I appreciate their story and their honesty and integrity. I would love to hear an update on this couple, where they are at in the faith journey all these years later.
I just listened to all four parts. I have been trying to overcome doubts over these same issues for about a year now. You are so lucky to be able to go through this journey together. My wife and I are on two very different paths. I'm struggling to keep our marriage together. It's very difficult to keep going to church when you don't believe and it's very difficult not to go when your family thinks you're doing something bad by not going. I feel for anyone who has to go through this incredibly difficult challenge in their life. This difficult journey is taken only by those who are the honest seekers of truth that also have the courage to actually open their eyes and see and their ears to hear the truth.
Jeramy Hawkes "My wife and I are on two very different paths." - That is very difficult and it does strain a relationship. As many believing Mormons are pointing out, the couple in this interview did get divorced and it's possible that different paths may have played a role - he seems to have become atheist, she seemed to be leaning toward seeking an approach to being Christian that is focused on agape love (at least at the time the video was made - it's difficult to tell if she'd remain Christian or become agnostic over time). People can remain married despite different religious beliefs or non-beliefs. But a significant change such as this is just difficult. It would take fairly extreme patience and love on both of your parts. "I'm struggling to keep our marriage together." - You left out the "we." One person can't keep a marriage together, it takes two. The reason I comment on LDS related boards with anonymity is to be able to state sensitive things (in relation to the church for instance) while maintaining privacy for members of my extended family who are still members. I wonder if you'd mind a suggestion - if you need to vent about your wife's apparent lack of effort in the marriage (as is hinted at here), perhaps vent with anonymity when on the internet. M.any wives wouldn't appreciate leaving out the "we" if she is trying too. Please don't make mistakes on youtube that could damage your efforts in the marriage. " It's very difficult to keep going to church when you don't believe and it's very difficult not to go when your family thinks you're doing something bad by not going." - Yep. Both of my parents experienced that. They remained members for decades after no longer believing. My mother had very strong family ties to the church on her side. It was beneficial for my father's sense of sanity that my mother had also stopped believing in LDS theology (both are Christian). However, he did attend the church for decades without believing in the theological claims of the church and it was an intensely painful thing for him.
writerteacher1 thanks for taking the time to comment on my comment. The reason why I'm not anonymous is because I hate being the one hiding in the shadows. I'm proud of the fact I'm searching for truth and I'm not ashamed of where it has lead me. I'm not going to hide and let the modern day Pharisees rule the day.
Jeramy Hawkes I understand. It has been two months since your original post so anything that jumped out at me in the comment as private/sensitive given your lack of anonymity is now old news to anyone in your life. I hope that in the two months that have passed things have improved - in your marriage and in the other difficult choices you face. I'm ex-Mormon myself. I know first-hand the pain that can be inflicted from LDS family and so-called friends after leaving the church. I also know from long conversations with my parents (my mom is now deceased) that the choice of staying or leaving when a marriage is impacted is a profoundly painful one. Be well. And be happy.
Actually my marriage is likely going to fail and nobody in my family will talk to me. My oldest son just put his papers in to go on a mission. I was looking for friends. I think now I just need some drugs and alcohol.
Jeramy Hawkes The internet actually is a place where you can make long-distance penpals at least. There are ex-Mormon boards and of course other boards with people who may share common interests with you. I'm sorry to hear about the likely failed marriage and other troubles. It sounds like you have lots of Mormon family and (ex) friends around. If nothing else, you can use their possible nay-saying about you as motivation perhaps to show that they are wrong. Remember, there is a great deal of the prosperity anti-gospel in LDS culture, it's tied into the cultural sense of "worthiness" so the more you prosper it is a good form of revenge for any pain inflicted upon you. Anger is a negative emotion. It is typically highly destructive. However, you can also (with care not to let the anger get out of control, counter-balanced by love and understanding and forgiveness) tap into anger at times in ways that may be very productive in your life. The "I'm going to prove you wrong" or "Watch this" factor can be potent. You and I likely both know the common stereotypes out there that Mormons tend to have about ex-Mormons. My extended family on my mother's side also doesn't talk with me (aside for one distant cousin who is also ex-Mormon and persona non grata in the rest of the family like me). There are lots of false stories told about me. If a child of mine were to try to reconnect with extended family years from now the false impression that people in my family who are Mormon (by belief or just culture in some cases) have of me would starkly conflict with the reality of the person that I am. That's among the saddest things to me - the side of the family that will become "my side" will be almost unrecognizable to the side of the family that at one time in my life used to be very loving toward me. But I'm also doing fine in my life. CZcams is a cathartic outlet and also a way to communicate about LDS topics while taking short breaks.
Deeply, fully grateful to you John and Brooke McLay--your honesty and humility is refreshing. Truth requires action and courage and you both are truly courageous! Leaving our dishonest Church is necessary and a rising tide is building where literally thousands and millions stand wit h you!
Also, thanks to the McLays (and mormonstories) for sharing this story in a positive and uplifting manner. This has helped me in my own recent journey (which hasn't taken me to remove my records from the church, yet) in discovering what I believe to be the truth. It's refreshing that you present yourselves in a way that isn't bitter or antagonistic towards the church, and that gives me hope in maintaining a positive filter through which I can look at the church.
I've been looking for something like this on the internet for off and on for the last few years. This is really what I needed to hear. John and Brooke are an amazing couple that really have helped me out due to this video. Thanks to Mormon Stories and the Mclay's for this great video!
The McLay's are great. I really enjoyed this interview. I'm still in the church, meaning I haven't left. But I'm sort of where John is; my whole world blew up, and it's not only about Mormonism, but about religion in general and God.....I'm on the journey.
John said he was looking for therapy through telling his story and it is definitely a healing and educational journey for so many and hearing stories like this is so fundamental. It is a group therapy process as we all piece together our relationship to our individual and collective experiences inside and outside of the LDS church. Thanks John and Brooke for your courage and sharing your stories and insights with us through this format.
Thank you very much. I remember almost every point that you talked about. I almost went insane before I came out of the dark tunnel. Hang in there. I am now a active Methodist and feel like there is light after Mormonism.
Oh my goodness I just want to Hug you Both so much😢 it takes Courage to speak your Truth!!! You are Beautiful Good Kind Loving People always know that!! Sending you all my Love and Thank you🙏🏽😘😘xxxxxxxx
Its the social club in mormonism she misses. Its not the worship part. Its the friendships she developed. The parties. The support. The womens night for crafts and cooking. Thats what she misses.
I am proud of the McLay's for having the courage to "do what is right, let the consequence follow." Once they discovered that the LDS Church's curriculum and leaders embrace the principle of lying for the Lord to beat the devil at his own game since "not all truth is useful," this wonderful couple graduated from Mormonism after recognizing the Church for what it is: the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
Lie's are deception! Fact LDS have Jesus Christ in there name is biggest deception. More Lucifer than for good. All truth is useful! Any lie's are not! You must work for Liar like Lucifer!
