Blackmagic Design at NAB 2024 - ST 2110 IP Questions Answered
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- čas přidán 18. 04. 2024
- I visited with Blackmagic Design at NAB 2024 to ask some questions about the ST 2110 implementation in their newly-announced products.
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Camera Operator: Paul Green
What a pleasure to hear sensible conversation.
This is the best interview yet on the new Blackmagic broadcast devices! Thank you so much for this!!!
Now i just wanna get my habds on them to test some things
Well asked questions. Thanks. Also congrats mate on almost 35000 subscribers now. I remember watching the 10000 subscribers party live, doesn’t seem that long ago, the success of your channel is very deserved, your content is high quality and you’ve helped many people in the industry.
Thanks a ton!
Doug out here asking the real questions.
Doug: So what’s the latency?
BM guy: Latency is very important. Let me talk about it without giving you an answer.
Doug: Ok…so what’s the latency?
BM guy: I’m not a freaking engineer how am I supposed to know that?!?!
Great job, Doug!
Good stuff & was great to run into you on the BM show floor!
Thank you for sharing, and great to see you at NAB 2024
Awesome job I’m doing more and more ip these days.
I love BMD, but am very concerned they are not adopting the IPMX standard and rolling their own flavor of compressed ST 2110. Similar to not adopting DANTE and sticking with MADI.
Their own codec only applies to high frame rate UHD -- 50 or 60 fps. For other video formats the devices use standard 2110-20.
@@djp_video Yup and that´s BMD bullshit again... Their 2110 is not compatible with any other products. You won´t be able to use e.g. Sony cameras with BMD converters, etc. as Sony won´t implement the BMD codec - that´s for sure... Future will be 4K, so it needs to be compatible.
To be fair, MADI is a standard, whereas Dante is a single-vendor controlled product.
@@mikkowilson2 I guess you could make the same argument for NDI or the new Blackmagic 2110 codec.
@@raymundo670 NDI yes (which is likely why BMD isn't using it); and probably their own codec too, though that'll depend if they released the spec openly for others to implement.
BMD has a history of using standards in creative & innovate ways to deliver their products.
BMD is really doing a huge effort saying that SMPTE2110 is easy, but the reality is that it is not. It adds a huge complexity for little benefit, at least for now. Will see in some years.
It seems like they're trying to address some of the complexity. The new ethernet switch has IGMP and PTPv2 already configured, so it's plug-and-play. And many of the products are designed for point-to-point so you don't have to worry about any complicated networking.
But I agree that it is more complicated than they're making it out to be.
@@djp_video The SDI or Fiber workflow will always be easier. IP will add functionality at the cost of increasing complexity. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
It seems like they're trying to make it easier to use already existing physical infrastructure like ethernet from a central location to several locations more simple by putting it in it's own network similar to SDI camera to SDI switcher rather than tackling the aspect of hundreds of devices needing internet, dozens of cameras for live streaming and countless other devices being on the same physical network needing to be sorted on the switch/router side.
thanks doug !
Thank you! As soon as BMD provides low latency 2110 and PTZ hardware, I'm all-in!
Thanks for asking the right questions here. For portable setups, I’ve been using easy NMOS, which is anything but easy or production worthy. I would love to see a series of videos where the various options are actually configured and routed - either through their videohub smart controller pro or the Ethernet switch. I’ve got several 10G switches, so I’m hoping the controller is enough, but I’m not opposed to their switch if it really is as easy as they are marketing it to be. I’ve not measured latency on my setup, but I’ve done several conferences with imag, and delays for audio sync have not been an issue. It’s actually been less than routing through my SDI gear.
All I want from BMD is a 4K version of the camera converter. I am not interested in IP2110 BMD.
LOL, that's short sighted. BMD will not make a 4K Camera Converter, it's an old workflow. 2110 is being adopted industry wide.
It sure would be nice to have that product. The 2110 stuff has some limitations that make it a non-starter for IMAG or sports applications where latency can kill you.
@@ians.4284 Yeah not in IMAG it isn't :)
I’ve been asking BMD for these for the last 5 years haha it’s pretty apparent it isn’t going to happen which is kind of frustrating because they already have an updated Fiber Converter and Bi-Directional converter, so it seems like it wouldn’t take a lot of engineering to make happen haha but what do I know lol. I’ve contemplated getting a friend who has somewhat of an engineering background to help me take apart one of my camera converters and see how difficult it would be to put in the new fiber converter and bi directional converter but i’m not sure i’m ready to brick one of my camera converters haha
Great interview , but what the heck are we watching on that monitor?
What is function of audio visualiser located below the video monitor?
Is it only show clipping and non clipping?
It lets you visually see the audio level. For most productions, ideal levels have you bouncing into the yellow regularly, but rarely (if ever) bumping into the red.
It also has a pair of decently good speakers in it so you can hear the audio as well.
Good information here. I have experienced the same ~3 frame latency on the 2110 converters end to end. I hope that can be made lower but I feel like routing through a switch will add slightly more latency, similar to Dante. Also, with the ethernet switch 360p, I haven'y seen any information on if the ports are POE. I figure that if they were, it would say near the top of the information page. I don't think it is a good move for them to announce a line of 2110 converters that can run over POE and then create a switch that doesn't power them, and you have to use power supplies at each converter.
It seems as though Blackmagic intends for you to use their IP Converter 4x12G PWR converter if you need PoE. There is no mention of PoE on their Ethernet Switch, so I'm pretty confident it doesn't have it.
