Moneyball | Canadian First Time Watching | Movie Reaction | Movie Review | Movie Commentary
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Simone & George are reacting to Moneyball for the first time! Canadians React!
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00:00 - Intro
01:35 - Moneyball
34:45 - Discussion
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Art Howe, the manager, in reality was wholly on board with the experiment. The version in the film is entirely a fiction to add some direct resistance for Bean to overcome.
Exactly. I hated how they villainized Howe and ignore the elite pitching staff and Tejada
Yes, it is important to understand this is a very "dramatized" version of the real story which trades accuracy for more drama.
Well, American style of "based on a true story... ho but real names person didn't act AT ALL like in this version. It's still based on a true story, except it's a lie".
@@LuckySmurfOne of the major issues is the term "moneyball" came to mean "never steal, take a lot of pitches, draw a lot of walks, hit home runs." And that's the way a lot of executives and media members viewed it. But that was never what moneyball was, which the book makes clear. Hell, Earl Weaver used to say 'pitching and the three run homer" and "if you play for one run, that's all you'll get" back in the 70's.
What moneyball meant was finding inefficiencies in the baseball market, ie undervalued assets. If speed was undervalued, the A's would have looked for that instead (and in fact speed has become undervalued now and Beane has started to put together speed and defense teams instead.
And the pitching was a big part of that. Because Beane and a few others (notably Dave Dombrowski) noted that college pitchers were undervalued. The conventional thinking was college pitchers were older and had lower ceilings. Zito, Mulder, and Hudson were all college arms (as was Verlander for Detroit later). That was just another example of finding undervalued assets.
Mightve been on board, but if the experiment was a major failure, would the stakes have been the same?
I highly recommend following this up with The Big Short if you haven’t already. Brad Pitt has a smaller role in it. But Steve Carrell and Christian Bale steal the show.
I think Margot Robbie steals the show
@@ZenzeroCAM I think you steal the show
Yes, please. I don't know why these two movies remind me of each other. Maybe because they both take topics that you might not have any interest in and make them fascinating.
@@davecalvin5105 same director
@@davecalvin5105 Both are based on Michael Lewis books.
Not sure you caught it near the end, but its pretty important because it ties back into the flashbacks of him trying to make it as a player. He made a decision once for money rather than what he felt was best in his heart and he regretted it. And he swore he wouldn't ever do that again. Sort of the significance of him turning down the money at the end and the whole dialogue about its not about the money but what it means, that you are worth it. Great ending.
Never thought about it that way!
This and its important to think of the metaphor pitt and jonah hill are discussing at the end, which is “he’s already hit a home run, but just hasnt realized it”. Oakland has everything he wants: his family is nearby, his team/staff has finally bought in to the philosophy and like jonah hill says: “its not about the money its what the money says”, which is billys philosophy was right. No reason to start over now.
It was good for Boston he didn't take it as the guy Boston hired used a similar system and won them a world series only a few years after.
Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill were nominated for Academy Awards for this film. One of Jonah Hill's more sincere and understated roles
Everyone nailed it here, but Jonah definitely nailed an amalgam of characters.
"If he's a good hitter why doesn't he hit good?" Probably my favorite line and really sums up the statistics and logic vs the scouting intuition and intangibles. Absolutely love this movie!
My favorite trivia from the movie is that the line from that scene, "Ugly girlfriend means no confidence" was a real thing said by a scout at a similar meeting, except the original line was, "Ugly girlfiend means bad eyesight" and they only changed it because they thought no one would believe that it was realistic someone would say it.
Beane was offered $12.5M for 5 years in 2002, or $2.5M a year. He stayed at Oakland for $1M a year in order to stay near his daughter. He stayed in that position (at undisclosed rate salary extensions) until he moved up in position in 2015.
Beane is now a part owner of the As too.
@@tjosweelThe 2023 Oakland Athletics. That’s the real tragedy. 😭
The future Las Vegas A's.
As an Oakland fan... all my teams are dead 😭
@@motorcycleboy9000As a European, it's so utterly bizarre that teams can move like that. The only time someone tried it in the UK, the fans caused such a fuss that no one has dared do it again. Also, the fans started their own team in the lowest tier of English football, and worked their way up the divisions until they actually got higher up than the "old" team!
That's the reason, not enough fans buy tickets to games (whether they're affordable is another question). The Oakland A's average attendance in 2022 is 9,973 people in a stadium that holds 63,000 people.
Scott Hatteberg ended up reinventing his career as a first baseman, and had a few more successful seasons in Oakland and then Cincinnati before retiring.
The general manager runs the team and has final say on roster decisions (trades, releases, etc.). The Manager manages the team on the field, puts together lineups, manages all in-game decisions
In other words, the baseball manager (short for the obsolete term "field manager") is what most other North American sports call the head coach.
The President of Baseball Operations (who in some cases is the same person) is often the guy who runs the team and has final say on roster decisions. The GM usually has to figure out how to make that work.
The beauty of this movie is that you can know absolutely nothing about baseball and still be really entertained by it. This was a prime example of that.
That's because it's not about baseball really, it's about math
I agree. Like all sports movies and most movies in general, I think it's about people.
That’s most good sports movies. I don’t care about baseball or football or hockey but I will watch a heartwarming sports movie any day.
That's why this movie works and is good. Even non baseball fans will watch and dig this story. Everyone did a great job.
Just like Rocky
Hatteberg wasn’t afraid of hitting, he was afraid of fielding the ball at first because of his lack of experience at the position.
If Art Howe was on board, then why was Pena Traded? Unless that wasn't true.
@@daviddori7265 It's not that "it wasn't true"...George misunderstood the line because of his inexperience with the game, or simply misheard it...
"A baseball being HIT in my general direction" was the line he replied with to, when asked what his greatest fear was...23:45
which I can't believe as it is actually a pretty easy move from catcher to first base..he's afriad of having to make a throw maybe, but he'd pick up that position in no time
Hatteberg was the distillation of the entire moneyball concept. He could walk, he could hit, he got on base. That made him incredibly valuable in terms of projected wins per salary. So valuable that even if he was a below average defensive first baseman he was was still the right choice.
plus he'sd be replacing Giambi... who was no keith hernandez himself@@stt5v2002
The bit at the end when Jonah Hill plays the baseball clip to Brad Pitt, one of the most impactful cinematic moments I've ever seen. Epic.