Justin Snyder Wrong again Justin... careful how you use the trial as your evidence James 1:2-4 2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
+Justin Snyder Job faced financial destruction, emotional turmoil, sickness, and the loss of his family -- was this because he apostatized from the One True Church? I ask that question in the serene confidence that it provoke another outburst of illiterate, slogan-spewing vituperation. Cultists are like that.
+Justin Snyder Job faced financial destruction, emotional turmoil, sickness, and the loss of his family -- was this because he apostatized from the One True Church? I ask that question in the serene confidence that it provoke another outburst of illiterate, slogan-spewing vituperation. Cultists are like that.
+Justin Snyder , Another Christlike Mormon. Justin, When people believe that bad things only happen to bad people, it's called the prosperity doctrine. Televangelists love to spout this stuff. When bad things happen to you is it because you're are a bad person? Or do you pretend that bad things never happen to you?
John, John and Brooke, you talk about several points regarding the damage done by CES that I've personally come to believe over the last few years. 1. By not being taught the truth, kids are set up to have crisis of faith 2. By vilifying sex, LDS marriages are set up to have problems 3. Children are set up to feel inferior if they don't have the conversion experience 4. By teaching that emotion = truth we teach kids to avoid critical thinking and many others...amazing podcast, thank you.
"The harm is done in the dishonesty - it harms young people" ... John McLay I like honest ex-believers more than dishonest believers - I think we all identify positively with truth, and when it is not present, we instinctively have to remove ourselves for our spiritual health.
Thank you to John and Brooke for sharing the "reality" of their experience extricating themselves from "illusion." Truth is the core value that needs to be reclaimed. Thoughts...Feelings....Actions. Trivium based analytically, logically, syllogistically determined thoughts must be cultivated prior to the endorsement of the feelings. Openness and honesty and an awareness of the self...the true self outside of the ego identification with any organization is one of the keys to a healthy capacity to move forward motivated by the WILL from a truly CARING heart and mind. These two have built my soul and renewed my hope and faith in the quest for that which is as opposed to that which is not. Lovely...lovely people.
When the church elders say that the CES is failing, it looks to me like the church is set up so that the successes are attributed to the church, but the failures are all people's fault. That's insidious, sinister and delusional. There will be "on the right side" that is nearly impossible to humanly want to violate, and then there's "on the wrong side," which creates oppositionalism, which is just the flip side of that. I've been away for 30 years now, and I'm so glad I found that the Church is not the gatekeeper to God or anything. The church doesn't have to do with a person's truth, forgiveness, giving, honesty or anything like that. It can make someone a liar who doesn't have real love in them, a pharisee. Or not.
That is the exact set up, they get credit for all the good that members do and when bad things happen it is the members's fault, lack of faith, apostasy etc. Good business practice.
29:20 -I went to EFY in Idaho once during the summer when I was a kid. I literally only packed shorts and flip flops (no shoes, and no long pants, except maybe for church). I got pulled aside by a counselor on I think just 2 days before it ended, chastising me for being "immodest" and not living the BYUI dress code, and telling me I needed to change before I participated in any more activities. Apparently shorts and flip flops are like, satanic there. Keep in mind, it was about 85 degrees (29 C) at the time, and when I informed him I had no other pants (just other shorts) he about lost it. It turned into this huge ordeal, with him taking me back to some admin offices to figure out how to handle a Code Red situation, and being a kid with no debit card, venmo, etc. for my parents to send me money to "buy more pants" (which was their proposed solution), they almost had my parents drive up with more clothing for me. I honestly don't even remember the exact details on this part, but I'm pretty sure they got me special permission from a BYUI administrator, and the stake president, for me to wear flip flops and shorts for the last 2 days since I didnt have anything else. I just remember sitting in administration offices for a day, getting multiple scoldings for disrupting the spirit of campus and not honoring my priesthood, and finally being "let go" back to my company. It was really whacky.
I am not a Mormon but live ground zero land of the funny underwear. I really enjoy watching Mormon stories, they do an excellent job. John Dehlin is the best person they could have pick for these stories. He look like he could fit in with the Osmond Family, some where between the 7th and 10th Brother.I have Mormons in my family and Mormons friends, I try and get them to watch the very first Mormon Story. I hope that I can get them hooked on these documentaries as am I. God bless keep up the work
Hi Kimslim, I was actually very nice to CindyBin through a series of her rude comments. I was very active for over 50 years, but facts are facts. For 30 years while the Blacks were still slaves we called them cursed For almost 100 years the Blacks were mistreated we called them cursed For 30 years while they fought for civil rights we called them cursed I have read B.Young, M. E. Peterson & B. R. McConkie - when the lawsuits came and BYU sports were in danger - it was just went away
Yep! Emotional feelings are fully unreliable...also, the mental body must be overcome because it cannot survive death it is only the servant of soul. Rise above the world, become content, become elegant in your freedom. Merge with the inner Lord and receive His grace. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you".
It just amazes me how people find the truth, but let the church still tug at their heart strings. Where is the courage of their convictions? When I first started watching these Mclay videos I had so much respect for what they were doing. It just shows how much of a cult Mormonism is. Evil! Evil! Evil!
When one door closes, other and often a better door opens up. What a great couple and I hope and pray for you and your Family. Brooke, I'll light a candle in my Catholic church for you and John, and your 4 children. Never-Mormon from Midvale/Murray area...I so lucky I never had a reason to check out The Mormon Church. Plus, I hate BYZOOO football, 'Go Irish"...Thank you for sharing your story...
Born members could be taught the true history and probably accept it. People can justify pretty much anything. The actual historical doctrine just isn't very good for the growth model the church wants for missions. Frankly, if you taught all the actual historical doctrine the church wouldn't grow and would have a huge decline. The problem with the milk before meat theory is they never intend get to the meat and when we find out on our own we find out it's is barely recognizable or completely the opposite to what we have been taught before.
I think this is key. When we take into consideration the mystical experience, I think it's important to really understand it. I submitted one of my videos ON the mystical experience as a video response because I think it is so important to understand - to keep from being lead into a false belief and/or system of beliefs.
I really admire your choice to simply and clearly explain your experience. So many times what you've said has mirrored the process that I (and pretty much all of my ex-Mormon friends) went through after coming to the conclusion that the church was not 'true' (not founded on truth, does not have authority to speak or act for God, hides its history, etc).
One of the main questions discussed is if the church leadership would change what's taught to be more in line with what actually happened. I just don't see that ever happening. Like John said, some of the stuff is just so out there, it would be ultimately detrimental to the faith of the core group of active members. It's a risk analysis: Do the Brethren risk losing 5% of the curious "fringe" members, or 75% of the blissfully obedient (and unaware). And THAT is why we feel betrayed and lied to.
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." (John 13:34) "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:20). "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8). Too much talk of "haters." Be a Mormon. Or don't. Love God and love one another. Be loving in words and actions.
Amazing courage by this couple--I have walked much of the same path, and felt every word and feeling. They articulate their experience extremely well, and are very fair to the church and the good people still there. I disagree with John in regards to there likely not being many defectors going forward--here in Zion I am encountering more and more people, including those with greater knowledge and experience, who are leaving. I have spent so much time reflecting on what is discussed here--thanks.
