Glider Crosswind Landing with Flaps Explained
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2024
- A subscriber request: How to land with flaps, in windy conditions. Here I show how I do it in my Ventus cT Motor glider.
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00:00 Landing with Flaps
02:50 Ground Roll Handling - Věda a technologie
I love watching your videos tim. These videos are super interesting and pretty helpful because i have never flown a gloder with flaps and want to know kind of what they are all about. Thank you!
Glad you like the vids, cheers!
Thanks Tim. Your additional graphics were really helpful in getting the points across. The runway alignment markers and the heading indicator in particular were spot on👍 I have never landed a flapped glider and had not appreciated the difference flaps make to the landing run. 👏👏👏
Thanks Adrian, glad you enjoyed the video
Think about a PIK 20. I had 90degree "airbrakes" (it was considered a standard class early on). Of course I would go to minus brakes (flaps) on takeoff roll and then to zero and then plus (a little) to finish the tow when the altitude was sufficient. But landing with full 90degree flaps was and adventure in descent. It felt like straight down and the flare like mad. I felt like I could simply slide out of the nose of the glider. But I'm sure it was never more than about 40-45degrees. It was impressive to do and to see. But you could get that thing down when you needed to. If I added some slip it was even more impressive.
Hi Tim
Great Video - In france usually the recommendation is to do normal landings using the "Landing" flap. Once you are confident that you make the runaway and are stabilized in final, then you put on landing flaps. The reason here is so that pilots get used to it under normal conditions - that way when they really need it one day, like for outlanding - they know how their gliders behave.
So we are encouraging "process" in a way. Normal landing => put on the Landing flap.
Of course as you correctly point out, if you have really strong wind then you can adapt and only use positive flap, or even zero .....piloting is about gauging the situation, but as I said we try to encourage good and systematic "practice". Final point, we also recommend people roll (whether during take off or landing) using negative flap for the reasons you mentioned (manoeuvrability/aileron control on the ground)
Thanks again for your videos!
Sounds very sensible, and yes that's basically what I do too! Cheers for sharing
I'm pretty far from flying a flapped glider, but from what I heard, people at my club rarely use the landing position, be it for takeoff or landing. They say the glider becomes too hard to control precisely I think.
It was really cool seeing you balance the glider against the wind while stopped at the end!
Hi Tim, in the German manual for the ASW27 or the ASG29 the L-position is denoted as "Landestellung" (= landing flap position), so it is not associated to "langsam" even though the flaps in L-position slow down the glider considerably. I noticed a difference in the technical flap design between Schemp-Hirth (Ventus, Arcus) and Alexander Schleicher gliders (ASW27, ASG29, AS33): SH uses a single flaperon control surface so the flap and aileron angle is the same across the entire wingspan while AS has flaperons split into an inner and an outer control surface. Although both are actuated by both controls, the inner flaperons are optimised for flap effect and the outer ones are optimised for aileron effect. In L-position the outer ones are even assuming a negative angle to avoid loosing aileron control during the landing approach.
That is interesting, yeah I don't know much about the Schleicher gliders, thanks for sharing!
If i'm not wrong, the ASW 20 has this as well. Both ASW 22 and ASH25 also have the L setting which result in a very interesting effect during final: both wing tips bend down a little. As an ASW 27 owner I can confirm that the mixer works briljantly. The ships turns into a different plane (the feel of a Ka-8b) and it can be landed on a poststamp with a very steep aproach. When comparing SH against Schleicher this is am often overlooked feauture.
The mechanical mixer to make that Schleicher design work is really fascinating.
Suggestion for future topic:
Not directly concerning flying. But, as being well rested and feeling good, when going in the air is a big part of safety, I guess it is.
Would you be willing to give us a tour of your van? It looks to be a well functioning comfortable living space. 😊
Hi you’re in luck! m.czcams.com/video/2U-31vUQQJE/video.html
@@PureGlide As I commented over there. That is one helluwa build! Jaw dropping 😃
Great video, as I have a flapped glider (LAK 17). I've often wondered what everybody does, and this it's helpful. My airport is near the ocean, and there's usually a strong crosswind component when landing. The runway is parallel with the ocean, so late afternoons the wind is always easy to west.. On downwind I use +1 , then +2 on base, and then when I'm halfway the runway I move flaps to L, which increases the steepness , allowing me to better control my flare. Most times I land before my aiming point 🙄, so I haven't figured it out completely. I guess I'm still learning after about 2 years of ownership. 😄 I've also landed with flaps at 0, but didn't like the shallow angle and speed. I like how the L flaps on my ship work, as the sink rate is huge. Love watching your videos!
Hey that's awesome. I haven't flown the LAK 17 yet, but there's one at a nearby club I've been meaning to try at some stage.
Paul - let's go soaring together one weekend. I've been using 10° lately (+2) over L for that very reason and I've had a reasonable result. Landing flaps in the 505MB results in running out of energy very quickly, which makes it a slam dunk touch down almost every time. I still haven't managed to touch the tail wheel first yet in L, because the speed drops faster than I can react to pull back to hold it off. It's very powerful. It sounds like the Lak is the same way. Let's go fly and have fun. It would be great to share the experience with you and the other way around!
Great video, that indicator on the right side was really helpful!
