Why THIS Never Replaced the Humvee
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- čas přidán 4. 05. 2024
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The M1117 started life way back in the 1960s as the Commando series of vehicles built by Cadillac Gage. Military police forces in Vietnam needed a vehicle for base and convoy security that was more nimble than the tracked M113 APC but better armored than a jeep or truck. The first version, known as the V-100, entered service in 1963 and was shipped to South Vietnam to support the US Military Police, Air Force, Marine Corps and allied Army of the Republic of Vietnam.
As a security vehicle armed only with machine guns or a grenade launcher, the V-100 wasn’t intended for front line combat, instead patrolling air bases and supply depots along with escorting convoys behind the lines, but the nature of the conflict in Vietnam meant that the Commando frequently found itself pressed into cavalry and mechanized units of the ARVN. The vehicle’s steel armor was only sufficient to stop light machine gun fire and smaller explosive fragments, but the Commando was still well liked by its crews as its height and amphibious capability made it useful for seeing over and traversing the marshy vegetation of South Vietnam.
Written by: Chris Cappy & Diego Aceituno
Edited by: Michael Michaelides
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Something I actually know a pretty good amount about. I did some assistance with the Artic Testing on this veh. Also, a SSG & myself figured out the feeding issue with the MK19. It kept pulling the links apart and/or failing to feed.
Hey cap just letting you know at the very end those two options never pop up
It's s good you mentioned a copy-paste of brdm-2 design
Looks like a worse version of the Ratel.
Raycon is completely crap, do NOT BUY RAYCON!!! It is sad you are selling your viewers BS like that...
My unit was first assigned to do convoy escort duty when we first arrived in Iraq and the ASV was my team's vehicle for those first few months. And most of the IED strikes I was a part of were while in the ASV, she can take a beating. It was also blessed with real working AC if you can believe that, our LT insisted on riding with us even though he was not supposed to as we were the lead vehicle in the scout element.
Most of the strikes? Damn man you guys were hitting them that freaken often???? Jesus…. Thank you for your service sir
@@Jay-wp2nwwhen they’d come back into Kuwait after a mission/convoy they’d talk about how many times they got “blown up” that week while puffing down cigs at the smoke pit. As a civilian m, I felt bad for the young troops that will have to deal with that reality once they got stateside.
They also rolled over all the time in Iraq lol, very easily
@@98MAzdaMilleniaS In a weird way that might have saved the guys inside - rolling instead of sitting there and taking the full blast, buckling floor boards etc..... of course rolling in a vehicle can't be pleasant🙂
Do you have any thoughts on how it compared to MRAPs? Were MRAPs just a totally different capability?
So, I was a 19K, that reclassed to 11B when I left active duty for the National Guard. In 2006, my unit was deployed to Ramadi, Iraq. Because of my tanker past, I was assigned as a driver to one of our platoon's 2 M1117's. I got to tell you, compared to the uparmored Humvee, the M1117 was a Cadillac! Smooth ride, versatile, and inspired our confidence, especially after our first firefight. I still remember the sounds of the small arms fire bouncing off our hull. We also survived an IED, with moderate damage. One week later, our M-1117 was back in action! It was a great truck, and I was honored to have been the guy in charge of it!
I was in Ramadi during that same time running logistics convoys for 3rd Bn 8th Marines. I always wish I could have got one of those for my platoon instead of the Up-Armored Humvees.
We had these in 2007 in Iraq. We kept hitting IEDs so often we kept having to acquire new antennas... Then one day an EFP took one out through the wheel well, took the TC commanders leg off and my buddy almost lost his foot. Everyone survived but it burnt to the ground. I liked it more than the HUMMVEE and wish we had them in Baghdad 5 months later...
Thanks for being a crash dummy
We had to turn them down in 2006 / 2007 in Baghdad because we were inside neighborhoods with low hanging wires
First time I saw one was 2005 in ramadi. We were just stopping in for fuel and the Army rolls up with that. My Marine brain goes “wtf is that” and without missing a beat the SFC sees me confused and just yells “it’s ours, you can’t have it, you’ll just break it” 😂
My team was assigned the ASV in 2009 in Iraq, I was in a MP unit. Loved this vehicle, one of the best vehicles I ever used. The AC was straight from a Blue Bird bus, at least that is what they told us while training on it. Because there was not a gaping hole in the roof, you actually got cold inside of it. Another plus for my team, it uses the Cummins 6.7 diesel thats used in the Ram trucks, since we were a National Guard unit, my gunner was a mechanic for Ram trucks and was trained to work on that specific engine. The only part that sucked about the ASV was going out every few months with a torque wrench to tighten down all the bolts on the attached armor panels. I was not happy when they took them away to send to Afghanistan. I ended up getting a Caiman MRAP as a replacement, which is also a very nice and great riding vehicle. Unlike the MaxPro, it actually had a great ride due to the suspension, almost like you floated over the bumps.
Thank you for your service 😊
November 10, 2023 - Nice to have story about tax payers' money actually being used properly. Veterans Day greetings from one vet to another. Stay well.👍👍😊
Harpers ferry cross pistols
Hooah
Glad you made it home.
@@The_ZeroLine
My MP Co had the M151A1 with an M60 like the Rat Patrol TV show....
For AC we hit the gas a little harder....😉
I'd love to have had one little numbers instead of our jeeps....
Wasn't a 6.7 Cumnins but very close in architecture, it was a 6CT 8.3L Cummins.
