Rock, Paper, Scissors: Three Master Duelist
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- čas přidán 13. 12. 2023
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Grandmaster Yoda is supposed to be the most powerful Jedi in the entire order, so why is that Mace Windu had far more success against Palpatine than he did? We take a look at the training and skills of Mace Windu and examine how he was able to turn himself into the bane of the Darkside.
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It's obvious that Palpatine was genuinely terrified while Windu was beating him. He surely thought at that moment the plan to destroy the Jedi that had been in the making since the Era of Darth Bane and Zannah was in serious danger of being completely ruined, something that would even alarm someone like him
What? He was acting to manipulate anakin are you good?
@@charlesthepleb could it both? you can be terrified and also use all your forces of manipulation to stay alive.
@@charlesthepleb It was only acting when he gave up at the end. He realized that he was losing the fight so he switched to manipulation to get Anakin to help him.
@@Arbidarb Yes and absolutely nothing before that point indicated he was afraid of windu. When people use their heads and compare the windu fight to the Yoda fight you can see how palpatine is constantly on the defensive trying to get away.
@@persuasivebarrier2419 No lol? He if was genuinely afraid he would have tried to get away like he did against yoda.
When fighting the dark side, Windu is the embodiment of 'Stop hitting yourself.'
As an MMA fighter, I've both lost fights to fighters I was better than, and beaten fighters who were better than me. Tactical choices/mistakes, mindset, and luck can play a large role in the outcomes of fights, not just your raw skillset and athleticism. Perhaps Mace Windu was simply more confident that he could beat Sidious than Yoda was. Belief that you will win or lose a fight can often be a self-fulfilling prophecy. (And that's before you get into the rock-paper-scissors aspect of certain skillsets compared to others).
Ask Rhonda Rousey about this truth. Her last two fights were brutal, and both fought the same way. How would you describe the mindsets, etc. of these fighters in those matches? (If you are familiar with the fights and do not mind sharing some of your professional analysis.)
Mace had to be more confident considering how much had gone down between his fight with Palpatine and Yoda's.
@skyden24195 Holm completely demoralized Rousey. She completely bought into her own hype, especially her stand-up. She had people comparing her to Tyson and Mayweather and telling her that! When anyone that knows anything about standup saw how awful hers really was. I imagine she thought "oh shit, I can't box whatsoever". With the Nunes fight I think she probably realized the skill level in her sport far surpassed her at that point. (If she had the time to think😅). Rousey had a terrible mindset. She contemplated suicide over a single loss.
@@Sad1stic I can totally see that. Rousey had gotten completely reliant on her grappling, and too often tried to employ her "trademark" armbar which opponents were easily becoming wary of. And as you pointed out, Rousey's striking/boxing game just could not hold up, also she was just taking those punches to the head with barely, if any, defense from both of her last two opponents. It looked like she was thinking she could just take the punches and get in to grapple, but those punches obviously dazed Rousey and she was no longer a functioning fighter.
A slight personal sidenote, I've always found it amusing, grateful, and sad that Rhonda's last victory in MMA was actually fought on my birthday of that year. lol.
"Mace Windu has quite a lot of Fury inside of him" - Good one!
my favorite part of the star wars community is that it always comes up with lore explanations for things that were not intentional. like the segment of the video explaining that the other jedi were actually secretly hard countered by palpatine, and it totally wasnt because they wanted to get rid of some extras quickly and didnt care to put effort into their fight choreography.
also rip dooku who specializes in the duelist form of lightsaber combat and only gets mentioned in passing even in the duelist video.
In Pokemon terms Yoda was a higher level than mace but mace had type advantage against Sith Lords so hes better against the level 100 Palpatine despite being around 95 compared to Yoda's 100
I like it
But the point is objectively wrong because the only thing windu did was disarm palps. He didn't actually fight against him using the force which is what Yoda did. Yoda disarmed palpatine AND THEN fought a force battle.
@@charlesthepleb there was a force fight between windu and palpy after being disarmed. palpy just lost really quickly because he had no answer vapaad which is what allowed windu to attune to palps lightning, bring it into his saber as defensive measure and reflect back at palpy to mirror intent.
Yoda is a better duelist than Palpatine. He had to run and throw senate pods at Yoda.
And this was Mace first time achieving the superconducting loop of vaapad. Its because of palps raw power that gave that loop energy. People dont understand what Mace was doing in the fight he has to fight Palpatine as well as concentrate to maintain that loop . Mace could continually keep fighting and have that loop buff him 😊
I don't think it was his first time, an infinite loop is what vaapad is and he has been a master of it for a long time. In books it's well known that he allows the dark side force energy to flow through him without being affected by dark side degradation by insulating himself in the force, so he has used the loop more than once.
