Lol there really isnât anything better than CZcams comment sections. Guys like yourself leave these gems that are just as entertaining, if not more, than the video I came to watch. Youâve attained Top G status for this one. đđŒ
I just think virtually every good point you make apply to Ser Barristan just as good, if not better. He literally sheds his cloak to change his identity in our story, when he travels with Strong Belwas. He's also a white haired old man with trouble sleeping. Tatters refers to Quent and the rest as his "3 lads", just as Barristan has 3 squires which he calls lads... Idk, i kinda feel he fits in a bit better, but that's my opinion
@@frankvandorp9732 youâd think so but maybe after years of battle, stress and war scars itâs made him unrecognizable to Tyrion? I mean you saw soldiers go off to war come back 3-5 years later and it looks like theyâve aged about 10-20 years so maybe itâs the same here in Westeros thatâs just my guess tho I ainât George so I ainât making the real canon
The way Pentos is dealing with their princes reminded me of Robert Sheckley's "A Ticket to Tranai"... "Borg reached for the Presidential Seal, started to remove it from his neck - It exploded suddenly and violently. Goodman found himself staring in horror at Borg's red, ruined head. The Supreme President tottered for a moment, then slid to the floor. Melith took off his jacket and threw it over Borg's head. Goodman backed to a chair and fell into it. His mouth opened, but no words came out. "It's really a pity," Melith said. "He was so near the end of his term. I warned him against licensing that new spaceport. The citizens won't approve, I told him. But he was sure they would like to have two spaceports. Well, he was wrong." "Do you mean - I mean - how - what -" "All government officials," Melith explained, "wear the badge of office, which contains a traditional amount of tessium, an explosive you may have heard of. The charge is radio-controlled from the Citizens Booth. Any citizen has access to the Booth, for the purpose of expressing his disapproval of the government." Melith sighed. "This will go down as a permanent black mark against poor Borg's record." "You let the people express their disapproval by blowing up officials?" Goodman croaked, appalled. "It's the only way that means anything," said Melith "Check and balance. Just as the people are in our hands, so we are in the people's hands."
I thought you were gonna say say Gerion Lannister but then you said Jaime I thought this is a piss take. But its actually such a good theory and breakdown. Great content!
One very good clue would not only how he interact with pretty marris, but that she is is there in the first place given the relationship Jaime and Brienne have and that marris is a discarded futur of Brienne
I've watched or listened to pretty much everything you've ever done. That said. This is right there at the top. Such a great video so loaded in detail and explanations. Thank you good sir.
This was a very good video. I could tell you put a lot of time, work and effort into it and it shows. Not only that but I never once thought about Tatters and Jamie being one and the same but now i totally see it.
I think it's Maegor Targaryen. i mean to be named prince of Pentos you have to have blood of Valyria in you. Also Tattered Prince speaks in high valyrian. which I don't think even essosi Valyrians do, but I might be wrong. Even their age would give or less (It was said he is 62, Maegor would be 67. Knowing how much incognito Tatters is, why not even lie about his age a bit?). Also the fact he always talks about what kind of rogue he is, I think it truly is the son of Brightflame.
I don't think its Maegor, but i do think Tatters can be related to Aerion Brightflame. Aerion stayed in Lys for a few years. It is possible that he fathered some children while living there. He served with the Second Sons for a time while in exile. I always assumed Tatters was a Targaryen Bastard... so he possibily is the son of one.
This was a great video. Nice comparisons. I often wonder if the five-year gap was the right direction to go. GRRM does small little flashbacks throughout his chapters, so I think he could've accomplished the same thing. And five years would make a lot of sense regarding 'Jedi training', especially for Arya's story. Jon's and Bran's might be a little trickier, but he could've pulled it off. I just wonder if it put him in more of a bind not doing the time gap, in regards to finishing the books. I still love what we got, but it's fun to ponder what might have been.
Yes forgot about this wild card character. Him, along with Dark Star, Lemore, Howland Reed, Quaithe..... Can't wait to see what twists they bring to the table
Another well done video! I am always impressed by your knowledge and the way you are able to figure things out. I believe you are absolutely correct! Off topic, I noticed one quote in your video âOswell Whent with his BLACK humor...â. This is another clue to the theory that Oswell âtook the blackâ and is indeed Qhorin Halfhand. Reread the Halfhandâs physical description in the books...everything about him is grey. Well if you took The White and later on took the Black of course GRRM would describe him as grey. And then there is the mention that Lady Whent is a friend of the watch, by Yorin. And most of all telling is at TOJ Whent is sharpening his sword. I donât believe it is a coincidence that some of his last words to Jon are Is your sword sharp? And a few pages before the Halfhand looks at his sword and feels the edge with his finger...to see if it is sharp.
