The Church and The Jews - The Hellenistic Period l Lessons of Dr. David Neiman
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- In this sixth excerpt from Dr. David Neiman's lecture series, The Church and The Jews, Dr. follows the conquests of Alexander the great and the subsequent spread of the Jewish diaspora through the Ptolmeic and Seleucid empires.
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▶︎ • The Church and The Jew...
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Dr. David Neiman (1921-2004) was an internationally renowned scholar, speaker, and writer who inspired many people. His life's work concerned the intricate relations between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism throughout history and in modern times. Dr. Neiman made history come alive through his dramatic presentations and unique interpretations. In light of our current world situation, Dr. Neiman's work is not only extremely relevant but also remarkably prescient. More than anything, Dr. Neiman was a keen observer of the human condition. His words convey our shared history with clarity, humor, and humanity.
Dr. Neiman was the first Jewish scholar appointed to teach Religion at Boston College, one of America's leading Catholic Universities. He served as Professor in the Department of Theology for a quarter of a century. While there he was also invited to teach at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. After retiring from Boston College, Dr.Neiman moved to Los Angeles, where he taught at Loyola Marymount University, St. John' s Seminary in Camarillo and the University of Judaism in Bel Air.
Highly interesting teachings about the Hellenistic period and the making of the first translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, Dr. Neiman! I only must add the deep influence of the Hellenistic culture over the Jew residents in Egypt that made very necessary the translation of the Hebrew Holy Scriptures to the Greek language. My respects!
Fantastic lecture. More please : )
@GREEKFONTS As you point there is some scholarly debate over the stele. I wouldn't expect they meant Jezreel, even though it is mentioned in Joshua, at that time I can't imagine it was an important enough city for the Egyptians to bother mentioning. It would become a fortified Israelite city a few centuries later. Around the time of the Moabite stone which talks not only of the nation of Israel but also it's king, Omri.
Awesome. This is what I am looking for.
the real reason of the translation is God wanted it, it was time for the rest of the world to know
@baqashchokmahelel
Alternative Translations
The translation as "Israel" remains the view of the majority of historians, however a number of alternative readings for the text "I.si.ri.ar" have been suggested and debated. The most common alternative suggested is that of Jezreel (city) or the Jezreel Valley,which remains an area of academic debate despite having been considered as an alternative ever since the stele was discovered in 1896.
Phoenician is simply what the Greeks called the Canaanites. It's the same written language whichever you choose to call those who wrote it, living in the land of Canaan. The Hebrew language is practically identical to Phoenician. Every alphabetic languages borrow from those in Canaan & ancient Israel, including the English we're communicating with.
Course they're both termed "semitic" languages which goes back to the Sumerians. Perhaps that's an underlying significance to the Abraham account?
@baqashchokmahelel
Other scholars believe the reference is to not a place but a reference to the Libyans within Egypt with the symbols translating directly to 'the wearers of a sidelock'.
@baqashchokmahelel
As others have pointed out elsewhere, Margalith’s attempts to identify the entity ysry·r/l with Isarel or Jezreel through Ugaritic vocalizations and a Sumerian title of a king are not convincing for an Egyptian inscription with a clear context for this entity in Canaan," and "The suggestion of equating the ysry·r/l of the stela with Jezreel has now been taken up anew without any reference to earlier discussions. The identification is rife with difficulties.
@GREEKFONTS I merely mention the current situation.
As far as history & ancient history I find it all fascinating. Greeks, Israel, Egypt, Babylon, Sumer ect. Unlike you I don't pick one & deny their existence because it suits me/you.
@baqashchokmahelel
"The view that the term ysry·r/l is a possible territory within Canaan but not associated with biblical Israel was proposed by Othniel Margalith (1990). His conclusions are based on the suggestion by G. R. Driver (1948: 135) that the Egyptians could also represent Hebrew zayin. Accordingly, the name ysry·r/l could be translated as Iezreel “which might be an inexperienced way of rendering Yezreel, the valley to the north of the country” (Margalith 1990: 229)
@GREEKFONTS I'll sit back and watch the discoveries come and we can both witness the final death of (the short lived anyway) biblical minimalism.
Anyone can look up the discoveries to date. One of the great things about the internet.
Khirbet Qeiyafa is one of the fascinating current excavations. Go Garfinkel!
@GREEKFONTS I don't just lump the Hebrew's. The Israelites were part of land of Caanan which included far more peoples than just the Canaanites. Archaeological evidence is still being produced so the historical isn't closed as you might wish it was.
