I LOST... Did The Ref Screw Me? | BJJ Rolling Commentary
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
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Eric did give you the last advantage. Also despite Eric being one of the most knowledgeable refs in Canada, he also is so baked most of the tournaments that coaches need to remind him what's going on half the time.
We are told as refs to defer matches to another ref if it's our teammate (the guy talking is his teammate, and best friend, not his coach), usually you would be asked if you're cool, but my above statement points to him probably not even considering it.
The sweep points weren't yours as you started out on top, got swept then reswept to top side. He got the advantage as the sweep was initiated in bounds, your resweep was out of bounds and therefore everything that happened after that was worth nothing. It was a reset because there was no fixed position as you went out of bounds, just his advantage for the initial successful sweep.
At the start with the closed guard; guard is seen as both a neutral and dominant position for the person on bottom. Top players only option is to open and pass, bottom has submissions available, therefore the onus is typically on the top player to force the action as they have no ability to win the match from their current position. Also as he did have your arm in a bad spot he had no reason to move. Essentially a check.
I watched this in person. Similar to Volk x Islam 1, he won the sport but you won the fight.
Huge respect to you for going point for point with him.
RIP Mikey
Great explanation, it helped me make sense of a couple things
Thanks for clearing it all up so well! Eric is definitely a great ref. I hope I didn't come across as throwing any shade at him. One day Nathan and I need a rematch. He's a great competitor. Canada is often under appreciated for the talent we have here.
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu definitely didn't come across that way. Honestly I would have hated to ref that match. The situations you guys presented would have taken a keen eye to keep track of.
Agree with everything said above ... Just to add, that last advantage, you had the yellow and green belt on, and he gave the advantage with the yellow and green arm band. It just looks weird because either you started on the wrong side, or he is wearing the arm band on the wrong side, but it is correctly an advantage to you.
You should’ve submitted the ref too
Haha a roll with Eric would be amazing for the channel! He's much smaller than me but really good.
😂 found the Best comment
Lol 😂
I always appreciate it when people show their losses as well as their wins. So much to learn from both. I don't know enough to comment on the match but was fun to watch!
If Kron can get screwed, anyone can.
Not everyday you see someone post a video admitting the title and thumbnail were clickbait lmao. I respect it. You're my favorite BJJ channel on CZcams. Keep the videos coming. Every single one is extremely helpful.
Thanks man! I try to always keep it real 🙏👊
If that is the refs coach he should definitely not be trying to influence the ref because it puts him in a really awkward position. All the close calls seemed to go his way which always frustrating especially given the situation of the ref being teammates with the other guy.
Yeah this seems like a huge conflict of interest. Not saying the ref did a bad job (I'm new, so I don't know tbh lol), but the conflict still exists.
I’ve been on the receiving end of my coach’s badgering gotta stay impartial.
He shouldn’t be a ref period on that mat. It’s the definition of bias.
You’re rolling against the entire gym here
At 3:51, the sweep starts and the ref waits to see if he stabilizes. If he does then he can score the 2 points. However, your movement prevents him from stabilizing and scoring the 2 points and he only gets advantage.
Now that the action is in safety area, further actions cannot be counted. The sequence is stopped at that point. Reset standing in the middle is the correct response.
Ref gives you advantage towards the end, his arm has the coloured band which is your belt.
Scoring is correct.
Ah ok thanks for clarifying! One day I'll learn the rules better lol
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu you can finish and stabilise moves in the safety area that were started on the mat.
The ref is looking for a stabilized position to reset back to for the move that took action into the safety area.
If he had stabilized, you would have reset in same position. As it was, he didn't, so action stops at that point.
It doesn't count for the guard pass to side control because he should have called stop as soon as his sweep failed to stabilise, and you can't start and score a move from within safety area.
No stabilised position means a standing reset in middle.
@@sunnythelum makes total sense! Like I said I'm not bitter. I should have done more to win. On me 100% for the loss, not the ref 🙂
@JordanTeachesJiujitsu Kinda crazy that very experienced BJJ players still don't have full grasp of the rules! Must be unique for BJJ 😂
@@simmme Also, some of the rulings require specific knowledge and updates to that knowledge on a regular basis. I was up on the rules real good a few years ago but stopped reading them so often and looking up the resolutions to problems. So now my knowledge is outdated and often incorrect. If someone doesn't compete real regular, they probably won't dedicate the time to really know the rules since it's not very relevant to them.
Rematch anybody???? Yaaaa
Was just at your seminar and also have trained under Nathan Dos Santos a good amount. Was not expecting to see him when I clicked on this video😂
I had you 6-6 but he had 2 advantages… considering this is your first brown belt tournament bro, much respect to you!!! I love your channel!
