Loved the episode, absolutely amazing, glad to see so much love for it all over, but I have had some disagreements with people over how this eventually resolves. It is heavily implied that 14 becomes 15 in some sort of loop where the Bigenerated 15 is more mature and healed and just older when he steps out of 14, and how this will work. I think you are right, that RTD doesn't always know the answers to the things he makes, and that's part of the point because he knows lore nerds (like me) will fill in the gaps, and we can all be right, and we can all be wrong, which fits into the theme of the episode, either by design or by happy accident, but in the end it has people speculating and talking over and over about Doctor WHO. Which is his goal. To put Doctor WHO back on everyone's tongue, back in everyone's head, and in that way this is brilliant. That said, I'm a lore nerd and I want an answer!! 🤣 Still don't have an In WHOniverse explanation for the clothes changing from 13 to 14. Don't know if 14 can regenerate still. Does he become a Curator? Is he like The Watcher? Is he still going to outlive all his friends? Some people are worried 15 is just a clone, I saw that speculated. Does 14 re-merge with himself at some point, perhaps during the 13 to 14 regen so the healing is there to pass to 15 when he pops out? If 14 never re-merges with the other Doctor, if the loop is never made complete, then how does the therapy even work at all? Is the emphasis on healing and therapy undermined or cheapened if they don't re-merge somehow to pass it on, since that would just be cheating in a way an actual person suffering could never do, to skip beyond the hard work? These are the things I think about, and things I've argued about over the last week, and I just want to pass them on so you too can consider and speculate, and pontificate upon questions I dread we will never get satisfactory answer to. Happy Holidays!!
Does anyone else think Kate is going to release the master. Or at least someone at unit either accidentally or on purpose. I didn't realise until rewatching it that it looks like Kate's hand that picks up the tooth containing the master after the toymaker was defeated. I wonder who will be playing the master and which episode they will appear in next. If the master comes back do you think Tennant will be a special guest to help nsuti ?
I prefer to think of bigeneration as being the result of The Toymaker's domain. He declared ad hoc that the rules required him to face a new Doctor, but did they really? He may not be capable of cheating at games, but the game hadn't begun yet. Did shooting The Doctor constitute "unsportsmanlike conduct?" If so, the myth of bigeneration may have become reality as a technical foul against The Toymaker. The Doctors' argument that The Toymaker couldn't protest the consequences of his own actions would seem to support the Technical Foul theory. This would also simultaneously answer the question of how bigeneration worked as well as explaining why they don't revisit it again later.
I like this as an idea. I'm also a big fan of the loopback theory. Either way the explanation that it was only possible because of the toymakers domain would make the most sense.
14 won’t regenerate he can grow old. This is designed to explain the other doctors who are now older, and they still have adventures. That’s what big finishes all about and they’re not all within their timeline. They have new companions as well as the traditional ones so now it all makes sense as well as the curator and I love it I absolutely love it and there’s someone with cerebral palsy I cried when I saw the ramp because when I was five years old, I didn’t want to play G.I. Joe I was watching Doctor Who on PBS and I wanted to fly off in the Totis with the doctor now I can
@@coreygilmore301 While yes, it does explain the various Doctors growing old, they still eventually regenerate (properly) into their next incarnation. 15th Doctor is not a clone, he is the proper 15th coming after 14th. That means 14th will eventually regenerate into him at the end of his life, or in case of a fatal injury. 15th said a thing about them doing the "rehab" out of order, meaning he (as a former 14th) is already done with it and manifested to help the current 14th with it (remember it takes both 15th Doctor and Donna to talk 14th into the semi-retirement on Earth). And another clue is what RTD said about the "new" TARDIS. It's not a clone of the TARDIS, it's the proper TARDIS from a future time, the one, that 14th TARDIS will evolve into. So it's one TARDIS and not two, which also applies to the Doctor. One and the same Doctor, just in two places at once. Look at it as in Day of the Doctor, we had 3 incarnations of the Doctor and 3 models of the same TARDIS just from different time periods. What RTD meant about the other Doctors bi-generating at some point, is not in the "main" universe, each incarnation has its own universe, where only they bi-generate, coexist for a while with their next regeneration, even grow old in ideal circumstances, but eventually regenerate properly into their next incarnation to close the loop. It's not a multitude of Doctors running wild in the "main" universe, it's each Doctor separately bi-generating in their own universe, so there's a multiverse of Doctors and some of them might pop in from times to times. We only follow the main universe, where it happend to 14th Doctor. But even he has to eventually become 15th properly. Will it be soon? Will it be much much later? We don't know yet, but one day it will happen. Theories talking about 14th Doctor becoming the Curator are wrong, that's not RTD's plan at all.
@@coreygilmore301 The question that comes to me is will he or wont he grow old & not regenerate or will he continue on & then at some point regenerate into Dr 15.1? or something like that.
“I made a jigsaw of your history, did you like it?” If you think that’s not Russel saying “don’t worry about the timeless child, the doctor is whoever u want him to be.”
I think it's cool sci-fi fantasy how the bigeneration worked, set up during the excellent episode Wild Blue Yonder with both reminding the audience that The Doctor's is actually from a mysterious species and can go beyond the limits of the typical time lord, and invoking the salt superstition that allowed The Toymaker to slip in and bring myth into reality that could have also what allowed for the bigneration to happen. The 14th and 15th doctors teaming up to beat the Toymaker was fantastic and throughout the 3 episodes, everyone that didn't see spoilers was constantly dreading a sad goodbye for either Donna and/or 14, so it was such a relief and subversion that at the end of the 3 eps, both get to stay and with each other. I don't find "overusing" a particular actor to be a worry at all as an audience member and fan. What matters is the creatives behind the show crafting a good story and I'm on board for as many stories that David Tennant is willing to make as either as a lead or as a guest. It's truly special when an actor radiates love for Doctor Who as he does and he makes time between his busy schedule for special appearances. I will never, ever take that for granted.
I've just now realised that the "Love the moles" line was a reference to one of ten's first lines after regenerating, when he realises he has a mole between his shoulder blades and says "Love the mole!" .....
I know it was a bit of a throwaway line, and Russell T. has explained why he put it in, but I'm really surprised that no one is mentioning The Toymaker telling The Doctor that he "made a jigsaw out of your history". I immediately grabbed onto that line.
What did he say about the line? It to me says they can do whatever they want moving forward. "Doesn't matter what's happened, there's no rules anymore"
I can't find the quote anymore, but basically it's means that The Toymaker is responsible for various inconsistencies in The Doctor's pat, including him being half-human (in the TV movie), The Timeless Child, The Valeyard, etc.
Adric was NOT the only name drop....15 said "LOGOPOLIS"...that was the episode when Nyssa's homeworld TRAKKEN was destoryed and she found out the Master (played by Tony Ainsley) stole her father's body
Personally had been wondering what about these specials particularly made them celebrations of the 60th anniversary. But I think you can look at the them as a distillation of everything Doctor Who. Over the course specials we got a alien invasions, UNIT, exploration, horror and humour, and the doctor/companion relationship laid out, with a smattering of time travel thrown in. Basically, if you were jumping on to Who because it popped up on your feed on Disney+ and David Tennant was in it, and you'd liked him in Good Omens/Jessica Jones, you'd see exactly what the show was about and whether or not it was for you. But what if you got to the third episode, liked what you saw, but were put off by the 60 years of continuity? Well that's OK, because the 14th Doctor isn't just the latest Doctor he is *The* Doctor, an amalgamation of all the Doctors that have been, or more specifically, their baggage, their guilt. He's a metaphor, you see. The embodiment of the continuity. And what do you do with all of it? To make it Digestable? You Bi-generate it. you literally split The Doctor off from his Continuity. You leave all the history behind whilst moving forward into a fresh new era. But the history, the continuity, is still there. Intact and inplace. 15 and his future stories can tap into once people are familiar with him. And now, in universe, once a bit of time has gone by, the 14th has let go of his guilt is finally able to say "I'm ready to go" he returns to 15, whole again.
Spot on. On the other hand, I do worry they are going to disregard the Doctor's past. I like that the Doctor moves on but if the showrunnets ignore the scars completely, they take away from Doctor's complexity. Their very personality. Let's hope RTD and the scriptwriters find the right balance.
My only problem with the bigeneration is that it happened too quickly. In the past, the Doctor needs a whole episode to recover from regeneration. This time, the Doctor had just been shot through his body with a laser cannon and the bigeneration happens almost immediately and both Doctors are good to go! It just felt rushed.
It all depends on why they regenerate. Hartnell to Troughton seems to have been the only natural one. Though War Doctor to Eccleston looked natural too. Smith to Capaldi in light of recent storylines maybe should have been, but at the time wouldn’t have been. The strangest regeneration I’ve seen was Romana’s, as she was selecting what she looked like next.
I thought about that, but part of the weirdness comes from the flood of the regeneration energy. A bunch of it must've gotten burned off in the process of making a new body with new cells, while the remaining energy was split in half. Without as much energy wiring the Doctor up, he'd naturally be far less out of it
I think the 60th anniversary episodes where a bit of a wasted opportunity. Also with all the changes like bi regeneration it makes the whole of the original series redundant. This is a disappointment for someone who has watched who for the last 56 years.
So glad you mentioned Murray Gold's work here. There's a wonderful moment when Tennant's Doctor enter Gatwa's Tardis and his theme is played slowly except that after the first phrase (Dah-da-DAH-da-DAH-da) instead of descending in a minor scale (da-da-da) it resolves into a beautiful major chord. (DAH!!!). In musical terms this is a homecoming
One of the big things I consider about the bigeneration, outside the flux, is they were still in a "state of play" so the toymaker was making the rules wibbly wobbly. He was interacting with a current doctor and demanding the next, so I can sort of see how that forced both to manifest on regeneration
It's an old Timelord myth that had been brought into reality because of the events of the last episode. Did you also notice Unit place the Toymaker into a box of salt? And next episode is about goblins. The explanation for biregeneration is something to do with myths being made real. The question is, when 15 manages to resolve this situation, will he reverse the biregeneration. Timey wimey stuff
@dogblessamerica yeah, I feel the salt binding is relevant as it brought him into this universe and is now being used to "bind him".. I'm very curious how they'll resolve the "rehab out of order" thing, because 14 has to become 15 at some point for him to be ok, which leads into your theory as well. All I can say with certainty is 15 is going to be a hell of a ride! Side note, I really hope the toymaker isn't banished for eternity as he's an incredibly good villain from a "we can do whatever we want" perspective
As an American it was extremely well known in my early high school days. Every girl sang & danced to that song. When a teacher assigned us to change the lyrics to songs to match our history lessons & perform them, the only one I remember decades later (besides mine) is the group that did Spice Up Your Life with lyrics about the fall of the Soviet Union.
I prefer the loopback theory. 15 is a future version of the doctor who was born at a later date but the toymaker forces 14 to regenerate before he is supposed to. The universe has to correct this by bringing in the next doctor earlier than intended. Fourteen lives out the rest of his life with the nobles and after they pass he lets go of this incarnation. He becomes Ncuti and he's dragged back to the events of the giggle. Either way, bigeneration is a pretty bad concept IMHO. The show's theme is about death and keeping around another doctor kind of negates that. But hey, it is what it is. If 15 is truly split from 14 then that is that. But still, it's a baaad idea. Rtd's gotta let tennant go.