Our Cav Squadron had two for each Troop, running convoy security up & down Rte Tampa, Iraq 07-08. Our team consisted of a 5-ton, with mine rollers out front, a couple of humvees in the #2 & #3 spots, me in the ASV to act as a "floater" and the rear truck was another 5-ton carrying gear, parts, fuel etc. There were very few people who liked this machine, outside of those of us who used it. Mechanics didn't want to waste any time on 'em so everything was "10-level". Checking the armor fasteners would usually eat up your entire "day off". Was a tough dune buggy, flex vehicle and awesome unit...I miss it.
I used the fire support configuration of this quite a bit while I was on a COLT team. It was called the M1200 Armored Knight and we absolutely loved them
Nice! I love this style of vehicle. I'm sure you've seen/heard already but check out the South African Rooikat APC, this looks like it uses some modernized ideas from that (excellent) line of machines
My only complaint about them was it was pretty cramped in there with all the electronics and the turret basket taking up most of the compartment. But, overall it was a pretty good vehicle.
My brother lost his friend at sub base bangor wa when their v150 rolled over after the driver took a corner too quick. My brother was first on scene, turret gunner had his lower half crushed and my bro tried to pick up the 10 ton vehicle as he watched his friend die. After that v150s were dropped for humv that may not have been as armored but didn't roll as easy. This was in 2000/01. News helicopters ignored the fact it was a nuke base and tried to fly over to get a "good shot" but luckily for them command told the Marines to NOT shoot them down, yes, they asked for permission,.....twice. last thing ID do if a marine was just killed in the line of duty would be to then film said dead marine while being warned they are flying in restricted airspace and would be in such deep shit federally if they didn't leave the area. Because of the trees they wouldn't be able to see em anyway.
Side story but everytime I see this m1117 I think of the v150 that killed my brothers friend.
Those wondering, it was two Marines, not one who passed, McBride and price.
Just spoke with my brother. He's got a heavy dose of PTSD from this and his time in iraq. lost his best friend lcpl martini in al karma in 06 besides a few others, but martini was the same age and also from Chicago, making them inseparable.
In the accident McBride and price were in the turret. McBride was the one my brother was talking to and trying to lift the v150 off of, price was fully under.
Ross was the driver, my brother said his face as he's pulling him out will always be burned into his memory. He was kind of "that guy" in the unit too.
These brave men died serving their country, and should be remembered as such, same with all the other Marines, airmen, sailors and soldiers who die every year in training and patrol accidents.
Semper fi, thank you to all those serving and those who served.
Sorry for you trauma! 😔
😥❤️🛐
Sharing their stories keeps their memory alive. I hope your brother holds up to the PTSD and does well in life. Semper fi mate 🇦🇺🤝🇺🇲
@@jpjones5880 A salute to your brother from another vet. I second your thoughts concerning all of those brave enough to serve their country, and those that die and suffer from injuries because of their williness to sacrifice for the U.S.A.👍👍🙏🏽🙏🏽✝✝
I wish we had these when I was a platoon leader in Somalia in 1993. We did a lot of convoy escort missions, in un-armored Hummers. Meanwhile, the Marines had armored 8x8 LAV-25s, and the Moroccans had French-built 4x4 armored cars. As a cadet, I had written a paper advocating a medium weight, motorized option - between the heavy armored forces (hard to deploy) and the light infantry (quick to deploy but limited in firepower and tactical mobility). I was happy when the Army - finally - got the 8x8 Stryker derivative of the LAV-25.
I was one of those Marines there in Somalia. We were in Mogadishu and Baidoa.
As an MP Squad Leader in OIF 3 2004/2005, Baghdad. I was given one for my squad. The tow chain hook serial # was 113. So I received the 113th ASV made. It was the best vehicle to lead convoys. But it isn’t the best vehicle to take up the rear of the convoy. You can’t aim your guns too far down or it automatically cuts off so you don’t shoot up the back deck of the M1117. So it has its limitations as well. All in all, the best vehicle, IMO, to patrol and guide convoys through Iraq. As long as you aren’t the rear gun truck that is. Great job, Chris!
We got these on our 3rd deployment. We were doing convoys from the Jordanian border. 12+ hours a day, cruising up abs down ied filled highways. The ASV was a huge upgrade over the humvees. More comfortable, better air conditioning, and we could wire our iPod into the trucks intercom. Some guys twit disliked the things, but i really kinda loved them.
These were very capable and proven vehicles during GWOT. We had one per squad in Iraq from 05-06'. They were very maneuverable, had impressive protection and shrugged off many threats that would have crippled a HMMWV. They were also great for static defense.
That being said, mechanically they sometimes were difficult to maintain and typically required contractor expertise for many repairs. The turret while powerful and flexible when equipped with the 50cal + MK19, it could prove challenging to engage targets on the move due to not being stabilized.
I'm fairly certain that these were supposed to be integrated into MP units for the Iraq invasion but many weren't due to the limited numbers mentioned in this video. At least that was the explanation I was given for why 1 out of 3 of our HMMWV's were soft skin, they were supposed to be replaced by M117s
It was a Cadillac in terms of creature comforts, interior space, and internal coms. It also was just a blast to drive with the hatches open and seats raised to pop your head out of the vehicle while inside the wire.
Is this not themowag pirana in us clothes built by general motors.
Hmm weird only lets me respond to comments s make my own
When they ran, they were good, when not, they were really not good mechanically.
My great uncle served in Nam and drove Cadillac Gage Commando, they usually used to Commandos for convoy escort, infantry support in low intensity engagements and also they worked great if paired with an ACAV, and/or a Sheridan light tank.
And they had fantastic paintings/Nose Art, have a Vid in my Vietnam Favorites, wounderful paintings.
