White Sea!!!! How can I get that black shirt!!! I haven’t bought because red and yellow just isn’t my color. By that black shirt I would definitely buy!!
This is what we do with Tape, Tubes, Analogue distortion now. All that old kit, and old records, SEWATED AND TOILED to get rid of saturation when designing and mixing stuff I mean i certainly wouldn't max it out to sound like those records, its probably more how they were produced with far miccing and live bands.
But also don’t let your equipment ruin your quality, learn what’s worth your money and what isn’t. Just like this, get saturators with oversampling instead of an expensive soundtoys one
To add to this, don’t expect people to take your work seriously if you aren’t using serious gear and making a serious sound. You’re either all in or you’re a perpetual amateur.
@@wafflestoast5228 Could not disagree with you more, respectfully. I can't subscribe to the idea that you NEED money in order to be taken seriously as someone who works in the world of art. Learned, crafted skill will always trump less skill and expensive gear. "Sweet Dreams Are Made of This" by Annie Lennox was recorded in a warehouse attic, direct to a Fostex 8 track. "Nebraska" by Bruce Springsteen was recorded direct to a 4 track in his basement. More modern stuff, maybe not your cup of tea, but "Umbrella" by Rhianna was recorded in with the cheapest interface, into garage band. Listen to any punk music from the 80s and early 90s, it wouldn't sound right recorded with top tier gear. I'll take the sound of the Ramones or the Sex Pistols over Blink 182 any day. Hell, the first Van Halen album was recorded using pretty much only SM57 copies. Sticking with that, Van Halen's most famous guitar was built from scrap parts, I think he managed to be taken seriously. Sylvia Masse, one of the most respected producers around uses garden hose taped to microphones to get delay tones. She made a microphone out of a telephone to make it sound bad on purpose, but she uses it artistically and it works great. If you want to be taken seriously in the world of music, be good at your craft, and create good music. You can have the nicest, most expensive studio in the world, if you can't use it, it's worthless. The performance, and the technique of the engineer will always be more important than the tools being used to record them.
@@wafflestoast5228 that's weird because I know of many people who have written and produced worldwide acclaimed work off a laptop alone. It's all in the ear and without that you could be the guy with all the gear and no idea. Plenty of those around too.
This is a very long winded way to say that non linear transfer functions with badly programmed algorithms produce aliasing. Klanghelm stuff won't do that. TDR stuff won't do that. You can write code that doesn't produce aliasing, but it's more CPU intensive. But quite frankly, if you're processing path is working at 96khz it will be hard to produce audible aliasing in all but the most extreme settings even with badly coded plugins, and I've done a bunch of testing. I've stopped worrying about this when I realized I could work at 48khz and render out in 96khz in Reaper quite easily, and when I admitted to myself that musical recordings hardly ever have as much high frequency content as a sine test tone at 10khz and -6 dbFS. I think where digital emulations of hardware is lacking is that they require more careful gain-staging to not sound weird sometimes, and you hardly ever know if a plugin sounds weird because of it, unless you try with a bunch of different levels and know the original (modelled) hardware quite well. But that's just a guess. I think plugins sound fine these days.
This comment is perfect! Especially the part about gainstaging in software. Theres alot of upsides to software and it is not inherently limited, although it certaintly can be.
Definitely agree about gain staging. I found that the harder you drive plugins more it loses quality and clarity. Also many analogue emulations have this 'analgoue' button which just adds noise usually either at 50 or 60hz. I have noticed that it messes with the transients so usually i turn it off.
@@HollerAtcherBoiyeah exactly,all three of the ssl eqs (ssle,sslg,sslg standalone eq) but waves eq is by far the best i've come across in terms of not messing with the sound too much. Best sound I got is with ssl g channel strip but with the buttons under 'eq to' and 'dyn to' all pressed and with analgoue emulation turned off. What this does is that it keeps the transients intact and brightens up the sound a lil bit in a really pleasing way. Make sure to barely even drive it for best sound. (around -30db on the strip meter will be best)
I agree with your logic hear, and some badly coded plugins do cause more aliasing. but ALL plugins that add harmonics are capable of introducing aliasing. Oversampling doesn't get rid of aliasing it just makes it so that the level of the harmonics reflected down into the audible range are so low level they aren't an issue. Klanghelm plugins DO create aliasing, whether it's audible or not is another issue.
As a student Sound Engineer, where DAC and harmonics are a big point of interest to me, this is a holy grail of sound engineering videos and it only proves my philosophy of mixing. I love emulation plugins, not because they emulate the hardware (I noticed very quickly when comparing an outboard 1176 unit to an emulation plugin, that they don't sound the same at all) but in the lazy developers endeavour to recreate harmonics produced by outboard gear, they have actually created tools that sound different and create a new sound. A lot of people claim to say that plugins lack character, i strongly disagree with this because in my plugin collection I have plugins that will only be used for specific source material because each one has a sonic character that works well with that particular material. So please fellow CZcamsrs and Sound Engineers, let's not boycott these companies who make these plugins, but instead, if you own the plugins find ways to MAKE THEM WORK for you. I idolise a few veteran sound engineers who use tons of vintage outboard gear and have developed their own sonic brand using their collection of gear. But for God's sake, I don't want to sound like Chris Lord-Alge (being a reason I purchase a CLA-76 plugin), I want to sound like me, and so I find a way to make what I have work and create a sound that I like and can help me stand out as an engineer.
You should record the aliasing artifacts, filter out the fundamental, and then boost the artifacts to hear what they sound like... especially with sweeping the tone slightly. That would be interesting. Thanks for this awesome video!
For all you newbies out there trying to process all of this .. simple rule .. trust your ears and your heart. Because at the end of the day, that is all that matters. Please Please Please don't get caught up in all this analog vs digital stuff because I have seen up and coming engineers allow it to get in the way of their creativity. They're defeated before they get started because they feel they dont have the right plugin or gear because of something they have read or watched on YT. Use what you have and create music you can feel. That is what matters most. I started with a 4track, then SSL now 100% in the box and have made a decent living at it. So make it sound the best you can with what you have. Develop your ears by listening to a lot of music on a good system. Invest in a good system so you KNOW what you are listening to. Invest in your ears ...... Great video BTW ..
Words so wisely spoken. So what, if a plugin doesn't sound exactly like its analog counterpart. It's all subjective anyway. I get some great results from my Waves Puigchild Fairchild 660/670 emulation. It might not sound exactly like the real thing but, then again, it didn't cost me $30,000.
If you replaced all hardware in a professional mix with plugins, you'd probably have difficulty telling the two apart blindly. It's all about leveling and not over EQ'ing or over compressing.
RomoDrummer this video was scientific proof of that. Don't act like never seen this. www.ryanschwabe.com/blog/96k Some people like just spreading motos everywhere, but science is more exact than putting motos on the fridge
RomoDrummer Not 100% true. Having a shitty interface can make mixing miserable. My duet2 broke a while back and I was forced to use my old steinberg ci1 for a while. It was a nightmare. Now that I have an apollo twin mk2 my mixes are back to being half decent. 😅
I have a friend who dreams of (but can't afford) an all analogue studio and despite running Logic pro X on a high end system others could only dream of, he starts projects from a position of pessimisic angst and demoralisation because in his mind it will never truly sound or be great. So, although this is amazingly informative and makes sense, I reckon it's possible to take all this a bit far!
so many musicians and audio people get so obsessed over the minutae that they miss the point completely. obsessing about capacitor types that are not even in the signal path when they should be concerned about their way too loud valve amp beaming a wall of pain at a few people in front while the rest of room cannot hear any guitar because the amp is too loud for the engineer to add into the less directional PA. obsessing about the year that their guitar was made rather than the dodgy acoustics of the room which a parametric would help with. missing the fact that their perception has shifted since last time due to a zillion things other than wether the badge on their headstock looks cool. wether analogue is better than digital or how superior they are because they have a valve amplifier. then there are the low fi enthusiasts who think crap analogue is better because it's analogue lol. The blues men made great music with whatever they had. I have a friend who is an amazing drummer but can't play anymore because he isnt Dennis Chambers and so gets frustratedwith his playing. I'm no punk but at least they got on with creating music regardless. Don't end up being like the 'photographers' that only ever photograph walls to see how sharp their lenses are.
