This pastor's wedding night "joke" epitomizes Christian sexism (Livestream)
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- Pastor Josh Howerton, who leads Lakepointe Church in Texas, is getting some well-deserved criticism after telling a hypothetical new bride to “do what he tells you to do” on her wedding night.
The problem is that his joke wasn’t funny and has a really despicable underlying message.
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Thank you to Yanely Del Rosario for providing captioning help!
During my 1st marriage when I was having problems (emotional abuse, having a gun aimed at me) I was told I had to stay in the marriage and pray. I prayed and cried and couldn’t understand why God wanted me to be with someone who might kill me. Decided not to take this advice and get a divorce. I believed my life was just as important as his. I have not been to a church since 1986.
you are not alone truly. I am going on my 50th this summer to a wonderful fun guy who is my best friend. I was told by so many Christians that I would regret leaving this marriage of 4 nightmare years. I always needed to just be a better wife ... I have no regrets .
Good for you!!! People who grew up with internet take for granted how isolated women were before we could post on subreddits like AITA to figure out if we're being exploited or not
I’m so proud of you for making what must have been an incredibly difficult decision. I have no doubt you did the right thing.❤
I’m so sorry you were not protected by your church! Too many women experience that, and sadly, many die.
Goodness! Who in their right mind would tell someone to stay married to a monster. I love my kids, I’d tell them to get divorced and come live with me. Agnostic here for reference.
If you notice how he’s dressed, you can see he’s one of those pastors whose persona rests on being cool and hip. He is obviously trying to be edgy. His humor is incredibly lame and incredibly juvenile, which is consonant with a fundamentalist’s basic understanding of human beings, and especially human sexuality. He is being true to form.
Pastor Dave from That Seventies Show.
I wouldn't have said it quite as politely as you did. Well done.
He embodies the worst thing anyone would reasonably think of someone who looks that young: a crudeness, a lack of refinement.
@@dominicfucinari1942 and don’t forget an immaturity.
Has he had botox in forhead and a brow lift? Kinda looks like it.
People in that culture do not see the sexism that we all see. They have been groomed and conditioned from birth to accept this and normalize this behavior and treatment. They will double down and say we are all too sensitive and woke, humorless, jerks.
Yet when someone jokes about Christianity, they huff and get defensive.
Considering how so few liberals seem to have a sense of humor in the first place I would consider that the assumption is more or less accurate.
@@Deridus How humorous have Christoid fundamentalists been, in your experience?
@@dominicfucinari1942 Actually, extremely funny. It's amazing what a dark sense of humor and an open mind can do for you... Probably explains why their membership is as high as it is in some places.
@@Deridus Idk what you're talking about. I grew up christian, in a not-so fundamentalist sect, even, but their sense of humor either is only funny to christians or comes at the expense of a group like the LGBTQ+ community. The dark jokes I've heard wouldn't be made because they're christian. I do agree that a lot of people online (left and right) tend to be pretty sensitive and their humor tends to be only funny to those in their specifc circles. But that tends to be most humor, no? Jokes typically play on things like culture, beliefs, the situation, etc, so jokes are typically geared towards the audience recieving those jokes, specifically. Like I have an extremely morbid sense of humor, and I could NEVER make dark jokes I'd find funny to my christian friends and acquaintances when I was super christian.
Now that I have addressed the dark sense of humor comment. "An open mind." You're fucking joking, right? Fundamentalist Christians are some of the most closed minded people. They literally think THEIR rights are being stripped due to gay marriage being legal in a secular nation (that was founded to be a secular nation might I add). They think it's fine to not allow financially stable, gay couples to adpot and leave children in the awful system because "gays = sin, and so letting a child be around sin shouldn't be allowed," which ignores the fucking reality that the system is hell, and children fare much better in financially stable, two parent homes, than in it. This also ignores how much "sin" children will be exposed to in the system. If this is "open-mindedness," I'd hate to know what you think "close minded" means.
HER wedding day...HIS wedding night...see the problem, folks?
Yeah... sick. After the wedding night the marriage begins.. poor bride. And it's true.. most women will never be as happy as they were on their wedding day. We need to really really really really change that.
Imagine telling this crowd a 'joke' about a virgin husband getting schooled by his experienced wife.
Yeah, it should be "THEIR" or "OUR" wedding day. It isn't just "his" or "her"!
Yes, and for people like this pastor there are probably stereotypical roles afterwards where he is assigned things that are done every couple weeks like cutting the grass or washing the cat, while she gets all the daily chores like cooking, cleaning, laundry and childcare.
Car, not cat.
As a small child when my parents explained how I would grow up and meet a stranger that I would love then marry which they told me how at a ceremony daddy would give me away and everyone would be crying because they were so happy for me and then my parents would throw a party and I would leave to go live with the guy well, I was horrified. And all my girlfriends thought it was great. Oh, I left out the part about the dowry because back then it was expected. Yep. They were going to pay some stranger so they could get rid of me and cry they'd be so happy. And the dress only worn once. Happiest day of your life they said. When I calmed down they simply said well I'd be expected to go on with my own life as an adult so what would I rather do than get married... live in the forest with the animals as my friends and neighbors. And they could visit if they saw fit. I'm almost 70, still single and really would love to live in a little place in a forest but I wouldn't mind having human neighbors close by. As for religion I simply can't pray to or worship a male god or pray to his male son when I've been treated as a second class citizen my whole life.
You sound perfect for my dream hippie community.
You sound like you saw right through their BS and I'm happy for you that you get to live your life a single, free woman: *as you desire*
Sorry yoh've been treated badly, I have too sis. It's crap.
