BG3’s Biggest Problem is Impacting 70% of Players
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- čas přidán 28. 12. 2023
- Baldur's Gate 3 is an incredible RPG but it's got one glaring issue that almost feels like an oversight. Something that was sold one way but the reality has been very different. But it was sold so effectively, 70% of players have been avoiding a key mechanic in the game:
Spoilers below
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Illithid powers.
This was brought to light by Larian Studios showing some of the stats from the game since launch showing that only about 30% of players are indulging in Illithid powers by the start of Act 2. And as reported by Screenrant here: screenrant.com/baldurs-gate-3...
That might be because people think there are downsides to doing so, but there actually aren't.
Using your illithid powers in bg3 doesn't actually have any impact at all. In a lot of ways it feels like Larian may have cut this gradual decline and replaced it with the Astral tadpole. A binary choice instead of a gradual one.
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After reading some of these comments I wanted to point out there is one consequence but to avoid accidental spoilers I won't pin it here. It has to do with a dice roll and it was one I didn't know about, so there is that! Thank you everyone who's commented from all sides on this
To add to it ****spoilers ahead*****
The final tadpole roll becomes harder to resist if you take the astral tadpole. Taking that tadpole turns you into an illithid. So it becomes a chain reaction
yes everyone would like more. i want more but not because they didn't do good enough but because its so good i want to keep going like at the table all the way to lvl 20.even if that means playing over 4 years to get there. :)
I used the illithid powers constantly and had to roll a nat 20 to turn down the astral tadpole
game is trash i agree
Actually in my playthrough, you can use the crown to destroy all tadpoles. So i guess it didn't matter that much. Also, you may not want to use the powers because it does transform you at some point. Which you may think it's not a consequence, but in my book it is.
Mostly the thing that has kept me away from the second tier powers is the cosmetic harm it does to my characters face and body... Yea the powers are good, but I have to look at the black bloodvein covered face every cutscene.
Play a non pretty race (half orc/dragonborn/gith) and go nuts.
There's a mod to fix that.
@@tmage23Dragonborn actually look sort of cool with the veins, but the illithid eyes makes it harder for your character to emote well.
@@TheRoseWolf My dragonborn has black scales and has bright blue flaming eyes.
The cosmetic change literally ruins my Tav because it’s now almost very hard to see where his eyes actually are when it’s dark.
@@chronenojysk5107 The veins will stand out against even black scales, and yes, illithid eyes are harder to track. I'd say it's almost worth it for the sheer amount of powers.
Using illithid powers does have consequences. The roll to resist the astral tadpole becomes harder if you've used the normal powers
There is no roll if you haven’t used any powers. I stockpiled my tadpoles and when I reached The Emperor and he presented the Astral one he was like. “it’s okay if you don’t want to use it now” and then I gobbled them all (minus the astral one) after I reached Wyrm’s crossing.
Respectfully, "Oops I failed a roll and now I'm more powerful" doesn't sound like a consequence. That sounds like a side-effect.
Unless you care how you look, no consequences. But people do care how the character they spent hours making and infinitely more playing as looks.
Thanks for this! I didn't encounter it as I didnt use any powers and I just said "no thanks" for the tadpole. This does seem like a *slight* impact, perhaps the middleground they went with. I just wish it was more of an impact since it's so central to the entire main plot of the story.
@@user-wv8yk3xu4h nerds don't count.
If it takes you that long to make a toon, then your issues lay elsewhere
When the narrator says “you’ve lost something you can’t get back” when you use Authority over goblins in Act I , I took that to mean using the tadpole was bad and never used it. I guess I’ll have to try with play through #4!
literally same lol
Every time you use illithid power to influence an NPC (for instance the Goblins who think you are a True Soul) the narration does mention losing something. I think it's phrased differently each time, but generally is "you lose something you can't get back"
It’s like losing a part of yourself, or your soul in this case. It’s all on the inside until it eventually affects your appearance if you take the astral tadpole.
Not gonna lie, I got hooked on that. The way the narrator says '*Authority.*' is just too exquisite.
I fully agree. That there are no consequences for using the Illithid powers is probably their worst blunder.
Yeah fr. After realizing this on my 2nd playthrough it made me feel like there was no narrative impact to refusing them my 1st time around.
you can become illithid and have to reload the save so if you play on no saving you can game over pretty easy @@Bokmoh
Doesn't change your appearance though?
@@nekronik no. Only the Astral touched one changes your appearance. That's also not really a "consequence."
@@bendon82 it was a consequence for me because I didn't want my appearance to change that's why I never tried them.
Having played early access for a long time, I can tell you that the current way the illithid powers works is completely changed from how it used to be, so I think that Larian either didn't have the time to work in negative complications once they made the changes, or they took feedback from the community that led them to think it was better to just let it be an extra source of powers without negative side effects.
I think it was the latter.
If you remember, in the original BG games, you would get bonus abilities as you leveled up that came from your connection to Baal, but they were either good or evil depending on your alignment, and they were never detrimental mechanically in that there were no negative side-effects.
I think this is Larian's answer to those bonus abilities that make you realize you are "special."
I believe that all of the content warning you about using these powers is left over from original plan, and they left it in for dramatic effect and to save on reworking everything. Just a thought.
That's very interesting. I played Early Access for about 30 hours but I dont think I ever ran into any tadpoles (I missed a ton) Started playing in 2021 and checked in every now and then until launch
@@RedbeardflynnRollsAOne in early access there were no tadpoles as items. After you used ilithid dialogue options a few times "Daisy" (precursor to the Guardian) showed up and gave you one power which I think was based on your class
@@kajetan9906 yeah, it was. I don't remember all of the powers, but if you played as a druid, you got the ability to wild shape into an intellect devourer, if you played as fighter, you got the ability to pull someone towards you with a power similar to thorn whip, I think you got an increased ability to heal as a cleric and the ability to completely disappear as a rogue and there were others, but I don't remember them.
Yeah I remember this as well, along with a fourth fighter with that Paladins of Tyr group xD that one Dwarf that would damage you a lot. In this sense though I don't think they could keep going with it, because the negative would just be turning into an Illithid and having no choice on that, which a lot of players would start whining about.