You are not a big complainer! We need More CZcamsr's like you to test the Authenticity of products! We need more Skepticism and be able to know what products we are actually buying and what they truly truly do! We can't listen to the Phony Marketing!
Great video, thanks. The lack of oversampling on decapitor is why I switched to IK saturator X for most saturation applications. Of course Saturn is my favorite though.
Your explained anti aliasing filter, sample rate and nyquist really good. I learned it in a similar way in the school i took for my job, just much deeper explained in the school.
Perfect video, weird coincidence, I was running some tests like these yesterday with all my saturation Plugins. It's very strange how some really highly regarded Plugins introduce huge amounts of aliasing.
Aliasing is not only linked to analog emulations (saturation). It is an artifact of digital processing itself (Pro-C in its cleanest most aliases, stock compressors at quickest attack/release also do).
That is super interesting! I didn't fully realize the implications of digital saturation regarding aliasing. I did the test with Softube Saturation Knob, the 'pre'-section of Scheps Omni, Cubase stock plugins and they all clearly show the problem of bouncing harmonics, except Cubase Magneto II. None of the plugins I tested have an oversampling feature though. It probably explains the smeary brittleness that digital saturation often introduces that analog gear doesn't. This might actually be the best reason so far for using high sampling rates. Come to think of it, perhaps DAWs should have an oversampling option per plugin, so that plugins don't necessarily have to do it internally.
I've seen many videos discussing this topic and a lot of them touch on the same points, but this explanation is bang on. Particularily the part about how when moving the root note up, some harmonics (aliasing) move down in frequency while others move up at the same time. That will definitely cause an unpleasant feeling that is indescribable, but definitely there.
This is a great video! I own many plugins and my projects are usually running at 44.1 Khz or 48 Khz, and this explains a lot of the "grain and sand" that I usually get, as you put it, even with expensive plugins.
Furthermore, after few hours of thinking on this and testing saturation plugins on my own I think I understood that this frequency aliasing issue has a lot more consequences. At least not only with analog emulation plugins. But I'm not sure. 1. Does this mean that frequency aliasing is not possible if you use ANY analog console (no mater what quality the console is) because the interface will cut above 24k at the input before A-D processing? Or is it possible that low quality/cheap consoles could have same aliasing issue? 2. Does this mean that any synth that is not analog actually produce the same frequency mess on the top end? Basically when you generate sawtooth wave you deal with same harmonics, that seems to cause the same mess, right? 3. Does it occur in case with FM synthesis? (When you add harmonics with independent oscillators)
I almost went on the rant on how the DACs and ADCs actually filter frequencies above Nyquist but I witheld and waited for the rest of the video for you to mention it. And you did so I am content.
Well explained and fun to watch! It's worth pointing out that only plugins that create controlled amounts of distortion are susceptible to generated harmonics being aliased back down into the audio band. You shouldn't be worried that your LA/2A emulation plugin is going to have this issue, for example, since it really shouldn't be generating harmonics in the first place.
Wytse, your passion is magnetic 🧲 I get stuck and completely drawn in to your most informative of videos. Thank you for making this video. Awesome 👏 😎👍
Nicely done sir, - explaining nyquist and aliasing can easily become really convoluted, - but not here, very well done. And yeah, Chris is a genius with regards to DSP and his plugins are about as analog as digital gets...
@MEGART - hi, I'm talking about Chris Johnson of *Airwindows* - All his plugins are free and he's supported purely by Patreon - White Sea has left a link in the description - good plugins to start with are: BusColors4, ToTape5, CStrip, ClipOnly, Pyewacket, VariMu, Pressure4
@MEGART - no problem, and yeah, all the *Klanghelm* stuff is superb! btw, don't be put off by the lack of a GUI with the *Airwindows* stuff, - his development approach is unique, but his code is sound... i've only been working with DAWs for 3yrs, but have 35yrs experience of working 100% analog, - and *Airwindows* really puts the magic back into the mix, IMHO. ~ take care and be well, E ~
Great video & info, Wytze! I also noticed some heavy cuts here & there (: hope it wasnt too stressful for u. One of the comments showed up another problem we are having here (maybe a follow up vid, too) - "Doesnt decap oversample when it renders?" - "That would mean that the rendered output is different then the DAW output... Not sure if that is what we want..." This is actually very true, especially with some 'older' plugs as realtime oversampling can be quite heavy on the cpu, so some might really render offline and oversampling then... Which we surely do not want & which myself has to ask Chris in his next Q&A some questions about, as this is also pretty complex; would also be interesting to know how he handles this with his own Plugs, which we all know - sound pretty amazing . for in da Box.
As a student with DSP in my curriculum it's very fun to hear your thoughts, and there are some things one could discuss further and argue for and against, though I think you've done a good job. Keep it up 😁👌
Great explanation. You should review the Kush Audio Novatron. It’s a compressor. Kush Audio seems to pride themselves on their oversampling. The creator is always talking about how much nasty aliasing can ruin saturation plugins in their podcast.
Great presentation - love the theory! I guess some people must like Decapitator for it's actual 'sound' though, even if it is technically 'horrible'? Sand in your coffee ;-)
Kush makes amazingggggg plugins. My fav plugin from them is UBK-1. Easily one the best/more versatile plugins I own for saturation, compression, and harmonic character.
it's called aliasing, and you can manage it oversampling and then applying the right anti-alising filter before downsampling. Cakewalk Bandlab can do this with plugin that doesn't oversample internally.
@@harpazohope the term used in Cakewalk is "upsampling". here you can find informations: www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.25.html
THANK YOU! I have heard weird ringing in Decapitator on single note sources since I got it and couldn't figure out why. You just showed me! Thank you for the explanation. This is one more reason to track in a higher sample rate. If plugin manufacturers won't solve the problem, we need to do so on the hardware level.
@@ToxylTV from friends that I have that work with people the money is not there like it use to be back in 2005. No more 5-50k type payouts for production and now everything is going into the box because of budget. That is why most studios are not using outboard gear because of the budget. At the end of the day, there are only so many that are making good money from music. I could be wrong but that is the feedback I received.
Most UAD plugins upsample to 192kHz internally and have since 2002. The old UAD plugins before they switched to SHARC chips would also up the audio bitrate to 64bit and then dither the output at 24bit. These are some reasons for the claims that UAD sounds more analog.
Totally true. How much of a difference it makes is subjective, and circumstantial, but it’s actually the case. UA isn’t the only plugin manufacturer to upsample, but they are known for doing it early in the DAW plugin game.
Another problem is that, when developing in the digital domain, you usually start off by implementing linear behavior (aka LTI-Systems), because that is easy and also a underlying assumption for some of the commonly used math stuff (e.g. convolution). However most analog cirquits do not fall into this category. This is not only true for saturation, but for most others things like filters and reverbs aswell. Again, there are ways to shift around those problems, but they involve additional work for both, the developer aswell as the computers of the customers.
For an example, Melda in commercial version allows you to dial in oversampling, and so does their Saturator. I checked this out and either we oversample or we run the session at least at 96k, and it sounds really a lot better. That's for cymbals, guitars (esp. distorted), and of course, vocals.
And then there Kazrog KClip which does x32 oversampling and possibly the best sounding softclipper in the VST realm. Would be interesting to see you do a review of it
What insane amount of distortion do you have to dial in to actually hear those artefacts? I just tried and it's a lot. So while it all may be not correct to pedantic people, most of the time you're absolutely fine using software saturation. The pros are overweighting the cons bigtime.
This is why I love watching your videos. I learn a lot of "WHY". It's a great perspective. Lot of this is over my head, but I can play around and see it my self. With all this, i have been learning my ears better on what I work on too. I would love to see down the road; how to address things like this on a budget.
Defenders of Decapitator will say "but the aliasing never stopped Decapitator from being used on multiple hit records / grammy award winning productions". That's probably because most of the engineers working with those records were only using Decapitator subtly, and most of the heavy lifting happened in the hardware / analog domain, with different pres, amps and whatnot.