@45:38, this disarmingly appealing and tremendously articulate couple nails one of the most insidious control techniques in the LDS Church: Using irresistible sentiment as a delivery system for indoctrination. That church was hardly the first or only organization or movement to employ it, but the way this is done in Mormonism is uncannily effective. Consider the familiar first Sunday ritual in which children are taught to "bear their testimonies" -- which is to say, recite potted assurances they could not possibly understand, and make assertions of knowledge that they couldn't possibly possess. The standard script runs something like this: "I want to bear my testimony that I know the Church is true, I love my mommy and daddy" -- or perhaps the second statement would be, "I know my mommy and daddy love me." In either case, by publicly testifying in this fashion, the child is stating and endorsing the idea that belief in the "truth" of Mormonism is indissolubly connected to the love that connects the child to his or her parents. Entertaining doubts regarding those claims would be an intimate and shocking betrayal: It would mean either that you don't really love your parents, or that their love for you isn't authentic. This is why adult children of faithful Mormons are accused of scorning and despising their parents when they examine their inevitable doubts honestly, rather than choking them down or putting them on the proverbial shelf. It seems reasonable to suspect that all of this helps explain why Utah is a perennial leader among states in the use of prescription anti-depressants.
+FreedomZealot You nailed it. Here's something I wrote on that. Mind Control On the first Sunday of each month from the time you were a small child your mother would take your hand in hers and lead you up the Church aisle to the podium. She would stand you on a step in front of the podium and the podium and microphone would be lowered within reach. The words she would whisper in your ear for you to repeat were: "I know the Book of Mormon is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God". You would see countless children do this and hear countless adults do so also. How does any child know these things? They don't. Have they read the Book of Mormon? Of course not. Have they read any history on Joseph Smith or the Mormon Church. Of course not. It's called coercive persuasion, mind control or thought control. Theories of mind control and religious conversion. Over the years various theories of conversion and member retention have been proposed that link mind control to some new religious movements (NRMs), particularly those religious movements referred to as "cults" by their critics. Philip Zimbardo discusses mind control as "the process by which individual or collective freedom of choice and action is compromised by agents or agencies that modify or distort perception, motivation, affect, cognition and/or behavioral outcomes",[34] and he suggests that any human being is susceptible to such manipulation. When the truth of this is recognized don't beat yourself up and don't blame your parents. They were victims too. A Cult is an organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact.
You guys speak as though sentiment is bad, that people who express it in public speaking or teaching are being deceitful. Isn't happiness or unhappiness based on feelings?
Ok, here's one example out of countless others I've received over the years.- I was walking to church one day when I suddenly felt very sick. After arriving there, I received a priesthood blessing. Too sick to attend any meeting , I went and sat in a vacant room. After some time in there I started to dose off and that's when I felt a most beautiful and sweet breeze go through my body and the sickness was gone - apart from a mild head ach which was nothing in comparison Hope this helps.
Well this was very interesting. Both John and Brooke seem like terrific people and I enjoyed very much listening to their story. However I fail to see why Mormon Stories expends so much effort to produce a 5 1/2 hr story, and by the looks of it hundreds of other stories?
I admire you two for your integrity. I don't think I believe now either, but I don't have the courage to tell people because it would destroy my life. I have the choice of living a lie or losing my family, friends, and identity. I choose to fake it for now.
I served a mission with McLay. When he had problems and his companion couldn't handle him being self righteous, his companion actually walked out and refused to serve with him. He then lost his testimony and the Mission President had to put him in the office. I assume the same thing happened and he felt like his wife was leaving him or going to leave him.
I don't think you can fake the spirit with emotions, A general authority came to my school, and I had a bunch of negative feelings about the church going into it. as I sat there, he was not talking about anything that related to my problems but his presence brought an overwhelming spirit into the room, that I didnt get anywere else.
i do like that comment its the only non negative one ive seen here. i am mormon and i can say that we are not trying to post negative comments about any church, we are trying to defend ourselves from all the negative comments people are posting about our church, and in the process we may come off a little rude but that doesnt mean that were trying to bag on anyone
The problem with members of the church, the community, and growing up with it, is that everyone wants to help you and give you what you need. But what you need and what they 'think' you need are not the same thing. It's selfish to ask one or try to help some one live the way you do because you just "know" the church is true and that it will help everyone.
@MrMFHORN I saw no intention to "seek out the negative." Yours is a common response to stories such as the McLay's. These people asked questions and sought answers as church members are invited to do and came to an honest conclusion. You are upset because that conclusion is different than what you believe, and so you lash out, as countless others have.
Love one another, in spirit and truth. Seek not disorder but peace. Be giving and self-sacrificing, "for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 16: 25).
The right direction is not returning anger for anger. It is not in and eye for an eye. It is in love. You can find fault with words and actions of others. But you and I both have motes too. I have mine.
Exactly, that shows how both ideas are just silly. Everyone thinks everyone else is going to hell. It's good to know that hell is just a religious scare tactic to keep people in line that doesn't really exist.
I felt that exact same way, that they control everything! As a single man the brethren of the church were not very loving. None in the Elders Quarum ever reach out as much in friendship. We were supposed to chase girls, so it really just created more toxicity in the wards. Now I'm in a Christian Non-Denomination and I feel a great difference!
Any major shopping mall can be said to be helping X number of people and to be making Y difference in a local economy, of course. If you picture Jesus as really loving the idea of multi-billion dollar shopping malls (as opposed to various other uses for that money) hey it's up to you.
@soulfuljourney na man after watching this video, I asked questions and searched things out to find out the difference between, emotion and spirit, you see im a convert tot the church I have always had emotion but the spirit is something different, its the same yet different for everyperson, after my baptism, It was the most wonderful feeling in the world, I wish I could pause time at that moment that i felt pure and clean, That change that overcame me overnight which has changed my life forever
@tmiller5400 As they've already said, finding out that they church is not true, after honestly believing that it was, is really hard. Personally I was unshakeable sad for about two weeks before I could start to figure out how to move on. You really are losing something you loved, despite any problems. But in the end, I agree with the McLays. I had to act on the truth, even though it meant losing my church community. I needed to live authentically (something I learned at church!)
I feel so sorry for them. I can see & feel the pain they have. I have had many of the same questions and concerns, the problem is, I received personal revelation that I can not deny. I know the Church to be true, even with all it's flaws. God bless.
so i advise that when talking about someones religion you dont bag on them then expect them to not get angry. you should learn the truth for yourself before you go saying ridiculous comments. who knows maybe you might learn something and join the church because this church is AMAZING! i can testify that this is the true church and that the spirit that is felt there is like no other feeling i can describe, and that you would feel it too if you gave it a chance rather than insulting it. thank you
@MormonProphecy Don't you think he has stated that he comes from a self righteous background. He aspired to become a CES instructor for Pete's sake. Who does that? The Uber Mormons. I think this story is about how his beliefs came crashing down and started to conflict with his personal moral code of what is right and wrong. In other words, I think he has eaten some humble pie.