I don’t mean imply that you’re a fan of bigeneration as a whole, but it’s phenomenal how much effort lifetime fans of the show have to put into explaining this event for it to make a smidge of sense. I appreciate your effort but this still really doesn’t work for me.
@@harrykirkham220 this is what happens with literally everything in this show. We're given weird nonsense and have to make sense of it, par for the course.
So the totally empty TARDIS has a jukebox now. Anyone else want to see Ncuti accumulating more and more *stuff* throughout his run, at least one new thing each episode, until the new TARDIS ends up looking like a junk shop by the time he regenerates?
We HAVE kinda had a Bigeneration two times before - The first not with the Doctor but with Cho-je and Kampo (they called it a "projection") and then in Logopolis with the Watcher - Not the same effect per se but kinda the same idea but sort of in reverse.
The bigeneration made perfect sense to me - we know the drs regenerations seem to be linked to their state of mind, and at this point the Dr needs to stop but also can't. So the Dr splits. And the new version benefits from the stopping because timely wimey whatever. Also maybe 14 ends up becoming the museum creator from the 50th?
For this episode, for this Doctor, I'd say yes, but I don't think it should be a recurring thing. I think it might take the wind and urgency out of future regenerations.
For those confused how two Doctors can exist at the same time…I mean…technically there are 15 Doctors in the universe at any time anyway. Since they all can travel throughout time and space. Not that complicated to me.
@@judithstrachan9399 it’s only the last few years where I’ve truly noticed good music in cinema and tv. It goes a long way for me personally. Harry Potter and Doctor who will always have my favourite music.
Regarding the bigneeration and end of 14... YEah I think what 14 is experiencing is the long way around a 'fixed time loop'. When he is done and regenerates into 15, he will become Ncuti and then be pulled through a rift of sorts into this episode. And if some of the other media that has been altered to include Ncuti (see Adventures in Space and Time) then they've already shot Ncuti's part of that moment, and either have shot an older madeup tennant or will much later on (probably did both) to have it on the hard drive, waiting for I don't know how many decades to finish the loop on screen. BEcause now we're waiting for it. YEs 14 is doing rehab out of order, that's why when 15 shows up, he's good.. because he's the product of what happens when the doctor is recovered.
I honestly believe that bi-regeneration has been hinted at before. it would go a great way to explaining Tom Baker as The Curator in the 50th anniversary special. At the time, it was played off as just a humorous scene between Matt Smith's Doctor and an actor who used to play The Doctor, but watching that scene now takes on a whole new tone. If you accept that bi-regeneration is a thing that happens, at least occasionally, then a lot of the banter between the two makes more sense. The instant recognition between the two, why Tom Baker comments that Matt might become a curator someday, why some of the old faces might turn up again, but only the favorites, and so on. Perhaps the bi-regeneration thing is something that has been floating around in RTD's mind for years.
Yess I thought the same ! I was always so confused by this scene with tom baker, because it really fellt just like a scene done for the fans, without it making really sens (which is fine because it's doctor who and nothing makes really sens, but still a little bit out of nowhere) Now I can look at this scene and think yep, that's a thing.
@@marmac83 Funny / humorous - same/same. Why would you respond like that? What’s the purpose of the first part of your comment, other than to be needlessly belligerent? Why not just say “yeah it was funny but I think it was also serious”? Ironic given one of the key themes of this episode.
It was NOT played off as just a humorous scene. It was a huge shock, and had massive lore implications and set up the whole search for galifrey and the fact that the doctor might eventually revisit some old faces when he regenerates
as someone that was completely spoiler free and blocked everything on purpose. I loved the bigeneration. I was elated and it was very unexpected, after the episode ended i just ended up being like, im happy he gets to finally have a reward and yet the fun adventures also continue. Though personally id hope that, like 15th said, its just rehab the wrong way around, and 14th does timey-wimey and becomes 15th after the break, but even if it doesnt happen, its a fun new idea that has the potential for new writing avenues and stories that would not be possible otherwise.
Anybody else find it adorable Ellie's love of River Song? OK, she wasn't the only one in this world that loved and yelled in glee when River was referenced. River deserves the importance of her role acknowledged and referenced in the many Doctor's lives.
Hearing you guys talk about the Timeless child plot, I think we can also think of it as they were just regenerating beings, but William Hartnell is the first to call himself the Doctor when he ran away with the Tardis. I'm choosing to believe that as my head cannon.
The thing that I love the most is that we had an actual happy ending. I think we all can use some healing at this point in our crazy world. Ncuti's Doctor emerged fully realized and self-aware. No confusion like we see with most regenerations. Now Ncuti can start his journey lighter. I think this is a great energy for Gen Z moving forward. A very hopeful beginning. - Also, my theory is that these bigeneration splits allow for the Curator and others. I think these were the Doctors that were trapped in the Edge that have been released to grow old and can't regenerate as they are no other the prime Doctor.
I look so forward to you guys having these with every new episode! So glad Ellie is feeling better! I can’t add much to the comments that you all didn’t already say because I agree with everything you said about this episode! What I can say is having cerebral palsy and being wheelchair bound, I can’t tell you the overwhelming feeling of joy that I felt when I saw a ramp on The Tardis! One of the greatest moments of my life!
I could totally see bigeneration playing out in season 1 ending with The Master using that to create an army of different Master versions by trying to steel bigen from 15 causing them to purge it removing that as a deus ex.
The one big advantage I can give you, Ellie, is that keeping the 14th doctor around finally adds some continuity to the first time The Doctor and River Song meet. Because now we have an older version of the 10th doctor in the 14th, River's comment about how The Doctor "looks so young" can make sense. If the 14th has an adventure with the River Song between the events of the singing towers and the library, one without Donna but instead maybe Rose, she'd recognise his older face but not Donna.
Yes, but it would likely have to have happened before the Singing Towers because she didn't recognize 12's face & that was the last time she saw him before the Library. Maybe one of her adventures during Stormcage or after being Pardoned (so between 11 & 12).
What?? This is completely unnecessary, her saying he looks young already makes perfect sense. The last time she saw him he was literally more than twice as old
Bigeneration is either pointless (they ignore it to keep with 15) or a distraction (split time between 15 and 14). I really have issues with it from either side. RTD’s it happened to all of them is such fanfic
idk, nobody is talking about how kate told the unit agent to bind the toymakers box in salt, I think the doctor retroactively made the salt superstition actually work to defend against otherworldly entities, like before it was just belief/myth, now its science/fact.
Something I cought on the second viewing of the episode. When they're all back in the tardis discussing if Tennent should stay with Donna. Someone asks Ncuti "Why are you ok with everything?" Ncuti says "you're doing therapy out of order, I'm fine because you are taking time off..." Always wibbly wobbly timey wimey! Love it!!!!
I picked up on that. It’seems to me a fairly strong implication that 14 will eventually merge(?) back into 15 (& possibly be straight back at the UNIT tower with 14 & the Toymaker).
10:20 at some point in the past, we had no Regeneration. It was never talked about... but now no one complains about this thing called Regeneration being odd or such. What is more odd is that we only had 1 non-male Doctor and no non-human looking ones despite that being possible. Though I know why they are doing the human looking Doctor.
I'd love if after Ncuti we got a super moody, edgy, pissed off goth Asian female Doctor. She'd be entitled, "finally it's my turn! Why have I been so bloody nice?! I've got notbing to show for all that effort except trauma." But then a random dude saves her when she's distracted or still regenerating so there's a play off his generosity and her wanting to be prickly and stop making friends, but everybody just thinks she's joking when she says something insane. Would be awesome if they regenerated into a familiar alien temporarily for a special. A Doctor Dalek would be a treat
My own theory: as the Bigeneration is due to the Toymaker power, both 14 and 15 will live their own adventures separately, maybe crossing path here and there. His legion are out there as he mention, therefore the story did not end, the game is still on. Once the Doctor(s) finally close that chapter, and likely the final would be both together, the evolution of both 14 and 15 at that time will merge back as the power of the Toymaker run thin and that will be the end of the path of 2 doctors, regenerating into 1 with both memories.
This is the only channel for which I have notifications turned on.. and for good reason. Question: have you guys seen Christopher Eccleston's recent comments about what it would take for him to return? If so, thoughts?
This is the way. Responding to your edit: Yes we have, and his comments don't really tell us anything new - we've always known he had a frosty relationship with the producers on Series 1.
He seems to really like Moffat, though. If RTD goes in a couple years and Phil Colinson goes with him, there might be a chance.. seeing as the other two he mentioned (as far as I know) are already gone, having started Bad Wolf.
@Domino2097 I was wondering about that..I didn't see them credited, but maybe i just didn't look hard enough. But yeah, that does make sense. Thanks for letting me know!
Considering the 15th doctor was the one who told everyone about bigeneration and knowing what the 14th doctor should do, its very well supported that when 14 eventually dies after his break on earth he will be pulled back to the moment of bigeneration as 15, making it an infinite loop and continuing the story from 14 but just doing a timey wimey time jump.
I also saw a really great theory that Ncuti's Fifteenth Doctor went through all of the rehab and rest that Fourteen is going through now. All the Toymaker did was bring that forward. So to close the loop, this theory said that Fourteen won't regenerate again, he'll just die and turn into regeneration energy that Ncuti or another Doctor will eventually absorb because his regeneration happened out of order. So all the family dinners with the Nobles are memories that Fifteen has. The Doctor’s bi-generation means that if Michael Sheen ever played the Doctor (hopefully as Sixteen) then Sheen and Tennant (as Fourteen) can share the screen. And honestly, at this point, I think that would be the only thing I would ever want David to come back for. Put Tennant's incarnations to rest. That theme for Fifteen that Murray Gold wrote is also phenomenal! It's been in my head all week.
And then the next time they see each other Tennant kisses Ncuti on the forehead for one more allons-y before rejoining together. Give me full fanfic levels of hopium
I still feel it is a bit unfair to Ncuti to do the split. Yes, I get Tennant fans but I still feel if you watch Doctor Who you have to accept regeneration and the actor is going to leave. It might be a business decision but how would you like to start a job and have the person who left but came back is going to be kept around just in case? Do like the idea of maybe 14 may eventually just fade away like the Watcher from Logopolis. That or he goes evil and becomes the Valeyard. If it is overused you're going to get that 14, Tennant, is the real Doctor. People will keep wanting the real one back.
The Eleventh Doctor said ten years ago: "I could retire and become a Curator", and that's exactly what the 14th Doctor did. He retired. And also, he revisited an old face, and a favourite one...
