ROGERS Drum Resto | PART 3 - how to cut and true bearing edges.
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- In this four part series learn techniques, tricks, secretes and all the skills that you need to transform your old drums into new.
Part 3. Tony walks you though how to cut, true, finish and seal old or new bearing edges. His philosophy is to cut the minimal amount off an edge until the edge's flatness is 'true'. In this part, he explores what to do when a drum's bearing edge has low or high spots as well as wobbles around the edge of the drum and the correct way to navigate such issues.
Links:
1/2" 45 degree cutter - amzn.to/3awd7nE
1/4" 45 degree cutter - amzn.to/3vcqpxt
Penetrol - amzn.to/3djzpuF
FOLLOW US:
Instagram: / killerdrums...
Facebook: / - Jak na to + styl
This is absolute gold. Dude knows what he’s doing for sure.
Thanks JayJo, we appreciate the support.
I need sooo much more content like this! I'm an aspiring builder and restorer and this stuff is absolutely invaluable!
Thanks mate, lots to come. Subscribe, like, bellit and share.
@killerdrumstv I just finished my first full resto on a 2004 PDP CX maple kit w/new double-45° bearing edges, finished insides, and sealed with Penetrol all thanks to watching this video(and this series) about 100 times. It plays and sounds amazing! Thanks for sharing all this incredible knowledge!
Hey man, thanks for your comment. I’m glad you can use the knowledge.
Really good skills, thanks very much! I’m about to build a huge Keller shell kit. I have about 40 square sized shells which I need to cut, fit reinforcement rings and cut bearing edges. You have just saved me huge stacks of time! I can’t thank you enough! 👍
You're welcome. Thanks for your comment and be sure to tell others about us. We have a bunch more resto video scheduled to film.
I have a 50+ year old set of Tama's including 13",14",15" and 16" rack concert toms and would like to renew the bearing edge of them to "factory condition. Received them as used, when I was 15 and getting serious into drumming. This video, and the particular detail you provide in it, is just the inspiration for a project, as I approach retirement. The drums have the same reinforcement hoop interior and is part of the bearing edge. Also, the identical flake pattern sprayed on the inner shell, as do your Rogers'. I need only to purchase a table style router and a few other tools required. Would be nice to hear how good they would have sounded, right out of the factory. Brilliant video...well done!
Thanks. We appreciate the comments.
Great video and Stellar workmanship from St Louis! Cheers
Thank mate! Shout out to St Louis from killerdrums.TV
My new favorite channel!
Thats what we like to hear! thanks for your support 🙌
Great content! Thanks!
Wow… after quite a while I stumble back to the same video…. For clarity, look at 6:55… this where the speaker says” cutting, not cutting.. cutting, not cutting”….. THAT is the proof.
And yes the “ right order …IS…
1) place on “ known flat surface” and check for gaps ( by .. a) shining a light onto the flat surface from inside the drum and look for “ light” ( light means gaps, means bearing edge not flat) or ..b) try to “ rock” the drum… if you can hear/ feel a click or tap… again the bearing edge is not flat.I
So
2) yes start cutting infinitely shallow cuts… remove as LITTLE MATERIAL as you can with a router. After the first full cut, You may notice exactly what the speaker stated … cut… not cut…
3) take pics… just so you will be able to see the progression…
4) using a sharpee or magic marker.. “ blacken “ the WHOLE “ slant/ bevel” edge where you expect to be cutting… AND … the very top/ end of the shell where the head should actually make contact..BUT DONT blacken any area that won’t likely be cut away… ( unless you WANT magic marker left on your drums)
5) adjust the router to take JUST A LITTLE MORE…. another very fine MINIMAL cut.
6) inspect and note how much magic marker is still remaining.. this is where the bearing bevel and edge are still low / not flat.
7)…. NOW… IS WHERE you might make the first set of sand paper table attempts…
8) sand / rotate for a moment and then INSPECT.. ..THIS… THIS… THIS… IS THE PART WHERE YOU WILL SEE HOW BAD/ not flat the drum bearing is… clean wood= high spots… magic marker = low spots…= the places where you drum head was never seating= that’s why you could never get a great tuning at lower tensions.
9 Now back to the router… take away a LITTLE more bevel… and again inspect.
10 Back to the sanding table SAND JUST A LITTLE … BUT EVENLY AROUND THE DRUM
11) YOU you are trying to take away as little material ( wood) as possible while leaving NO MAGIC MARKER.
…
12) now you are close… start light hand sanding… not heavy sanding… sanding like you are polishing the very top of the drum. 220 sand paper, then 320, then 400.
13) I have no idea about the bees wax or other lubes… but yes assuring that the head tension can easily balance in all directions is important.
