These Face Tattoos are NOT Viking
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- čas přidán 17. 12. 2023
- Chin stripe tattoos and "warpaint" eye stripes have been coming up with a #viking hashtag on social media recently, and let me tell you there is nothing Old Norse or Viking whatsoever about either of them. They just happen to appear in that TV show (yes I know in the show it's blood on Lagertha's chin, but let's not pretend).
They are, however, an integral part of the tattooing and body painting traditions of many living cultures, and have been for centuries, with complex and fascinating meanings behind them that have been passed on for generations.
Many cultures around the world have seen a resurgence in their tattoo culture in recent decades, often following many years of suppression, oppression, and legal moves against their traditions, clothing, and even spiritual practices.
So is there any evidence for Viking body or face paint? Is there any evidence for Old Norse tattoos? Is describing these designs as "viking" insensitive? Should they be left to those who have a legitimate cultural claim to them? Is describing these and other designs as "viking warpaint" inappropriate?
Am I exhausted, jet lagged, and sick of searching "viking war paint" at one in the morning?
Let's have a little look!
Some reading: kuaainaassociates.com/tattoo-...
thebolditalic.com/please-don-...
www.ctvnews.ca/canada/rise-in...
• Why Getting Her First ...
canadiangeographic.ca/article...
www.vogue.com/article/in-alas...
dirtyeyeballart.com/blog/appr...
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The young woman shown at 0.45 in the video has paint, not tattoos. The image was meant to appear at a different timestamp.
Apologies for the error!
"there are no primitive cultures" I truly appreciate this insight.
@@McOdinson please define "primitive" objectively
Technologically primitive (from our point of view) is one thing but I guess science has shown that the cultural aspect shows that most - if not all cultures were not primitive.
@@McOdinson oh bless ... how naive of you to have no understanding of the difference between culture and technology
Incorrect
THIS! I majored in anthropology and the professor in one of my core (mandatory) courses went so far as to deduct a percentage from our paper grades for every time “primitive” was used as anything other than what it actually describes
As a mixed Indigenous person who has to deal with this at just about every Ren Faire, convention, and living history event: THANK YOU.
I'm so tired.
Then if you educate, you’re the asshole. Boo, I feel you.
@@basicallyno1722 Eyup. I am the party pooper because I don't want people to look hawt. That's exactly what it is.
Thank you! I’m very glad it’s ok and helpful :)
Also I’m so sorry you have to deal with this so much. It must be utterly exhausting and disheartening to encounter such frequent and entrenched ignorance.
More than you know. While things have certainly gotten better since the 70s and mainstream Americans know that there are (still) Indigenous people around, they don't know what that looks like. So unless someone with traditional facial tattoos or dressed in regalia corrects them, they just assume we're there to wreck the party. They are more likely however, to listen to a fella with a youtube channel and academic credentials on the internets. And you said one of the quiet parts out loud in this video: Facial markings look COOL (I wish my tribe had a tradition of facial tattooing, too) which puts them at ease.
Another indigenous culture that practices chin stripes tattoos and face tattoos in general is the amazigh. It's actually several cultures indigenous to North Africa, all with their own meaning for their tattooing. My grandfather was Kabyle, and though there isn't anyone in my family with those tattoos (due to the religious pressure of Islam), it's not uncommon to see older maghrebi women wearing them. There's a movement of "cultural reapproriation" where the North African youth and the diaspora are trying to bring back this aspect of our cultural heritage. Even some men are doing it now, and I'd love to get a line from the lip to the bottom of my chin one day.
Oh and I love how so many indigenous cultures around the world share similar traditions, though
it makes me irrationnally angry to see white people who worship the Vikings using it as makeup and claiming to have this cultural heritage that they don't have. Thank you so much for bringing up this topic.
As a tattoo artist based in Stockholm, I swear if I got a dime every time I was asked to do a « viking » tattoo … aka, of course the freaking Vegvisir I’d be a millionaire 😅
Thank you for making this video, I’m so bloody sick of seeing people thinking Vikings wore face paint (including chin lines) just because of that silly History Channel tv show. It’s the modern version of the “Vikings wore horned helmets” thing from the 1800’s.
Also, Vikings weren’t dressed like bikers 🤣
Yet another thank you for addressing this trend and traditional practices. Oh, and yeah, another anthropologist here saying NO to the "primitive culture" label! Keep up the most excellent work !!!
Thank you. I don't care of people wear makeup for fantasy cosplay or whatever - but I don't like them trying to portray this as historical fact - which is it not. And it's so rude to steal those beautiful, and amazing tattoo's from elsewhere. And thank you especially for saying "There are no privative cultures". Thank you again for everything ❤❤❤
The Vikings TV show on the history channel *really* needed a South Park like disclaimer at the beginning of each eepisode.
Every time I've been to Wales it's been raining. If the ancient Welsh had used body paint in the morning, it would have washed off by lunchtime.
🤣 amazing take!
I mean, there's a little evidence we used woad in the iron age... but the same evidence would point to blue die for clothes
I think one of the worst things the show Vikings did was calling itself Vikings. It represents them as far more "historically accurate" than it was ever intended to be instead of giving it the distance it needs to exist as "Viking inspired fantasy" (which is a legit and super fun subgenre, as long as you appreciate that it is fantasy and made up). They could have called it anything else, "The Legend of That One Guy"; "Made UP Place Name" whatever, and it would have reduced how much people associate that show and it's aesthetic choices with known Viking history.
“Be excellent to each other”. And “don’t be a dick”
Words to live by.
I always thought the “Viking” face paint was cringy but never put together the appropriation part of it, that just makes it worse
I actually wasn't aware there isn't any evidence the Norse people used facepaint, that was something I'd always just kinda assumed was a thing. Thanks for educating me on this
People in Viking age Scandinavia had some interesting fashion ideas (flashy fabrics as a sign of riches? Rare, imported coins and things made into jewellery?), and some amazing hairstyles (seen some great extrapolations on braids on all genders and beard shapes and things from extant decorations from the period), but, *somehow* these never get employed by the types of people who do use the weird, culturally appropriating face paints. The real historic looks were so much more interesting guys, come on.
My favourite is the Allah ring from a grave in birka in stockholm historiska museet. Never seen those worn by viking bros.
@@jasminv8653 I'm pretty sure the same grave had some clothes with text from the Quran (might have been Hadith or prayers) embroidered along the border.