@@sabrinatirabassi3529that just head cannon it just Russell telling is David is the center of the show and he is going to keep making him more version of the doctor and as someone pointed out they could almost successfully do a remake of the 5 doctors with David alone now that he is 4 versions of the doctor
As an American that had to learn choreography for a debutante ball that was set to Spice Up Your Life I must protest this notion that we don’t know or get the magnificent glory of the Spice Girls and that song! 🎶”Hai Si Ja! Hold tight!”🎶 😜
We might get Short Who's and Long Who's, like short Treks and Long Treks Which means a Long Who of the Fugitive Doctor regeneration in, then, quick life summary, then retirement, to forced regeneration into a young William Hartnell would be a great story
One tiny bit of detail that I liked was the fact that they added a throwaway line of putting the toymaker's box in a secured vault " *surrounded by salt* ". And I think that's another brilliant aspect of "evoking myth at the edge of the universe".
i think that Tennant should show up on occasion in the UNIT spinoff, he's basically stuck on earth and just sitting around, no way anything can happen at UNIT that he doesnt know about anyway.
My take on how the Doctors move forward after bi-generation is that 15 carries on as normal with the ability to regenerate, while 14 continues to live but without the ability to regenerate again and therefore does die eventually. That gets around all the arguments about how many Doctors there can be - if every Doctor could split and then split again, then eventually you'd get a universe populated just by the Doctors.
I know, right?!! It was my first concert. My friend even dressed up as Ginger Spice. We didn't meet until a decade later, but we went to the same arena to see them down in San Diego in....1998/9 (?). We bonded over that.
Interesting. I'm also the same age an NPH and American and I DIDN'T know the song, either. Then again, I was a gothy punk in my mid 20s not listening to popular music, so it could've been that.
Totally agree that 14 will eventually regenerate into 15. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already filmed Ncuti's half of the regeneration which sees him instantly warp (or whatever terminology you want to use) into the bi-generation.
I always thought it would be interesting if the doctor regenerated doing a crisis and the way the did it hear was fascinating until they added the bigeneration twist. I had to watch it a second time to appreciate it. I went into this episode thinking it’s sad this is 14 last appearance and wishing we could get a few more episodes but after watching the trilogy I am happy with it.
Tennant will definitely be back, they'll have to resolve the two TARDIS. I think she'll ask him to go somewhere that happens to align with Ncuti and happens to be a necessary sacrifice so he would have a definitive ending
I know its not the exact same thing but i have zero issues with bigeneration, we had the doctors daughter episode where he was cloned and she regenerated at the end of the scene showing a clone of him could regenerate too.
In 'Wild Blue Yonder', when The Doctor tried tricking the Not-Things with the salt at the edge of the universe, and The Doctor's double was not tricked, this was the catalyst for breaking the barrier between the world of myths and legends and our world. This explains how The Toymaker was able to set himself up on Earth instead of him staying in his own realm, and how the 'myth' of bigeneration became a thing. The Toymaker only folded up as he had lost and always respects the rules, but the salt will no longer bind him. The Toymaker also warned that his legions would be on their way, hence the goblins coming in 'The Church On Ruby Road'. I do have a feeling that the musical set pieces we are seeing are a foreshadowing of another mythical being, The Music Maker' as played by Jinkx Monsoon.
Here's my theory how they can resolve 14's ending and becoming 15 due to the Bi-generation based on events from the past series. Stage 1: 14 lives a long life in retirement, when he "dies" because he used his regeneration already, he dies. Stage 2: His body breaks down into the fixed energy stream that we saw occur on Trenzalore in 11's episode arcs. Stage 3: Given time, that energy stream starts to coalesce into a "ghost" like being (the watcher from 4th doctor's story) made up of pure energy, left alone, it would eventually reconstitute into a child's body, however.... Stage 3A: If a Doctor enters that "Watcher's" time stream, they reconstitute together. That might be one way to address the issue, based entirely on what has already happened in the show's long history.
OK. this is going to be my theory. I apologies if its already out there but it occurred to me naturally. Be prepare to be both dazzled and confused with a huge pinch of salt. Theory - Bigeneration is the norm. Each time the Doctor regenerates it is a bigeneration with an older and a younger self. We have been followed the links in he chain of each older form of the doctor. The reason we never see two doctors from the same bigeneration is that the universe naturally creates two quantum states one for each doctor. effectively a ne timeline branches off for each generation. The reason we have two doctors from the bigeneration is because the toymaker was in close proximity. As a powerful being from outside our whoniverse it prevented the creation of two quantum universe states trapping both versions of the doctor in one quantum timeline. This is where it gets bigger. As a further thought the reason the timeless child never seemed to age when seen on screen but stayed a child is because Rassilon was able to keep the younger version allowing the older verison to go. Making a branch of bigenreations from the original timeless child. The doctor is and isnt the timeless child at the same time, he is branch off the original child (could this explain the memory loss before the 1st doctor?). Maybe, just maybe the Master fascination with the Doctor is because he also a branch off the original timeless child. Two branches off the same tree. dazzled, disgusted or confused do let me know.
I've been watching Doctor Who from the start. It wasn't one of the best episodes but it was a good one. However, Neil Patrick Harris's portrayal of The Toymaker was absolutely brilliant. And whoever decided to cast him in the role is a genius. He certainly deserves another story or two in the future. Imagine a three way ep involving The Doctor, The Master and The Toymaker?
The Ramp is called Tharries Ramp on Set and it's a nod to the Whoutuber Tharries who was on the premiere of the giggle and Russel revealed to him, that he was the reason they added a ramp to the tardis, which I love and it shows how even 1 fan can have a influence on the show...
I love the addition of the wheelchair ramp and honestly. Can't think of why anybody would have a problem with it. But it does Cause you to ask some other questions if you have a good memory. Like how did clara drive the motorcycle into the tardis if there was no ramp. I actually never noticed the step up before. I just always assumed it was pretty close to flush. Is clearly I was Is wrong. But irregardless of any continuity issues I think it's a nice Addition. Also I wonder if anybody thought of the fact that because there is now a ramp they're going to actually use it. Which means we're gonna have that character probably show up more often.
Also, the old school TARDIS console room (aside from the secondary console room in S14) was usually flat without any ramps -- those came in the new series starting with RTD. So, it was technically theoretically accessible in Classic Who too.
I've always thought the idea of bigeneration has always happened in every universe with every doctor for me still fits in with my lore. The toymaker influence (making myth into reality, the laws of play, anything is possible) caused the bigeneration and that indeed the toymaker more then a god effecting every universe every doctor every past and future. So while we might not see bigeneration for a while it is something that unseen is always happened. Also remember back in classic who and in lore Tardis can pass into other dimensions so yes for me this all fits and other doctors running into each other is more then possible. I can't wait tbh it be epic
I am 26 years old and British. Before this episode, I had genuinely never heard “Spice Up Your Life” before. Banging song though. Was immediately added to my playlist.
I like the bi-generation and "Doctor-verse" as well. It allows essentially every possible combination. You could have every doctor procees past-regeneration [scene], as if the regeneration hadn't happened. At the same time they can every iteration AS IF their regeneration happened, but not the next one. At the same time you can have the "pre-60th-special" timeline be as it was. This, as mentioned, has to be handled properly. Personally, I'm [more or less] "ok" with whatever they do - if done "not completely idiotic". Though of course... I would prefer a "non-canon-breaking" (and therefor in my opinion "canon-extending) way. And yes... this includes giving Ncuti his time to shine as "The Doctor".
I like the idea of this Doctor being the one who finally heals other Doctors. Wouldn't it be special if he visited an older one when he needs help and completes a cycle we didn't even know could exist? The Doctor healing himself and not just the universe
Ok when we find out that Wilf was not going to be in the episode I was glad to know, we need to know. I am GLAD that the 10th/14th Doctor got a Happy Ever After ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️. And that explains why it is season 1,a new beginning (USA) UK has this happened before is that why you only have X number of regenerations???????????. UK is this why
So personally I don't like the Bi-Generation. But it is a plot point that explains a lot of things. Like the Curator, the War doctor, and the Doctor Ruth. If there was a Bi-generation similar though delayed. There is a second 10th doctor in a another dimensions with Rose T. But they should not use this as a way to just to wing it.
On potential Tennant overuse: upon seeing the Star Beast, for the first time, i had, at least 3 bait and switch moments, where it seemed like something was being foreshadowed and it worked out completely different. From then on, i prefer try to not think i can predict what RTD2 is planning. I would HOPE that Russel has faith in himself, enough, to be confident that IF he brings Tennant back, again, he will do it well. He’s more than proven his abilities. Don’t fret.
They might use some scenes with Tennant in the upcoming Unit tv series. Donna just got a job with Unit. So the 14th would be an advisory role, along with the Curator, who is working with audio Unit
Hi! Had some time between the first two 60th’s to think and have emergency gallbladder removal surgery (from 2-4am) so saw The Giggle in Hospital just, just outside Chicago. I have to say this was one of the best Doctor Who episodes ever. Why? I was almost completely protected from spoilers, for one, and the pacing was just SO FAST, and the characterizations so rich, that this was truly a landmark episode of Doctor WHO. If I’m looking for a series comparison, I’d say this is on par with if not exceeds the entertainment value of Buffy the Musical which was an amazing and quirky episode of its own. (Oh to have SMG appear in Doctor Who as either Buffy or Daphne….) can you hear me Russell? Since we now have a Doctorverse, all things are possible aren’t they. Next, casting, NPH as the Toymaker was not good casting it was magnificent casting. He transcended every possible expectation I could have had. Nothing like bringing a full fledged Broadway star into an episode to really liven it up. If you’ve seen his performances at award shows you know he can do a lot, but this! Wow. Thunderous applause to all involved in the Final Cut. What lived in my mind however, is that tux wearing spin, the I am King of the Universe moment as the chaos just builds, builds, builds until it explodes. So great having David & Catherine back. Just wow. The one spoiler, other than casting which snuck through the week before was that Wilf would not appear in this episode. So the Wilf is off hunting bit was greatly appreciated and was hilarious . RIP Bernard Cribbens (Wilf salute). As someone who’s one of the thousands whose played Charley in Charley’s Aunt, I appreciate classic comedy elements when I see them, which to me means using repeating subtle elements of comedy that need not be there but are there because real vets can imagine them. That was Wilf’s mole hunt to me. Even better, it brought tears too. So, as someone who’s trying to work his way out of his wheelchair for trips over 100 yards outside, I do appreciated the wheelchair ramp in the T.A.R.D.I.S.!!!!!!!!!!! Even with the curb cuts and ramps brought to the streets of the US, there are still many places that are literally dangerous to travel by chair. My one excursion out in a chair via Uber, CTA and Metra, I fell twice and had to be pushed up a long high ramp by a stranger (people are really nice here to the disabled (usually)). My point is, seeing that ramp in the Big Blue Box was perfect. It didn’t hurt that I loved the actor who shed important light on another topic: people in wheelchairs may well be able to temporarily stand, which means they are trying/working/hoping to get out of their chair and are not using it as an opportunity to get privileges. It’s also humbling for a 6’2” person to shrink to 4’2 or whatever while seated. I do look forward to heat seeking wheelchair launched missles in the future! I despise spoilers as I’ve been watching Who since the 1970’s and they just get in the way of great surprises and twists. So I’d gone into NCuti Gatwa’s appearance without a clue as to his actual performance ability. Wow! He got off with a bang, or Bi-Gang… (see what I did there?) Knowing that the next series or however was in amazing hands put the plum on top of the pudding! So, I loved it. Loved Mel’s appearance and Unit (just rewatched/listened to) Nicholas Courtney’s first episode as CLS and was so glad to see KLS back. So glad. Finally, perhaps NPH’s amazing performance will attract other talented actors to cross the pond for the occasional villain or character? NPH’s performance and the whole amazing lift and description of the episode to my nurse who had been a classic who fan but fell away because kids and COVID, that she just might come back into the fold. Who nose who’s next to be drawn to try out the show again or for the first time? Who knows??? ❤
i appreciate you guys. I may not agree with everything you say, but your openness and willingness to present a positive and educated perspective out strips any other of the commentators. You know lots but don't claim you're the experts to end all experts.