Made all the better by the fact that the event Jonah Hill's character is showing Brad Pitt's actually happened.
My favourite part of the Jeremy Brown clip at the end is how the other team reacts. It's their 1st baseman who tells him to get up and pats his butt to send him around; and their second baseman waves him on to third. Such great sportsmanship.
That's because their still college & minor league players who still play for the love of the game & the big dream they aren't major league players that generally get corrupted by the fame the money & the what not when they do reach the big leagues.
Those numbers at the beginning were each teams salaries. Yankees were paying over 114 million to the guys on its roster while Oakland was paying theirs a fraction of that. Meaning the Yankees could afford star players whereas Oakland constantly had to scrounge. Hence the lack of parity in baseball usually
@@LuckySmurf Same old story with the A's. Hope that changes when they move to Vegas, but I am not holding my breath.
@@LuckySmurf oh of course it all comes down to a willingness to spend by owners, but these guys are rich for a reason and aren’t going to just throw money away either and some markets just can’t afford the top guys based on what the team generally brings in year to year, mind ya attendance and this revenue generally go up with a winning team and a winning team usually only happened when your willing to build the roster as such which of course means shelling out the dollars. Willingness or not there are teams that couldn’t compete with the steinbrenners even if they wanted. Location also plays a factor where a guy might get a offer for a higher salary from a smal market, but know he’ll make more in endorsements and such in a media giant like NY or LA. Who wants to play ball and live in Cleveland when you could be in NY or LA right? So much goes into it really
The top three teams in payroll (both New York teams and the Padres) owe their success this season to their spending.
@@jeffreydrozek-fitzwater4649 they went out of the way to prove that paying a ton of money doesnt guarantee you anything. The dodgers spend alot too but are a way better ran team than all those teams
@@TheAz943 You missed the joke.
Welcome to the world of "Written by Aaron Sorkin". George, you will probably enjoy more of his works as it is usually talented person doing their job extremely competently to overcome extreme obstacle. He's also really good at writing genuine characters.
I can't believe George doesn't love Sorkin already. Sorkin writes mostly "competence porn" in the way Ron Howard mostly directs it.
I still think about The West Wing daily and it's one of the few shows that I'll go back to watch again and again. I think of his writing like "What if the person doing this job wasn't a self serving idiot but actually cared about other people and they try to make the best choices that they can to improve things."
@@timothysugiura323 I watched The West Wing for the first time about 5 years ago and I loved it for about the first 4-5 seasons. About halfway through the 5th season I was just like... something is off. So I took a gander at the show's Wikipedia page and saw Sorkin left after the first 4 seasons. And it all made sense.
His characters are usually kind of smug and condescending towards others, which is the only thing I don't like about his writing. I get that it's a believable flaw, but it's just something that rubs me the wrong way. I know people like that in real life, and they are insufferable.
As an Englishman me and my friends have started calling Sorkin "American Shakespeare".
The social network, Steve jobs, and the trail of the Chicago 7 are brilliant films.
A few good men is iconic.
The news room was a fabulous show despite its flaws.
But the west wing was at times a masterpiece. Some episodes are as good as writing gets.
Money ball is just another jewel in his crown.
I played baseball/softball for nearly 15 years, never at a high level, but this movie always brings back memories.
It gets you so invested in the team and what they were trying to accomplish with so little money. The line to Justice about the Yankees paying half his salary, "Thats what the Yankees think about you. They are willing to pay you $3.5 million to play against them." is such a huge line.
Sadly, if you look at the Athletics now, they are being moved to Las Vegas because of how cheap their owner always has been and remains to this day.
I’m a SF Giants fan, but the whole Oakland Raiders & A’s debacle just pisses me off..
One of the places they were considering moving to was portland oregon which I would've preferred over vegas (although I still think it would've been better if they'd stayed in oakland) because I'm from there and the green and yellow jerseys match a few other big teams in oregon like the timbers and the ducks, plus it would've given us a beautiful new baseball stadium as part of the portland diamond project. Probably doesn't matter to the A's or their fans but I think it would've been neat
It has nothing to do with how cheap the owner is, unless you believe that it's reasonable for a guy to spend himself into bankruptcy for your entertainment. The owner was cheap because there wasn't enough money coming in to make it possible to spend a ton on players.
Also, the city of Oakland was a stickler on how the proposed new ball park was gonna be funded etc.. the owner and the city were too stubborn to find common ground
@@ricktreat moving a team is just wrong. if the owner cant afford to keep going then he has to sell. not move the entire team and break fans hearts.
No matter how many times I see this movie, the ending gets me every time. The song just packages the whole story into a nice emotional bundle and I love them for it.
You've probably looked into this already, but just in case you haven't:
A baseball game is 9 innings, each of which is divided in half. In one half, Team A plays in the field and Team B is at bat. In the other half, the teams switch places. "Bottom of the ninth" means the last half of the last inning...the game is almost over. Each half-inning is over when the at-bat team gets three outs.
Games are scored by "runs", instead of "points". A run is when a batter makes it all the way around the bases to home plate.
"Bunting" is when the batter merely taps the ball on the pitch, instead of going for a hit out to farthest part of the field. When a player bunts, both the pitcher and the catcher have to scramble for the ball so that they can try to tag a runner out.
BTW George, this would be the "most American movie" if the ending was changed and Oakland won that last game. But some of the best sports movies (including this one) end with our main characters losing that last match.
Please take a look at a video of George Carlin's "baseball vs football" routine.
Also worth mentioning that "bottom of the ninth" has an extra layer of context because it's only played if the home team (who always bats second) is either tied or behind, so it's *always* do-or-die. If the home team is in the lead, the bottom of the ninth is redundant (since the visitors can't score), so the game just ends.
Oh, might also be worth mentioning that a bunt is usually a sacrifice play: the batting player is almost always thrown out, but whoever's on first has enough time to advance to the next base. (Hence Brad Pitt's "We pay you to get on base, not to advance to second" line.)
