Dear Julia, No one could have said it better. I have had many disputes on this topic with many violinists trying to convince them of what you said. Thank you.
Really interesting and valuable first-hand explanations regarding the “Russian bow hold”. It would so nice if you could explain the differences in tone production among the three great violin bow hold schools mentioned by Flesch. It a privilege to have the opportunity to watch videos like this. Thank you very much
thanks a lot for the benefits and the downsides of this bowhold .... it cerainly is responsible for the sound ...which one can change bowholds for certain sounds ... all very very unique and depends on your bone structure and proportions
Hello, according to Vesna Gruppman and her husband Igor Gruppman (Concertmaster Rotterdam Philharmonic, ex- concert master London Symphony) who use this bow hold, it is indeed misnamed Russian bow hold because of what you mentioned. After 1917, everything changed in Russia, and a lot of the old players just left and went to the USA. However, before that, musicians from all over Europe frequently traveled to Russia and everyone influenced each other. Vesna Gruppman claims that it is a bowhold that was also used in western Europe and Wienawski was one of the main proponents of this bow hold. In essence, it was all inter related , and everyone that was in contact with one another influenced each other.
Absolutely fascinating! What's curious is that Milstein, Elman, Heifetz kept their right arm down and their elbows very close to their torsos. Could this have been the result of their lessons with Auer?
Very good video and very useful to me, thanks. I very much enjoyed the title "Яussian" which obviously translates to sound like "Yah-ussian." Gave me a chuckle. Much appreciated
Great video. That's really interesting. My professor taught me Franco - Belgian but also that you can take the fingers off gradually on the down bow.. which Iv'e now discovered is more Russian...how interesting.
It is being said (rumored) that, Russian Bow Hold (RBH) was introduced to Auer by Mischa Elman, and Auer was quick to adapt it. About Russian Bow Hold, it is largely misjudged (due to the pronation of the hand/palm) of bow being held between the middle joint and the base joint of index finger. But in fact most of the time the bow was held between the nail joint and the middle joint (of index finger). First three fingers were held together (Milstein had held the fingers too closely/tightly which looked like a rigid wrist). In Maia Bang's violin book (which advocated Leopold Auer method of teaching, as she was assistant with Auer), it is more clearly stated that bow should lie in slanting position between 'the first and second joint (that is the nail and middle joint) of the index finger' and between 'the end and the first joint of the little finger'. Heifetz went a bit further (beyond the middle joint of index finger) for creating harmonics or very soft (ppp pianizinizimo) sounds. Even Elman has brought the bow till the middle joint, but since he slanted his bow very much, it looked like the bow hold went beyond the middle joint.
Thank you so much for making this video! Excellent presentation and explanation. Amazing how much of the history of violin pedagogy goes back to Hungary - thinking of Auer and Joachim...
I was taught the "Auer" bow grip, then when I got to the university, they tried to make me change. I absolutely could not change, but I could do all of the advanced bowing techniques except down-bow staccato. So my teacher finally gave up changing it. Later, when I switched to viola, my bow grip changed almost overnight to Franco-Belgian. I can't explain why.
Thank you for making this video and sharing this information. You answered everything I wanted to know. Thank you Thank you! Sincerely, a string teacher
Thanks, this was really helpful for me. My teachers (great teachers, professionals indeed) they didn't explained me this. This was a nice cultural/history lesson. Subscribed 👍🏻🤍
Thank for this informative video . According to Zimbalist who saw Heifetz play before he started studying with Auer Heifetzs technique was already fully formed and Auer only helped him with interpretation . Heifetz first taught by his father in Odessa where he had already caused a sensation......perhaps the old Russian bow hold was used alongside other bow holds back then (the classical world of violin technique could not have been totally defined by national borders) I think it may have been Carl Flesch who coined the term Russian, Franco Belgian and German (Joachim) bow holds . .......
I live in Italy, and I often see Italian violinists, mainly from the older generation, that use a sort of Russian bow hold but they have nothing to do with Russia or Hungary. What I think is that in the past, with a greater personalization of violin technique than today, there was a greater variety of bow holds in every country. So defining them with a nationality term is, in my opinion, uncorrect. And we can't forget that the term "Franco-Belgian school" (founded by the Italian Viotti) is sometimes used to indicate all the West Europe school, that was the predominant one before the rise of Russia.
