I would like to thank you Rip for teaching me how to properly place the bar and how to position myself doing the squat. It have helped me a lot and my knees don't hurt anymore!
This is amazing, thank you so much. I wonder why I feel my hamstrings so much during a squat, and I’m doing the squat with great form and never feel injured or uncomfortable during my squat, and I almost feel my hamstrings just as much as my quads. It feels great. What a great teacher
I’m afraid of sneezing when I see these fine videos. This is exactly what I was looking for, I had been doing high bar A2G for some time until I hit a plateau. I switched to low bar, my numbers went up significantly with full ROM, got sick. Took a week off. I went back to the gym and my Hams and glutes are EXTREMELY SORE. Thank you so much Mark Rippetoe for sharing this wonderful information with the world. God bless you 🙌
the hamstring doesnt ataches to the femur's extremes, it does on the isquial tuberosity, wich gets closer to de knee as the hip flex, hamstring length cannot be a function o femur length, because femurs length is constant for a determinated individual, and in that case it wouldnt be able to produce concentric nor excentric contraccion.
If you are saying the hamstring works greater in a longer position than it negates your theory on “use of muscles” assuming you are talking about concentric motion. That tricky thing is that the hamstring does not work concentrically during the squat. What is the hamstring doing while the weight is moving against gravity? It’s not shortening. It’s creating a tension force for the quad to contract against.
If a muscle is shorter as drawn in the high bar then it’s working more in the relationship of concentric eccentric. You would then have to say you are using it’s “muscle mass” greater in the front squat/high bar. However, the hamstring does not shorten when the weight is being lifted. Force will be produced from muscles that shorten not elongate. Elongating muscles let the movers push against something.
When does the hamstring work in a concentric manner during a squat? Does it pull the weight to the ground? There are better muscles in the hip to extend it upon standing up so the shortening for hamstring at hip extension is not valid.
Ever since I was in high school when I squat my hamstrings and ass are extremely sore and I really have minimal soreness in my quadriceps. Can anyone tell me am I doing something wrong or am I doing something right I don’t know???
I agree with everything Rip is saying, but I'm hung up on the redundancy. The lowbar squat position looks very similar to a conventional deadlift, bent-over row, etc. That being said, my concern is not applicable to Rip's novice program as he doesn't program rows and prescribes only one set of deadlifts a week.
You're simbly reffering to the position of the back, in wich you are infact wrong. It's not like a deadlift or row at all. You're much more bent over in those exercises than in squat. You feel bendt over alot in a low bar squat, but not that much.
Yes, the body position is somewhat similar, but the mechanics in terms of the forces are very different. In the squat the weight force is applied directly above the feet, yet in the deadlift (and row) it is in front of the foot. Those involve a torque not present in the squat
It's been done at length. Just below parallel gives the most muscles involved in the lift over the greatest range of motion. Going much further below parallel can unload the hamstrings and potentially cause issues with the knees.
What!!! That is precisely what he is talking about!! Back squatting below parallel---or what do you think he is referring to with all he said?? My fucking god, seriously!!
If I have extremely tight hamstrings. Can't even pass by my knees when I wan't to touch my toes. Should I do flexing or mobilization exercises before or deadlifting would fix the problem?
You can use more weight in a low-bar squat not because you use more hamstrings but because placing the bar lower creates a leverage advantage. That's the point - to be able to lift more in competition. The hamstrings are used very little in the squat. Their purpose is to stabilize the knee. Only at the end of the squat will the hamstrings contribute to extend the hip. Trying to turn the squat into a hamstring exercise is counterproductive and unnecessary given all the hamstring exercises out there THAT ARE ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE AT WORKING THE HAMSTRINGS. Squat to develop quads and glutes, do another exercise for hamstrings.