@@brianjones8432 And to further put detail on this is the away team bats in the top half of an inning and the home team in the bottom half. If the home team is winning after the top of the ninth inning is over with they don't bother to play the bottom of the inning.
what is an inning?
@@g13n79 It's baseballs term for a period. Baseball plays 9 innings with each inning each team gets opportunity to hit. When the defensive team gets 3 outs it's the other teams turn to bat.
They need to watch 1989 Major League , with Charlie Sheen , Wesley Snipes, Tom Berenger a.s.o
Also because Finland owns 90% of all Baseball related stuff, we need to come up some new name for the game, how about crapper ?
I don't care for baseball but the way this film gets you emotionally invested in the story is just masterful
love me some baseball
When the games start shortly past the hour (5, 7, 10 minutes), it gives the tv broadcast a few minutes to do an opening introduction. It also allows for the national anthem, the first pitch etc.
The answer to all your questions is $. The reason the games start minutes after the hour is to play a few commercials before the game starts and make $.
Definitely watch THE BIG SHORT. Another movie based off of a Michael Lewis book. Directed by Adam McKay (Step Brothers, Anchorman) and it’s amazing. Great performances from Christian Ball, Steve Carell, Brad Pitt, and Ryan Gosling.
this movie was written by Steve Zaillian (Schindler's List, Searching for Bobby Fisher) and Aaron Sorkin (West Wing, Few Good Men, Social Network) and based on a great book. A good script often leads to a good film and this one was also very well cast - Brad and Jonah were great!
Steve Zaillian also made A Civil Action, probably my favorite legal drama. It's so much smarter than the usual John Grisham Hollywood stuff.
@@jculver1674 He also wrote "American Gangster". Zaillian should have gotten an Oscar nomination for Best Adapted Screenplay for that film.
This was my era. Growing up in Oakland, going to $2 Tuesday home games at the Oakland Coliseum with all my friends, a weird mesh of rejects, gangsters, and rockers. After all these years, it makes me sad and mad that the Oakland A's are leaving to Las Vegas.
When a baseball player is a Free Agent (that means when their contract is up) they can choose which team to sign with next, assuming there’s mutual interest. But once a player signs a contract, they can be traded without approving of it. The only exception to this, is if a player has a “no trade clause” in their contract. With which they can turn down any trade if they want to. But really only big stars get that luxury.
Hatteberg was actually very verbal and confident. He idolized Don Mattingly of the Yankees (who played first base). Hatteberg hits a gapper for an easy double but, as he's rounding first, realizes he's passing up a chance to talk to Mattingly. He throws out the anchor, returns to first, and says "What's up?" to Mattingly. Mattingly just looks at him in disbelief and says "You forget where second base it rook?"
So many good stories in baseball.
So he cost himself and the team a double to say hi to a player he liked growing up? SMH.
@@thickerconstrictor9037I’m sure growing up he never expected to play in the big leagues. So yeah, he took the chance to say hello to his idol. How dare he!
7:05 is a pretty common first pitch time. The idea being that the TV Broadcast comes up right at 7pm and that allows for an introduction of the teams before commencing roughly 5 minutes after coming on air. Same as afternoon games at 1:05pm.
12:14 The skills and demands for each field position are different. As a catcher, the demands on his arm to throw were a lot more strenuous. He can't throw that way anymore because of the damage to his elbow. So they're putting him in a position that's lest demanding as far as throwing, but he's completely unfamiliar with how to play the position. They want him on the team though for his hitting ability.
I'm glad you guys liked this film, it was actually nominated for 6 Oscars including Best Picture. And Billy Bean is now a minority owner of the A's, and works as senior adivsor to John Fisher (A's owner).
If you enjoyed this movie, despite having no knowledge about baseball, you’ll love, “A League Of Their Own”. It’s also based around real events, and has several actors that you know and love.
I second that. Please react to A League of Their Own
Games start at something:05 so the TV people have time to do the opening credits and introduce the game at something:00 before it actually starts. If they start at something:10, that means they are airing on a WB/Turner owned station, because they schedule the start of their shows at :05.
Also, the big flag to-do was because it was the first game of the season. About 2/3rds of the way through they will have Armed Forces Appreciation Day and also have a big flag to-do with troops and whatnot.
This was a rating trick back in the day. You schedule a highly popular show into the next hour. This way Friends pull ratings from two different time periods.
A bunt is hitting the ball softly in front of the plate, while setting the runners in motion, designed to move the runners up one base (and therefore closer to home where they can score a run) while the batter is typically thrown out at first base because he has no benefit of a lead. It was a revolution in baseball in the 90's or so to realize that giving your opponents 1 of your allotted 27 outs was far worse than improving your baserunners' situations in order to score more runs overall.
This is describing a sacrifice bunt. Some bunt in an attempt to get a base hit. In those cases the batter has likely noticed a weakness in the defense (I.e., the third baseman playing way back) and tries to bunt the ball to that space and beat the throw to first base.
Am I the only one who didn't understand a single thing of this comment? 😅
😂
I think the bunt is making a comeback of late with that extra innings deal with the runner on second... moving the runner to third with one out seems like a good bet to me in such a situation
@@Jehty21Yes, yes you are the one failing to understand a really simple concept.
I can't remember if it says in the end there, but the Boston Red Sox did end up winning the world series a couple of years later using the Bill James method that Billy Beane used. Breaking the curse of the Great Bambino
That's one of the great subtle references in this movie that a lot of people seem to miss. It's just a quick little line about "science is the answer to the Curse of the Bambino" and at the end it does mention that they used that system to do it! It really emphasizes even more the kind of big win Billy Beane did earn, even if he never did win that last game of the season. I mean, the guy only did just influence one of the greatest pop cultural moments in sports history. 🤷♂️
This film was written by two of the best screenwriters of all time, Steven Zaillian (Schindler's List, Awakenings, Searching for Bobby Fischer) and Aaron Sorkin (The Social Network, The West Wing, The Newsroom, Jobs). I know next to nothing about baseball, but even so I went into it with high expectations because of the two writers - and then it far exceeded my expectations. Phenomenal film. Very grounded in humanity, like all the best stories.
The fact I don't give a shit about baseball but love this movie is just proof of the power of good script, acting and direction.
Great reaction. Sorkin is a master screenwriter.