The Caddy Gage Commando is 3rd on my list of Wheeled arm. Vehicles, 1st is Brits Ferret Scout car MkI/II "the race car" , 2nd brits Saracen APC, 3rd Vietnam era Commando, 4th german recon 8 wheel Luchs from the 80s 90s, it shares the 4th place with Brits Saladin.
Wish i had enough money to buy them all and drive thru the Woods, grow up with that Stuff exception the Commando never saw one on the Streets, Fields and Woods, the Brit stuff we played in every Autumn manouvre.
later joined naval infantry with 19 yrs sadly no Armoured stuff in our units only 1,5t Unimogs and MAN 5t Trucks :(
I have owned four V-100s, a Ferret, and Saladin. The Saladin was very cool but crazy complex. That was the beauty of the V-100s. Very simple to maintain. @@Sturminfantrist
The Textron plant was right near me in Louisiana during the production run after 1998. Their HQ was actually in Slidell, along with some part of the production after Katrina. The Slidell facility did get some flooding, as half of Slidell was under water, but it was toward the edge of the major flooded areas of Slidell, so was able to take over some of the production fairly quickly.
Up until the Iraq invasion they were almost exclusively used by MP units.
Wow. It sounds like this is the main vehicle we should have been using all along. I remember when I saw a whole motorpool full of these. I'd served 9 years and I'd never seen them before. Thanks, Cap!
My unit in Canada has them and they're terrible. Not for the armored part but for the Vehicle part. They'll roll over if you look at them weird and the brakes are pretty bad. It's even worst if you use them off road or in snowy condition which as you can guess we have a lot of. If you search youtube for "Canadian TAPV Roll-over" you can even see one loose control just because the road was wet
much of the running gear was pulled straight from the 5 ton. And, as gab above said, that included the brakes that then had a very hard time stopping a 13 ton armored vehicle. In addition, the Cummins engine was woefully under powered for the weight. Sure, it has a top speed of 60mph, but it takes a week to get there. The armor was completely useless against EFPs, the primary IED of the part of Iraq I was in. We took to calling the ASV the Kevlar Coffin as EFPs turned them into swiss cheese.
We turned them down because
1. Gunners didn't want to give up the vision you get being able to lean out
2. Low hanging wire in the neighborhoods we had to go into
We rather worry about getting hit on Michigan and Irish 😂
Ah man I always like this type of armored car. Just like the V-150 used in the Vietnam war.
Served as a V-100 crewman during America’s Southeast Asia Adventure. My advice to current crew members, be sure to have the drain plugs in Before you try amphibious operations! 😮
Yes, the drain plugs are very necessary! From another RVN vet.
I saw a video of some dumb Russians in Ukraine in a BTR or BMP going into a some body of water but the dude didn’t put the hatch down and water flooded the whole inside of the vehicle. Then after it was all flooded he decided to shut the lid. They definitely aren’t sending their smartest.
@@tannerbarsness9992😂😂😂😂😂
Cappy, your grandpas repeating, ‘… ours is not to reason why, but to do or die…’, is from Alfred Lord Tennyson’s poem, ‘The Charge of the Light Brigade’. Timeless and broadly used.
Great reporting.
I want one to go shopping in. No dimples or scratches will be carelessly left on my paintwork.
Crappy Cappy
Fun note for those interested. Canada's TAPV (Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle) is a heavier armoured upgrade based on the M1117 (with some problems encountered with early vehicles delaying the full role out such as technical issues). Will it replace the LUVW SMP (G-Wagon), no as its main duties are reconnaissance (Canadian Armed Forces YT has a video for Armoured Recce involving said vehicle), troop transport, command & control, VIP transport, patrolling, and military police duties). What it will replace is the RG-31 Nyala which to my knowledge was only really used in Afghanistan and the Coyote reconnaissance vehicles (LAV II) in the reconnaissance role.
Even though the G-wagon (is comparable to the British Land Rover aka the "Mobile Coffin" or HMMWV/Humvee. M1113 SOV and Up-Armored variants are only used by Canadian Special Operations Forces Command) does have an armoured kit that can be fitted (or removed) in 8 hours by three soldiers. Think god though that its being replaced under the Light Utility Vehicle program (Ya, vehicles possessing built-in or bolt-on armour protection from IEDs and small arms fire).
TAPV was made by a committee, that’s why it failed
They should have went with proven platform like German, South African or even Spanish medium wheeled RECCE vehicle
@@mrdynamic8678 The biggest problems that limit the TAPV's capabilities as a recce vehicle are height and lack of manoeuvrability. But then again, the TAPV was purchased under an Urgent Operational Requirement to supply Canadian troops in Afghanistan with a route-proving and patrol vehicle with better armour protection than the M1117 could provide, and would also provide vastly better protection that the Iltis jeeps that were previously used in this role.
I've recently come across some information that indicates the TAPVs are going to be re-roled from armoured recce to an armoured cavalry role, mainly in reserve units. How well this will work out in practice remains to be seen. The LAV 6.0 recce variants will likely replace the TAPV in the Regular Force.
If it were up to me, I would have selected the Dutch-made Fennek for traditional 'mud-recce' taskings if it had better mine and IED protection. It is small, stealthy and has roughly the same weapons and sensor systems. Unfortunately, the Fennek hasn't been in production for a long time now.
I started out as a cold war 11B in the early -80's on M113's. During this time we watched the Bundeswehr deploy in Marders (tracked) and the Spahpanzer Fuchs (wheeled recon.), while the DDR, Soviets, and other ComBloc fielded both tracked (BMP) and wheeled (BTR's, BRDM's, OTR's, etc....). Wheeled with light to medium armor do have a place on today's battlefield - and probably would have had a place in the '80's. In early OEF we mainly used Toyota Surf as there were insufficient HMMWV's. This would have been nice to have. Great video Cappy.
