The Perils of Coin Auctions
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- čas přidán 18. 01. 2024
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Ben The Coin Geek
Old Pueblo Coin
Sometimes when looking on Ebay past sales I’m amazed that certain coins randomly go cheap. Just have to be right place right time.
Thank you for this sobering story really appreciated your candid honesty and always keeping it real about the the coin market
Hey Ben! Appreciate the honesty and the knowledge! Hope everything is going great with the set up of your coin show and have a great time tomorrow!
Bought MS-65 PCGS Morgans over 35 years ago for $365 each...they had advanced even higher price levels in late 80's....think i have a few more years to break even! You are not only person to lose in the coin game, just one of the few to admit! Great Podcasts!
those will break even in year 2034
Great video! That buyer at $7800 might not have bid any higher than $9 or 10K. You had been warned that others only thought the coin was worth $11 or 12K since you mentioned that there were other 68's and a 68 plus coin as well. It was not really a top pop! Live and learn. Be well! Ed
Ouch, that's a rough one. I really do appreciate you sharing though, so us commoners know we're not the only ones who have similar experiences.
That's what Dave Ramsey calls "being stupid with zeroes on the end". We all live and learn. That's one of the pleasures of life to rise above the challenges. I feel you recounting this story here will help thousands avoid getting stuck in this way. I appreciate you biting the bullet for all of us so we can learn by your experience. Now I have to go buy a coin off your site so I can give back!
This is one of your most informative videos in recent years, Ben.🤓 Simply let your subscribers know in advance when you place an expensive coin ($5,000+) in an auction in order that we can bid it up so you can have fun by not getting hosed. 🤔 😲😳😬 🤣😂🤣 And I like how you repeatedly say this is a fun area to collect, or this individual coin is fun; yes, no doubt it is fun for the dealer (or seller) who is profiting on the transaction. ⚾️⚾️⚾️
ROGER, The LOS ANGELES DODGER
Ben, I think you nailed it with the "buy a coin that you really like" statement. That is honestly what matters if you are in the hobby purely for collecting. If you are seeking an investment then that is a bit different. That being said, it really is the simple, buy what you like.
The market is coming down for sure but auction results can often not make any sense. For what ever reason there was only one person at that auction who wanted that coin but I'm sure you never thought the market would be that thin. I had one recent positive experience as a buyer where the auction was 99% silver stacker lots but there were 3 lots of bust era coins - there was no bidding on them to speak of and they hammered for about 50% of what they should have. Made me think that when you are selling your coins to get them in the right auction so the right buyers are there. I was even there kind of by mistake.
You make a great point. Sometimes the coins get overlooked. I won several fantastic coins at an auction featuring Colombian and Ecuadoran coins from the El Dorado sale. Not only there was an abundance of fantastic coins allowing the buyers to be super picky but also 2 coins I bought were wrongly listed as 2 Pesos. They were the much scarcer 2 Escudos denomination. I paid about half of what these coins would have commanded in other auctions.
@@williamgrimes668 There is a bit of cherrypicking in these cases too. You have the additional knowledge and also take the time to put it to your advantage. I've had times where I was sure I figured out something no one else did, only to see the auction price tell me there were several others who also did.
Listening to this reminds Me of trying to time The Stocked Market when You have buy and Sell.
I'm old school, I like collecting the coins RAW so that I can put them in the Whitman Coin folders
Thank you for sharing the highs and the lows
Ouch! That hurts! I stay away from auctions for the most part for how unpredictable they are.
You might have a bidder at an auction who is willing to bid high, but it does little good if there isn’t another bidder there to match him. But that’s all part of the game. If you have enough wins to even out your losses… and still turn a profit in the long run… then all is well.
Auctions with reserves tend to discourage bidding. Once people see there is a reserve, they know they won’t be getting a “bargain,” so they immediately lose interest. The key is to attract bidders first, then let them become emotionally invested in winning the coin… to the point where they bid more than they planned on.
Been playing around with Whatnot. Have noticed crazy bidders just bidding stupid like they have a gambling addiction or something. Decided it is a waste of time. Gambling like Vault Box. Better to just stack when funds are available.
Excellent video. You're discussing two related, but distinct pricing issues: rarity and auctions. More or less common coins have, respectively, more or less predictable prices. Auctions are about the seller's risk vs reward. Take a retail offer and "settle" for not knowing what the coin might have achieved at auction. Take a risk of a higher price in the auction and "settle" for whatever happens.
I appreciate your transparency- one of the multiple reasons I follow your channel.
Thanks.
