The Mysteries of Lorkhan, the Missing God | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #58
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2021
- WELCOME to the Elder Scrolls Podcast with FudgeMuppet. In this episode, Scott, Michael & Drew talk all about Lorkhan, the Missing Divine.
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I remember my first time after a long break from Fudgemuppet, I came back and there was a whole playlist of these podcasts, didn’t have to wait for every Sunday to roll around. I had hours of video to watch. Sadly now I’m all caught up and have to play the waiting game like everyone else. Love these.
Kinda like the last page of a book or the season finale right?
@@faeiger9215 exactly!
i’m in the exact situation
Haha! I look forward to every Sunday when I can mow my yard, drink my beer, and listen to my fudgemuppet!
Story of my life 😭
“But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, ‘this heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other’.” This is the kind of lore I love the most in the elder scrolls. The heart of a dead God laughing at those who killed it’s body. The grey march and Jyggalag’s curse. The transformation of Trinimac into Malacath. When the lore gets weird, it also gets better!
I just wish we got more Lore on the Night of Tears and the Snow Elves in general.
The Dwemer are cool because we know a decent amount of them but much else is a mystery, whereas with the Snow Elves, we barely know anything but their downfall.
Nothing on their culture or practices or traditions, nothing.
The Titanic and Ariel the Little Mermaid? Whaat!?? Lol jk
@@thalmoragent9344 It would make sense though how little is known about the Falmer by the Third and Fourth Eras because of how long ago they were all destroyed. The Nords likely didn't even leave their structures standing unlike how the Cyrodilic Nedes left some Ayleid ruins around.
@@Priceluked
True, the Nords didn't want anything Elven in their precious "true homeland", so now it's all gone... Gelebor's truly a monument of their once great civilization, I just hope the Stormcloaks don't stumble upon or find the Vale, otherwise they may recognize it as Elven and vow to desecrate it.
The Nords wiped the Falmer and their memory from the face of Nirn, to the point where the Falmer are considered a myth by most of Tamriel, save for a few who have transcribed those few Falmer texts, and even then, "Fall of the Snow Prince" is the closest confirmation many have that they ever existed.
And the Songs of the Returned never called them Falmer or Snow Elves, they just say Elves when mentioning them
@@thalmoragent9344 Such was their fate, the sons of Shor made way for their home upon the broken bodies of Auriel's children. Their never could be peace between Lorkhan and Auriel nor their mortals.
What has always made me laugh about the Thalmor's plan is that regardless of what the Elves do, they're just gunna be right back in the same position as soon as a new Kalpa starts.
There won't be a calpa if they break the flying saucer which is mundus
@@p.samedi2473 Unless if breaking it is what facilitates its recreation. Reality can't "start again" if it doesn't end first.
It would be Lorkhan's ultimate trick.
@@Im-Not-a-Dog to be fair the end ans rebirth of the world is the work of Auriel and Alduin so it's very possible it will end once they are free
This is also dependent on the idea they want or even know what dismantling the Towers would even lead too, they may just yet have another idea
@@thalmoragent9344 idk if Meridia said this in ESO, but the last time all the Towers deactivated, Nirn was "destabilized"
Dudes i just started listening to these podcasts while i play skyrim and its absolute bliss
Lorkhan is my favourite subject in Elder Scrolls. Once you start falling down this rabbit hole it’s really hard to stop your mind from wandering.
Totally. Lorkh is everything 🤜🤛
Maybe the Dragonborn was the Aspect of Lorkhan…When you defeat Alduin the cycle never ends, which is why Skyrim will always be the latest Elder Scrolls game……
Shezzarine
It also explains why your character can naturally Shout without any training. Because once upon a time, Lorkhan stole a fragment of Akatosh’s power. He imbues his aspect’s soul with the power of the Dragon God and now he can Shout and absorb the souls of dragons, which ultimately leads to Alduins defeat.
I wouldn’t be surprised if every character you play as in all of the Elder Scrolls is an aspect of Lorkhan. It explains your mysterious powers that are far beyond those around you, your diversity of powers (Lorkhan stoke powers from all the gods, allowing his aspects to bring out all kinds of strengths), it explains how you get involved in all the most relevant drama of the time, and it even explains why all the gods (Aedra and Daedra) seem to cross your path often on a more personal level than is normal.
I don’t think there’s any proof of this but I’ve believed it for awhile now. Your character has the ability to be anything and do anything, and regardless of how you look at Daedra or how your playthroughs went you can’t deny that they seem oddly chummy with The Dragonborn. Almost like some part of them can’t help but to speak to you as they would a fellow Daedra.
@@gavinerickson9392 Shezarrine not "Shezzarine".
Skyrim is a manifested Ouroboros lol
I disagree. You didn't end the cycle, you allowed it to continue. The only reason why the Dragonborn was created in the first place was, that Alduin didn't end the Kalpa, but decided to dominate the current one.
Lorkhan is easily my favorite character in the elder scrolls lore, even if he's not a character in a more traditional sense. He sacrificed himself to make Mundus. He surrendered his life for others to begin. He's awesome.
You make it seem he didn't have a lot of help. He couldn't have done it alone, especially given he actually had to lie to some of the gods, and had the support of the others.
He didn't sacrifice much initially, not till Trinimac beat him down, since the removal of the heart weakened him greatly.
Other Aedra also sacrificed their power, and Magnus was the Architect of the place, so he was vital as well 😅
Lorkhan didn't "surrender" his life, he got his heart taken from him forcefully
@@thalmoragent9344 perhaps, although you could argue that being killed was part of his plan since he laughed when his heart was torn out and since he now has the chance to gather his strength in the afterlife for the new dawn era. Also by dying he created the amulet of kings which helped found a strong empire of men.