Mace windu is actually quite lucky in that moment that finally his super obscure form is paying off because he's fighting literally one of the most evil sith to have ever existed. He would probably struggle against count Dooku because count dooku is quite reserved and constantly controls his emotions as an elegant gentleman, whereas palpatine is so evil, he's not even angry anymore He's straight up laughing and having a good time
@@klaykid117 Dont get it twisted, Mace Windu is still an insane duelist that among the Jedi only Dooku and Yoda would even have a chance of besting. And in Legends his Force Power was the second highest in the Jedi Order.
Yeah he basically is that WOW player constantly spamming the same power or 2 over an over
Canon Mace was in his prime when he fought Sidious compared to Yoda that was in retirement, 200 years prior to TPM Yoda was recognized as more powerful in his Force usage.
Yoda's greatest advantage in a duel is that he was a 2-foot tall Muppet, how are you supposed to hit that? Especially when you're obligated to cut off at least one limb first.
he was also unique. a muggsy bogues in a world of big mfers.
He was a Gremlin not a Muppet
He's the Odd Job of episode 3. Tiny hit box.
It is said in the Darth Bane Novels that Darth Bane at his best, he could command the dark side so well that, he could stand in a rainstorm and could unleash such a flurry with his lightsaber, that he would not let one drop touch his skin! That was him training too, not in a fight, so imagine that would be even faster, just saying, there is a reason the Sith call their lineage the Lineage of Bane!
Training is usually harder than the actual thing you are training for
I definitely agree that is true sometimes, but things like training for combat isn't usually one of them. There is simply no way to completely simulate combat, it's life or death when it's real and you can't know how far you can truly go to stay alive. I know we are just talking about Star Wars, but I feel like it still applies!@@maplemayhem1988
My head canon always was that when sideous fought yoda his strength had increased drastically from the deaths of 90% of the jedi around the galaxy, swaying the balance of the force towards the dark side.
The Revenge of the Sith novelization actually explains how Sidious beat Yoda. Basically it was an avatar of the Jedi versus the Avatar of the Dark Side itself. Yoda never stood a chance (and the novelization explicitly says that he never had a chance).
@@jackwitt7430 Novel is not canon
Like you said in the ROTS movie Sidious states that the darkside has never been stronger, its also stated by Maul at the end of the CW. So not really head canon, the attack on the lightside started way before TPM
@@Smoothalcoholic Considering GenerationTech was using legends material and even references stuff from the novelization, its fair gain.
@@jackwitt7430 Legends is cool but i prefer Georges take on SW, not trying to shill, i just find most characters more interesting in the canon. Maces vaapad just being him but pissed of, always ready to take action but never crossing the line.
With disney changing how crystal color works, vaapad could be used to explain the purple color of Windu, like a red tint to his blue saber for dabbling in the darkside.
This is what I always thought anyways. Blue is a Guardian's lightsaber color. And Red is Sith. The force would know what he would become. So he either found an extremely rare purple kyber crystal. Or when meditating on a blue one it changed to purple. All of this cause Samuel L Jackson wanted a purple lightsaber.
I think a better example of rock, paper, scissors in Star Wars is Anakin, Obi-Wan and Dooku.
As Anakin beat Dooku, Dooku beat Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan beat Anakin
Anakin is rock
Obi-Wan is paper
Dooku is scissors
Aside from the fact that I still stand by the belief that midichlorians only equate to your "force IQ" essentially (it doesn't set the limit of your power, just how easily your power grows), it's so nice to finally hear someone agree that Yoda is inherently more powerful than Sidious. I've always thought the same, it's just that he restricted himself
Finally, someone who understands Power Scaling. In a comparison of A (ex. Windu) vs B (ex. Palpatine) and B vs C (ex. Yoda): Just because A can beat B and B can beat C does not make A better than C.
This analogy doesn't work because Yoda can and did beat palpatine. Windu only disarmed him, yoda disarmed him and fought a battle with the force
Therefore Yoda > palpatine > mace
Palpatine could have won the windu fight if he used the force
@@charlesthepleb Lightsaber duels are battles of the force *bleep*.
@@charlesthepleb he did use the force and he lost anyway. His force lightning got thrown back against him by Mace.
It may not be an exaggeration to say 'Yoda is Jedi order', but it is grammatically incorrect. Jedi Order, Yoda is, hmm?
The statement “and sometimes shit happens” had me laughing out loud in person, gotta love the humor you’ve been sneaking in through your videos.