If anyone wants to reconcile The Timeless Child with The Doctor's timelord heritage, you can make it your head canon that: 1. The Doctor suffered a lot over not knowing where they came from 2. The Master always has it out for The Doctor 3. Time travel is super canon in this universe It's very possible for The Master to go back in time, pick up a random child from Gallifrey and placing them under the vortex to be found in the past. It means the time lords are a paradox but The Doctor was born on Gallifrey. You can also hand-wave away the extra regenerations by accounting for the war doctor's forced regeneration not counting, and then the extra regeneration energy given to the 11th. Or maybe The Master did something to The Doctor before wiping their memories to uncap the regenerations. We never see the child emerge from another universe after all.
Here's the one thing I can't get around. Any crisis that occurs on earth 14 would not sit by and watch it happen so they would meet all the time right??? Or am I misunderstanding something?
I like the idea of it, just not for the Doctor. What always used to be great is that the Doctor wasn’t really a ‘special’ Time Lord, just one with a TARDIS and ambition to see the universe. Recently DW has been turning him into this character who’s god-like not because of what he does, but because of his DNA. Plus the nature nature of time travel means that multiple Doctors can crossover with each other (e.g. the 3 Doctors, the 5 Doctors and then the 50th special). And it’s not confusing because we know it’s the same person but at different points in his life. Now I’m if they do it’s unclear whether it’ll be from 14th body or 15th’s. It’s a cool idea but opens a can of worms for the Doctor and then going forward. It would be a cool idea to explain how the Master has also come back after clearly dying multiple times.
I think Good Omens season 3 has been announced if I read twitter right. David is probably going to be busy with other projects for a while anyway. A UNIT spinoff with Donna and family with sometimes cameos of 14 might not be bad if they did that.
Loved this episode, and I personally subscribe to the idea that, kind of like the Watcher a little bit, The Fifteenth Doctor sort of popped back in time early, etc. etc.
Love the video the only bad thing is and u did this in Ur up and down video is where was the mention of the Sarah Jane name drop I love river but Sarah Jane I actually cried when 15 mentioned her she was such a huge part of doctor who and they finally acknowledged her passing in a episode
I like one interpretation I heard, 14 lives with the Noble Temples for a while, then he regenerate (for whatever reason) but again he gets an old face. This time it's the face of 4 and he knows exactly why and what he has to do, go back and become the Curator from the 50th anniversary.
20:48 The reason Neil Patrick Harris didn't have the same connection to Spice up Your Life isn't because he's American, it's because he wasn't a pre-teen girl when the song was released. Source: I was a preteen girl when it was released and I was jamming tf out along with him
I think Ncuti's regeneration episode will he a team up with 14 and once 15 starts to light up so will David and they will kinda merge to form the 16th.
I absolutely LOVED the Bigeneration! I didn't get spoiled so it was an absolute surprise and such a delight! I love that this timeline has two Doctors that coexist, and they are BOTH the Doctor. One is not more Doctor than the other. They are both The Doctor. The Tardis did not get copied, both spaceships are The Tardis. One does not supplant the other. The only difference is one is going to continue saving the universe while the other gets to rest and heal. But both of them are the same Doctor we have all followed and loved for 60 years, and both of them will continue to be the Doctor we all love. With myths becoming reality as the walls of the universe thin, the universe probably needs two Doctors. One can keep Earth in good hands during Donna's lifetime while the other keeps watch among the stars. As the viewer we will follow the one that is travelling the stars and saving the universe. With this being a Sci-fi show that has always been weird, off beat, and timey whimey, this totally fits. I love it!
now the "new branch" created in the bigeneration, can result in all the not well explaineds doctors, the fugitive dr, etc.. and then evolve into the watcher, to merge again in the original "branch" of the doctor when the 4th dies, in this case, the fugitive can be a past version, because comes before the 5th and also a future version, because is post-15th
There’s a difference between having a multiverse and altering the same timeline now claiming every single Doctor bi-generated as did their TARDIS. I get he wants an excuse as to why the actors have aged whenever or if ever he brings back a former Doctor, but there are easier, less canon altering ways like claiming they’re from an actual alternate universe. It comes off as ridiculous, convoluted, and lessens the impact of future regenerations. It also risks making the whole concept of bringing a former Doctor back if they end up turning it into an overused gimmick, which they may given RTD is trying to in a sense future proof it so it can be done whenever they want. I also don’t like the bi-generation being permanent as I feel they should have merged after the Toymaker was defeated. The 10th/14th Doctor waiting in the wings to swoop in and save the day when the 15th Doctor is overwhelmed feels like it detracts from Ncuti Gatwa and if that doesn’t happen in a situation we’ll be left wondering why especially given they even duplicated the TARDIS meaning he can show up whenever & wherever as needed for backup. While I loved NPH as the Toymaker I found his whole scheme massively underwhelming. A video that makes humanity crazy-er sounds like something any Doctor who villain could do and the Toymaker, a godlike being who can control & alter all of reality, ended up feeling like just another monster of the week. I was taken a bit out of the episode by the 10th/14th Doctor’s ranting about how evil humanity is. It felt utterly random, didn’t feel like it belonged, and was essentially victim blaming considering what was happening. It didn’t make any sense unless we chalk it up to the Doctor having a breakdown.
I think that's the whole point of it. I don't think Russell was meaning that this universe it has happened before, 15 even says that it hasn't happened before. However he is using the alternate universe idea to have an explanation for future crossovers with classic who doctors.
I feel like the bigeneration was caused by the Toymaker influencing the world with his powers even on a subconcious level. He gives the little puppet show of companion deaths since Donna was last with the Doctor, and each lived on somehow with that being "okay then!". That coupled with the gaming thrill of the idea of Best of 3, he focuses on the 3 with saying the next part will be in 2023. So maybe the number 3 bubbled away and cropped up again much like the conclusion of a certain Star Trek TNG episode involving a timeloop ending with the destruction of the Enterprise-D. So when he decides since games 1 and 2 were played with different Doctors and he needed a difference Doctor to play game 3, the idea of 3 and living after death formed into a reality of a 3 player game with the Doctor living after death like 3 recent companions. And while the next companions weren't featured in the puppet show (because they didn't die) it was a group of 3 companions for a lot of it. Add onto that the myths becoming realities with the salt line from the previous episode and Toymaker kills the Doctor with the idea of 3 allowing the bigeneration myth to become reality. On another general theory note - the idea of myths becoming reality that allowed the Toymaker to come into the real world - well the Doctor is a myth to a lot of people with the meaning of the word Doctor being based on stories of the Doctor themselves, so is it possible that the Doctor created themselves and brought the Timeless Child into existence to make real the myth of the Doctor and regeneration the myth of life after death?
I really enjoyed the 14th Doctor sincerely and often proclaiming how he LOVES such and such. The 15th even gets in a few! To see a David Tennant Doctor casually using the word the 10th just couldn't seem to spit out made me happy. 14 > 10
I fully understand the need to let the 14th Doctor rest. And I would NEVER want them to do anything to undercut Ncuti. He IS The Doctor now, and I am excited for it. But one idea I have heard that I like is that the 14th Doctor being split off in this way is how we could eventually end up with The Curator. That's a perfect way to do that. Also though, there is something that the 15th Doctor says that I would really love to see realized. In the Tardis he says to 14, "I'm fine because you fix yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." He is saying that somehow he is fine because of something that 14 hasn't done yet, but is going to do. So maybe once 14 does this rehab to overcome these traumas, he either merges with 15 again (or whoever is The Doctor by that point) or he goes on to become The Curator. But either way, I think they could tell some really beautiful and cathartic stories in showing some of that rehab the 14th Doctor will be doing. Yes, having a life. But since he also has a Tardis, maybe some travel that helps him face the traumas that have plagued them and move past those traumas. It would be a great way to revisit multiple eras of Doctor Who in a meaningful way and I feel like those episodes could be really special. It would also give us a chance to see the uncle/niece relationship between him and Rose as they travel. Because Donna will be working at UNIT. 🙂
Timestamps in the description folks! Let us know your thoughts on the bigeneration, the Toymaker, and The Giggle as a whole, and have a great weekend!
Loved the episode, absolutely amazing, glad to see so much love for it all over, but I have had some disagreements with people over how this eventually resolves. It is heavily implied that 14 becomes 15 in some sort of loop where the Bigenerated 15 is more mature and healed and just older when he steps out of 14, and how this will work. I think you are right, that RTD doesn't always know the answers to the things he makes, and that's part of the point because he knows lore nerds (like me) will fill in the gaps, and we can all be right, and we can all be wrong, which fits into the theme of the episode, either by design or by happy accident, but in the end it has people speculating and talking over and over about Doctor WHO. Which is his goal. To put Doctor WHO back on everyone's tongue, back in everyone's head, and in that way this is brilliant.
That said, I'm a lore nerd and I want an answer!! 🤣
Still don't have an In WHOniverse explanation for the clothes changing from 13 to 14. Don't know if 14 can regenerate still. Does he become a Curator? Is he like The Watcher? Is he still going to outlive all his friends? Some people are worried 15 is just a clone, I saw that speculated. Does 14 re-merge with himself at some point, perhaps during the 13 to 14 regen so the healing is there to pass to 15 when he pops out? If 14 never re-merges with the other Doctor, if the loop is never made complete, then how does the therapy even work at all? Is the emphasis on healing and therapy undermined or cheapened if they don't re-merge somehow to pass it on, since that would just be cheating in a way an actual person suffering could never do, to skip beyond the hard work? These are the things I think about, and things I've argued about over the last week, and I just want to pass them on so you too can consider and speculate, and pontificate upon questions I dread we will never get satisfactory answer to.
Happy Holidays!!
had no clue these were the 60th anniversary....honestly thought they were a prelude to the anniversary
the Toymaker talks about orphans twice. this may be a reference to A Series of Unfortunate Events.
Does anyone else think Kate is going to release the master. Or at least someone at unit either accidentally or on purpose. I didn't realise until rewatching it that it looks like Kate's hand that picks up the tooth containing the master after the toymaker was defeated. I wonder who will be playing the master and which episode they will appear in next. If the master comes back do you think Tennant will be a special guest to help nsuti ?
@PaytonHarris60 half of this wasnt even cohesive
I really liked how Kate asked what happened to the guards and cared about them, quite often nobody notices when the "little people" die in film and TV
Yeah that was a nice touch - felt very Kate!
At least they didn't have red shirts.... ;-P
Remember Sam Rockwell's "Guy" from GalaxyQuest? ;-)
It was nearly a miracle that Donna never mentions that Ncuti Gatwa wasn’t wearing pants.