@@numitor9119
He may have laughed because he knew the damage and deception had already been done, and since Nirn is his realm, he's laughing at the fact that the others think that his heart can be destroyed.
Plus, technically the Aylieds had possession of that Red Gem since it fell into an Aylied Well, so I guess it didn't help humans till fashioned into an Amulet for them specifically, although you still have a point there.
@@thalmoragent9344 I always interpreted his laughter as him laughing at the other gods for falling for his trap and doing exactly what he had expected of them and by doing so putting him into this unique position to one day return stronger than them and reclaim his heart. I think you can sort of see evidence of this in the battle of red mountain when told from the perspective of the nords where shor returns and attacks the mountain with them.
@@numitor9119
True, I also get the vibe that, given he's sorta like a Daedric Prince in a way, he wouldn't be sacrificing much of his power anyways, and the main reason he even lost much of it and acts sorta like like Aedra in terms of less interaction than Daedra, is because of loosing his heart.
Having his Divine Spark split out took his power, not any sacrificing of power like the others, and since he's still the Prince of the Realm, the heart can't truly be destroyed, at least not without also destroying Nirn.
So really, while the other gods sacrificed that power, he didn't, but it was sundered nonetheless due to Trinimac. I'm sure if he lived, he'd be like any other Daedric Prince, although I don't know if the Mer would be able to stick around given he'd be actively trying to destroy them.
I love these podcast ive been burned out from playing Skyrim for a year now but i love the lore and other peoples perspectives it helps keep me excited for tes6
Try Morrowind! Super easy to fall in love with the lore.
I've burned out of playing all es games but I agree with u , the lore is so interesting and fun
Yeah its been waaaay too long since the last real Elder Scrolls. Its unfortunate that my first ES was Skyrim. While I've gone back to play Morrowind, I do genuinely enjoy it (playing on android makes it worth it). I feel I'd have appreciated it that much more, had I been there to play it when it first released. Same with Oblivion, even though I haven't played that yet.
@@lazilycatharticone4191 i got skyrim a few weeks after release and i have atleast 5000 hours and its such a replayable game but theres a point when its hard to play
@@aarons4327 I've had entire characters fill up the file limit and wiped them to start over (on console anyways). Skyrim's a great game, its just been so long since its release that I'm tired of the birthplace of man. I want to see new lands in a more personal way, that can only be achieved through a single player Elder Scrolls.
I like how from left to right, their hairstyles make sense as a gradual transition. Scott’s is longer parted in the middle, Drew’s is little shorter and parted on the side, and Michaels is short with no part. I don’t know why but it makes sense to me. I am sure their is lore to explain it.
They're a Tribunal, and so perhaps it's just how they function. 3 different aspects of the same God or something 😅
ALMSIVI
You guys discussing how Lorkhan might be doomed to fail each cycle reminds me of when Tsun calls you doom driven. Wink to the dragonborn being a shezzarine, aspect of the doom drum -Lorkan aka Shezarr?
What if his death and the removal of his heart was part of Lorkhan's plan? The last step in his transcendence.
Think about it, if the Elves truly won the Elnofey war, then why do humans and their gods exist? Would they not have killed them after capturing Lorkhan?
Lorkhan won, humans persisted and the elves are still fighting against his work.
I agree
How can they kill a God? What a grand and intoxicating innocence.
And since the Nords have Sovngarde which is the hall of Lorkhan, his plans are obviously not entirely finished
@@striker8961 Nirn is the realm of Lorkhan, he is represented by Nirn in the Imperial Pantheon.
@@Super50ldier I don't know what you mean by he's represented by Nirn in the Imperial pantheon. He's Shezarr in their pantheon, and Shezarr is the god of all human undertaking, but I don't quite see what you mean.
Lorkhan didn't have an impact on the world. His impact is the world. It is an echo of Lorkhan, a construct of Lorkhan.
Theory: The end times that the Nords think of when they imagine Alduins return is actually the final battle that the warriors of sovngarde partake in against Auriel and the elves at the start of a new kalpa, with auriel being associated with Akatosh and from him Alduin, along with the idea that the end of a kalpa (the end times brought about by Alduin) is also the begining of the next. But idk just came to mind listening to this.
The Warriors of Sovngarde fight against Alduin and the Elves.
My favorite part of all the elder scrolls is lorkhan and his heart, and it made my day to see not only a video about it, but a fudgemupet podcast about lorkhan. Made my day guys, thank you very much
For the longest time I had a very Anuic attitude, totally on the side of the Elves, felt thalmor were in the right, etc. I then experienced a large medical emergency and while recovering I came to start thinking padomic and feeling the thalmor are wrong to deny others the right to exist.
I’m extremely pleased, Michael tweeted what would be interesting for a podcast, I don’t know if he saw I wanted one on Lorkhan, but here’s the video anyway so, pretty happy!
But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." So Auriel fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea, where no aspect of the new world may ever find it.
*Based Auriel and Trinimac*
Dwemer : hold our cogs
@Sanguine Was it destroyed, though? The Mundus continues to exist, which contraindicates the apparent destruction of the heart. Yes, it appeared to be destroyed, but appearances deceive. When has anything ever been that decisive and clear-cut, within the world of the Elder Scrolls, especially in the midst of a dragon break?
Yes, it was found; Auriel was wrong about that, as is Auriel's way. However, while the Heart did suffer yet another setback, it was not destroyed; Lorkhan was right about that part.
@@thalmoragent9344
Boethiah: based on what?