I gotta say man you def took everything into consideration from the books to the writer and how he writes. It is also possible of the tattered prince being Gerion Lannister or even Ser Berristan they all share certain similarities to the tattered prince. Jus discovered your channel will be watching your videos for the foreseeable future. Liked and subscribed! Much love from chicago
I think the cloak is like the Iron Throne. Like the thousand swords of Aegons enemies, its the patchwork of bloodstained cloaks of Tatters' enemies. So maybe it was someone else, who was more interest in the throne.
I wish hbo would do anthology series where they would have an episode or two of stories like the kingsguard taking on the kingswood brotherhood or tourney of harrenhal things that maybe donât fill up a whole season but still events that would be cool to see I think it would do really well
But his hand is chopped off before the 5 year gap....that's a fairly big thing people would understand or had George just scrapped the hand thing and kept everything else? đ€·đœââïž
Itâs so funny you just released this video a few days ago. I actually was going to message you and propose that the âTattered Princeâ was intended to be Theon originally. I really enjoy these character breakdowns you do with the Windblown
Your narration and this possibility does something to my heart. đ„ș I love this! It's an AU easter egg hidden inside the same story. Brienne and Jaime maintaining their companionship and bringing the Grumpy Big Puppy Sandor đ€đ€đ€ SOMEBODY WRITE THIS DOWN!!!
I don't think Gerion makes more sense, but I'm talking about Tatters being an echo of Jaime rather than literally being him. Tatters has been well known as a sellsword since around 270 AC whereas Gerion only went missing in 291 AC. The timeline doesn't work for them being actually the same person.
Thank you so much for making your first non live-stream video in 6 months! Please go back to making more of these... I love them and I bet everyone else does too!
One thing I find particularly strange is the use of wildfire vs wild fire. Wild fire is used to describe the Tragedy at Summerhall but it seems most fans interpret it as wildfire, the substance. IMO the grammatical difference is intentional and has led us to believe Egg caused his own demise when the truth is more likely to be foul play. Can we get a video on this?
In the Fanfic that I'm writing, Tatters is Prince Maegor (son of Aerion "Brightflame"). Wholly uninterested in returning to Westeros ever. And immensely amused at Young Griff and Viserys.
Loras Tyrell. Ragged cloak is made of different colored twists of cloths torn from the surcoats of men he's killed = Rainbow-striped silk cloak of the Rainbow guard, some of who he ended up killing. Loras silver armor =
I wonder if alot of the theories of so many characters masquerading under false identities are actually real If so, wulld it fit the story to have so many false identities? Is it to send a message present in the story? Id love an analysis on this, and the many, many theories that fit under this umbrella. Some are obviously likely true, Jon being a targ etc But there's also dany being a dragonseed, roose being a vampire, quaithe being shiera seastar, Lem being Richard Lonmouth, Varys being a blackfure, Bronn being a Reyne or Tarbeck How many of these can be true before it gets ridiculous?
I never realized about the reused character tropes, and it makes me wonder who else might have a similar setup. Victarion as the dimwitted warrior begrudgingly following orders in order to marry Daenerys does sound a bit similar to Jorah. Aurane Waters and Salladhor Saan both abandon their oaths to their respective monarchs when the going got tough, and turned pirate. A bit of a stretch, but Alys Karstark as the highborn lady running to the Nightâs Watch away from a political marriage does sound like something Shireen might have faced if she were a few years older.
Do you know who Danzo sounds like: Mance! The bard and warrior aspacts of him. And the fact that he is decriped as an older man. First I though could that be good old Barry the bold. But Mance fits much better. Lewis Laster sounds like lancel. And Ginger Jack is what edmure could look like after 5 years of impresenment and I could see the freys cutting out part of his tongue.
So in the future, it would have been Jaime, Brienne and the Hound leading a group of outlaws at the Riverlands.... that was a great plot, no wonder GRRM didnt give it up and preserved it
You make some great, but I don't think Jamie being the Tattered Prince offering to fight for Daenerys, or any Targaryen in fact, really makes sense after his first hand experience of Targaryen tyranny. So in my mind GRRM would have cooked up this 5 years in the future version of Jamie whose become the Tattered Prince, but whose he's fighting would be pretty different, then GRRM scraps the time leap, keeps the Tattered Prince plot but changes it around so he's offering to fight for Daenerys. That seems like unnecessary work for such a minor character to me, but then again maybe that level of work is the reason GRRM hasn't released a mainline ASOIAF book since 2011
That was one of those I didn't put into the script, but yeah one of the characters I identified as a BWB member transposed into the Windblown. No video on that though.
@@JoeMagician to be fair thereâs not a lot there, just the warrior bard thing, I started looking into it trying to figure out who more of the characters were, are you planning on doing anymore in this series?
@@For_The_Watch Probably not, at least for the Windblown. Caggo, Tatters, and Merris are the three big ones there. Maybe one or two on other places where characters are Five Year Gap versions transposed.