@@startingstrength From the following: instagram.com/p/BMqTK-Qj6QD/ "Although few strength coaches would program the squat deliberately for training the hamstrings, it bears repeating that hamstrings activation (and therefore also involvement) in the squat is fairly low. This is for two reasons. Firstly, some strength coaches still maintain that there is a key role for the hamstrings in the squat, because they can feel a sensation in the posterior thigh when doing the exercise, especially at the bottom of the lift. In reality, it is more likely that the muscle they can feel is in fact the adductor magnus, which is likely the main hip extensor at this point in the movement. Secondly, the squat tends to be used extensively to prepare athletes for sprinting. However, many studies have shown that the hamstrings are likely the most important muscle group during high-speed running, and therefore other exercises are probably necessary to prepare athletes appropriately."
@@startingstrength This is a T-Nation article but cites several studies: www.t-nation.com/training/the-squat-is-overrated. The main point: The hammies do get some work during squats; they co-contract alongside the quads. However three out of the four muscles that make up this muscle group are two-joint muscles. This includes the semitendinosus, the semimembranosus and the long head of the biceps femoris. Only the short head of the biceps femoris is a one-joint muscle, and so three-fourths of the hams end up in the same debacle as the quads, being elongated at one end and shortened at the other during squats, and pretty much maintain their length.
@@michaelsasin7407 just because it's in the literature, doesn't mean it's right. How did these geniuses arrive at this conclusion? What method did they use to measure "hamstring activation." This is hardly a refutation of our position.
@@startingstrength The studies used EMG data to determine muscle activation. I am well aware that EMG has been criticized as not being all that accurate. I am also aware of the limitations in exercise science studies. However, despite these limitations, the EMG at least gives some objective measure of muscle activation which is more accurate than a bunch of gym broz saying "Dude, those squats killed my hams!" The EMG data is corroborated by a basic fact of biomechanics: the quads and hamstrings are antagonists. If both contract at the same time, the joint can't move as the actions of each cancel each other out. But, in 1907, a guy named Lombard figured out that the quads and hamstrings can in fact contract at the same time. He explained that this was possible because of the insertion points of the two muscle groups. This apparent paradox was aptly named Lombard's Paradox. Even Lombard's Paradox has its limits - the two muscle groups can interfere with each other if both contract hard enough. In the case of the squat, the quads are the prime movers and the glutes help a lot, especially in a very low squat. The hamstrings' role is that of dynamic stabilizers. Anything more and they would interfere with the quads. Interestingly, the same thing happens in a bench press. The biceps act as dynamic stabilizers for the elbow and shoulder joints. This may be surprising to many because no one ever "feels" their biceps during a bench press. That's because their action is very limited and not enough to produce a meaningful strength stimulus. So, I agree that the hamstrings do contract some in the squat, and I would even concede that they contract more in the low bar. But the work the hamstrings do in the squat is simply not enough to turn the squat into a hamstring exercise, much less a good hamstring exercise. I stand by my original statement that the squat is a poor hamstring exercise and trying to turn it into a hamstring exercise is counterproductive. The differences between low bar and high bar are nothing to make a fuss over. For a general strength trainee, either will work and the results will likely be the same, especially over time.
So do you need pretty flexible hamstrings and glutes to low bar squat correctly? For instance to avoid injury from flexing/hyperextending at the thoracolumbar junction to compensate for lack of flexibility?
The way Rip teaches low bar doesn't even require much shoulder mobility. Elbows high and thumbless grip creates an ideal shelf for the bar to sit on top of the rear delts and across the bottom of the upper traps. It's higher than the powerlifter low bar that places it across the rear delts with thumbs around grip and elbows cranked downwards.
Nathaniel Adjei Depends on where the pain is. If it's off to the side, just above your hips, it's probably just weak/tight muscles. Start with light Romanian deadlift first and slowly work up the weight. If you can do that pain free, switch to standard deadlift, maybe use some 10lb bumper plates (same size as 45lb in terms of dimension) and work up from 65lbs.
I get back tightness off to the sides in my lower back especially when pulling heavy. In my case, it seems to be caused by tight IT bands and is relieved by a few minutes of foam rolling post workout.