Also this sort of audio distortion / aliasing would not stop an award winning production. People pay way too much attention to these sorts of little things, compared to their actual mixing, sound design and creativity. (note I'm not saying plugins shouldn't oversample, they should, but this is not a deal breaker)
I LOVE these videos, even tho this is a bit over my head (gotta watch it again). Keep making videos! LOVE IT! Suggestion (NOT demands) - What goes in your master chain - Dither (wtf is that ey?) - Klanghelm pluggins (snake oil)
I think calling these kind of tools "snake oil" is a bit of an exaggeration. How much does a an EL8 Distresser cost? like $1500. The Decapitator plugin costs around $200. I agree, it doesn't sound the same, but at the same time maybe you're using the wrong tool. I mean, there are multiple types of drills, or hammers. It's not fair to use them all the same way and judge them as if they were all supposed to be used the same way. Plug-Ins are tools that resemble other tools, but are not the same thing. It's no secret to any guitar player what the sound difference between analogue and digital distortion is, does that mean one is inherently, always the best? Certainly not. There is a reason that sooooo many top mixing engineers are working completely "in the box" these days, because they are adapting to the new tools that are available. These kind of videos, I think, are just really bad for the recording community as a whole. Most people who are recording, producing, engineering, mixing music these days do not have the budgets or funding behind them to buy all this analogue gear. These kind of videos just feed into the antiquated idea that you need the most expensive gear in order to create music, and that's just not true. If the plug-in doesn't sound good to you, don't use it. It might be precisely what someone else is looking for.
Technical understanding is very helpful to a mixing engineer who has ambitions, no? It helps to avoid mistakes, and to debug harsh sounding stuff (from lack of oversampling). What to do? Technology again. Time vs. money. You can take your time and print certain effects at 96k or higher, when your CPU can barely run this one effect alone. So yes, almost everything can be done on budget, but the speed of production is definitely a parameter in professionalism, and in financial throughput of the business.
@@neovxr Not arguing with that point one bit, you're absolutely right. But when you think of the number of people who are in the world of music production, only a small percentage of them can actually afford the original analogue products. Even professionals, in fact most professional engineers/producers I know, have the smallest collection of preamps at their disposal, and maybe a compressor or two. I do know the owners of a few big time studios here in Seattle as well, and their studio bought all their gear 30 or 40 years ago when they were reasonably priced. And some of the other I know have the luck to have been hired at major studios in town. And while I hate qualifier statements like this, I've been a professional musician over 20 years, worked in studios, worked music retail for over 13 years, and what I'm talking about is true for the people I've met/worked with in my career and my experiences. I think videos like this, while honest and true, are also holding out on the fundamental purpose of creating art. It's art. You can create art with any number of tools, and maybe the marketing on plug ins saying "sounds like the real thing" isn't always right and it's great that someone is pointing that out, but at the same time there is no alternative suggested, no attempt to find a usefulness for it. I've dealt with a lot of musicians over the years, and had to talk a lot of musicians "off the ledge" so to speak because a youtube video, or some other sort of review said something to the extent of "this piece of gear is trash and nothing is worth buying unless it's this piece of gear...that costs $5000" The average kid watching, or musician hoping to get into recording will see this video and just be overwhelmed, and discouraged. I'm not arguing the legitimacy of what is being presented, and you have you a very true point that in the world of music, your gear does (to a point) show how committed to the process you are. It's why I spent thousands on amps, guitars and pedals in my life, so that when I got to gigs, I'm taken seriously. But it wouldn't mean anything if I couldn't play.
@@patrickfouhy9102 I see, and can understand you better now. Still I'm afraid that too many artists shoot themselves in their leg on their own. Why believe anything on youtube, based on 5 videos watched? One needs to compare like 50 speakers, or do some serious traditional studies in an audio school. That guy did not say you should not create art. But I think it would be useful to listen to Warren Huart, who always tells that musicians should put their own visions and creativity first, and get along with what they have in the wisest way. Comes time, comes gear, no matter ITB or OTB. Basically, one should know what the budget goes into. For certain tasks, we can use either classical hardware, or good plugins, that can oversample. This one has been quite simple. A totally different universe is on the rise, about those spectral AI plugins, like that AdaptiVerb by Zynaptiq. It's a game changer, but also, might become a pest.. ^_^
Amazing video! Would a second plugin with oversampling fix this problem? So for instance first use digital distortion then a plugin with oversampling like the Fabfilter pro L 2 to filter the mud.
This is why I'm back at 96kHz sampling rate for projects. Yes, oversampling for plugs are a huge help. Please review IK T-Racks 5 and Overloud plugs (ie GEM Tapedesk tape sat plug) :)
The aliasing frequencies are mirrored against the Nyquist limit ... Every thing above will be mirrored backwards in frequency from that limit. it's mathematically 'do-able', maybe....but I prefer going outboard.
Oversampling alone does not help in most interesting processes. You also need to steeply filter between each non-linear stage of any processor (which is the same as sampling down back to 48kHz and oversampling back to, say, 192kHz for the next stage). But yeah, I suspect that some/few/many/dunno plug-in manufacturers don't do this to save some CPU.
@@edwardfanboy Let's say you have 3 simple effects A, B and C which you normally run at 48kHz. Each of which adds harmonic distortion. Let's say each has a switch that lets them run at 192kHz internally (4x oversampling). You now have two options: 1. Stay on 48kHz and switch each to run at 192kHz or 2. Don't oversample them but change the overall samplerate to 192kHz. Which exhibits less aliaising? The one where each effect is oversampled individually or the one where the whole chain runs at a higher sample rate? Answer: 1. exhibits less aliasing than 2. - That's because in 2. the effects of harmonic distortion accumulate from effect to effect. But if each effect gets bandlimited to 48 kHz, there is no accumulation. Hence, individual oversampling is better than oversampling the whole chain. Hence, in complex effects, brickwall filtering between stages can be an important factor. Naturally, oversampling can and will introduce phase issues and/or latency. But good compromises make these absolutely bearable.
Literally been sat thinking "damn distortion plugins really suck i'm going to have to buy some pedals" all day after selling my favourite distortion a month ago thinking plugins would have me covered. They really don''t cut it imo especially on bass.
Robert Hardy Keep in mind - in synth heavy, electronic music, where the sounds already have a lot of high end, all of the aliasing will get masked and hence oversampling distortion plugins won’t matter much. On the other hand, acoustic music, sparse rock, anything with real, recorded instruments.. oversampling is important because aliasing will be more audible and ruin a mix faster. You were talking about pedals so I assume you’re a guitar guy, so you are completely right to be worried about oversampling though
@@Samuel-ky2cq No i'm a synth guy but i sold my module and am just going to get a guitar pedal instead this time because its cheaper. I've just found that real analog disortion is so much nicer on basslines and all around really than distortion plugins. Especially diode distortion like MXR D+ and tube distortion that the plugins don't even get close to emulating some of the tube stuff i've had. Bass lines when i put distortion on just don't have the unique brightness where its still a bassline and tends to just ruin the sound instead of bringing out that bit of awesomeness. Thats my experience anyway. If you can recomend some distortion plugins other than decap i'll give them a look.
Thank you for demonstrating a visible difference between analog and digital saturation. There are too many that just claim analog is superior with out much explanation so for students its hard to understand why.
Product Development Meetings Before This Video: "Should we add an oversampling option?" Product Development Meetings After This Video: "We need the oversampling option completed ASAP."
You can avoid aliasing by running at a higher sample rate, plug ins that oversample can do this too, but then you have to rely on their internal src... People have come up with algos to remove the folded back aliasing too, many, no. Most of the BX/SPL/UA stuff is oversampling at default x4 on 44khz. I could explain the difference between discrete time and continuous time, that can be a difference in sound between analog vs digital, thought the higher the sample rate you more discrete time you get. Good video though, a tiny bit panic mongering as many of the best plug ins do oversample in a hidden way, its in the manuals..Dune 3's distortion doesn't though.
Really interesting and appreciated. I must say though, as someone who doesn't have access to nice analog studio gear, Decapitator is a really, really useful plugin that sounds better than any of my other saturation options. There may be a better way to frame your criticisms of saturation plugins in the future. For instance, you could evaluate them based upon their own merits while still pointing out that your console sounds better. ? Just a thought.
This particular effect is called foldback distortion, as the harmonics generated from distortion (or exciters, fast attack compression, etc) "fold back" into the existing lower frequencies that the current sampling rate is capable of.
Most top ITB mixing engineers still using old crap bomb factory plugins and sansamp that do not have oversampling at all. Does their mixes sounds terrible? No. In general, there’re no bad sounding plugins. It’s just plugins you don’t know how to use properly. That’s it.