I want the wedding, but to another bride 👰🏻♀️❤👰🏽♀️
@@MsPoliteRants I'll be in the market soon for a hippie commune.
@@alienonion4636 I do dream of one, but lack resources. I have considered trying out one of those intentional communities, like the East Wind community. See how it’s run and all. Could be interesting
When I was a practicing Christian, I went to a church that was really big on the man being the "head of the household"...that I needed to serve and obey him. Had a lady from my church admonish me because I served food to my three young children first...she tells me that my husband should be served first being that he was the head of the household. I told her he was a grown man that was more than capable of serving himself, that my kids were my priority and I'd always see they got their food first...always. She then tells me my husband worked hard to provide for us and thats the thanks I showed him? I tell her he was just a part time cashier that I had to nag to get him to go to work half the time, that if it wasn't for public assistance, we'd be going hungry. Eff these church people! 🤨
“Eff these church people”. My sentiments exactly. 🤣🤣
I grew up in a church like that as well. Our church was big on the man being the head of the household, blah, blah, blah. Glad to be away from that nonsense.
When my wife and I were going to more conservative churches, my wife mentioned that she was trying to be submissive and all that. I told her that I never wanted that - I didn't want a wallflower or sycophant, I wanted someone who would call out my BS and challenge me. The model of a submissive wife most of those churches push, to be honest, sounds boring. I want a partner, not a house pet. Just sayin' - not all the guys in those churches agree with the whole submissive wife bit. (Since then we've gotten away from those types of churches, and go to a more liberal and affirming church.)
As a 65-year-old, I find this whole "serving the husband" weird and performative. When I was a child in the 1960s, I never saw my grandmother "serve" my grandfather. They were born in the early 1900s! The food was on the table and they served themselves. I never saw her running into the kitchen to get him things while he relaxed. And they were very very happily married.
Whenever I hear or about people saying things like that, I just think, "Are we talking about a man or a 2 year old?!"
What happened to chivalry and “children and women first”?
Down with the Patriarchy !
Yes!
Down with evenagelical Churches
The only time I draped anything on my shoulders it was a towel and in my mind it was a cape and I was Superman. I've never opened a wedding planning magazine in my life and I'm over 60.
Also 60+ and i preferred wearing my grandmother's old fur stole and a paper crown pretending I was the Queen, never fantasized about being a bride, not even a royal one.
I don't even know the names of the leading bridal magazine publishers of the '970s and '980s.
Exactly what I was thinking. 😂
Me neither I'm 54
I am 56 and I only remembering one time playing a wedding scene. It was a group of us. Honestly I don’t think I even thought about getting married. It was the adults around me that were obsessed with talking about getting married with children. Why??? Looking back, it appears that Christianity and religion really stunted the maturity of the adults in my life.
That pastor obviously thinks women are a joke, not partners to be cherished.
He's the kind of man my one aunt would say "needs a whack with a cast iron skillet".
People are not tp be cherished, in his mind... And women are not even people to that culture, to some extent. Glad i escaped.
@@Plethorality in that culture, they're glorified maids and their mommy replacements they get to sleep with. They're property not partners. That's why they're obsessed with their daughters because when she hits 13 the cognitive dissonance becomes too much for these guys to bear.
I'm a woman and I've never met any girls/women who said they got wedding magazines as a kid or wore a towel or blanket to pretend to be a bride. That sounds weird as hell.
I haven’t either.
i've never done this either and i don't know anyone who did.
It’s weird because it’s all in his mind. 😂
I remember this when I was a kid in the 60s but I've never seen it in the past 40 years.
I was a tomboy climbing trees.
Marital rape was only criminalised in The UK in 1991.
That predates the US, sadly.
I thought the UK would be more proactive about treating sexually based offences as the especially heinous types of crimes they are than that.
Decriminalized, I hope.
@@dominicfucinari1942unfortunately, with the way that governance is established in the UK, England still runs roughshod over everyone else in the "United" kingdom, with that often including extremely long delays in recognizing the humanity of others. (To be clear, this also includes that amongst the English populace itself there is far more range in views and support for changing things than their legislative bodies would suggest)
1993 here in the good ol' US of A.
I'm 50 and I'm coming up on the 20 year marriage mark. I never thought about marriage or weddings when I was a kid. I never got a Bridal magazine until a year before marriage, I never wore a blanket as a dress or a towel as a veil. Never. I wanted to be "Wonder Woman" or another female superhero that was popular at the time. His "joke" only makes sense with the worldview that women and men have very rigid gender roles. Instead of the wedding being seen as theirs, since they are both getting married, he acts like he isn't really part of it. And women don't enjoy sex, so this is "for" the man. So again, sex isn't a 2 party thing, it's not theirs. So sick. This is why expecting equality is so important. Otherwise people literally cannot have healthy relationships.
My heart goes out to Mrs. Howerton and all the assorted Howerton daughters, nieces, and future granddaughters.
And all of his church members, too.
Don't forget his many mistresses too!! 😂😂
For every woman or girl Howerton has a predatory eye on, there are easily 50 predatory eyes on him.
Certainly a concern, but also, the little boys in the family who have to observe the objectification of their mom, or worse. Objectification combined with “spare the rod, spoil the child,” and all the other countless messages of violence and vengeance in the Bible, can easily lead to family violence. The term “family violence” is a term that might be a more effective change agent in these circles because consciously or not, they think of women and girls as subordinate, second class, etc. Using this term serves to remind them that their little boys are deeply affected by this way of thinking and behaving as well.