Bruh, that CFP burn at the end caught me off guard. Would love to see Alan’s football takes
sometimes i hesitate to click on your videos bc i always know theyll be interesting and i shouldnt sit still for 15 minutes every single time you upload but its hard to resist the temptation
So guud. "Styles makes fights".
Modern MMA is rife with these. Sometimes called MMA math: a>b, b>c, thus a>c, but then they fight and c>a. Styles make fights. Mace windy was the perfect opponent for studious and literally the only one who wins that fight in the galaxy. Also you're sleeping on kit fisto. Bruce Lee says do not fear the man who has learned 1000 punches, fear the man who has mastered 1 punch 1000 times(bad quote, you get the gist). Form 1 is basic, but when truly mastered it's so simple you can hardly ever make a mistake. Dude whooped grievous with it.
I used to fence, and man, their was once someone who would beat me near everytime.... But I could defeat those that could beat that junior...
It was very frustrating.I could beat a score of better swordsman, who would crush this novice, but damn it would i lose soo often against them. Just the way he fought didnt mesh with me, to my advantage.
And after a few losses sometimes someone gets in your head, so you subconsciously start losing the second he gets a head of you on points or the second he successfully counters your initial flurry.
Mace Windu, the ultimate Sith and Dark Jedi killer.
In terms of lightsaber styles in Legends at least Mace And Dooku were high level eights going on nine during AOTC to ROTS and before, during, and after TPM Era they were mid level eight lightsaber duelists both being the ultimate masters of form seven and form two respectfully plus Windu was a fine unarmed combatant and had great physical abilities while he was no Maul concerning hand to hand combat or physical abilities he was still highly capable it was when it came to force powers be it raw power, potential, current power levels, mastery, and experience where he was eclipsed by Dooku, Yoda, And Sidious even if only slightly by Dooku yeah.
Mace beats Dooku overall only Yoda out lasses Mace but Sidious is stronger force wise but loses mostly because vaapad
Things aren't as easy as A beats B so A also beats C. Windu uses his control of dark side energy to beat Sidious but he would lose to Yoda. It should also be normal for a fully trained Sith Assassin to kill Jedi masters. Sith selection and training is beyond brutal.
Exactly: Obi-Wan being able to defeat Vader doesn’t mean he could defeat Dooku.
@@Mr-Rinn that's the other example I was thinking of. Fighting styles, psychology, and familiarity all goes into the equation.
0:29, Pointing out the circumstantial factors that provide advantages or disadvantages to different combatants is actually pretty significant to the topic of fan discussion over who would win in a fight and in Star Wars, it often comes down to who used their environment better or had a superior strategy rather than power or sheer skill, especially in the context of Force users.
Even in the context of non-Force users, such as Rebels facing the Empire, Rebels and other factions that would cross the Empire would often exploit the Empire’s reliance on its own image and overwhelming power and resources to have any successes over them.
5:09, While the Force Scream explanation was added in following media depicting this fight, the original scene merely suggests Palpatine could simply augment his physicality (or, in this case, his speed) to a degree higher than any of these other Force users due to superior Force potential, Windu (whom Lucas stated beat Palpatine fair and square) being the only individual able to compare to it.
6:13, It’s also important to note that Palpatine has to focus a lot more on maintaining his augmented physicality when compared to the younger Windu, another advantage Windu has over Palpatine despite the latter’s power (he notably struggles against Mace’s physical strength and loses his lightsaber and the fight because he was kicked in the face). And with the concept of Vaapad and its Dark Side repelling qualities added after the film’s release, there’s also the argument that Palpatine simply underestimated Windu due to his own power, which cost him the fight, as underestimating the will or capabilities of others and getting tunnel visioned by strong emotion is a repeating flaw in the character of Palpatine, from being too distracted from shocking Luke with Force Lightning to defend himself against Vader attacking him to failing to understand and successfully manipulate Ezra Bridger to his duel with Savage and Maul, where he only ended the fight when started to become physically exhausted after dragging it out for fun, which could have given Maul the chance to kill him. The other way to view the scene was that Palpatine suspected he could lose to Windu and banked on Anakin’s intervention to score the final victory.
Alan is what happens when you’re job is to devour and analyze all things Star Wars. Another excellent video, great job as always. Keep up the good work, you are Generation Tech.
One of your better segments, Alan.
When are we getting a collaboration with star wars theory!!! The best 2 star wars channels in my opinion!!!🔥🔥🔥
10:04 in legends, Mace had to hunt down Depa Bilaba because she went to the darkside while on a mission on Harun Kal. Mace had to hunt her down because they were the only 2 masters of the form & she would have killed almost any other duelist
I love your comparisons, your breakdowns, and the logic you put behind everything! Please keep it up!!