I'm loving the people confidently predicting that they're going to be divorced, or their kids will turn out badly, or that there was some inherent flaw in them for them to leave. That's some real Christian love for you. You guys keep cruelly insulting and twisting the knife on those with the temerity to ask questions, and the ranks of nontheists will keep growing at record rates :-)
Is 'faith' what it takes to put aside problematic questions and duck and weave around them, or what it takes to leave those issues 'off the shelf', front of mind. How about correlation of all the 'issues' people are encouraged to shelve?
"Faithless people who think they are smarter than god" That statement carries the faulty assumption that "those who set aside the things of the Lord" accept the existence of your "Lord" in the first place! No, I don't think I'm smarter than your Lord. I think I'm smarter than to think that your Lord exists in the first place. You are too ! :)
@tmiller5400 Yes, loss of one's reality is emotionally draining and numbing, as is losing one's community, having family judge them, etc... But then look at a pregnant woman after birth or a person after surgery. Often they look like crap and feel like crap, but afterwards they are all the better. People get drained when they move in many cases. Think about renovating a home. I have seen people go through this several times. Think about the Mormon pioneers after their treks.
"All churches have problems and challenges". Replace "churches" with "people" and you have a meaningful statement. I don't think we need to bury our heads in the bible in order to re-examine what's important in life and what the Mormons are doing wrong. Let's not bury our heads at all because I'll tell you first hand, when I went to Grand Targhee ski resort, the Grand Teton required no "teachings" for me to see it. Jesus is not the only way. There is no only way. We are free! Imagine that lol...
@Mrjony251 One example is one example and to study that concept would require a pretty deep psychological inquiry. Pavlov's Dog story would be something to look into. Beyond that, what you call 'the spirit' is felt by people hearing the Dalai Lama or other spiritual leaders from all faiths. The equivalent may be to say that Coke is the only soda with fizz, or sprite, and it is the one true soda. The LDS church does not have a monopoly on beautiful energy or nice feelings.
@SpencerLJensen as someone looking at all of this from the outside, I'm curious on your view of "unsavory truths" If the evidence (historical, scientific etc.) is in favor of an "unsavory truth", or something that contradicts a dogma of the religion, is the position that you must reject the evidence in favor of the dogma?
I'll give you the untold irony of this Mormon Story: Under Mormon doctrine, they are going to Hell (apostate Mormons and Satan's demons get Hell for eternity). AND under Christianity, they're going to hell for not believing on the Jesus who was slain for our redemption. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1st Cor 1:18
It would, however, send shock waves through the church if it were to acknowledge, for example, that plural marriage is not an approved doctrine of the church. In that event, one would almost unavoidably be led to conclude that JS was a power-drunk horndog on the prowl, which is hardly an image of him that is likely to inspire testimony. I can't help thinking about the RLDS church (or "Community of Christ"), whose sweeping doctrinal changes have ultimately left it greatly diminished.
Mormons live in a self righteous bubble, a club of arrogant judgmental people who look at the rest of society as unworthy. These people are more brave then all the Mormons combined, they gave up everything because they could not live a lie anymore. Im sure 99% of Mormons who watch this vid feel anger at these people but Mormons don't really know scripture. John 15:12: This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you. God bless these people, he will show them truth.
@tmiller5400 ps... there is a writing from the Gnostic Gospels that says 'Seek and you shall find and when you find it shall disturb you...' There are many people who find their psyche disturbed by all sorts of things in history when they look into American History or any history. Good luck with your integration of whatever you felt as you watched. It is lot for anyone to deal with watching whether inside or outside the church. Hopefully it gives all more depth who watch it.
The LDS church has some major issues to deal with. My guess is that active membership will continue to decline. The days of partial truths have passed, and the realization that their "spiritual" experiences, are universal and emotional, rather than confirmation from God that they've found the one and only truth. Is Joseph Smith really all that different from Warren Jeffs???
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You forgot to mention where the REAL Jesus Chirst is ...as I said You Forgot to point everybody in the right direction.
That is allowing hundreds of people to have jobs and provide for their families. It is also an investment and will allow to help millions in years to come. What is better helping 1000 people now, or 10,000 people in three years?
Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John very carefully again please. The message of Jesus was one of a transformative call to love God and love thy neighbor. Jesus didn't come to defend the building of billion dollar temples or to call on people to brag about their testimony and work. All churches have problems and challenges. Re-examine what Jesus was saying, keeping in mind he was living amid the poor, striving to liberate the oppressed, to feed the hungry, trying to help us learn to be reborn.
Jeremiah 17:9 The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? So if you are trusting your heart you are in a bad road, even with al it's flaws? I don't think God will be please with you trusting (yourself and an organization). Is not about a church, tell me sachamo, the name of the church has always been the same?
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What´s the truth? You forgot to point everybody in the right direction
Just to let you know, Sal, my wife totally agrees with Evolution. She's a Geologist and seen all the evidence. She is even a little extreme and believes in the evolution of Man. And she is still very, very active. Same with her Grandpa. He was a biologists and studying bugs and had the same scientific beliefs. And he served in a temple for years. Both VERY active, and faithful even with those beliefs. The science is not at odds with the Church
@MormonProphecy As opposed to the situation being just what they have explained it is? If you have to go back to the flaws of a 19-21-year-old in order to try and discredit the choices of the same individual 30 years later, even you should recognise that you are grasping at straws.
To be fair, he interrupts her a lot, too. I noticed him doing it first before I saw her doing it as well. I just figured that was their own way of talking to and with each other that they had developed over time.
I appreciate their story and their honesty and integrity. I would love to hear an update on this couple, where they are at in the faith journey all these years later.
I just listened to all four parts. I have been trying to overcome doubts over these same issues for about a year now. You are so lucky to be able to go through this journey together. My wife and I are on two very different paths. I'm struggling to keep our marriage together. It's very difficult to keep going to church when you don't believe and it's very difficult not to go when your family thinks you're doing something bad by not going. I feel for anyone who has to go through this incredibly difficult challenge in their life. This difficult journey is taken only by those who are the honest seekers of truth that also have the courage to actually open their eyes and see and their ears to hear the truth.
Jeramy Hawkes "My wife and I are on two very different paths." - That is very difficult and it does strain a relationship. As many believing Mormons are pointing out, the couple in this interview did get divorced and it's possible that different paths may have played a role - he seems to have become atheist, she seemed to be leaning toward seeking an approach to being Christian that is focused on agape love (at least at the time the video was made - it's difficult to tell if she'd remain Christian or become agnostic over time). People can remain married despite different religious beliefs or non-beliefs. But a significant change such as this is just difficult. It would take fairly extreme patience and love on both of your parts.
"I'm struggling to keep our marriage together." - You left out the "we." One person can't keep a marriage together, it takes two. The reason I comment on LDS related boards with anonymity is to be able to state sensitive things (in relation to the church for instance) while maintaining privacy for members of my extended family who are still members. I wonder if you'd mind a suggestion - if you need to vent about your wife's apparent lack of effort in the marriage (as is hinted at here), perhaps vent with anonymity when on the internet. M.any wives wouldn't appreciate leaving out the "we" if she is trying too. Please don't make mistakes on youtube that could damage your efforts in the marriage.