I translated the Chad Bradford's chapter in Italian with a group of baseball fans and still cherish that chapter and his funny way of throwing (due to his father suffering from a stroke and teaching him to throw submarine).
Billy's lesson in the movie was about heart before money, family and future before successful career. He won by staying with his daughter.
Co-screenwriter, Steven Zaillian (Schindler's List, Searching for Bobby Fischer) deserves a lot of credit also for his own masterful contributions. In the end, director Bennet Miller is the ultimate mastermind because he took the best parts of both Sorkin's and Zaillian's screenplays and blended them into one fantastic motion picture.
This movie is telling the story of how analytics was introduced into Major League Baseball. It introduced several different measurements/statistics to show a players worth in a game that is famous for grading players based on statistics. In todays game they use analytics so much more than they did back then.
DJDOGG is right. Billy Beane and the A's were the first team to fully embrace analytics in baseball. For a few years, the Oakland Athletics were consistently a team good enough to make the playoffs because of their ability to recognize players that would score runs or pitchers that would prevent the other team from scoring. Once all the other teams followed the A's use of Analytics, they could no longer compete.
Today, the A's have become the worst team in Major League Baseball. For the smaller market teams (Oakland, Minnesota, Kansas City, Tampa Bay), you have to do nearly everything perfectly; drafting young ballplayers, smart trades, astute free agent signings, having a really cohesive front office and scouting department that are lockstep on philosophy, and players that are prepared to play their roles with a good attitude. Even if your team manages do everything right, it's still an uphill battle to advance to the World Series.
Definitely a movie that transcends the sports movie genre. Whether you know or care a thing about professional baseball, this movie is just so fascinating and enjoyable from start to finish.
As far as players contracts are concerned, once you have a signed contract, you are with that team until that contract expires, you're released from it, or it's renegotiated. So when a team trades for a player, they're trading for that players contract. So the same terms apply, just with the new team. In the scene where they offer Hatteberg a contract, he's a free agent (he has no contract), and available to sign a contract with any team.
I think Simone and George also weren't clear that typically these contracts are for multiple years, not just a single year. That's a crucial long-term strategy component for the GM to manage. It's not just how much are we paying this player this year or making a trade for this season, but how many years are we going to be paying them and will they still be good in the future. A big trend in modern baseball (that can be somewhat attributed to "moneyball"/sabermetrics) has seen teams try to get away from paying players based on past performance/reputation but instead based on expectations/projections.
@@AdamLaMore There are also no-trade clauses that can be added to (usually veteran players contracts) that prohibit trading their contract to certain teams without the players approval.
The fact that Billy did not succeed in professional baseball, to is not because of confidence or distractions, but it exposes the problems in the old recruiting system, they overvalued him because he was good looking, confident and has the athletic build. It goes with the old talent scout saying that a player is not good because he has an ugly girlfriend, which shows all the issues with the human element evaluating players, that it does not have much objectivity or rationality.
I'd have to disagree. They evaluated him as a player first based on the 5 tools, fielding, throwing, speed, hitting and hitting power. They said in the sit down with the parents that he has all 5 tools, meaning he does each very well. If he couldn't play, they wouldn't be there scouting him.
@@Capitol19 It's not that he can't play, he was very talented as you say. But his talent did not match up to the talent the recruiters perceived in him on an emotional level because of factors that don't have much to do with actually playing the game of baseball. Therefore they were eventually disappointed in his performance and didn't feel he was worth what they had paid for him.
The professional (and especially Major League) curve ball is the great divider. Plenty of fantastic athletes (Michael Jordan anyone?) who find out they can't hit the curve the hard way. It is the single biggest difference between being a good/great High School player and being a professional player. In HS and college there are pitchers with consistently good curve balls, but they are few and far between. In the Major Leagues they are everywhere.
Yea they got it wrong with Billy, but what about the thousands & thousands of players the "old system' had evaluated correctly? People slip thru the cracks. Like they say, recruiting is not a science and there will be failures, but that does not mean you burn it all down. Baseball has been around for over 100years. For any business/sport to last that long, well, the 'experience matters' business model works.
@@kurtisschilk1218the point is that you shouldn't object to change like the scouts did in the movie. You can still do things the old way while simultaneously considering all the statistical stuff in the "moneyball" strategy. You don't have to burn the old system down to add the new one. You can use both and that one guy wasn't willing to (and probably so were several others who weren't vocalizing it like that one guy did)
The game times being 605 705 710 etc is because the games are on TV and if they started exactly at 7:00, the introductions and opening information that the commentators give at the start of the game would have to start at 6:50 and TV shows start either at the top of the hour or 30 minutes past the hour. So if it starts at 7:05 or 7:10, it gives the commentators enough time to do their introductions and give a brief talk about what to expect from the game tonight and if there's any news about the teams before the game actually starts. They usually talk for 3-8 minutes depending on the start time and then they go to commercial and when they come back to the game starts.
I have never been a fan of baseball, so I ignored this movie when it first came out. Years later I stumbled across a movie clip on CZcams, and I was impressed with the acting of Pitt and Hill. I ended up watching the whole movie that night, and enjoying it.
Players can earn a no-trade clause in their contract after a certain number of years playing for a team, which gives them the right to veto any trade of which they don't approve, but the majority of players do not have this clause in their contract.
Adding onto that, if you don’t have a no-trade clause, and you’ve signed a contract for a certain number of years, those remaining years can be traded to another team. I always think of it like a loan, another team agrees to the same terms you signed the contract for. You have no say on who picks up the contract if the original team wishes to barter it away. It’s either accept the trade or retire.
5 and 10 rule. If you have 10 years in the majors and 5 years with your team, you get an automatic trade approval clause. Before that, you have to negotiate a no-trade clause.
In European football, on the other hand, the players dictate where they go. And the transfer fees (paid to the player and agent) are exorbitant even before you get to the player salaries.
When drafted, (during time of this movie), club held control of player for 5 years, plus two years of club options (club decides each year to keep at current contract or let go).
After that, player becomes a free agent, can sign anywhere to any contract they can negotiate.
Definitely add Field of Dreams to your list. It's never the movie people expect it to be. It's a baseball movie, yes, but it's so much uniquely more than that. It's one of my favorites.