I still don't understand why the council after seeing Anakin and how emotional he was didn't assign Mace as his Master, I mean Obi Wan was okay as a master but Mace would have been so much better
Plo koon would teach him to channel his emotion into Djemso in a better way, both of them like piloting too. I think Mace would criticise Anakin more than kenobi did and he wouldn't teach him vaapad, Mace might be a good Jedi master but for a problem child like Anakin.
If Mace Windu decided to not arrest Palpatine, how is Palpatine going to execute Order 66? He needed justification for it after all.
0:20
Speaking of the Sith attack on the Jedi Temple in SWTOR, imagine that the Jedi had previously discovered the intentions of their enemies and decided to apply the "Russian method", evacuating the entire temple and getting rid of any valuables. The face that Malgus and the Sith would make when epically breaking into the temple with their ships and suddenly seeing that there is no one to fight against would be worth seeing 🤣🤣🤣
Now imagine that happening during Order 66 when Vader and the 501st marched into the Jedi Temple.
I imagine something like this happening afterward.
Sidious: "Lord Vader, how did it go with your mission at the Jedi Temple?"
Vader: "Urrr.....ummmm......There are no more living Jedi left at the temple, my master."
Sidious: "Good. All that's left of the once mighty Jedi Order is a handful of confused Jedi off world that can easily be dealt with."
Vader: "But, master.....I..."
Sidious: "Do not worry about your feelings at the moment, my young apprentice. You have done well. Now, go make preparations. By this time tomorrow, the entire galaxy will see what's left of the Jedi. We shall have a great burning of lightsabers in front of the empty Jedi Temple."
Vader: "But many of the Separatist leaders are still alive. I'll go take care of them right now. Don't worry master, I won't fail you this time."
Sidious: "Yes, go now."
(Talking to himself) "I sense great fear in my new apprentice."
🤣🤣🤣
The hierarchy I made is the following:
4. Regular force sensitive: Obi Wan, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, Qordis, Kopecz, Lord Kaan, etc.
3. Exceptional Force sensitives: Dooku, Windu, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Malgus, Vader (because of his injuries), Caedus, Bane (and every single Banite Sith: Plagueis, Zannah, Tenebrus, etc)
2. Extremely Gifted Demi gods: Yoda, Palpatine, Vitiate, Marka Ragnos, etc.
1. Gods: Anakin (full potential), Luke and the Celestials (Father, Son and Daughter).
A list of Lightsaber skill would be different though.
Obiwan is not a regular force user in any capacity and Dooku as well as Vader on the same tier Lool
@@Smoothalcoholic I don’t know if you would put Obi Wan lower or higher? And Dooku was very powerful. I would say Vader is stronger, but not by a big margin.
@@EwingAmaterasu Obiwan and Vader were on the same tier as Yoda/Sidious, Vader would force choke Dooku.
Palpatine knows gamer logic. CC and Drop the adds before you attack the elites.
🤔
I am also betting. There is a very angry and slightly cyborg Ex-Jedi master lurking in the depths of the Underworld.
I always thought Yoda the advantage over Sidious but after watching this, it makes a lot more sense.
In the video game Obi-Wan, you can do a battle royal of all the jedi in game, Windu almost always came out on top, followed by Qui Gon
Mace Windu is my favorite star wars character. As a Mace Windu fan I will admit that Yoda is the more powerful compared to Mace . But what gave Mace the edge in his fight against Palpatine was vaapad. So Sidious speed gives him the ability to defeat some of the orders best Jedi . But skill wise Palpatine is not skilled just has speed . Mace normally would have issues contending with Palpatine but his Ace card was Vaapad. Vaapad gave Mace the possibility to win . The superconducting loop of vaapad. Which bolstered his abilities
"Palpatine is not skilled" has to be the most stupid thing I've ever heard.
@@charlesthepleb not stupid you need to read the novel try explaining your miniscule knowledge of Star Wars . How often do you think Palpatine trained since he killed Plaguies? He didn't train . It's even stated in Revenge of Sith Novel. Thst when palpatine touched his lightsaber he hadn't trained in decades. Even in novel when he ran he was surprised he could run. All palpatine does is use his Emerson in Darksei to bolster his lack of skill
I'm not into the Jedi stuff very much but it's interesting to learn that they aren't just throwing their lightsabers around. Thanks!
