and my money (i.e. a pretend bet in my head) is now on hydrogen ready boilers.
A brilliant discussion with technically correct information. A pleasant change from the nonsense which comes out of the established media.
Very interesting video, brought back memories of pre-conversion days and the hours (£££ :-) ) I put in trying to rectify leaks and faults after the conversion teams had moved on. I was pleased to hear the issues that had to be tackled ( eg flame seed and flame sensing) to produce a hydrogen fuelled appliance but to me the elephant in the room that never seems to be mentioned is the low calorific value (CV) of hydrogen. One of the benefits of the conversion to natural gas was the virtual doubling of the capacity of the distribution networks and internal pipework due to the CV of natural gas being twice that of towns gas. Hydrogen has a CV of only around a third of that of natural gas meaning the energy capacity of the networks and internal pipework will be only a third after conversion to 100% hydrogen. Significant pressure increases to try an overcome this problem are out of the question, has any seen any proposals how this problem could be overcome??
Of course, hydrogen gas is more likely to be able to permeate the pipe network and escape. A bit like helium, but not quite as elusive.
@@ianleitch9960 We need magical thinking. There are no downsides to hydrogen.
Stupendous!!! very enlightening Roger!!!. Yees, Homeowners must do serious research rather than trusting the good old Government. "Interest Groups Elites" contributing $$$$ to Candidates Campaigns.....Leaders of Countries Campaigns in exchange for Grants and compulsory conversions of Heat-Cool Air sources of Energy. I looove yours channel. Keep up the good work and collaborate with other transparent, generous Contractors-engineers. Thank you Roger!
instead of using electricity to create the hydrogen , and having to deal with all the associated dangers and expense of changing boilers , wouldn't it make more sense to up our green electric generation and reduce the cost so we can afford to heat our homes with electricity ?
Yes it would, but why on earth would you use common sense when you could start an enormously complicated and costly disaster of a project instead.
It makes sense, but its good to explore the options.
Martyn is a very bright man.
I remember being trained by him in the 80s up at Worcester Bosch factory on the heatslave boilers.
Perhaps he should be the person running the government department for this.
We would not has stupid comments from government that don't help and can cause people to make bad decisions.
great interview.
Hydrogen is the future not heat pumps
Kind regards Martyn from Mike Hayes Abbeymead Heating
Great video as always, Roger/Martyn. I'd love to see a comparable interview with a leading ASHP manufacturer to see what their thoughts are on the opportunities/limitations/future of that technology. It would make for an interesting comparison.
We are trying to line that up. The guy we were thinking of using was such a boring bloke and just talked in jargon.
What a brilliant vlog, a real eye opener. Now all you have to do to follow this up, is to make the government watch this discussion and see what the real world is about.
Most of the world's hydrogen is refined from natural gas. All hydrogen production uses a lot energy.
Yes, But it bursns perfectly clean. so thats one part of the equations optimised. To fixed the creation part you use an electrolyser! takign water and separating into hydrogen and oxygen causes no emmissions.
@@sgtheadhole The amount of electricity needed to split water is greater then the energy derived from the hydrogen. Entropy is the Achilles heal to energy conservation.
@@AquaMarine1000 Sure, now use electricity to heat a space vs combustion heating. tell me what is more efficient?. Hydrogen will be the defacto combustion fuel in the future. for engines, heating etc.
@@sgtheadhole Correct but it won't be hydrogen. Opinions aside the laws of entropy are the laws of energy, the universe and everything in it. Hydrogen production is like the middleman, he takes his share, in this case it energy. When energy is converted to another form there are always losses, in the case of hydrogen production it's high. Now that's just production costs now consider the liquidification and distribution costs. The World can't afford to throw needless amounts of energy away for no net benefit.
Learned more from these two guys in 10 mins than from BS govt in 2 yrs.
I do like the idea of hydrogen but where is it all going to come from? Also the primary energy to produce hydrogen is huge as you are basically splitting a water atom. The UK electricity grid will be 100% renewables and netzero by 2050 so I completely understand why heat pumps are highlighted
Hey Max, how are you. It seems ages ago we were having a beer at the end of Future Build. When are you guys coming on the Award winning Betatalk podcast with Nathan Gambling? Congratulations on your role at HPA
I just can’t see how the UK will be 100% renewables by 2050. The demand for electricity now is a fraction of what will be needed by then. I just can’t see it myself.
We need homes that are insulated to Scandinavian standards - which would require heating on only a few nights per year! Retro-fitting our old housing stock will be the biggest problem.
0% vat on Insulation products wuld be a start if this governent was serious
Really interesting, thank you!
Still don't know what to replace my LPG boiler with though
... heat pump... H2 won’t be commercially viable for residential use for many many years. But our electricity is getting greener every day.
They are starting to produce bio lpg to replace normal lpg which is produced from oil however in time off grid will eventually be heat pump and solar
If you don't have natural gas an oil boiler is the best, oil costs about a quarter of LPG.
Was immediately impressed with Martyn Bridges for not having half a public library lining the wall behind him.
Not sure why a heat pump would provide heat so slowly but understand it would be slower than an oil or gas fired boiler.
I guess the maximum temperature hot water output to the house is 50 deg C while maintaining reasonable efficiency but the cooler the better so not more than 45 deg. C for good efficiency? (remembering that 48 deg. C is hand hot).