CUT AWAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE..
MAGIC MARKER ..EARLY … in the process …helps you track / see your progress
Chers mate.
very nice job!
Thank you! Cheers!
Very cool , thanks😊
You're welcome! Tony
Great video! Thanks
Hey Kevin, thanks for taking the time to comment. Heaps more coming, let your drummer friends know to subscribe to catch the next Rogers resto, a full kit.
Could you explain it with an Slingerland Tom? I would love it! Amazing video!
I'll try and buy an old slingerland tom and make a bearing when film for tou.
@@KillerDrumsTV You are The Best! Thank You! Hi fron México city!
I'm thinking of making a bench like yours.
Is that a granite kitchen worktop? Or something even flatter like a granite surface plate
And is the metal (aluminium?) that the routers are attached to something you made yourself / had made?
Hey mate, this one is my B bench, it’s a granite slab with a custom ally plate I’ve machined to suit what I want. Basically to have two or three cutters set and running at any one time. So I can cut inner and outer super quick.
I recommend a granite surface plate and 5mm ally plate for the routers rigged to be perfectly flush with your surface plate.
My A rig is better than the b rig, but it’s 20 times the price and out of the reach if most people, so I use the B rig here to keep it real for those wanting to try and do the same.
All the best with the project.
Tony
I have my dad's '72 Rodgers with a black wrap and they do sound amazing both recorded and live. However the 12" tom is a bit out of true on the batter side which can make for some fiddly tuning. I've got it dialed in right now but I've been thinking about getting it recut. I don't actually trust my skills enough to do it myself yet but I'm gonna get some cheap, crap drums and practice.
Years ago when I was wanting to actually hear what difference a bearing edge made to a shell, I'd buy massive tubes of Keller shells in 12" and 14" diameters the cut a whole bunch of shells the same depth and put different edges on them all.
But that's a was to practice on quality shells and they are cheap.
Always use sharp cutters.
Have fun. Tony
@@KillerDrumsTV Thanks
to true the edges it is in my experience faster and better to use a big A2 sheet of 60-80 grid sandpaper, and sand the complete edge in one go.. no other tools needed.. often i cut the edges 50% first so there is less to sand off. Easy and perfect edges.
Hey mate, appreciate the thought, however the issue with a large A2 sanding plate like DW and others show often in use in videos, is that it cuts the whole surface and not just the high spots; this done with absolute even downward pressure over the whole bearing edge line will achieve good results. HOWEVER, in practice this is rarely, very rarely achieved, especially as shells get larger, where you physically can't hold down more than the small area where your hands are positioned. Second, the paper wears unevenly and so the illusion is that it's cutting evenly but the reality is that it's not and can't cut evenly. As such I now only use a sanding area as large as my hands can keep pressure on and can quickly replace the paper as it fails. But I agree edges must be cut before you fine tune these edges on the granite slab with sand paper, then cut and true until it's perfect. I've extensively used both methods and ultimately ditched the A2 sheets method in favour of this alternate and simple method. Lastly the palm block plane is an essential tool in experienced hands for bearing edge trueing. Often A2 sanding method throws the bearing edge out of right angle to the shell from one side to another. I've had to repair this on many revered hand made drums.
We have a bunch of new resto videos going up, some dealing with controversial topics and issue and demonstrating the proof of their failure.
I appreciate the chat, have a great day. Tony
Hi! Thanks for the awesome videos! I just really wanted to see how you finished the varnish.. Could you tell me how many layers of the poly you ended up putting on all together? And did you put anything else on top of that or was it just the poly? Thanks!
Hey Zanis, thanks for your comment. Four hand rubbed coats and nothing on top. What you see is the actual poly product. The trick is using the super fine steel wool in between and removing all wool dust before coating again. The good thing is that if you stuff a coat up, just use wet and dry, 800-2000 grit sand paper to flatten and bumps and take off the sheen of the last coat and go again. All the best with your project and thanks for watching.
Kind regards Tony Moore
Like a great many players; I like the idea of a lovely vintage set of Roger, Slingerland or Leedy etc, but it must be remembered that (a) they are OLD, (b) the quality control wasn't always consistent, (c) they are quite expensive - often as much as a set from a premium or custom builder. Should I need another set of drums they will be from a British builder with from the oldest indigenous wood available and let that sound breath through my playing.
Good thoughts Robert. Thanks for your comment.
thank you! what is drum shell made of?
Hi, Rogers used “Jasper” shells from the 50's thru about 1962; which were 2 or 3 ply depending on the shell size, with a 2 or 3 ply rering. These shells were maple/poplar/maple. The painted shells usually had a thin outer veneer of mahogany.