South Africa had the Ratel, which first action in 1978.
Performed very well in its intended role when dealing with a non-conventional war.
Long distance vehicle with modularity in mind to mount different weapon systems.
The shortcomings of the Hummer were well known at the time of introduction. But the hummers were the follow on to the very soft, small and light M151 and the WW2 era Jeep. So its flat bottom no armor self seemed suitable to replace its predecessors. As it turned out it was pushed into a role that it was never designed to fulfill and was flexible enough to be uparmoured but its inherit design limitations (a flat bottom) were never overcome
Back in 1980 when I became an MP all we had were gun jeeps, M151 w/M60 (lovingly called The Pig) we graduated to open HMMWV’s then received turtlebacks and finally ASV’s much much later. Meanwhile the Air Force had Peacekeepers (armored Dodge 880 pickups) and V100’s. The Be All You Can Be army I joined you were either a heavy (meaning tracks) or a light fighter in LPC’s (leather personnel carriers). We still had Vietnam vets who had used V-100’s and gun-trucks. The brass refused everything about us needing armor. The M151 armor kits sat unissued in a CONEX until disposed of.
I was a USAF Security Policeman, and the PK was a complete piece of excrement. It was also built on a commercial Dodge Ram Charger frame. I've bounced up and down on sprung floors in PKs where the weld at the rear had completely broken away from the rear Armored plate. WW-2 vintage M-3 scout cars with their open topped design were superior in every way to the PK on the day the first one of those underengineered POE's rolled off of the Cadillac Gage assembly line in 1979.
Initially I was skeptical about the way these videos are produced, but I've slowly grown to appreciate the hot takes and high production/research value that you bring to the table on the decision making process that leads to some of the weapons systems we see deployed around the world - thanks man and keep up the great content!
Thank you for posting this video. I feel like I need to clarify some things & hopefully shed some light on this vehicle. At the end of 2005 I’m one of two people that was responsible for the design, testing & implementation of an up-armored Fragmentation kit for the M1117 that protected the vehicle from IED’s & some EFP’s. Textron New Orleans received the requirements for The MRAP and management determined that we could not meet the more stringent requirements and choose not to bid. However the powers that be at Mother Textron in Province, RI. Made us provide vehicles at the very last minute. These vehicles were tested and failed miserably. This failure led the Army to look more closely at the M1117’s limitations. To put things in a better perspective, the Canadian TAPV comes close, but would not meet the requirements of the MRAP. The newer family of vehicles do have & are outfitted with many ongoing improvements to enhance protection today.
Also, you sit next to the wheel well, MRAP you sit above or behind the wheel well.
My asv was vaporized by an efp nov2009. Everyone survived. Tyvm!
I’m glad to hear that everyone survived. ASV was always better than a Humvee.
I road the V-100’s from 68-72 I had 60’s 50’s even a 106 recoilless rifle. Had RPG’s glance of the angle plate and the solid wheels lost rubber to mines but still moved on at least 9 countries have generations of this vehicle.
We used the 706 Commandos in the Air Force in at Howard in Panama in the late 70's and early 80's. Had them at Clark in the Philippines also. Nice vehicles.
In A'stan, I think in 2010, we stopped using these due to their being relatively vulnerable to IEDs there. Then we gave them to the ANA. I think the issue was that it wasn't a purpose-built MRAP, with the same level of IED protection as the MRAPS, and an IED of not-all-that-big size going off under it would readily penetrate. It 'looks' like it might be proof against IEDs/mines, but most of its survivability (compared to uparmored HMMWVs) came from its height/ground clearance, not a true v-hull as found on the MRAPs.
When 101st fielded the M1200 FIST vehicle (1x per recon troop or infantry company), I asked the techs running our NET what vehicle was needed to recover this if it became significantly mired. They said an M88. They didn't have much of an answer when I noted that our entire brigade didn't have a single M88. We were a LIGHT infantry brigade combat team. Never mind that this was the largest troop maneuver vehicle and stood out like a sore thumb, or that it created a singular maintenance headache.
I also think you are confusing variants. None of the US versions I saw had the troop capacity you mentioned. I'd like to hear if anyone else saw those that could seat 8 plus crew. I never knew them to seat more than 2 passengers beyond the crew, and it wasn't comfortable or spacious, but I have no real first-hand knowledge. The M1200 only had a crew of 3, I think, and no other room.
Making military grade equipment is so difficult. Deferent equipment for different scenarios with SO MANY scenarios that can pop up. It's no wonder the materiel that is so custom and proprietary is SO EXPENSIVE. Great insight in the episode.
Very good clip, Cappy! These vehicles led the way on convoys while in the sandbox. They are survivable against IED’s, but the soldiers were still messed up with armor punctures (shrapnel) and spine compression injuries. They’re waaay better than HMMWV’s for combat. The MRAPs are pretty much the next upgrade-although I’d like to see an enclosed turret like the ASV has instead of a gunner up top (who’s exposed to bouncing Betty mines, rollovers, etc).
Keep up the good work! I watch every one of your videos.
The ASV was awesome, the commanders seat was probably the most comfortable place to be on a long convoy.
We used rubber gym floor mats taped into our plastic flap doors to drive from Kuwait to Balad in 04 (first replacement cycle) - not the most pleasant drive but we made it without issue other than a trailer flip. As someone in signal we were all very happy to have 25th ID riding convoy leapfrog security for our BN's convoy - same with the overhead air support we had flying up and down our nearly 700-800 piece convoy.
But because we were signal our Humvees had crazy suspension and engines as they had huge shelters on the back - made for great "fabricated" up-armor kits. I eventually saw one from my Company near Syrian border in 08.