@@JohnDoe-nq4du
Lol, Auriel isn't wrong about everything, and let's be real, the Dwemer meeting and tampering with it isn't something many God's would be accounting for, even Lorkhan evidently
Maybe a podcast with the devs from skyblivion ? Would be a cool episode
fudgeuppet you absolute legends, sitting here at 12 am and can’t get to sleep - open feed and you literally just uploaded.
Keep it up ya legends
- Scotty from Prank Patrol
I only found this podcast about a month ago, and I was already rewatching old ones after finishing them all. So happy to have more content, this has become my new special interest tbh. You guys are funny, informative, intelligent, and creative and I love learning more about TES and listening to y'all riff. Especially atm when I'm waiting for a medication refill and pretty down, much appreciated and I hope your podcast lives on like the heart of Lorkhan
They have some great videos aside from the podcasts. I have learned so much about Elder Scrolls lore from here!
I think the world could exist with a living lorkhan. Because it clearly existed before he died
Finally a podcast about my favourite god :)
I don't know how interested you guys are in in-depth real-world comparisons to the Elder Scrolls, but I would love to see you guys team up with some anthropologists/archaeologists to discuss the real-world ancient cults/religions/myths that could have combined to inspire Elder Scrolls gods and lore! Just off the top of my head, the dangerous and constantly hungry world serpent reminds me of Cipactli, from many ancient Central American cultures.
@Sanguine Oh yeah, the Psijic Endeavor is very much derived from Jungian Psychology. There is also some Buddhism and Hinduism with the concept of Kalpas, "The Wheel", and CHIM. Anu and Padomay seem like they are inspired by African folk religions to me as well, as it is very similar in tone to the origin of the world in their mythology. There is quite a bit of Greek and Nordic/Germanic inspiration in the Et'ada regarding their roles and attitudes.
The biggest influence that I can tell, though, is Gnostic Judaism (Gnosticism), as many of the concepts (the Godhead, sub-gradients, over-souls, and even Daedra) are almost carbon copies of these theological ideas.
I see it sort of as weird kind of Buddhism. Reaching Nirvana, achieving enlightenment only appeals because you’re escaping into heaven. If you escaped the wheel and became nothing, or fade into a collective consciousness and this became not your own individual entity, no one would want to do that.
To speculate on some Lorkhan lore: I think you could look at the ideology of the Mythic Dawn as connected to the Ayleids in a huge way, not just Mankar Camaron himself as an Ayleid, which would make Lorkhan fit into the picture in a very interesting way. I would go so far as to say I think it's plausible that the Mythic Dawn is an heresy directly descended from or influenced by Ayleid religion, perhaps diverging in key ways but framed against that backdrop in the same way that the Judeo-Christian backdrop is important in understand Mormonism even if it is its own thing.
You can view the Mysterium Xarxes and the Mythic Dawn Commentaries as having simultaneously a literal role in describing how to get to Paradise and a metaphorical guide to CHIM. In the Mysterium Xarxes you can see the 8 lines in a circle, like the 8 towers holding up the wheel (and the letters of Oblivion are literally between them, like the realms of Oblivion between the spokes), and then the triangle is the secret tower Vivec mentions, which has "Mythic Dawn" in it I think because to achieve CHIM, to declare "I exist", then one becomes "mythic" in a sense. In "I" lies the Paradise, the Mythic Dawn, the key to the universe.
With regards to the commentaries, the 4 keys relate to Aedra and Daedra much like the Ayleids blend Aedra and Daedra worship, as well as the 4 elements (Weykland Stone in particular would be light for example). Lorkhan as Daedra and Nirn as an Oblivion realm is actually a pretty interesting when viewed as a development on this sort of intermingling of Aedra and Daedra in Ayleid culture. I'm a bit of a sucker for the Mythic Dawn tbh, I love cults in video games and digging into their views and I find the Mythic Dawn's particularly compelling for whatever reason.
Oh, and connected to IRL religion, you can connect the triangle and the circle with Goetic Magick, where the daemon is invoked into a triangle with the practitioner in a magick circle, although the writing here would be in Hebrew and not Daedric and with different relevant writing, but the idea of this mortal universe which the magician is in and the otherworldly invoked in the triangle does sort of jive with being transported to Paradise through the triangle in game. If one wanted to explore these ideas based on modern religous practices, demonolatry is highly elemental as is and you could easily put an Obsidian mirror or crysyal ball in the triangle and invoke the Ayleid elements while meditating on Paradise (as a realm of challenge where one must face them, like the creatures found their in game, to reach towards an enlightenment beyond the mortal realm) by gazing into the triangle. A good primer to explore those ideas would be "Goetic Demonolatry" by S. Connolly. If anyone reading happens to be like me and is cool with experimenting with religious practices related to fictional religious because magick is like theater for the self (to paraphrase Lon Milo Duquette) anyways, then I'd encourage ya to give it a go and lemme know if it resonates with ya at all.
Magic isn't real though.
At least from a religious or platonic pov which I get the impression of in this topic, the elves would like to live in perfect forms. to escape the cave and see the light. not mortal pleasures of drink and flesh, but of totality, the perfect form of justice, of ultimate truth, of complete contentment beyond what any dyonisian lesser pleasures can provide. the sort of thing that compels monks to go into the wilderness and abscond from worldly affairs to something more ineffable and all consuming.
an existence where you constantly experience the sublime. its not unknown to the mortal experience, we get glimpses of it whenever they have the compulsion towards something greater, an existential experience, or essential good or rightness. Its not forgetting the moment, its being totally in this moment and every moment before and after.
to the elves, Lorkhan is a demiurgic creature. a limiter rather than a giver. someone who chained them into a poor foggy reflection of a greater existence. someone who took away the colors of the rainbow and only left them red and green. everything bad or petty in the world is his direct doing.