Rogers switched to “Keller” shells, which were originally 3-ply but standardised to 5-ply within a year or 2. These shells were Maple/birch.
This drum is the later. Thanks for your comment.
thank you!
Hi mate ,
I just had my drums repainted they look great but the bearing edge has been painted also.The edges are flat perfect but have paint.
Does it need to be removed ?
Tested it it sounded OK?
Thanks dude.
As long as it's smooth and the edge true, it rarely matters what the contact point actually is.
Thx for the tips👍🏻 one question: what is the grit for the sandpaper?
Have a good day
Ewan, Tony uses a variety of grades, and also old sand paper that’s worn down. Generally however, a good quality 240 grit sand paper.
What are the angles on your cutting blades
Hey John, sorry for the late reply. Tony uses several cutters, some are actually custom made. These ones in particular are CMT 45 degrees, with a trace bearing.
Hi Tony, where are you located?
Hey Dre, Sunshine Coast, AUSTRALIA.
I don't think your order of operations makes sense. You should get the edge flat first, then bevel it, because the datum you're using for your bevels is the edge.
No!
what the name of the stain on that 15”drum
It's a Watson product, sometimes I use a Japan black stain, but any quality black stain will work. All the best with your project.
Kind regards Tony Moore
Dude, sweep away the waste!
Thanks man, don’t let the dust distract you.
@@KillerDrumsTV I loved the content and info! The waste on the bench was distracting though! Nice work! Subscribed!
Yeah, it’s a good point. I’m working on a set of teaching videos that are more slick, but you have to pay for the info there.
These are free, But I try to make these real and genuine as possible, with diy tools, done in ways that a novice could try with a decent level of success.
I have all the high end gear but that’s no fun if you want to have a go and can’t because you don’t have the expert gear to make it so.
I think this is the most misleading teaching about making bearing edges. The most, I repeat THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is the level drum with the sides. After that comes routing and everything else. Drum on level, checking with light it sits right on level and after that, routing. Everything else was ok, but the most important point, level it first for clear cut.
Hey thanks for your comment.
I've done thousands of drums mate, any and every way conceivable, not as a dIYer but a tradesman, a craftsman. Most bearing edge videos are DIYers who make drum videos and so they wouldn't know a lot of things and just do things on repeat; what ever they saw with out thought.
A craftsman, tries things every which way to do things faster and maintain or improve the quality of result.
As such, I've heard everyones thoughts on this stuff of decades, but their practice fails in function and efficiency every time.
There are many schools of thought around bearing edges. Most hardliners with only "one way" have only explored one way, or only know one way. They can't think any differently as their skills and awareness just aren't up to the task.
Simply, The physics of a drum necessary to activate what we want in a drum are simple. But so many don't even understand that at all.
Here it is for you: If an African hollowed out log with nothing perfectly round, level, true or at 90 degrees, with bearing edges hacked out with a sharp rock can produce a more pure and resonate tone that all the previous applied to a perfectly crafted drum shell like DW then you're missing something, right.
That said, and to respond to your criticism. Those who don't reduce the bearing edge material first are wasting their time rotating a drum on sandpaper. As their musing around and around for hours (sarcastically used) to reduce a wide surface (as opposed to a smaller surface) often just proves the point that people only know one way and don't have the skills or awareness to try other ways BEFORE making judgment.
In fact, I'll add your comment into my next resto video, to put your theory under fire and cut one side each way and show others why your way is actually a waste of time and introduces the potential to impact negatively on the result. A rule in quality and efficient craftsmanship, is reduce before your get precise, other wise it's a waste of time.
Your method is not technically wrong, it's just not better or even right professionally. It's DIY folly. A profession has the approach to every task with quality as the only goal, and skilled precision and efficiency, the method.
If I can cut a better or even the same quality edge in 10 minutes, and others take 45 minutes; both are of equal quality, but only one was smart and a better way. Try it.
Thanks for you thoughts, have a great day.
The lemonade?
I key doe k
Can I get a contact number please if that's alright I'm in Darwin and I have an old brady snare that has had a drop and not sure if can be fixed cheers Doug
Sure Doug, I can fix anything. Killerdrums.TV@gmail.com
At approx 8:00 minutes in… the first “ skim cur” is completed and the speaker shows the unevenness of the new bearing edge cut….. this is due to how BADLY…HOW POORLY…. the bearing edges were cut originally and how TERRIBLE the quality control at Rogers was. I own a 1970 (? +/- a year or two) Rogers red onyx holiday kit….. not one…. BUT……ALLLLL…. of my tom and bass drum bearings were HORRIBLE….. CRIMINAL….JUNK !