@@celesterosales8976 I can't stand Psalm One-Hundred-Thirty-Nine By Nineteeners. Pentecostal Dominionists as embodied by No Greater Joy Ministries are even worse!
patriarchal culture. He too has been looking at magazines since he was 14.
In what sense is "do what she says" patriarchal?
And to think this advice is a golden nugget, he still is. As my grandmother would say "wrapping a piece of sh-t in gold foil does NOT make it Godiva.. it's still sh-t"
@@EricRedekopGuess what, women! You get one day to be the boss, and enjoy the fantasy. Then, you're property, for the rest of your life.
That's the patriarchal part.
Spot on 🍀🍀🍀
@@EricRedekop because is only for one day.. and he gets what wants from the wedding night ON because you know these preachers commands that the woman submits to the MEN once the ring is on her finger. THAT'S how it's patriarchal.
If they are both virgins, I'd expect that "wedding night" to last about five minutes. Best wishes to the new couple.
a less than 2 pump chump.
I full-body-cringe at the thought. Five freaking minutes probably means that the experience was dry and unnecessarily painful for her. 😢
And she’ll be crying and feel 🍇-ed.
@@dawnkindnesscountsmost5991real women are never dry
@@James-hd4ms💀
So God can manipulate a football game from prayer but can’t stop a man from spousal abuse.
Funny how god's priorities run., huh? 😮
Oh, you've got it totally wrong. God's in favour of spousal abuse. Gotta keep that beetch in line somehow!
The whole concept of prayer is baffling to me, but it does seem that god is only able to do tiny, insignificant things that might have happened anyway. So much for his infinite power.
@@lil-al “That's what prayers are... it's frightened people trying to make friends with the bully!”
― Terry Pratchett, The Last Hero
As a Christian woman, I notice that many Christian men don't pay attention to the scripture that says men are to love their wives as Christ loves the church. That means her feelings are valid, and she is to be treated with utmost respect and compassion, not like a prostitute. Men are equally supposed to submit to their wives as the wives to the husband, and that doesn't just mean sexually, but emotionally and mentally for the good of both.
Read again. The bible also clearly states women are lesser than men, the bible is bad
Yep. It’s supposed to be mutual. People just cherry pick verses instead of read the entire passage in context.
It's funny how you're ignoring all the verses that specifically list women as property. That you were worshiping a G0d that says that you are property. It's really funny how you are choosing to ignore that.
@@toritori5835cherry picking like she's doing right now and ignoring the verses that specifically say that she is property and somehow thinks it's acceptable to worship a God that says she's property????
No men are not too equally submit to their wives. They are the head that is what it says. You are just cherry-picking to try to make your terrible God sound better
The few evangelical American and Canadians I worked with in the UK, all believed their only value is as wife and mother. One of these friends got in a really abusive relationship here and she still planned on marrying this dude. We had to stage a Christian intervention with my Minister to make her realise that she was about to throw her life away.
The dude believed that he has the right to hit his wife and future children and that he has the last word in all decisions, which is so backward.
"why are you so sensitive, it's just a joke!"
The joke: *_sexism_*
The energy was very: just kidding (not kidding)
As a survivor of narcissistic parents "why are you so sensitive?" is an immediate red flag.
@@MarcillaSmith I didn't mean you. 😊
One day in heaven, Moses and Jesus were chatting while strolling along the shore of a lake. The lake reminded Moses of the time god parted the Red Sea, and he told Jesus the story. Jesus nodded and said that story reminded him of the time he walked on water.
Moses was suitably impressed, and asked Jesus if he could demonstrate that ability. They walked to the end of the dock, and Jesus stepped onto the water and immediately sank beneath the surface. Sputtering as he pulled himself back onto the dock, he said he must have gotten rusty and said he'd try again.
Again Jesus sank beneath the water. When he pulled himself back onto the dock, he said he can't understand it, he walked on water before.
Moses looked at him and said "I know what the problem is! You didn't have holes in your feet the last time!".
If this offends any Christians, why are you so sensitive, it's just a joke!
@@cnault3244 Especially relevant after the recent Christ-on-a-stick holiday. Just a joke folks!
Another reason why TEXAS only has a "ONE-STAR" rating on their State Flag.😅
LOL. best. comment. I've heard all day!
I'm stealing that line.
😂😂😂
Holy crap! That's a good one....😂😂😂
As a resident, can confirm. I hate it here. I'm staying to vote these types of a$$h9les OUT.
Comments like that are never free. They cost you your humanity.
Oof
This is repugnant. It never once occurred to me to imagine planning a wedding until 3 months before my own marriage (at nearly 36yo). Same with the dress. My younger life didn’t revolve around imagining my wedding day, and it doesn’t now revolve around recalling it. And hee hee ha ha, the woman gets her way as an expert on what to wear and how to act in a wedding, so of course the husband gets his way no matter what that night in bed - he’s the only one who cares about sex and only he gets to enjoy it. Her role is to obey. Disgusting and insulting to all. On many levels.
Having no say what is done to your inexperienced body is a stark difference to having no say in where to stand during a festival.
I don't know how the word of Jesus have been twisted to this bunch of misogynist bs.
How in hell do you screw up communicating, "Be Excellent to One Another" ?
Exactly! A couple of goofball dudes understood that message in San Dimas, California in the righteous year of 1988.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Equating "stand there in this suit" and "I will invade you in any which way I want regardless of your pain, discomfort, mental anguish etc etc" is abhorrent. Unfortunately, it happens and is duly sanctioned by those from whom you expect wisdom.