It’s good for people to see all sides of the coin market/ecosystem
The owner on the 1913 v-nickel was Larry Lee-- he paid way to much for the coin when he bought it..He made most of his money by buying 100,000 shares of Carlos Slims mexican cell phone company at .10 a share.. (Slim became the richest man in the world for years..Sim build Pan American mining corp-- largest silver miner...,, Not from coin biz.. I knew LL quite well.. Early 1990's he talked an investor into buying 1000 1893-s morgans circulated.. Took him a couple of years buying them to reach the 1000 pieces, he told me he had made $150,000. then investor made him (how he didnt say ) sell the coins into the market--took him two plus years and he lost over a quarter million reselling the.. he had one anco case on his table with nothing but 1893-s morgan )1000 of a rare coin..
hint when you buy a 1000 coins-- they are not rare.. when you pay too much for 1 of 5 known and nobody cares .. yo loss money.. buy what you like but dont invest thinking you can tell what the market going to be 5-10-15-20 years later...
Yaaaaa!!!!!! A win for Buyers everywhere!!!!! ...... I mean, WOW Ben that really sucks! Just busting the Nards man, Auctions are soooo unpredictable.
Hi ben
Only the auction houses always make money with coin auctions. In 2019 I sold about 60 coins in order to buy 5 very high dollar coins. I lost some money on these coins however I bought those 5 coins for way less than I expected to pay. Overall I am happy.
Thanks for sharing all of the chaos that we go through… lol
I've been lucky at Heritage auctions. I enjoy throwing out low-ball bids. Especially when they stick!!
The better buy is the grade before the big jump on the grading company's scale..the working man's grade doesn't loose
A local business closed a couple months ago and auctioned everything through an online auction house.
Having a similar shop, I registered to bid when I saw the story and bid on a lot of items with a couple months remaining. A couple weeks later I got a bunch of ‘bid cancelled’ emails- that’s weird. A day later another email saying the computer servers malfunctioned and everyone’s bids were removed and please bid again.
I wasn’t going to spend the time to bid again….
But laying in bed the night before closing thought ‘how many others are not going to bid again?’. The next morning I went ahead and looked at the auction- barely any bids. I spent the next couple hours at the computer and ended up with a truckload of goods for a fraction of wholesale.
Great lesson on humanity
I feel so bad about the outcome of this auction for Ben. As a newby in the hobby and someone who loves the content I think I will join the channel 😁. Thanks for all the info you provide the community!
If I were you, I'd want people to know that I gave away a coin like that. It would generate more interest in your later auctions.
Even with cheaper coins, it's not that unusual to buy coins at auction that you can flip immediately for a profit. But you have to put in lowball offers on a LOT of coins, and that takes time.
Great video!
I know this video was hard to make-taking a loss like that. BUT, you have a purpose in that by helping others to understand the risk of placing items in an auction. Appreciate Cha…
I remember how hard the top pops fell like stones 5-8 years ago and I realized that's a segment a noob like me needs to avoid. That 1896 would sell for $7800 eventually it might take awhile. Unless you got in touch with that other guy, he'd buy it in a minute.
One of the biggest losses I’ve seen recently was on the 1965 business strike Washington quarter from PCGS That was graded a 68. It was bought early last year on eBay for $35. I believe sold at Heritage four months later for 11,000+. I would’ve had to of been the person who made that mistake.. it’s up there on the PCGS page for anybody else to check out
What a waste of 11K
Hi Ben. I agree with you when you say buy the coin you like - I try to that and even sometimes I may pay more because I really like the coin. I, like anyone else doesn't like to overpay but there are exceptions. Your video once again provides great information. Best wishes and I enjoyed the show but it took me a day to recover - - back and knees - LOL - don't get old!!!
Wow that 1896 story is not a good one obviously - I guess timing is everything - unfortunately there were not a few bidders that couldn't live without it. Hind sight is great like the Monday morning quarterback - yes a reserve would have been the wat to go.
Well your are great guy and your fortunes will come out in the end.
Best Wishes
Very insightful. In my experience auctions are the best place to get deals on coins. Coins often go for significantly less (10-20%) than if you were to buy outright through a dealer or eBay BIN. Coins with great eye appeal are the exception. Selling through an auction will get your coin sold in a timely manner.
I've gotten some very nice ms 65+ Morgan's for under 200$ that are just jaw droppers because I waited to the last sec to bid . I've also lost money on coins when selling . Not quit 4k but a loss is a loss .
But everyone will remember the vault box with the red cores…. Sorry for your loss Ben.
Auctions are wild and that really sucks 😭 I’ve been on both sides where I thought I found a gold mine coin (top pop at the time) that would bring at least a few thousand and barely made it to $700. I’ve also been blessed to find a Chinese dollar in an old album and have lots of people tell me it was fake and try to buy it, but after a couple tries of subbing and auctioning it went over 60k.
What China coin was it?