I have had a number of uncomfortable situations with people assuming my Tattoos were in a supposed viking tradition. (quick note, i am a german white man with long hair and a beard and have often been associated with vikings) I designed my tattoos as an expression of my connection to nature, consciously trying to avoid being influenced or borrowing styles from other cultures. on my left arm i have a tattoo of an old gnarled tree forming an infinity symbol (this is about having to have patience with others and with nature, to have lasting relationships) and people often instantly assume: oh thats Yggdrasil and often times in the next sentence go on to tell me , they want to get a vegvisir tattoo to connect them to their supposed viking heritage and so on.... I have made an active habit of trying to persuade them to look into the History of both Vegvisir and nordic Runic symbolism in general, shocking to see how little some people consider what they put on them and into the world.
I study design and i am often surprised how little people consider the history of certain imagery or styles.
As someone who studied Norse Culture since I was a kid and was a medieval reenactor I've known and have been bothered by this for a very long time, some people at events asked why I didn't paint my face, and I'd tell them "because Vikings didn't wear face paint like that Natives did/do" and boy some would get mad I'd say that.
I've seen similar comments made to Scottish re-enactors. According to Hollyweird (Braveheart mainly I think) Mel Gibson wore blue face and body paint because he was Scottish - Norman actually I think - and therefore obviously the Scottish all wore blue face and body paint in mediaeval times as a result.
@@ABC1701A People used to think the Pictish tribes were called Picts beacuse they were painted blue. Think Pict as in "picture". So that's likely were the whole blue face paint idea came from. Search up ancient Picts and you will find lots of images of blue painted warriors. But as this channel has said, only one Roman source described the Picts as being painted.
@@ABC1701A People used to think the Pictish tribes were called Picts beacuse they were painted blue. Think Pict as in "picture". So that's likely were the whole blue face paint idea came from. Search up ancient Picts and you will find lots of images of blue painted warriors. But as this channel has said, only one Roman source described the Picts as being painted.
@@varalderfreyr8438 Now that was something I hadn't heard before, I have always read that not much is really known about the Picts whether by the Romans or anyone else. I know that when the Romans arrived some of the Celtic tribes would wear woad ''paint'' and I always assumed that was why Hollyweird put Mel Gibson in blue, they were their usual inaccurate, incompetent selves when it came to historical accuracy. But either way it goes with their Braveheart being a time traveller, he was obviously either a Pict who liked the look of blue or a Celt who'd moved northwards and also liked blue rather than the actual bloke complete with his Norman background (don't think they painted themselves blue, no pictures of it at any rate) which was the genuine William Wallace.
I'm sure people will be incredibly normal and logical about this topic.
I'm sure.
🤣😂🤣
Only within this fanbase but I'm gonna share the vid in places where it needs to be seen so I can raise some heckles
I have already blocked many Entirely Reasonable And Normal Comments 👀👀👀
Thank you so much for pointing out the difference between Scandinavian culture and Rus culture in the viking age.
Generally speaking the people who scream 'appreciation not appropriation' are the ones who have no appreciation for the culture. There are certain aspects of a culture you can wear which is appreciation like certain types of Native American jewelry or pottery which they will more than happily give or sell to you which can be worn or displayed without offending the people whose culture it comes from. There's a world of difference between that and a drunken idiot wearing a Native American war bonnet at Burning Man which is basically the equivalent of me pinning a military ribbon rack to the front of a tshirt and drunkenly puking on it, I imagine people who are part of the military culture I took it from would have something to say about it.
Like the horned helmets that started as a fantasy element in entertainment, were not historically accurate, but are now a ubiquitous "symbol" of Viking-ness. The "Vikings" TV show slipped into broad fantasy in their designs, far from anthropological or archeological accuracy, and now there is a large population of folks who have taken those elements: hair braiding designs, face paints, runic and other tattoos- and they think this was a real thing. Videos like this are an attempt to get ahead of this "trend" and nip it in the bud before it gets too entrenched, like horned helmets. Like the old adage about a lie traveling around the world while the truth is still tying its shoes, getting ahead of mis-information is nearly impossible. But here's hoping!!
Horned helmets absolutely make zero sense in battle anyway…
@@basicallyno1722 Diodorus Siculus describes some celts to have had horns on their helmets (as well as entire birds), so it is not entirely fantastic that some helms with horns attached to them may have existed at some point in europe. There are also archeological finds of fish shaped helmets with forward facing spikes (representing dorsal fins). The problem is the conflation of 'wild' pagean medieval normen with 'wild' pagean classical era celts in arts of all kinds.
One purpose of the chin stripe tattoo is to mark the transition from adolescence to adulthood, signifying the coming of age. This rite of passage is crucial in native American cultures as it represents the individual’s readiness to take on adult roles and responsibilities within the community. Also, the chin stripe tattoo plays a significant role in marking the union of two individuals through marriage. In many native American tribes, marriage is considered a sacred bond and a vital aspect of community building.
while i am still a bit torn about the cultural appropriation part, i can respect that when indigenous americans for example actively ask people to not do that, people should just not do it. my main issue (as someone who has no emotional or cultural tie to those face paints) is, that people on instagram and apparently tiktok think they are so badass vikings or berserkers or shieldmaidens or whatever, when they paint their faces like that. its just stupid. while it looks cool imo, as you said it has nothing to do with what they think it does. people should do some research atleast
I think the US (i dont know about anywhere else) has a bad habit of watering down other cultural practices to make them a product. For instance modern Mindfullness is just Buddhism without Buddhism. If it works for you go ahead, but id rather learn about the various tradditions then go to a corporate mindfullness seminar.
One thing that might have been a possibility is the dark paint around the eyes. Speaking from experience (I did LARP in my younger days), dark paint around the eyes is great to reduce the glare from the sun, and as someone who is a little photophobic it did help when I couldn't wear sunglasses due to being at an event. it isn't too far fetched for people living in snowy climates to realise that rubbing a bit of charcoal into the skin around the eyes could help prevent snow blindness at least for a while.
isn't this a thing people do in sports? pretty sure i've seen at least american football players with it.
Yeah, but designs with specific meanings versus what's essentially old-school sunglasses are pretty different. . . You're not going to wear a full face of ritual makeup or war paint on a daily basis, but a few dark smudges of hearth charcoal under your eyes is universally practical and doable on a daily basis.