(not that this is necessarily right, just the sort of pov) And I think in a lot of the more theological takes of lorkhan from different cultures, I think thinking of him like the demiurge is a good base. many who have a more optimistic view of nirn (in a cosmological sense) again, see him as a “framemaker” or a promethian being, giving challenges and substance for people to overcome and use. while standard high elven belief is similar to gnosticism or a Zoroastrianism with him being a concealer or corruptor, an Eden’s snake or maker of imperfections from a more perfect whole. and this actually gives some insight into him as a “god of crop failure”. its like saying, “this is the world he created. the imperfection that is this world, the hunger and whim is of him”. You can take it as simple, but it is also a profound statement of the imperfect nature of Lorkhans world in a very intimate way to the common person.
anuic is more demiurgic understanding, and padomic is more promethian. And there are some that have elements of both.
I never made the connection between Elven beliefs and Gnosticism until just now. Damn that’s good.
Always down for a mind tickling conversation in the morning about lorkhan. Slainte
I think Lorkhan is likely the true patron of all mortals and perhaps intended for mortals to ascend beyond the gods that created them as thought by the likes of the Velothi.
I really appreciate the deep discussions here. Thanks for another stellar podcast Fudgmupperines.
According to to Umaril, his father was the head god of the last Kalpa, but did not name him as Akatosh. This can be seen as confirmation that the gods have different roles in each Kalpa. Lorkhan might be the Aedric god of man in this Kalpa, but could end up as the Daedric Prince of Necromancy in the next.
Maybe Mankar Camoran was just completely insane.
I love Drew’s insight on High Rock being similar to the US
Thanks guys. Y'all are helping me fight depression.
>Walk into discussion on the elder scrolls
>"The elves are right about Lorkhan,but Lorkhan did the right thing"
>Refuses to elaborate
>Buy Skyrim again
This is why I am interested in an Elder Scrolls game in the Somerset Isles, even though it would be really damn hard to make, especially exploring both the Aldemeri Pantheon and its connection to Lorkhan and creation.
I was waiting for this episode for a while now, When I read the book in Weynon Priory that’s talks about Akatosh giving Alessia the Amulet of kings from his own heart, but also that the lore that the Amulet is a drop from The ❤️ of Lorkhan. I’ve been fascinated by the topic.
I've been waiting for a Lorkhan podcast and here it is now! Yes!
I've always taken Boethiahs connection to Lorkhan as minor evidence of the idea that they were born/crystallized out of the betrayal of Lorkhan as his black blood poured from the wound. It would have covered Trinimac, corrupting him, and with the prince of plots being the snake mount, it could be thought of as the blood itself becoming Boethiah given form, writhing over the form of Trinimac and consuming his shame. Trinimac, an integral part of that first betrayal, and an et'ada, would have maintained what was left of his divine spark, but forever changed and expanded by his recombination with the blood of Mundus and the spirit of scorn. Boethiah, for their part, after consuming the Meric parts of Trinimac, would immediately precede to disperse themselves throughout elven stock and cultures, conveniently ensuring Lorkhans influence over them, even if not directly. After all, betrayal and scorn g hand in hand. Its almost as if Boethiah and Malacath are the twin shadows of the moment that Trinimac reached his more-than-hands into Lorkhan and pulled out the heart of the world. Malacath, the outer shadow, keeping his distance from the Darkness of Padomay but using its tools, and Boethiah, the inner shadow, embracing the darkness of the event, but still separate from it.
The intro video was amusing.
Never forget to load in your CHIM, everyone. 👍
I´ve been hoping that you would do an episode on Lorkhan. So hyped!
I think it would be cool if in es6 you could help a daedric prince create there own plane of Oblivion
plz never stop making these contents💚
I was so excited for this podcast! 😁 i love lorkhan and all the stuff he encompasses. I'm also very interested in the ties that some of the god's spheres have with him. Like boethia being a fan of him, and how many daedric princes have a strong tie with mortality which he created ,... (Future podcast idea perhaps? 👀)
When talking about heart substitutions, why not address Neloth's substitution of a heartstone for a human heart in his apprentice? This would seem to be an attempt to move up the spirituality ladder, too.
But the inevitable result of moving up the spirituality ladder is madness. Briarhearts. Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia, Dagoth Ur. Neloth's apprentice. Pelinal. Even Alessia. The Daedra Lords are *all* insane. Their realms are in a state of inattention, decay or outright madness. Even Mundus suffers from decay; the player character travels through a land dominated by ruins and chaotic, violent disunity. We don't know what happened to the Dwemer - did they achieve apotheosis? And embrace madness, like all of the others?
The Aedra's madness spills out into Mundus, too. Stendarr is supposed to be the god of mercy, but his Vigilants are merciless. Akatosh has a multiple personality disorder. And so on. They have all distanced themselves from Mundus, as if to spare mortals the worst of their insanities. There is still spill-over.
Mancor Cameron might be *too* sane. He sees the absurdity of Mundus and wants to unmake it, try over.
But Mundus is Dawn's Beauty - and there are indeed some gorgeous sights to see as the player moves through the land (being attacked by bandits or other crazed persons or creatures every five minutes). But this much violence isn't sustainable. The result is endless ruination, and a faltering empire whose roads look like dirt tracks.
Madness is *the* theme in Elder Scrolls, and the higher one travels on the spirituality ladder, the worse it becomes.
From your frame of reference, they seem mad.
@@videofudge I think the case can be made that they are *objectively* mad, on the grounds that they're all dysfunctional, to one degree or another.
Neither Mundus nor any of the Daedric realms sets a good example for how sentient beings should exist, cooperate, or build societies. Aetherius is harder to pin down - but take Sovngarde's presentation as an example of the place. The Nord heroes are forbidden to do *anything* about an existential threat because... why, again? Because it's not on their list of acceptable activities, which include getting drunk, carousing, and fighting each other, and nothing else. Say what?