Part 2: the 20% vig is a killer with HA, Stacks etc ... GC is superior not to not with the 10% vig but their customer service is miles better
If you bid on high end material without viewing it in person or having a rep there to view it for you you're playing Russian roulette strictly relying on PCGS and stickers
After attending local and smaller auctions for the last 5 years I'd never go back to the big box stores again
That's why I always say something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay. The actual value of something is always subjective.
Have watched many auctions, but only to buy and hold - never sell. I'm very picky so i usually wind up paying over graysheet because other bidders love the coin also. Will probably lose money on the day of reckoning, but I'lll enjoy my purchase till then.
Confirmation bias and information bias (measurement bias).
I’m tracking with that
I started bidding on HiBid. About 70 percent of the items I won the bid were overpriced or not in the condition they said. Not to mention all the collusion and other problems. I'm sure high end Stacks and Bowers or Heritage are much better. The commission, fees, and shipping kill you.
Ya stay away from hibid it's all mainly 3rd party slabs with way overpriced estimates use great collections or heritage auctions
Thanks for the knowledge. We're ew to this, and any information is research to us before we start selling.
I've been to enough heritage and stacks auctions at the biggest shows and while they always get the finest consignments, if you're not searching for finest known or top pop, the better venue is to seek out local smaller auctions
In New England there are a handful of local auctioneers
I attend all the centennial auctions and down east auctions to name 2, and they get plenty of great material.
Steve Schofield is no slouch or small name. Schofield auctions is well known and reputable for decades in numismatic circles
He's always at the ANA Central States etc shows
The upside is it's the same 50-60 old men in the room every auction and they all wait for the Morgan's and bid against each other to the moon. So much more Centre catalogue ends up you going for 20-30c on the dollar
I'm sure it happens in other parts of the country too
I too had similar auction results on my medals collection. Some went higher than expected and I had top pops that didn't perform very well. You just never know how the market will react when it goes for sale. You win some and you lose some.
Top Pop modern coins are Crazy, Post 1960s
Big like number 404! Excellent video and thank you so much for sharing! Fabulously done
Sorry about the bath you took in that auction been. God Bless man.
Ben
God Bless the Old Pueblo
Hey man...That's happened to me here and there and it stinks. I have made some people happy by foregoing direct sales vs auctions at Great Collections, and a bunch of people have made me happy just the same.
"Keep your head up"
Tupac
Yeah, I looked at that coin a couple of times on your website and almost pulled the trigger... it was just that since it's a common date and someone finds a bag of those in a vault somewhere, all of a sudden population increases and those top end values go down. Sorry to hear about your luck, though... appreciate the honestly!
I once watched my penny start auction stay at a penny the whole time. Buyer felt so bad he sent me a couple records to offset my loss.
The key to a successful action: Have at least two people who want the coin and want to win. They must be present; either live or online. Otherwise, anything can happen. I have experienced both sides of this as a seller and a buyer. When I watch auctions, I see normally bids of 50/70% of retail prices (PCGS or NGC online prices). I know that this is a bit of a generalization, but this is what I have frequently seen for auction results.
Ben - It is unfortunate for this to happen to you and your business. Hopefully, the next one will be better. Thanks for sharing your recent experience. It is good for everyone to know what can happen with an auction - both good and bad.
But the trouble is, don’t know for certain if the two bidders are going to be there until after the auction starts
I’ll put low bids onto auctions all the time, it’s effortless, I fully expect to be outbid and that’s good - but once in a while an auction fails to get that last-minute sniper bid and I get something for cheap. And reality is, if I hadn’t placed that low bid myself, then the seller would have been forced to sell that item for an even worse number.
Did the coin fail at CAC? Many would assume so-since putting a CAC bean on it guarantees the much higher 68 guide price estimates…. Obviously you and other dealers have it in-hand and feel confident in the 68 grade … but its ceiling is still drastically limited without the bean.
Thats a big hit ben 😢
A while back My final auction that i put on my ebay was a half dollar i paid $375 for and it went for $137 I couldn’t believe it not my best day i decided yea no more auctions for me and it made me not even want to sell some of my coins i just want to keep them all at this point
Right place right time . Roll the dice .
Confirmation bias. Thank you!
Like first, watch later! ❤
Auction on ebay few months ago, a gold bullion coin is there I was tracking because up to the end, the high price was still ~$100 below what it should go for, at the last few minutes many bids jump in and the coin suddenly goes $200 higher (now at $100 higher than it should have). I don’t know what happened next but the following day this coin is relisted as a quick 1-day action and I am the only bidder and get the retail-friendly condition bullion coin for for about 10% under its melt value. Feel bad for the guy don’t know what happened on the first auction then no one bid the 2nd time around
There are more and more fake gold coins out there. I'd never buy gold on eBay unless I knew the seller well.