But how ironic with no evidence of atlanteans conquering europe that you would cling to the hope. Greeks don't go back 12,000 years.
@highlands555 Yes. we can find examples of this difference in todays world as well. The way immigrants and new comers are treated in America and Canada are vastly different from the way they are treated in Europe. In the US, culture isn't imposed it is merely presented as desirable. In Europe, culture and European values are the law of the land, and this creates a serious acculturation problem. It is simply harder to assimilate newcomers to Europe because of this alienation problem
@baqashchokmahelel
I'm Just the messenger as Solon was and Plato was.The Egyptian priests were simply telling the Greeks, that in their hall of records they had recorded the great history of the Greeks and their defeat of Atlanteans 9000 yrs prior to app. 900BC.The Greeks had undergone war and the decline of the Myceaneans caused the Greek dark ages. Much of their history was lost. But the Egyptians had recorded it.So again.It is written.And its not religious text or dogma
The first historical mention of 'The Letter of Aristeas' is from Flavius Josephus and its an interpolation, the Septuagint is a hoax and was created in Rome using the Scriptures that where removed from the Temple of Jerusalem prior to its fall.
@baqashchokmahelel
Well, from my point of view the Abrahamic man in the sky and his "word" is pretty good fiction.
Howeve, an ancient account by a third party(Egyptians), of a war in the Mediterranean between the Greeks and Atlanteans is not.
what a difference between Greek's idea of rule, and Cyrus'
The impulse to impose or export one's own culture and values, as demonstrated by Greeks, is in sharp contrast to Cyrus' notion of letting every people keep their religion and language.
Not to hard to look back and see which one makes more sense- and causes less conflict
highlands555 under Cirus there was no need to translate the Bible simply because Aramaic was already one of the languge of Persian Empire. No Greek ruler in Egypt forced Hebrews, they simply had a different langage. The problem was white Seleucidi and Antiocos IV
@GREEKFONTS Well I suppose we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
@GREEKFONTS I'd say the archaeologist you mention but don't name is jumping the gun. But there are biblical minimalists who make conclusions like Finkelstein..
It's definately more of a challenge to find the remains of the kingdom of Israel. They were forbidden to make graven images of multiple deities as their neighbors did, which makes up much of their mountains of evidence as you put it. Israel was an ancient nation set apart.
@GREEKFONTS Around 500 BC the Hebrew alphabet became influenced by Aramaic (another semitic script) because of the Babylonian captivity. Paleo-hebrew & caananite/phoenician are practically identical & are far earlier than greek. Especially if you go back to the proto-sinatic script a 1000 years or more before the greeks adopted writing from the levant. Which came first, aleph or alpha?
I think you need to work on your alphabet..........coanments?
@baqashchokmahelel
Thats why its impossible to find ANY trace of an Israeli kingdom and that is why the myth will collapse, and its unsustainable.
Not sure what your point is, you worship snake gods?
@baqashchokmahelel
You Cannot just lump in Hebrew with any Eastern culture and then just clai that cultures language and accomplishments as Hebrew. The Canaanites were Canaanites, the Hittites were Hittites, the Phoenicians were Phoenicians, and the Hyksos were Hyksos. ALL of those have left mountains of archaeological evidence compared to Hebrew. If the story of Atlantis is correct. The Greeks have been a major force for 12000 yrs. Since they destroyed the Atlanteans
@baqashchokmahelel
Really? And where exactly did you find that written that the Hebrews had that particular Alhabet before the Cananites Phoenicians and the Greeks. Did Moses leave you the coandments? The Earliest substantiated Hebrew is about 500 BC. But todays Ashkenazis are trying to claim everyones Alphabet. Greeks were using that script far longer than the Hebrews. Theyre even trying to claim that Minoans were Hebrews. The whole academic world is laughing at them.
the bible -the orthodox bible not the jew was translated by 70 writers from aramaic to a greek symbolic laqnguage not spoken but only read
@baqashchokmahelel
Heres the point that archaeologists linguists and historians have serious problems with the idea of Israelite kingdoms.Kingdoms leave mountains of evidence. In this period ALL other kingdoms left mountains of evidence of their existence.Its the nature of a "kingdom" it leaves much evidence.This stele is not Hebrew.Its Egyptian. Several months ago the Head Israeli archaeologist flatly stated that there is NO EVIDENCE of Ancient Israeli Kingdoms in Palestine
What!?!?!?!? The Greek alphabet originated from the Phoenician alphabet, not the Hebrew/Canaanite. The language on the other hand is an Indo-European language.