The sheen on those thighs really made her question her fidelity, surely
I prefer to think of bigeneration as being the result of The Toymaker's domain. He declared ad hoc that the rules required him to face a new Doctor, but did they really?
He may not be capable of cheating at games, but the game hadn't begun yet.
Did shooting The Doctor constitute "unsportsmanlike conduct?" If so, the myth of bigeneration may have become reality as a technical foul against The Toymaker.
The Doctors' argument that The Toymaker couldn't protest the consequences of his own actions would seem to support the Technical Foul theory.
This would also simultaneously answer the question of how bigeneration worked as well as explaining why they don't revisit it again later.
I like this as an idea. I'm also a big fan of the loopback theory. Either way the explanation that it was only possible because of the toymakers domain would make the most sense.
14 won’t regenerate he can grow old. This is designed to explain the other doctors who are now older, and they still have adventures. That’s what big finishes all about and they’re not all within their timeline. They have new companions as well as the traditional ones so now it all makes sense as well as the curator and I love it I absolutely love it and there’s someone with cerebral palsy I cried when I saw the ramp because when I was five years old, I didn’t want to play G.I. Joe I was watching Doctor Who on PBS and I wanted to fly off in the Totis with the doctor now I can
@@coreygilmore301 11 grew old and 1st doctor was an old man. Time lords do age
@@coreygilmore301 While yes, it does explain the various Doctors growing old, they still eventually regenerate (properly) into their next incarnation. 15th Doctor is not a clone, he is the proper 15th coming after 14th. That means 14th will eventually regenerate into him at the end of his life, or in case of a fatal injury. 15th said a thing about them doing the "rehab" out of order, meaning he (as a former 14th) is already done with it and manifested to help the current 14th with it (remember it takes both 15th Doctor and Donna to talk 14th into the semi-retirement on Earth).
And another clue is what RTD said about the "new" TARDIS. It's not a clone of the TARDIS, it's the proper TARDIS from a future time, the one, that 14th TARDIS will evolve into. So it's one TARDIS and not two, which also applies to the Doctor. One and the same Doctor, just in two places at once. Look at it as in Day of the Doctor, we had 3 incarnations of the Doctor and 3 models of the same TARDIS just from different time periods.
What RTD meant about the other Doctors bi-generating at some point, is not in the "main" universe, each incarnation has its own universe, where only they bi-generate, coexist for a while with their next regeneration, even grow old in ideal circumstances, but eventually regenerate properly into their next incarnation to close the loop. It's not a multitude of Doctors running wild in the "main" universe, it's each Doctor separately bi-generating in their own universe, so there's a multiverse of Doctors and some of them might pop in from times to times. We only follow the main universe, where it happend to 14th Doctor. But even he has to eventually become 15th properly. Will it be soon? Will it be much much later? We don't know yet, but one day it will happen. Theories talking about 14th Doctor becoming the Curator are wrong, that's not RTD's plan at all.
@@coreygilmore301 The question that comes to me is will he or wont he grow old & not regenerate or will he continue on & then at some point regenerate into Dr 15.1? or something like that.
“I made a jigsaw of your history, did you like it?”
If you think that’s not Russel saying “don’t worry about the timeless child, the doctor is whoever u want him to be.”
I think it's cool sci-fi fantasy how the bigeneration worked, set up during the excellent episode Wild Blue Yonder with both reminding the audience that The Doctor's is actually from a mysterious species and can go beyond the limits of the typical time lord, and invoking the salt superstition that allowed The Toymaker to slip in and bring myth into reality that could have also what allowed for the bigneration to happen. The 14th and 15th doctors teaming up to beat the Toymaker was fantastic and throughout the 3 episodes, everyone that didn't see spoilers was constantly dreading a sad goodbye for either Donna and/or 14, so it was such a relief and subversion that at the end of the 3 eps, both get to stay and with each other. I don't find "overusing" a particular actor to be a worry at all as an audience member and fan. What matters is the creatives behind the show crafting a good story and I'm on board for as many stories that David Tennant is willing to make as either as a lead or as a guest. It's truly special when an actor radiates love for Doctor Who as he does and he makes time between his busy schedule for special appearances. I will never, ever take that for granted.
Did anyone else think that bigeneration could explain the Valeyard? Or maybe the Watcher?
I've just now realised that the "Love the moles" line was a reference to one of ten's first lines after regenerating, when he realises he has a mole between his shoulder blades and says "Love the mole!" .....
I know it was a bit of a throwaway line, and Russell T. has explained why he put it in, but I'm really surprised that no one is mentioning The Toymaker telling The Doctor that he "made a jigsaw out of your history". I immediately grabbed onto that line.
Agreed! So many seem to not have grasped it surprisingly.
What did he say about the line? It to me says they can do whatever they want moving forward. "Doesn't matter what's happened, there's no rules anymore"
I can't find the quote anymore, but basically it's means that The Toymaker is responsible for various inconsistencies in The Doctor's pat, including him being half-human (in the TV movie), The Timeless Child, The Valeyard, etc.
Adric was NOT the only name drop....15 said "LOGOPOLIS"...that was the episode when Nyssa's homeworld TRAKKEN was destoryed and she found out the Master (played by Tony Ainsley) stole her father's body
Personally had been wondering what about these specials particularly made them celebrations of the 60th anniversary.
But I think you can look at the them as a distillation of everything Doctor Who. Over the course specials we got a alien invasions, UNIT, exploration, horror and humour, and the doctor/companion relationship laid out, with a smattering of time travel thrown in. Basically, if you were jumping on to Who because it popped up on your feed on Disney+ and David Tennant was in it, and you'd liked him in Good Omens/Jessica Jones, you'd see exactly what the show was about and whether or not it was for you. But what if you got to the third episode, liked what you saw, but were put off by the 60 years of continuity? Well that's OK, because the 14th Doctor isn't just the latest Doctor he is *The* Doctor, an amalgamation of all the Doctors that have been, or more specifically, their baggage, their guilt. He's a metaphor, you see. The embodiment of the continuity. And what do you do with all of it? To make it Digestable? You Bi-generate it. you literally split The Doctor off from his Continuity. You leave all the history behind whilst moving forward into a fresh new era. But the history, the continuity, is still there. Intact and inplace. 15 and his future stories can tap into once people are familiar with him.
And now, in universe, once a bit of time has gone by, the 14th has let go of his guilt is finally able to say "I'm ready to go" he returns to 15, whole again.
Spot on. On the other hand, I do worry they are going to disregard the Doctor's past. I like that the Doctor moves on but if the showrunnets ignore the scars completely, they take away from Doctor's complexity. Their very personality. Let's hope RTD and the scriptwriters find the right balance.
My only problem with the bigeneration is that it happened too quickly. In the past, the Doctor needs a whole episode to recover from regeneration. This time, the Doctor had just been shot through his body with a laser cannon and the bigeneration happens almost immediately and both Doctors are good to go! It just felt rushed.
Well, to be honest, not every doctor reacts the same to regeneration... I mean, just look at the difference between 10 and 11
All of the regenerations in new who have been vastly different, Tennant got sick , Smith got hungry and Capaldi got weird.
It all depends on why they regenerate. Hartnell to Troughton seems to have been the only natural one.
Though War Doctor to Eccleston looked natural too.
Smith to Capaldi in light of recent storylines maybe should have been, but at the time wouldn’t have been.
The strangest regeneration I’ve seen was Romana’s, as she was selecting what she looked like next.
I thought about that, but part of the weirdness comes from the flood of the regeneration energy. A bunch of it must've gotten burned off in the process of making a new body with new cells, while the remaining energy was split in half. Without as much energy wiring the Doctor up, he'd naturally be far less out of it
I think the 60th anniversary episodes where a bit of a wasted opportunity. Also with all the changes like bi regeneration it makes the whole of the original series redundant. This is a disappointment for someone who has watched who for the last 56 years.
So glad you mentioned Murray Gold's work here. There's a wonderful moment when Tennant's Doctor enter Gatwa's Tardis and his theme is played slowly except that after the first phrase (Dah-da-DAH-da-DAH-da) instead of descending in a minor scale (da-da-da) it resolves into a beautiful major chord. (DAH!!!). In musical terms this is a homecoming
One of the big things I consider about the bigeneration, outside the flux, is they were still in a "state of play" so the toymaker was making the rules wibbly wobbly. He was interacting with a current doctor and demanding the next, so I can sort of see how that forced both to manifest on regeneration
It's an old Timelord myth that had been brought into reality because of the events of the last episode. Did you also notice Unit place the Toymaker into a box of salt? And next episode is about goblins. The explanation for biregeneration is something to do with myths being made real. The question is, when 15 manages to resolve this situation, will he reverse the biregeneration. Timey wimey stuff
@dogblessamerica yeah, I feel the salt binding is relevant as it brought him into this universe and is now being used to "bind him"..
I'm very curious how they'll resolve the "rehab out of order" thing, because 14 has to become 15 at some point for him to be ok, which leads into your theory as well. All I can say with certainty is 15 is going to be a hell of a ride!
Side note, I really hope the toymaker isn't banished for eternity as he's an incredibly good villain from a "we can do whatever we want" perspective
As an American it was extremely well known in my early high school days. Every girl sang & danced to that song. When a teacher assigned us to change the lyrics to songs to match our history lessons & perform them, the only one I remember decades later (besides mine) is the group that did Spice Up Your Life with lyrics about the fall of the Soviet Union.
I prefer the loopback theory. 15 is a future version of the doctor who was born at a later date but the toymaker forces 14 to regenerate before he is supposed to. The universe has to correct this by bringing in the next doctor earlier than intended. Fourteen lives out the rest of his life with the nobles and after they pass he lets go of this incarnation. He becomes Ncuti and he's dragged back to the events of the giggle. Either way, bigeneration is a pretty bad concept IMHO. The show's theme is about death and keeping around another doctor kind of negates that. But hey, it is what it is. If 15 is truly split from 14 then that is that. But still, it's a baaad idea. Rtd's gotta let tennant go.
I don’t mean imply that you’re a fan of bigeneration as a whole, but it’s phenomenal how much effort lifetime fans of the show have to put into explaining this event for it to make a smidge of sense. I appreciate your effort but this still really doesn’t work for me.
It doesn't have to work for you. The doctor isn't a creature from our universe@@harrykirkham220
Therapy in reverse.
@@harrykirkham220
It's not that much effort to decipher though as it's literally explained in the show that that is what happens.
@@harrykirkham220 this is what happens with literally everything in this show. We're given weird nonsense and have to make sense of it, par for the course.
The toy master, “Well that’s ok then” that struck me a lot. 😢
Do you mean “well that’s all right then”?
@@Rubberduckboy123 yep 👍
@@JoanneMaddison2017your name is extremely close to Jo GRANT! haha 😁
So the totally empty TARDIS has a jukebox now. Anyone else want to see Ncuti accumulating more and more *stuff* throughout his run, at least one new thing each episode, until the new TARDIS ends up looking like a junk shop by the time he regenerates?
I really loved the idea of the bigeneration and I'm so happy david tennant's fourteenth doctor got his happy ending with donna and her family! 😊😊
We HAVE kinda had a Bigeneration two times before - The first not with the Doctor but with Cho-je and Kampo (they called it a "projection") and then in Logopolis with the Watcher - Not the same effect per se but kinda the same idea but sort of in reverse.