I love your objective and analytical takes on all things military. Keep doing what you're doing. Proud to be a spare part.
I operated one out of Bagram in 2007.
Fantastic light armor. Very mobile off road. Very fast. Wish they made a 5ton version with a larger cargo space in the back.
SA is alittle restricted. Even in the turret. The turrret is the same as the marine AAV. It’s full manual with a periscope. But it’s fully enclosed. Even has night vision.
At least one of the textron facilities building this vehicle was in my home town of Slidell, just across the lake from New Orleans and yeah Katrina demolished my city. The textron plant on front st. was in a low lying area prone to flood and they had probably 15 feet of water give or take. I remember when they were cranking these out one after another bc you would see them being transported on 18 wheelers all the time and still occasionally do see them being transported through town although I'm not sure why bc I thought the plant closed down.
hmm... maybe Ukraine got more from US as Aid?
then again some nations are still using it...
First vehicle I crew on during my time in Iraq. Ended in one deployment to be on m1117, m1151, Max Pro and an RG 33. I got swapped around during the middle of the deployment over folks going on leave as a driver and gunner. Fun times. But the M1117 largest downside was lack of stabilized turret. Off road on the move, forget hitting anything as it's even worse than free handing a .50. The power traverse was a freaking .25 cent toggle switch which I found very odd coupled with ww2 feeling traverse hand wheels. Very strange after being on Bradley's. But automotive wise and off road, not that bad. Max Pro you hit loose sand you would be stuck, the m1117 you had a chance to get through it. Hit the lessen tire pressure button, get out of the obstacle, reinflate tire for hard ball. I liked the vehicle in terms of it being a 2 axled armored box. Better in some way over the m1151 and Max pro. But it seriously needs a better turret and armament. Turret is one-man cramped poop show with body armor on. Can easily get stuck on things going in or out of the hatch which can have lethal side effects. Loading the mk19 was awkward, with the 50 being a bit easier if memory serves. But that NO stabilization was daft. You end up with what is in effect a ww2 armored car with a worse armament with basic light amplification sights. Whatever bean counters came up with that, shame on you.
How does the tire deflation and inflation work?
@rob6850 air go out, air go in.
Ok but seriously - most military wheeled vehicles carry compressed air, so they can refill on the fly. This can also help with if the tyre has a bullet hole in it - they can just keep pumping more air in to keep the wheel up despite damage to it for short durations.
Your experience is what would benefit an armored vehicle manufacturer - As a Maintenance Technician I swear some things are designed by someone who hates Maintenance Technicians ..... and not by a little; like the designer was severely hurt by some Maintenance Tech in the past, and this was their way of getting back at all of them.😁
@@jgw9990 how does a valve connect to a spinning wheel though?
@@rob6850 Dunno. Ask one of the engineers. It works somehow.
Thanks for this, I’ve been putting a model of one together for some time now, and reference material for the vehicle is quite rare.
We have these in Canada, called the TAPV. Almost every dislikes them, lots of problems, not enough room from crew, and the leadership is actively scrambling to figure out what to do with them and shuffling them around because nobody really wants them. Better to get a LAV which can also carry dismounts
Send them to Ukraine then
@@mysterioanonymous3206 We should, as long as we have an immediate replacement (which won't happen)
@@JCRF why do you need a replacement immediately? Who do you expect Canada to fight? The US? 😂
@@mysterioanonymous3206 No, but if we have a military it might as well be well funded and equipped or else what's the point
I don't care what anyone says about the ASV, I loved mine and I stand by it. It was built to speed to the front lines and back and was designed for MPs. Route recon. Fording rivers. Rushing a high value prisoner to the rear to be exploited. Enough armor and armament to not be caught off gaurd on its own. I swear if some engineers gave that thing a redesign or a little but of updating it could still be a viable vehicle. People that hate it forget it wasn't designed for Iraq or Afghanistan wars per se. It also was what we had on hand and was already in need of updates. I did all the operator required maintenance on mine and it never failed me. I also laugh at when people put it in the wrong spot in convoys or got pissy about its turret. Of course when it's not in open ground, and alongside open turret vehicles. The M117 is a cold war holdover that worked for its intended purpose.
The Philippines have this, The American V150 commando in service with the Philippine Army to fight insurgency across ph archipelago, and Philippines have Bradley too called the M113.
The M113 is not a Bradley. M113 is a lightly armored APC; the Bradley is a series of fairly heavily-armored IFV, and uses an entirely different hull, and was developed and produced decades later.
The M113 is the Gavin tracked APC. The AFP has no Bradley IFVs, just upgraded Gavins with the CROWS turrets.
@@Ryan_Christopher >Gavins
The M113 doesn't have a name. Get that Mike Sparks shit outta here, lmao.
I miss my m1200 knight, was definitely a vibe.
My platoon was out multiple times a day on IED calls for months in Iraq in 2003-04 with nothing but soft shell vehicles before the first 1114 showed up. Even then there were only 2 per platoon, one for the PL and one for the platoon sergeant. It's a miracle we aren't all dead
Just because we appear to be living doesn't mean we actually are
@@ladypiperfaye well, I for one am alive anyway
@@dannybell926 that is awesome, enjoy that
@@ladypiperfayethat hits pretty hard.
The true question becomes “did I really die in that IED and this is Hell, or has tbe world completely broken this badly?”
We had 2 per platoon in our infantry company in Iraq as lead scout vehicles. Our company had one M1114 HMMV with a mine roller got hit. The crew was shaken but the vehicle damaged not too bad the mine roller did it's job, that was mid tour from 1st Platoon. In my platoon we had our M1117 hit an AP mine that was command detonated and the front wheels were flattened on both sides but the belly plate was not penetrated but only scratched the paint. Crew survived along with our medic riding with them. This happened on Route Tampa just South of Mosul in March 2008. The crew got lucky that they didn't flip.