I love the guard pull ankle pick. I don't know about scoring.
@ 4:00 you wouldn’t get 2 points for a sweep because you, technically, were still the top player. You were on top to begin with, drop to a hip, and we’re only momentarily “on the bottom” through that transition. You then ended up back on top and in side control, which is, in turn, worth three points.
You won the match.
Also, the scramble @ 6:36 could be, at the refs discretion, an advantage for you. However there is no tournament ruling on earth where that should be an advantage for him. I’m pretty sure you got that advantage though as the ref raised his wrist with your color marker.
…lol yeah. Right @ 3:36 when it’s clear that you are ending up on top and passing, the ref is waving it off before you extend his leg, securing the pass.
This was clearly selective timing and transparent bias. If you ended up back on top in his guard, then he could get an advantage for nearly sweeping but…
Yepp that advantage makes no sense to me. I feel like I lost due to the size of the mat lol.
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu that’s why I’ve always, sorta’, despised IBJJF rules. They seem to protect what Lloyd Ervin used to call “bitch ass Ness”. 🤣
Especially Gi tournaments back then. Stalling in guard with sleeve grips…the rules don’t promote the type of techniques & game plans that translate well to anything else, including MMA. ADCC is much better and less ambiguous.
While most people only show themselves winning matches, you stand out. Oss!
I love to see Jordan competing at tournaments
I used to compete non stop! I need to get back to it soon :)
@6:48 check the color of the referee's band, he did give it to you. He even checked that you had the yellow green belt on before giving it to you. If it went to your opponent, then the table judge took the bribe 💰 😂😂.
would love to see a rematch, Nate’s had a ton of competition success lately.
He's been killing it! Rematch one day for sure!
I would love to see more gi content!
Dude the coach is literally telling the ref, who is also his own student and seems passive af, what calls to make? Utterly ridiculous.
What part of Canadá you have the gym? I planning on visiting may 2024😊
Nice idea for a video. I think that it sucks that your first step out negated the pass to side control. I don’t think there was enough time in any one position there to award a sweep or pass, throuh. I guess that’s the nature of a good scramble. Otherwise, the match seemed pretty even, but it looked like he fairly secured 6 points. His stiff-arm defense against the last sweep was the game changer-otherwise it could have gone either way. The advantages did not make sense to me.
At 6:45 he gave the advantage with the arm with the yellow and green wristband, but you and your opponent were in switched places, maybe the person who keeps the score got confused, he even look to your belt... The mistake from the Ref was not to put you guys on you're right "corners"! It was something that I noted! Nevertheless, love your channel and your didatics! From a Blue Belt from Brasil! Oss...
Can you do a guard tier list?! ♥
I need to see you in ADCC!
BUMPING FOR ALGY 🤘
Good match mate
Would love to see you roll with Tyler Spangler for a vid
I’m a ref with impact bjj tournaments which uses the ibjjf rules in the local Utah/Idaho tournament scenes. If these are based on ibjjf rules there were some odd calls. If these aren’t ibjjf rules then forget everything I wrote here haha.
The penalties being given to both athletes I like. I’ve had to ref teammates and had my coaches yelling at me for not agreeing with calls when giving penalties or advantages to the opponent. And it sucks so for the ref to make their call is good.
I think the ref might have been confused with the stand up but not the advantage. Usually you would perform a stand up of both athletes performed a takedown out of bounds, or a sweep initiated exiting the athletes. I personally would have called stop checked the positions and reset in the middle.
Why your opponent got the advantage had to do with who was in what position at the start and the end. You started on the top position. Bolo was initiated (no sweep points awarded) you get off balanced and put in the bottom position (still no sweep points) you rebolo and get caught on the bottom but your opponent can’t stabilize the position for 3 sec because you get back on top. So the end result is you got back on top after being threatened with a sweep.
I think that the sweep attempt at the 6:40 mark was not correct. You initiated the sweep starting on bottom, he then stiff arms away. The definition of an advantage for the sweep is having a guard, coming on top, and not maintaining the 3 seconds required for the score.
With all this said I give kudos to all refs it’s a thankless job. I think that every brown and black belt should ref it’s a great way to learn the points/rule META.
Advantage for him for sweep, no points for you as it's out of yellow safety area so must restart as not established in the area. There should be no points for his ankle pick as you were on the way down to sit. And yes, advantage at the end should be to you.
I feel like both our ankle picks weren't really ankle picks but only mine didn't score lol
If someone pulls guard and you sweep their other foot (in ibjjf at least) it still counts as a takedown so I assume the pick should be along the same lines
If they grab your leg as you're sitting down they get 2 points.