In fact, most of the so-called 'modern Russian school' - after or along with the Auer's - has been based on Franco-Belgian principles. Konstantin Mostras, for instance, the main teacher of Ivan Galamian, was an exponent of Fr-Belgian school, too.
Considering that there are so many factors regarding tone production. Do you think that the bow hold of Auer's pupils its a crucial factor of the particularities of their sound? Great video by the way!!
Потому что, Франко бельгийская более гибкая и в прямом и в переносном смысле. Мне тоже нравится "Русская" постановка у учеников Ауэра, но это совсем другая концепция, такому сейчас не учат. Обычно пытаются совместить русскую постановку пальцев с Франко бельгийской техникой остальной руки. Заканчивается походом к физиотерапевту.
Мой профессор в конс. держал так, глубоко. Играл прекрасно..и звук, стаккато вверх и вниз в бешенном темпе- все было. Он считал, что это дело индивидуальное и не нужно бояться пробовать разное удержание смычка. К сожалению советская школа часто опиралась на догмы.
@@OttoKuus My teacher was straight from a student of Auer, the "french" grip was never even an option. It feels pretty much tarded hand when you try doing it after learning the Russian (Hungarian) all your life.
Fair point. And you can add that few of the most famous exponents were Russian - rather they were Ukrainian and Lithuanian. It could also be called the Carl Flesch hold as he promoted it in his "Art of Violin Playing". So far as I can determine, it was Flesch who came up with confusing name "Russian" for the hold. If you were hoping for insights into the actual technique, there's a dearth of good information on CZcams. Here's an insightful discussion of the pros and cons from the perspective of a Jazz specialist: czcams.com/video/AEKbVVZjMm0/video.html Unfortunately he uses an extreme version, with the bow held in the knuckle joint. From my study of the tradition, none of the great exponents did this - the first finger contact was at or just above the middle joint.
When I saw this bow hold, I was very sceptical, but I tried it, and I kinda liked it. The sound is much stronger. My fingers/wrist tend to be very loose anyway, so I found it firms things up. I also noticed that it's impossible to play right at the heel, since the fingers touch the bow hairs/strings; and also the thumb pokes slightly thru the gap between stick and hairs. Would you say there are any caveats when using this hold?
Auer was actually quite liberal in his observations of bow holds (he writes in great details of how every violinist held it differently) and apparently felt a Franco Belgian bow hold was better suited for taller people while the Russian suited shorter people with short arms (like Elman) who'd have trouble near the tip. There are pictures of Heifetz as a 6-7 year old kid holding it that way so it's probably something intrinsic and not completely something that was taught - or maybe everyone held it that way and the children just picked it up. Wieniawski seems to have popularized it as it was needed for his stiff armed blazingly fast staccatto. The Russian gives an intense penetrating sound and has advantages in the upper 2/3rds of the bow (but there's too much pressure to play at the frog, you have to kind of lift the bow a bit by raising the wrist up to relieve the pressure). And pronating the wrist that much can lock it up. It also forces you to raise the elbow and the shoulder on the lower strings and if you have a long arm, over time, this could lead to shoulder impingement issues (it's what caused Heifetz to stop playing). The Franco Belgian leaves the wrist and fingers more flexible and gives a fatter tone. It excels at the frog and helps make super smooth chords with its light action. But in the upper half of the bow, the Russian really lets you lean on the stick. You can see that in the way all the old school violinists played more in the upper 2/3rd of the bow while today's violinists play more at the frog.
Thank you for your very detailed and knowledgeable comment. Yes, the shorter-armed people may be better suited for the Old-Russian hold, although a very tall Leonidas Kavakos plays with it, too - and he does it in a drastically different way from Heifetz. So let's hope that he would not acquire any impingements in the shoulder. Leopold Auer did not use to teach any hand set up to his outstanding students back in Russia, all of whom came to him when they were already accomplished young performers.
I went to St. Petersburg in 2000 on a romance ... She put a Russian bow hold on me. ... I wonder if there may be a slight advantage in this style in helping to keep the bow parallel to the bridge. Perhaps it can be employed as a bowing technique for certain pieces ?