They all look forward to the harrowing of Hircine's hunt. Which sounds like it supports the theory that Shor is collecting Nord heroes for another end-of-time/dawn-of-time war to decide who will dominate in the next kalpa. Who will rip whose heart out. Who will eat whom and excrete them out sullied and transformed.
Can you see my point? They're all *objectively* insane. Dysfunctional.
Spoken like a true Sheogorath cultist. Lol
@@Urgelt Why do we have to value existing, co-operating, or building societies though? Sure, most the aedra do, but for at least some of the daedra they couldn't care less about any of that I think and their goals may not be to do anything like that.
@@Jordan-zk2wd Clearly the daedra do not have any interest along those lines.
*They* don't have to value building functional societies. *I* value building functional societies. Where this isn't happening, I call dysfunction.
I think it's pretty likely that Daedra Lords don't care what I think. Oh, well. :P
2 things:
1 - Shor Son of Shor confirms that Lorkhan dies every kalpa, he talks to his dead "fathers" in the cave if Snow Throat who tell him the cycle will only repeat.
2 - The N in the List of Shezzarines stands for the New-Man
I have a condition that makes me constantly ill. Obviously that makes it hard on the day to day. I love watching these guys because for some reason I forget the sicky feeling and just enjoy the time I have with each vid. Also, it helps with my writing lol
So Lorkhan... "That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
And now I want some mint-berry crunch candy...
Michael's point about only having a mortal reference range for thinking about cosmological divinity is very powerful. I wonder how a thalmor could respond? It would make their philosophy/conflict a lot more interesting if it wasn't so easily belittled by this point about a mortal reference.
I'm not sure if thalmor would be very motivated to be part of one big consciousness with everyone else, given their superiority complex. The discussion about escaping the need to restart cycles and start again is interesting, but I think that idea stems from a mortal reference point in terms of thinking how they, as individual beings make life in a changeable world as opposed to whatever existence would be like for a spirit with no corporeal experience
Love this podcast! Can’t wait for the Redguard Episode!
What a great topic this Sunday
I think the biggest argument against the "Mundas is Lorkhan's realm of Oblivion" is the idea that the Aedra were stripped of power in the creation of it. None of the Daedric princes seem to really suffer for their realms, at least not to the level the Aedra did. And, considering it was a group effort, it should have been easier on the individual Aedra. Unless I'm missing something, there seems to have been something different and it's not just a "plane of oblivion". It's useful as an analogy but I feel it misses something.
I once spend like 30 mins info-dumping abt Shor/Lorkahn to my gf who doesn’t know about elder scrolls…. Some day I might even be able to explain in an understandable manner lol
Good luck with that! 😄. I hope she at least plays some video games so she might have a basis to start from, or maybe reads. Forgotten Realms & other series or books have worlds with gods integrated within them.
Anyone want to talk about the symbolic aspect of Lorkhan's missing heart? "Ripping out his heart and leaving behind a void" is kind of symbolic for the feelings of betrayal. He may have felt betrayed by the exarchs that both elves and men revere (i.e. Mara) who were also at the convention for his condemnation. That would give even more credence to the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, and it would make sense why elves call the Aedra "their ancestors" - because they followed the spirits that convened to bring down Lorkhan as opposed to those who didn't.
That combined with Boethiah, prince of plots and Betrayal clad in Lorkhans death shroud as she corrupted Trinimac into the prince of scorn, (also related to Lorkhans emotional position in the eyes of the others), who ripped Lorkhans heart out with "more than hands" which could include the emotional heart-rending. It was the first betrayal, allowing Boethiah to crystallize, a way for Lorkhans revenge to take place through all of time.
i absolutley love listening to these podcasts just doing everyday things cause it gives me something really cool to listen to
Yaaaaaaaasssssssss !!!! I ve been waiting for this all week long!!!!
Always enjoy listening to the Tribunal discussing the lore of there universe
Spectacular talk!!!
Does Boethiah have any special meaning/relation for the Redgaurds? Since Boethiah is often represented by a snake, she/he was referred to as "Hunger" by Sotha Sil in writing and the deadra known as the Hungers are mainly their servants. It relates to their version of Lorkhan a lot. Didn't realize until watching this episode how related Lorkhan and Boethiah are to each other and now I'm super interested in it
I'd love to see this fleshed out with a review of your discussion here plus more references from lore and feedback from this vid from the audience. Your channel is great. Thanks for the content 😎
Hopefully the next elder scrolls doesn't take another decade to release because I can't wait to hear you guys expand on more lore, I love these long podcasts!
I mentioned this on a previous video but I believe Auriel had his own domain of Oblivion. Lorkhan had one as well but something was happening to it (Atmora freezing in time). So he fled to Auriel's domain with his "dremora" aka humans. Auriel's "dremora" are the mer/elves. At first, Auriel saw Lorkhan's arrival as an invasion and attacked him and his creatures but eventually a treaty was formed and they existed separate but in peace.
Lorkhan showed Auriel and his 7 generals (the eight divine) how to make creatures with free will. This new world was so beautiful to them that they didn't realize it was literally destroying them to make it. Once they realized they were losing power, they attempted to kill Lorkhan for "tricking" them into dissolving their power and turning their children into mortals (mortality of elves starts here). They were unable to fully kill Lorkhan without shattering their own realm so they instead resigned their fate and dissolved into Mundus.
This would explain why the elves treat humans as invaders on such a deep level and why humans would resent these high and mighty sounding oppressive elves for acting like they own the place, when in reality Mundus was made from both the 8 divine and Lorkhan and therefore both races have a claim to the land.