100% agree. People have been pumping amazing ITB mixes out for nearly 20 years now. I'm shocked that people are still stuck on this analog vs. digital thing in 2019.
I think it's possible to do a great mix but still have aliasing issues. The aliasing issues don't make it a "bad mix" but they do may it an ear fatiguing (and possibly damaging) mix. Those with more sensitive ears may be able instantly to tell something feels horrible. I personally think there have been a lot of good mix's as well as digital remasters over the last 20 or so years that sadly are hard to listen to for anyone with highly sensitive ears. The point is that even for those who are not aware consciously, the listening experience would be way better without this problem. And it is totally avoidable.
Yes, but take into account that the big cats will afford a computer system that can run a session on a high sampling rate. Earlier, they had these insanely expensive rig processing boards.
One of the major reasons I started buying hardware compressors is that I didn’t want my computer to have to work so hard. A well made plugin often draws a ton of of cpu. Running hardware saves time when tracking. Get great sounds going in and fiddle around with a handful of plugins at the mixing stage. Plugin recall-ability is really great when mixing. It’s all about workflow.
In my head I was like: "just turn on oversampling?". Then I noticed decapitator does not have it. WHY?! Almost every distortion plugin has it Great video btw
@@QuadDamage666 That is exactly why, it's just old. New software has oversampling almost always, All Devices in Bitwig, including the grid are 4x oversampled afaik for example. So are U-he plugins, serum, IVGI2, etc etc.. Don't just follow vsts because people liked them, find your own, and use current gen software, or at least software that still gets regular updates.
I am an old guy... I am at 64 just now getting into the computer recording. I was told by others that I don't need to put any effects in front of the interface because I can add any effects I want after it's recorded. I call BS... I have not been able to find any plugins that sound even as good as my Alesis for Vocals and guitar pedals for distortion. They are either just noisy or un-tameable. Thank you so much for this video. I thought it was just me.
I started using mastering plugins over 20 years ago. Never had a problem. 99,9999% customers a.k.a. music record buyers don't hear a difference, nor do they care for aliasing or the absence thereof. What they do care though, is a great melody, groove, lyrics.
So! what do we do? without going analogue. I never get the desired results with distortion plugs. I've never been fussed about running at 96 or even 48, is this finally the reason we should be? Thank you for this.
U still don’t get it. This fire-backed ugly harmonic happens in 1/48000 sec, the plugin need to filter the ugly harmonic in 1/480000 sec and take the filter out after that sample is gone, thats why he keep saying plugin needs to oversampling (i.e works at higher than 48kHz , like 96kHz or higher) to detect ugly harmonic and perform anti-aliasing. A general high pass filter just doesn’t help in this scenario
Yeah there’s still no oversampling. the high cut filter in decapitator will cut highs off of the whole signal, instead of just the frequencies *above* nyquist like an antialiasing filter would. So the video is still on point
Hey WSS! This video really got me thinking twice before reaching for plugins I use on a daily basis, I tryed to switch to 48 khz and then grab Span (pushing it to read to 96khz) but its kind of confusing how to measure if plugins behave correctly after the nyquist freq, ¿it should not generate more crap frequencies if (for instance) the sine tone or audio track that im measuring is high in the freq spectrum? Im kinda lost but I would love to measure my software... maybe a little guidance? Greets from Argentina, been in love with your channel thus far (L)
Lol...all the Great mixers use it... y'all need to shut the fuck up!!!... Use what works for you.... y'all out here arguing about plug-ins while people are making millions with them
Not all plugins are created equal I think you should run this test using universal audio or slate digital. I have a bunch of warm audio analog gear which I used and I like the uad plugins and the sound of them better than the actual analog equipment
UAD is the closest to the real deal! Not perfect but the closest. As they are the only company work circuit by circuit not IRs. That’s why they are the most expensive plugins! But get hardware whenever you can afford. One hardware on your rack is better than a bunch of senseless plugins!
Very educational this time out. The audio above Nyquist is something I knew and forgot about! I will be testing plugins looking for these false audio artifacts. Thanks!
I replicated it in FL Studio with it´s own distortion and hell yes, it throws back a lot of crap when you go in higher frequencies. Therefore I always EQ after the distrotion. Now I know why. Thank you!
For further reading, I would recommend this blogpost by my friends from mix:analog!
blog.mixanalog.com/plugins-why-analog-still-sounds-better
I have been recording, mixing and mastering since I had the means to. That was late in the year 2007. Ain't nobody got time for aliasing artifacts!
*You made it ^^ !! Full support from France!!*
White Sea!!!! How can I get that black shirt!!! I haven’t bought because red and yellow just isn’t my color. By that black shirt I would definitely buy!!
The question arises - which set of plugins is closest to the real deal?
In 50 years from now "Don't use oversampling if you want that old "Sandy" mojo that glues the mix so nicely"
Mique Flesh nope in 59 years they’ll be saying “wait.... you mean without being immersed in other world”? “Why the hell would you choose real life?”
@@eyemallears2647 (i) said that when (i) read you're comment 2 weeks ago in other world. (i) wrote this before (i) went.
true
@@eyemallears2647 beep beep I am conscious code entity i do not require musical satisfaction god is facebook beep beep
This is what we do with Tape, Tubes, Analogue distortion now.
All that old kit, and old records, SEWATED AND TOILED to get rid of saturation when designing and mixing stuff
I mean i certainly wouldn't max it out to sound like those records, its probably more how they were produced with far miccing and live bands.
While all this may be true, please don't let a lack of equipment stop you from making music.
G O L D E N W O R D S !!!!! 👏🏻
But also don’t let your equipment ruin your quality, learn what’s worth your money and what isn’t. Just like this, get saturators with oversampling instead of an expensive soundtoys one
To add to this, don’t expect people to take your work seriously if you aren’t using serious gear and making a serious sound. You’re either all in or you’re a perpetual amateur.
@@wafflestoast5228 Could not disagree with you more, respectfully. I can't subscribe to the idea that you NEED money in order to be taken seriously as someone who works in the world of art. Learned, crafted skill will always trump less skill and expensive gear. "Sweet Dreams Are Made of This" by Annie Lennox was recorded in a warehouse attic, direct to a Fostex 8 track. "Nebraska" by Bruce Springsteen was recorded direct to a 4 track in his basement. More modern stuff, maybe not your cup of tea, but "Umbrella" by Rhianna was recorded in with the cheapest interface, into garage band. Listen to any punk music from the 80s and early 90s, it wouldn't sound right recorded with top tier gear. I'll take the sound of the Ramones or the Sex Pistols over Blink 182 any day. Hell, the first Van Halen album was recorded using pretty much only SM57 copies. Sticking with that, Van Halen's most famous guitar was built from scrap parts, I think he managed to be taken seriously.
Sylvia Masse, one of the most respected producers around uses garden hose taped to microphones to get delay tones. She made a microphone out of a telephone to make it sound bad on purpose, but she uses it artistically and it works great.
If you want to be taken seriously in the world of music, be good at your craft, and create good music. You can have the nicest, most expensive studio in the world, if you can't use it, it's worthless. The performance, and the technique of the engineer will always be more important than the tools being used to record them.
@@wafflestoast5228 that's weird because I know of many people who have written and produced worldwide acclaimed work off a laptop alone. It's all in the ear and without that you could be the guy with all the gear and no idea. Plenty of those around too.
This is a very long winded way to say that non linear transfer functions with badly programmed algorithms produce aliasing. Klanghelm stuff won't do that. TDR stuff won't do that. You can write code that doesn't produce aliasing, but it's more CPU intensive. But quite frankly, if you're processing path is working at 96khz it will be hard to produce audible aliasing in all but the most extreme settings even with badly coded plugins, and I've done a bunch of testing. I've stopped worrying about this when I realized I could work at 48khz and render out in 96khz in Reaper quite easily, and when I admitted to myself that musical recordings hardly ever have as much high frequency content as a sine test tone at 10khz and -6 dbFS.
I think where digital emulations of hardware is lacking is that they require more careful gain-staging to not sound weird sometimes, and you hardly ever know if a plugin sounds weird because of it, unless you try with a bunch of different levels and know the original (modelled) hardware quite well. But that's just a guess. I think plugins sound fine these days.
This comment is perfect! Especially the part about gainstaging in software. Theres alot of upsides to software and it is not inherently limited, although it certaintly can be.