Hungarian bow hold it is... Thank you for your information. I had no clue what bow hold it was but self teaching and with my tiny hands, the hungarian bow hold feels more comfortable to me.. I'm 4'10". 😅
Excellent video. However on seeing your examples of famous people I have to ask. How on earth do they play with right elbow down? How do they get to the G string?
good day miss bushkova ? do u do online classes if so im new and wish to learn to play the violin the correct way i like how u teach so if u do lert me know.thank you and have a great day
Hello, I do occasional lesson-consultations when my time allows. For online lesson, I have several recommendations I'd be happy to share. Contact me via my website
The Russian bow hold feels more clumsy and puts more weight on the string. The other hold is lighter and the manipulation feels more dexterous; and less weight on the string?
I really don’t see why it matters! Like really he probably called it the Russian bow hold because he developed it in Russia 🇷🇺 and he also most likely called it the Russian bow hold out of respect for the Russian people so I don’t see why this Russian women is insulted by the name ???? The Russian bow hold is a fine technique and I like to use it a lot it works for me and my music does not suffer because of the technique , actually the Russian bow hold helped me greatly it is a fair better technique for learning when your first starting to learn because it’s so simple and effective but once I learned how to play I switch to different techniques and I greatly improved again and again because of the Russian bow hold , so I think you should give it more credit it’s a very nice bow technique!!!
I never said it was a bad technique. And why would I be "insulted"? My video was about something completely different. I am sorry that my point flew by without being understood. Good luck with your violin explorations
What about the "bow hold" from the famous teacher, the late Professor Yuri Yankelavic who produced many famous Soviet violinist who won prizes at International competition.
when i watch videos of me playing i hold the bow like that. it just seems to happen naturally even though i learned from various violinists and fiddle players that use other bow holds. i try tto adjust it but always goes back to this hold.
Older times there weren't shoulder rests. That's why bow hold must be different. Because without shoulder rest, violin rests toward more left side. In my observation somehow Heifetz hold his bow the most unique his own way.
Dear Julia, No one could have said it better. I have had many disputes on this topic with many violinists trying to convince them of what you said. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind words.
Finally someone says it clear
Thank you so much for your interesting classes, Prof. Bushkova!
you are truly such a Gifted Teacher. Very clear, engaging and I really LOVE your videos! God bless Julia
Thanks a million Julia. I have read Leapold auer and Carl Flesch s books and your clarification is an eye opener to me. Sincere regards!
Really interesting and valuable first-hand explanations regarding the “Russian bow hold”. It would so nice if you could explain the differences in tone production among the three great violin bow hold schools mentioned by Flesch. It a privilege to have the opportunity to watch videos like this.
Thank you very much
Sorry for the missing words...🤦🏻♂️
You deserve as many subscribers as twoset, at least
Thank you for your amazing work!
Thank you! 😃
Excellent clarification of a widely propagated misnomer in classical violin playing. Thank you Prof. Bushkova!
Lol I didn't expect to see you in a non-performance classical music video where you would write an essay of compliments
So interesting, a lot of good information!
Thank you Dr. Bushkova
Excellent analysis and history of Auer’s bow hold.
This is really good! Thank you for demystifying this subject in a succinct way.
Beautiful humour ... and down to the point. What a great mixture :)
thanks a lot for the benefits and the downsides of this bowhold .... it cerainly is responsible for the sound ...which one can change bowholds for certain sounds ... all very very unique and depends on your bone structure and proportions
Hello, according to Vesna Gruppman and her husband Igor Gruppman (Concertmaster Rotterdam Philharmonic, ex- concert master London Symphony) who use this bow hold, it is indeed misnamed Russian bow hold because of what you mentioned. After 1917, everything changed in Russia, and a lot of the old players just left and went to the USA. However, before that, musicians from all over Europe frequently traveled to Russia and everyone influenced each other. Vesna Gruppman claims that it is a bowhold that was also used in western Europe and Wienawski was one of the main proponents of this bow hold. In essence, it was all inter related , and everyone that was in contact with one another influenced each other.