According to the Nords, Alduin aka Auri-El and Orkey aka Trinimac conspired against Shor aka Lorkhan. Kyne aka Kynareth, Jhunal aka Julianos, Stuhn aka Stendarr and Tsun aka Zenithar sided with Shor. Shor created the Atmorans, the first humans and Alduin created the Aldmer, the first elves. The armies of Shor and Alduin fought for Atmora with Alduin's forces retreating south and Shor's armies chasing them. Orkey kills Tsun and then he kills Shor and ripped his heart out on the field of battle then Alduin hid the heart so the humans would never have their god back.
Always got confused about Lorkhan also these are awesome!!! Been enjoying them a lot😂
Why does Lorkhan HAVE to die? Was that his plan when he constructed Mundus? Suicide?
What was the world like when he was walking upon it then? When men fought elves?
@@23Raind 100% agree. They say it like the world couldn't exist if he didn't die.
A few things I think are commonly misunderstood in the creation of mundus / nirn, even by these...
1. Lorkhan had to die - nope.
2 The Aedra (main 9 & others) built Mundus and kind of weaved themselves into the fabric of it... In a physical and spiritual way (heart of Lorkhan, eye of Magnus etc). They are weaved throughout existence, and are equally weaved through aetherious too.
3. Magnus did not flee Mundus - it was the final stage of the build and was the plan all along. Seriously, imagine Nirn with zero light? Zero magic? Think Lorkan wanted complete separation of gods and their new creation? No. It was the plan all along.
@@23Raind He's not in Sovngarde, he's in Mundus through his reincarnations, the Shezarrines.
That NGE reference to human goo shook me 🤣
We pledge ourselves to you, the Frame-Maker, the Scarab.
A world for us to love you in, a cloak of dirt to cherish.
this was a really great listen!
An interesting video y’all could make is the real world orogin for the Elves. Shor fits with the Gnostic view of the Demiurge, an evil ceslestial being who created the World of Flesh,
@fredreich groypson yeah, but I am a TRUE Nord, so I only refer to him as Shor
@fredreich groypson yeah… i know, i said make a video about the irl origins of the Elves, as gnostics
@@Theology.101 This is why many of these videos/podcasts have few comments. There is always the "Well, acktually" guy waiting in the wings to parse every word, critique your grammar & writing, and generally contribute nothing while misinterpreting what was written so they have a chance to "correct" someone.
Reminds me of a line from George Carlin. "Not every ejaculation deserves a name."
Okey time to watch this before bed. I just finished oblivion and was intrigued about the lorkhan's plan being tameriel
Great video guys. After watching this i’ve thought of a question you might be able to answer. In the Nord pantheon Auriel is known as Akatosh and Lorkhan is known as Shor. Akatosh’s first born being Alduin the world eater and if the theory is to be believed the last Dragonborn is an avatar of Shor, is Auriel/Akatosh trying to “finish off” Lorkhan/Shor once and for all by destroying mundas via Alduin with Lorkhan defending himself via the last Dragonborn?
I hope you're okay with a non-Muppet trying to answer this...
Well, in the nord pantheon there is no Akatosh: he's strictly Imperial, because in the nord pantheon, the dragon god is Alduin and the nords hope (though they know he will eventually) never wake up. Then Akatosh is also a blend of Auriel and Alduin, so it's a bit tricky... anyway, Alduin's role is to eat the current kalpa so the next one can start anew: Alduin is perpetuating Auriel's/Akatosh's plan of a repeating cycle. If the Last Dragonborn (if he's a Shezzarine) is meant to break that cycle by destroying Alduin, then that speaks for Shor/Lorkhan trying to break Auriel/Akatosh's hold on the world.
Then we get into real weird territory: if Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh, and a dragonborn has been given the soul and blood of a dragon, then is Akatosh hunting himself?
@@adde27 The lore of the gods is so confusing. I'mm going to have to re watch the video on the gods and refresh everything
@@bencoppin682 lol ye, it's both good and bad that the gods in elder scrolls are shaped by their believers I guess: we get really cool gods with multiple aspects... and then we get contradictions and pitfalls.
A Shezarrine is not an avatar of Shor, it is the reincarnation of Shezarr.
@@Super50ldier... Shezarr? You mean Shor? 🤦
And no, that's not what a Shezzarine is.
Hi I've become addicted to this podcast thank you
Teach of our Gods, Lords of Lore
Great talk.. more interesting than I thought 😆
Late comments but I remember reading a book in skyrim that says Aurel is alduin
I love listening to these podcasts while playing skyrim or oblivion
If you look at Captain Aresin's ears in ESO's Daggerfall he has pointed ears since you guys were talking about bretons losing their elvish features in skyrim
Awwww, myself, as an American, love the comparison to High Rock! I’ve never put those two together, but that’s good Monkey Truth now!!
I love to listen to your podcasts whilst playing skyrim
Bretons in Skyrim are Reachmen is my headcanon
Eh hem! It's Scott, Michael, and Daedra Daddy Drew! 😛 Love the topic, guys! Keep up the fantastic work.
Lorkhan, the original trickster god. Known as Shor to the Nords and Shezzar to the Imperials, is the patron god of mankind and and the true enemy of all mer.
Even the Dunmer want to escape, even if they don't hate Mortality as much as other Mer, Lorkhan is still an obstacle they gotta go around, so he's still an "issue" at the end of the day
@@thalmoragent9344 I guess when I say mer, I actually mean mostly the high elves and maybe the wood elves too. Orcs seems to thrive well on life so I can't say what their views on Lorkhan is.