Station! @@capt.bart.roberts4975
@@capt.bart.roberts4975 because there is no "be excellent to one another" in the bible
There is NO consent in right-wing evangelical sex-obsessed culture.
It is a sex cult
I am not sure I have ever seen any mention in the Bible that refers to male viginity, nor have I ever heard it mentioned in church. Since male heads of households in biblical times were considered property owners, and the livestock, women and children were considered property, a commodity, the male does not "lose value" if he engages in sex, and is not a virgin. It simply doesn't matter as far as the transaction goes.
From what I recall, the focus on virginity in the bible, seems to hinge on who's having which children, more than the act of sex.
When the bible requires a rapist to marry his victim, that paints a picture of where priorities are.
Even the infamous test for infidelity, giving the woman an abortion concoction, focuses on the pregnancy more than the sex.
I definitely agree that male and female and male standards differed greatly. The famous Jesus line to the Pharisees, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", had the adulterous woman there for punishment, and the man nowhere in sight.
And did you catch the implication about which sin? In the context, I'd say the implication that the Pharisees were getting side action, is significant.
Which is why purity culture should've been written off as a relic of a time when paternity tests didn't exist.
EXACTLY.. Virginity is only applied to WOMEN in the bible. There is NO word in Hebrew for "virgin male"; only for women as it's about value and such... the bible stating that if a man rapes a virgin has to pay the FATHER 50 for her now being damaged goods.
@@stevewebber707 The arguments the Pharisees allegedly bring to Jesus would NEVER have happened. For starters, there is no case here..where is the husband.. if she's committing "adultery" she had to have a husband. so where is he? Who caught them in the act? Where's the guy that she had sex with? Did someone warn them? Was she committing adultery or was she raped or was she a prostitute? According to the Torah BOTH had to be brought forth. Second.... the Jews lost all ability to try ANY try any capital cases and this is not really a capital case, Third, who the hell is Jesus? He wasn't on any court, he's not a Torah-scholar or even a lower court judge. Fourth, the Pharisees would NOT be engaged in "side action".. that's just an Anti-Semitic, Xian Jew hating slur. IF anything the Pharisees would not be involved in this.. now the Sadducees on the other hand would have had an issue. Again, these vignettes are bogus on so many levels in attempt to smear the Pharisees and Jews as being legalistic when the REALITY of the situation was that Pharisees (Especially under Hillel and later Rav Gamliel I who was Hillel's grandson) were far more sensitive given the atrocities Rome and their thugs were doing against people, including women.
@@dominicfucinari1942 Yes. It's interesting that 'purity culture' didn't exist and still doesn't exist in cultures that are matrilineal. If inheritance of land, status, or family connection is traced through the mother - whose identity can be proven - then suddenly purity culture is pointless.
On my wife any my wedding night we were so wiped out and hungry, we ordered room service, kinda fooled around and went to sleep.
Time well-spent.
It was a good evening. We had “saved” ourselves but that night neither of us were up for to much.
Yep, us too. Got a really nice room with an in-room hot tub. Made eyes at one another, looked at the nice fluffy bed, sat down on that bed, made eyes at one another, and promptly fell asleep! 😂
That was exacty us too. Had the honeymoon suite with the hot tub. Just too burned out on the wedding night to enjoy it and didn’t expect anything from each other.
We spent our after party night watching TV, drinking champagne, and treating my very bad sunburn.
Unfortunately, Southern women my age were brought up to dream about our weddings. I married the first time at 33 to someone who was not good for me. I was an old maid. I just remarried at age 55. I am very happy.
Congratulations on your current happy life!
Congratulations.
Make no mistake…this was not a joke
I did not spend my life planning my wedding. Originally I had no plan to mary anyone.
Yuck!
I'm a woman and I didn't grow up dreaming of my future wedding, I actually disliked the idea of getting married. What this guy is saying is such a cliché.
A joke like this is part of the reason why I struggle to understand women can enjoy sex. Sex isn’t just a thing for men, both people enjoy it
I'm so sorry that toxic culture like this led you to believe something that is hurtful to you. It's really hurtful to both partners. Women are made to enjoy sex, just like men are. Our genitals are made of the same tissue in the womb. Women just don't enjoy sex with partners who treat our bodies as a thing to be used.
There’s entire sects of religion that believe that a woman taking pleasure in sex is sinful
Oh, women can enjoy sex, alright! I've dated a Goth woman! 'Nuff said!
I'm gonna blow your mind: women can enjoy sex *without a man even being present* it's called being a lesbian
Source: I'm an adult lesbian who has enjoyed enthusiastic, consensual sexual encounters w other women.
Why is that pastor dressed like the guy sitting outside a convenience store who offers minors a beer and a ride in his van?
Ummm, maybe 'cos he sits in his van outside convenience stores offering ..... ?? (Subconsciously you've seen him somewhere .... or someone who looked very like him ... betcha!)
Because he IS.. he's a Youth Music Minister... and "Leading them Jesus" is sick code for something else. As evidenced by the 2000 SA cases against the Southern Baptist Church
This is the new style at a lot of fundie churches, in an effort to be cool.
@@lorrilewis2178 Well, he really missed the mark with his "advice/joke".
@@lorrilewis2178 If they want to be cool, turn feminist and LGBT-friendly!
“Acts, chapter 1” is a how-to manual? Sex education?
Since he’s supposed to be a virgin,how does he know anything about where she should stand, what she should do, et al?