Very Interesting ..Thank you for clearing up a lot in my mind about Bow Hold
Very clear , simple , thank you for your sharing generous personality , ❤ 😊
Truly an informative video, explained with such efficient manner and authority. Thank you!!
EXACTLY! Thank you for making this video. People keep asking me about this, and now I can just direct them to your video.
Absolutely fascinating! What's curious is that Milstein, Elman, Heifetz kept their right arm down and their elbows very close to their torsos. Could this have been the result of their lessons with Auer?
Great. Thanks
Hola saludos desde México no hablo inglés pero me gustan tus análisis sobre las tecnica. Gracias
Very good video and very useful to me, thanks. I very much enjoyed the title "Яussian" which obviously translates to sound like "Yah-ussian." Gave me a chuckle. Much appreciated
Great video. That's really interesting. My professor taught me Franco - Belgian but also that you can take the fingers off gradually on the down bow.. which Iv'e now discovered is more Russian...how interesting.
It is being said (rumored) that, Russian Bow Hold (RBH) was introduced to Auer by Mischa Elman, and Auer was quick to adapt it.
About Russian Bow Hold, it is largely misjudged (due to the pronation of the hand/palm) of bow being held between the middle joint and the base joint of index finger. But in fact most of the time the bow was held between the nail joint and the middle joint (of index finger). First three fingers were held together (Milstein had held the fingers too closely/tightly which looked like a rigid wrist). In Maia Bang's violin book (which advocated Leopold Auer method of teaching, as she was assistant with Auer), it is more clearly stated that bow should lie in slanting position between 'the first and second joint (that is the nail and middle joint) of the index finger' and between 'the end and the first joint of the little finger'.
Heifetz went a bit further (beyond the middle joint of index finger) for creating harmonics or very soft (ppp pianizinizimo) sounds. Even Elman has brought the bow till the middle joint, but since he slanted his bow very much, it looked like the bow hold went beyond the middle joint.
Thank you so much for making this video! Excellent presentation and explanation. Amazing how much of the history of violin pedagogy goes back to Hungary - thinking of Auer and Joachim...
I was taught the "Auer" bow grip, then when I got to the university, they tried to make me change. I absolutely could not change, but I could do all of the advanced bowing techniques except down-bow staccato. So my teacher finally gave up changing it.
Later, when I switched to viola, my bow grip changed almost overnight to Franco-Belgian. I can't explain why.
Thank you for making this video and sharing this information. You answered everything I wanted to know. Thank you Thank you!
Sincerely, a string teacher
I studied w Raphael Bronstein, a student of Auer. Thank you for the clarification. I have a hybrid of the Auer and Franco-Belgium
Excellent commentary as always.
Fascinating, great video and thank you for posting.
Thanks, this was really helpful for me. My teachers (great teachers, professionals indeed) they didn't explained me this. This was a nice cultural/history lesson. Subscribed 👍🏻🤍
Thank you for this explanation.
Thank for this informative video .
According to Zimbalist who saw Heifetz play before he started studying with Auer Heifetzs technique was already fully formed and Auer only helped him with interpretation . Heifetz first taught by his father in Odessa where he had already caused a sensation......perhaps the old Russian bow hold was used alongside other bow holds back then (the classical world of violin technique could not have been totally defined by national borders)
I think it may have been Carl Flesch who coined the term Russian, Franco Belgian and German (Joachim) bow holds .
.......
Thank you master🙏🙏🙏
I like your red dress very Russian it suits you. Excellent analysis .Bravo Julia .
I live in Italy, and I often see Italian violinists, mainly from the older generation, that use a sort of Russian bow hold but they have nothing to do with Russia or Hungary. What I think is that in the past, with a greater personalization of violin technique than today, there was a greater variety of bow holds in every country. So defining them with a nationality term is, in my opinion, uncorrect.
And we can't forget that the term "Franco-Belgian school" (founded by the Italian Viotti) is sometimes used to indicate all the West Europe school, that was the predominant one before the rise of Russia.
In fact, most of the so-called 'modern Russian school' - after or along with the Auer's - has been based on Franco-Belgian principles. Konstantin Mostras, for instance, the main teacher of Ivan Galamian, was an exponent of Fr-Belgian school, too.
Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :))
Great explanation.
Considering that there are so many factors regarding tone production. Do you think that the bow hold of Auer's pupils its a crucial factor of the particularities of their sound?
Great video by the way!!
Really true ! Great video !
Why is Franco Belgium so popular? I like the Heifitz bow hold.
Потому что, Франко бельгийская более гибкая и в прямом и в переносном смысле. Мне тоже нравится "Русская" постановка у учеников Ауэра, но это совсем другая концепция, такому сейчас не учат. Обычно пытаются совместить русскую постановку пальцев с Франко бельгийской техникой остальной руки. Заканчивается походом к физиотерапевту.
Мой профессор в конс. держал так, глубоко. Играл прекрасно..и звук, стаккато вверх и вниз в бешенном темпе- все было. Он считал, что это дело индивидуальное и не нужно бояться пробовать разное удержание смычка. К сожалению советская школа часто опиралась на догмы.
yeah me too, but my teacher does not allow me to use the Heifetz bow hold
@@OttoKuus My teacher was straight from a student of Auer, the "french" grip was never even an option. It feels pretty much tarded hand when you try doing it after learning the Russian (Hungarian) all your life.
I was taught the Russian bow hold in Russia and my teacher used that hold when playing violin
Fair point. And you can add that few of the most famous exponents were Russian - rather they were Ukrainian and Lithuanian.
It could also be called the Carl Flesch hold as he promoted it in his "Art of Violin Playing". So far as I can determine, it was Flesch who came up with confusing name "Russian" for the hold.
If you were hoping for insights into the actual technique, there's a dearth of good information on CZcams. Here's an insightful discussion of the pros and cons from the perspective of a Jazz specialist:
czcams.com/video/AEKbVVZjMm0/video.html
Unfortunately he uses an extreme version, with the bow held in the knuckle joint. From my study of the tradition, none of the great exponents did this - the first finger contact was at or just above the middle joint.
When I saw this bow hold, I was very sceptical, but I tried it, and I kinda liked it. The sound is much stronger. My fingers/wrist tend to be very loose anyway, so I found it firms things up. I also noticed that it's impossible to play right at the heel, since the fingers touch the bow hairs/strings; and also the thumb pokes slightly thru the gap between stick and hairs.
Would you say there are any caveats when using this hold?
This looks like the bow hold I was taught in the 1980s in England when I was young. I can’t seem to change my bow hold now!
You do not need to, after playing this long!
Auer was actually quite liberal in his observations of bow holds (he writes in great details of how every violinist held it differently) and apparently felt a Franco Belgian bow hold was better suited for taller people while the Russian suited shorter people with short arms (like Elman) who'd have trouble near the tip. There are pictures of Heifetz as a 6-7 year old kid holding it that way so it's probably something intrinsic and not completely something that was taught - or maybe everyone held it that way and the children just picked it up. Wieniawski seems to have popularized it as it was needed for his stiff armed blazingly fast staccatto.
The Russian gives an intense penetrating sound and has advantages in the upper 2/3rds of the bow (but there's too much pressure to play at the frog, you have to kind of lift the bow a bit by raising the wrist up to relieve the pressure). And pronating the wrist that much can lock it up. It also forces you to raise the elbow and the shoulder on the lower strings and if you have a long arm, over time, this could lead to shoulder impingement issues (it's what caused Heifetz to stop playing).
The Franco Belgian leaves the wrist and fingers more flexible and gives a fatter tone. It excels at the frog and helps make super smooth chords with its light action. But in the upper half of the bow, the Russian really lets you lean on the stick. You can see that in the way all the old school violinists played more in the upper 2/3rd of the bow while today's violinists play more at the frog.
Thank you for your very detailed and knowledgeable comment. Yes, the shorter-armed people may be better suited for the Old-Russian hold, although a very tall Leonidas Kavakos plays with it, too - and he does it in a drastically different way from Heifetz. So let's hope that he would not acquire any impingements in the shoulder. Leopold Auer did not use to teach any hand set up to his outstanding students back in Russia, all of whom came to him when they were already accomplished young performers.