In one play throughout I used Ilithid powers, and on the next one I didn’t. In both cases for role playing reasons. A lot of the game is about deciding what would make sense for the motivations of the characters you are playing.
I always thought it was a rewrite. Because there are parts early in the game where if you use your illithid powers the first time. It hints you lose something of yourself. Like memories.
In early access the Dream visitor would only visit you if you used the powers. It was clear the dream visitor *was* the tadpole. At some point there was a rewrite.
Your soul, I assume. Illithids keep the memories of their host.
Ever since I used the Ilithid persuasion power in a conversation and the narrator said it felt like I lost something I’d never get back, I haven’t touched them.
75 hours in.
I for real could be using them with no consequences 😂
To be fair, on my first play through I never recruited Gale because the narrator told me the portal looked dangerous.
They should have had a hidden counter, increasing when you used a power (except maybe flight). And then there would be side effects at certain points. You'd get warnings (or encouragements from the Emperor) and if your counter got high enough, you'd not be cured if defeating the Elder Brain, you crossed point of no return, and would transform, but into an Ullatharid (more tentacles, more power and if they survive they can become Elder Brains).
I think thats actually what they were planning initially, I had the good fortune to play test the game at the Studio, and the Dream Visitor has changed a *lot* from that time compared to how they interact with the player now. It felt a lot more... Insidious, and dangerous to use the tadpole. Especially with the comments of "It feels sated" when you use the power.
I'm looking forward to later updates and DLC, and possible expansions that might improve upon this area
imo it should not be an option to remove the tadpole if you have more than 1 in your head
I remember the dream visitor being very different in the beta/Early Access. It seemed much more sinister which made me much more reluctant to use the illithid powers in my playthroughs.@@arthour051
That was how it worked during the Early Access, there are even remnants of it in the final game with the narrators dialog whenever you use Illithid powers in dialog.
Originally there were more dream sequences involving the Dream Visitor, and you would only experience the dreams if you were using the illithid powers. The framing device around the dream visitor was also completely different during early access, instead of being a protector in gleaming armor, fighting a battle in the astral plane, they were a seductive figure in a silk dress, beckoning you to embrace the powers in a verdant field. There were also implied to be different dreams for each of the origin characters (Astarion's dream involving Cazador was originally one of these illithid dreams, lae'zel would mention that her dream was of Vlaakith, and Gale would say that his dream was of Mystra). Instead of finding tadpoles to increase your powers, you would receive boons after each dream, with each class having a unique illithid power.
@@arthour051Larian announced no DLC. Dream Visitor is dead for good RIP.
There are a couple of things with these tadpoles. One is that in Act 1 when you use them in conversation, you get messages that you are losing something you will never get back. Combined with the imagery of these tadpoles seemingly eating part of your brain as they burrow in and give you powers, it makes sense that the player thinks hey, these things are like literally eating my brain out, I shouldn't really add more and make the process go faster. I honestly thought that, when you are presented the Astral tadpole, that the saving throw would be different if you for example dabbled in the use of more and more tadpoles, because if you failed the throw the wretched thing would automatically turn you into a half illithid. They could've made it so that your chances of being able to say no diminish the more tadpoles you have in there, and that because of the nature of those things you end up craving the change into a full illithid and it again would ask a higher roll to go against that pull. That's how I expected that part to go anyway, but seems that no, I just rolled badly once. I know hat this would mean that if you use or have more of these illithid powers unlocked, that the game, in the situation mentioned, would kinda railroad you into getting even more powerful in that way, and that's where I think they should've made it so that something else would then become harder. It's pretty funny that becoming Illithid gives you an edge over the Netherbrain as long as you slurp Orpheus brain. It's kind of defeating the idea that, if they were speaking the truth at least, the Netherbrain purposely let the Emperor find you, probably knowing he'd keep trying to sell you the yumminess of nethersquiglies. I get the idea that originally something more was planned, but that it couldn't be implemented in the end. Also after winning and telling the Netherbrain to destroy all the tadpoles and itself, isn't your brain full of holes after that? Does it change anything to your stats? Probably not.
(edit after watching more of the vid) The thing with the Orin kidnapping is that it happens quite early in Act 3, especially if you're nosy, and you have to go all the way down to the Bhaal temple to go try to rescue the hostage. The temple is so close to the ending, that the whole kidnapping and bringing them THERE of all places feels kind of out of place. Especially the first time around the whole thing feels like it's trying to rush you because you think Orin might kill the hostage if you take too many rests, but that never happens. On paper, the kidnapping of the romantic partner sounds like a neat idea RP wise, better than kidnapping from a fixed roulette. I also thought that beforehand there would be a scene where you sniff out the companion replaced by Orin as Tav too, but apparently it is only in the Durge run? At least, that's what I've heard. I've only recently started my Durge run and am still very much in Act 1 in that one, so I don't know. Either way, the whole Orin section could've been better and with Tav sharing their name with the Tav of the murder game that could be joined before the game's launch, it would've been cool had you also gotten more info about Durge as Tav, seeing as they do exist in that timeline and can be found dead in Orin's room. Act 3 feels very Durge centric. With reason, obviously, but I feel that the kidnapping was also created more with Durge in mind. They probably didn't want to explicitly state too much during the Tav run so the Durge run would have the oohs and ahs as a second or later run. Either way, next to Orin's kidnapping being a bit weird timewise and definitely annoying, Tav should also have had a look in from sides that the Durge run would for example not be able to get, but that's all easy wishes made after the facts.
That all said, the game is amazing and any wishes voiced here would just add more icing to an already well iced cake
Oh you only get the rush of saving the kidnapped party if you finish off the murder investigations and kill someone important. Then and only then will you end up losing that kidnapped person if you take a lot of long rests.
One thing I noticed in my playthrough was that it seemed like whether I let the tadpole burrow in my head or not I still had the negative dialogue as well as the options throughout trying to convince my companions to use that, however playing it more recently I lost the roll and got the tadpole, but didnt use it at all and the dialogue isnt there. Perhaps a stealth fix in one of the hotfixes or patches to fix a dialogue check. Talking about August playthrough to December playthrough so a lot happened!