Definitely agree about gain staging. I found that the harder you drive plugins more it loses quality and clarity. Also many analogue emulations have this 'analgoue' button which just adds noise usually either at 50 or 60hz. I have noticed that it messes with the transients so usually i turn it off.
Will Waves do it?
@@HollerAtcherBoiyeah exactly,all three of the ssl eqs (ssle,sslg,sslg standalone eq) but waves eq is by far the best i've come across in terms of not messing with the sound too much. Best sound I got is with ssl g channel strip but with the buttons under 'eq to' and 'dyn to' all pressed and with analgoue emulation turned off. What this does is that it keeps the transients intact and brightens up the sound a lil bit in a really pleasing way. Make sure to barely even drive it for best sound. (around -30db on the strip meter will be best)
I agree with your logic hear, and some badly coded plugins do cause more aliasing.
but ALL plugins that add harmonics are capable of introducing aliasing. Oversampling doesn't get rid of aliasing it just makes it so that the level of the harmonics reflected down into the audible range are so low level they aren't an issue. Klanghelm plugins DO create aliasing, whether it's audible or not is another issue.
As a student Sound Engineer, where DAC and harmonics are a big point of interest to me, this is a holy grail of sound engineering videos and it only proves my philosophy of mixing. I love emulation plugins, not because they emulate the hardware (I noticed very quickly when comparing an outboard 1176 unit to an emulation plugin, that they don't sound the same at all) but in the lazy developers endeavour to recreate harmonics produced by outboard gear, they have actually created tools that sound different and create a new sound. A lot of people claim to say that plugins lack character, i strongly disagree with this because in my plugin collection I have plugins that will only be used for specific source material because each one has a sonic character that works well with that particular material. So please fellow CZcamsrs and Sound Engineers, let's not boycott these companies who make these plugins, but instead, if you own the plugins find ways to MAKE THEM WORK for you. I idolise a few veteran sound engineers who use tons of vintage outboard gear and have developed their own sonic brand using their collection of gear. But for God's sake, I don't want to sound like Chris Lord-Alge (being a reason I purchase a CLA-76 plugin), I want to sound like me, and so I find a way to make what I have work and create a sound that I like and can help me stand out as an engineer.
You should record the aliasing artifacts, filter out the fundamental, and then boost the artifacts to hear what they sound like... especially with sweeping the tone slightly. That would be interesting. Thanks for this awesome video!
thats exactly how I came up with this soundcloud.com/sific-void/last-action-hero-master/s-OQT06#t=1:16
@@chrisaschenbrenner339 terrible sound!!
For all you newbies out there trying to process all of this .. simple rule .. trust your ears and your heart. Because at the end of the day, that is all that matters. Please Please Please don't get caught up in all this analog vs digital stuff because I have seen up and coming engineers allow it to get in the way of their creativity. They're defeated before they get started because they feel they dont have the right plugin or gear because of something they have read or watched on YT. Use what you have and create music you can feel. That is what matters most. I started with a 4track, then SSL now 100% in the box and have made a decent living at it. So make it sound the best you can with what you have. Develop your ears by listening to a lot of music on a good system. Invest in a good system so you KNOW what you are listening to. Invest in your ears ...... Great video BTW ..
Words so wisely spoken. So what, if a plugin doesn't sound exactly like its analog counterpart. It's all subjective anyway. I get some great results from my Waves Puigchild Fairchild 660/670 emulation. It might not sound exactly like the real thing but, then again, it didn't cost me $30,000.
Ignorance is not bliss.
If you replaced all hardware in a professional mix with plugins, you'd probably have difficulty telling the two apart blindly. It's all about leveling and not over EQ'ing or over compressing.
cyorkgo thanks
Dance God exactly as you say dear Dance God! 90% of a mix - in terms of importance - is levels and their movemen through time
Something to keep in mind, if your mixes arent good, switching to 196k isnt going to fix that.
But makes it better for sure
RomoDrummer this video was scientific proof of that. Don't act like never seen this. www.ryanschwabe.com/blog/96k
Some people like just spreading motos everywhere, but science is more exact than putting motos on the fridge
@@nivo6379 I never seen that article. Thanks very informative.
it does give you better source files right? so if a song needs to be re mastered and mixed later by a pro they might have more to work with?
RomoDrummer Not 100% true. Having a shitty interface can make mixing miserable. My duet2 broke a while back and I was forced to use my old steinberg ci1 for a while. It was a nightmare. Now that I have an apollo twin mk2 my mixes are back to being half decent. 😅
I have a friend who dreams of (but can't afford) an all analogue studio and despite running Logic pro X on a high end system others could only dream of, he starts projects from a position of pessimisic angst and demoralisation because in his mind it will never truly sound or be great. So, although this is amazingly informative and makes sense, I reckon it's possible to take all this a bit far!
so many musicians and audio people get so obsessed over the minutae that they miss the point completely. obsessing about capacitor types that are not even in the signal path when they should be concerned about their way too loud valve amp beaming a wall of pain at a few people in front while the rest of room cannot hear any guitar because the amp is too loud for the engineer to add into the less directional PA. obsessing about the year that their guitar was made rather than the dodgy acoustics of the room which a parametric would help with. missing the fact that their perception has shifted since last time due to a zillion things other than wether the badge on their headstock looks cool. wether analogue is better than digital or how superior they are because they have a valve amplifier. then there are the low fi enthusiasts who think crap analogue is better because it's analogue lol. The blues men made great music with whatever they had. I have a friend who is an amazing drummer but can't play anymore because he isnt Dennis Chambers and so gets frustratedwith his playing. I'm no punk but at least they got on with creating music regardless. Don't end up being like the 'photographers' that only ever photograph walls to see how sharp their lenses are.
This may be the best video on this topic currently on CZcams. I was subscribed before, but I hit that little bell just now. Amazing job, keep it up!
You are not a big complainer! We need More CZcamsr's like you to test the Authenticity of products! We need more Skepticism and be able to know what products we are actually buying and what they truly truly do! We can't listen to the Phony Marketing!
Thanks so much for filling us in on this subject. This was much needed as I was using Decapitator quite often.
Great video, thanks. The lack of oversampling on decapitor is why I switched to IK saturator X for most saturation applications. Of course Saturn is my favorite though.
Your explained anti aliasing filter, sample rate and nyquist really good. I learned it in a similar way in the school i took for my job, just much deeper explained in the school.
Perfect video, weird coincidence, I was running some tests like these yesterday with all my saturation Plugins. It's very strange how some really highly regarded Plugins introduce huge amounts of aliasing.
Which ones dom?
best demonstration of aliasing and proof of frequency clashing when pitch varies. mentioning vibrato was the key and i instantly understood
Aliasing is not only linked to analog emulations (saturation). It is an artifact of digital processing itself (Pro-C in its cleanest most aliases, stock compressors at quickest attack/release also do).
Do you think you could make an honest review on the new plugin “Bassroom” by Mastering the Mix? 🙏🏻
That is super interesting! I didn't fully realize the implications of digital saturation regarding aliasing. I did the test with Softube Saturation Knob, the 'pre'-section of Scheps Omni, Cubase stock plugins and they all clearly show the problem of bouncing harmonics, except Cubase Magneto II. None of the plugins I tested have an oversampling feature though.
It probably explains the smeary brittleness that digital saturation often introduces that analog gear doesn't. This might actually be the best reason so far for using high sampling rates.
Come to think of it, perhaps DAWs should have an oversampling option per plugin, so that plugins don't necessarily have to do it internally.
I've seen many videos discussing this topic and a lot of them touch on the same points, but this explanation is bang on. Particularily the part about how when moving the root note up, some harmonics (aliasing) move down in frequency while others move up at the same time. That will definitely cause an unpleasant feeling that is indescribable, but definitely there.
This is a great video! I own many plugins and my projects are usually running at 44.1 Khz or 48 Khz, and this explains a lot of the "grain and sand" that I usually get, as you put it, even with expensive plugins.
At this point you had undoubtedly conquered my subscription. Looking forward for more snake oil videos. Thank's!
Furthermore, after few hours of thinking on this and testing saturation plugins on my own I think I understood that this frequency aliasing issue has a lot more consequences. At least not only with analog emulation plugins. But I'm not sure.