He's never been with a woman, I assure you😂
The open your bible to Acts, was a way to segue away from the sex joke. It wasn't part of the joke.
My Agikuyu tribe culture there sex school before marriage tought by experienced women and men,what to do in bed,and with that there was sacrifice for goats as payment for young men to play with older girls breasts 😮,
I thinks these Abrahamic religions throwing virgins in bed to discovery mission have made young people go out of marriage happiness 😊,
This is the fruit of "every man's battle" (book in evangelical christian circles) porn culture. He's a "technical virgin" with a lot of knowledge and she's expected to know absolutely nothing about reproductive at all, even how her own body works. This is why some people are starting to say "Purity culture is rape culture."
Well, I guess that if she just has to "stand there", it will be a very boring wedding night.
I am totally offended at being stereotyped as if my life dream was to be married. I knew it wasn't a panacea of joy from the insight gained doing a lot of babysitting as a teen. Many women have far greater plans for themselves.
You're offended by this douche? Please.. he's not worth the energy of a fart. These guys implode faster than a souffle at the first slammed door---when the wife finally has enough of his misogynistic b.s. and leaves.
They are weird, creepy and living on a different planet. A Wise Person once said, if your ideas are so wonderful, why are you continually trying to force people to follow them?
I mean...the implication of the """joke""" is literally spelled out in the bible. Women have no agency in a relationship, especially when it comes to "wedding night" activities.
Actually, according to this pastor….women have zero agency the wedding night. She’s his slave, according to this disgusting pastor.
Patriarchy, thy name is Christian church.
Muslim mosques… (ex-Muslim)
Abrahamic religions
Patriarchy is much, much older than any of the current religions. It began as soon as one dude decided that he wanted to make sure that it was HIS kids that got his status, his land, his hunting territory. Matrilineal cultures - cultures where land/status/family are inherited through the mother, have little or no patriarchy. Weirdly, they are also not matriarchal. Men have power and a voice, it's just that it's equal to women's.
Abraham.
Actually the joke was letting a mere woman have responsibilities and take charge. So UN-biblical it must be a joke.
So he's hiding behind "It's a joke", and doesn't realize that jokes only land when they reflect a common attitude, for good or ill. It's also plain he thinks there's truth in his little story. You can see that plainly.
Thank you! I hate it when my pastor makes a joke and then gives the “it’s just a joke “ line. This puts into words quite articulately why it bothers me so much.
@@BethWStamps exactly. When they say it's just a joke, they're admitting they know something's wrong.
He can’t admit that there’s anything to apologize for, because that would require an acknowledgement of how important consent is within the bedroom.
What he said makes me want to cry and also vomit
It's good thing his nugget was free, if he was a paid comedian I would want a refund. For most of us it was a boring sexist joke, but for his evangelical mob it was probably PG or even X rated.
Good thing?! It was not free! It cost me half my sanity.
@@jamielee7404 ROFL! Thank you! But imagine listening to that every week...
My late grandmother said "wrapping a piece of sh-t in gold foil doesn't make it Godiva .. it's still sh-t.. neither is chilled piss in a champagne glass Cristal"
Yeah most everyone I know who's gotten married has said that they didn't have sex on their wedding night because, for one, it wasn't the first time. They'd been together for years.
And all of them talked about how they'd spent months on planning and a lot of money on food and alcohol and so they wanted to actually get to enjoy it so at the end of the night you're exhausted, usually quite drunk, and often stuffed from all the rich reception food and since it isn't the first time and you're about to go on a 2 week romantic vacation together...they don't see any point in putting pressure on doing it that exact night.
very inappropriate religion destroyed his filter
Ewwww. Such gross sexism. Ewwwww
Ewww is right.
I also watched a lot of Disney and was very disappointed when I grew up to find out that birds and mice aren't going to help me keep my house clean.
When my son was five and six years old, he wore a Spider-Man costume for two years. I had to replace it when he outgrew it and I had to peel it off him wash it and give it right back.
Just because we act through things doesn't mean that we don't want to have bodily autonomy or that we should be the only ones planning the wedding.
I get so tired of the "it's just a joke" excuse.
It was also "just a sermon". So I guess we need to normalize not taking seriously what is said in a sermon now.
Jokes are made during sermons as well 😒 and the "It's just a joke" excuse, isn't always an excuse 🤔 Some time it really is "just a joke". It's all about one interpretation based on their subjectivity. I may interpret it as a joke while you may interpret it as something else. You take any joke throughout history, and you will find someone who may interpret it NOT to be a joke. It's all about our subjective interpretations of said joke.
@@nafrayu9832 Indeed, jokes are subjective, and can be received in very different interpretations. Just like, I don't know, sermons?!?
The pastor had a chance to clarify his position when he was called out. "It's just a joke", clarifies nothing. At best, it's dodging the issue. And as I mentioned, if he's going to play the "don't take my jokes seriously" card, I think it entirely fair to not take his sermons seriously either.
And I'll add, it was a joke included in his sermon, so you tell me, is he deliberately padding his sermon with nonsense that shouldn't be taken seriously?
I don't care if it was a joke. What I care about is what he meant, and what it revealed about his beliefs and attitudes. Not to mention what messages he wants to send to his congregation.
@@stevewebber707 Yes he could have clarified himself better when asked about it but even without an in-depth explanation, you are still left with your subjective assumptions as to what you BELIEVE he meant. It's like people feel as if just because he didn't clarify it to their liking, it must mean that he meant it the way that they interpreted it.