This right here, I remember hearing that line and never used the 'authority' dialogue choices (and tadpole powers) because the game implied that using the powers had consequences. Ended up finishing the game without using a single mind flayer power
I’m pretty sure¹ that the netherbrain lied when they said that they led the Emperor. It is so perfectly matched to the fears of the emperor that I think he missed the mind trick played on him.
¹: as far as I can second-guess the writing team ☺
I disagree a bit. Several types of character just would not, especially monks and druids who would want to keep their bodies pure and natural. Clerics and paladins may not want to for religious reasons either. There might be no downside, it just would not be something they would do.
It also fits with the overall message of the whole BG series, all games are about how being evil is a choice you make not about the nature of your person. Illithid powers are not by their own nature evil, but their use can have evil outcomes.
Thus the Roleplay portion of it, the players choice.
I agree, but I think it's cool that the Oath of Vengeance Paladins might be the only order that would actually embrace the parasites, by their Oath they are essentially allowed to do anything if it means destroying the Greater Evil, and I could see those types of characters enhancing themselves (even if it came with great risk) in order to do that.
You are missing some important perspectives here. Yes there are no definite hard consequences (only soft ones, ie cosmetic consequences) of using the tadpoles. But you do not know that on your first playthrough. Yes, that means it's an illusion, since it's a psychological threat. A threat of a hard consequence, even if the threat isn't real. As such it still guides our choices when we first experience the game. For subsequent playthroughs ofc we'll realise that the fear of this threat wasn't real and it becomes now instead a choice of flavor or morality. What we think is right for our companions and our own character. And in that way it still mimics a real ttrpg in that sense, and offers a choice, offers style of play.
It really only becomes an issue if you are deliberately powergaming, ie vieweing it from a pure mechanics perspective, or if you are playing the new Honour mode. Because for the honor mode you will want to optimise and maximise as much as possible, and then the magic tadpoles becomes just freebies. And that is a problem, as there it definitely should have a hard consequence, but only really in that play mode.
Other than that I don't see a real issue at hand here.
Really well spoken
Why tease consequences if they aren't there? Feels like an unfinished thread or a plot hole. I get your point and one could argue it's the same case with other situations in the game (Volo's eye surgery for example, or sparing the hag), but I agree with video guy that the game would be much better if we face actual consequences (maybe after some abuse we need to eat brains or we die, like Gale needs magical items).
It seems to me there were supposed to be consequences but maybe they didn't want the players to face the consequences. I wouldn't mind but there are tons of people who would whine.
@@dominika3762 While it could be true, I don't but it. There are several cases in the game where the consequences can be dare, sometimes game ending. I think it's more related to a lack of time to finish all the stuff. It's easier to implement Vlakith/Gale/Astarion ending your game than it is to create a whole system that takes note on what you do regarding tadpoles and other Illithid features, and then react accordingly. They tried doing something like that with companions, where depending on your actions they would straight up leave you and/or try to kill you, but those are tightly related to cornerstones in their storyline, which makes these 'extreme' events easier to react to, whereas usage of Illithid power are more organic and scattered throughout the game. Just a theory though
@@iskabin I already answered that question in my post. The reason is psychological. You've never DM'd have you?
If you're used to games forcing you to do things, then having a pure RP choice that doesn't make or break the game might seem broken. The RP around the tadpoles is intense and feels integral to the story regardless of ones choices.
You're spot on. I resent this idea that there's ideal ways to play and things you are "meant" to do, or that you should do something just because you can and it would help you in some mechanical way, that is clearly not the case with this game and I love that. I decided for my character they would not want to avail themselves of these powers, absorb more tadpoles etc, I don't care if I could have without being materially punished nor do I care if someone else consider them to be 'key mechanics'. I get the sense a LOT of people forget the RP component of CRPG, if they even understand what it is.
It definitely feels like a cut feature that they removed for fun over story as the only time that I noticed a dialogue option would change based on if you used the Illithid powers or not was when you meet Jahira and drink the truth potion and want to say that you are resisting the illithid powers and if you used even a single skill from there you can't lie as you know you used them while on my current run I am trying to use none and I could actually say that line. It feels like there were probably more options and choices for it but they were definitely removed, I could totally have seen the more illithid powers you had you would get a negative modifier in act 3 against the enemies there or even trying to resist the astral tadpol
you have a saving throw on the astral tadpol if you use a lot of tadpoles on act 1 and 2
With Jaheira the option to say that you are resisting is still there if you used the powers, but the roll has disadvantage. I'm still not sure if using ilithid wisdom dialogue options counts towards that or not
I suspect their original idea was that you would forcefully become illithid in the end, but feared the backlash and changed it, so the player could choose.
I think having players auto fail certain dialogue tests or get penalties on them would have been enough to make it feel like a choice with consequences
The more powers you consume the higher the DC for you to resist accepting the Astral tadpole. The more you give to a companion the lower their DC to accept the astral tabpoles.
Ever since I found the bonus action tadpole use from the zaith'isk in the githyanki infirmary it's a must have now,. Using Black Hole and Mind Blast as a bonus action is crazy🥶
I always speedrun flight and perilous stakes. Perilous stakes is broken when you inflict it on an enemy and flight speaks for itself.
@@genghiskhan6809 damn shame that in honor mod it can only be used on allies
I think the Idea of Orin kidnapping the person you romance in the game or who has the highest Approval with would of been a good idea instead of the of four ppl who get taken
While I’d like to agree, the issue would be, being locked out of using that character for up to a significant portion of act 3. Instead, I would revise it to take the character you have the most affinity to that is currently at camp.
Nah, you probably invested more time building that character, also, they'll probably have your best items, she kidnapped Lae'zel who was my secondary tank and the items from her inventory going to my Tav was a drag...I think in this case they were right to move away from.
I like flying so much dont make them nerf it daddy redbeard
😂
This all day
Flying made Act 3 so much easier for me.
I made a conscious choice not to use the powers and I felt the consequences of that choice in enjoyable immersion-helping ways throughout the game. So for me there was choice and consequence. However, as you say, there are no negative consequences for using the powers so I imagine that had I used the powers I probably would have felt a bit let down.