1. Does this mean that frequency aliasing is not possible if you use ANY analog console (no mater what quality the console is) because the interface will cut above 24k at the input before A-D processing? Or is it possible that low quality/cheap consoles could have same aliasing issue?
2. Does this mean that any synth that is not analog actually produce the same frequency mess on the top end? Basically when you generate sawtooth wave you deal with same harmonics, that seems to cause the same mess, right?
3. Does it occur in case with FM synthesis? (When you add harmonics with independent oscillators)
I almost went on the rant on how the DACs and ADCs actually filter frequencies above Nyquist but I witheld and waited for the rest of the video for you to mention it. And you did so I am content.
Well explained and fun to watch! It's worth pointing out that only plugins that create controlled amounts of distortion are susceptible to generated harmonics being aliased back down into the audio band. You shouldn't be worried that your LA/2A emulation plugin is going to have this issue, for example, since it really shouldn't be generating harmonics in the first place.
Wytse, your passion is magnetic 🧲 I get stuck and completely drawn in to your most informative of videos. Thank you for making this video. Awesome 👏 😎👍
Finally an analysis based on actual scientific concepts. Very enlightening! Thank you for this perspective!
Nicely done sir, - explaining nyquist and aliasing can easily become really convoluted, - but not here, very well done.
And yeah, Chris is a genius with regards to DSP and his plugins are about as analog as digital gets...
Who is this Chris you talk about, what plug in studio?
@MEGART - hi, I'm talking about Chris Johnson of *Airwindows*
- All his plugins are free and he's supported purely by Patreon
- White Sea has left a link in the description
- good plugins to start with are:
BusColors4, ToTape5, CStrip, ClipOnly, Pyewacket, VariMu, Pressure4
@@iantanner7579 thanks Ian i'll check them out, i'm a fan of Klangheim at least thats what i think they are called, SDDR being the saturation plug
@MEGART - no problem, and yeah, all the *Klanghelm* stuff is superb!
btw, don't be put off by the lack of a GUI with the *Airwindows* stuff, - his development approach is unique, but his code is sound...
i've only been working with DAWs for 3yrs, but have 35yrs experience of working 100% analog, - and *Airwindows* really puts the magic back into the mix, IMHO.
~ take care and be well, E ~
Great video & info, Wytze! I also noticed some heavy cuts here & there (: hope it wasnt too stressful for u. One of the comments showed up another problem we are having here (maybe a follow up vid, too) - "Doesnt decap oversample when it renders?" - "That would mean that the rendered output is different then the DAW output... Not sure if that is what we want..." This is actually very true, especially with some 'older' plugs as realtime oversampling can be quite heavy on the cpu, so some might really render offline and oversampling then... Which we surely do not want & which myself has to ask Chris in his next Q&A some questions about, as this is also pretty complex; would also be interesting to know how he handles this with his own Plugs, which we all know - sound pretty amazing . for in da Box.
As a student with DSP in my curriculum it's very fun to hear your thoughts, and there are some things one could discuss further and argue for and against, though I think you've done a good job. Keep it up 😁👌
Great explanation. You should review the Kush Audio Novatron. It’s a compressor. Kush Audio seems to pride themselves on their oversampling. The creator is always talking about how much nasty aliasing can ruin saturation plugins in their podcast.
Great presentation - love the theory! I guess some people must like Decapitator for it's actual 'sound' though, even if it is technically 'horrible'? Sand in your coffee ;-)
This would be a cool test to use in future Snake Oil videos concerning these types of plug-ins. Awesome stuff!
Great explanation, I always had only a very vague idea that oversampling was good, but I didn't know why or how. This helped a lot!
Kush Audio's saturation plugins do have over sampling... give it a shot buddy. Thanks for another great video.
Cheers :)
Kush makes amazingggggg plugins. My fav plugin from them is UBK-1. Easily one the best/more versatile plugins I own for saturation, compression, and harmonic character.
it's called aliasing, and you can manage it oversampling and then applying the right anti-alising filter before downsampling. Cakewalk Bandlab can do this with plugin that doesn't oversample internally.
I'm wondering how you do this in Cakewalk, or what the correct search terms are to find that information. Thanks for pointing this out. :)
@@harpazohope the term used in Cakewalk is "upsampling".
here you can find informations:
www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.25.html
@@YellowsheepStudio Thank you. ☺️
does it behave in the same way on 44.1 khz ? great video !
THANK YOU! I have heard weird ringing in Decapitator on single note sources since I got it and couldn't figure out why. You just showed me! Thank you for the explanation. This is one more reason to track in a higher sample rate. If plugin manufacturers won't solve the problem, we need to do so on the hardware level.
Sometimes I found oversampling sounds less good than without... more punchy in some cases (Voxengo Elephant Limiter for example)
Funny, I just discovered airwindows a few days ago. You're an all knowing god, my long-haired friend!
I know professional mix engineers with grammy awards under their belt and half of them mix inside the box using UAudio plug-ins and waves.
Polariz3 that is because budgets are being reduced. I have analog gear and it sounds amazing versus plugins.
My Audio Marketplace I don’t think is a budget problem tbh... he is the mix engineer for Cardi B, Pharrel and shit ton more...
@@ToxylTV from friends that I have that work with people the money is not there like it use to be back in 2005. No more 5-50k type payouts for production and now everything is going into the box because of budget. That is why most studios are not using outboard gear because of the budget. At the end of the day, there are only so many that are making good money from music. I could be wrong but that is the feedback I received.
Very insightful video!! I love all the stuff I'm learning on this channel, btw your almost at 50k! :D
Ignite amps have oversampling and their plugins are free. Could you make a video on their stuff?
Most UAD plugins upsample to 192kHz internally and have since 2002. The old UAD plugins before they switched to SHARC chips would also up the audio bitrate to 64bit and then dither the output at 24bit. These are some reasons for the claims that UAD sounds more analog.
Totally true. How much of a difference it makes is subjective, and circumstantial, but it’s actually the case. UA isn’t the only plugin manufacturer to upsample, but they are known for doing it early in the DAW plugin game.
@root Klanghelm is 4x when on.
Yeah. I wonder which UAD plugins upsample? Hmmm
But isn't his point Upsample then Alias Filter?
root ssl-e is trash. The G was decent
Another problem is that, when developing in the digital domain, you usually start off by implementing linear behavior (aka LTI-Systems), because that is easy and also a underlying assumption for some of the commonly used math stuff (e.g. convolution). However most analog cirquits do not fall into this category. This is not only true for saturation, but for most others things like filters and reverbs aswell. Again, there are ways to shift around those problems, but they involve additional work for both, the developer aswell as the computers of the customers.
For an example, Melda in commercial version allows you to dial in oversampling, and so does their Saturator.
I checked this out and either we oversample or we run the session at least at 96k, and it sounds really a lot better.
That's for cymbals, guitars (esp. distorted), and of course, vocals.
And then there Kazrog KClip which does x32 oversampling and possibly the best sounding softclipper in the VST realm. Would be interesting to see you do a review of it
Sir Audio StandardClip joined the chat with factor 256 oversampling
What insane amount of distortion do you have to dial in to actually hear those artefacts? I just tried and it's a lot. So while it all may be not correct to pedantic people, most of the time you're absolutely fine using software saturation. The pros are overweighting the cons bigtime.
theory serves to avoid certain mistakes, not to prevent putting a useful effect on sounds.
Great explanation! Helped me to understand aliasing a little better in plugins and also why oversampling is helpful.
This is why I love watching your videos. I learn a lot of "WHY". It's a great perspective. Lot of this is over my head, but I can play around and see it my self. With all this, i have been learning my ears better on what I work on too. I would love to see down the road; how to address things like this on a budget.
Defenders of Decapitator will say "but the aliasing never stopped Decapitator from being used on multiple hit records / grammy award winning productions".
That's probably because most of the engineers working with those records were only using Decapitator subtly, and most of the heavy lifting happened in the hardware / analog domain, with different pres, amps and whatnot.
Also this sort of audio distortion / aliasing would not stop an award winning production. People pay way too much attention to these sorts of little things, compared to their actual mixing, sound design and creativity. (note I'm not saying plugins shouldn't oversample, they should, but this is not a deal breaker)
Probably they also have computers powerful enough to handle big sessions at 192KHz
They were hit records because of the artists not the producer. Hate to break it too you. Lol
This is something that EVERYONE who work with plugins should know about!!!
you can use the high pass filter in the plugin to solve this? or this doesn't work because the filter ends at 20khz?