In the book, "Queen's Peril" by E.K. Johnston, there is a passage that depicts Darth Maul's pre-planning his anticipated confrontation with Qui-Gon and Obi-Won. Maul had purposely charted the route he wanted to lead the Jedi through, a path that had several areas that could serve to separate the Jedi during the dual, two of those areas being the multiple catwalks of various levels and of course the ray-shield corridor, the corridor eventually to be the deciding factor. The scene described even states that Darth Maul, while examining what he believed would be the final battle ground (which it did turn out to be,) Maul took a moment to stare down the deep chasm and ponder what lay at the bottom.
Although Maul was initially successful in separating the Jedi and defeating the more experienced of the two, the Sith Lord's downfall was his gloating over what he perceived as Obi-Won's last moments of life as the younger Jedi clung to the small protrusion in the chasm; Darth Maul becoming content in delaying the final blow in order to torment Obi-Won. What Maul did not count on was Obi-Won's rage actually taking over the Jedi in that moment (when he looked to his fallen master) which enabled Obi-Won to muster a powerful force-jump, quickly retrieve Qui-Gon's lightsaber (which Maul had forgotten about) and strike before the arrogant Sith could react.
There’s always a counter.
If I were a Jedi, I would train in Form 3 for blocking blaster bolts etc, but then focus on using The Force directly in confrontations with other Force users. Vader just pushed aside Reva's blade with ease, and he was greatly diminished compared to his previous identity.
If Disney ever moves away forward from the Skywalker Saga (as in no more characters from it exist unless they live hundreds of years naturally but not likely happening) it seems a natural choice to have a "Dark Side Yoda" as an antagonist. The idea of it certainly makes me want it.
dooku was a lot like palpitine's lightsaber. he had mastered 1 on 1 combat but its usefulness to his ego had been outgrown. he fed off others by mocking and airing his superiority but that still wasn't enough. had hoped palp would provide a light at the end of the tunnel, a future of transition he was still toying with, but met his end with an anakin bullet train traveling his whole life to meet him. his attraction to both jedi and the sith were for all the wrong personal reasons but dripped with purpose for the force to manipulate. the devilishness of the tilt to his saber was still a mile below palp's aristocratic nature to detail but dooku was too late to learn it was just another tool in his dusty head. his jedi glass was too full.
I always wondered if Sidious underestimated Windu so much or if he was dragging the fight on purpose so Anakin would have to make a choice that would push him to the dark side.
I guess he was so prepared that there was basically no way he could lose in the grand scheme of things even if he was genuinely struggling against Windu.
Day 312 PLEASE DO MORE TACTICS VIDEOS AND STRUCTURES LIKE THE CIS NAVY STRUCTURE AND RANKS
I’ve said it before, the description and feats of Windu make Vaapad seem kind of like Soresu in how defensively strong it is. Mace is the only Jedi other than Kenobi who could defend against Palpatine’s swordsmanship, but unlike Kenobi he also was strong against force attacks and had the counter-attack ability that is also part of Vaapad. Vaapad has weaknesses (Makashi and maybe Djem So), but it matches up perfectly with Juyo.
i feel like windu just had a fundamental advantage. it wasnt just about his aggressive lightsaber form, but also that he had mastered them all. if he needed to have kenobi level defense, he would just use that form for as long as he needs, flowing between them as needed.
basically vaapad was good, but windu just made it seem even better than it was through personal skill.
He doesn't just match up perfectly against ju-yo, he matches up perfectly against dark side users in general.
@@BeanCasserole-wg7wu I disagree. His matchup against Dooku was pretty bad. I also think he is roughly even with Vader, who prime Sidious could speed blitz and beat easily (even without force lightning). Windu destroys Juyo and Ataru practitioners (and probably Shi Cho), because his counter-attack based form is great against aggression, but does not have as great a matchup against more balanced fighters.
@@thrawncaedusl717 When Dooku still used the light side of the force then yes I think Dooku could beat him, but the way Vaapad worked was that it was basically impossible for him to lose against dark side users once Mace successfully fell into Vapaad. Vaapad was essentially a trump card against the dark side.
When are we going to get the Mace Windu saga?
Let me summarize. Psychic beats Fighting, Dark beats Psychic, Fighting beats Dark.
Very spot on analysis as without Anakin, Sidious would die at windu's hands in revenge of the sith as Windu's vappa style affectively neutered and turn the strength of Juyo, Sidious style against itself and empower the attacks of windu himself. Though would argue that the fight between Yoda and Sidious is a draw as both are evenly matched and cannot gain an advantage over one another as the masters of their respective dies and Yoda only retreats due to aid coming to his enemies aid.
Thanks again my friend.
I'm unaware of who taught Yoda originally (his 'Master').
Should anyone know, I'd appreciate your answer and perhaps identify any source material I could read?