Until watching this video I had not known there were no negative consequences for using the powers, and now looking back I feel as though I have missed out on some of the interesting content of the game in being able to use the powers, but I did experience the feeling (illusion) of consequences in my playthrough so that pretty much evens out for me. There is plenty of other content I have missed, and that is good for a second playthrough.
I honestly can't think of any *content* that you miss out on if you don't use tadpole powers. What you do miss out on is the power spike they offer in combat.
I agree, when I finished my first campaign with a friend, he used all the tadpoles available and I used none because I wanted to stay as pure as possible. His Tav was looking rough for the entirety of Act 3, but after we defeated the elder brain, he was all dandy once again, as if nothing ever happened. So in the end there are no downsides in using the tadpoles
There is one change to the game, but it's relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. The more tadpoles you consume, the harder it is to resist if you want to say no to the astral tadpole.
You can just destroy it for free instead. Theres no reason to keep it for later when there is literally no consequences to taking it at all
@@sixgm227 I dont intend to use it on my main char, but evolving minthara is kinda sick. So there is reason to keep for later
they explain it in the story, your gaurdian is keeping the negative effects of the tadpoles at bay. they explain it the first time you talk to them🤦♂️
The story deeply hints, as did the devs, that more usage would potentially lead to more issues. It makes sense that it would be more difficult to contain sixteen versus one. I love this game, but this does feel like an oversight in storytelling and mechanics based on how much the game and devs hinted at it leading to issues. A trade off, a choice.
@@RedbeardflynnRollsAOne yea, i see what you're saying. the first bit of the game every one is talking about the negative effects alot. but when the gaurdian talks to you that first time and tells you how they are keeping them at bay and encourages you to pursue more of them, i took it as them saying its basicaly a limited resource with no consequence. why would they encourage you to pursue and use the powers if they couldnt handle it? i guess they could have done something with the gaurdian being a victim of thier own hubris but it probly would have pissed alot of people off to be encouraged to use the powers the whole way throughy the game just to get kicked in the balls at the end🤷♂️
Larian missed an opportunity to give players alternative abilities from actively resisting the tadpole powers.
A dual-tree like that would have been awesome.
100% Negative effects for illithid users or positive effects for those who stay as pure as possible would have been amazing.
I get I can RP to create my own story or make the game as hard as I want but that is not the same as playing within the games writing.
The tadpoles literally put holes in your brain, roleplay wise if I'm getting those things out I don't want holes left behind when it leaves
I only played the last version of Early Access. However the more often you used the illithid powers would make the Dream Lover show up more, After the dream sequence with her you'd wake up and have access to more of the powers. I read an interview with one of the devs somewhere that the original plan with the Dream Lover was that it was in fact your tadpole and she would be trying to seduce/convince you into using your powers more often. By using your powers you were ultimately speeding up the transformation process. Ultimately an end of game scenario/cut scene would playout where it was possible that she takes over and you turn into an illithid but your mind was effectively cornered off and you were stuck in a dream of being in a pretty place down by the river. Which is where the theme song/motif came from.
I was really disappointed that there aren't any consequences to the powers now. Maybe the definitive edition of the game might somehow work that story back in, though I'm not really certain how that would play in with the Guardian story.
I get why Larian would dial back the consequences of using the Tadpole. Those powers would barely get used by most of the player base if they had long reaching and dire consequences.
They're not even that powerful with the exception of Luck of the Far Realms (which pairs insanely well with Paladins ironically). Other than Luck the only powers I find myself using regularly are Psionic Backlash and Charm (on squishy characters).
You said the choice is an illusion and that's what Mind Flayers are best at lol.
Hi, little old woman from Scotland here. In my first playthrough I wanted to experience everything I could so munched those tadpoles like there was no tommorrow. I baulked at the final one though cos I didn't want the tentacles! I have since played through without using them at all but missed Favourable Beginnings and the next one (sorry old brain has shut down and I can't remember what they are called) as well as the Psionic Backlash couple. I am playing again and will be selective when it comes to their use (Gale and I will take the "luck" ones and Astarion can have the rest). xxx (Luck of the Far Realms!!!)
Thank you for sharing! And hello from the U.S.!
Warning, giving them to Astarion doesn't save you. I did basically this on my first playthrough, using Astarion as a lab rat to see what effects the tadpoles would have on him. But when I got to the astral tadpole scene, the narration acted as if I'd been gulping them down like an all-you-can-eat buffet and the wisdom check not to become illithid was very high, even though my main character had only used one extra tadpole. After a lot of internet research, I concluded that the game doesn't differentiate between different characters' brains, it just totals up all the tadpoles used for the whole party and acts as if they were all used on your main character. There's a similar issue with losing approval for things companions do (brainwashed Astarion bit Lae'zel and I lost approval with her). Hopefully they sort this out.
It’s interesting. I don’t see it as a misstep at all. I love the fact that the very thing some characters harp on and on about literally only benefits you, if you choose to use the powers. I think it was genius of them to make it this way, many people are scared to use them due to only fear. I took it as a lesson in letting the feet of the unknown drive your actions, and when you actually don’t give in to fear, you can greatly benefit from that. I think the idea of every action having some negative consequence is precisely the issue, sometimes there isn’t any downside and only benefits, but fear can make us not even try things and partake in the benefits…simply because of fear itself.
Idk if anyone else had pointed out in comments but there is also no REWARD at all, not even epilogue choices, for not using the powers. My first run, completely blind, I listened to concern after concern from party members about using the power to the point where any who even gave half a though of using it, I convinced them not to. Imagine my surprise at the sheer BLINDSIDED way the plot moved to force someone to become an illithid (yourself, Orpheus or Karlach) or what you strove for Lae'zel's arc to suddenly come to a screeching halt. A whole two and half chapters worth of story convincing you how terrible it is to use the powers and to give a glimmer of false hope that you can beat it without an illithid power or need to become one as the Emperor pushes.
.........Only for it all not to matter in the end........
Ugh.
I was so upset and angry to learn not only there was no downside to using the powers; but there was no reward for not using them either.
Every run after my first and looking into things I convince my party just enough to give everyone the luck and cull the weak skills as its far too handy to have with no downside.
