I'm an engineer, and I've always thought this, but I thought maybe it was just me, but now when he says it I makes my brain feel good. I have said the same thing: it needs to be rounded to be a "bearing" edge.
Right on! I’ve had so many drums where I’ve tuned the heads, and can press down on where the head and bearing edge should meet, and there’s a void. I can literally press down on it 😮
Remember that what anyone says about drums .. High pitch tone outside the bearing edge or drums that are wrapped in a finish changing the sound doesn’t mean that these things are bad they may very well add character to the instrument that you love
Very insightful. I never made the connection of the sound traveling from the skin and thru the wood. I always thought the sound bounced around within the drum and exited the port holes... Very cool!
Good way to show this off is take the toms or anything weighted off your kick drum play it and then play it while applying a little bit of force with your hand on the top of it and note the difference, it is a pretty stark contrast with your hand deadening the shell sound
The only sound we hear from a drum is from the heads vibrating. The shell material will mute certain frequencies of the head and that’s it. The vents job is to relieve pressure inside the shell. There’s no sound inside the shell only the pressure from striking the head.
@@Assimilator702 That only really applies to 'dead' shells, such as Acrylic or Remo's Acousticon shells - or wood shells whose edges aren't cut to accomodate the heads, as Jeff explained. Put a dead shell and a nicely edged Mahogany tom side by side and you'll hear a clear difference.
@@flocore So you’re saying the shell vibrates and emits a sound? Or are you saying different shells materials color the sound heads can make in a different manner?
How is it that I just saw this video. This feels like information that could get you into a lot of trouble with the big drum manufacturers. I’ve always preferred rounded over bearing edges and I now I know why!
I build drums as well i particularly like the double 45 with the apex dead center of the plies like a pencil tip. This edge gives me the most attack and since the apex of the edge sits away from the elbow and under the flat part of the head of the head much like an undersize premier drums shell I get a very resonate and clear tone. I like round overs for achieving a vintage tone but for fast aggressive music like punk or metal the double 45 is where it’s at. I borrowed this edge design from Spaun Custom Drums and have seen it often on SJC and Dark Horse drums. As a punk drummer the sharp double 45 is the best!
That sir is the best explanation of bearing edge I've ever heard, thank you. I've been wondering why modern drums don't sound much like the 70's and earlier drums. The newer drums have to many weird overtones and no internal mufflers to control sustain.
I highly recommend Jeff Kirsch. I had a set made by jeff when he was getting started(15 yrs ago?). They had a few issues, but I was mainly to blame being clueless as to drum construction (ie: having him put the wrong type of wrap on and asking for adhesive strips cuz of my cheapness). But what I really apreciated about him was his willingness to share all his knowledge about drums, essentially almost giving away his secrets for free! Thanks to jeff I know and understand drums inside and out. If he's making your drums & your in the Portland area, I suggest hanging out a few to watch your drums be made(with his OK of course), it make's it that much more rewarding! Kenny from Paranaut
Good explaination of problems with heads and edges, I wouldn't agree in "most influence" as this has the first membrane, the head itself. Take shell diameter into consideration, where to place an edge. My recommendation: "small" shell diameter x-1/8" to x-1/6" and only little counter edge. And yes, don't "sharpen" edges too much - you loose your shell as a membrane otherwise. The shell is the "body" of your sound. Bring it into vibration.
Man I’m contemplating building a drum kit. I know bearing edges are going to be the hardest part and almost want to send it off to a bearing edge specialist or a machine shop to do it.
Jeff this video is so informative. Thank you. I have a few vintage Kits with rounded edges so I am especially happy to hear this. I also have the Sonor Vintage Series with the round over edge. Would the rebound on rounded edges be just as responsive (bouncy) as with 45 degree? It seems like you said the rebound feels better so I assume the answer is rounded edges have better rebound. I don’t mean to restate something I should have gleaned from your detailed video. Would you have any suggestions on a head combo or tuning advice on how to maximize rebound? I am relearning to play traditional grip and being able to drop the sticks on toms and get the best rebound is key in terms of how I am being taught. Shared this video with many friends all who are very impressed. Best - Greg
Very informative video, very well explained! Question: Sonor and other companies make their drum diameters slightly smaller so the drumheads have a not too toght fit even with single cuts, is that about right..? I have an old Sonor Champion. Thin shells, round bearing edge. I want to have the bearing edge recut to a 45° angle. Would the 45° round over still be the best solution? wouldn't the edge be a tad too small in diameter to fit the drumhead nicely? I really would appreciate your help, because I love my old Sonor kit and don't want to make a mistake... thanks!