I think a lot of this stems from modern people of European descent wanting to explore their heritage but simultaneously being very ignorant about it, unfortunately. I think this is particularly the case in terms of “Celtic” peoples, and Viking Age Scandinavians. The consensus is to portray these peoples as we want to them to be rather than as they were according to the little evidence we have. The romantic image of the noble savage still appeals to the public subconscious and so they appropriate imagery associated with strong indigenous cultures from elsewhere.
The root to solving this is through education and understanding, and thanks to people like yourself we can start dispelling all these myths that appeal to the public subconscious.
I think it's also too broad to be able to do much with, it's like being a "medieval" reenactor where about all you can really do is put on reasonable peasant clothing and wear a necklace with the religious symbol on it.
wish more people up here would care about the more recent traditions that are currently dying out with the old people who've kept it alive, join a fiddle club and dance in folk clothing and shit
I completely agree. Many tiktokers have received education from the tribes they transgress, nd the allies. Aswell as scholarly debunking given all for free on social media. Unfortunately the amount that double down is incredibly high. Its infuriating, but I think it definetely comes from entitlement aswell as feeling a cultural hole. I mean our ancestors were not literate so it's sad but it is what it is. I have turkic ancestry too, but I am in no way connected to that as my ancestors reverted to Islam before moving to Europe, so I have no right to copy those still connected. I love that u put "Celtic" I've recently been educated on Celtosceptism and Celtiomania in Uni, and it was mind blowing the constructs that have us calling ourselves Celts. Technically we are and are not. I blame the language tree 🤣. It's a nightmare situation of academia.
Fantastic vid Jimmy! As a Cherokee and Norse Native, I really appreciate the truth of the facts here. It continues to infuriate me every time I see those “Indian” costumes with the feathered headdresses every Halloween. I wish people understood how little effort it takes to do just a bit of research before doing stuff like this.
Thank you for letting me know, I’m glad it’s ok :)
Fantastic video Jimmy! I really appreciated the respect and study you've put into this topic. My very lovely wife is a Māori academic with Ta Moko on her arm. The design wasn't chosen by her, but by the tattooist. It is a design that can be read, and shows various aspects of her life and where she is from.
There have been times where she's been recognised as a weaver by her markings.
Keep an eye out for the documentary: Marks of Mana 🤗
"Be Excellent to Each Other!" We should all channel Bill & Ted more often!
The other important element that this shows as you mentioned, is a lack of research, so it appears to me, to be more about the sexualization of Vikings as these dark brooding fierce beings than it is about learning any real facts about a culture, any culture really. I find it interesting that it seems like Americans in particular, ( I am one so) Like to find pieces that go along with the image they have of themselves as fierce magical warriors, and ignore the people where a lot of this actually came from. I also find it kind of horrifying that there is a leaning toward thinking these complex societies are primitive. But on the other hand, humans have been using that tool for centuries. I just expect more out of folks who like to say they are history buffs.
Came down here to say something similar!
I would (as a heavily tattooed person today) be very interested in some more discussion of the reality of tattooing during this era. I know several tattoo artists who struggle a lot when people ask for "viking" tattoos, because a lot of these people are either asking for racist tattoos or tattoos that are too similar to modern cultural tattoos.
give them a bluetooth symbol
There's several tattoo artists that use petroglyphs and woodcarvings (like on the stave churches) for inspiration, either combined with handpoke methods or machined. They collectively call this 'neo-nordic'. As the bearer of some original neo-nordic handpoke stuff, i can say that the tattoo artist i went to did his research and yet is very pragmatic about mating people's wishes with historical accuracy. Like using runic script but in modern spelling.
Modern-Edwardian wardrobe Jimmy is a welcome return 😎
Recently, I've been learning a lot about moko from a Maori musician named Turanga along with other aspects of Maori culture, and a common throughline is often cultural appropriation which, given what we've seen in the video, is very much a conversation that we still need to have (and I say this as someone who once wore warpaint style makeup as part of a university project where I played an Old Norse priest. I'd like to think I've grown since then).
Ooh. I'm Maori and want my moko kauae (chin tattoo) so this should be interesting.
Hope it goes great for you :)
@@TheWelshViking thank you for mentioning my people and tradition
Love the Moko. Everytime I see one I get strangly emotional and I don't know why.
@@juliaforsyth8332 possibly because they carry much spirituality?
I'm hoping I get my moko. I've been planning to do so for years, but I've been getting a lot of signs lately, so it's possibly the right time. I'm a descendant of a tohunga and matakite.
These videos are so valuable, because sometimes it's so hard to explain stuff like that in a clear, concise and not pissed off way, I always appreciate when someone arranges all the sources, evidence and arguments in a neat little package I can direct people to.
Thank you for addressing this! I've actually distanced myself from the 'viking reenactors' that follow the local fair circuit here. One of the things I enjoyed was the fact that there wasn't any facial makeup or tattoos associated with the Scandinavian cultures. Now there are vendors who, for a fee, will air brush patrons with 'viking war paint'. And of course, it's very popular. I waste my breath trying to educate people about this trend, they don't care to listen. Honestly, it's so very appropriative and ... just wrong, I find it very offensive. And I don't want to be associated with it. I wish people would read about the actual Scandinavian culture instead of taking Hollywood's word for it. There's a difference between history and fantasy. It's disheartening.
There is kind of an odd obsession with northern European metal music to try to emulate the old pagans without having the slightest clue what pagans were like, so they sort of just pull it out of their ass- often blending a lot of Viking stereotypes with Norse & germanic symbols & designs pulled from worldwide tribal cultures- Native Americans & Siberians, in particular. & I think this is the main driver of this sort of thing, honestly.
You'd be surprised(?) to hear how many actually think the Vikings TV series is a docu-drama... 😢
"people doing this without thinking " yea, a lot of that going on .
That kind of encapsulates social media, doesn't it...
I see many people claim they want cultural exchange without actually having any meaningful contact with indigenous or marginalized ethic cultures. Just annoyed because they feel that they can’t participate. I’d say approaching a member of a group so you can then claim that what you’re doing is cultural exchange means that it really isn’t a cultural exchange but cultural appropriation.
IF you happen to be interested in a real & scholarly telling of the history and intricacies of tattooing among the Indigenous folx of what's now the Southeast of the US, I highly recommend the podcast "Inchunwa." They're focused on revitalization & putting out info for tribal citizens but it's intentionally available for non-natives to help y'all understand what's up.