I think the main reason for people not using the tadpole powers without needing to worry about any consequence, is because a lot of players like having their characters look good, and unless your on the PC and you have the mod that removed the dark veiny look you get on your face when giving in to more powers later on in the game you'd just be stuck with that ugly looking face for the rest of your playthrough and not everyone likes that, some do and I think most don't.
The whole game seems themed around the theme of either giving in to the temptation of power or resisting. ❤
All the characters have the seduction of power written into their storylines as well. Astarion seeks power through becoming the Vampire Ascendant, Shadowheart becoming a Dark Justiciar of Shar, Lae’zel a Gythyanki knight recognized by Vlaakith, Gale a God, Dark urge Bhaals chosen and for Wyll and Karlach we can see were the pattern breaks and most likely rewrites and cut content come in. Karlach has a storyline with the soul coins, thats her draw to power but it goes nowhere and there are no consequences for soul coins but we know that going to Avernus is cut content and we can’t go to the upper city of Baldur’s Gate and save her like was originally planed so maybe thats why. Wyll since he is a warlock, he sold his soul to Mizora for his powers maybe there was something with his storyline that was similar with him resting the temptation of power. ( it certainly would explain the spicy early access official game art of Mizora with her hands all over Wyll 🔥)
The song down by the river even foreshadows the dream lover (now guardian) tempting you the whole game. My guess is they changed the way the tadpole affects the gameplay around the same time they changed the dream lover from seducing you to being a guardian and it had a ripple effect. 💧
Wyll's temptation for power would/could be fueled by Mizora/MC or even himself to become a duke and have political power. He had different personality in EA and it would make sense for him to consider chasing power more or less actively. Currently in the game if you manage to break his pact and save his father he realistically has no reason to become a duke, only the scenario where he's pacted to Zariel eternally and father is dead is logicall as he thinks to replace him but also its what Mizora wanted the whole time.
On Karlach side it could be a mechanic that the more soul coins she consumes the more the engine becomes possesed/volatile and it would be not available to fix by Gondians in the upper city after some treshold of coins overuse, leading to the Avernus fail state thats currently in the game.
@@skandre7776 I totally agree! I think this is what was planned before they cut as much content as they did, most likely to reach their release deadline. The game feels unfinished especially in act 3, I like Larian as a studio ♥️ but even they won’t fix problems until fans complain, thats why we are getting evil endings so late, finally through patch 7 and we didn’t have them on release. I would also say that the halfling Helia (datamined from EA) was replaced with Halsin but Helia being a werewolf would also be tempted towards power/ making deals to cure her lycanthropy 🐺 not making Halsin a werewolf or werebear was a missed opportunity to have him tied into the plot more than just the shadow cursed lands. Halsin’s story could have been that he was bitten by a werewolf when attacked in the forest and then brought to goblin camp and then couldn’t return to the grove until he was cured.
If you ended up unlocking a lot of powers before receiving the astral tadpole you'll have to do a high saving throw or else you automatically use the astral tadpole. That's the only real ''consequence'' that comes to mind. I do get the feeling they probably had the idea of forcefully turn the player into a Mind Flayer you used any of the powers so guess they decided against that.
the only thing I would like to be added, is when you give them worms to a companion who wanted it (astarion for example) I would really like to have the choice to make him an illithid in the end, instead of best girl, my tav, or the prince. when I came to that part of the game I felt like I didnt have all the choices, so I exploded gale instead
I didn't use it for 2 reasons: #1: Forums kept saying you'd get a bad ending and be absorbed by the brain, so I opted not to use it. #2: I was playing a Paladin, and a Paladin shouldn't use evil powers.
Thanks for the info. I am in early game and have not come across any more tadpoles yet, and was worried that there would be more negative effects, or would turn an essentially good playthrough evil.
I can't disagree more with making further consequences for using Illithid powers. There's already a finite number of them available to begin with, not even enough to use on a full 4 party team. I wanna keep the comment short but i could go on, such as how hard it can be on other difficulties to even get some of the party to agree to use them.
There's fucking plenty for a full party of 4, what are you smoking?
Also so what? It's not like the games hard without the powers. I've completed multiple honour mode runs without issue and have never even touched illithid powers on any of my characters on any of my runs.
There are plenty of tadpoles to go around. You don't need or even want all the powers on everyone. You should be specialising into one or two trees for each character, at most. More is a waste because a) some powers are just kind of bad and b) some powers are really only good for certain classes / archetypes.
I looked up very early on if illithid powers had any kind of consequences, when the answer was no, I was like "sweet! Let's abuse this!" I am genuinely surprised so many players didn't look it up.
I did look it up and decided not to use it anyway
People want to not be surprised. I searched up nothing for my defrost play-through. Missed a bunch of stuff in Act 3
Great video, keep it up. I just subbed.
And yes, I agree with all of your points. I hope Larian listens.
The consequence is no longer being hot when you fail the roll and are forced to evolve. The illithid face looks horrendous and I won't use tadpoles so I can avoid it. But for people who don't care about what their character looks like, yeah there are no consequences lol. It's also very immersion breaking when no one acknowledges your messed up face after evolving, everyone talks to you like you look perfectly normal.
there's a lot of evil in the real world, I like being a good guy in RPGs
Same honestly.
I only allowed my main character as the one to ‘take the hit’ of using the powers, thinking that some final interaction would prove much more difficult had the whole party used tadpoles.
I'm actually glad it's not punishing to choose to use the illithid powers.
Just the idea that there *might* be negative consequences down the line was all it took to convince 70% of players to avoid them. If there were actual negatives to them, then that number's going to be closer to 90%. At that point why even bother having the system in the game if almost no one is going to engage with it? What if choosing to use illithid powers at the beginning, has now made the game impossible to finish 100+ hours later?
Also it's a really cool, thematically-appropriate system.
I suspect that's exactly the reason they left out negative consequences for using illithid powers. Just too many ways for this system to make the game less fun rather than more fun.
At least, IMHO.
Lae'zel did mention to me in my 3rd play through, that she was disappointed in me for using the ilithid powers, but she would overlook it. This was the only play though that I romanced her, so that may have something to do with the trigger for that dialogue.