It sounds like you might not have very good back squat form. The back squat allows you to use your posterior chain to a greater degree while your quads continue to be engaged. It just seems unlikely that someone's quads alone are stronger than their quads + posterior chain.
Your logic is even more astounding, because the quads cause knee extension, but the hamstrings in this case are causing hip extension, that is where the generated force goes to. You would be right, leg extension + leg curl = no movement, but in this case it is hip extension + leg extension, as the hamstrings also aid hip extension. And since when do antagonist muscles also work during isometric external load, if I hold a dumbbell at 90 degree elbow flexion my biceps do work but my triceps are relaxed.
Why would someone good morning a squat? Weak back? No they would bend over and drop the weight. Weak quads? No, knee extension wouldn’t occur while the weight travels up and the back would extend more. Poor quad hamstring tension relationship? Maybe. High bar sucks because you mute the spine in a vertical position which then keeps the hip angle muted. Low bar with a forward lean creates a more closed hip angle creating more use of the hip. “ hip drive”. Hamstring is irrelevant in that debate.
I don't think it's clear what debate you are referring to. They're just saying that in the low bar back squat form, the hamstring is able to help in the standing part of the movement, and more than in the front squat or presumably the high bar squat.
The main question I have is why about 95% of the people in these videos are of average size? I dont hardly see anyone that has some decent muscle mass in their legs in any of these videos. Most of them look like average looking people or youngsters. If a person truly squats hard for reps they should have some pretty good amount of mass. I dont see this on these videos. I cant take this serious. If I was going to listen to someone it would be more like Alan Thrall, at least this guy walks the walk, Rippetoe is so hard headed all he does is talk the talk.
Rip has stated that the average IQ of the average gym goes is lower than the general population, so it is always surprising that here he is teaching them some very technical issues with the basic movement of the squat... or is the average SS student higher IQ?? From looking at the audience, I think a lot of what he said and explained went right over their muscle-training heads... and a lot of them don't look like they actually train too hard, or been at this for long... or most of them wouldn't be that fat.
This guy is a punk, his way or the highway type of thing. Everyone is built different, and these lifts have to be taught individually to each client. You can't beat one specific movement into everyone. I can squat over 600 on no drugs, doing a tom platz style movement.
Julia Colman because mark pretends the only way to squat is his way. He almost insinuates any other way is nonsense and impossible to achieve any real numbers
John Carter I known plenty of people that squat low bar, and most can't break parallel to save their life, there's many that can squat more with low bar. My point however is that mark is a ego maniac to assume his way is the only way.
I would like to thank you Rip for teaching me how to properly place the bar and how to position myself doing the squat. It have helped me a lot and my knees don't hurt anymore!
Thanks Frank Logrim been a while since I seen a normal comment thanks Rip
Did he pay you to say this?
This is amazing, thank you so much. I wonder why I feel my hamstrings so much during a squat, and I’m doing the squat with great form and never feel injured or uncomfortable during my squat, and I almost feel my hamstrings just as much as my quads. It feels great. What a great teacher
I’m afraid of sneezing when I see these fine videos. This is exactly what I was looking for, I had been doing high bar A2G for some time until I hit a plateau. I switched to low bar, my numbers went up significantly with full ROM, got sick. Took a week off. I went back to the gym and my Hams and glutes are EXTREMELY SORE. Thank you so much Mark Rippetoe for sharing this wonderful information with the world. God bless you 🙌
Why is the hamstring shorter during the front squat?
“You drew a shorter femur”
more hip rotation when you back squat so stretched hammies more
the hamstring doesnt ataches to the femur's extremes, it does on the isquial tuberosity, wich gets closer to de knee as the hip flex, hamstring length cannot be a function o femur length, because femurs length is constant for a determinated individual, and in that case it wouldnt be able to produce concentric nor excentric contraccion.
Jordan Connolly without the drawings can you picture what he's on about
Jordan Connolly why are you stupid "you made a stupid comment".&
Thanks Rip, you're the best.
Rip coming in loud and clear
Dude keeps making them belly gainz !