There is a story about an ASV hit by a mine, rolled over 360⁰ and landing upright on its wheels, that proceeded to continue and complete the mission. Perhaps apocryphal, but they are tough vehicles.
Good old MSR Tampa!
When the South Vietnamese put a V100 at the front of convoys, the rate of ambushes declined significantly. One American advisor recalled questioning the value of this tactic and was sceptical but he happily ate humble pie when he saw the impact the machine guns and grenade launchers carried had on insurgent sabotage groups first hand. The reports from Vietnamese infantry and convoy drivers, as well as V100 crews were glowing.
Excellent summary and analysis. Kudos. You keep your comments grounded and interesting.
We had these in my MP unit until probably late 2020, only used them a few times but they were pretty cool. .50 cal and mk19 could fit in the turret at the same time, so decent firepower. Also it has an air filtration system to help against CBRN attacks
In the 1970’s the Detroit police used the Cadillac Gage version on the streets for patrolling. It used to be common to see them.
We used the V100 and V150 in the 70s. Great vehicles.
Very interesting. SADF during the 'Bush War' also developed these types of vehicles around the mid '70's, leaning towards non tracked, armored, and heavily mine resistant options.
I'm sure the modern stuff is more tech kitted and capable, but for the time they were awesome. Later versions are still current and used today.
The Buffel (transport), Ratel (IFV).
Arguably the Rhodesians also inspired a lot of the thinking with their efforts although the the War on SWA and Angola border was far more suited to Mechanized assualt.. The SADF Ratels, in their various configs formed the foundation of mechanized assault with gun up to 90mm and also AT missile variant (Ratel Z-T3)
well... US literally ported the SA MRAPs for the Afghan problem... that's why all the gen 1 US MRAPs are just trucks with a V-hull armoured unibody rollover prone "coffin buddies"... at least it's relative good against IEDs.
Yes, reminded me of the Ratel, mine resistant and highly mobile but light armor.
Hey so i wanted to tell u that the ratal was not a light armor vehicle it was not the heaviest armor vehicle it was more in between ligth and heavy enjoy your day😊
I was in Kuwait during the invasion running generators, the Army would come to our shop and go through our scrap metal bins just to add to their hummers. It was sad to see and the one troop that spoke up to one of the politician(I can’t remember who) and things started to change.
You do a great job covering on going conflicts but I love videos like these
When I was stationed at Ft. Wainwright, AK in 2014-2017 I remember seeing a handful of these parked in a distant far-off motor pool in a forgotten corner of the base. I was told that the MP's were signed for them and that they never moved lol
Yes, "production" was a reason it was out of the competition, but that's not all. It was due to the parts availability and the ease, cost, and time of repair! The engine being in the rear and having to be taken almost completely apart to repair minor things was an issue- it was not easily accessible to fix. The repairing of the armor plates and turret part was another. Additionally, if something happened to the turret, it was almost always deadlines until fixed, which often require it being taken off. Lastly, although it had somewhat of turret retainers, during a bigger blast or rollover the turret was prone to popping out or breaking, usually requiring a new turret which required being sent out of operation for long durations of time to specialized mechanics.
Looks just like a South African Ratel. Amazing vehicle
Looks similar but the Ratel has 6 wheels, does not have the neat modular armor on the sides, has better armor on the bottom, and has many gun ports. Ratel is better at surviving mines and IEDs/mines and fighting multiple targets without asking their soldiers to expose themselves. The M1117 is far better a surviving side hits from small arms and at least gives it a chance of deflecting some modern RPGs.
November 10, 2023 - I never gave much thought as to why the M1117 wasn't used more by the Army and other services. As usual, Cappy has done a great job answering a question which many of us never really thougt to ask. I offer my prayers ✝🙏🏽 for those service members that died and suffered injuries, because the Defense Department didn't give them the equipment necessary to survive doing their jobs.🤨 Another example of the Military learning the hard way, at the expense of service members lives.
I THINK YOU NEED TO LOOK UP STH FOR CORRECTION: I am pretty sure that not a single M1117 has been visually confirmed in Ukraine so far which indicates that they have not been delivered yet and also I think they were mentioned in news reports that there is a (makor) delay with the delivery.
Ukraine could really hace used these to protect troops from shrapnell during the counter offensive, it is a real shame these have not been delivered yet.
Yeah, they are delayed for late 2024...
It's a shame these things weren't as developed or as widely used in the US. Had a couple of them in the back of our motorpool that had been sitting for years and were never touched or maintained for as long as I had been at the unit. I always wondered what they were even there for or what they even were in the first place. Pretty cool lookin vehicle though. Great video!
I was expecting a mention on the chaimite... :( originally an unlicensed copy, saw some 600 produced by portuguese company Bravia for domestic use but also for a respectable number of international customers. The reason for this was that the country was at war, and Americans refused to sell the vehicle for use in war, so, somehow, they got a couple of staff who have worked on the American vehicle and even managed to bring one unit along. The use in war ended up being very limited but it became famous has a symbol of the revolution who ended dictatorship and the war in Africa. After that, the story didn't end, with portuguese forces sending the vehicle to multiple international missions. Its still in limited service, with some special nonstandard versions, although its mostly replaced by the Pandur II since 2008ish.
The Philippine Army purchased 20 Bravia chaimites back in the 70's and has since been decommissioned after being replaced by the V150 Commandoes from US.
Another great video from Cappy & Co.