A relevant point: the word for what folx call 'war paint' and the word for tattoos is the Exact Same Word in a number of different Indigenous Turtle Islander cultures. They are considered to be the same thing, and in some cases tattoos BECAME paint because the skill of tattooing was lost or impracticable due to the effects of colonization.
A second relavant point I'd like to see mentioned more often: some of those 'cool' looking tattoos mean horrific things. It's part of what makes revitalization so dang difficult--tattoos are a promise to the ancestors as much as a sign to the living about who you are/claim to be. It's a bit difficult to put into culturally European terms but just imagine you thought something was cool and so "accidentally" but permanently marked yourself with an advertisement for necromancy services. YOU might not believe in necromancers, but how are you going to react when the people who do start popping up out of the woodwork like Dwarves to a Burgler-Hobbit's home? Yikes.
There are also plenty of motifs/patterns that are acceptable in a certain context, but in others mean something Very Different and Not Good. If you're a professional soldier, you might go in for a death design in a certain place as a prayer for victory in battle. But if it were put in a different place, it'd be seen as an indication you're into selling curses--not cool at all.
Last but not least: Yakoke Jimmy for taking the time to do this, and to have done it so throughly. It's hard to overstate how awful it is to see non-indigenous folx not only coopting our tattoos, but doing so when many of us (myself included) don't have inchunwa because we're painfully aware of how much info has been lost and have spent literal years doing research, talking to elders, praying & fasting, and waiting on the right person to do the tats to be shown to us!
Jimmy, you say "We know the vikings show is fantasy" as if all the viewers do, but I know people who can't tell the difference between Tolkien books and the Eddas because they both have a lot of the same names. Like, I personally know people who think the Vikings show must be pretty accurate because it's on the history channel, just like Ancient Aliens has credible theories, and the history channel has integrity.
Also as someone who's been around the Norse Pagan community for a while, there are LOTs of people who 100% think the face paint and tattoos are an accurate thing.
There are quite a few native women here in Alaska, young and old, who have traditional chin stipe tattoos. Thank you so much for this video!!! You are amazing and you continually inspire my love of history and the past of all people. Thank you for sharing yourself with us!!!
Somewhat adjacent to this topic, I'd be interested to see a video about what we do and don't know about Viking Age Scandinavian music, and where the modern pop culture understanding of what their music supposedly sounded like comes from.
THIS ^^^ I love that sound but I hate when they call it Viking when it almost certainly isn't lol
@@rin_okami Yeah I actually enjoy the genre as well. I know it's not "viking", but whatever it is it sounds nice
As far as I'm aware, we have literally nothing evidence wise in terms of actual Viking age music.
The stuff we hear via "viking metal" "Folk metal" etc etc can depend on what genre it is.
For instance, many scandinavian "viking folk metal" take their cues from either contemporary (that is to say, modern) scandinavian folk music and perform it using instruments that belong to Metal. The folk songs they're based on can be anywhere from a few decades (60's/70's folk revival) to generally as far back as the 19th or 18th century (they also had a folk movement back then too, coinciding with the Romanticism movement. None of these are genuinely "Viking". Scandinavian, but not Norse.
Other bands have been known to lean into a more medieval folk and in certain cases, their songs are pretty much direct covers of music we know was written during the medieval period. Corvus Corax is a band well known for this; most of their repertoire are songs literally transcribed from library collections. Converting medieval music notation to a usable modern version. Again though, not Viking age but more 14th-16th century generally speaking.
Then you have "Viking metal" which is more thematic lyrically than musically. Musically it follows the same family tree as most non-folk metal. So Death Metal, Battle Metal, Power metal. They actually are more related to classical music than anything else in terms of influence.
Finally you have the more recent kind of music such as that by Heilung, which I would argue is pretty close to the musical equivalent of cultural appropriation. Specifically with the use of throat singing. It too tries to evoke a "Tribal" or "Savage" imagery and attributes styles generally used by non-Germanic indigenous cultures to their own culture which is iffy to say the least. It's basically made up and I have my issues with it lol. Whilst there are bands out there such as say, Shaman or Korpiklaani who use throat singing in their music, theirs is at least appropriate to the culture they belong to (Shaman, later Korpiklaani used to bill themselves as Saami). Heilung's use of throat singing though is mainly in the Mongolian and Tibetan style. Another example of "this sounds cool, let's take it and pretend it's Germanic". Their sound is just experimental folk at the end of the day. If I was kind, I would call it a wishful thinker's interpretation of what bronze age germanic music sounds like. With heavy quotation marks on the "Interpretation".
At the end of the day, we're unlikely to know what Viking age music actually sounded like. We simply don't have any written down or otherwise recorded. The oldest Scandinavian song we know of "Drømde mik en drøm i nat" is from around 1300.
I wonder if the reason why the Old Norse people didn't have a tattoo culture is because they had a extremely strong metalsmithing culture. And through weapons and jewelry is how they communicated with each other. Because the cultures that did and do have strong tattoo cultures don't have equally as strong metalsmith cultures. You look at Old Norse jewelry and weaponry, there are usually complex designs all of over them. Old Norse graves are filled with jewelry and weapons telling of the dead's status. Stories involving smiths pop up in many Norse myths. So, I think that's why they didn't do tattoos. They didn't need to. They talked through metal instead. What do you think?
Ötzi (the iceman) had about 60 tattoos on his body, perhaps Europeans could appropriate some of these designs. I know he predates the early Middle Ages by several thousand years but his tatts might help the young people with their rheumatism and arthritis.
61 in fact! Mostly stripes we think were medicine :D
There are some Scythian mummies from Eastern Europe that have very elaborate tattoos that are extremely well-preserved. Some modern people have had tattoos inspired by them.
You should check out miniminutman, he actually got the Ötzi tattoos on himself.
I think the 5000 year old ice mummy from the Ötztal (Ötzi) did have some tattoos , presumably for medical reasons. Because they are on places on his body where there might have been pain (arthritis). But if later cultures like the celts and Vikings still used tattoos is lost to time.
When I watched the show vikings for the first time I thought WTF? Why do they look so different from anything I ever imagined a Viking would look like. It’s pure fantasy and as I now know cultural appropriation. I liked the show as a fantasy but never thought it accurate in any way.