On my second playthrough... i realized you cant turn down the emporer for the astral tadpole anymore. Before you could just pop it in your inventory. First playthrough we abused the tadpoles. On the second playthrough we decided to not use them at all. So when i didnt have a choice on the astral and failed the decently high save for my character in the scene. I had to use all 4 of my inspiration. And crit failed 2 of the times and failed the other two... and sadly had to reload my save and redo the fight. And since my BG3 partner and i were so determined not to use tadpoles. Seeing if maybe it may have some impact on the ending using 0 of them.
On my first run I did not use the powers until the beginning of act 3 because I also expected some unwanted impact. It feels like a really important decision so it is strange that it has pretty much no impact.
That being said I tried becoming part illithid in act 3 and have done it every run since because the powers are so damn cool and I don't want to miss them. I guess the Emperor was right about that xD
To me, all of it is explained simply because the party is being protected by Orpheus.
Orpheus has not only stopped the influence of the elder brain and nether brain, he has stopped your ceramorphesis completely so it makes sense that you can abuse tadpoles and be immune to any negative effects.
My reasons
1. I dont want to be ugly
2. I constantly forget that their there
3. I dont want to be ugly
Having trouble getting Gale and Astarion taking the upgrade ithid power after starting from an early save. Help
I liked finding out that the tadpoles had no negative consequences, because I didn't use them on my first playthrough. Now that I am playing for the second time, it will be fun to explore the illithid side.
Two hundred hours, lots of characters created, never used illithid powers
I’m purposely not using the powers for the RP in my first play through
We all want the tadpoles out of our heads, so why make them stronger or more difficult to remove
There was a deliberate shift by Larian in the latter part of early access, towards the use of Illithid powers. That change manifested with a change of the tone of the dialogue from the Guardian, which originally seemed to give much more dubious advice, causing me (and many, many others) to reject its advice and avoid using the tadpole for anything, not even for 'controlling' others who are marked with the Absolute's sign. Those early Guardian dialogues were changed substantially, to make the urging to use the tadpole less obviously suspect.
I'd guess that when Larian looked at its feedback in early access, they found that hardly anyone was using tadpoles, which was a significant part of the game. To counter this and get players to use a part of the game they had (mostly) been ignoring, they not only changed the Guardian''s dialogue to give a less suspect slant to things, but very possibly (I cannot be certain) removed the consequences that they had planned for later, to further encourage tadpole use.
Even with the changed dialogue which makes tadpole use seem more beneficial, along with the (possible) removal of consequences for using multiple tadpoles that they had planned for earlier, many players are still rejecting tadpole use, so I doubt Larian change things any time soon to have more serious consequences, if you do use them.
However, just possibly, when the game has been out long enough for it to be general knowledge that tadpole use is almost consequence-free, Larian just might (re)introduce other consequences further into the adventure, so their usage becomes a weighted choice to use or reject, with some idea of the consequences of indulging, even wallowing, in their use.
I'm surprised only 30% of players were reported to use the Illithid powers. They're so fun and cool.
My first character never used tadpole powers for character reasons...Gale on the other hand is currently levitating everywhere and turning into a displacer beast.
They make it more difficult to convince party members to accept the tadpole powers because you have a finite number of tadpoles to collect, so they want you to get one party member fully unlocked. Otherwise, you have several members that won't get all the more advanced powers. There is penalty with a couple powers lowering your health to heal another or damage another.
I fully embraced the tadpole power, but only for one character. I figured if there's something bad I would just sent her to camp and use a different character to finish the main quest.
the way I approached my illitid powers was "im going to get rid of my tadpole eventually but I might as well use it while i have it" which lead me down the path of accepting my transformation and becoming a mind flayer. I didnt like the cost of losing my face tbh that was hard to grapple with.
There is a consequence.
You have to watch the icky yucky insect worm burrow itself into your squishy squelching brain accompanied by freaky music
Hahah! fair, it is pretty gross.
For me it was moreover just that I didn't notice I had ilithid powers at the ready. I was just collecting parasites without even realizing that I could use them to grow stronger.
I found it out in Act 2 when I was looking to get rid of them because they just took up inventory space.
I will say this, unless you do the very specific thing you need to do in the crèche to make the Illithid powers bonus actions, most of them are not worth it. It only becomes OP if you do the thing at the crèche.
The real problem is here,is that you gain nothing by resisting to use them.
I can get on board with this. Even just some dialogue acknowledgements of it would have been nice.
I read somewhere that they had planned on there being more consequence for using them and when there was no one was using them. You can see from the stats how few players use them even without consequence and I think they just felt like they worked hard making this cool system for the tadpoles and didn’t want people to be afraid to try it.
That said, I haven’t used them just for the roleplay reason.
It is definitely a problem that is going to be addressed, but even if it is not i wouldn't mind, they've done a wonderful job already
I see the decision as a kind of supplement for not being able to level beyond 12. It gives you access to greater power in a non-traditional way
I'm saying this as someone who deeply loves the game, with over 900 hours in - Larian either made too many radical changes based on player feedback during EA, and should have had some conviction with their original artistic visions OR they didn't give themselves enough time to fully flourish what ended up being a different version of the game entirely. Originally, this game was intended to have much higher stakes, consequences, and a much darker tone.
Abusing Illithid powers gave Daisy (your then sentient tadpole who was the crux of the game's premise, and who the song "Down By The River" is about, but has since been scrapped) the ability to communicate with you outside of your dreams and behave more creepily and forcefully toward you. Additionally, True Souls would be able to dominate you. If you didn't use the tadpoles, you didn't get access to Daisy's storyline. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Of course, it's important to listen to your audience, and some of the changes they made were for the better, but upon making so many fundamental changes to the game, it probably should have spent another year or two in development before being released.
I am apart of the 33& and I struggled with the decision. Yet the power for a Wizard is so tempting. So I ate the worm so no one else got it LOL! I have had a good play through up till the 3rd act then decided to give into my urge for more power. I will see where it leads. Looking forward to more power for my wizard.
I’m pretty sure Larian wanted to make everyone happy so I don’t think there are any long-term decisions that impact the adventure hard for this reason. You can ultimately reload and lose only a few hours.
Theses altered tadpoles in BG3 even leaves interpretation for the player on what becomes of the original soul after transformation.