I hate religion and I truly don't believe that anyone should be taken religion seriously so I honestly don't care if no one takes him or his sermons seriously. My only issue is this growing outrage and clutching of the pearls that so many have over any and every joke that someone interprets as being insensitive or somehow harmful.
Maybe he is padding nonsense that shouldn't be taken seriously 😒 it wouldn't surprise me in the least really. I was just pointing out that pastors have been known to incorporate humor into their sermons, its not that uncommon.
You don't care if it was a joke, only what he meant and what it reveals about his beliefs and attitude and what message he wants to send to his congregation but that is my point, without him explicitly clarifying it, you are left entirely with assumptions based on your subjective interpretation.
Maybe he meant everything that you believe, or maybe he didn't and it was an honest joke with no nefarious agenda behind it. I don't know, but what I do know is that people shouldn't be making such accusations as if they are facts without sufficient evidence to back it up 😕
@@nafrayu9832 Tell me, what accusations did I make?
I have beliefs about what he meant, which certainly aren't perfect. Though I think his appreciation for, and enthusiasm for that joke, sends a fairly clear message.
The vagueness is actually a good part of the problem, and a significant part of my problem with Christianity and the bible.
He is a a pastor, with the job of clearly communicating lessons to his congregation. If he is comfortable with leaving lessons as vague implications, I don't think he has much room to complain if I make some inferences about those implications.
And I will clarify, one reason I dislike this "just a joke" claim, is the implication that the joke had no meaning or substance. If the joke means something, it is not "just" a joke. And while there is some humor that doesn't convey information, I don't think that applicable here.
As far as I am concerned, the better forms of humor, can have all sorts of messages and meaning.
I see zero reason, that I should not evaluate something that someone says, just because there is a humorous element involved in it.
Exactly! And yet isn't it ironic that when called out on it, they claim "persecution"? Really? You basically approve of marital rape and you want to play the VICTIM when someone calls you out? These guys are the worst.
xtian culture views a wedding day as a transference of human property. Before the vows the officiant asks, 'who gives this woman'. They view a marriage certificate as ownership papers and is why they view marital sex as the 'right' of the husband and admonish wives not to EVER refuse.
The unfortunate thing that might be true, about "all women being the same all wanting a weeding", is that a lot of us raised in church, that is the sad truth, you are told your main goal is to get a man to marry you. you are drilled that in every family reunion, every birthday, every family marriage, since you are 5 because youll be flower girl in some wedding and someone will mention aw she is going to look so cute when grows up and dress like this for her own wedding. So women are all different but when you are IN THERE you need to be exactly the same, because the alternative will get you in a lot trouble.
These attitudes were standard in my youth, some 70 years ago. But times were changing, and so did I, mostly enlightened by the realizations of marriage. I became a feminist in1972, and a charter subscriber to Ms. Magazine.
I was one of the girls who got in trouble for showing little to no interest in getting married when it wasn’t outright repulsion. I was told I wasn’t a real girl when my response to those sort of questions was a shrug or “ask me again when I’m grown up.” Or making a face. To which I’d get ridiculed because “you’re not a boy Chocobo, this is what your whole life is about!”
This was in the late 90’s early odds.
Turned out I’m both sex and romance repulsed AroAce.
@Chocobo0Scribe I am aroace too. Luckily my family did not criticize me for not getting married and having children
Yes! That is exactly what happens. Girls are taught from an early age that they are to become wives and mothers and nothing more. A woman who is single into her 20s is looked at as having something wrong with her. Most of my Christian female friends got married right out of high school. Now many are divorced with no education or job skills.
@@philyra2 one of my funnier no filter reactions was “no I have to wait til I’m 30. I’ll be done with graduate school and have my own company” then when I was told “no your husband has to do that.” I said “then I’ll be the husband!” Then I later found out I am very masculine presenting. Also the girls at the Christian school I went to either all got married right out of high school and got suckered into an MLM
As for people in the congregation thinking it was funny ( mentioned at 9:35) - they were in church, a place where independent thought is not intended and discouraged. The entire point of group mindset religion is for people NOT to think for themselves. So yes, they laughed because they were in the group mindset setting where they all agree simply "because".
I listen to a lot of Independent Fundamentalist Baptist services, and this sort of crap, as well as a lot of "women, amirite, guys?" humor is pretty common in the preaching.
This is not a scandal. Just a pastor being chauvinistic, which is pretty par for the course
The backlash he got is the story. Did you not watch the video?
Are you defending all Christian pastors? Millions of us aren't remotely interested in what's going on in churches
Yeah? And? Friendly Atheist isn't just about large scandals. He's also all about making the case that Christinity is incredibly sexist - very patriarchal and anti-woman in small ways. That may seem innocuous to people like you, but it absolutely is not, evidenced by the backlash to the video. And things like this set up the conditions where they can do the scandalous things and often get away with them.
You should watch this video again and you'll hear him say words to this effect, that it's not the biggest deal compared to the really nasty things they do, but is still important to talk about because it's still damaging to women. You might learn that us women know that a death by a thousand tiny cuts still means we're dead.
Exactly.
It is not ok. If a woman had done this she would be thrown out of the church
The guy was planning his wedding night his whole life? Doesn’t that constitute a thought-crime in Christianity?
My mom told me to never deny my husband. My husband is absolutely disgusted by that idea. He would never ever so something I wasn't wanting to do.
I got a feeling in the home his wife also does everything in the house. Aye aye aye. The only pastor I've ever heard talk that I actually thought was funny was Joyce Meyer. And it was just once. She made a joke about trying to avoid someone in your house and it was hysterical. Otherwise I think pastors trying to be funny is just really cringy
Don't pity her for a second. You'd have to be an awful person to marry a person like this.