" It's very difficult to keep going to church when you don't believe and it's very difficult not to go when your family thinks you're doing something bad by not going." - Yep. Both of my parents experienced that. They remained members for decades after no longer believing. My mother had very strong family ties to the church on her side. It was beneficial for my father's sense of sanity that my mother had also stopped believing in LDS theology (both are Christian). However, he did attend the church for decades without believing in the theological claims of the church and it was an intensely painful thing for him.
writerteacher1 thanks for taking the time to comment on my comment. The reason why I'm not anonymous is because I hate being the one hiding in the shadows. I'm proud of the fact I'm searching for truth and I'm not ashamed of where it has lead me. I'm not going to hide and let the modern day Pharisees rule the day.
Jeramy Hawkes I understand. It has been two months since your original post so anything that jumped out at me in the comment as private/sensitive given your lack of anonymity is now old news to anyone in your life.
I hope that in the two months that have passed things have improved - in your marriage and in the other difficult choices you face.
I'm ex-Mormon myself. I know first-hand the pain that can be inflicted from LDS family and so-called friends after leaving the church. I also know from long conversations with my parents (my mom is now deceased) that the choice of staying or leaving when a marriage is impacted is a profoundly painful one.
Be well. And be happy.
Actually my marriage is likely going to fail and nobody in my family will talk to me. My oldest son just put his papers in to go on a mission. I was looking for friends. I think now I just need some drugs and alcohol.
Jeramy Hawkes The internet actually is a place where you can make long-distance penpals at least. There are ex-Mormon boards and of course other boards with people who may share common interests with you.
I'm sorry to hear about the likely failed marriage and other troubles.
It sounds like you have lots of Mormon family and (ex) friends around. If nothing else, you can use their possible nay-saying about you as motivation perhaps to show that they are wrong. Remember, there is a great deal of the prosperity anti-gospel in LDS culture, it's tied into the cultural sense of "worthiness" so the more you prosper it is a good form of revenge for any pain inflicted upon you. Anger is a negative emotion. It is typically highly destructive. However, you can also (with care not to let the anger get out of control, counter-balanced by love and understanding and forgiveness) tap into anger at times in ways that may be very productive in your life. The "I'm going to prove you wrong" or "Watch this" factor can be potent.
You and I likely both know the common stereotypes out there that Mormons tend to have about ex-Mormons. My extended family on my mother's side also doesn't talk with me (aside for one distant cousin who is also ex-Mormon and persona non grata in the rest of the family like me). There are lots of false stories told about me. If a child of mine were to try to reconnect with extended family years from now the false impression that people in my family who are Mormon (by belief or just culture in some cases) have of me would starkly conflict with the reality of the person that I am. That's among the saddest things to me - the side of the family that will become "my side" will be almost unrecognizable to the side of the family that at one time in my life used to be very loving toward me. But I'm also doing fine in my life. CZcams is a cathartic outlet and also a way to communicate about LDS topics while taking short breaks.
Would love an update on this lovely couple/family. ❤️
Agreed!
John & Brooke. Thank you for sharing your story.
Deeply, fully grateful to you John and Brooke McLay--your honesty and humility is refreshing. Truth requires action and courage and you both are truly courageous! Leaving our dishonest Church is necessary and a rising tide is building where literally thousands and millions stand wit h you!
Also, thanks to the McLays (and mormonstories) for sharing this story in a positive and uplifting manner. This has helped me in my own recent journey (which hasn't taken me to remove my records from the church, yet) in discovering what I believe to be the truth. It's refreshing that you present yourselves in a way that isn't bitter or antagonistic towards the church, and that gives me hope in maintaining a positive filter through which I can look at the church.
I've been looking for something like this on the internet for off and on for the last few years. This is really what I needed to hear. John and Brooke are an amazing couple that really have helped me out due to this video. Thanks to Mormon Stories and the Mclay's for this great video!
The McLay's are great. I really enjoyed this interview. I'm still in the church, meaning I haven't left. But I'm sort of where John is; my whole world blew up, and it's not only about Mormonism, but about religion in general and God.....I'm on the journey.
John said he was looking for therapy through telling his story and it is definitely a healing and educational journey for so many and hearing stories like this is so fundamental. It is a group therapy process as we all piece together our relationship to our individual and collective experiences inside and outside of the LDS church. Thanks John and Brooke for your courage and sharing your stories and insights with us through this format.
Thank you very much. I remember almost every point that you talked about. I almost went insane before I came out of the dark tunnel. Hang in there. I am now a active Methodist and feel like there is light after Mormonism.
Atheism has set me so free and I’m embracing this life❤️
Oh my goodness I just want to Hug you Both so much😢 it takes Courage to speak your Truth!!! You are Beautiful Good Kind Loving People always know that!! Sending you all my Love and Thank you🙏🏽😘😘xxxxxxxx
Its the social club in mormonism she misses. Its not the worship part. Its the friendships she developed. The parties. The support. The womens night for crafts and cooking. Thats what she misses.
Old comment, but I miss feeling like I was a daughter of god.
One of my fave Mormon Stories interview ever! I’d love to know where this lovely family is now ❤️
They have divorced.
@@39dwc ... I know I saw that on line. Best wishes to them each and you.
@@39dwc Did John go back?
@@neitan6891 back to the church? I don’t think so.
I love these guys. Truth is so much more powerful than dogma. Such courage and beauty.
Love your beautiful story.
Tim Minchin! 😁
I am proud of the McLay's for having the courage to "do what is right, let the consequence follow." Once they discovered that the LDS Church's curriculum and leaders embrace the principle of lying for the Lord to beat the devil at his own game since "not all truth is useful," this wonderful couple graduated from Mormonism after recognizing the Church for what it is: the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
Lie's are deception! Fact LDS have Jesus Christ in there name is biggest deception. More Lucifer than for good. All truth is useful! Any lie's are not! You must work for Liar like Lucifer!
Justin Snyder
Wrong again Justin... careful how you use the trial as your evidence
James 1:2-4
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
+Justin Snyder Job faced financial destruction, emotional turmoil, sickness, and the loss of his family -- was this because he apostatized from the One True Church?
I ask that question in the serene confidence that it provoke another outburst of illiterate, slogan-spewing vituperation. Cultists are like that.
+Justin Snyder Job faced financial destruction, emotional turmoil, sickness, and the loss of his family -- was this because he apostatized from the One True Church?
I ask that question in the serene confidence that it provoke another outburst of illiterate, slogan-spewing vituperation. Cultists are like that.
+Justin Snyder , Another Christlike Mormon. Justin, When people believe that bad things only happen to bad people, it's called the prosperity doctrine. Televangelists love to spout this stuff. When bad things happen to you is it because you're are a bad person? Or do you pretend that bad things never happen to you?
Now, instead of one arm around Joseph & one arm around Jesus, you have both arms around Jesus! That's what I call progress and joy! Yes, freedom!
John, John and Brooke, you talk about several points regarding the damage done by CES that I've personally come to believe over the last few years.