But I am afraid this new imagine of Vikings is going to stick just like the horned helmet did.
Shall we call it modern day Victorian-ising? 😂 Just to give a little nod of remembrance lol
Thank you for speaking out on this issue. The sacred markings of indigenous women are not sexy cosplay for other folks. People Care = learning about and respecting the traditions of other people groups, and not appropriating them.
Sadly, Maori are still discriminated against due to their Tā moko. A friend's been refused entry to pubs and bars due to her moko kauae, and suspects it's why she was declined for several rental properties.
Also, if I win the lotto, I and sending you to get your Merlin tattoo!
Oh, also worth noting that the people who will scoff at this video are likely also the sort of people who would LOOSE. THEIR. SH!T. at the thought of 'stolen valour'.
@@lordhank77 Agreed but to be strictly accurate you should spell it ''stolen valor'' because they are often from a country that can't spell 'properly' :)
Your friend should definitely report those pubs. That is illegal.
@@tinyfreckle Things like that have never worked. There are pubs in Vancouver, that are known to be unfriendly to natives, that get numerous complaints, and no one lifts a finger.
@@johnmalloway8330 I work for a local council in NZ. Complaints like this do get followed up here. I've seen the hearings.
Business* in front, party** in the back.
*Arthur
**Merlin
Imagine "viking" cosplayers meeting actual norsemen. "wtf are you supposed to be?"
I gave a lecture recently on my research of the history of body art. Its incredible the amount of not only culture, but actual spirituality that is involved in the act of covering the body in the art of your people. Great video.
6:12 - "The idea that people would just doing this without thinking on TikTok is kinda embarrasing" - well, yoy've just described TikTok as a platform, mate.
Awesome video btw! We need more voices like yours in this world.
TikTok was devised as an educational platform and originally used to share science based videos or maths videos or similar EDUCATIONAL videos among kids to help with learning. Then it moved to the US and .........................
There are actually a few videos on CZcams showing what was on the original TikTok - still is to a degree, it was widely used during the COVID lockdowns for example and Chinese teachers still use videos you can find on it for their original educational purposes - and then what it is like in the west. Absolutely no comparison, embarrassing actually.
Looks like they owe more to Mad Max than actual Vikings.
As a (actual) Native American I really appreciate this video. My female ancestors from what’s now California had the 111 chin tats. Tribal people all along that coast had variations on that and you could identify what tribe someone was from because of chin tats. They were a rite of passage for many.
Those tats MEAN SOMETHING. Revitalizing them in our own communities MEANS SOMETHING.
Those Nisenan ancestors had bounties put on their heads and survivors were banned from even speaking our languages or practicing our spirituality.
So when Colonizers steal those things, especially when they’re occupying land stolen from Indigenous people, it can be very problematic.
And for some reason wyt Australians are getting tattoos of Native Americans on themselves!!!! People who probably never met an actual Native are stealing our ancestors’ images, tattooing them permanently (many tribes have strict protocols around making permanent marks on the body as well) while they’re occupying stolen Aboriginal lands!!!!
And when we try to explain things to them they dig their heels in instead of making an appointment to get lasered.
If anyone truly wants to “honor” Natives then please educate yourselves instead of being a modern day Colonizer. We have our own artists and aspects of our culture that are ok to share and even sell.
Plenty of Maori and pacific islanders with chin tattoos over here in Australia. Also Plenty of the people you refer to as colonisers ended up in Australia thru no fault of the own Scottish land clearances, Irish political prisoners, convicts etc.
I’m really glad the video is ok, thank you very much for saying all of this and passing on some very important info and points of view.
@@matthewcharles5867 "thru no fault of the own Scottish land clearances, Irish political prisoners, convicts" But they were still colonisers, even if going to Australia wasn't their idea. Yes, they were persecuted and oppressed by the English/British Empire, but they were also supported by the Empire to take land from Aboriginal people. They supported each other in devaluing Aboriginal people and their culture, and eventually even massacring Aboriginal people, forcing them into smaller and smaller areas, and imposing a "whites are best" (otherwise known as a white-supremacist) society.
@@nmelodic6391 they were not all that different from the aboriginals in many respects. They were just people trying to make the best of their circumstances. Including fullas like Richard Craig who ran away from the Morton bay penal settlement and lived with the aboriginals in the Dorrigo area for over 6 years.
Not every white fulla went around stealing land and killing aboriginals just like not every aboriginal went spearing white fullas and stealing their food.
The first fleet was so badly prepared I'm surprised that they survived one of the provisions that they picked up in Rio on the way over was musket ammunition because they didn't put it on the list of stuff to take when they left England. It was a lot more complicated a situation than people bother to look into. I'm pretty sure the colony survived due to help from the aboriginals in the beginning because from a logistics point of view it was organised and run horribly.
@@matthewcharles5867 It being complicated, and the people being oppressed in one way doesn't stop them, en masse, from being oppressors of other people, which they and their descendents became.
Stop trying to whitewash what happened.
Aside from tattoos being taken away, many of my ancestors were forced to cut their hair and speak English. This happened at Carlisle School. That makes me terribly sad when I think about what they went through. Tattooing in the old ways has become a way for us to take it back and reconnect with the ancestors when getting the tattoo.
People doing things on Tik Tok without thinking is basically what the entire platform is.
Many Native American tribes including mine, “Tlingit” have chin tattoos. Typically they’re worn by women. Unfortunately do to cultural loss we have no information of what their meaning was but many think it may have to do with marital status or social status. It more than likely varied among the various clans within the tribe as well as with other tribes clans.
May i ask whether your tribe still uses them even though you're not shure what they ment?
Like do you embed them whith new meaning or invemt new ones to keep them alive or do you leave them to history in hopes of someday figuring out their exact use?
@@elrikstronginthearm9267 some do and it’s growing in popularity among Tlingit and other Pacific Northwest tribes. As for the meaning, that probably depends on the individual, overall it’s become a symbol of cultural pride and traditions.
@@elrikstronginthearm9267 besides the chin tattoos of women we also have tattoos that were worn on the chests and hands. Those we do remember the meanings of. Typically a man who had achieved some great deed would earn the honor of wearing the head of their moiety across one side of the chest (either Raven or Eagle depending on the moiety.) Traditionally high status women would have their clan emblem (in my case it would be a dog salmon L’eeneidi if I choose to) tattooed to the back of one hand with a raven’s tail tattooed to the other. I’m not sure if Eagle moiety swapped the ravens tail for an eagle’s but it’s possible they may have done either.