Ta ! :)
What if mace used the force to soften his landing and then went into hiding
13:25 that’s not a valid excuse, a true Jedi like grand master yoda would not let those emotions affect him in any way possible. Maybe for a quick second when he and master kenobi 1st entered the Jedi temple he would falter and it would effect him but he then would IMO calm himself and fall back on his 900 years of Jedi skills and teachings to center himself and realize that he must stay positive and stay one with the light side of the force so they can follow its will and let it guide him to the sith to the one responsible for all this death and carnage. And he must rely/trust on the force and if is the one that will take out sidious then he must be calm and centered and not falter one bit becuz then he wouldn’t be able to. That’s probably why he lost and why he couldn’t stop sidious becuz he wasn’t the one that was supposed to and it could’ve been worse off for yoda if he wasn’t centered and calm, he could’ve even perished by sidious’ hands if not for his almost 900 years of Jedi training and the force guiding him to his destiny so he could play his part on the upcoming “Original Trilogy” documentary as per the journal of the whills episodes 4-6. (Of the almighty force praise be their names in their almighty force and teachings do we pray to you that you guide us through these dark times and into the light, aforcemen)
at around 12:10 in the video, it says that if there is a Jedi and Sith fighting, the Sith will usually win, but Yoda says that the Dark side is not stronger than the Light.
More like Kid Fisted. And the rest of those Jedi just came across like a bunch of ceremonial Jedi when compared to Sidious. They looked like they had no idea what was happening. Guarantee that they arrogantly just thought that they were gonna simply roll into a Sith Lord’s office, who has been moonlighting as the freakin’ Supreme Chancellor right under the noses of ALL the Jedi, and easily take him down…no problem…
So of course Windu’s clown companions got straight up lanced, skewered and impaled upon Palpatine’s blade within a few calculated strokes.
Well, given that sith only use lightsabers to mock the jedi it makes for an interesting look at things
This is the best Stat wars channel. I used to like theory. Still do, but this channel is all the meat and potatoes with none of the whining. I'm sad enough about how luke was treated without listening to a grown man cry
Accurate
Wrong about Kit Fisto being weak. Form I was very easy to pick up, VERY difficult to master. Sidious was actually quite worried about being engaged in long duel against both Fisto and Windu. Kit Fisto was an unpredictable duelist, he embarrassed General Grevious early into the Clone Wars
Mace having an anti Sith form is basically the counter to any and everything Darkside. An since only Yoda beat him in experience more or less Mace was the paper to Palps rock.. an most Jedi usually loved playing scissors anyways in this era which didnt help an already rigged game. Even if Sideous somehow wasnt aware Mace was the anti Sith
Also, in war, theres NO such thing as overkill. Its Life and Death, kill or be killed in the sorta version of it the Jedi and Republic was in vs the Sith an CIS. If the enemy is outmatched they get to run an live or they get overpowered an wiped out if determined not to admit defeat which while rare happens.
Isn't there a much simpler explanation than all this esoteric theory? Sidious had no motivation to win the duel with Windu. He needed Anakin to see him as the underdog. Sidious threw the fight.
I think the argument here is that Palpatine didn't have to throw the fight because that one theoretical property of Vaapad turned out to actually work and elevated Mace Windu to Palpatine's power level (and he was already at Palpatine's skill level, and had Shatterpoint). But if Palpatine had really wanted to win (if it was actually life-and-death to him), he probably would have played it a bit safer and managed to run away once Windu disarmed him (like he did when Yoda disarmed him), at which point it's anyone's guess what the final outcome of the fight would have been. And if Windu had been less skilled, or hadn't seen the shatterpoint, or the Vaapad loop thingy hadn't worked, Palpatine would absolutely have thrown the fight.
It's pretty funny how Sidious spent most of his life following an extremely slow and meticulous plan in order to destroy the Jedi, while other Sith, like Darth Malgus, just crashed ships full of Dark Side's adepts into the Jedi Temple in plan: "Let's end this sh*t quickly. I want to be home for dinner!"
One could say he learned from their experiences and his plan, Darth Plaugeuis' plan, was more in line with Banes philosophy.
Sidious comes from the Greek word sid ("slow" or "incremental") and the adjective ious ("to burn"). Sideous literally means "slow burn." Also, none of this is true.
He's named Darth Sidious for a reason. His name is a wordplay on the word "insidious," so his plan is exactly what his name means.
Vapaad & Shatterpoint. Mace was a beast.
9:45 why wasnt anakin trained by mace windu.
honestly, he would have been a perfect fit..