@@chrishebert5672 it's good for you to be skeptical, it's how I am able to snag good deals on the site - by doing the due diligence others aren't interested in, to confirm with a high degree of confidence that I will receive the genuine item. Have gotten several good deals below melt, and coins check out perfectly on arrival. Just a month ago an MS65 St Gaudins double eagle in a rattler was posted for 2% above its melt value - everything checked out perfectly with the seller doing my due diligence however while I was checking everything, someone snagged it. And by due diligence I mean things like confirming a long feedback history of selling high-value coins, has other high value coins actively for sale, etc. stuff like that.
Hi Ben...it's part of a "coins life" Your thoughts about small online auctions vs HA/GC. Thanks.
Well, that stinks. I don't really sell my coins but I'm sure I will eventually. Thanks for the cautionary tale!
We all lose money on coins
It's a volume driven industry
Auctions are a gamble
I got the good side of it with the 1896-0 barber half PCGS AU58 I made years ago (bought in an NGC58 holder for $1800 at the Manchester Nh Show). Took 3 tries to grade it as we cracked it and submitted to PCGS raw . They called it cleaned the first 2 submissions and the 3rd time was the charmed grade of 58
The timing was perfect as the population was zero (I made the first), barber half Everyman collections were on fire in 2010, and I had 3 or 4 guys begging me to sell them that could and was offered up to $8500 for it
Dave khans deal with heritage is 108% of hammer and he gave me 100% and kept the 8 as his cut
It hammered at $12500
The lesson is yes it's a gamble but if you pay attention to the variables state of the market etc you can make a better educated guess as to what a more likely to happen
I've won a couple where it went way below what it should have and the seller needs attention from ebay. I don't like online auctions, but love ones in person.
I can kinda relate. I just paid twice what an item was worth at an auction. Because I didn't have time to do my homework. 😢
And it wasn't cheap.
Hi CoinGeek Thanks for the vid and the info on top pop vs rare coins! I'm currently working on a group of graded coins that are lower mintage, but not considered rare. What's your position on that? They aren't rare, but the mintage is low enough that there aren't enough for all of us collectors to have one. Is that a good strategy for a collector? For investment?
Missing 8 shots in a row?! I would have stopped passing to you after 3.
Ouch, Ben. You're long overdue for a win on coins.
Tim for president oops wrong channel 😂
😂
Hey, Ben! Are you planning a trip to Las Vegas anytime soon?
You need the T shirt .I auctioned off my coin and I got was this T shirt
A bird in the hand…
Well done, pay your dime take your chances.
Whats the saying, a bird in the hand...beats the bush.
I have a question I'd love to get your opinion on. With CACG pushing the whole grading paradigm in a more conservative direction, is it even worth it now to grade common coins, like 1950s Philadelphia minted Lincoln cents, or modern tier coins, shooting for top-pop?
ben ~ thank you for your good work. My question revovles around buildling a dansco type set. I think it is the best grade no matter the date. Others have said to get the rarest of each coin, best grade you can afford. q1. When type sets come in do you always break them up? 2. why or why not. thx in advance, ben the typeguy
Thanks for this- I’ll try to tackle it
when if you do sell for any profit, you do know thats taxable income
Dang it! That stinks!
NINTH???
(PARTICIPATION TROPHY!) 😁
The market is shifting... a lot of things happening like this right now sadly.
I would never consider sending a money coin to auction if I could not declare a reserve. Period.
Well, Ben it may help you with your shops Tax bill this year?
😄Homer vs Ned Flanders. Homer gets into heaven before Ned and without much effort. After seeing Homer in heaven, Flanders said, "Apparently heaven is easier to get into than Arizona State." 😄
👍 🍯🐝🌻
OUCH!😢
Ben, we all have been there and lost. FIDO, BOHICA then move on. I will sat, stopped my ebay buys, going straight to a dealer.
Devastating.
Did you just smoke a spliff mon ?
Thanks for sharing this information Colorado Silverback777 Stay Healthy keep stacking ❤❤🎉🎉.
I sell on eBay some auctions are great some you get slaughtered.
the offer was too high probably
Ouch…sorry about the bath. We’ve all been there though, though perhaps at different price points.
Up where the air is that thin it’s all about the top registry players and who needs a top pop for that issue to rise in the rankings. It’s possible that the winner bid $15k+ but the under bidder just didnt show up for this one.
almost impossible to flip on heritage the fees taxes postage etc eat up any profits, bad way to make a penny
That SUCKS Ben! Sorry bud! Just think about ALL the other coins you made TONS of $$$ ON!
You got greedy.
Hi Ben. Late-night and early-morning auctions are best for the buyer. *------CLICK----->* 🦉 🔔