Cheers! Took me a good 5 minutes to make that!!
@@PureGlide every time I try to add some kind of graphics to a video… instant regret. It takes so much time and I’m never happy with how it looks. It seems like your tools are a lot better! What are you editing with? Was the flap indicator just an image overlaid?
Amazing content, hope to glide soon!
Good stuff, Ahhh G'Day Tim!
Thanks for another interesting video Tim, on a topic that is often debated.
On my Mosquito glider I would use +2 flap in normal conditions (no specfic L of landing setting on that one), and +1 in very turbulent conditions.
Because of the trailing edge brakes, changing flaps to negative during rollout is tricky, as you risk the airbrakes then shutting and the glider bouncing up again.
However the clubs ASW-27 is much easier, as it has a specific L / Landing flap. And on this glider it is recommended to use that in crosswind conditions, as the ailerons actually move up in the L setting, vs droop down in the +1 and +2 settings. So the L setting actually gives you better roll control than the +1 or +2 gliders. AFAIK that is specific to Schleicher gliders from the ASH-25 onwards.
So as you said, do consult a instructor or at least RTFM (read the flight manual)
Interesting, thanks for sharing. And yes definitely different for different gliders. First step is to read the manual for it!
@@PureGlide ....flight manual?! 🤔 😂
I'd love to see you review gliding in the 40th Aniversary Edition of Microsoft Simulator, which will be released in a couple of weeks and includes gliders and thermals.
Yeah I’d love to try it!
Tim, Landing translates to Landung in German! 😊
:O that changes everything! maybe
L stands for Landeanflug und Aufsetzen according to the table of similar type SH glider.🙂
Interesting!
However as you mentioned in the vlog landing configuration can vary between types and should be observed in the flight manual.
Another informative video. I would like to hear your thoughts on flap and airbrakes at start of an aerotow. I see german videos such as from Stefan where they start an aerotow with airbrakes out. In my days in the 80s this would have been a no no.
Yes this is commonly done on some gliders to help with aileron control at very slow speeds. I used this on the non-flapped Discus quite often. It's only for the beginning of the ground roll.
Another very interesting video. Thanks Tim.
I am surprised to hear that the most efficient flaps position on the ground is -1 and not 0. I would expect the ailerons to have a greater travel in 0. Am I wrong ?
Good question, the manual says for take off use a negative flap for control reasons, so it must work better than 0!
Yes, L means Landung
Thanks!
weird for me to watch such a shallow angle and height on base to final. powered aircraft would be much higher. very cool to watch and hear about it this way though.
get rid of that silly engine thing and then see what steep is!
So you crab while on final. Do you slip at all to straighten the nose while keeping the wing down like we do on powered? I'm guessing your wings are much closer to the ground when landing which might prevent that.
Yip, we often slip in gliders, but yes straighten out before the wing clips the ground :) can do either crab or slip
Hey Tim, I’m just wondering why the ailerons are less effective with positive flaps?
Does the Ventus have flaperons, or are the flaps just mechanically linked to the ailerons?
Yeah they are flaperons. I was planning to show that in the video, but the glider is in the trailer! Maybe another time
Tim, how much do the different flap settings affect your stall speed?
Quite a bit, that’s the point of them, they allow slower speed. I haven’t tested how much, I’ll have to try it!
but where is the wind?:D that was a spring breeze at most :D
Ha yes we’ll down at ground level it wasn’t too bad. About 15 knots or so at a guess, but a bit gusty
Question from someone who isnt a (glider) pilot. How can you keep the glider balanced with negative flaps when you are stationary? Is the wind enough to give you control or does this also work when there is no wind due to some internal balancing mechanism?
It's just wind. When there are quite strong ones in the strip axis, even heavy 2 seaters without flaps can hold level
Yes it was the wind over the wings
@@PureGlide @widnyj Thanks for the replies. Love the videos.
How do you set your flaps when you're cruising at high speed ?
That's reasonably simple: I have an indicator ring on my airspeed that shows for a specific speed which flap setting is optimal for my current weight. So I just follow what that says. Anything above 78 knots is -1, and anything above 92 knots is -2 roughly.
The other left.... ;)
I do that often :)
@@PureGlide Great annotations of the airfield, runway, wind direction & flap position.
Note to self: Do not sideslip with landing flaps
Oh why not?! I need to try it
@@PureGlide Because it veered off in the wrong direction, not the best of ideas on short final. Probably should have practiced that a bit higher up. Not sure if I was using the airbrakes at that time. It was in a Ventus 2C.
Yes you have to straighten up before you touch down!
Ну и к чему такая тактика посадки с боковым ветром??? Терять высоту, когда её не так много и ты ещё не на посадочной прямой просто глупо. У земли ветер может поменяться как по направлению, так и по силе. Может перед полосой и нисходящий поток быть. Самое оптимальное решение подходить к к посадочной прямой с запасом высоты и на глиссаде её можно стравить, выпустив интерцепторы, закрылки и применив скольжение в сторону ветра. Выравнивание и выдерживание нужно в этом случае совместить и пробег сделать минимальным(с боковым ветром он опасен). Если до места парковки далеко, нужно диспетчера на аэродроме(руководителя полётов) запросить о переносе предполагаемого расчётного места касания ВПП(посадка с перелётом).