However, as a life-long Masshole...I admit that I was SHOCKED to hear that many armored vehicles are produced within the People's Republic of Massachusetts.
Part of me want's to point this out to my "representatives"...but most of me wants to be quiet and ensure that the people defending me get the BEST!
I mean this thing seems far better than a HUMVE for most modern combat roles. Not all but, most.
In 1988 I attended a fair where the USAF had armored truck (not humvee based) with M-60 on top, as base security response vehicle. Interesting how USAF cared more about their SP's than army about any of it's soldiers. Speed works for safety in open terrain/wilderness, but urban ops limit routes to on streets only.
Air Force also has a bigger budget and can afford a lot of the gear.
What you were looking at was the Cadillac Gage Ranger/Truck, Armored Convoy/Peace Keeper or PK as we Security Policemen called it. The thing was an underengineered piece Dodge Ram Charger based Garbage. It was so poorly designed that we SPs considered it a death trap. We weren't allowed to go over 25 mph on the gravel roads in the misslie field (on some roads, we slowed down to half that to keep it from rolling over). If you were unlucky enough to be in a rollover in one (even if everyone is inside and not in the turret), you were guaranteed an injury requiring a hospital visit and possibly a stay. Having seen borh in use as a USAF Security Policeman, the Cadillac Gage Command/XM-706/Duck was a far better vehicle. My only issue with the 706 was Cadillac Gage's decision to power it with a Mopar 360 cuin gasoline engine. Not only are Mopar engines absolute junk, gasoline has a nasty habit of blowing up when on fire, a property that diesel fuel doesn't have.
@earlwyss520 I don't know what it was. But simply the fact USAF gave SPs armored vehicles 5 years before battle of Mogadishu and 15 years before Iraq invasion when basic soldiers weren't given ANY armor protection AT ALL, just angers me. Maybe it wasn't best vehicle, but sending men into battle without any armor protection despite decades of experience was just wrong.
@STB-jh7od Our PKs had 1980-1982 reg numbers, so we were operating them for over a decade before the battle of Mogadishu. When I got to my first duty assignment in 1988, we were still using 1969 reg numbered XM-706E2s.
In 1993, when the Battle of Mogadishu was happening, I was stationed at RAF Upper Heyford. The base was closing, and we had dozens of SP PKs and EOD M-113s just sitting on the ramp waiting to be sent somewhere else.
@earlwyss520 best part was they were letting kids/teens shoot 5 round bursts of blanks, when I got my turn no one was behind me so they let me rock and roll the last 20some rounds! Put a huge smile on my 17yo face.
Love this video, I've seen and heard of the guardian a couple times but never understood it's purpose thanks for the video.
Looks quite similar to some BTR's and BRDM's.
Chris, there was a first generation pre-cursor vehicle to the Guardian. The first-generation ASV was designed as an MP support vehicle. It was neither expected nor designed to be a troop carrier. The first generation vehicle was way too small. They only had enough room for crew gear.
In 2003, I worked for the Combat Development Section at the MP School. I had the honor and pleasure of working for long-retired Major Carson, who while on active duty in the late 80s or 90s was the combat developer for the ASV. Basically given no guidance beyond 'Design a modern replacement for the VO-100,' he first did a thorough literature research, including into counterinsurgency operations in South Africa, where the IED threat was real. Then-MAJ Carson realized that although no one in the Army was talking about land mine warfare, the ASV needed the V-hull design to defeat the IED threat, along with hydraulic seats to protect the crew when an IED would literally blow the vehicle into the air. No sense designing a vehicle that survived the explosion but broke the spine of crew members! (This design feature was later incorporated into the hanging seats in the MRAPs.) Since MP officers have no training in armored vehicle design, MAJ Carson spent several weeks and several visits to Tank and Automotive Command in Detroit to develop specifications for the vehicle. He told me the TACOM folks were impressed and pleased with the well-thought specs, as the vehicle was developed with few major problems, went quickly through testing, had an exceptionally soft ride, and proved to be successful in its intended role. As convoy support vehicles, Iraqi insurgents were reluctant to attack convoys with direct sniper fire or close quarters battle when accompanied by one or more ASVs.
Somebody, I assume the Infantry School, developed the larger troop carrier variant. It's clear that 90% or more of the Guardian is based on the MP ASV. MAJ Carson's foresight and wisdom in designing the ASV paid dividends to all the future infantrymen riding around in the Guardian. I retired in 1998 so I never rode in either vehicle. I'm personally glad the Guardian has been so successful.
Great video, too.
There is a story about an ASV hit by a mine, rolled over 360⁰, landing upright on its wheels, that proceeded to continue and complete the mission. Perhaps apocryphal, but they are tough vehicles.
Part of the design was to give MPs a bit more fire power against a potential near peer threat initially as well. Idea being as we were moving and supporting Armor Advances on the flanks if we ran into something soft HMMWVs could not fight we could at least potentially break the tracks and run away. Obviously in hindsight that would have still been bad news for the MP Patrol. Angry Tank/Troop Transport that cant move but still shoot is going to return the favor.
@VLAPredz, you're right. MP like(d) their .50 caliber Ma Deuces but ASVs had Mk19 grenade launchers. M2 rounds would travel through a target area and cause unintended damage far beyond the target. Per my boss, Mk19 range is 2,200 yards, well beyond small arms range but limited in range, because the MP mission is different than the Infantry. mission. Make sense, or was your experience different?
@@deanna9243 Sadly my combat experience with them was limited to OIF and at the time we were well into the policing phase so the Mk 19 was basically just for show. Later on there were some turret variants we(MPs) could mount things like dual M240s but my unit never got the upgraded turrets. As for the Missions being different there was alot of overlap between Infantry and MP in OIF. Infantry Objective is to find and kill the enemy. MPs primary role is to safeguard the force. Protect/escort convoys/supplies being a big role.