Yoda and Mace Windu don't need to fight to see who's stronger they can just have a sparring match.
Mace windu should have trained anakin
yep. and if he was like yoda, he would be a good master for dooku too.
While I don't always agree with your opinions (though in this video I do) I always really appreciate how much deep thought you put into your video essays. You know your lore and you clearly enjoy the technical side of the setting (as do I) and I can tell you apply it to your thoughts on whatever subject matter you are speaking of. MTFBWY
Windu is feared by both the jedi & the sith, even the notorious droid general grevious had avoided him at all costs.
The Obi-wan Maul deul was bs. Just there to move the story forward.
They made Maul sit there for like 10 seconds not moving or reacting at all just so Obi could cut him in half.
Even the stroke Obi-wan used was slow and very projected. It shouldn't have happened that way, and wouldn't have if not for the sake of telling the story how they wanted to...
Windu is the better swordsman, Yoda is the better Force wielder
This is objectively false.
@@charlesthepleb Only Sith deal in absolutes.
@@charlesthepleb Yeah that's true, Mace Windu just can't lose when he's going against dark side force users because of vaapad. Mace Windu has even stated himself that he is not yoda's equal in battle or otherwise.
@@charlesthepleb Mace beat Jango,Talzin and Sidious as well as Dooku. There is no one in the Jedi order that could pull of that feat. also compared to Yoda, Mace fights much better with aggression and has great physicality.
@@Smoothalcoholic You're wrong on so many levels here. First of all Jango is a normal non force sensitive human. Obi wan beat Cad Bane someone who is objectively better than Jango. Talzan isn't a duelist, nor once again did she use her magika against windu in the battle, as for the dooku fight i dont know what you're talking about.
Right off the bat I always interpreted the mace windu fight as being scripted on palpatine's side so it can end the way it ends when it ends with the intended audience getting the intended story presented to them. Now mostly this is because the idiots making the prequels somehow had even less of an idea how to make a fight scene than the people in the original trilogy's production and utterly failed to convey any sort of...well _anything_ that goes into a making a fight scene a story and just ended up with "okay, here are mace and some extras that are about to die entering the room, okay the extras are dead it's time to say our lines now, okay lines are done next scene" but parsing it against lore it still comes out as everything that happened in the fight probably went pretty much exactly as palpatine planned it: even the lowball descriptions of the guy have his situational awareness, multitasking, and predictive abilities as all being *utterly* unmatched and all that changes in that regard when you jump between iterations of the character is whether the bar for "utterly unmatched" is being set by "huh...you know what? I could probably take that guy as long as he's acting anywhere near this stupid...I _really_ should not be able to take that guy" movie-jedi standards, roughly-what-they-should-be game-jedi standards, or even the ridiculous nonsense you see in the hilariously inconsistent books and comic books where some mid-tier schlub is capable of ripping a black hole apart with brute force and palpatine is a sapient cosmic storm with near omniscience on a system wide range and low to moderate general awareness of the whole galaxy at once all while the "equally powerful but less combat focused" yoda still has trouble lifting an X-wing over in another book.
Yeah. According to the book, Mace Windu saw breaking the window as a 'shatterpoint,' presumably one that would determine the outcome of the duel - though it may have been that Anakin having to look at Windu's dead body would have changed his perspective and later actions. But even if Windu did genuinely disarm Palpatine, Yoda did too, and Palpatine ended up winning that fight. I'm inclined to believe that Mace Windu actually defeated Palpatine and would have killed him if Anakin hadn't been there, and I'm not sure Palpatine fully understood how dangerous Windu would be; but this was absolutely a deliberate, calculated risk on Palpatine's part, and it paid off exactly as intended.
@@samueldimmock694 I don't have any issue with him winning a lightsaber fight with palpatine, it's the idea that that _matters_ that I have an issue with, the entire point of the guy is that he is a sith who is entirely focused on indirect actions and broad scale focus and long term planning, he is one of the few people in-setting who actually understands just how mind-bogglingly idiotic most of them have been acting for the past untold thousands of years (that's actually where most of the rage and hate making him so powerful comes from). even in a straight up confrontation he is the kind of guy to notice that you just decided to go after him, wait a moment for you to be in a convenient location, then kill you from the next megastructure over while he is in the middle of giving a speech without so much as batting an eye because the part of his awareness actually running his body and dealing with the situation around him and the part using the force are almost entirely divorced from eachother. ideally he'll even do it in such a way as to set up a narrative for people to follow into working towards his goals because killing people *matters* so he would much rather set things up to have it matter in his favor but he won't be _to_ picky about that if you are actively making your way over to his office.