@@SilverFang2789
Given Malacath is still opposed to Man in many of the Myths/Daedric backstory, they wouldn't like Lorkhan either. They worship Malacath who still is Trinimac at heart.
So while they may not hate mortality as much, they're not having an easy time either, and they wanna have fun in Oblivion with Malacath.
Worshipping Lorkhan as an Orc under Malacath wouldn't be ideal 😅
@@thalmoragent9344 fair enough. And I guess Trinimac is basically the Elven version of Shor anyway (sort of).
I imagine he would give exception to those who have been labeled as a pariah by the normal people of Tamriel, considering that he is in fact the chief deity of the spurned and ostracized. Which probably isn't many but still would be a small following.
@@SilverFang2789
True, although that's still a good question you brought up. But yeah, still, they'd be no friend of Lorkhan.
Elves in Tamriel: Lorkhan is dead
Lorkhan: LOL! Meet my Champion, the Dragonborn
The only god worth Worshipping
You make it seem he didn't have a lot of help. He couldn't have done it alone, especially given he actually had to lie to some of the gods, and had the support of the others.
@@thalmoragent9344Valid point, But I refuse to budge on Talos kinda Stealing Lorkhan's Throne, as much as I Like The races of Man Talos is a false god.
@@gamercore5216
Yeah, Talos.... I mean, I guess him taking Lorkhan's spot as a God to continue to Patron the races of Man is an interesting thing, but overall, given he's like, 3 different mortals and has been overglamorized and took a spot amongst the Aedric spirits is... well, let's just say that Talos is just Lorkhan 2.0, but a watered down version at this point.
I mean, the Thalmor have their reasons for hating him, given Tiber Septim was a douche, and even other humans say that Talos weakened the memory of Tiber Septim the man, and most certainly shouldn't be counted alongside the OG Aedra. A God, sure, but that's a touchy subject.
Best channel ever
Fuck yes I've been watching all the podcasts and love the fact y'all are still at them!!!! Onward lads!!!
This video is going to be dope.
When looking at all the religions including those from the various guilds, it seems like each kalpa there are new aedra and deadra. Sep, lorkhan, shezar they all keep coming back after devouring mundus. Its like they become reborn and some spirite get away but most dont and now we are in the present kelpa with aludin dead and many versions of similar gods exist. The deadric princes say there are many more of them out there which includes all Ada. So it seems like lorkahn is dying over and over while trying to achieve his goal, each cyle a new world eater is born and slayed.
Curious though, why is it that lorkahn and akatosh are connected? The amulet of kings is for tue dragonborn but made from lorkahns blood? Tiber sep-tum is an aspect of lorkahn but dragon blood is of akatosh?? Are these gods actually one in the same or was thwre a kalpa where the roles were reversed and the dragon break brought that versions to this kalpa?
47:28 I like the High Rock/U.S comparison, Drew
The way I see it, The Time Dragon (Aka or Akatosh) is the combination of Anu and Padomay, stabilized change. The fight between Lorkhan and Auriel is resolved and they come together to become the dragon. This is Dracochrysalis, Auriel and Lorkhan are dead as they were married to create Akatosh. The Merethic era was the pupa stage, and the first age was imago.
The world skins, I think, are the 12 worlds of creation, since Nirn is made from them. The 12 worlds were twelve spirits and like the other Et'ada, their bodies were their realms and held smaller spirits. All spirits are like snakes in that they change and leave behind their older iterations like husks, so these are older iterations of the Time Dragon. And the hunger of Sep is Namira, the darkness in the heart of Lorkhan.
This was great then Scott needed his opinions heard over everyone else's!!! Let Michael and Drew explain themselves first buddy!!!!
Bro it's a 70 minute podcast, relax 😂
@@TheRealMycanthrope I totally forgot about this. Definitely chilled out now 😆
I don’t think lorkhan has to die for mundus to exist. When he gets got by auri-el, he says that his heart can’t die “because one was made to satisfy the other.” This could mean that he made mundus for himself, or his heart was made to create mundus. However, it never states that lorkhan has to die for mundus to have its heart. Yes, mundus needs his heart, but his heart could probably power both. After all, it powered mundus, the Tribunal, all of the Dagoths, and also maybe the Numidium? Not sure about that last one. Like, a single drop of his blood created the amulet of kings, which kept the daedra out of mundus for thousands of years, so he probably would have been fine.
I don't know if you already have one, I may have already watched it & forgotten, but I love to see a breakdown on the Khajiiti pantheon, podcast style! 😻 Your recent video about Namira had Khajiiti references I have not heard before, but I don't have ESO.
Y'all explained the ouroboros pretty well in their!
I also think Mankar Camoran's commentary is the most solid and coherent. I don't agree with how he went about everything, or the Prince with which he aligned himself to achieve his goals, but I think his understanding of the Elder Scrolls cosmology is the best of all the ones currently available in-universe.
This is my lore theory; Magnus, after sundering Shor, tries and to an extent succeeds in usurping the divinity of Akatosh by assuming the name Auriel. I think Magnus did this because Akatosh and his dragons sided with Shor and continued to protect the humans and Mundus after Shor was defeated. Magnus had convinced the other aedra; even Kyne, Shor's wife and possibly Magnus' sister (Magnus/Auriel - Eagle and Kyne - Hawk), and Stuhn/Stendarr, Shor's shield-thane and Tsun's brother, to betray Shor but could not convince Akatosh, and to a lesser signifcance Tsun. Using the stolen power, possibly with the help of both the Eye and Staff of Magnus, Magnus/Auriel both escape Mundus, it may have been a failed attempt to destroy Mundus, and create the Sun. Bethesda's inclusion of Human (ancient Nordic and contemporary Reachmen) animal totems, the Snow Elves statue of Auriel in the DLC, the background behind the civil war, and actual dragons show and tell us that the mythology of the previous games was from a primarily elven perspective.