The thing with a small budget team is: You have to do things differently and do a really good job to make the best with what you have.
But if you do something different and it works, the big teams will copy your methods and it will get harder every year to punch above weight.
The scene where they talk about firing people at 17:30 made me think of a really good movie called Up in the Air with George Clooney & Anna Kendrick. It's directed by Jason Reitman who also did Thank You for Smoking with Aaron Eckhart which is also one of my favorite underrated movies.
George seems like the type who'd really enjoy sabermetrics from a data analysis standpoint. It's a great branch of maths and economics, branching out of econometrics as a way for bringing things down to a single number that can easily be ordered and compared, if can be used in a negative manner when applied to people in a general sense such as where to invest resources etc but in a sports realm it's great.
This is pretty much my second favourite movie. The Big Short is my favourite movie.
You can probably tell I'm an economist, statistician, and kind of into justice and a bit OCD.
Please watch The Big Short soon!! It's amazing! And it has Ryan Gosling, Simone!
The quietness of the movie, and another reason it's so great, is Aaron Sorkin's writing. Less is more....until more is more with the brilliantly frenetic trade scenes where the energy only comes from words Sorkin wrote.
I loved this flick. You guys should definitely give "Bull Durham" a watch . . . Another baseball movie (romantic comedy) about the minor leagues starring Kevin Costner, Susan Sarandon and Tim (Shawshank Redemption) Robbins. It's a classic, and it's hilarious, smart and thoughtful all at the same time. Like "Moneyball" you'll love it, even if you don't know a thing about baseball.
I love how a scene about math is about how valuable people who have been undervalued are.
Jeremy Giambi, the clubhouse party animal that was traded, got a pretty raw deal in this movie. He was a solid player for the A’s on some of their best teams. Sadly, he took his life last year at the age of 47.
Also, I am your subscriber from Oakland, CA and a HUGE Oakland A's fan. That season with the streak (I was in attendance for the Hatteberg homerun game) captivated the city in a way that is hard to describe! Our small market team in a urban city wrecking the norm of baseball because around that time, baseball was in the beginning of the BUY the best player era and Yankees were the kings. What Billy Beane did really changes how a lot of teams went about building their rosters.
Amazing reaction guys! even not knowing the game, understanding the sentiment is the best part!
I love this movie. If I catch it on TV, whatever moment it's at, I'm drawn in and everything else is forgotten. One of the best written movies I've ever seen.
This story changed baseball AND sports more broadly.
These concepts are everywhere in professional sports now.
These concepts are everywhere. Everything is data-driven now.
Yeah, you can't talk soccer these days without hearing about xG(expected goals), but then again I shouldn't complain, since at least people are talking about something other than just the players who score the goals, as if the rest of the team isn't equally important.
Which took the advantage away, cause now the rich teams outbid the points teams for these undervalued players, just like they did for the top players back in the day..
@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192At least you still have the draft to even things out somewhat, instead of entire oil-rich countries buying individual teams and pouring billions into dominating the league year after year...
The author of this book also wrote The Big Short which was also turned into an excellent movie. The Big Short is the true story of the 2008 housing market crash and how 1 guy saw it coming 2 years before it happened, and made hundred's of millions of dollars. you find yourself hoping the market crashes because no one is listening to him. It's fascinating and incredibly frustrating at the same time.
Spoilers!
A run is essentially a point in baseball, scored when a runner crosses home plate. A home run is when the batter hits the ball and is able to clear all of the bases in a single hit. Usually this is done by hitting the ball over the fence, but sometime there are what are called inside-the-park home runs, which are usually because of a fielding error. So a home run results in one or more runs, but a run does not mean it was a home run. It's just a point being scored by someone crossing home.
Bonus: a grand slam is when a batter hits a home run while there are already runners occupying all three bases, resulting in four runs scored from a single hit.
I know about as little about baseball as Simone but this movie is still so enjoyable.
Just shows the power of good writing, directing and acting.
I know they're Canadian, but it's honestly impressive how they've managed to avoid learning the basics of baseball from pop culture osmosis. I bet Europeans who grew up watching the Simpsons and other American media know more than that! 😄
"Based on a true story"
They changed a lot of things up. For instance Phillip Seymour Hoffmanns character was on board with it all and supported Billy.
Watching someone who doesn’t know baseball learn to appreciate the game brings a tear to my eye 🥲 baseball is numbers, and baseball is romantic. Had fun watching this again with you guys
Baseball, of all the sports, is a stats or math driven game. The interesting thing is that some of the most important stats just require simple division or addition. Though in the last 20-30 years, there are new stats that are more involved, adding nuance to a players value. The other sports just don't have much of a connection using "data," as George remarked.
@@robstoll7542yes and no, considering it being a math/stats game. The example I always go to is the 2004 ALCS between the Red Sox and Yankees. Yankees were up 3-0 and about to put the last nail in the coffin before Boston won 4 straight. I'm sure there are a few moments that can allude to stats being a factor, but that was just something else entirely.
The other pro leagues try, football being the most recent. Cleveland tried it with the Browns not too long ago and that blew up in their faces. I know the NFL loves to push the next gen stats on every other play, but there are instances where stats had nothing to do with it whatsoever.
The "05" times are when the first pitch is thrown. The TV time of a game starts on the hour, five minutes before the actual play starts.
This movie, along with MARGIN CALL, is SO WELL WRITTEN and acted that you can NEVER get enough of watching it.
I'm not very into sports and love this movie... then again I'm not really into war and love Saving Private Ryan. This is a good reminder to myself not to pre-judge a film based just on the genre or topic.
Another sports film worth checking is Goon (2011) with Sean William Scott, his best performance IMO. It's a hockey film about an "enforcer", which is the real and unofficial role of the guy who is on the team solely to beat the crap out of people. It's not really comparable to Moneyball with its superstar cast, still worth a watch I think.
True, lots of people miss out on stuff they would have loved because they have preconceived notions about certain genres or topics. My dad despairs of getting my mom to read certain books he's sure she'd love because of her "sci-fi is just spaceships and lasers" type nonsense...