The meaning of the women’s hand tattoos is pretty straightforward, it’s to demonstrate which tribe and moiety they belong to which most of Tlingit society revolved around considering it was traditionally matrilineal, with people tracing their lineage and identity through the female line, land and property were also traditionally either directly owned by women or passed along the female line also.
Status was also passed along the female line, for example if the chief has a son and his sister has a son the sister’s son will be the next chief, not the chief’s son. The chief’s son would technically belong to a different tribe/moiety also because traditionally it was extremely taboo to marry within your moiety, like marrying a relative.
In the same vein of making sure people know where things are from. I know that My Mother's Savage Daughter gets performed by a lot of people without properly crediting the women who wrote it. So for anyone who doesn't know already it was written by Karen L U Kahan/Wyndreth Berginsdottir!
Thank you! Wyndreth deserves all the credit for her intellectual property.
Thankyou for addressing this. I had to delete TikTok as the bad "history" takes got me too stressed out lol.
The association with Scandinavia is probably a Black Metal thing as much as anything else. And they were really just doing a spookier version of Glam Rock facepaint. So I blame David Bowie.
Amazigh/Berber women also had and have various face tattoos. They often tell their life story (coming of age, marriage, kids, etc). Ink and henna have/are used. Its been well over a decade since I've research it so some details are fuzzy.
If I ever have a tattoo it will be a Discworld Lifetimer, Tempus Fuggit as Nanny would say.
I turned up the volume and had no trouble hearing Jimmy when he was outside. You looked pretty spiffy in your suit with actual cuff links, Jimmy. I think there's a real wish that we had some kind of connection to a strong culture especially in the USA where so many of our grandparents, etc. tried so hard to fit in. My Croatian grandfather didn't include anything from there that we could point to and say that's Croatian. It's sad.
Thank you for addressing these issues. Happy Holidays everyone! Whatever you celebrate at this time of year i hope it finds you healthy and safe. 😀🖖💕
I would highly recommend visiting Croatia if you can It's a beautiful country.
I'm like "YES THANK YOU!" at just the point of making a distinction between the Rus and the Norse. It'd be like saying anything of Minnesota culture is Scandinavian culture simply because of the heavy Scandinavian migration to Minnesota during the 19th century. But people really think that because of Ibn Fadlan's observations we can uncritically think shit like "the Norse had dreadlocks and poor hygiene", ignoring not just that the Rus are their own culture but also possible miscommunications that may have led Ibn Fadlan to think that they didn't change their washing water etc.
This is such a great video, and I can't wait to get into the reading you provided. As a tattooer I want to be as aware as I can of these topics, so that I remain respectful and responsible in the projects I take on. It's also so heartwarming to see the native communities around me start to reclaim these traditions of tattooing that were ripped away from them.
I dispute your claim about the lack of body modification in ancient Welsh culture, there is a wealth of evidence proving the ancient Welsh would paint their faces to appear as daffodils, this dates back millions of years when the ancient Welsh first evolved from sentient daffodils to primitive humans into modern humans, and it is a way in which the Welsh honour their daffodil ancestors.
Jokes aside, this is the definition of appropriation, taking something from one culture and then claiming it always belonged to another, though I doubt anyone is doing it maliciously, or intentionally it's just a culmination of hollywoodification of history, nonetheless it does need to be called out/acknowledged.
It is fine to enjoy fantasy shows, I loved the Britannia TV show, but I also know that the Britons couldn't do magic, turn into fish or turn the whites of their eyes black by saying some Welsh words in a Danish accent (no matter how cool Welsh sounds when spoken by Nikolaj Lie Kaas).
I wish I was a daffodil,
Oh daffy me down dilly,
Id turn my face towards the sun,
And folk would call me "Willy"
Yes if I was a daffodil,
oh daffy me down dilly
I'd wear a pair of purple socks,
Now, wouldn't that be silly😊
🤣😂🤣😂🤣
It's weird how historically, anyone with tattoos or cultural body modifications would have been shunned by Western society because those were seen as barbaric (they weren't), but nowadays, we borrow Things That Look Cool To Us. Worst of all, people are doing this based on TV SHOWS, which are at best somewhat historically accurate but more often are completely made up by people who don't know jack about the things they're putting together as "a look".
I appreciate this video very much as an Inuit person! Seeing non-Inuit people taking my culture for an aesthetic upsets me very much
I’m glad it was ok! Thank you very much for letting me know :)
Wow that comment shows a real lack of understanding of colonialism. @@EXCIDIVMFERO
Are face painted Vikings the modern era version of horns on Viking helmets but now the ignorance is less excusable because of the availability of information.
now you tell me?? duuude, it took me allmost an hour to glue thoose damned horns on
@@fanert1 that period authentic Hide glue has such a long cure time but instead of looking up the sources for the glue maybe some sources for the horns first next time 🤓😉
It’s not only the apropriation of other cultures that bothers me. It’s also the distortion of the old norse culture.
It’s one thing to use it in a fantasy setting or to get inspired for future development of present cultures (that is afterall how all cultures develop through contact with other cultures). But claiming it is a true history fact is just nasty.
Just as nasty as the people trying to spread the rumor about viking men givning their bride a cat on their weddingday. Twisting and making up fake history to make it seem ’cooler’ or ’cuter’ is truly worriesome on many levels! And I am sure this happens through out many cultures. It’s just wrong!
how much damage did the vikings tv show do....
None its a TV show. I rather like it. Do I think it is historically accurate? Absolutely not. Still like it. Got boring in S5 IMHO though. First 4 seasons were great. Most people know nothing about history real or false and care little in either case. For people that know some will get annoyed at inaccuracies. I mean I've seen my couch leather used as armor in the show :D. I still like the show. I can still enjoy movies that deal with IT issues even though it is apparent nobody involved ever worked in an IT department IRL.
@@OdinsFerrari2178 oh, it's a fun tv show, i watched 3 seasons i think, it just seams that a lot of people think it's somewhat accurate because it was on history channel (or at least that's my impression, i could be wrong)
Luckily, this isn't a thing on Swedish viking age events. I've only seen it once, and they were (of course) German. They were rather harshly told off that they were making fools out of themselves that their costumes weren't a thing in the viking age and that people disapproved.