@@TheCrystalbrite - it depends who initiated the movement - if you in the process of pulling guard grabbing your pants won't give him points. At least that's what they teach on IBJJF, UKBJJA, AJP ref courses (I'm ref).
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu - there should be no points but I had to rewind few times to see what was first - pulling guard or ankle grab - this ref didn't have the chance as it was very quick.
Hey Jordan. With you being a gym owner, have you been in the opposite situation where your student is a ref at the match you’re cornering? Should the coach at the point do something like remove himself from the corner? Seems controversial to me
Considering the amount of practitioners that cant make sense of the scoring system, wouldn't you think it would be time to reevaluate how the system works?
I gave up trying to understand points in BJJ long time ago after having a couple similar experiences that people couldn't explain.
Oh man. I just competed recently and lost in the finals for a similar reason. My opponenet held me in closed guard and wouldn't open for the life of him. I got called for stalling, when HE was the person stalling. So I lost due to a negative point. He never scored a single point, but celebrated like he just did something incredible. And your oppenent getting an advantage for that is BS. Oh well, guess we gotta submit them all. 😤
So lame. I hate dealing with stallers. It's exactly why I never want to compete in the Gi again. I've been stuck in lasso for 10 mins and lost the match from referee decision. Of course it's on me to pass, but if he's doing anything with his lasso.... Same thing with closed guard in this match. As soon as he opened the action started yet I get called for stalling lol. Like bro I want to roll not be stuck here.
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu dude that's how my opponent started the match too! He went straight to a lasso with a spider and just wanted to hold it. Then transitioned to closed guard. I could never celebrate winning by stalling.
That's why closed guard is a very good position tactically speaking regarding competiton: as a top player you have to advance your position and it is your responsibility to break the guard and advance and closed guard is very effortless for bottom player to maintain and keep compared to top player. One time in Finnish nationals (or open, can't remember) brown and black belt final was lost by a top player who was leading in points and kept pinning side control but did not make efforts to advance position or to look for submission. He racked up enough warnings and was eventually dq'd. 😂
@@mulkosilma I agree, closed guard is a good tactical position for competition. A true closed guard player attacks and looks to advance position. My gripe (and I think Jordan's too) is with people who use this position to play the system, but really have no intention to attack and advance (stallers).
The first advantage should have gone to you for the sweep and the reset was appropriate since position wasn’t fully established
Ref got everything right to me.
The only one that's open to interpretation really is the 2 minutes in closed guard. The safest option as a ref is to give dbl penalties when top is stuck in closed guard. Unless top has had very obvious attempts to try to get out, ex: standing up, pushing knee down and bottom player not transitioning to open.
Resets: when a scramble happens outside the mats i.e action doesn't stop ref resets. Exception: if a submission is locked [if spinning to correct direction to escape - 2 points].
Because Nate comes up and it's not a scramble, i.e clearly he has now solidified top and clearly you are not in the middle of sweeping him back in that instant, the ref resets from current position. You'll see IBJJF refs dragging athletes to the centre, if the grips are hard to replicate. Ref gave you the advantage for the near sweep, but he should've had you to his right at the reset, so I totally understand why you may have thought he got it in the heat of the match.
Lastly, bottom player off-balancing and you getting back on top is never an advantage for top, you weren't really close to taking his back that could've warranted the advantage, at least it wasn't apparent or serious enough of a threat to me. It's basically: "oh he almost swept you:" advantage for him. Great fight! Hope to see more matches from you!
Don’t necessarily disagree with the points awarded to either side but the two advantages were definitely suspect, as well as the restart
my dude look at the refs arm. he did give you the advantage. if you didnt get them its on the score keepers desk. great content as always
Yepp I see that now! I think the confusion came from having us on the opposite sides. So it looked like it was for him but it was actually me.
I think it was a bit fishy that you got a sweep into out of bounds and got reset to standing with no points or advantages with an advantage to him, what was that even for!?!?! When he got that same thing he got reset into top position, absolutely ridiculous. I think the coach had too much influence over the ref and honestly tournament organizers should be more careful so that conflicts of interest dont arise like this. Definitely an unfortunate situations for both of you as it would have been a much better match had it been more fairly reffed. Great work regardless!
if you start on top and end up on top, theres no points or adv. Nathan gets adv for tryin to sweep and Jordan just recovered from it to being back on top. 1 adv Nathan. scramble went out of bounds and stopped before a control was established (3 second). so there's no position to restart in. so good restart.
Second out of bounds are closer to the edge and stayed in play with ended in a controlled manner.