Don't get me wrong this team had an amazing story but what this movie leaves out, is they had three of the most dominant starting pitchers in baseball during this time. They don't mention them one time in the movie at all. Now if you don't watch baseball I know you're not going to understand but basically most teams have 5 starting pitchers on their team. Each one pitches every 5 days. So Bob will start the game on Monday Pete will start the game on Tuesday Nick will start the game Wednesday Brad will start the game Thursday and Aaron will start the game friday. They throw the majority of the game depending on how well they are doing. They will usually throw anywhere from half to three quarters of the game on average. But if you have three lights out stellar starting pitchers, that is a huge huge huge advantage. They also had Miguel tejada which they do mention in the movie and he was an absolute stud in the field and hitting. He was an MVP at one point I believe. So don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this season wasn't amazing and that their budget wasn't much lower than all the other teams, I mean I grew up in Florida so the Tampa Bay rays are one of the best teams on the planet at spending very little money and being very very good every year even though they don't ever win the world series haha. But yeah this movie definitely leaves out some huge players that are on the team.
Edit: also Philip Seymour Hoffman's character in real life was a fantastic manager and deserves a ton ton ton of credit. He did an amazing job with that ball club and a lot of the credit in this movie goes to Billy beane and makes art howe the manager look like he was against billy but he deserves just as much credit as billy.
The pitcher thing has always been crazy to me... I'm a soccer fan, and soccer players need about 5 days rest between games, which wasn't a problem back in the day when games were only played on Saturday afternoons, but these days teams are playing every 3 days most of the season, and teams have to rotate their squad and rest players in order to prevent injury and fatigue, just to cram more games into the calender.
Neither sport seems to even consider the idea of lowering the number of games, so the fans can watch the best players play at full fitness, rather than a team that's half mediocre backup players and half exhausted star players. Quality over quantity seems to be completely lost...
Yes, they don't have anywhere near as good a season without Mulder, Zito, and Hudson.
@@korganrocks3995 Not familiar enough with soccer and will take your word for that. I do know about baseball though and while I understand your point most of the non-pitchers can play everyday and are very used to it. A lot of players do not like taking days off as that may ruin their rhythm. Relief pitchers, they usually pitch 1/2 innings a game can pitch on back to back days so it is really only the Starting pitchers who play every 5 days. While they may not play every day the games that they are involved in, they are VERY MUCH involved in.
@@claytoncourtney1309Yeah, baseball is an oddity in that way, since one position is so much more physically demanding than any of the others. It'd kinda be as if soccer was played with 10 goalkeepers and a single outfielder rather than the other way around! 😄
I taught HS math, Alg.1, Math Models, and Pre-Calc. This film and the book were standard in my class. The POWER of Data & the ability to interpret the math!
Important to note that both theories were correct with the homerun to get them 20 consecutive victories in the end there. On one hand, Hatteberg was signed purely because he was an on-base guy, meaning he wasn't a big hitter but was productive. And in the end, he did what the numbers couldn't have predicted. He had a big-time player moment by hitting a homerun. On a long enough scale, the data driven approach averages out and you get what you predicted. But, in those little moments, where you need a really big play, that's entirely up to who the player is and what the scouts may or may not have seen in them. A beautiful moment where the two theories of scouting played off eachother, possibly even proving eachother wrong, as scouts would not have predicted that homerun.
The movie is based on (or inspired by) the book of the same name by Michael Lewis. The tone of the book is quite different. It's a work of journalism, not a narrative story. It covers things like the minor league that the movie doesn't touch on.
Like most fact-based movies, this one deviates from reality in some significant ways. One is in how Art Howe was portrayed. In real life he had no problem with Billy Beane or the Moneyball approach. He was not an angry, negative sourpuss. Howe was actually offended by how they made him look like a jerk, and rightly so IMO.
The business with making the players pay for their own sodas was made up. The A's were cheap, but not that cheap.
The Big Three were left out of the movie. They were Barry Zito, Tim Hudson, and Mark Mulder-a trio of starting pitchers who were key in the A's successes that season. Zito won the 2002 American League Cy Young Award, given by the sportswriters to the best pitcher in the league. That's a pretty big omission in my book.
Peter Brand (Jonah Hill) was based on Paul DePodesta. Not only was he not traded to the A's, he couldn't be. Players can be traded because of an agreement between the teams and the players' union that allows it. Non-playing team employees are not party to this agreement. It would be like a McDonald's franchise trading a cook to a different McDonald's.
As for player trades: a player who's just starting in Major League Baseball has few rights. He doesn't have any leverage to negotiate his salary, and he can be traded, cut, or sent down to the minor leagues at any time (with a few restrictions I won't go into here). After a player has been in the Major Leagues for a few years, he becomes eligible for binding arbitration in salary negotiations. After six years in the majors, a player becomes eligible for free agency when his contract expires, which means he's free to offer his services to any team he wants. And after ten years in the majors with the last five on the same team, a player can veto any trade.
Games start several minutes after the hour (or half hour) because TV and radio coverage start at the top of the hour. The broadcasters spend the first five minutes introducing the game before it starts.
A bunt is when the batter, instead of swinging at the ball, holds the bat out in front of himself and lets the ball hit it. When properly done, the ball rolls on the infield in a place where the fielders have to scramble to get it. Most bunts are done as sacrifices: the idea is for one or more baserunners to advance while the batter makes an out. Most statistical analysts hate the sacrifice bunt. Most of the time, giving up an out to advance a base reduces the number of runs a team will score.
I was at games 3, 18, and 20 of The Streak. It's still one of the most exciting things I've seen in all my years as a baseball fan.
The Boston Red Sox used the Moneyball approach to win the World Series in 2004 for the first time since 1918.
Yep!
Those old fuddy-duddy, know-nothing scouts in the movie were the ones that actually built that great pitching staff that Billy went on to ride to success, while he just added some spare parts.
But narrative.
I’m so glad that you guys watched this! I just started your reaction. I’ll chime in after, I was at a lot of those games. I was living in Oakland at the time.
Watching this later, but here’s some player contract basics:
- An UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT can sign a contract with any team. But once he’s under contract, he is bound to it until it expires. Unless he has a no-trade clause, he can be traded without any input and his only recourse is to sit out and not play at all, in breach of contract, in order to force a renegotiation.