For some reason WhoCulture refuse to even mention this.
The bigeneration made perfect sense to me - we know the drs regenerations seem to be linked to their state of mind, and at this point the Dr needs to stop but also can't. So the Dr splits. And the new version benefits from the stopping because timely wimey whatever. Also maybe 14 ends up becoming the museum creator from the 50th?
For this episode, for this Doctor, I'd say yes, but I don't think it should be a recurring thing. I think it might take the wind and urgency out of future regenerations.
For those confused how two Doctors can exist at the same time…I mean…technically there are 15 Doctors in the universe at any time anyway. Since they all can travel throughout time and space. Not that complicated to me.
I think they are setting up the Unit spin-off. With Donna and Mel 14 will be an off screen advisor.
Murray Gold is a genius , I absolutely adore his more choral and vocal stuff in the show more than anything. I’m so happy he’s back.
I didn’t really notice the music. I suppose that’s the point: enhance the mood without being intrusive.
@@judithstrachan9399 it’s only the last few years where I’ve truly noticed good music in cinema and tv. It goes a long way for me personally. Harry Potter and Doctor who will always have my favourite music.
Ncuti has such a great energy, I really forward to his turn at the role. We have the Christmas special scheduled into our Christmas Day lol.
Regarding the bigneeration and end of 14... YEah I think what 14 is experiencing is the long way around a 'fixed time loop'. When he is done and regenerates into 15, he will become Ncuti and then be pulled through a rift of sorts into this episode. And if some of the other media that has been altered to include Ncuti (see Adventures in Space and Time) then they've already shot Ncuti's part of that moment, and either have shot an older madeup tennant or will much later on (probably did both) to have it on the hard drive, waiting for I don't know how many decades to finish the loop on screen. BEcause now we're waiting for it. YEs 14 is doing rehab out of order, that's why when 15 shows up, he's good.. because he's the product of what happens when the doctor is recovered.
I think when 14 dies, maybe he'll regenerate into Tom Baker, and become The Curator
Maybe he's the Curator already...
I honestly believe that bi-regeneration has been hinted at before. it would go a great way to explaining Tom Baker as The Curator in the 50th anniversary special. At the time, it was played off as just a humorous scene between Matt Smith's Doctor and an actor who used to play The Doctor, but watching that scene now takes on a whole new tone. If you accept that bi-regeneration is a thing that happens, at least occasionally, then a lot of the banter between the two makes more sense. The instant recognition between the two, why Tom Baker comments that Matt might become a curator someday, why some of the old faces might turn up again, but only the favorites, and so on. Perhaps the bi-regeneration thing is something that has been floating around in RTD's mind for years.
Yess I thought the same ! I was always so confused by this scene with tom baker, because it really fellt just like a scene done for the fans, without it making really sens (which is fine because it's doctor who and nothing makes really sens, but still a little bit out of nowhere) Now I can look at this scene and think yep, that's a thing.
How was it played off as "humorous?" While it was funny, it was also serious.
@@marmac83 Funny / humorous - same/same. Why would you respond like that? What’s the purpose of the first part of your comment, other than to be needlessly belligerent? Why not just say “yeah it was funny but I think it was also serious”? Ironic given one of the key themes of this episode.
It was NOT played off as just a humorous scene. It was a huge shock, and had massive lore implications and set up the whole search for galifrey and the fact that the doctor might eventually revisit some old faces when he regenerates
The curator did talk about revisiting old faces, though, which would imply that he was a future regeneration rather than an aged olde one.
as someone that was completely spoiler free and blocked everything on purpose. I loved the bigeneration. I was elated and it was very unexpected, after the episode ended i just ended up being like, im happy he gets to finally have a reward and yet the fun adventures also continue. Though personally id hope that, like 15th said, its just rehab the wrong way around, and 14th does timey-wimey and becomes 15th after the break, but even if it doesnt happen, its a fun new idea that has the potential for new writing avenues and stories that would not be possible otherwise.
Anybody else find it adorable Ellie's love of River Song? OK, she wasn't the only one in this world that loved and yelled in glee when River was referenced. River deserves the importance of her role acknowledged and referenced in the many Doctor's lives.
It's very endearing. As my Doctor is 11, it feels relatable too
Hearing you guys talk about the Timeless child plot, I think we can also think of it as they were just regenerating beings, but William Hartnell is the first to call himself the Doctor when he ran away with the Tardis.
I'm choosing to believe that as my head cannon.
The thing that I love the most is that we had an actual happy ending. I think we all can use some healing at this point in our crazy world. Ncuti's Doctor emerged fully realized and self-aware. No confusion like we see with most regenerations. Now Ncuti can start his journey lighter. I think this is a great energy for Gen Z moving forward. A very hopeful beginning. - Also, my theory is that these bigeneration splits allow for the Curator and others. I think these were the Doctors that were trapped in the Edge that have been released to grow old and can't regenerate as they are no other the prime Doctor.
I look so forward to you guys having these with every new episode! So glad Ellie is feeling better! I can’t add much to the comments that you all didn’t already say because I agree with everything you said about this episode! What I can say is having cerebral palsy and being wheelchair bound, I can’t tell you the overwhelming feeling of joy that I felt when I saw a ramp on The Tardis! One of the greatest moments of my life!
I could totally see bigeneration playing out in season 1 ending with The Master using that to create an army of different Master versions by trying to steel bigen from 15 causing them to purge it removing that as a deus ex.
That would be so funny. "My straw reaches acrrrrrroooossssssssss time and space. And I drink your regeneration milkshake! I drink it up!!!"
This will happen. I've seen it mentioned multiple laughs heard via the tooth being picked up
The one big advantage I can give you, Ellie, is that keeping the 14th doctor around finally adds some continuity to the first time The Doctor and River Song meet.
Because now we have an older version of the 10th doctor in the 14th, River's comment about how The Doctor "looks so young" can make sense.
If the 14th has an adventure with the River Song between the events of the singing towers and the library, one without Donna but instead maybe Rose, she'd recognise his older face but not Donna.
Yes, but it would likely have to have happened before the Singing Towers because she didn't recognize 12's face & that was the last time she saw him before the Library. Maybe one of her adventures during Stormcage or after being Pardoned (so between 11 & 12).
That would be SO sweet and I would need exactly two buckets for all the tears
She didn’t recognise Donna, but she’d heard of her.
@@judithstrachan9399 Exactly. That's why it'd need to be a story with the 14th but not Donna present.
What?? This is completely unnecessary, her saying he looks young already makes perfect sense. The last time she saw him he was literally more than twice as old
Bigeneration is either pointless (they ignore it to keep with 15) or a distraction (split time between 15 and 14).
I really have issues with it from either side.
RTD’s it happened to all of them is such fanfic
0:48 As a big fan of both I can’t decide which revelation surprises me more: that Psy is THAT tall or that Ellie is that tiny!? ❤
idk, nobody is talking about how kate told the unit agent to bind the toymakers box in salt, I think the doctor retroactively made the salt superstition actually work to defend against otherworldly entities, like before it was just belief/myth, now its science/fact.
Something I cought on the second viewing of the episode. When they're all back in the tardis discussing if Tennent should stay with Donna. Someone asks Ncuti "Why are you ok with everything?"
Ncuti says "you're doing therapy out of order, I'm fine because you are taking time off..."
Always wibbly wobbly timey wimey! Love it!!!!
I picked up on that. It’seems to me a fairly strong implication that 14 will eventually merge(?) back into 15 (& possibly be straight back at the UNIT tower with 14 & the Toymaker).
10:20 at some point in the past, we had no Regeneration. It was never talked about... but now no one complains about this thing called Regeneration being odd or such. What is more odd is that we only had 1 non-male Doctor and no non-human looking ones despite that being possible. Though I know why they are doing the human looking Doctor.
I'd love if after Ncuti we got a super moody, edgy, pissed off goth Asian female Doctor. She'd be entitled, "finally it's my turn! Why have I been so bloody nice?! I've got notbing to show for all that effort except trauma." But then a random dude saves her when she's distracted or still regenerating so there's a play off his generosity and her wanting to be prickly and stop making friends, but everybody just thinks she's joking when she says something insane.
Would be awesome if they regenerated into a familiar alien temporarily for a special. A Doctor Dalek would be a treat
I'm excited for the reveal that The Master is the Timeless Child and The Doctor is The Master's first bigeneration.
My own theory: as the Bigeneration is due to the Toymaker power, both 14 and 15 will live their own adventures separately, maybe crossing path here and there. His legion are out there as he mention, therefore the story did not end, the game is still on.
Once the Doctor(s) finally close that chapter, and likely the final would be both together, the evolution of both 14 and 15 at that time will merge back as the power of the Toymaker run thin and that will be the end of the path of 2 doctors, regenerating into 1 with both memories.
This is the only channel for which I have notifications turned on.. and for good reason.
Question: have you guys seen Christopher Eccleston's recent comments about what it would take for him to return? If so, thoughts?
This is the way.
Responding to your edit: Yes we have, and his comments don't really tell us anything new - we've always known he had a frosty relationship with the producers on Series 1.
@@WhoCulturebut the producers are different now, acting culture is different now.
He seems to really like Moffat, though. If RTD goes in a couple years and Phil Colinson goes with him, there might be a chance.. seeing as the other two he mentioned (as far as I know) are already gone, having started Bad Wolf.
@@ApolloStarfall you know Bad Wolf is producing Doctor Who now right? so both of them are back hence he wanted them sacked too
@Domino2097 I was wondering about that..I didn't see them credited, but maybe i just didn't look hard enough. But yeah, that does make sense. Thanks for letting me know!
Considering the 15th doctor was the one who told everyone about bigeneration and knowing what the 14th doctor should do, its very well supported that when 14 eventually dies after his break on earth he will be pulled back to the moment of bigeneration as 15, making it an infinite loop and continuing the story from 14 but just doing a timey wimey time jump.
I felt the unresolved stuff in the School reunion works but was refreshing to see Mel being so nice.
I also saw a really great theory that Ncuti's Fifteenth Doctor went through all of the rehab and rest that Fourteen is going through now. All the Toymaker did was bring that forward. So to close the loop, this theory said that Fourteen won't regenerate again, he'll just die and turn into regeneration energy that Ncuti or another Doctor will eventually absorb because his regeneration happened out of order. So all the family dinners with the Nobles are memories that Fifteen has.
The Doctor’s bi-generation means that if Michael Sheen ever played the Doctor (hopefully as Sixteen) then Sheen and Tennant (as Fourteen) can share the screen. And honestly, at this point, I think that would be the only thing I would ever want David to come back for. Put Tennant's incarnations to rest.
That theme for Fifteen that Murray Gold wrote is also phenomenal! It's been in my head all week.
And then the next time they see each other Tennant kisses Ncuti on the forehead for one more allons-y before rejoining together. Give me full fanfic levels of hopium
Not rejoining. Likely he'll just die and then turn into regeneration energy that will eventually find Ncuti, who will reabsorb it. @@nailinthefashion
This may also explain -"the moment has been prepared for ". The two most popular doctors had overlap with their replacements.