If you are saying the hamstring works greater in a longer position than it negates your theory on “use of muscles” assuming you are talking about concentric motion. That tricky thing is that the hamstring does not work concentrically during the squat. What is the hamstring doing while the weight is moving against gravity? It’s not shortening. It’s creating a tension force for the quad to contract against.
If a muscle is shorter as drawn in the high bar then it’s working more in the relationship of concentric eccentric. You would then have to say you are using it’s “muscle mass” greater in the front squat/high bar. However, the hamstring does not shorten when the weight is being lifted. Force will be produced from muscles that shorten not elongate. Elongating muscles let the movers push against something.
When does the hamstring work in a concentric manner during a squat? Does it pull the weight to the ground? There are better muscles in the hip to extend it upon standing up so the shortening for hamstring at hip extension is not valid.
TheBulgarianWolf and that’s your rebuttal? How am I wrong doc?
TheBulgarianWolf thanks for reading whatI replied. Now go pick up a kinesiology book.
Didn't he explain that in most cases, the hamstring works isometrically?
Well said
Ever since I was in high school when I squat my hamstrings and ass are extremely sore and I really have minimal soreness in my quadriceps. Can anyone tell me am I doing something wrong or am I doing something right I don’t know???
I have the same thing going on, usually leg press for quads and I only feel them when I do ass to grass squat for higher rep ranges
@Ze TheGame Will try this, appreciated
Mind = blown
I agree with everything Rip is saying, but I'm hung up on the redundancy. The lowbar squat position looks very similar to a conventional deadlift, bent-over row, etc. That being said, my concern is not applicable to Rip's novice program as he doesn't program rows and prescribes only one set of deadlifts a week.
You're simbly reffering to the position of the back, in wich you are infact wrong. It's not like a deadlift or row at all. You're much more bent over in those exercises than in squat. You feel bendt over alot in a low bar squat, but not that much.
Yes, the body position is somewhat similar, but the mechanics in terms of the forces are very different. In the squat the weight force is applied directly above the feet, yet in the deadlift (and row) it is in front of the foot. Those involve a torque not present in the squat
can you do a vid explaining bio mechanics doing squat below parrallel?
It's been done at length. Just below parallel gives the most muscles involved in the lift over the greatest range of motion. Going much further below parallel can unload the hamstrings and potentially cause issues with the knees.
George, Rippetoe has done better than that, he wrote a book in which the longest chapter is about squat mechanics. Read it.
What!!!
That is precisely what he is talking about!! Back squatting below parallel---or what do you think he is referring to with all he said?? My fucking god, seriously!!
@@ggrthemostgodless8713 you got a way with words. Sad
If I have extremely tight hamstrings. Can't even pass by my knees when I wan't to touch my toes.
Should I do flexing or mobilization exercises before or deadlifting would fix the problem?
Ask yourself 2 questions, can you squat to depth? And can you bend down to pick up the bar to deadlift?
yeah u could do some dynamic stretching for the hamstrings before deadlifts
SS guys will say you shouldn't, but you should. I just tore my hamstrings low bar squatting, because it overstretched while being tight.
You can use more weight in a low-bar squat not because you use more hamstrings but because placing the bar lower creates a leverage advantage. That's the point - to be able to lift more in competition. The hamstrings are used very little in the squat. Their purpose is to stabilize the knee. Only at the end of the squat will the hamstrings contribute to extend the hip. Trying to turn the squat into a hamstring exercise is counterproductive and unnecessary given all the hamstring exercises out there THAT ARE ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE AT WORKING THE HAMSTRINGS. Squat to develop quads and glutes, do another exercise for hamstrings.
85% of what you typed here is wrong.
@@startingstrength From the following: instagram.com/p/BMqTK-Qj6QD/ "Although few strength coaches would program the squat deliberately for training the hamstrings, it bears repeating that hamstrings activation (and therefore also involvement) in the squat is fairly low.
This is for two reasons.