- A RESTRICTED FREE AGENT can sign anywhere, but the team he currently plays for may match any offer and keep him. If they do not match, they may receive a draft pick as compensation for their player being signed away.
- PLAYER OPTION means the player has the choice to extend the contract by a year for the pre-negotiated amount of money
- TEAM OPTION means the team has the choice to extend the contract by a year for the pre-negotiated amount of money
(Edited for spelling)
This was a surprising gem of a movie. Acting. Story. Cinematography. Directing. Incredible.
This movie has always reminded me of the movie "For Love of the Game" It's Kevin Costner as a picture of a major League baseball team. It also stars Kelly Preston, John c Reilly, Jenna Malone and JK Simmons.
It has a very similar feel to this movie It's about baseball but not. I think you guys will like it.
So this is a well made and a good movie. But like most based on true events movies it fudges what really happened. The fact that the movie never mentioned that the starting rotation was really really great that year and a major part of how well the team did is a big part to leave out.
Was the starting rotation aquired through the money ball system or were they there already?
If the team already had a core of great players, why did they start the season so badly?
And please bear in mind I'm a lament. Thanks.
and mvp miguel tejada :/
@@NeilLewis77 all the starters had been there for at least the season before or more and they had one rookie starting pitcher who had been in the Oakland farm system for 2 years.
As for the bad start if the offence doesn't score any runs the best pitchers in the world won't get you wins. The opposite is also true, a good offense with bad pitching won't get you wins either.
@@NeilLewis77the major arms in the starting rotation were mostly guys the A’s drafted and moved through their minor league system.
There are a lot of things you can attribute to the rough start, but it’s mainly just baseball. There’s 162 games in a season, and there are ups and downs for players and teams alike. A hitter going 10-30 (.333 batting average) means he averaged one hit every 3 at bats. But in reality that player could’ve gone 0-20 and then 10-10.
@@charliecranston5 oh ok that makes sense thanks.
So do you think they would gone on the famous winning streak even without the money ball aspect?
Was it just that core group of players that won those games or wouldn't of it worked with our the other "misfits"?
The dollar amounts shown at the beginning of them movie are the players salaries for each team. It was meant to show that Oakland can't pay the same as big market clubs so they have to find other ways to be competitive.
"Bottom of the 9th" means the second half of the 9th (and final) inning. So in other words, when a baseball game gets to the bottom of the 9th, it all comes down to that moment and the next few plays will be what make or break everything.
It was easy for billy to go into the statistics because he was a player that the scouts said was gonna be something big and he wasn't. Also baseball does not have a salary cap so you can put a much money into your team as you want. That's why the new york Yankees are always good because the owner has a lot of money and puts it into the team. American football docent have that problem they have a salary cap so every team has the same amount of money
The principles of advanced metrics (Moneyball without necessarily the money part) can be applicable to other sports though. Especially something like hockey, where traditional methods of measuring players (goals, assists, +/-) do not correlate to winning championships.
baseball certainly does have a salary cap..or at least limit above which the team is 'fined' a percentage which is given back to the other teams. The Mets were so much over the salary cap this year (I think) so they also had to pay a percentage that goes into the leagues fund to divide up to the teams.. so there is no HARD cap...but there is a point where it begins to hurt to go over it... I guess it's more like a soft cap
If you like this movie, then I recommend "The Big Short"! It's also a data centric movie about the housing crisis, also an amazing cast, and yes Brad is in it too. 😅
Re: the end discussion on why he didnt take the money; the metaphor brad pitt/jonah hill are talking about is “he hit a homerun and didn’t even realize it”. Billy has his family nearby in oakland, a team/staff that has now bought in, and as jonah hill says “its not about the money, its about what the money says” which is billys philosophy was right. So he doesnt need to move, he already hit his proverbial homerun in oakland. So he stays (and becomes part of the ownership years later)
My brother told me when he was in Junior High in High School, his statics class teacher showed the whole class this movie. I just like about this movie that it just shows more in depth about the trading process and the reality about the whole spiel for all sports. Damn it I love this movie and the book.
I'm from England, so I don't really understand baseball but this movie is just genius, the cast, the writers, Sorkin and Zaillian, its one of the favourite movies of one of the best screenwriter coaches in the world, the daughters role is just so crucial and moving, I think Pitt 'saved' this screenplay from going nowhere. No doubt it went under the mainstream radar but its a masterclass of great movie-making....and that ending is so not Hollywood!!
It helps that it’s a true story that’s so recent. They couldn’t really mess with the ending too much since so many remember it.
All you really need to know about baseball is that the pitcher throws the ball, the batter tries to hit it, there are four "bases" you have to run to in order to score a point, and the rest of the guys are trying to catch the ball. Everything else is just details.
I read the book when it first came out. When I heard they were making a movie, I was very skeptical - it's such a data-driven story. But the screenplay is just wonderful, and the dynamic between Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill is great.
Players turn down contracts all the time for all sorts of reasons, even if the money is higher. That’s not just in baseball too.
The GM (Pitt) handles the front office duties (signing & trading players, contract talks, etc.). The manager (PSH) is the on field guy that controls the 25-man roster.
Oakland was doing stuff differently, but this team also had an incredible pitching staff and an All-Star shortstop. Many teams have adapted a similar premise. The Tampa Bay Rays, another small market team, have arguably adopted it the best.
The A’s 20-game win streak was eventually broken by Cleveland in 2017 after they won 22 straight.
That IS Bobby Kotick. Simone nailed the meaning of the ending btw.
I was wondering if George would recognize Bobby Kotick! His one and only acting credit.
I always saw Billy staying with the team because they were the last team that gave him a chance as a player before he quit. There's a loyalty and kinship to a team that never won the big game he just wanted to take them there.
Opening day there is usually a patriotic display. The anthem. Played by Slash ( Oakland is after all part of the SF bayarea, home ofthe hippie music. Jimi Hendrix played the anthem at Woodstock.
One of my favorite jokes from This is The End is when Jonah Hill is praying to God and says "It's me, Jonah Hill... from Moneyball"
Some players have what is called a “No-Trade Clause.” For the player, depending on the contract/player they may have a list of teams OR the ability to say no to ANY team in a trade. Other than that, players don’t really have a say in trades.