@VLAPredz I'm glad you made it home safely!
If you wonder why American vehicles are typically in desert color, it's because that's the base primer that is ready for additional camo paint when they arrive to their destination. It doesn't mean they stay that color.
Matvs, maxxpros, caimans, along with up armored Humvees were always our chariots oconus during the later OEF years in our line units. But always thought these may have been better suited in more scenarios than they took part in with maybe some small mods here and there.
Tracks or wheels... The eternal struggle. They both have pros and cons.
Massive con for wheels is - mud. And Ukraine has unbelievable amounts of it! It is so thick that even tracked vehicles get stuck, which means wheeled ones are in even worse situation. However, if they keep to hard surfaces (roads etc), these will work just fine...
Yeah but roads are easy to pre-target with artillery, as we saw in the aborted Thunder Runs to Kyiv at the beginning.
In 06-07 we used ASV’s and LMTV’s as gun trucks. The problem with the ASV was that the fuel tanks were in the front, second if you was wearing body armor in the driver’s seat or the TC’s seat you could not get out through the driver’s or the TC’s hatch, the only way out was to unlatch the driver’s seat fold it down and crawl to the back and go out the side door(a lot of times they wouldn’t wear their body armor, so they could get out easier). So when the ASV got hit by an IED on the TC’s side, it would disable the vehicle, it always caught on fire and the TC was usually injured bad enough that he needed help, or he was unconscious, or he was dead. Depending on what condition the driver was in dictated what was going to happen to the TC. Usually the gunner would help the driver climb out if he was injured, then they would try to get the TC out through the tight space if he was injured or dead, usually the fire burned him up. All three of the times that I saw an ASV get hit on the TC’s side and it caught fire, the TC died a terrible death. All of the ASV gunners always had problems with visibility. It was difficult.for them to watch their area of responsibility or spot and shoot targets in fire fights. This was what I saw and experience, maybe everybody else was just luckier then others not to experience what I saw.
Unfortunately Ukraine hasn't gotten these yet. Report back in September said they will require another 18 months before delivery. *eye roll*
Humvee was great --- in a reasonable role. That's why you stockpile a range of equipment from heavy to light.
I see T&P video, I watch. Keep 'em coming Chris! Top notch content as always!
Great vid, Chris! Thanks!
Tremendous analysis chappy! I thought I knew everything about the M117.
It was mostly used for Military Police and Convoy Security duties so it was not seen as an normal Infantry vehicle.
Because it was deigned for MPs! Historical fact!
Nice video Chris! We have it in Greece we are very happy about! I think we are using it for getting faster in areas that are in trouble or will be! I hope they can get a light energetic self protection system like trophy ( exist already light versions ) and something against loitering ammunition and drones and it will be much more effective in the modern battlefield!
love the channel, thanks for your service
This sounds like the greatest US military vehicle that I’ve never heard of
Sadly, the US hasn’t delivered these to Ukraine yet. They promised 250 last year under USAI program but that requires building them new rather than using presidential drawdown authority to send from existing stocks
Another hood classic from cappy cheers from down under 🤙
Respect to all that have and still serve their country.
No lie, I didn't even know these existed. This is all news to me. They certainly look like a better option than a humvee.
In 2004 I was sitting in an IED/ counterinsurgency "death by PowerPoint" presentation when it dawned on me that one day these lessons would be used to suppress the American people. That was the moment my heart left the Army, and I have never been happy to see mil tech since.
I'm sure we have sufficient armour piercing weapons in our closets ...
As is your right
But the cool thing about those videos, they also showed us how to make IEDs for an insurgency.
Great report T& P team!
GOOD JOB-CHRIS--You highlight, again, how, i the end, the military is ALWAYS fighting the LAST WAR-Cheers
Chris I am not sure if the audience appreciates the amount of research and preparation you must do to produce a video like this. It's just amazing and I wouldn't be surprised if you find out some folks in the military use your videos as teaching aids or for meetings.
Any experience how the M1117 handles compared to the HUMVEE replacement?
BTW great documentation!
That vehicle is so small and tight I barely fit in it. The Canadians got the TAPV which is a little bigger. Over all this is an excellent vehicle for the job it does.
6:53 The guys i spoke to that removed the doors said it was because the doors got stuck after ied/rpg impact, making the humvee a prison.
I've never heard a guy say they removed the doors for ''extra speed''.
never thought id hear you quoting poetry charge of the light brigade
Thanks for all your hard work brother!
My favorite content creator
Really interesting. Never realised it was such a useful and serious operational vehicle, or even that it compares so well to the MRAP. Always thought it was money-saving joke. Thanks for the info! Definitely a vehicle type worth considering instead of light utility vehicles for forward rear areas.
*Ch-53... Love the content dude you keep this ex squaddie from across the pond happy every time your notification comes thru!
I've always liked the Commando series and thought they were badly underutilized. Before GWOT, the few in Army inventory were used by the MPs. Would it be accurate to say that their use has become as 'Stryker Lite'?
I preferred the knight varaint the best
I didn’t know this vehicle excited. Looks awesome!
In modern war the frontline is everywhere. Top on the list of logistics staff would be an armored fuel truck, but that one seems difficult to pull off.
Amazing work again Cappy!
All the ASVs I saw and used in Iraq had a Tow bar attached to it. It wasn't a matter of if they broke down. It was a matter of when they broke down.
There cooling system was junk.
i was in a MP unit in S. Korea. i loved my ASV