Great video! I did the test at home with other (distortion-type) plug-ins - same result.
Interesting, after 3/4 of the video I actually understood it. Well explained.
Snake oil plugin suggestion!: MagicDeathEye compressor by DDMF. It just came out, and there's a demo :)
Thank you for making this. Very interesting!
I LOVE these videos, even tho this is a bit over my head (gotta watch it again). Keep making videos! LOVE IT!
Suggestion (NOT demands)
- What goes in your master chain
- Dither (wtf is that ey?)
- Klanghelm pluggins (snake oil)
I think calling these kind of tools "snake oil" is a bit of an exaggeration. How much does a an EL8 Distresser cost? like $1500. The Decapitator plugin costs around $200. I agree, it doesn't sound the same, but at the same time maybe you're using the wrong tool. I mean, there are multiple types of drills, or hammers. It's not fair to use them all the same way and judge them as if they were all supposed to be used the same way. Plug-Ins are tools that resemble other tools, but are not the same thing. It's no secret to any guitar player what the sound difference between analogue and digital distortion is, does that mean one is inherently, always the best? Certainly not.
There is a reason that sooooo many top mixing engineers are working completely "in the box" these days, because they are adapting to the new tools that are available.
These kind of videos, I think, are just really bad for the recording community as a whole. Most people who are recording, producing, engineering, mixing music these days do not have the budgets or funding behind them to buy all this analogue gear. These kind of videos just feed into the antiquated idea that you need the most expensive gear in order to create music, and that's just not true. If the plug-in doesn't sound good to you, don't use it. It might be precisely what someone else is looking for.
Technical understanding is very helpful to a mixing engineer who has ambitions, no?
It helps to avoid mistakes, and to debug harsh sounding stuff (from lack of oversampling).
What to do? Technology again. Time vs. money. You can take your time and print certain effects at 96k or higher, when your CPU can barely run this one effect alone.
So yes, almost everything can be done on budget, but the speed of production is definitely a parameter in professionalism, and in financial throughput of the business.
@@neovxr Not arguing with that point one bit, you're absolutely right. But when you think of the number of people who are in the world of music production, only a small percentage of them can actually afford the original analogue products. Even professionals, in fact most professional engineers/producers I know, have the smallest collection of preamps at their disposal, and maybe a compressor or two. I do know the owners of a few big time studios here in Seattle as well, and their studio bought all their gear 30 or 40 years ago when they were reasonably priced. And some of the other I know have the luck to have been hired at major studios in town. And while I hate qualifier statements like this, I've been a professional musician over 20 years, worked in studios, worked music retail for over 13 years, and what I'm talking about is true for the people I've met/worked with in my career and my experiences.
I think videos like this, while honest and true, are also holding out on the fundamental purpose of creating art. It's art. You can create art with any number of tools, and maybe the marketing on plug ins saying "sounds like the real thing" isn't always right and it's great that someone is pointing that out, but at the same time there is no alternative suggested, no attempt to find a usefulness for it. I've dealt with a lot of musicians over the years, and had to talk a lot of musicians "off the ledge" so to speak because a youtube video, or some other sort of review said something to the extent of "this piece of gear is trash and nothing is worth buying unless it's this piece of gear...that costs $5000" The average kid watching, or musician hoping to get into recording will see this video and just be overwhelmed, and discouraged.
I'm not arguing the legitimacy of what is being presented, and you have you a very true point that in the world of music, your gear does (to a point) show how committed to the process you are. It's why I spent thousands on amps, guitars and pedals in my life, so that when I got to gigs, I'm taken seriously. But it wouldn't mean anything if I couldn't play.
@@patrickfouhy9102 I see, and can understand you better now.
Still I'm afraid that too many artists shoot themselves in their leg on their own. Why believe anything on youtube, based on 5 videos watched? One needs to compare like 50 speakers, or do some serious traditional studies in an audio school.
That guy did not say you should not create art. But I think it would be useful to listen to Warren Huart, who always tells that musicians should put their own visions and creativity first, and get along with what they have in the wisest way. Comes time, comes gear, no matter ITB or OTB.
Basically, one should know what the budget goes into. For certain tasks, we can use either classical hardware, or good plugins, that can oversample. This one has been quite simple.
A totally different universe is on the rise, about those spectral AI plugins, like that AdaptiVerb by Zynaptiq. It's a game changer, but also, might become a pest.. ^_^
@@neovxr For sure. I like Warren, he's great! Also, glad to be able to have an actual conversation with someone. Thanks for being cool. :)
Amazingly valuable, gonna be keeping an eye on these aspects while working. Thank you.
Amazing video! Would a second plugin with oversampling fix this problem? So for instance first use digital distortion then a plugin with oversampling like the Fabfilter pro L 2 to filter the mud.
This is why I'm back at 96kHz sampling rate for projects. Yes, oversampling for plugs are a huge help. Please review IK T-Racks 5 and Overloud plugs (ie GEM Tapedesk tape sat plug) :)
The aliasing frequencies are mirrored against the Nyquist limit ... Every thing above will be mirrored backwards in frequency from that limit. it's mathematically 'do-able', maybe....but I prefer going outboard.
It's totally doable. You can oversample and use a low pass FIR filter to get rid of the aliasing. The cost will be higher CPU and some latency.
Awesome episode! The explanation of oversampling was amazingly helpful. More content like this!
Well done as always Wytse!! Very informative. Thanks for this....
Oversampling alone does not help in most interesting processes. You also need to steeply filter between each non-linear stage of any processor (which is the same as sampling down back to 48kHz and oversampling back to, say, 192kHz for the next stage). But yeah, I suspect that some/few/many/dunno plug-in manufacturers don't do this to save some CPU.
There isn't internal brickwall filtering between the internal components of a piece of analog audio equipment, so why should an emulation add it?
@@edwardfanboy Let's say you have 3 simple effects A, B and C which you normally run at 48kHz. Each of which adds harmonic distortion. Let's say each has a switch that lets them run at 192kHz internally (4x oversampling). You now have two options: 1. Stay on 48kHz and switch each to run at 192kHz or 2. Don't oversample them but change the overall samplerate to 192kHz. Which exhibits less aliaising? The one where each effect is oversampled individually or the one where the whole chain runs at a higher sample rate?
Answer: 1. exhibits less aliasing than 2. - That's because in 2. the effects of harmonic distortion accumulate from effect to effect. But if each effect gets bandlimited to 48 kHz, there is no accumulation. Hence, individual oversampling is better than oversampling the whole chain. Hence, in complex effects, brickwall filtering between stages can be an important factor.
Naturally, oversampling can and will introduce phase issues and/or latency. But good compromises make these absolutely bearable.
Literally been sat thinking "damn distortion plugins really suck i'm going to have to buy some pedals" all day after selling my favourite distortion a month ago thinking plugins would have me covered. They really don''t cut it imo especially on bass.
Robert Hardy Keep in mind - in synth heavy, electronic music, where the sounds already have a lot of high end, all of the aliasing will get masked and hence oversampling distortion plugins won’t matter much.
On the other hand, acoustic music, sparse rock, anything with real, recorded instruments.. oversampling is important because aliasing will be more audible and ruin a mix faster.
You were talking about pedals so I assume you’re a guitar guy, so you are completely right to be worried about oversampling though
@@Samuel-ky2cq No i'm a synth guy but i sold my module and am just going to get a guitar pedal instead this time because its cheaper. I've just found that real analog disortion is so much nicer on basslines and all around really than distortion plugins. Especially diode distortion like MXR D+ and tube distortion that the plugins don't even get close to emulating some of the tube stuff i've had. Bass lines when i put distortion on just don't have the unique brightness where its still a bassline and tends to just ruin the sound instead of bringing out that bit of awesomeness. Thats my experience anyway. If you can recomend some distortion plugins other than decap i'll give them a look.
I have been surprised more than once when running digital stuff through a spectrum analyser. Try it with an FM synthesizer!
Thank you for demonstrating a visible difference between analog and digital saturation. There are too many that just claim analog is superior with out much explanation so for students its hard to understand why.
I would really like to see Klanghelms SSDR in a snakeoil Video.
Btw really love your channel. Keep on with it.