That was an amazing description of what happens with the head in conjunction with the bearing edge. My question would be.... What is the appropriate curve of the bearing edge to match the curve pressure treated into the head? Is an 1/8" or 1/4"round-over applicable to most heads, or is it something else. Does it vary depending on the manufacturer or head type you use. I'm an Evans G2 Clear fan for my toms (8,10,12) and an EC2 for the 16" floor because it needs a little more dampening as it tends to ring long, especially when it's dialed in perfectly.. Do I need to figure out what that particular head has for the curve? Thanks so much for the info!!
Can you pls answer. I have a vintage snare drum. With re ring. It has somewhat round over on batter. And well the reso side and bed are not correct. I want to know. I want a full roundover on batter. I know the whole thing with differences. Watched prob hundred videos. I understand the beating edge. My question is mainly the reso side and bed. I actually think because my snare has NOT a sharp edge on reso side. It seems compared to all my other snare drums I’d seems like a softer drier punchy warmer attack. So. Is it ok to put a fairly round over on reso side. And a brand new bed. I can’t see even a baseball edge will produce just as much Resonant and full sounding. Not thst sharp attack that is bright. I want opposite of that. Sorry for long text.
that was really smart! It's weird that high end drums don't see it this way. I think the bearing edges used to be rounded but they changed for some reason.
Totally the same! Many metal drums are rolled at the edge making a perfect round shape for tuning. This shape is why so many people consider Ludwig acrolites and superphonics easy to tune and versatile.
@@portlanddrums I have a set of Ludwig Stainless Steel and I suspect they sound so fantastic because of the rolled edges. I know the Dunnett reissue steel shells are a straight edge and I was wary about that fact. I never played a Dunnett steel kit but I am so happy with the old Luddys!
The origin of rerings is calf or animal hide heads. Because they can shrink with a ton of force in the right conditions, rings were added for support. Especially because before hardwood ply shells, the majority of drums were very soft bendy woods that were easy to make round. Rings were installed as a "just in case" and never really had a tonal reason to exist. With modern plastic heads, a drum will rarely see the tension required to need rings. All that said, adding mass of any kind will raise pitch whether its rings or additional plies. Picking a shell is much like picking a ride cymbal. Thinner is warm, breathy and sensitive to dynamics and thicker is brighter, projecting and more consistent sounding no matter your dynamic.
Sure....molded,heated,compressed plastic can't take another shape... When it's really thick.,sure. We're talking about paper thing plastic here. Of course it can bend and take new shape..... This is a mindless statement
Only one shape works to your liking with modern heads. But Ludwigs will not be Ludwigs and Tamas will not be Tamas. They will be modified Ludwigs and Tamas. As with anything vintage, few people who want a vintage drum kit want a modified vintage drum kit, and fewer and fewer vintage kits will be available as they undergo various forms of destruction like this. You are only the temporary owner and player of a drum kit. Please, DO NOT MODIFY VINTAGE DRUMS.
There's an astounding difference between modding an edge and restoring one. If you've got an instrument that goes long enough without repair and restoration, there's a good chance it's almost unplayable. Which has zero value to anyone except a museum. A guitar or violin will go in the shop for cleanings, tune-ups, fret dresses, neck adjustments and restorations where drums usually don't. This is why you can see 300 year old stringed instruments and very few drums that old. I would never recommend modifying a classic kit but I also wouldn't recommend letting them rot apart.
Also, much like a neck or fret adjustment on a guitar or violin, repairing these aspects actually have little to do with sound. These are about tuning ease, stability and flexibility. A Fender will still sound like a Fender, a Gibson like a Gibson, Ludwig like a Ludwig. A brands sound has far more to do with its structure and design than its set up.
this is an incredibly informative video... damn
I'm an engineer, and I've always thought this, but I thought maybe it was just me, but now when he says it I makes my brain feel good. I have said the same thing: it needs to be rounded to be a "bearing" edge.
Right on! I’ve had so many drums where I’ve tuned the heads, and can press down on where the head and bearing edge should meet, and there’s a void. I can literally press down on it 😮
Great stuff, also loved your long form interview on Drum History. Thanks for all the info.
Remember that what anyone says about drums .. High pitch tone outside the bearing edge or drums that are wrapped in a finish changing the sound doesn’t mean that these things are bad they may very well add character to the instrument that you love
Excellent information explained without going over my head. Thank you!
A fantastic explanation of this very important detail. Well done sir.
Wow man. Great video, you just bridged the gap of what I’ve been trying to explain when heads aren’t making enough contact. So good thank you.