When the State of Israel came into existence, it included a mainly Arab minority, now about one million people. Historically Zionism has never recognised any 'national minority' within the nation, the status of (for instance) the Frisians w...ithin the modern Dutch nation. For Zionists, the Jewish people is the Jewish nation: Zionism is a mono-ethnic nationalism comparable to Irish nationalism. The present State of Israel generally has the constitutional structure of a secular nation state.
@GREEKFONTS Oh brother, please don't bother to compare yourself to Plato.
While in the merneptah stele from the 13th century BC confirms Israel in Canaan the Mycenaean's written language was borrowed from Egypt. And as I've said, later their alphabet was borrow from Canaan. Aleph before Alpha.
A Roman saying "who do the Hebrews think they are" just acknowledges the Hebrews & that the Romans thought they were all that, lol.
You just ignore history you don't like.
@baqashchokmahelel
Greece wasnt always in some state of glory. Since its mention by the Egyptian priests 12000 yrs ago they have been ebroiled in war to save their little piece of land. the earliest mention was their defeat of the Atlanteans 12000yrs ago. they glory days only lasted app 1000 yrs out of that history. The rest of the time has been filled with war and bloodshed. so for you to say that means that you know nothing of Greek history
@GREEKFONTS The ancient greeks developed their written language from the hebrew/caananite alphabet The greeks didn't invent the alphabet.
imagine how boring the world would be if it was all just one culture..
@GREEKFONTS Egypt doesn't go back 12,000 years, sorry.
There was no bible prior to septuagint
Can you make it clearer??
What is the Septuagint a translation of?
@GREEKFONTS You can imply all you want that the discussion is over or that Israel is a fraud, but as the search and digging continues you'll eventually have to concede. Plenty more to find and find it very exciting.
I could list off discoveries up to now, but there's no good reason to waste comment space here, as you would just try to refute them.
If the treasure written about on the copper scroll is ever found, man that one would be huge!
@baqashchokmahelel
You're being disingenuous about finding history fascinating when you don t even know or hav e read the story of Atlantis which was told to Solon at about 900BC by the Egyptian priests and then retold by Plato. Yes according to the Egyptian priests, the Greeks defeated the Atlanteans at the greatest battle that the Egyptian hall of records mentioned at that time.They defeated them 9000 yrs prior to Solons visit. Which would make it about 12000 yrs ago.
you found prejudism in 70 scholars.... where is jew translation ,,, you have problem with hellenism professor
@baqashchokmahelel
No you cannot list discoveries that point to Israeli kingdoms. Because they simply dont exist. What you have is proof of the existence of the Hebrew faith and the Rabbinical hierarchy in that faith which always lived under another empire. You have proof of Hebrew existence like someone from the future would find proof of Jehovas witnesses. But not a Jehova witness kingdom.Or a Mormon kingdom or a Jewish kingdom or a Jesus Kingdom. Dig to Australia.
@baqashchokmahelel
So if you mention this "credit' crisis like its some sort of real crisis for the Greeks compared to what they've been through.Its a joke. in 5000 Yrs Greece will still be there and Greeks will be defending it till the end.Your lack of knowledge of Greek history shows.But then again it seems like Abrahamic religion is the only thing that matters to you.Not reality.Dont worry about the Greeks. Goldman Sachs will be long forgotten in terms Greek historys scale
@GREEKFONTS says blah blah blah
Correct.
Atlantis is fun...........fiction.
GREEKFONTS Poor little guy. Your inferiority complex is a carefully hidden, neon flashing siren blaring 800 lb gorilla. Do you feel sad that your identity is attached to a has-been, once-was from 2500 years ago? How many have won Nobel prizes lately? Not so many. Socrates and many of his contemporaries were educated in Egypt. They certainly deserve our respect, but they were not the originators of the ideas they espoused. Greeks just took credit for it when they wrote their self-flattering history. If they were really such a great culture and people, they would have shone for more than just a few generations.The fact they didn't means they were borrowers not creators. -- The Jews, meanwhile, ... well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, yes? 5 billion people practice a religion that imitates but never compares to Judaism. The brilliance that has steadily emanated from the Jewish people over the millennia could fill the Library of Alexandria 10 times over. -- Hey, don't feel jealous, kid. You can convert to Judaism, too! Join the winning team!
@GREEKFONTS Well while I wouldn't go so far as to label you anti-semitic, your last statement could appear to lean that way.
As far as you opinion on hebrew history, you're entitled to your opinion. I however, don't buy into it.
Israel is a great nation today. Greece isn't doing so well at the moment.