I just started 3 weeks ago but this is why I don’t care to compete. I competed in karate for years and I know there is favoritism. Anyways after a year or so I’m going for muythai since I’ll have some wrestling and ground idea and just want to be ready for any street attacker.
not really a reason not to compete. Vast majority of refs have no idea who the competitors are.
I don’t agree with the reset. You would’ve had side control and should have gotten points for the sweep as well as the position
Yepp. I wish the mat space was bigger. Sucks for the size of the mat to dictate me not getting points or position.
Don't remember exact rules but if they reset to neutral then the one with dominant position gets 2 points.
This happened to me at NAGA.. disappointed is an understatement.
when are we gonna see you competing in adcc
How come you dont compete anymore? Will you any time again soon?
It feels like if you spent the whole round trapped in his guard, the ref would have given it to him because guard has submission options.
But if you had held his teammate in guard the whole round, he would have given it to his teammate because if it were a fight, playing top is better.
A lot of the calls were arguable but at the very least it looks like he was giving his buddy the benefit of the doubt. And the most, he looked like the craig jones kynan ADCC ref, just determined to make his guy win.
The second advantage should have went to you. But it looks like the ref did give you the advantage based on the hand signal. Secondly in the beginning of the match, the reason why you didn’t get the sweep points is because you already started on top. He swept you first but he didn’t establish control and then you immediate re-sweeped. So technically there was no change in position since you started on top position, therefore no points.
Scoring was correct 👍
Around 6:45 when he awards the advantage, Eric checks twice to make sure he gives you the advantage (not Nate) as you are wearing the colour belt and he gives the advantage to the colour belt side.
Yepp 100%! Learned a lot about the point system from this video 🙂
👊👊👊
None of those advantages are making sense in my mind, first one you recovered from the scramble and came up on top position wouldnt that be no advantage at all and just continue from the last position before going out of bounds? And then he goes out of bounds and they start you both back on the ground that was weird.
No, the re-set was not fair that ref had no expiriance.and i agree u should had sumitted the ref 😂😂😂great fight 🦾
MMA refs are the only people out there with less of an idea of what's going on than a BJJ ref.
How did he get an advantage? That man was shoulder blades and coccyx to the ground with you controlling his side. I am guessing ref nulled the entanglement the moment y’all rolled out the area
The first advantage for Nathan was because he swept you but was unable to maintain the top position as you managed to reverse the position and get back on top, so you made it back to where you started from so no points or advantage for you.
The second advantage definitely should’ve went to you. You had your guard established and were able to sweep him onto his back before he scrambled up to his feet.
As for the 6-4, I feel like that was correct.
I’ve had some suspect reffing by Eric in the past too. Great competitor but his heart definitely isn’t into reffing as he’s usually baked lol
The second advantage I guess did go to me too, it just looked otherwise because we were not on our correct sides but he raised his arm with my arm band. I didn't catch that until it was pointed out. 6-4 is correct for sure, but woulda been nice (for me lol) if our "ankle picks" were both scored. But his was definitely more real. Close match! :)
I referee a lot with IBJJF rules and no the ref did not "screw" you. Both of you were being hesitant, so the stalling penalties are right. He swept you into the safety area but you then you recovered and went off the mat so that is an advantage for him as he was not able to stay on top for 3 seconds. You went off the mat in a scramble so the ref re-starts you standing as he should. He gets a clean 2 for the takedown. Then the ref stops the match while you are in the safety area and re-sets you in the same position as he should. You sweep back and forth, and on that last attempt you can see the ref gives YOU the advantage as you are wearing the yellow and green belt and he signals the advantage with the arm with the yellow and green wrist band. He should've had you on that side to avoid confusion. I don't know if the table scorekeeper got that right. He should've had 6 points, 1 advantage and 1 penalty vs. your 4 points 1 advantage and 1 penalty which is I think what you say at the end there
Thanks man! Like I said I don't know the point system as well as ref does. I learned a lot from the comments! I could have asked a ref before making the video but I figured it would be more interesting this way!
Nah you got screwed on points 😮
you don't get sweep points, because you weren't in a guard. You only get sweep points from a guard. You were on top and you kept top.
Yeah man, I agree initially with you. It seems like favoritism especially with advantages. In is not other grappling sport were out of bound's lines are so defined. Control was not established for a reversal usually its three seconds. That was not established and you ended up on top. It depends on the location usually they the refs allow rolling on the other matt's if it is not obstructing other matches ext. I and not understand the advantages with technical aggression and submission attempts. Honestly, I have had a few match with similar things happened and advantage points a long time. Was your team there coaching and were you the only person competing? Exactly is not "gi Jiujitsu," but it is a "gi Jiujitsu," match with rules and points. It looks like favoritism to me.