I still feel it is a bit unfair to Ncuti to do the split. Yes, I get Tennant fans but I still feel if you watch Doctor Who you have to accept regeneration and the actor is going to leave.
It might be a business decision but how would you like to start a job and have the person who left but came back is going to be kept around just in case?
Do like the idea of maybe 14 may eventually just fade away like the Watcher from Logopolis. That or he goes evil and becomes the Valeyard.
If it is overused you're going to get that 14, Tennant, is the real Doctor. People will keep wanting the real one back.
The Eleventh Doctor said ten years ago: "I could retire and become a Curator", and that's exactly what the 14th Doctor did. He retired. And also, he revisited an old face, and a favourite one...
@@sabrinatirabassi3529that just head cannon it just Russell telling is David is the center of the show and he is going to keep making him more version of the doctor and as someone pointed out they could almost successfully do a remake of the 5 doctors with David alone now that he is 4 versions of the doctor
As an American that had to learn choreography for a debutante ball that was set to Spice Up Your Life I must protest this notion that we don’t know or get the magnificent glory of the Spice Girls and that song! 🎶”Hai Si Ja! Hold tight!”🎶 😜
We might get Short Who's and Long Who's, like short Treks and Long Treks
Which means a Long Who of the Fugitive Doctor regeneration in, then, quick life summary, then retirement, to forced regeneration into a young William Hartnell would be a great story
One tiny bit of detail that I liked was the fact that they added a throwaway line of putting the toymaker's box in a secured vault " *surrounded by salt* ".
And I think that's another brilliant aspect of "evoking myth at the edge of the universe".
i think that Tennant should show up on occasion in the UNIT spinoff, he's basically stuck on earth and just sitting around, no way anything can happen at UNIT that he doesnt know about anyway.
My take on how the Doctors move forward after bi-generation is that 15 carries on as normal with the ability to regenerate, while 14 continues to live but without the ability to regenerate again and therefore does die eventually. That gets around all the arguments about how many Doctors there can be - if every Doctor could split and then split again, then eventually you'd get a universe populated just by the Doctors.
As an American the same age as NPH, I’m really surprised he didn’t know Spice Up Your Life. It got plenty of airplay here.
I know, right?!! It was my first concert. My friend even dressed up as Ginger Spice. We didn't meet until a decade later, but we went to the same arena to see them down in San Diego in....1998/9 (?). We bonded over that.
Interesting. I'm also the same age an NPH and American and I DIDN'T know the song, either. Then again, I was a gothy punk in my mid 20s not listening to popular music, so it could've been that.
I’m 11 years younger then Neil and the spice girls were big here America and I am still a fan
Totally agree that 14 will eventually regenerate into 15. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already filmed Ncuti's half of the regeneration which sees him instantly warp (or whatever terminology you want to use) into the bi-generation.
I always thought it would be interesting if the doctor regenerated doing a crisis and the way the did it hear was fascinating until they added the bigeneration twist. I had to watch it a second time to appreciate it. I went into this episode thinking it’s sad this is 14 last appearance and wishing we could get a few more episodes but after watching the trilogy I am happy with it.
Tennant will definitely be back, they'll have to resolve the two TARDIS. I think she'll ask him to go somewhere that happens to align with Ncuti and happens to be a necessary sacrifice so he would have a definitive ending
Ah so Ellie picked up the Master's Tooth with that Red Nail Polish 👀😂
I know its not the exact same thing but i have zero issues with bigeneration, we had the doctors daughter episode where he was cloned and she regenerated at the end of the scene showing a clone of him could regenerate too.
In 'Wild Blue Yonder', when The Doctor tried tricking the Not-Things with the salt at the edge of the universe, and The Doctor's double was not tricked, this was the catalyst for breaking the barrier between the world of myths and legends and our world. This explains how The Toymaker was able to set himself up on Earth instead of him staying in his own realm, and how the 'myth' of bigeneration became a thing. The Toymaker only folded up as he had lost and always respects the rules, but the salt will no longer bind him. The Toymaker also warned that his legions would be on their way, hence the goblins coming in 'The Church On Ruby Road'. I do have a feeling that the musical set pieces we are seeing are a foreshadowing of another mythical being, The Music Maker' as played by Jinkx Monsoon.
I like the theory that 14 will eventually become the Curator working for UNIT in the 50th anniversary?
Here's my theory how they can resolve 14's ending and becoming 15 due to the Bi-generation based on events from the past series.
Stage 1: 14 lives a long life in retirement, when he "dies" because he used his regeneration already, he dies.
Stage 2: His body breaks down into the fixed energy stream that we saw occur on Trenzalore in 11's episode arcs.
Stage 3: Given time, that energy stream starts to coalesce into a "ghost" like being (the watcher from 4th doctor's story) made up of pure energy, left alone, it would eventually reconstitute into a child's body, however....
Stage 3A: If a Doctor enters that "Watcher's" time stream, they reconstitute together.
That might be one way to address the issue, based entirely on what has already happened in the show's long history.
OK. this is going to be my theory. I apologies if its already out there but it occurred to me naturally. Be prepare to be both dazzled and confused with a huge pinch of salt.
Theory - Bigeneration is the norm.
Each time the Doctor regenerates it is a bigeneration with an older and a younger self. We have been followed the links in he chain of each older form of the doctor. The reason we never see two doctors from the same bigeneration is that the universe naturally creates two quantum states one for each doctor. effectively a ne timeline branches off for each generation.
The reason we have two doctors from the bigeneration is because the toymaker was in close proximity. As a powerful being from outside our whoniverse it prevented the creation of two quantum universe states trapping both versions of the doctor in one quantum timeline.
This is where it gets bigger. As a further thought the reason the timeless child never seemed to age when seen on screen but stayed a child is because Rassilon was able to keep the younger version allowing the older verison to go. Making a branch of bigenreations from the original timeless child. The doctor is and isnt the timeless child at the same time, he is branch off the original child (could this explain the memory loss before the 1st doctor?).
Maybe, just maybe the Master fascination with the Doctor is because he also a branch off the original timeless child. Two branches off the same tree.
dazzled, disgusted or confused do let me know.
I really don't go with the theory of 15 being from the future. It makes no sense, no matter what the confusing dialogue may imply.
I've been watching Doctor Who for longer than you two have lived, and that was one of the best episodes ever.
I've been watching Doctor Who from the start. It wasn't one of the best episodes but it was a good one. However, Neil Patrick Harris's portrayal of The Toymaker was absolutely brilliant. And whoever decided to cast him in the role is a genius. He certainly deserves another story or two in the future. Imagine a three way ep involving The Doctor, The Master and The Toymaker?
The Ramp is called Tharries Ramp on Set and it's a nod to the Whoutuber Tharries who was on the premiere of the giggle and Russel revealed to him, that he was the reason they added a ramp to the tardis, which I love and it shows how even 1 fan can have a influence on the show...
I love the addition of the wheelchair ramp and honestly. Can't think of why anybody would have a problem with it. But it does Cause you to ask some other questions if you have a good memory. Like how did clara drive the motorcycle into the tardis if there was no ramp. I actually never noticed the step up before. I just always assumed it was pretty close to flush. Is clearly I was Is wrong. But irregardless of any continuity issues I think it's a nice Addition. Also I wonder if anybody thought of the fact that because there is now a ramp they're going to actually use it. Which means we're gonna have that character probably show up more often.
Also, the old school TARDIS console room (aside from the secondary console room in S14) was usually flat without any ramps -- those came in the new series starting with RTD. So, it was technically theoretically accessible in Classic Who too.
We got spice girls music in America back in the day. The song was vaguely familiar. It's Billie Piper songs that virtually no American has ever heard.
I've always thought the idea of bigeneration has always happened in every universe with every doctor for me still fits in with my lore. The toymaker influence (making myth into reality, the laws of play, anything is possible) caused the bigeneration and that indeed the toymaker more then a god effecting every universe every doctor every past and future. So while we might not see bigeneration for a while it is something that unseen is always happened. Also remember back in classic who and in lore Tardis can pass into other dimensions so yes for me this all fits and other doctors running into each other is more then possible. I can't wait tbh it be epic
I am 26 years old and British. Before this episode, I had genuinely never heard “Spice Up Your Life” before. Banging song though. Was immediately added to my playlist.
Maybe look for the movie Spice World! 💙
I like the bi-generation and "Doctor-verse" as well. It allows essentially every possible combination. You could have every doctor procees past-regeneration [scene], as if the regeneration hadn't happened. At the same time they can every iteration AS IF their regeneration happened, but not the next one. At the same time you can have the "pre-60th-special" timeline be as it was.
This, as mentioned, has to be handled properly.
Personally, I'm [more or less] "ok" with whatever they do - if done "not completely idiotic". Though of course... I would prefer a "non-canon-breaking" (and therefor in my opinion "canon-extending) way.
And yes... this includes giving Ncuti his time to shine as "The Doctor".
I like the idea of this Doctor being the one who finally heals other Doctors. Wouldn't it be special if he visited an older one when he needs help and completes a cycle we didn't even know could exist? The Doctor healing himself and not just the universe
Ok when we find out that Wilf was not going to be in the episode I was glad to know, we need to know.
I am GLAD that the 10th/14th Doctor got a Happy Ever After ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️. And that explains why it is season 1,a new beginning (USA) UK has this happened before is that why you only have X number of regenerations???????????.
UK is this why
So personally I don't like the Bi-Generation. But it is a plot point that explains a lot of things. Like the Curator, the War doctor, and the Doctor Ruth. If there was a Bi-generation similar though delayed. There is a second 10th doctor in a another dimensions with Rose T. But they should not use this as a way to just to wing it.
On potential Tennant overuse: upon seeing the Star Beast, for the first time, i had, at least 3 bait and switch moments, where it seemed like something was being foreshadowed and it worked out completely different. From then on, i prefer try to not think i can predict what RTD2 is planning. I would HOPE that Russel has faith in himself, enough, to be confident that IF he brings Tennant back, again, he will do it well. He’s more than proven his abilities. Don’t fret.
They might use some scenes with Tennant in the upcoming Unit tv series.
Donna just got a job with Unit. So the 14th would be an advisory role, along with the Curator, who is working with audio Unit
Hi! Had some time between the first two 60th’s to think and have emergency gallbladder removal surgery (from 2-4am) so saw The Giggle in Hospital just, just outside Chicago.
I have to say this was one of the best Doctor Who episodes ever. Why?
I was almost completely protected from spoilers, for one, and the pacing was just SO FAST, and the characterizations so rich, that this was truly a landmark episode of Doctor WHO.
If I’m looking for a series comparison, I’d say this is on par with if not exceeds the entertainment value of Buffy the Musical which was an amazing and quirky episode of its own. (Oh to have SMG appear in Doctor Who as either Buffy or Daphne….) can you hear me Russell? Since we now have a Doctorverse, all things are possible aren’t they.
Next, casting, NPH as the Toymaker was not good casting it was magnificent casting. He transcended every possible expectation I could have had. Nothing like bringing a full fledged Broadway star into an episode to really liven it up. If you’ve seen his performances at award shows you know he can do a lot, but this! Wow. Thunderous applause to all involved in the Final Cut.