I went to St. Petersburg in 2000 on a romance ... She put a Russian bow hold on me. ... I wonder if there may be a slight advantage in this style in helping to keep the bow parallel to the bridge. Perhaps it can be employed as a bowing technique for certain pieces ?
:)
Hungarian bow hold it is...
Thank you for your information. I had no clue what bow hold it was but self teaching and with my tiny hands, the hungarian bow hold feels more comfortable to me.. I'm 4'10". 😅
What does it mean Polish, Hungarian and Jewish school or Bow Hold of violin ("wiolinistyka")?
Excellent video. However on seeing your examples of famous people I have to ask. How on earth do they play with right elbow down? How do they get to the G string?
It is a good question! Isn't it amazing how some people adjust?..
They cock the wrist up like some kind of stork. It looks super awkward.
good day miss bushkova ? do u do online classes if so im new and wish to learn to play the violin the correct way i like how u teach so if u do lert me know.thank you and have a great day
Hello, I do occasional lesson-consultations when my time allows. For online lesson, I have several recommendations I'd be happy to share. Contact me via my website
Does this work for the cello?
Точно,у нас никто так не играет,у всех советская школа,все удобно
Well, we do not use it in Hungary. I saw some guys, but mostly not.
The Russian bow hold feels more clumsy and puts more weight on the string. The other hold is lighter and the manipulation feels more dexterous; and less weight on the string?
The "Old Russian," or the "Auer," bow hold has its advantages for those who use it well. Heifetz was a pretty good fiddler, and so is Kavakos.
I really don’t see why it matters! Like really he probably called it the Russian bow hold because he developed it in Russia 🇷🇺 and he also most likely called it the Russian bow hold out of respect for the Russian people so I don’t see why this Russian women is insulted by the name ???? The Russian bow hold is a fine technique and I like to use it a lot it works for me and my music does not suffer because of the technique , actually the Russian bow hold helped me greatly it is a fair better technique for learning when your first starting to learn because it’s so simple and effective but once I learned how to play I switch to different techniques and I greatly improved again and again because of the Russian bow hold , so I think you should give it more credit it’s a very nice bow technique!!!
I never said it was a bad technique. And why would I be "insulted"?
My video was about something completely different. I am sorry that my point flew by without being understood. Good luck with your violin explorations
What about the "bow hold" from the famous teacher, the late Professor Yuri Yankelavic who produced many famous Soviet violinist who won prizes at International competition.
I teach pretty much the Yankelevich bow hold - watch my bow-hand basics and on. (We all played with similar bow hands our there in the Soviet Union:)
when i watch videos of me playing i hold the bow like that. it just seems to happen naturally even though i learned from various violinists and fiddle players that use other bow holds. i try tto adjust it but always goes back to this hold.
Then you should just play with that hold! You may be one of those people whose hand likes it too much. After all, Heifetz wasn't a bad fiddler;)
Franco Belgium bow hold with finger stroke is way better, like Oistrach as example.
And then there’s the Old Czech Bow Hold. Drives my teacher crazy🤣🎻
Older times there weren't shoulder rests.
That's why bow hold must be different.
Because without shoulder rest, violin rests toward more left side.
In my observation somehow Heifetz hold his bow the most unique his own way.
It is not exactly why, no... If you look at Milstein, his violin was not at all more to the left side - and he played without a shoulder rest.
@@ViolinClassUSA I see.
I believe Wieniawski laid the groundwork for the bowhold that Auer adopted and taught
She doesn't show the so called "russian" bow hold as it should be. I learned it from Sidney Harth. What she shows is not the propper Auer bow grip.
Is that the ia-ssian bow hold?
She puts the middle finger in the wrong place when she intendes to show Auer's bow grip! She has no idea how Auer's grip and technique works!
😘
Больше показывайте ,мы , русские всё поймём ,наверно вы наш язык забыли ,что все на английском ....
Хаха - Нет, русский пока не забыла, но русскоговорящих на моем канале 0.03%. Так что делаю на английском, как на наиболее распространённом языке.
@@ViolinClassUSAнас больше :)
Damn so clever, using Я instead of R: "YAH-ussian bow hold"
Hungarian! Yes!
100%. Постоянно слышу эту глупость от американцев. Спасибо за видео.