Hey, to be fair, Germany has a very lively reenactment scene where people also care a lot about historical accuracy. Like there are even big LARP events where people actually care about proper clothing and armor and behavior. Maybe those people thought it would be more of a pop-culture event like with many medieval festivals and such where it's more about some fantasy version of medievalism.
@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei Oh, definitely there's a very big and good proper reenactment scene in Germany. In no way do I want it to look like everyone from there is a LARPer. But fact remains: a great deal of viking LARPers are German.
You'd expect with the rich archeological finds, if tattooing was a thing with old Norse culture, we'd have found ash-mixing bowls and needles. If they're not there in any of the myriad documented finds, it is very much likely there wasn't any.
How functionally distinct would tattooing equipment have been, relative to leather/fiber craft needles or other mixing bowls? Any chance of identifiable pigment residues?
Yes, ink residue is distinct from food residue. Also, the needle styles are completely different. Tattoo needles look more like a nib and don't have an eye and also come in a clustered variety for filling in large areas of skin. Finds include lots and lots of sewing needles but nothing like tattoo needles. Cultures that practiced tattooing did leave their gear behind.
@weerwolfproductions & @@MichaelRainey
Excellent points.
👍
@@MichaelRainey A (small) possibility though is finder's bias. Most archeological research into Old Norse culture was done by straight-laced Christians who would have frowned on their direct ancestors being tattooed, as tattoos through most of the 20th century were frowned upon as the excess of lower class lay-abouts.
The precedent is there: skeletons wrongfully identified as male because of the gravegoods present, when the person buried turned out to be female after more recent research. And the other way around. male weavers and female warriors were so not an acceptable thing for many archeologists and archeological institutes in Europe.
Sowing needles are used for tattooing in some Arctic First Nation cultures, in a process called 'skin stitching' where a sowing needle trailing an ink-drenched piece of thread is pulled underneath the skin. We know this not through archeology, but because colonizers witnessed this happening and encountered First Nation people with (facial) tattoos that were created by stitching.
@@weerwolfproductions that's a very good point about European Christians' attitudes towards their pagan neighbors. There is that letter from the monk (addressed to "Brother" so presumably a monk but maybe a sibling) deriding the hairstyle and frequency of bathing of the Scandinavians but not tattoos or face paint. They got ragged on for taking too many baths, you'd think someone would've mentioned tattoos.
I had forgotten about stitching as a means of tattooing. I was thinking strictly of tapping with inked needles in the Polynesian style. There was also scarring and rubbing ink into small cuts which would have been performed by any of the millions of small sharp stone flakes they had access to.
What's Welsh for "be excellent to each other"? That'd be fun to get tattood :P
Byddwch yn ardderchog i’ch gilydd!
And thats why i like how in Skyrim (a game heavily based on viking culture) have Warpaint you can wear but not tattoos.
There are a set of people that very badly want to make Viking Era Scandinavians into an indigenous group, and to attach everything that means to it.
I dare say that the vast majority doesn't do it because of malicious reasons.
I dare say that the vast majority dies it out of the lack of knowledge and education.
They saw it in vikings or some other early medieval period fiction and thought that it looked cool.
Even the people in the movie industry didn't do it out of maliciousness. They did it, because they thought it looked cool and that it would capture the audience.
The few people who make up crap on the internet though are something we need to look at.
Some of them might really know they are writing crap and those are the dangerous one.
Albeit, they are imho, a minority within the minority.
It is an indigenous group, albeit mostly fragmented today. I think what you mean to say is that they take features from other indigenous groups and wrongly attribute it to Norse culture (mostly due to poor media representation).
@@I_Willenbrock_I There's a significant portion of 'white power' people that claim 'viking culture' as theirs and actively use it to belittle and even demonise 'non-european' cultures and religions. They end up with this weird mix of viking imagery and christianity. They still claim people should 'burn in hell' but claim that as warriors of Odin fighting 'islamification' they'll end up in Valhalla. 🤨
@@Crynok wtf do you mean fragmented there are full four independent scandi-speaking nordic nation states in the world today + the faroes and the åland isles as semi-autonomous regions
Interesting video, I wonder how many folk would been as keen if we found evidence of scarification or branding being use in the early medieval period?
Thank you for this.
- Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
I think this video pairs well with Snappy Dragon's video on Vikings not wearing their hair in locs. I've never watched Vikings but just seeing what the hair and makeup department was up to, I think I'm good.
I would add the influence of black metal corpse paint to this discussion. Corpse paint by default is not fancy enough, so they made it fancy. Black metal became something very Scandinavian, so...
Mmm good point!
@@TheWelshViking and all who came before them, from Screamin' Jay Hawkins (who was adopted by Native Americans, and is credited to be a "Goth icon") to Alice Cooper, the Misfits to King Diamond, etc.
Vikings and generally the "scruffier" (as in non-Greco-Roman) pagan ancestry of Europe have been a major interest in rock/metal/alternative circles for a long time, it was only a matter of time for all these to converge and combine and evolve and be done in a professional way thanks to the rise of MUA influencers.
So, I think it is absolutely correct to ask questions about cultural appropriation, it's also possible that we see a post-modern "convergent evolution".
I wish that it were required everywhere in the USA (and Americas) that children be taught the genuine history of the people who lived there first. The amount of people who live in our homelands and don't even know we existed is appalling
Im only 32 but i definitly remember learning about the the the different native tribes prior to and after european contact as early back as like 3rd or 4th grade
I don't mean learning a generalized overview of the most named tribes and figures in history. I mean that if you grow up in X tribe's homeland, you should know the real history of that place. Who was there, how they lived, how it was *really* taken from them, where they are now.
That is a really good idea! Start a group to prepare materials for teachers to share with students. It would have to be a ready-to-use 'package', and you would probably have to teach the teachers first too (offer workshops for teachers and education groups). Not everyone will be receptive, but if it's already prepared, and ready to use, it would seem likely that many teachers would be happy to teach the local history to students : )
Huh, I had no idea the tick tock people were getting into Savage Daughter. It's not a song I've sought out (just heard it sometimes at SCA events), but it reminds me of when I suddenly wasn't the only person listening to sea shanties a few years ago. I appreciate this subject getting brought up in the reenactor space; it was bugging me that the appropriation looked so obvious and nobody seemed to be bringing it up other than mentioning it's not how vikings actually looked. I think it's far more important to highlight how it tramples all over living, powerful tattooing traditions today (not to mention the broad "barbarianising," ick). Editing Jimmy is right, be excellent to each other. You wouldn't think it'd be so hard! Hopefully we can get the appropriative makeup to go away soon.