Firstly, some strength coaches still maintain that there is a key role for the hamstrings in the squat, because they can feel a sensation in the posterior thigh when doing the exercise, especially at the bottom of the lift. In reality, it is more likely that the muscle they can feel is in fact the adductor magnus, which is likely the main hip extensor at this point in the movement.
Secondly, the squat tends to be used extensively to prepare athletes for sprinting. However, many studies have shown that the hamstrings are likely the most important muscle group during high-speed running, and therefore other exercises are probably necessary to prepare athletes appropriately."
@@startingstrength This is a T-Nation article but cites several studies: www.t-nation.com/training/the-squat-is-overrated. The main point: The hammies do get some work during squats; they co-contract alongside the quads. However three out of the four muscles that make up this muscle group are two-joint muscles. This includes the semitendinosus, the semimembranosus and the long head of the biceps femoris. Only the short head of the biceps femoris is a one-joint muscle, and so three-fourths of the hams end up in the same debacle as the quads, being elongated at one end and shortened at the other during squats, and pretty much maintain their length.
@@michaelsasin7407 just because it's in the literature, doesn't mean it's right. How did these geniuses arrive at this conclusion? What method did they use to measure "hamstring activation." This is hardly a refutation of our position.
@@startingstrength The studies used EMG data to determine muscle activation. I am well aware that EMG has been criticized as not being all that accurate. I am also aware of the limitations in exercise science studies. However, despite these limitations, the EMG at least gives some objective measure of muscle activation which is more accurate than a bunch of gym broz saying "Dude, those squats killed my hams!" The EMG data is corroborated by a basic fact of biomechanics: the quads and hamstrings are antagonists. If both contract at the same time, the joint can't move as the actions of each cancel each other out. But, in 1907, a guy named Lombard figured out that the quads and hamstrings can in fact contract at the same time. He explained that this was possible because of the insertion points of the two muscle groups. This apparent paradox was aptly named Lombard's Paradox. Even Lombard's Paradox has its limits - the two muscle groups can interfere with each other if both contract hard enough. In the case of the squat, the quads are the prime movers and the glutes help a lot, especially in a very low squat. The hamstrings' role is that of dynamic stabilizers. Anything more and they would interfere with the quads. Interestingly, the same thing happens in a bench press. The biceps act as dynamic stabilizers for the elbow and shoulder joints. This may be surprising to many because no one ever "feels" their biceps during a bench press. That's because their action is very limited and not enough to produce a meaningful strength stimulus.
So, I agree that the hamstrings do contract some in the squat, and I would even concede that they contract more in the low bar. But the work the hamstrings do in the squat is simply not enough to turn the squat into a hamstring exercise, much less a good hamstring exercise. I stand by my original statement that the squat is a poor hamstring exercise and trying to turn it into a hamstring exercise is counterproductive. The differences between low bar and high bar are nothing to make a fuss over. For a general strength trainee, either will work and the results will likely be the same, especially over time.
Do students ever answer his questions or do they just nod their heads
So do you need pretty flexible hamstrings and glutes to low bar squat correctly? For instance to avoid injury from flexing/hyperextending at the thoracolumbar junction to compensate for lack of flexibility?
Oliver Paynel You honestly only need shoulder mobility to low bar squat. A lot of what people think is a mobility issue is actually a technique issue
The way Rip teaches low bar doesn't even require much shoulder mobility. Elbows high and thumbless grip creates an ideal shelf for the bar to sit on top of the rear delts and across the bottom of the upper traps. It's higher than the powerlifter low bar that places it across the rear delts with thumbs around grip and elbows cranked downwards.
Great video Mark, could you make a video on why people get lower back pain during deadlifts?
Nathaniel Adjei Depends on where the pain is. If it's off to the side, just above your hips, it's probably just weak/tight muscles. Start with light Romanian deadlift first and slowly work up the weight. If you can do that pain free, switch to standard deadlift, maybe use some 10lb bumper plates (same size as 45lb in terms of dimension) and work up from 65lbs.