Yes I re- cut them…. And yes the drums sound “ better” but no- where NEAR…as nice as my Yamaha or Mapex drums….. “ Loud and projecting?”…. yes…. Pure, clean and focused ?….. hell no…
So if there are drummers that swear that their Rogers Swivomatics sound great… doesn’t this hint toward how BAD the QC and consistency was? …
Let me guess…. Buddy Rich and Louise Belson had their drums hand picked and a dozen Rogers drums were declined before they landed on a “ good sounding “ set.
Ps… I also have two early Swivo bass drum pedals too…… ( short board)…. JUNKKK…
The mounting plate that attaches to the BD rim/ hoop causes a failed geometry where the pedal rests way too far from the laying surface ( head)…. So the beater is traveling well past “ perpendicular” when it is contacting the head. Swiveling the upper portion of the assembly to correct for this is NOT the correct correction as now the beater would then be traveling at at a horizontal angle as well…..
Although a great idea….. again…… JUNK….
For the time (1960-1980) the Ludwig speed king was twice the pedal….
Do I love my Rogers? Sure… I’ve had them since 1973… so they are family…. But THEY…ARE….NOT……. my “ go to drums for recording or small band low volume combo gigs.
There are WAY too many wild overtones.
Just curious…. Show me a pic or a video…. Of ANY of the modern greats playing 1960s- 1970s Rogers Swivo….I can think of ONE drummer… ( Counting Crows).
Again…LOUD… ( big band and rock) they are ok….. quiet… they are noisy wild overtone laden mid grade junk
Hey J, yeah I understand. The thing I like about old Rogers, is that compared to more other manufactures at the time, their shell construction method was superior.
So as in anything if you have quality materials, quality design and quality craftsmanship, you get a quality result. That's why, with vintage drums, I particularly like tweaking Rogers shells.
That said all modern manufactures should be making quality shells, particularly with computer controlled production and consistency. That said, the Timbers used these days are very young and that can sometimes lose the characteristics of age and stability in tone and timber.
I generally find most drums need work, even my brand new kits at times.
The point that many never discuss about modern drums, is that of fixing lugs on to the shell too tightly causing the shell to choke and all that good wood and tone to go to waste.
All the best mate.
Regards Tony.
3M 4611 tape is my go to -100degrees to 500+degrees.....only at the overlap which is under a long lug.
Hey mate, a long time ago in Bethlehem, I did an A/B of three methods of wrapping a drum, focused on the seeing if there was a reduction, increase or neutral affect from the method on sustain, tone, and anything else. Tape of any kind had the greatest negative impact as it effectively created an air cavity between the shell and the wrap, much like how it is used in studio walls for sound deadening.
The best was a thin film glue film over the entire shell with compression. That said the method I use is contact spray glue on the shell and the wrap. Wait 5 minutes and then bring together and they are glued on contact.
In essence I can wrap a drum faster this way than in using tape and you almost can’t tell any tonal difference (in resonance not pitch) between an unwrapped shell of the same thickness and a wrapped shell.
There is nothing wrong with tape, but it’s worth noting that wrapped YAMAHA recording custom drums are the most difficult to remove their wraps because of the full contact and type of glue used for drum wraps so to not take away from the shells resonance.
Thanks for your comment.
yes I pondered using 3M super 77 all under it all and the 4611 at just the overlap . Looks like that is the winner despite so many that said it would creep in the heat of car in the summer. Bethlehem had a great music store in the 80s called Kempher Music. Bought many Paiste there.
If you’re a little ways away, hang in for my wrapping video. I’ve seen all the ridiculous was people advise how to wrap a drum, but if they were cabinetmakers there is really only one method that is professional; and I’ve reduced that to a diy method with 100% success.
Subscribe and it will let you know when it’s up.
@@KillerDrumsTV yes still a few days away from heading into the unknown lol. I refrained from super 77 as it now contains acetone. I went for a high heat polymat 797x spray adhesive good for pvc to wood at 220 degree flash point. Delmar solid color wrap being Pvc wrap. Just watched part 3 again for the 10th time going to sand bearing edges again as I used only 120 grit .... going to rub together as you suggest here to up closer to 200 grit
I am working a new raw shell...I know you said penetrol on bearing edges here as well as interior on other videos. How about the exterior with penetrol ? I know that leaves either wrapping or using oil based finishes....I plan to wrap with delmar using only tape on an 8" premier tom . The other toms are lacquer finished....
Penetrol oil dries and can be treated as a primer, meaning you can definitely seal the outer of the shell too.
I have a kit here I made back at the millennium (2000) and it’s 100% penetrol inside, outside, edges and also drill holes. It looks almost as good as day one.
The byline on the Penetrol can is something like “makes paint stick to anything”. It’s my go to.