how to say it succinctly...for Mace Mace started fighting Palpatine when he and his buddies all finished rambling through their little speech and took their ready stances but for Palpatine the fight with specifically Mace started way the heck back when mace decided to confront him and the small but pivotal skirmish that that fight was a part of in the larger war that he was actually engaging in started when Palpatine finally found out what was going on in the banking clans and he became aware that his cover was either already blown or soon would be.
as dangerous as they were as upfront combatants they were hardly unmatched on the matter, what made force users of any stripe so powerful was the extreme ease of use and downright supernatural ease of _acquisition_ that they all got handed to them for soft power (whether they wanted it / could handle it or not sadly, probably the biggest that their galaxy is such a shitshow). basically a lightsaber is useless compared to almost any weaponry more serious than a basic blaster→even hardware as absurd as the death star really is weak compared to the power of things like the basics of proper planning and logistics→planning and logistics are a step below social engineering...though I wouldn't really call them weaker, just structurally subservient.
@@evernewb2073 True.
With Windu and Sidious, it’s not so clear who won, but Yoda actually forced sidious to throw away his saber because he was losing until he used the force and ultimately won
I think Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Dooku also have a Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic.
Anakin has powerful strikes, like a Rock.
Obi-Wan can cover all of his bases, like paper. He is therefore, the perfect counter to Anakin.
Dooku delivers precise strikes, like scissors would. He can therefore pierce Obi-Wan's defenses.
But then Dooku gets overwhelmed by Anakin's power.
prehaps windu would have been the beter master for Anakin
Yoda also beat palpatine in lightsaber combat so the new emperor resorted to the force
To Me, it's Only a Win if You can walk away with Your Life!
Master Tinn was responsible for training the Jedi how to fly the delta 7 e
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Palps didn't have any problem against MW. He had to drag the fight outside until Anakin arrived. If he'd killed MW outright like the other Jedi then Anakin wouldn't have faced the moral dilemma and chosen the dark path. Against Yoda, Palps had to defend himself for real.
We dint even bring up the most confusing part of it all mace windu or any Jedi except one ever beat yoda in a duel and the one to do it my favorite Jedi PLO koon it’s just so confusing if we add in that information
Um Sidious dropped him out of a million story buildings window Putin style.
He did struggle against Yoda though, but his force powers beat out Yoda. Yoda won their saber duel.
The sith really are their own worst enemies. The average individual sith is stronger than their jedi counterpart, but they always plot and scheme making sith extremely paranoid and there is just as likely a chance of them being killed by a jedi as them being killed by a sith betrayal. The sith being so paranoid of betrayal that they will betray those around them just as a safeguard. Swtor has an excellent example of this if you played the sith warrior story. You serve darth barras faithfully just for him to grow fearful of your power and make an attempt on your life
Best duelists of the prequels.
Vader and eventually Luke surpass them
Also, Mace windu is the only Jedi in Star Wars canon to use both sides of the force side and dark side, in perfect balance also guys, quick question which light saber color did Anakin Skywalker deserve besides blue, green, purple, yellow, or white in Star Wars Canon as the prophesied chosen one destined to bring balance to the force
Black lightsaber since it matches his outfit. 😁
really i mean from the canon meanings @@shawn092182
Yee I get it
What if Maul won and anakin never being discovered
In which universe did Palpatine not struggle against Yoda?
Very Nice
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if you do power rankings you need to be specific otherwise nobody wins and everybody wins because everyone suddenly gains every advantage and disadvantage at the exact same time like you have super regeneration and suffering from deadly neurotoxins at the same time
Too bad Maul is only half a Sith am I right?
and gets zero push back for surviving a fall down a huge shaft.... after being cut in two. meanwhile, palp surviving causes a huge uproar in "logic" with a movie around magic.
@@persuasivebarrier2419yes but the death star exploded. Into space dust.
@@realBatman-89 yeah, after. long enough to escape, yeah? luke managed to slow-walk his father on the way out, have a nice end of times chat.
@@realBatman-89 If you read the Bane trilogy then you will learn about essence transfer.
@@persuasivebarrier2419 bro what???? He was thrown down the reactor shaft and you're talking about how slow Luke Skywalker walks??? 😂👍
You made excuses for Yoda ... but not for Anakin ...
Wars'
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Those 3 are not known as the best duelist stop disrespecting dooku.
That’s right mace windu in Star Wars Canon beat Palpatine, fair and square even much more than Yoda
Hmmm, a thing people forget was that Padme was working with 2k other star system senators to remove Palps from power if he didn't surrendered his position. Windu really f--- up.
Yup can't unsee that israeli flag..