1. By not being taught the truth, kids are set up to have crisis of faith
2. By vilifying sex, LDS marriages are set up to have problems
3. Children are set up to feel inferior if they don't have the conversion experience
4. By teaching that emotion = truth we teach kids to avoid critical thinking
and many others...amazing podcast, thank you.
"The harm is done in the dishonesty - it harms young people" ... John McLay
I like honest ex-believers more than dishonest believers - I think we all identify positively with truth, and when it is not present, we instinctively have to remove ourselves for our spiritual health.
Thank you to John and Brooke for sharing the "reality" of their experience extricating themselves from "illusion." Truth is the core value that needs to be reclaimed. Thoughts...Feelings....Actions. Trivium based analytically, logically, syllogistically determined thoughts must be cultivated prior to the endorsement of the feelings. Openness and honesty and an awareness of the self...the true self outside of the ego identification with any organization is one of the keys to a healthy capacity to move forward motivated by the WILL from a truly CARING heart and mind. These two have built my soul and renewed my hope and faith in the quest for that which is as opposed to that which is not. Lovely...lovely people.
When the church elders say that the CES is failing, it looks to me like the church is set up so that the successes are attributed to the church, but the failures are all people's fault. That's insidious, sinister and delusional. There will be "on the right side" that is nearly impossible to humanly want to violate, and then there's "on the wrong side," which creates oppositionalism, which is just the flip side of that. I've been away for 30 years now, and I'm so glad I found that the Church is not the gatekeeper to God or anything. The church doesn't have to do with a person's truth, forgiveness, giving, honesty or anything like that. It can make someone a liar who doesn't have real love in them, a pharisee. Or not.
That is the exact set up, they get credit for all the good that members do and when bad things happen it is the members's fault, lack of faith, apostasy etc. Good business practice.
29:20 -I went to EFY in Idaho once during the summer when I was a kid. I literally only packed shorts and flip flops (no shoes, and no long pants, except maybe for church).
I got pulled aside by a counselor on I think just 2 days before it ended, chastising me for being "immodest" and not living the BYUI dress code, and telling me I needed to change before I participated in any more activities. Apparently shorts and flip flops are like, satanic there.
Keep in mind, it was about 85 degrees (29 C) at the time, and when I informed him I had no other pants (just other shorts) he about lost it. It turned into this huge ordeal, with him taking me back to some admin offices to figure out how to handle a Code Red situation, and being a kid with no debit card, venmo, etc. for my parents to send me money to "buy more pants" (which was their proposed solution), they almost had my parents drive up with more clothing for me.
I honestly don't even remember the exact details on this part, but I'm pretty sure they got me special permission from a BYUI administrator, and the stake president, for me to wear flip flops and shorts for the last 2 days since I didnt have anything else.
I just remember sitting in administration offices for a day, getting multiple scoldings for disrupting the spirit of campus and not honoring my priesthood, and finally being "let go" back to my company.
It was really whacky.
Anytime religious people scream "Satanic" it's just a projection of their own insecurities. Makes me laugh.
I am not a Mormon but live ground zero land of the funny underwear. I really enjoy watching Mormon stories, they do an excellent job. John Dehlin is the best person they could have pick for these stories. He look like he could fit in with the Osmond Family, some where between the 7th and 10th Brother.I have Mormons in my family and Mormons friends, I try and get them to watch the very first Mormon Story. I hope that I can get them hooked on these documentaries as am I. God bless keep up the work
Hi Kimslim, I was actually very nice to CindyBin through a series of her rude comments. I was very active for over 50 years, but facts are facts.
For 30 years while the Blacks were still slaves we called them cursed
For almost 100 years the Blacks were mistreated we called them cursed
For 30 years while they fought for civil rights we called them cursed
I have read B.Young, M. E. Peterson & B. R. McConkie - when the lawsuits came and BYU sports were in danger - it was just went away
I wish this lovely, honest couple the best. ❤️
Thanks for your story
Excellent 4 part pod cast. Thank you.
WOW, what a really great sense of humor. I am impressed. You made my day.
Thank you!
Yep! Emotional feelings are fully unreliable...also, the mental body must be overcome because it cannot survive death it is only the servant of soul. Rise above the world, become content, become elegant in your freedom. Merge with the inner Lord and receive His grace. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you".
It just amazes me how people find the truth, but let the church still tug at their heart strings. Where is the courage of their convictions? When I first started watching these Mclay videos I had so much respect for what they were doing. It just shows how much of a cult Mormonism is. Evil! Evil! Evil!
John and Brooke McLay
You are good people and others are lucky to have you as friends.
When one door closes, other and often a better door opens up. What a great couple and I hope and pray for you and your Family. Brooke, I'll light a candle in my Catholic church for you and John, and your 4 children. Never-Mormon from Midvale/Murray area...I so lucky I never had a reason to check out The Mormon Church. Plus, I hate BYZOOO football, 'Go Irish"...Thank you for sharing your story...
Born members could be taught the true history and probably accept it. People can justify pretty much anything. The actual historical doctrine just isn't very good for the growth model the church wants for missions. Frankly, if you taught all the actual historical doctrine the church wouldn't grow and would have a huge decline.
The problem with the milk before meat theory is they never intend get to the meat and when we find out on our own we find out it's is barely recognizable or completely the opposite to what we have been taught before.
I think this is key. When we take into consideration the mystical experience, I think it's important to really understand it. I submitted one of my videos ON the mystical experience as a video response because I think it is so important to understand - to keep from being lead into a false belief and/or system of beliefs.
I really admire your choice to simply and clearly explain your experience. So many times what you've said has mirrored the process that I (and pretty much all of my ex-Mormon friends) went through after coming to the conclusion that the church was not 'true' (not founded on truth, does not have authority to speak or act for God, hides its history, etc).
One of the main questions discussed is if the church leadership would change what's taught to be more in line with what actually happened. I just don't see that ever happening. Like John said, some of the stuff is just so out there, it would be ultimately detrimental to the faith of the core group of active members. It's a risk analysis: Do the Brethren risk losing 5% of the curious "fringe" members, or 75% of the blissfully obedient (and unaware). And THAT is why we feel betrayed and lied to.
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." (John 13:34)
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:20).
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8).
Too much talk of "haters." Be a Mormon. Or don't. Love God and love one another. Be loving in words and actions.
Amazing courage by this couple--I have walked much of the same path, and felt every word and feeling. They articulate their experience extremely well, and are very fair to the church and the good people still there. I disagree with John in regards to there likely not being many defectors going forward--here in Zion I am encountering more and more people, including those with greater knowledge and experience, who are leaving. I have spent so much time reflecting on what is discussed here--thanks.
@45:38, this disarmingly appealing and tremendously articulate couple nails one of the most insidious control techniques in the LDS Church: Using irresistible sentiment as a delivery system for indoctrination. That church was hardly the first or only organization or movement to employ it, but the way this is done in Mormonism is uncannily effective.
Consider the familiar first Sunday ritual in which children are taught to "bear their testimonies" -- which is to say, recite potted assurances they could not possibly understand, and make assertions of knowledge that they couldn't possibly possess. The standard script runs something like this: "I want to bear my testimony that I know the Church is true, I love my mommy and daddy" -- or perhaps the second statement would be, "I know my mommy and daddy love me."