🤟
I think you got screwed, but as I was taught in wrestling, never leave the decision up to the ref. Much easier said than done.
I've witnessed this many times and can only suggest that there is something I call subliminal bias that exists. I suppose it could just be my way of giving them the benefit of the doubt, refereeing is way harder than I thought. Give it a go maybe volunteer to run the scoreboard at a local comp. Simply concentrating all day is tricky and refs will always make mistakes as well as occasional bias creeping in but it's hard to say which is which in most instances. The way I see it is base your success on your performance not the result as sometimes you'll simply get shafted and the best response is to treat it like a learning experience and do even better next time.
I feel like the advantages didn’t make sense. The restarts were fine. The first you guys ended up on the other mat by the time you were done so I don’t really see you getting any sweep points or restarting from the position you ended up The second restart you guys barely ended up out of bounds so I think restarting in the same position was fine.
As a side note I really hate advantages and one sided stalling calls. If you haven’t already,you should look at UWW matches and their rules. No advantages, stalling is called every 15 seconds and award points then if you get 4 stalling penalties you’re dq’d. The matches are great and you can’t play the rules in a cheap way.
6-4 points 1-1 ads (the last advantage was actually for you, he just reset you on the wrong sides but the hand indicates an ad for you). Time for a rematch?
Why you gotta be such a great ref and rain on my parade 😅. Can't you find a way for me to win lol??
@JordanTeachesJiujitsu if you were brazilian you would have gotten a free 2 points
Total bs ref. You should've got 2 points for the sweep at 4:00 and no advantage for him. End of match should've been a tie not a 2 point lead for him.
Nope, Jordan started that whole transaction “on top”. He certainly deserved the points for the pass into side controle though. 3️⃣
All respect to the ref but it seem like he allowed the transition to continue, giving an opportunity for the sweep, but ended it with no points once Jordan fell inside control.
Ref looks clueless
Why on earth was he allowed to ref for a match involving his teammate? Ref should've recused himself upon realizing the clear conflict of interest.
Points looked OK but the advantage was b.s.
Dude, the referee screwed you smh 🤦♂️ 😢 you had position on the Ground. Why get up 😂 why is the Referee listening to the crowd 😂😅 what tournament is this so I can no go 🤦♂️🤣
I think losing helped you stay grounded - due to having an enormous bjj iq
🙏
Brampton soccer centre?
Yepp!
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu did you grow up in the gta or have you always been in Trenton ?
@@poffomania always been in Trenton. Moved here when I was 2 when my dad was posted here with the military. I lived in Ottawa 2 years after highschool. Even that was too big of a city for me lol.
@@JordanTeachesJiujitsu nice good luck with the new gym that opened up I listened to the podcast today. Keep up the good work
No you should have received points, unless there is some kind of out of bound’s issue.
if you werent accusing the ref, you wouldnt have mentioned that they were teammates.
I needed an angle to make the video more interesting. I state that in the video. I admit I don't know the point system very well. Also stated in the video 🙂
I thought the decisions were right
Jordan, you are too nice bro anybody with a brain in your comment section knows you got Robbed sorry g ❤
yaysayers without a brain are the worst
👊🏼🫶🏼
the ref and your opponent's coach ran you for your money J
Yea it looks like the system was a little rigged, the coaches shouldn't have any say on the refs decision and calling "reset" only when it benefits them
You should've got that sweep and not the reset. The Ref was definitely influenced by the other bloke's coach. Humans are biased and easy influenced. He doesn't look like a very experienced ref to me.
The advantage at 6:45 did go to you. You guys are standing on the wrong sides
Ah ok noted!
Definitely missed points on your side it seems. Fishy match for sure. You k ow what your doing and the fact you posted this asking about it, to me, shows you know something wasn't right.
I personally didn’t see any missed points.
All things aside, i find No-Gi more fast paced, dynamic and exciting to watch.
I can see the Gi fighting importance for self defence, but maybe it's not the best for competitions.
I hear you dude, but tbh what really matters is who submits who. Submission isn’t something that’s open for interpretation. Stop bitching about 2 points 😂
Do you think I sounded like I was bitching about 2 points?
It's crazy comparing this with your current videos, nowadays you seem so chill and elegant, even in tournaments or against tougher opponents.
Even tho you were already a brown belt here, we can notice how much you evolved in these 6 years. Great content man.
The advantage system in bjj is one of the stupidest things in all of sports
No points. He initiated the bolo which u tried to rebolo while you were up then down for barely 1 second then u reversed. More so other guy got the advantage than u. He failed the sweep but was close to it