At 10:35 in the video:
A general manager is the person in charge of team contracts. They answer to the owner directly and are the ones that sign player contracts. Depending on how hands on/off the owner is, they'll also potentially be in charge of hiring/firing coaching staff, as well as be the main spokesperson of the team.
Within baseball, the manager of the team is like a head coach in the NFL/NHL/NBA. They'll be in charge of setting lineups and rotations on gameday, as well as making the required substitutions as a game goes on.
I love this movie. Thanks for reacting to this. :)
The reason they want Scott Hatteburg at first base (despite having only previously played catcher) is because first basemen typically get the ball thrown TO them, not have to make throws themselves. Usually, by the time a ball is hit where a player is getting to second, third, or home, the ball is well past the first baseman into the outfield, so they almost never have to make throws .
They like his ability to get on base and hit, and the nerve damage in his elbow which affects his ability to throw the ball (essential as a catcher) is not a liability at first base.
There are nine innings in baseball just like there are three periods in hockey or four quarters in basketball or two halves in soccer. The "top" of an inning, the first half of the inning played, is when the away team is at bat. The "bottom" of the inning is when the home team is up at bat. If the bottom of the ninth comes, it means the away team is leading and they are three outs away from winning the game.
This is an incredibly intense moment of a game, because this is the last chance for the home team to score enough runs to tie or win the game. If the home team takes the lead in the bottom of the ninth, it's often on what's called a "walk off" hit, where a run scores. The crowd almost always goes crazy when you have a moment like this, because as soon as that run scores, the game is over and the home team wins. Usually, the whole team will meet the guy who scores at home plate and celebrate too.
****Probably the most ingenious thing of this fantastic movie is they make it seem like the Athletics had NO ONE on their team that particular year. What they DONT tell you is they had one of the most dominant 3-4 starting pitchers in the game. Barry Zito, Mark Mulder & a Veteran 30 y/o Corey Lidle** Not one word said about them the whole movie. Together they won I believe just under 70 games with them alone. ****
Perfect explanation of how analytics took over the game of baseball. It actually started with the Cleveland (cough) Guardians) and they have dozens of their core employees working on tons of other teams. Basically came out of the fact that Cleveland was small market and had to think of a "smarter" way to play. Paul DePodesta is the Jonah Hill character (though DePodesta asked that his name not be used as it would negate the work of so many other coworkers).
Just to clarify how player contracts work, if a player is a "free-agent", that means they do not have a contract in place with any team and they are free to sign with anyone. Chris Pratt's character was a free-agent and thus had choice in whether he wanted to sign with the A's.
However, if a player has a signed contract with a team, then that team can trade them to another team any time up until the trade deadline, which is mid-season. In that case, the player does not have a say in where he gets traded unless the contract between him and the team has a "no trade clause" which allows them to turn down getting traded to another team. So, Giambi and Pena did not have a choice of what team they were going to because the team decided to trade them. Now if a player really doesn't want to play for a team they are traded to, they can refuse to play--they'll lose their salary because they are breaking their contract, but the team will often trade them to someone they want to be with because it's better for the team to get someone in a trade for them rather than them just not playing. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does sometimes.
i know y’all probably won’t see this, but when it comes to players in the mlb, when players are being traded between teams, they don’t get much of a choice. when they’re free agents and are being offered contracts to sign, then they get a choice
Chris Pratt's character wasn't afraid of the ball. He was afraid of the ball being hit toward him as a first baseman. Fielding the ball as he had been a catcher. So when he was at bat he was fine. That's why they signed him because of his ability to get on base.
To clarify a few things:
1. The draft is exclusively for amateur players. Typically younger players coming out of high school or college in the United States (there is no draft system for foreign amateur players so teams sign whoever can fit in their budget) declare for the draft and then sign a contract with the team that drafted them. Think of the draft as an opportunity for teams to declare "dibs" on a player and talk to them before any other team is allowed to.
2. When an athlete is traded in baseball (and hockey, basketball, football, etc.), their contract carries over. If a player signs a contract with team a and team b trades for him, team b pays all of their remaining salary unless they work out a deal for team a to pay a chunk of it. This is what happened to David Justice. The Yankees were so desperate to get rid of him that they were willing to pay half of his 7 million per year contract. Players when traded get no say whatsoever in going or wanting to stay unless they work out a "no-trade" clause in their contract, which is usually reserved for star players making big money.
3. Free agents are players who can sign with any team and have total freedom in where they go. Scott Hatteberg was a free agent signing by Billy Beane, hence why he went to talk to him directly. He needed to be there in person to convince him to sign, since Scott could've easily said no if he wanted to retire or play for another team if he had another offer on the table.
4. GM's make business decisions (trading, signing and drafting players), managers make on field decisions (who plays, who sits, what position everyone plays, etc.). Usually GMs and Managers work together to construct the best team they can, but there have been instances of dysfunctional teams that imploded due to lack of communication between the front office and the players and coaching staff.
Games usually begin a few minutes after the hour to give radio and TV broadcasts a few minutes to introduce the game.
Movie is in 2002, less than a year after 9-11. Thats why the national anthem was like that in the opener. Great detail
Billy didn't actually "buy" Jonah Hill from the Indians, he negotiated a buyout with Cleveland with the intent on giving Jonah a huge promotion that he would be an idiot to turn down.
As a lifelong A's fan, and someone who went to the infamous "Reverse Boycott" game earlier this year to protest the relocation of the team to Vegas, I was shocked to see Simone in an A's jersey today in the thumbnail! LOL
This is my favourite movie of all time. The slow building movie. The metaphors in metaphors. The still camera zooms that zoom again. "It's like an island of misfit toys". Pure inspiring so happy you guys reacted to this.
Its a process, trust the process.
I believe they start the games at?:05 is for tv purposes. That way the audience tunes in at 6, the announcers get some lead-in time to hype up the game or something, the have first pitch five minutes into that.
I lack a lot of knowledge on Baseball, never watch it. But this movie, I enjoy and re-watch often.
I lack a lot of knowledge on the markets and finances; but I rewatch "The Big Short" every year.
That's how good the characters are, that's how engaging the movie is. It's just great to watch!