In either case, by publicly testifying in this fashion, the child is stating and endorsing the idea that belief in the "truth" of Mormonism is indissolubly connected to the love that connects the child to his or her parents. Entertaining doubts regarding those claims would be an intimate and shocking betrayal: It would mean either that you don't really love your parents, or that their love for you isn't authentic. This is why adult children of faithful Mormons are accused of scorning and despising their parents when they examine their inevitable doubts honestly, rather than choking them down or putting them on the proverbial shelf.
It seems reasonable to suspect that all of this helps explain why Utah is a perennial leader among states in the use of prescription anti-depressants.
Yes...?
+FreedomZealot You nailed it. Here's something I wrote on that.
Mind Control
On the first Sunday of each month from the time you were a small child your mother would take your hand in hers and lead you up the Church aisle to the podium. She would stand you on a step in front of the podium and the podium and microphone would be lowered within reach.
The words she would whisper in your ear for you to repeat were:
"I know the Book of Mormon is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God".
You would see countless children do this and hear countless adults do so also.
How does any child know these things? They don't.
Have they read the Book of Mormon? Of course not.
Have they read any history on Joseph Smith or the Mormon Church. Of course not.
It's called coercive persuasion, mind control or thought control.
Theories of mind control and religious conversion.
Over the years various theories of conversion and member retention have been proposed that link mind control to some new religious movements (NRMs), particularly those religious movements referred to as "cults" by their critics. Philip Zimbardo discusses mind control as "the process by which individual or collective freedom of choice and action is compromised by agents or agencies that modify or distort perception, motivation, affect, cognition and/or behavioral outcomes",[34] and he suggests that any human being is susceptible to such manipulation.
When the truth of this is recognized don't beat yourself up and don't blame your parents.
They were victims too.
A Cult is an organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact.
You guys speak as though sentiment is bad, that people who express it in public speaking or teaching are being deceitful. Isn't happiness or unhappiness based on feelings?
FreedomZeal
Ok, here's one example out of countless others I've received over the years.- I was walking to church one day when I suddenly felt very sick. After arriving there, I received a priesthood blessing. Too sick to attend any meeting , I went and sat in a vacant room. After some time in there I started to dose off and that's when I felt a most beautiful and sweet breeze go through my body and the sickness was gone - apart from a mild head ach which was nothing in comparison Hope this helps.
Thanks for sharing. I agree they are an amazing, courageous couple. I have gone through the same emotion. Not yet resigning though.
I love it when kids who take seminary argue with my History teacher about church history.
Well this was very interesting. Both John and Brooke seem like terrific people and I enjoyed very much listening to their story. However I fail to see why Mormon Stories expends so much effort to produce a 5 1/2 hr story, and by the looks of it hundreds of other stories?
I admire you two for your integrity. I don't think I believe now either, but I don't have the courage to tell people because it would destroy my life. I have the choice of living a lie or losing my family, friends, and identity. I choose to fake it for now.
I served a mission with McLay. When he had problems and his companion couldn't handle him being self righteous, his companion actually walked out and refused to serve with him. He then lost his testimony and the Mission President had to put him in the office. I assume the same thing happened and he felt like his wife was leaving him or going to leave him.
It's a good thing he's found clarity with church history.
I don't think you can fake the spirit with emotions, A general authority came to my school, and I had a bunch of negative feelings about the church going into it. as I sat there, he was not talking about anything that related to my problems but his presence brought an overwhelming spirit into the room, that I didnt get anywere else.
i escaped the cult in 1991 and ran into the loving arms of the REAL jesus christ...left the mormons brother... IM NOW FREE !!!
This series of videos was excellent. Thanks mormonstories. Hope thinks work out for the McLays.
If you know the this church is not true how could you want the people you love to stay in it. Their souls are at stake.
i do like that comment its the only non negative one ive seen here. i am mormon and i can say that we are not trying to post negative comments about any church, we are trying to defend ourselves from all the negative comments people are posting about our church, and in the process we may come off a little rude but that doesnt mean that were trying to bag on anyone
The Mormon church needs to go away and stop ripping people off!!
The problem with members of the church, the community, and growing up with it, is that everyone wants to help you and give you what you need. But what you need and what they 'think' you need are not the same thing. It's selfish to ask one or try to help some one live the way you do because you just "know" the church is true and that it will help everyone.
does religion make people naive? or does naivete make people religious? of is religion just a form of naivete ?
@MrMFHORN I saw no intention to "seek out the negative." Yours is a common response to stories such as the McLay's. These people asked questions and sought answers as church members are invited to do and came to an honest conclusion. You are upset because that conclusion is different than what you believe, and so you lash out, as countless others have.
Is there an update about this couple’s journey? Did they make it through? Please let us know no matter the out come.
Is that Timothy Olyphant from Justified and Deadwood
brianleedurfee I was thinking the same thing.
Love one another, in spirit and truth. Seek not disorder but peace. Be giving and self-sacrificing, "for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 16: 25).
The right direction is not returning anger for anger. It is not in and eye for an eye. It is in love. You can find fault with words and actions of others. But you and I both have motes too. I have mine.
Exactly, that shows how both ideas are just silly. Everyone thinks everyone else is going to hell. It's good to know that hell is just a religious scare tactic to keep people in line that doesn't really exist.
I knew them personally. John even mentioned that he is divorced and is now single.
I felt that exact same way, that they control everything! As a single man the brethren of the church were not very loving. None in the Elders Quarum ever reach out as much in friendship. We were supposed to chase girls, so it really just created more toxicity in the wards. Now I'm in a Christian Non-Denomination and I feel a great difference!
I have awesome guy friendships in the church, but the gospel focuses too much on certain things rather than really loving your neighbor!
Any major shopping mall can be said to be helping X number of people and to be making Y difference in a local economy, of course. If you picture Jesus as really loving the idea of multi-billion dollar shopping malls (as opposed to various other uses for that money) hey it's up to you.
@soulfuljourney na man after watching this video, I asked questions and searched things out to find out the difference between, emotion and spirit, you see im a convert tot the church I have always had emotion but the spirit is something different, its the same yet different for everyperson, after my baptism, It was the most wonderful feeling in the world, I wish I could pause time at that moment that i felt pure and clean, That change that overcame me overnight which has changed my life forever
@tmiller5400 As they've already said, finding out that they church is not true, after honestly believing that it was, is really hard. Personally I was unshakeable sad for about two weeks before I could start to figure out how to move on. You really are losing something you loved, despite any problems. But in the end, I agree with the McLays. I had to act on the truth, even though it meant losing my church community. I needed to live authentically (something I learned at church!)
I feel so sorry for them. I can see & feel the pain they have. I have had many of the same questions and concerns, the problem is, I received personal revelation that I can not deny. I know the Church to be true, even with all it's flaws. God bless.
I watched all 4 parts and still not sure what happened; so they are no longer Mormons?? are they excommunicated?? being shunned??? what??