@@Yosef9438 or just extremely naive. And that's how the church crowd likes their women
He needs to work on his "jokes" a bit more, learn how things work nowadays.
I think mothers used to tell their daughters... act like you're enjoying it.
There was a not completely dissimilar joke, the punchline to which was “… lie back and think of England.” And another one that went “ … I think I’ll paint the ceiling beige…”
Women’s pleasure was certainly never the point.
@@DawnDavidson Or if you're a Communist... lie back and think of Marx.
I was told you had to pretend you where in a field far away and not look.
Considering their idolisation of sex, there must be about a 100% disappointment rate.
Melanie Hammlett has a number of videos about how men's jokes aren't jokes. Don't give any of those guys the benefit of the doubt
Ignorant and Gross and abuse. Thats all that needs to be said.
And the ridiculous thing is that they will consider all future children from their sexual encounter to be "gifts from God."
I kept waiting for the “joke”……WHAT?
You seem to miss the percentage of men who have been planning their wedding for at least ten years despite the fact that they're not engaged. He even more so dismisses that reality.
Just as he dismisses the reality that there are a lot of women who think about their "first time" for a long time before they get married.
It's so disturbing that that mindset is still so prevalent in this day and age
It is exactly what I suspected it was gonna be.
Yep, I knew immediately, lol.
I wouldn't even give him a partial pass for "not meaning what you're probably thinking" with that "punch line".
Think of the guy who recently said that if he were on a jury, he would automatically declare that the man was not guilty of rape if the victim had been wearing shorts.
These people have some very strange ideas and some attitudes that are right out of the dark ages.
What do you call 100 evangelical pastors at the bottom of the sea? A good start. What? It's a joke.
That's a great joke! I'm going to send it to Howerton.
"This is I guess what's known in evangelical circles as 'humour', and what's known outside evangelical circles as 'the reason we left church'".
Pretty tame compared to a lot of stuff evangelicals say and do every day with a straight face.
True.. but this is the ground floor of how the most heinous of ideologies and such get started... with a "joke".. just like it started with harmless drawings, caricatures and jokes about Blacks and Jews.. next thing you know, you have men in uniforms and orders dealing with the "undesirables" and "threats to our women and children".
I am an exvangelical, ecumenical catholic (universal Christian) humanist and I am SO thankful for people like you and Sheila who call out these people and their complete bullshit. I too am recovering from years of abuse and trauma. I remember being a little kid and feeling like I had more rights and freedoms than women in the church.
I feel like people just don't even consider rape to happen outside of very specific situations.
It also depends on phrasing. They did a survey where they asked about 800 college age men if they would r--- someone and 96% said no. Then they asked if they would ever force someone to have sex with them. 72% were okay with that. And when "force" was substituted with "coerce" the number went up to 80% or so. I just about threw up when I read it. It's all semantics. The second you give a dude a way to rationalize his violence, it's all fair game to him.
What he said is extremely triggering for SA survivors. Which is 1 out of 4 women in the US. Pastor has no empathy. Im sure there were many in his audience. And another thing..when i went to church..I NEVER heard a sermon about SA and how men can keep women and children safe
Free advice is worth just what you pay for it. Especially from Christian preachers.
How am I not shocked this happened in Texas? Omg...
So she gets what she wants (her dream wedding) and because of that he gets what he wants on the wedding night. Wow, just WOW!
I hate this so much....
The congregation only laughed cause they were embarrassed. Not cause they thought the pastor was funny.
I don't remember my sister ever playing "wedding day" when we were kids in the seventies, but she did orchestrate a nuptial event for our two male cats. I was a little pissed that one of my boys had to wear the dress she'd crafted, but she let me play the pastor, so I let it go. (Oh, I'm pretty sure our whole house heard each one definitely not being virgins out behind the garage in the middle of the night on many occasions well before they tied the knot.) FYI, that was basically my entire sex education before leaving that christian home at nineteen.
An actual interesting sermon could come out of him then immediately deconstructing the joke-
-of course, many women are more excited about the marriage than just the wedding
-of course, the wedding is a core shared experience
-of course, he should be participating fully in making decisions about the wedding
-of course, certain elements may need to be discussed and negotiated, because obviously his comfort matters, as hers does
And so, too, on the wedding night, X, Y, Z.
Except, btw guys, you might both just be super tired after a really intense day, so you also might want to agree to give each other grace if things don't go smoothly that first night. After all, you have a rehearsal for the wedding ceremony, but of course there's no rehearsal for the wedding night!
This belief they have doesn't end with the wedding.
There's no reason to get married
If signing a piece of paper is the most romantic thing your partner can do for you
You better check your priorities
There are no benefits from it regardless of what people tell you.
It assumes that she hasn't also dreamed about her wedding night...
I never spent my whole life planning my wedding day. Seriously!!
Raised by definitely non-fundamentalist, but evangelical Christian parents, with Dad and his Dad both having been pastors, before leaving that vocation, I will share a story that Dad told me his mother had shared with him in confidence. Granddad and grandma, were both proudly ignorant about sex on their wedding night. They had been secretly married with help from his soon to be mother-in-law, who feared they were getting too close and took them to a pastor's home. I was witness to similar arrangements during my Dad's time as a pastor in the 1950s, though usually after a dalliance had induced the prospect of progeny.