Short, informative, no bullshit, no needless prolonging - perfect
Bruh...I just learned so much. Very clean explanation. Thank you🙌.
Thanks for the information! Anyway, pointing the board with a drumstick in a traditional grip is the most drummer thing ever 😂
Very insightful. I never made the connection of the sound traveling from the skin and thru the wood. I always thought the sound bounced around within the drum and exited the port holes... Very cool!
We really didn’t either. Jeff turned our drum edges and it was an enormous upgrade for our house kit.
Good way to show this off is take the toms or anything weighted off your kick drum play it and then play it while applying a little bit of force with your hand on the top of it and note the difference, it is a pretty stark contrast with your hand deadening the shell sound
The only sound we hear from a drum is from the heads vibrating. The shell material will mute certain frequencies of the head and that’s it. The vents job is to relieve pressure inside the shell. There’s no sound inside the shell only the pressure from striking the head.
@@Assimilator702 That only really applies to 'dead' shells, such as Acrylic or Remo's Acousticon shells - or wood shells whose edges aren't cut to accomodate the heads, as Jeff explained. Put a dead shell and a nicely edged Mahogany tom side by side and you'll hear a clear difference.
@@flocore So you’re saying the shell vibrates and emits a sound? Or are you saying different shells materials color the sound heads can make in a different manner?
How is it that I just saw this video. This feels like information that could get you into a lot of trouble with the big drum manufacturers. I’ve always preferred rounded over bearing edges and I now I know why!
Buying my 2nd kirsch kit here soon. Worth the investment!
This is gold
I build drums as well i particularly like the double 45 with the apex dead center of the plies like a pencil tip. This edge gives me the most attack and since the apex of the edge sits away from the elbow and under the flat part of the head of the head much like an undersize premier drums shell I get a very resonate and clear tone. I like round overs for achieving a vintage tone but for fast aggressive music like punk or metal the double 45 is where it’s at. I borrowed this edge design from Spaun Custom Drums and have seen it often on SJC and Dark Horse drums. As a punk drummer the sharp double 45 is the best!
That sir is the best explanation of bearing edge I've ever heard, thank you. I've been wondering why modern drums don't sound much like the 70's and earlier drums. The newer drums have to many weird overtones and no internal mufflers to control sustain.
I highly recommend Jeff Kirsch. I had a set made by jeff when he was getting started(15 yrs ago?). They had a few issues, but I was mainly to blame being clueless as to drum construction (ie: having him put the wrong type of wrap on and asking for adhesive strips cuz of my cheapness). But what I really apreciated about him was his willingness to share all his knowledge about drums, essentially almost giving away his secrets for free! Thanks to jeff I know and understand drums inside and out. If he's making your drums & your in the Portland area, I suggest hanging out a few to watch your drums be made(with his OK of course), it make's it that much more rewarding! Kenny from Paranaut
thank u jeff kirsch! for the great explanation ! im about to redo my drums and this what ive been looking for!
All this information would be perfect if it would come with a sound comparison, dont you think?
That is done here with a comparison of 4 different bearing edges. czcams.com/video/u5f94hBS2WA/video.htmlsi=V99brSlazqpfPxRh
Thank you!
Good explaination of problems with heads and edges, I wouldn't agree in "most influence" as this has the first membrane, the head itself. Take shell diameter into consideration, where to place an edge. My recommendation: "small" shell diameter x-1/8" to x-1/6" and only little counter edge. And yes, don't "sharpen" edges too much - you loose your shell as a membrane otherwise. The shell is the "body" of your sound. Bring it into vibration.
Man I’m contemplating building a drum kit. I know bearing edges are going to be the hardest part and almost want to send it off to a bearing edge specialist or a machine shop to do it.
Jeff this video is so informative. Thank you. I have a few vintage Kits with rounded edges so I am especially happy to hear this. I also have the Sonor Vintage Series with the round over edge. Would the rebound on rounded edges be just as responsive (bouncy) as with 45 degree? It seems like you said the rebound feels better so I assume the answer is rounded edges have better rebound. I don’t mean to restate something I should have gleaned from your detailed video. Would you have any suggestions on a head combo or tuning advice on how to maximize rebound? I am relearning to play traditional grip and being able to drop the sticks on toms and get the best rebound is key in terms of how I am being taught. Shared this video with many friends all who are very impressed.