Study mind control and you will understand why the church enforces rules on how we should dress and what we can eat, drink etc.
so i advise that when talking about someones religion you dont bag on them then expect them to not get angry. you should learn the truth for yourself before you go saying ridiculous comments. who knows maybe you might learn something and join the church because this church is AMAZING! i can testify that this is the true church and that the spirit that is felt there is like no other feeling i can describe, and that you would feel it too if you gave it a chance rather than insulting it. thank you
@MormonProphecy Don't you think he has stated that he comes from a self righteous background. He aspired to become a CES instructor for Pete's sake. Who does that? The Uber Mormons. I think this story is about how his beliefs came crashing down and started to conflict with his personal moral code of what is right and wrong. In other words, I think he has eaten some humble pie.
It's very sad that they are now divorced. It's my understand she is dating a widower. Does anyone know where his life has gone? What is he is doing?
I'm loving the people confidently predicting that they're going to be divorced, or their kids will turn out badly, or that there was some inherent flaw in them for them to leave. That's some real Christian love for you. You guys keep cruelly insulting and twisting the knife on those with the temerity to ask questions, and the ranks of nontheists will keep growing at record rates :-)
Amen, the almighty spaghetti monster must fill the their emptiness! R-AMEN!
The first flaw was Joseph Smith, and this is the man you worship??
Is 'faith' what it takes to put aside problematic questions and duck and weave around them, or what it takes to leave those issues 'off the shelf', front of mind. How about correlation of all the 'issues' people are encouraged to shelve?
"Faithless people who think they are smarter than god" That statement carries the faulty assumption that "those who set aside the things of the Lord" accept the existence of your "Lord" in the first place! No, I don't think I'm smarter than your Lord. I think I'm smarter than to think that your Lord exists in the first place. You are too ! :)
@tmiller5400 Yes, loss of one's reality is emotionally draining and numbing, as is losing one's community, having family judge them, etc... But then look at a pregnant woman after birth or a person after surgery. Often they look like crap and feel like crap, but afterwards they are all the better. People get drained when they move in many cases. Think about renovating a home. I have seen people go through this several times. Think about the Mormon pioneers after their treks.
"All churches have problems and challenges". Replace "churches" with "people" and you have a meaningful statement. I don't think we need to bury our heads in the bible in order to re-examine what's important in life and what the Mormons are doing wrong. Let's not bury our heads at all because I'll tell you first hand, when I went to Grand Targhee ski resort, the Grand Teton required no "teachings" for me to see it. Jesus is not the only way. There is no only way. We are free! Imagine that lol...
@Mrjony251 One example is one example and to study that concept would require a pretty deep psychological inquiry. Pavlov's Dog story would be something to look into. Beyond that, what you call 'the spirit' is felt by people hearing the Dalai Lama or other spiritual leaders from all faiths. The equivalent may be to say that Coke is the only soda with fizz, or sprite, and it is the one true soda. The LDS church does not have a monopoly on beautiful energy or nice feelings.
@SpencerLJensen as someone looking at all of this from the outside, I'm curious on your view of "unsavory truths"
If the evidence (historical, scientific etc.) is in favor of an "unsavory truth", or something that contradicts a dogma of the religion, is the position that you must reject the evidence in favor of the dogma?
I'll give you the untold irony of this Mormon Story: Under Mormon doctrine, they are going to Hell (apostate Mormons and Satan's demons get Hell for eternity). AND under Christianity, they're going to hell for not believing on the Jesus who was slain for our redemption. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1st Cor 1:18
Could you give a source on that? I don't see any source saying that.
It would, however, send shock waves through the church if it were to acknowledge, for example, that plural marriage is not an approved doctrine of the church. In that event, one would almost unavoidably be led to conclude that JS was a power-drunk horndog on the prowl, which is hardly an image of him that is likely to inspire testimony. I can't help thinking about the RLDS church (or "Community of Christ"), whose sweeping doctrinal changes have ultimately left it greatly diminished.
Other churches have truth. Don't get me wrong.
Mormons live in a self righteous bubble, a club of arrogant judgmental people who look at the rest of society as unworthy. These people are more brave then all the Mormons combined, they gave up everything because they could not live a lie anymore. Im sure 99% of Mormons who watch this vid feel anger at these people but Mormons don't really know scripture.
John 15:12: This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you. God bless these people, he will show them truth.
@tmiller5400 ps... there is a writing from the Gnostic Gospels that says 'Seek and you shall find and when you find it shall disturb you...' There are many people who find their psyche disturbed by all sorts of things in history when they look into American History or any history. Good luck with your integration of whatever you felt as you watched. It is lot for anyone to deal with watching whether inside or outside the church. Hopefully it gives all more depth who watch it.
Okay. I'm sorry for the second post, but 35:15 had me LOSING IT. X'D
The LDS church has some major issues to deal with. My guess is that active membership will continue to decline. The days of partial truths have passed, and the realization that their "spiritual" experiences, are universal and emotional, rather than confirmation from God that they've found the one and only truth. Is Joseph Smith really all that different from Warren Jeffs???
You forgot to mention where the REAL Jesus Chirst is ...as I said You Forgot to point everybody in the right direction.
That is allowing hundreds of people to have jobs and provide for their families. It is also an investment and will allow to help millions in years to come. What is better helping 1000 people now, or 10,000 people in three years?
Ok so are they in or are they out of the church I cant watch anymore its gone one for hours and hours.
Thank you for sharing!! I see John McLay on Facebook, where is Brooke now?
Janiene Watson Brooke doesn’t have a personal page. She’s more focused on her photography business.
I guess they got divorced? It says she's married to a Nate lark now.
facebook.com/brooke.b.mclay
Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John very carefully again please. The message of Jesus was one of a transformative call to love God and love thy neighbor. Jesus didn't come to defend the building of billion dollar temples or to call on people to brag about their testimony and work. All churches have problems and challenges. Re-examine what Jesus was saying, keeping in mind he was living amid the poor, striving to liberate the oppressed, to feed the hungry, trying to help us learn to be reborn.
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Jeremiah 17:9 The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? So if you are trusting your heart you are in a bad road, even with al it's flaws? I don't think God will be please with you trusting (yourself and an organization). Is not about a church, tell me sachamo, the name of the church has always been the same?
What´s the truth? You forgot to point everybody in the right direction
This guy is very impressive. The wife's thoughts are ruled by emotion (SAD) i would hate to be pumped full of estrogen.
Just to let you know, Sal, my wife totally agrees with Evolution. She's a Geologist and seen all the evidence. She is even a little extreme and believes in the evolution of Man. And she is still very, very active. Same with her Grandpa. He was a biologists and studying bugs and had the same scientific beliefs. And he served in a temple for years. Both VERY active, and faithful even with those beliefs. The science is not at odds with the Church
There is evolution within a species but not from one species to another...man does not evolve from apes..
@MormonProphecy As opposed to the situation being just what they have explained it is? If you have to go back to the flaws of a 19-21-year-old in order to try and discredit the choices of the same individual 30 years later, even you should recognise that you are grasping at straws.
I wish she would stop interupting her husband.
To be fair, he interrupts her a lot, too. I noticed him doing it first before I saw her doing it as well. I just figured that was their own way of talking to and with each other that they had developed over time.