Because of this low key wedding, stress of the day was not particularly at issue. The two discussed the matter for a while, and reached the conclusion that they both had seen dogs do it. A more formal wedding was had once they graduated from the Art School where they had met. Victorian mores were still in effect in 1906 and a curtain hung between the women and the men during study drawings of nude subjects. So at least they were aware of the differences.
Isn’t that nice of the guys to let the little woman tell them where to stand during the ceremony? How benevolent. How big of them.
I’ve literally never dreamed about my wedding.
And when I did get married, I focused on the honeymoon because planning & paying for a wedding is just way too much
telling a hypothetical new bride to “do what he tells you to do” on her wedding night.
*Paint the den.*
I didn't plan my wedding my entire life.
I was interested in my education then the house I wanted to buy.
Marriage was serious, not something lightly entered or rushed into.
Submissive means subservient in these circles.
14, playing dress up? Not even in simpler times. That was the first age marriage ever crossed my mind, but that was because I had my first boyfriend at that age. And it was a fleeting thought, pushed to the back by living in the present and planning my future independence from my parents. I thought I would get a job, move out, and have my own place before considering marriage. Lol
Excellent video calling out this pastor and his views about women.💖
This "pastor" probably takes the metaphor "shepherd of his flock" literally - "his" followers are sheep and need his direction.
2:25 Pastor literally gives off Cool Youth Pastor vibes. Also sadly yes, it seems many girls in conservative culture are taught that their biggest goal IS to get married, that this will be their MOST IMPORTANT DAY whereas guys are often taught their biggest day will be graduation or getting their first real job and such. I remember asking my Christian sister and her now husband (Also Christian, from halfway across the world ie raised in a different church community) if this matched their experience of how they'd grown up and they found themselves relating to this whole-heartedly. They have a healthy relationship so he was comfortable to admit in front of her that his "biggest day" was exactly as I'd described whereas hers was the wedding day.
If he's married I wonder if this is how he treats his wife. So inappropriate he is 🙄
That creepy giggle is nasty.
Yep. Whole three minutes of 'ugh', just like in 1950. 👍💙💙💙🥰✌
My friend, an incredible make-up artist who took pride in design and aesthetics, it turned out had different ideas of her dream wedding to her now-husband, but she is a caring person and they have a great relationship and didn't let conservative Christianity ruin or dictate their relationship, so she didn't demand they adhere to her design ideals because she knew it was his wedding too!
So they came up with beautiful decor and theme that worked for both of them! He got to wear his gold suit just as he'd wanted to! (Initially "gold suit" sounded awful to me though I kept that to myself, but it actually looked geat! It was kind of muted/darker metallic suit not garish and bright, and it actually blended really beautifully with his groomsmen, who wore slightly dark greenish-gold metallic suits. And she got to wear her white-and-cream-coloured wedding dress!
It looked amazing - perfect for a wedding but the kind of suit that people into "conventional" conservative fashions would only ever wear at their wedding and not re-use as it'd be "too flashy" for anything else! Of course, I'm queer and no longer in those circles so I wouldn't fear the "scandal" of going out in a suit like that anymore! 🤣 It's weird thinking back to what used to be significant to me in conservative culture!)
My Dad is a retired southern Baptist pastor. It was very clear at a young age that I wasn't planning to be someone's wife. My Aunt was single and I wanted to be a free independent woman like her. I never pretended a wedding...I was interviewing myself in the bathroom mirror...or was acting out elaborate plays I made up in my head. I am now 45 and just last year when I went to church for my dad's retirement...I was asked no less than 6 times when I was going to settle down with a man and have babies...I was like well I have been with someone for 45 years now and her and I are very happy...I think I'm the one for me!!!! That mind set is infuriating.
Before this job, Josh used to lead The Bridge church in a Nashville suburb. Many “non denominational” churches are Southern Baptists that wear jeans and use modern style worship music.
If you want to find the root cause, go to the doctrines of the SBC. They’ve done a decent job recently in obscuring their denomination to rope in generally less fundamentalist Christians. The area his former church is in is so saturated with churches, membership is almost always a result of “sheep swapping” (existing Christians changing churches over small personal items).
To his defense, this culture around women is the SBC in action, so I’m not shocked that he’d find it appropriate to share on Sunday.
3:00 Disagree, this is a common stereotype and not just in Christian circles, look at Monica and Chandler in Friends for example, and this wasn't simply a show made by men.
yea , it bother me so much to see that even people outside were peddling that stereotype "women marriage crazy" EVEN SEX AND THE CITY the entire goal of Carrie was to marry Mr Big no matter how he treated her, she might had a career and other "lovers" but that meant nothing because the happy ever after was marry that dude. The pressure to marry is always there.
Yes. It is totally cultural brainwashing.
The thing that got me with Bridezilla show was how the wedding itself became the expression of the identity and value of the bride. Who she was a person, as a partner, everything else, was subsumed by the dream of the wedding. And the “joke” reinforces the excesses as being normal. It’s okay, he implies, because this is the most important thing a woman can aspire to, which is weird considering they all want women to be happy little breeders.
And society does still expect and push the “bride” role as a cultural norm. A guy can be a “confirmed bachelor”, but a woman is still an “old maid” or “spinster” if she rejects the marriage idea. The man makes a choice, whereas the woman is obviously damaged or undesirable. Girls are trained to fear that state, in both overt and subtle ways.
And here I thought that Christians were supposed to even abstain from the APPEARANCE of evil.
When I still went to church, there was an older pastor who seemed to love making fun of his wife. All the stories he ever told, seemed designed to make her look stupid and highlight him as the intelligent one who could solve every problem his wife created. Because all their problems were obviously her fault.