Product Development Meetings Before This Video: "Should we add an oversampling option?"
Product Development Meetings After This Video: "We need the oversampling option completed ASAP."
You can avoid aliasing by running at a higher sample rate, plug ins that oversample can do this too, but then you have to rely on their internal src... People have come up with algos to remove the folded back aliasing too, many, no. Most of the BX/SPL/UA stuff is oversampling at default x4 on 44khz.
I could explain the difference between discrete time and continuous time, that can be a difference in sound between analog vs digital, thought the higher the sample rate you more discrete time you get.
Good video though, a tiny bit panic mongering as many of the best plug ins do oversample in a hidden way, its in the manuals..Dune 3's distortion doesn't though.
Amazing video, really clarifies this to people, I enjoyed it a lot! Keep it up with this stuff please!!
what spectrum analyzer are you using?
Looks like the one that comes with Reaper.
@@octopusonfire100 it's not as far as i know
Really interesting and appreciated. I must say though, as someone who doesn't have access to nice analog studio gear, Decapitator is a really, really useful plugin that sounds better than any of my other saturation options. There may be a better way to frame your criticisms of saturation plugins in the future. For instance, you could evaluate them based upon their own merits while still pointing out that your console sounds better. ? Just a thought.
Decapitator is really old now and was never that good imho. Even the default ableton saturator sounds better nowadays.
Decapitator sounds dated.
Awesome explanation! Thanks. Any suggestions for a good saturation plugin that you like to use?
This particular effect is called foldback distortion, as the harmonics generated from distortion (or exciters, fast attack compression, etc) "fold back" into the existing lower frequencies that the current sampling rate is capable of.
Most top ITB mixing engineers still using old crap bomb factory plugins and sansamp that do not have oversampling at all. Does their mixes sounds terrible? No.
In general, there’re no bad sounding plugins. It’s just plugins you don’t know how to use properly. That’s it.
100% agree. People have been pumping amazing ITB mixes out for nearly 20 years now. I'm shocked that people are still stuck on this analog vs. digital thing in 2019.
I think it's possible to do a great mix but still have aliasing issues. The aliasing issues don't make it a "bad mix" but they do may it an ear fatiguing (and possibly damaging) mix. Those with more sensitive ears may be able instantly to tell something feels horrible. I personally think there have been a lot of good mix's as well as digital remasters over the last 20 or so years that sadly are hard to listen to for anyone with highly sensitive ears. The point is that even for those who are not aware consciously, the listening experience would be way better without this problem. And it is totally avoidable.
PS if you mix at high sample rates then over sampling becomes redundant as I understand it.
Yes, but take into account that the big cats will afford a computer system that can run a session on a high sampling rate. Earlier, they had these insanely expensive rig processing boards.
This is probably (in my opinion) one of your best videos, probably the best. Thank you for the video, good stuff!
i 2nd. 3rd and 4th that... here, here and here. due snake oil diligence.. nice! ima try it on kazrog true iron too
One of the major reasons I started buying hardware compressors is that I didn’t want my computer to have to work so hard. A well made plugin often draws a ton of of cpu. Running hardware saves time when tracking. Get great sounds going in and fiddle around with a handful of plugins at the mixing stage. Plugin recall-ability is really great when mixing. It’s all about workflow.
Again much more informative than your typical snake oil videos. Great job!
In my head I was like: "just turn on oversampling?". Then I noticed decapitator does not have it. WHY?! Almost every distortion plugin has it
Great video btw
I was thinking the same, just why???
@@QuadDamage666 That is exactly why, it's just old. New software has oversampling almost always, All Devices in Bitwig, including the grid are 4x oversampled afaik for example. So are U-he plugins, serum, IVGI2, etc etc.. Don't just follow vsts because people liked them, find your own, and use current gen software, or at least software that still gets regular updates.
Overload ’
Lars Meesters try ivgi2, it’s oversampled, free, simple, and sounds great
@@peterbrandt7911 why add oversampling when everybody loves the sound? Aliasing is clearly part of it
Good video. I dig the plugin. If I like it then I use it. That is my method. My rate is at 44.1. 😮🤣🤣🤣
Does your music end on CDs? I'd go for 48 instead.
I am an old guy... I am at 64 just now getting into the computer recording. I was told by others that I don't need to put any effects in front of the interface because I can add any effects I want after it's recorded. I call BS... I have not been able to find any plugins that sound even as good as my Alesis for Vocals and guitar pedals for distortion. They are either just noisy or un-tameable. Thank you so much for this video. I thought it was just me.
I'm really glad u made this video... Now I have better understanding of when to use oversampling
You should make a saturation plugin.
Good idea!
With Chris Johnson!
Now that is funny.
I started using mastering plugins over 20 years ago. Never had a problem. 99,9999% customers a.k.a. music record buyers don't hear a difference, nor do they care for aliasing or the absence thereof. What they do care though, is a great melody, groove, lyrics.
Amen to that 🙏
Wow, great explanation.... now everything makes sense! Thank you so much Wytse :)
This technical explaination is so interesting! thank you! I'll try of course to test my self some plugins.
So! what do we do? without going analogue. I never get the desired results with distortion plugs. I've never been fussed about running at 96 or even 48, is this finally the reason we should be? Thank you for this.
Well, maybe one day you will notice a high cut filter in Decapitator :)
Brilliant! Has a steep switch even :D Best comment!
Exactly
U still don’t get it. This fire-backed ugly harmonic happens in 1/48000 sec, the plugin need to filter the ugly harmonic in 1/480000 sec and take the filter out after that sample is gone, thats why he keep saying plugin needs to oversampling (i.e works at higher than 48kHz , like 96kHz or higher) to detect ugly harmonic and perform anti-aliasing.
A general high pass filter just doesn’t help in this scenario
Yeah there’s still no oversampling. the high cut filter in decapitator will cut highs off of the whole signal, instead of just the frequencies *above* nyquist like an antialiasing filter would.
So the video is still on point
@@lastwarning1 exactly! Just like in the ADC. At that point it's math not music.
Thank you for your video. I learned a lot today :). I never understood oversampleling but now I do!
Hey WSS! This video really got me thinking twice before reaching for plugins I use on a daily basis, I tryed to switch to 48 khz and then grab Span (pushing it to read to 96khz) but its kind of confusing how to measure if plugins behave correctly after the nyquist freq, ¿it should not generate more crap frequencies if (for instance) the sine tone or audio track that im measuring is high in the freq spectrum? Im kinda lost but I would love to measure my software... maybe a little guidance?
Greets from Argentina, been in love with your channel thus far (L)
That brief explanation of how sample rates and sample reproduction relate........ 🤯 Next level, my dude! #nyquistfrequency
Snaekoil
Snaekoilpenis buyutucuu
Decapitator was always overrated as a plugin.
Christian Boragine NEVER liked it
Lol...all the Great mixers use it... y'all need to shut the fuck up!!!...
Use what works for you.... y'all out here arguing about plug-ins while people are making millions with them
@@ojvic7297 i guess you asked all the great mixers personally hhahaha
who are "all the great mixers" anyway
@@ChristianBoragine lol....😆quit acting a fool on social media bruh...,🤣 nobody's gonna know you with this attitude bruh
@@ojvic7297 said by the guy who just said "shut the fuck up" is a very profound moral lesson. Lmao.
Thank you for this! It completely makes sense now. Hopefully plug-in makers will take note, and fix the issue.
the depth of your understanding on these subjects is so fricken inspiring!!
I do understand it better then I can explain it... And that is super frustrating...
Not all plugins are created equal I think you should run this test using universal audio or slate digital. I have a bunch of warm audio analog gear which I used and I like the uad plugins and the sound of them better than the actual analog equipment
Also the artifacts are not audible when you use the plugins the way they are ment to be used.
UAD is the closest to the real deal!
Not perfect but the closest.
As they are the only company work circuit by circuit not IRs.
That’s why they are the most expensive plugins!
But get hardware whenever you can afford.
One hardware on your rack is better than a bunch of senseless plugins!
UAD is not the only company..
Very educational this time out. The audio above Nyquist is something I knew and forgot about! I will be testing plugins looking for these false audio artifacts. Thanks!
I replicated it in FL Studio with it´s own distortion and hell yes, it throws back a lot of crap when you go in higher frequencies. Therefore I always EQ after the distrotion. Now I know why. Thank you!