Bjorn Ironsides ' s tattoo in his face from the tv show is the same than my grandmother had. She is amazigh from Algeria.
It is supposed to be a very feminine tattoo.
My own tattoos are knotted dragons patterned after the style of The Book of Kells. I feel like the medieval manuscript art style is highly adaptable to tattooing and under utilized as such. I chose the style partially because I was concerned that Asian style tattoos would be cultural appropriation despite my appreciation for the culture. But also, because I feel like "white guy with Japanese style tattoos" is a bit of a cliche, and I'm nothing if not contrarian. 😜
I'm so tired I was convinced for several minutes that Filming Jimmy was wearing a sword on his back even though he very clearly moves independently of it the whole time.
really appreciate this one. idea for my next tattoo; get arthur's sword poking out of my butcheeks
"Whosoever pulleth this Sword from Dat Ass, He Shall be the True King of England."
Wouldn't it be wonderful if people who are interested in this cultural art would take the time to learn about the meanings behind it so they can truly honor it. It is beautiful and I wish I knew more about it.
It all comes down to respect, doesn't it? Which is a part of being excellent to each other! Great video as always, good sir.
I follow a Maori musician on Insta and he has a bit of an unofficial slogan for learning about Maori culture: "effort is respect."
Presenting Jimmy, and Editing Jimmy, for all our Jimmy options.
i mean, a good indicator that vikings did not have face tattoos are the descriptions that survived of them. They traded, they had extensve contact with other civilisations and one would think that if an observer took the time to write about the vikings hygenic habits that person would also write about the obvious tattoo in the face. Even more so since tattoos where uncommon to non existent in most western europe cultures by the time those testimonials got somewhat reliable.
Everyone knows vikings wore face paint (the whole face had to be covered of course) with stripes and runic-looking inscriptions with a dash of random chinese characters thrown in, also sitting in a dark place, reading out letters to each other in a deep scary voice. Throat singing is also a must because one arab described some singing of some people to sound like dogs, whatever that means. And yes, of course we get all our trustworthy sources from the new fantastic always 100% fact checked and correct short-form-formats of tiktok, youtube shorts etc. where quantity, and braindead fast consumable content, definately is not the most important thing. man i am tired of internet sometimes. its like for every factual video about this age, theres 10 new goofy ass videos like; ''your step-by-step guide to become ''odin-asatru-believer'', ''do you know what othala, the symbol of, who the fuck know, means???'', ''how your little toe tells if you were a VIKING WARRIOR'', ''If your stomach growls sounds like this, that means you have VIKING ANCESTORY'' So much weird things and misinformation and made up stuff.
We call that kind of people "those who have problems with maintaining a healthy distance to the show vikings".
I do think that a lot of the appropriated, cringy stuff is done more in ignorance rather than malice, the problem I think comes when people prefer to stay ignorant. (Besides the egregiousness of the facepaint, my own personal peeve is how Early Medieval people would never paint/tattoo runes on themselves.) In short the best advice I myself can give is if you want to do barbarian role play, stick to Conan the Barbarian, I'm pretty sure the Hyborian Age is more researched than the History Channel's Vikings.
These people, nd many more were given ample education and doubled down and decided to not listen. Its completely with malice unfortunately, its been called out on tiktok for like three years now, mini banks is an Australian content creator known for it who uses unuit culture for likes
Multiple south American white people and native people dress up as Matoaka too, you'd be surprised what white people will do to feel sexy and liked on tiktok, but a few native models in South America have dressed up as her, you might known her as pocahontas. A mmiw victim.
@@celticrealms7413 *sigh* I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but the internet strikes again with doubling down. Seriously it's not hard to disprove face paint and tattoos, what argument could they possibly have?
@@jodieg6318 the only one that counts. they want to. cultural appropriation is a dumb argument at best
Excellent video, a lot “Viking enthusiasts” in my near vicinity have a hard time appreciating this- I think this presentation could do them a world of good.
Very interesting video and I agree with everything you said. Many of the vikingboos probably have no idea that the person who did it the first time stole it from someone else, they're just copying whatever their mates are doing. But honestly, if they love vikings as much as they claim to do they do they should know better... Hopefully educating people will make them rethink their fantasy costumes and start making something original, or even better, start researching actual Norse practices and realise they're not vikings.
I attended the U of Hawaii in the early 1980s. (I am older than that being in my 30s at the time.) There were many people from all over the Pacific Islands as well as Eastern Asia and the mainland US. One of these people had a write up in the local papers. He was the next Tongan king and was starting his traditional tattoos. From the article, they start with the wrists and ankles and eventually cover his entire body. Fascinating.
Thanks for this, Sir. Just to add that little bit more salt into the Tickiety-Tock wound... the song that these people are playacting to is "Savage Daughter" sung by Buffy Saint Marie (Beverly Santamaria). In the past few years it's been taken up by Native kids to show their pride in being from their Nation. Unfortunately it turns out that Buffy/Beverly was actually a white American who made the whole thing up for the past 60 years of her career.
- Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
The song itself is originally written by a nice lady (Wyndreth Berginsdóttir) in the SCA who lives in the upper Midwest of the United States. It's copyrighted and registered with the music licensing services and everything. The original has a much less polished air, and, is better.
Along with viking-related tv and film media, I think there's much to be said about the metal community's viking enthusiasts' use of make-up in these same erroneous ways as well.
I see so much of this assumption that viking age Scandinavians tattooed or painted themselves. It's always funny the think the only real defendable historical references are basically eye-liner. In amongst the shock horror of men combing their hair and bathing often. How dare those "barbarians" do that?
I do appreciate the video existing very much. I'm no viking scholar, and having someone who would know back up my uneducated impressions is incredibly valuable.
Other than facial, is there no information at all on whether viking tattoos ever existed?
I only ask because there is an event scheduled at Birka, that strongly suggests that there is historical legitimacy to "Viking tattoos". This makes me question the integrity of the Birka museum, and that really messes with my head, as I'm looking to learn more about these things...