Soooooo. Now we need a class on WHAT THE HECK IS 2110!!!!
I'm doing one of those soon.
It is video over IP, similar to Dante for audio.
@@jcnash02Thanks. Watched a few videos on it.
Hi Doug! I watched your video on SDI cables a while back, I was wondering would 1694A be a good choice for putting on a cable reel/ for mobile broadcast solutions? Or would I absolutely need 1694F or some other more flexible cable? Trying to keep costs relatively low.
I don't feel like 1694A is flexible enough to go on most reels comfortably.
Do you need 169x series? Would 1505 work for you? What kinds of signals (resolution/frame rate) and distances are you working with?
@@djp_video 1505 could possibly work. Would be running 720p/1080i. Around 200-250ft. Wouldnt do any longer cables than that.
1505A would handle that just fine. It's good for 300 feet for 3G-SDI, so you'd be well within spec. 1505A would be much easier to work with than 1694A.
@@djp_video Alright, thanks for the replies!
Please don’t use spools. Coil your cable. Yes, the news folks seem to love spools but the sports production world doesn’t use them. The last time I saw spools, excluding videos from Europe, was on a CBC truck around 1996.
Hey Doug, you have any plans to try and test out any Dante AV Ultra stuff?
Possibly. I'd like to become familiar with it. But right now it's prohibitively expensive. At some point I'll reach out to my contacts at Audinate to see if they can help me get my hands on some things for review.
Thanks Doug, time to brush up on networking... wish he at least had a best case scenario number for the latency question
I'll be covering that in some detail in an upcoming video. But basically, I don't think I'd expect to see much less than 2 frames based on their methodologies for implementation.
@@djp_video Thanks for holding their *feet to the fire* on that point, 3frame latency.
So it sounds like, but isn't crystal clear: Will a new SDI - 2110 mini converter SFP model work with a SDI-optical SFP and be interoperable with legacy SDI optical converters (like the earlier BMD units, Aja FiDos, etc...)?
No, he's talking about the SMPTE Hybrid Fiber for URSA and the Studio Camera Converters for the BMD Studio Cams
No. The older stuff uses SDI-over-fiber... it's the same signal as you get on a coax BNC cable, just using light rather than voltage. The new stuff is IP-based... a completely different type of signal, even on the upcoming SFP versions of the converters.
The advantage is that the SFPs won't be expensive like the video-certified models we've been using, but the disadvantages are that we'd need new equipment and that there will be a minimum of 2 frames of latency, unless they figure out a way to cut that down. But it will always be at least 1 frame.
@@djp_video so it sounds to me, that you remain cautious about implementation of 2110 into existing live production workflows, as an IP based replacement for video over optical fibre?
Quite cautious. The current 2.5-3 frames of latency with their current products is high enough that I'll not use them. If they can figure out how to reduce that I'd potentially be interested. But there are other challenges as well, like integrating their new stuff into an existing intercom solution. They're making an assumption that the intercom only lives on Blackmagic devices, when in reality they almost always encompass more.
Good questions Doug, ones that many would like to know … I think it’s more than Reasonable for BMD to have a latency number that they are aiming for when using there equipment, even if that was a basic point to point or one pass via there switch. Expecting people to but the product to test if it works for them is frustrating model
Pyxis is 2110?
To power it?
I don't believe Pyxis supports 2110.
2110 is a way of sending video over an Ethernet network. I'll be doing a video on it here soon.
@@djp_video It has ethernet port that's why i ask
It seems that is primarily for copying footage off of the CF Express storage cards. It's only 1 Gb so it doesn't even remotely have enough bandwidth for 2110 video.
@@djp_video thanks for clarifying
Blackmagic is at it again... The managed to present 3 different versions of the same Product (8ch 2110 converter)! Version 1, mentioned in the NAB announcement video has a 100GBE Port and SDI ins and outs; version 2 has no 100GBE and only SDI loop outs. Version 3 has a RJ45 Port where the 100GBE was and SDI outs. 🤣🤣 How about they make up their mind before actually showing off the Product...
One of the people I talked to at NAB mentioned that they let an old image slip into the live stream. But, yeah... consistency would be nice. I suspect that whatever shows up on the website today is what we'll see ship.
@@djp_video If I recall correctly the 100G port was even mentioned in the video. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The other two versions were even shown on the website on the tech specs page just underneath each other 😅. 100G would have been very convenient for a stagebox-setup. But instead we get also no 25G (for 12G 2110), RJ-45 and a mysterious new codec nobody's using... ¯\(°_o)/¯ 🤣
They are using their own codec? That doesn't make me feel good about their equipment.
For 2160p at 50 or 60 fps, yes, they do have their own codec to get the video under 10 Gbps. It's lightly compressed, and most of the data thrown away comes from invisible portions of the picture area; the compression is allegedly near visually lossless.
For all other lower-bitrate video formats (e.g. 2160p30), they use standard 2110-20 (uncompressed video).
@@djp_video okay, that is what I thought but then I got worried it was for every format.
@@TVJAY I think Nils made a comment on the PKTV Discord about their compression scheme, but didn't know it was for UHD/4K high bitrate data. Caveat Emptor I suppose, gotta watch those specs close. 🔍
There is still latency :(
Indeed. And from what I gather talking to the designers of/managers over these products at the show, it will likely never get below 2 frames. I'll be talking about that in an upcoming video.