Jack Slater cheers
I get back tightness off to the sides in my lower back especially when pulling heavy. In my case, it seems to be caused by tight IT bands and is relieved by a few minutes of foam rolling post workout.
I actually DO squat more weight in a front position than back (high bar), so why is that such a big deal?!
It sounds like you might not have very good back squat form. The back squat allows you to use your posterior chain to a greater degree while your quads continue to be engaged. It just seems unlikely that someone's quads alone are stronger than their quads + posterior chain.
You are badly deformed and are in for some knee pain in the future if it's not fixed. Train your posterior chain more.
High bar can feel funny if you haven't trained it. I'm positive you can lowbar squat more than front squat.
Are u a circus freak?
yo smart guy, if the hamstrings working “isometrically” then so are the antagonist muscles *quads* terribly awful logic
Your logic is even more astounding, because the quads cause knee extension, but the hamstrings in this case are causing hip extension, that is where the generated force goes to.
You would be right, leg extension + leg curl = no movement, but in this case it is hip extension + leg extension, as the hamstrings also aid hip extension.
And since when do antagonist muscles also work during isometric external load, if I hold a dumbbell at 90 degree elbow flexion my biceps do work but my triceps are relaxed.
Why would someone good morning a squat? Weak back? No they would bend over and drop the weight. Weak quads? No, knee extension wouldn’t occur while the weight travels up and the back would extend more. Poor quad hamstring tension relationship? Maybe. High bar sucks because you mute the spine in a vertical position which then keeps the hip angle muted. Low bar with a forward lean creates a more closed hip angle creating more use of the hip. “ hip drive”. Hamstring is irrelevant in that debate.
TheBulgarianWolf WTF. That has nothing to do with what I’m saying. Stop replying. Get a text book.
TheBulgarianWolf that’s not what he’s talking about. Congrats you can read but you can’t decipher the words you’re reading.
I don't think it's clear what debate you are referring to. They're just saying that in the low bar back squat form, the hamstring is able to help in the standing part of the movement, and more than in the front squat or presumably the high bar squat.
God this is boring
The main question I have is why about 95% of the people in these videos are of average size? I dont hardly see anyone that has some decent muscle mass in their legs in any of these videos. Most of them look like average looking people or youngsters. If a person truly squats hard for reps they should have some pretty good amount of mass. I dont see this on these videos. I cant take this serious. If I was going to listen to someone it would be more like Alan Thrall, at least this guy walks the walk, Rippetoe is so hard headed all he does is talk the talk.
You have been on the internet for too long and have been accustomed to steroid standards. Even Thrall is derided as a DYEL by those like you.
Lol, yet Alan Thrall has picked up like 90% of his methodology from Rip and is a starting strength coach
"Starting strength", repeat the title of the book twice and may be you'll realize why most of the people in the seminar look like novices.
Starting strength isn't meant to train these advanced lifters even Rip has said it himself ( we're out here training people in the gutters)
Rip has stated that the average IQ of the average gym goes is lower than the general population, so it is always surprising that here he is teaching them some very technical issues with the basic movement of the squat... or is the average SS student higher IQ??
From looking at the audience, I think a lot of what he said and explained went right over their muscle-training heads... and a lot of them don't look like they actually train too hard, or been at this for long... or most of them wouldn't be that fat.
This guy is a punk, his way or the highway type of thing. Everyone is built different, and these lifts have to be taught individually to each client. You can't beat one specific movement into everyone. I can squat over 600 on no drugs, doing a tom platz style movement.
How saying that your squat is over 600 with Tom Platz style is an argument of anything?
Julia Colman because mark pretends the only way to squat is his way. He almost insinuates any other way is nonsense and impossible to achieve any real numbers
Rip wants us to be strong as possible so hence the back squat
John Carter I known plenty of people that squat low bar, and most can't break parallel to save their life, there's many that can squat more with low bar. My point however is that mark is a ego maniac to assume his way is the only way.
BE YOU.
The world will adjust.
-unknown-