I actually like how there's no gameplay effect. It's purely a moral decision on the part of the players, do they shove aside their humanity for power or salvation, or do they struggle but stay true to themselves? If there is a negative to the illithid powers, it changes things into a tactical decision.
It is noticeable that, in particular in Act 3, the game goes to great lengths trying to convince you that becoming a Mindflayer is actually a good thing. The Emperor is constantly talking about it, you have the dialogue option to convince your companions to become Illithid regardless of how often you said "no" before, and in the final mission being a Mindflayer is said to be the key to victory. Following this line, it totally makes sense that using the Ilithid powers has no negative consequences whatsoever.
This is extremely odd, however, given the premise of the story being us trying everything to avoid exactly this fate. And it also makes total sense that the majority of players don't touch those worms with a stick under this premise. Not sure what message Larian was going at writing-wise, but there we are.
I took the powers for role playing reasons...but once I found you get the ability to fly at will I then convinced everyone in my party that had to option to accept the powers as well...I alos think there should be a reaction to your appearance by towns folk and vendors much like walking around as a vampire in Skyrim.
At first I didn’t use the astral touched tadpole because I didn’t like how my character would look. But after my first play through, I use it now. Especially in honor mode.
I ate all the tadpoles in my ‘jack of all trades’ run. Helped out a lot in staying useful 😉
When talking to Wyll, he mentions that since getting his tadpole, he has lost access to his most powerful abilities. Maybe originally, the idea was your characters' abilities got weaker the more you invested in the illithid powers as they block and replace your original powers and abilities.
I feel like the whole game would have been more rewarding if there was some benefit to not using the illithid powers, while using them offered great powers but came at great costs. For example using too many tadpoles would makenit nearly impossible to avoid becoming half and then full illithid by the end of the game and would influence possible end game paths for you, you lost too much of yourself to fight against the control. On the other end I think not using the powers and extra tadpoles should give you increases mental defenses and better saving throws on mental checks, perhaps even some other perks who knows.
I didn't hesitate... I convinced my entire party to use the power, and then I also convinced my entire party to use the astral tadpole. Permanent fly and Black Hole are just too good...
The *only* impact I saw was some characters reacted in shock that I used the tadpole in my second run.
While the consequences aren't seen until Act 3, it is still there. My first run, I consumed zero tadpoles. I could outright refuse the astral tadpole, no saving throw required. On my honour mode run, I gobbled those tadpoles up like gummy worms and had to beat a DC18 saving throw to resist consuming the astral tadpole.
The choice of using the tadpoles power at least for me came mostly down to roleplay purposes. Nowadays when I start i campaign in this game I ask myself in the beginning of the game "Would this character fall to the temptetion or necessity for power that the tadpole gives" and through that question I make like entire backstroies in my head for why a charactere would/wouldn't do it.
Like my first ever character was a Half-orc Paladin who did give into the urge but only because he wanted to protect those around them. With this i made choices based of if my character might be more tempted by what they saw as "protecting their friends" but was more of a power grab the later I got into the game.
I guess most playeres aren't as roleplay heavy as I am when it came to those powers and I can definitely see the lack of gameplay elements to support this "dark side power" but to each their own.
I understand the percentage since there's so much in the game you'd have to google to know or find out the hard way. i defintely refused to use any of them since the narrative really was about not trusting them until I googled it to see if there really was any benefit or consequences for using them. and i get why they made that choice for the kidnapping since as soon as it happened I googled and saw how many people thought the same, that we should go there asap to rescue them. so with that said, i hope maybe in the future, like how they introduced honor and custom modes, maybe they could make a change where the kidnapped one is the one with the highest relationship or has tripped a flag, and maybe they could add a sort of debuff or chance to lose control of your character at certain points depending on how many you've used.
Yeah that was really disappointing, I never did for because they warned us and when I looked it up after was really annoyed that it didn't.
Im in love with this game but you totally hit the point in this video
In my opinion most impactfull change of using astral tadpol can be also easly underestimated. Especialy if you can be already "conditioned" they are not so impactful.
It will be a bit different for every player as depending on how much you are minmaxing your team, ithilid powers might be crucial or almost useless (they are never useless, but might seem so).
If you have team that can do heavy hit with each action point then unsing ithilid power for same action point in case of most of them is just waste.
Most of powers my character take is not to get interesting ability but just to stack number of powers for culling the weak.
Next one I use would be backlash against caster, autocrit and flight (from astral tadpole).
While they can make some points of fight easier they are usualy not make or break for character. And when you get used to them, they are "background" skills that you can leave control off to autouse without player imput and by that stop noticing their existance and impact on fight.
It is a bit like taver brawler for monk. Mostly "must have" ability. But only active choice player makes is to pick it as perk or not. Rest of it is "engine background". Not having it changes monk a lot, but after few hours of playing you can forget about its impact, just take it for granted.
With exeption of flight. That is best Ithilid ability ever. But as I have already stated, this impact can be underestimated untill you start actualy relaying on it in combat.
It makes controling fight different enough to clearly notice impact of that skill. You need to actively use it each time, so you feel its impact constantly especialy if you have characters without it too.
Only character that won't nesseserly feel it as much are those with high STR and free action to use jumps often.
But even flight is not "core" part of any build and for big part of game (pre astral tadpol) you can use it mostly scaresly, so you need to have good way of handing fight with "just" walking.
Even as player that will make almost everyone in my team to transform still, I would feel way more loosing flight after half of game when it is already part of my combat rutine than gaining them after half of game.
When I made no ithilid powers run, I was not actualy missing them so much as till point they become significant for some encounters I know I cannot relay on them and have ways of compensating.
In the end Ithilid powers can be not used only becuse you won't notice impact not using them if you first havn't went through with heavy utilisation of them.
And bad side of being halfithilid is in my opinion as impactfull as benefits. Especialy for character you do dialogs with, those visual changes are ugly as hell. That might be good enough reason to not use them at all.
I avoided tadpoles on my first run because I didn't want them affecting my mind or something.
I eventually did a full illithid run but after that I just avoided the tadpoles again. They make things a lot easier with almost zero downside (the astral tadpole visual change is a big no for me.)
It's easy enough to do some hand-wavey RP, but some actual consequences would be great.