So you're saying Magnus and Auriel are the same person? Despite clearly being 2 different Et'Ada encompassing 2 separate Spheres?
One of Time, the other Magic? And technically, all of the Gods in the Dawn Era are essentially siblings, the Divines/Aedra of the Men/Mer/Beasts are all together in a batch, since they were made by Anui-El and Sithis
Plus, Akatosh isn't a God till the First Era, and it's only because he's a fusion of the Time God and Space God, Aka and Lorkhan. Auriel, as an aspect of the overarching Time God, Aka, predates Akatosh as a diety.
@@thalmoragent9344 Yes more or less. In essence Magnus created a dragon break and would be worshiped twice, once as Magnus and again as Auriel. Magnus and the elven version of Auriel share similar iconography. The most notable being the Sun and Eagle. Magnus as Auriel is worshiped as the progenitor of elves, not Akatosh father of the dragons and later savior of men. Akatosh would be mostly written out of the elven version of history and not be worshiped as widely, the actions of Akatosh are attributed to Magnus as Auriel, until the return of the Nords and the Dragon Cult. The humans that remained on Tamriel before the return were largely slaves and forced to worship eleven gods. The sibling stuff is just the best way I could describe the intimacy of their interelationships.
And besides in the lore reality is flexible and who better to flex reality than the architect of Mundus.
@@theULTIMATElife50
Yeah but then now you have Magnus being 2 Spheres, both Time and Magic, despite them having been separate beings.
Akatosh never was written out of Elven history, Akatosh wasn't there at convention, he was made long after Auriel existed as a Time God.
As I said, a simple way to see the Time God is that it's one God, Aka, interpreted differently, but nonetheless, Akatosh is a fusion of Aka (or Auriel) and Lorkhan, and Akatosh wasn't a God back when the Elves were largely enslaving humans. Auriel was what the humans worshipped till the Nedes made up Akatosh to be their replacement version of him.
I also don't see how the Sun and Eagle have anything to do with each other. I mean, does Kyne have anything to do with the Sun? Or Jephre?
It's an interesting Theory, I just (respectfully) feel it could use some work. Unless I'm missing something here, in which case, my apologies
Plus, Auriel was trapped in Mundus, Magnus escaped before the trap fully set in
@@thalmoragent9344 Like I said the lore both in universe and out is flexible, all the outcomes of Daggerfall are canon after all.
While not exactly one to one, both Trinimac and Sheogorath have second incarnations of the same being, in Sheogorath's case a seperate being. And both daedra and aedra can occupy multiple spheres and in some cases the share the same sphere and be different entities. I am also not saying Akatosh was completely erased from history just that his role was minimized; his role, power, and divinity stolen by Magnus. In game there are two different and separate cultures one being the ancient Nords, who worshiped in the Dragon Cult, and two being the Snow Elves, who worship Auriel, both converge on the same iconography to represent the same being. The difference being that the actions the Snow Elves attributed to Auriel, the Nords attribute to either Magnus or Akatosh. The Alessian Order in the first era also noticed this and attempted to dragon break Auriel from Akatosh or more pointedly, and likely unknowingly, Magnus from Auriel.
The events told in the lore state that Magnus left before Shor had his heart torn out by Auriel. These events occur in the Dawn or Merethic Era depending on the source and with the concept of time being flexible, to the point of breaking, the events could happened in reverse and still be true. Magnus could assume the mantle of Auriel and cause a dragon break or cause a dragon break and then assume the role of Auriel. In this way Magnus can leave Mundus before and after Shor had his heart torn out, as the Snow Elves believe Auriel left Mundus some time later.
The only other way the lore makes sense to me is if Akatosh is bipolar, which could also be true.
@@theULTIMATElife50
Firstly, it was Trinimac who tore Shor's heart out, not Auriel.
2, Magnus is an Elven God, when the Atmorans came to Skyrim, they had started up the Dragon Cult back home, and Magnus isn't in the Nordic Pantheon. Alduin is the Time Dragon in the Nordic Pantheon, and he says that he is Akatosh's first born, so not quite the same entity, albeit under the same aspect of time. All the Gods of Time are different aspects of the same God, and only due to Dragon Breaks are they now able to be distinguished from one another.
Akatosh never existed at Convention or at all in the Dawn or Merethic Era's, he's a construct of Aka and Lorkhan (Aka being the overarching Time God, so Auriel, Akatosh, Alkosh, Alduin, etc are all the same Time God but with different stories, which is why the Time God is considered to be "Mad", due to Dragon Breaks)
No one worshipped Akatosh, nor did he exist, in the Beginning. Auriel did though, and Magnus left before the other Et'Ada realized what Lorkhan had done, Magnus was indeed the Architect of Mundus, but he had no power over time.
Remember, it wasn't till Auriel had created and stabilized Time that "other Aspects took names for themselves, such as Mara, or Magnus, or Zen" implying they are in fact seperate entities
Magnus escaped to Aetherius, where Anu is limitless, which is why Magic has no limitations.
One of the most interesting gods, as I'm sure you will all agree
I’m watching this on the toilet at work and there’s a guy in the next stall hyperventilating bro
i’ve been WAITING for this one, and over an hour let’s goooooo! my favorite figure in Elder Scrolls
I really want to know what happened during the war before the convention.
Nurn was created, those who fled could and created the sun and stars, Auriel declares war on Lorkhan, Auriel's elves defeats Lorkhan's Men and the convention happens, but how did Auriel win and how did Lorkhan's army get trapped in Autmora?
These are great
Wife walks in when this dude says “marukati selective blah blah” and just gives me a dead stare