Best - Greg
Very informative video, very well explained! Question: Sonor and other companies make their drum diameters slightly smaller so the drumheads have a not too toght fit even with single cuts, is that about right..? I have an old Sonor Champion. Thin shells, round bearing edge. I want to have the bearing edge recut to a 45° angle. Would the 45° round over still be the best solution? wouldn't the edge be a tad too small in diameter to fit the drumhead nicely? I really would appreciate your help, because I love my old Sonor kit and don't want to make a mistake... thanks!
🤘🏻👌👍
Great explaination . Makes more sense to me. Thanks
What happens to the sound of a drum that has a 45° round over bearing on 1 side and a 30° round over on the other?
That was an amazing description of what happens with the head in conjunction with the bearing edge. My question would be.... What is the appropriate curve of the bearing edge to match the curve pressure treated into the head? Is an 1/8" or 1/4"round-over applicable to most heads, or is it something else. Does it vary depending on the manufacturer or head type you use. I'm an Evans G2 Clear fan for my toms (8,10,12) and an EC2 for the 16" floor because it needs a little more dampening as it tends to ring long, especially when it's dialed in perfectly.. Do I need to figure out what that particular head has for the curve? Thanks so much for the info!!
👍
What type of edge you would put for marching drums with a hard attack and no overtones (singing)
Can you pls answer. I have a vintage snare drum. With re ring. It has somewhat round over on batter. And well the reso side and bed are not correct. I want to know. I want a full roundover on batter. I know the whole thing with differences. Watched prob hundred videos. I understand the beating edge. My question is mainly the reso side and bed. I actually think because my snare has NOT a sharp edge on reso side. It seems compared to all my other snare drums I’d seems like a softer drier punchy warmer attack. So. Is it ok to put a fairly round over on reso side. And a brand new bed. I can’t see even a baseball edge will produce just as much Resonant and full sounding. Not thst sharp attack that is bright. I want opposite of that. Sorry for long text.
good explanation
So which edge is it that works the best?
Jeffs
that was really smart! It's weird that high end drums don't see it this way. I think the bearing edges used to be rounded but they changed for some reason.
hi, loved the video, but i was wondering...does this principle with bearing edges work with metal snare drums too?thank you
Totally the same! Many metal drums are rolled at the edge making a perfect round shape for tuning. This shape is why so many people consider Ludwig acrolites and superphonics easy to tune and versatile.
@@portlanddrums I have a set of Ludwig Stainless Steel and I suspect they sound so fantastic because of the rolled edges. I know the Dunnett reissue steel shells are a straight edge and I was wary about that fact. I never played a Dunnett steel kit but I am so happy with the old Luddys!
What is your opinion on re-rings in function of raising the pitch and adding projection to the shell?
The origin of rerings is calf or animal hide heads. Because they can shrink with a ton of force in the right conditions, rings were added for support. Especially because before hardwood ply shells, the majority of drums were very soft bendy woods that were easy to make round. Rings were installed as a "just in case" and never really had a tonal reason to exist. With modern plastic heads, a drum will rarely see the tension required to need rings. All that said, adding mass of any kind will raise pitch whether its rings or additional plies. Picking a shell is much like picking a ride cymbal. Thinner is warm, breathy and sensitive to dynamics and thicker is brighter, projecting and more consistent sounding no matter your dynamic.
I'm sure you know Mel Brown...
Sure....molded,heated,compressed plastic can't take another shape...
When it's really thick.,sure.
We're talking about paper thing plastic here. Of course it can bend and take new shape.....
This is a mindless statement
Only one shape works to your liking with modern heads. But Ludwigs will not be Ludwigs and Tamas will not be Tamas. They will be modified Ludwigs and Tamas. As with anything vintage, few people who want a vintage drum kit want a modified vintage drum kit, and fewer and fewer vintage kits will be available as they undergo various forms of destruction like this. You are only the temporary owner and player of a drum kit. Please, DO NOT MODIFY VINTAGE DRUMS.
There's an astounding difference between modding an edge and restoring one. If you've got an instrument that goes long enough without repair and restoration, there's a good chance it's almost unplayable. Which has zero value to anyone except a museum. A guitar or violin will go in the shop for cleanings, tune-ups, fret dresses, neck adjustments and restorations where drums usually don't. This is why you can see 300 year old stringed instruments and very few drums that old. I would never recommend modifying a classic kit but I also wouldn't recommend letting them rot apart.
Also, much like a neck or fret adjustment on a guitar or violin, repairing these aspects actually have little to do with sound. These are about tuning ease, stability and flexibility. A Fender will still sound like a Fender, a Gibson like a Gibson, Ludwig like a Ludwig. A brands sound has far more to do with its structure and design than its set up.
why wouldn't we just all use vintage rounded heads then where the contact between the shell and head is as you describe in the video?