I went half illithid in one playthrough. I always use the regular tadpoles, but honestly, I always play Drow (who are notoriously vain) and not a huge fan of the cosmetic changes. Then again, I'm also a big Astarion fanboy (incapable of romancing) anyone else, and if HE can still love my half-illithid form, well.. hell. But I usually give the Astral tadpole to like Gale or someone else. Even tho I know it technically gives the best powers lol
Me too. I just avoided convincing others, because I preferred them to look as they are and this would ruin Astarion too much. On my drow with the face paintings, the change was even suitable...
Want nothing to do with those yucky wormsquids. The animation of unlocking new illithid powers says enough in my opinion lol
Same
There should be some negatives for using them but maaan i would have been infuriated if orin took laz'eal from me , she's like 70% of my fighting force in any battle
I feel like a good drawback would be doing half damage to the nether brain if you used the astral tadpole, it would feel bad for players during the first playthrough, but it could be a save, like the netherbrain is trying to take control of your tadpole and youd start holding back or something. I personally don't use illithid powers because it makes the game significantly easier. Like, the first hit being a guaranteed crit on something like a paladin or straight rogue (especially getting the armor in act 3 that gives you murder aura) could pump out absolutely disgusting damage and swing fights. Everyone who's played dnd knows the value of action economy and the first turn or 2 is generally used as a nova round
I have over a hundred hours in the game, playing couch co-op with my wife. I made my favorite character, in so much as I could, in the game, but haven't finished it. We're waiting to finish it together, and have other mutual interests (mostly tabletop). I've tried to avoid spoilers, but here we are.
My character has used almost all the tadpoles and gotten all the fun powers, and I've just been waiting for him to become an Illithid out of nowhere or something. However, it makes sense for my character to use what he has, to use powers he has access to, with the hope that they can just find a way to shut down tadpoles eventually. That's why he's doing it, so it's kinda nice to know that his potentially dumb sacrifice is potentially not dumb. I fully expected degradation and companion backlash with all the cosmetic changes. I like the idea that he thinks he's making this big sacrifice and eventually his hopes will be right, as bleak as they might seem.
Makes for a pretty great first playthrough. Nice to know the larva aren't going to ruin the ending I've worked for.
i kinda resist the powers as part of an rp aspect. or i'll use them at a minimum. (i have a couple saves where my characters go whole ham into the powers and a couple that ignore them completely)
I used my illithid powers extensively on my first playthrough and i could not resist not turning into a half illithid
I felt like the consequences were unnoticeable. But I also have to try to gain without using them all the way through.
The current impact is RP, cosmetic, & knowing that your friends could call you "Noodles" in future dlc. You awaken during a long rest to tentacles bursting from your face and the realization that your favorite hat will never fit again.
This feels like an oversight from Larian’s part. And not the only inconsistency pet peeve i have either.
-SPOILERS FOR DARK URGE
Similarly on how no one recognizes the Slayer form. Hella even Jaheira when confronting me was saying how I was hiding my true nature.. I had literally used Slayer form IN FRONT OF HER. Also how come none of the Bhaalists don’t recognize me or especially the slayer form? Correct me if I’m wrong, but only one bhaalspawn is able to have the form. So how come it is unnoticed by bhaalists? Sure the changelings in the sewers do but that’s it.
I always took that as the parasite blocking things a bit. Kinda like how Astarion can be in sunlight and thus masking his vampire nature while under the influence of the absolute
@@Rodshark75 but it doesn’t explain why none of the Bhaalists don’t recognize something so important to their religion. Dolor for example did not have tadpole.
Yep, I didn't have expectations for a negative outcome, but definitely some kind of consequence. We see this in a few areas for sure tho, so many people make the deal with the hag for the stat boost. The "good" outcome for killing the hag is a lot of rubbish without even a close to equal or unique reward.
I feel like the negative outcomes for failing to endure the Zaith’isk (permanent -2 CON, -2 WIS, -2 INT) was the kind of thing that they originally intended to include as a legitimate risk for delving into your tadpole powers. But I do also wish there were more things like this in the game to make those powers feel as (mechanically) gilded as the narrative implies. Especially when the Zaith’isk problem can be entirely circumvented by save scumming.
One of the wikis claimed the astral tadpole would cure the Zaith'isk penalties. (I have not verified this.)
I like the Zaith'isk success boon, so I prepare with save bonuses and inspiration. My 1st playthrough let Laezel go into the Zaith'isk and she was penalized, but I never subjected her to a tadpole.
Well in their defense for the stats at least because I agree there should be a down side worse than oh no I don't look like my intended character anymore (potentially) depending on how you go through act one you might not really have any reason to use them before act 2 in my first play through as a monk I had no idea what was going on so when I encountered the first true soul dead with his siblings I resisted that one and didn't use it and didn't get another chance to until killing the goblin leaders hours later and just before going to the mountain pas and headed into act 2
there's also a couple of bugs on the console version too, game is still amazing and having a blast playing it but sometimes the game has some really annoying glitches for the camera and bugs like when I'd summon the ogers they just stand around and do nothing in a big fight, just lil things like that
I never used the powers, as I’m not that keen on that idea. I’ve deliberately gone for the plot line that is against them.
Personally, I RP a lot in my BG3 characters. And my very first character, when I knew close to nothing about the game, was a Oath of Vengeance Paladin who would use any power at her disposal to fulfill her oath and seek vengeance on the illithids. Therefore, it was only logical she would choose to partake in the illithid powers (and, ooc, I wanted to see what they would do). Her character is one that would go down the rabbit hole and fuck the consequences as long as she accomplished her goal.
However, I later made a character who is a wood elf druid whose goal is to cleanse nature of corruption. Therefore, this character would never succumb to the illithid powers. It doesn't make sense for her to do so, if her goal is to cleanse corruption, to allow herself to become corrupted.
I really like the RP implications of the choice here. I do acknowledge the mechanical issues that come from not being clear about the consequences (specially the fact that there are none, but it's possible Larian intended for there to be more dire consequences and it just didn't make it into the game). And it's a bit of a shame that a lot of people don't get to experience some of the more fun illithid powers. That being said, the game is completely fine to play without them. It's even a bit more fun, since I consider a few of those powers to be a bit too strong and they clutter the icon menus.