What lived in my mind however, is that tux wearing spin, the I am King of the Universe moment as the chaos just builds, builds, builds until it explodes.
So great having David & Catherine back. Just wow. The one spoiler, other than casting which snuck through the week before was that Wilf would not appear in this episode. So the Wilf is off hunting bit was greatly appreciated and was hilarious . RIP Bernard Cribbens (Wilf salute).
As someone who’s one of the thousands whose played Charley in Charley’s Aunt, I appreciate classic comedy elements when I see them, which to me means using repeating subtle elements of comedy that need not be there but are there because real vets can imagine them. That was Wilf’s mole hunt to me. Even better, it brought tears too.
So, as someone who’s trying to work his way out of his wheelchair for trips over 100 yards outside, I do appreciated the wheelchair ramp in the T.A.R.D.I.S.!!!!!!!!!!!
Even with the curb cuts and ramps brought to the streets of the US, there are still many places that are literally dangerous to travel by chair. My one excursion out in a chair via Uber, CTA and Metra, I fell twice and had to be pushed up a long high ramp by a stranger (people are really nice here to the disabled (usually)).
My point is, seeing that ramp in the Big Blue Box was perfect. It didn’t hurt that I loved the actor who shed important light on another topic: people in wheelchairs may well be able to temporarily stand, which means they are trying/working/hoping to get out of their chair and are not using it as an opportunity to get privileges. It’s also humbling for a 6’2” person to shrink to 4’2 or whatever while seated. I do look forward to heat seeking wheelchair launched missles in the future!
I despise spoilers as I’ve been watching Who since the 1970’s and they just get in the way of great surprises and twists. So I’d gone into NCuti Gatwa’s appearance without a clue as to his actual performance ability. Wow! He got off with a bang, or Bi-Gang… (see what I did there?)
Knowing that the next series or however was in amazing hands put the plum on top of the pudding!
So, I loved it. Loved Mel’s appearance and Unit (just rewatched/listened to) Nicholas Courtney’s first episode as CLS and was so glad to see KLS back. So glad.
Finally, perhaps NPH’s amazing performance will attract other talented actors to cross the pond for the occasional villain or character?
NPH’s performance and the whole amazing lift and description of the episode to my nurse who had been a classic who fan but fell away because kids and COVID, that she just might come back into the fold. Who nose who’s next to be drawn to try out the show again or for the first time?
Who knows??? ❤
i appreciate you guys. I may not agree with everything you say, but your openness and willingness to present a positive and educated perspective out strips any other of the commentators. You know lots but don't claim you're the experts to end all experts.
If anyone wants to reconcile The Timeless Child with The Doctor's timelord heritage, you can make it your head canon that:
1. The Doctor suffered a lot over not knowing where they came from
2. The Master always has it out for The Doctor
3. Time travel is super canon in this universe
It's very possible for The Master to go back in time, pick up a random child from Gallifrey and placing them under the vortex to be found in the past.
It means the time lords are a paradox but The Doctor was born on Gallifrey.
You can also hand-wave away the extra regenerations by accounting for the war doctor's forced regeneration not counting, and then the extra regeneration energy given to the 11th. Or maybe The Master did something to The Doctor before wiping their memories to uncap the regenerations.
We never see the child emerge from another universe after all.
Here's the one thing I can't get around. Any crisis that occurs on earth 14 would not sit by and watch it happen so they would meet all the time right??? Or am I misunderstanding something?
I like the theory that David's doctor is the one who eventually becomes the Curator we met in the 50th anniversary
I like the idea of it, just not for the Doctor. What always used to be great is that the Doctor wasn’t really a ‘special’ Time Lord, just one with a TARDIS and ambition to see the universe.
Recently DW has been turning him into this character who’s god-like not because of what he does, but because of his DNA.
Plus the nature nature of time travel means that multiple Doctors can crossover with each other (e.g. the 3 Doctors, the 5 Doctors and then the 50th special). And it’s not confusing because we know it’s the same person but at different points in his life.
Now I’m if they do it’s unclear whether it’ll be from 14th body or 15th’s.
It’s a cool idea but opens a can of worms for the Doctor and then going forward. It would be a cool idea to explain how the Master has also come back after clearly dying multiple times.
I think Good Omens season 3 has been announced if I read twitter right. David is probably going to be busy with other projects for a while anyway. A UNIT spinoff with Donna and family with sometimes cameos of 14 might not be bad if they did that.
Loved this episode, and I personally subscribe to the idea that, kind of like the Watcher a little bit, The Fifteenth Doctor sort of popped back in time early, etc. etc.
Love the video the only bad thing is and u did this in Ur up and down video is where was the mention of the Sarah Jane name drop I love river but Sarah Jane I actually cried when 15 mentioned her she was such a huge part of doctor who and they finally acknowledged her passing in a episode
I like one interpretation I heard, 14 lives with the Noble Temples for a while, then he regenerate (for whatever reason) but again he gets an old face. This time it's the face of 4 and he knows exactly why and what he has to do, go back and become the Curator from the 50th anniversary.
Have they really explained yet why (and how) the Doctor's clothes changed at the end of the Power of the Doctor?
20:48 The reason Neil Patrick Harris didn't have the same connection to Spice up Your Life isn't because he's American, it's because he wasn't a pre-teen girl when the song was released. Source: I was a preteen girl when it was released and I was jamming tf out along with him
I think Ncuti's regeneration episode will he a team up with 14 and once 15 starts to light up so will David and they will kinda merge to form the 16th.
I absolutely LOVED the Bigeneration! I didn't get spoiled so it was an absolute surprise and such a delight! I love that this timeline has two Doctors that coexist, and they are BOTH the Doctor. One is not more Doctor than the other. They are both The Doctor. The Tardis did not get copied, both spaceships are The Tardis. One does not supplant the other. The only difference is one is going to continue saving the universe while the other gets to rest and heal. But both of them are the same Doctor we have all followed and loved for 60 years, and both of them will continue to be the Doctor we all love. With myths becoming reality as the walls of the universe thin, the universe probably needs two Doctors. One can keep Earth in good hands during Donna's lifetime while the other keeps watch among the stars. As the viewer we will follow the one that is travelling the stars and saving the universe. With this being a Sci-fi show that has always been weird, off beat, and timey whimey, this totally fits. I love it!
now the "new branch" created in the bigeneration, can result in all the not well explaineds doctors, the fugitive dr, etc.. and then evolve into the watcher, to merge again in the original "branch" of the doctor when the 4th dies, in this case, the fugitive can be a past version, because comes before the 5th and also a future version, because is post-15th
I loved bigeneration if for no other reason than it finally gave us a happy ending to enjoy.
There’s a difference between having a multiverse and altering the same timeline now claiming every single Doctor bi-generated as did their TARDIS. I get he wants an excuse as to why the actors have aged whenever or if ever he brings back a former Doctor, but there are easier, less canon altering ways like claiming they’re from an actual alternate universe. It comes off as ridiculous, convoluted, and lessens the impact of future regenerations. It also risks making the whole concept of bringing a former Doctor back if they end up turning it into an overused gimmick, which they may given RTD is trying to in a sense future proof it so it can be done whenever they want. I also don’t like the bi-generation being permanent as I feel they should have merged after the Toymaker was defeated. The 10th/14th Doctor waiting in the wings to swoop in and save the day when the 15th Doctor is overwhelmed feels like it detracts from Ncuti Gatwa and if that doesn’t happen in a situation we’ll be left wondering why especially given they even duplicated the TARDIS meaning he can show up whenever & wherever as needed for backup.
While I loved NPH as the Toymaker I found his whole scheme massively underwhelming. A video that makes humanity crazy-er sounds like something any Doctor who villain could do and the Toymaker, a godlike being who can control & alter all of reality, ended up feeling like just another monster of the week.
I was taken a bit out of the episode by the 10th/14th Doctor’s ranting about how evil humanity is. It felt utterly random, didn’t feel like it belonged, and was essentially victim blaming considering what was happening. It didn’t make any sense unless we chalk it up to the Doctor having a breakdown.
I think that's the whole point of it. I don't think Russell was meaning that this universe it has happened before, 15 even says that it hasn't happened before. However he is using the alternate universe idea to have an explanation for future crossovers with classic who doctors.
Maybe where/how 14th regenerates again is throws him back into he’s first regenerates.
I don't know about the States, but we loved Spice Girls here in Canada. I was singing right along with the song during the scene!
I feel like the bigeneration was caused by the Toymaker influencing the world with his powers even on a subconcious level. He gives the little puppet show of companion deaths since Donna was last with the Doctor, and each lived on somehow with that being "okay then!". That coupled with the gaming thrill of the idea of Best of 3, he focuses on the 3 with saying the next part will be in 2023. So maybe the number 3 bubbled away and cropped up again much like the conclusion of a certain Star Trek TNG episode involving a timeloop ending with the destruction of the Enterprise-D.
So when he decides since games 1 and 2 were played with different Doctors and he needed a difference Doctor to play game 3, the idea of 3 and living after death formed into a reality of a 3 player game with the Doctor living after death like 3 recent companions. And while the next companions weren't featured in the puppet show (because they didn't die) it was a group of 3 companions for a lot of it. Add onto that the myths becoming realities with the salt line from the previous episode and Toymaker kills the Doctor with the idea of 3 allowing the bigeneration myth to become reality.
On another general theory note - the idea of myths becoming reality that allowed the Toymaker to come into the real world - well the Doctor is a myth to a lot of people with the meaning of the word Doctor being based on stories of the Doctor themselves, so is it possible that the Doctor created themselves and brought the Timeless Child into existence to make real the myth of the Doctor and regeneration the myth of life after death?
Hey - K9 has "hover-mode" too!
I really enjoyed the 14th Doctor sincerely and often proclaiming how he LOVES such and such.
The 15th even gets in a few! To see a David Tennant Doctor casually using the word the 10th just couldn't seem to spit out made me happy. 14 > 10
I'm getting a button made that says, "WELL, THAT'S OKAY THEN!" ;-)
I fully understand the need to let the 14th Doctor rest. And I would NEVER want them to do anything to undercut Ncuti. He IS The Doctor now, and I am excited for it.
But one idea I have heard that I like is that the 14th Doctor being split off in this way is how we could eventually end up with The Curator. That's a perfect way to do that.
Also though, there is something that the 15th Doctor says that I would really love to see realized. In the Tardis he says to 14, "I'm fine because you fix yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." He is saying that somehow he is fine because of something that 14 hasn't done yet, but is going to do. So maybe once 14 does this rehab to overcome these traumas, he either merges with 15 again (or whoever is The Doctor by that point) or he goes on to become The Curator.
But either way, I think they could tell some really beautiful and cathartic stories in showing some of that rehab the 14th Doctor will be doing. Yes, having a life. But since he also has a Tardis, maybe some travel that helps him face the traumas that have plagued them and move past those traumas. It would be a great way to revisit multiple eras of Doctor Who in a meaningful way and I feel like those episodes could be really special.
It would also give us a chance to see the uncle/niece relationship between him and Rose as they travel. Because Donna will be working at UNIT. 🙂
If Bigen had happened for previous Doctors then 14 wouldn’t have commented that “bigen is supposed to be a myth”. Shenanigans!