@@JoeMagician awesome man, well this is the first Iâve heard of this so I went back and watched the Meris/Caggo videos, great stuff man. I might hit you up with more parallels from the wind blown to the Bwb
I also think another part of the beef with Jaime and Ned comes from the fact that Ned killed Ser Arthur. His boyhood hero. Iâm sure he senses some bullshit with it.
I dont mean to spam your comment section but have you discussed the themes of hubris, identity and immortality? I can't shake the feeling that there is more behind the sayings "all men must die", "what is dead may never die" and "only death can pay for life". The concepts of resurrection, skin changing, flaying and whatever it is that Faceless Men do seem to point towards man's pursuit of divinity. Is this what caused the long night and the creation of the Others? Is this what Euron is working towards?
Only death can pay for life is a direct allusion to how the faceless men work. You drink from the fountain, they kill somebody for you. That is the actual huge price the faceless men require for their services and why Littlefinger, who is culturally Braavosi always scoffs at using them and brings up the price. It isnt something you can pay for with coin. That is why the first gift was given to a slave and then they moved on to the masters. The reason this will remain subtext and not overt is because it would reveal too much about the nature of magic. What they are doing is a weird cross between warging and re-animation. That also explains why they are directly connected to the religion of the moonsingers which is clearly a religion dedicated/based around some variant of the Children of the forest.
@@Luminousreign thank you for this reply. To me, "all men must die, all men must serve" reflects the practice of drinking from the fountain a bit closer. My interpretation is that the Faceless Men perform assisted suicides/mercy killing and those that give their lives to the Many Faced God enter a 2nd life of servitude in the sense that their face and image are used by the Faceless Men to carry out their assassinations.
@@karimw.9954 If you think back to the slaves and what they did, there is a direct parallel to the assisted suicides and mercy killings they do. They mercy killed the slaves to kill the masters. Go back to the kindly man's story about the topic and you will realize this is the ethos he is trying to convey. Or think back to Arya saving three lives so she gets three deaths. It is one of the most heavily implied things about how the faceless men work. Also, it is a lot to type out but the bodies in the Arya chapters that she sees before her assignments are related to the assignments themselves. This equivalent exchange murder concept is their ethos, and a balance they dont magically stop observing in their temple.
@@karimw.9954 I do think you are correct that they are collecting faces from the process as well, but I dont think they are using them to do the killings their deaths payed for. I think they just collect faces and memories regardless for religious reasons. This is also directly parallel to the children and how they seem to connect to the trees before death to add their conciousness and memories to the collective in the trees.
Love it and totally buy it. Thanks. Though the scoff about Jaimeâs parentage was uncalled for đ for surely he is as much Aerysâ as Cersei is Tywinâs. In any case, any brief thoughts on how the five year gapped affected the Edric Dayne story?
You were recommended by in deep geek, this was great đ đ, I always thought tatters was Jamie's uncle gerion? , not correct spelling I know. Because Jamie's aunt Gemma Frey, said Jamie was like his uncle gerion,?
I always thought the idea behind The Tattered Prince was that he was the Dread Pirate Roberts of ASOIAF. When yhe last one was ready to move on, h picks his successor and trains them. Then the new Tattered Prince takes up the tatters.
It does make me wonder if someone knows of and wants to rend Illyrio and Varys' ploy in tatters. If that might be why he wants to gain Pentos. It is interesting to consider if nothing else
Jaime isn't a bastard dragon of Lannisters, that would be Tyrion, like all of Rhaegar's children they are near identical twins to the founders of thier mother's house; Tyrion is Lann reborn, John is Brandon of Bloody Blade, and Daenerys is Daenys the Dreamer. GRRM likes make his history cyclical, and fire daemons love to lie
Could be the grandson of Aerion Brightflame? Or could even be the grandson of Dareon the Drunken? Both of them were Eggâs brothers, and so these men would be considered princes đ€ŽâŠ
I tend to be drawen to write similar characters again and again so I just started to go with it, seeing them as alternative universe Versionsnummer of one another, put into different worlds and circumstances, meeting some of the same people, but developing their relationships differently . . . It makes writeing them very interessting. I have a couple which is somewhat ment to be in almost every story one of them fetures, but if I recall it right, they never do cause of things that happened before they could. He has a bad case of an for the greater good mentality, which tends to place them opposing over time . . . I realy enjoy defining their difference and how those where carved out by what they lived through.
If it hadn't been for the fact that Tyrion had med the Tattered Prince, I'd be open to the idea that he was actually Gerion Lannister, just older, nastier and more cruel, with very little left of Tyrions' jovial and funny uncle Gery.
Tatters is past his sxities... yet... he is younger than Tywin and Kevan (Who is only 55 at the time of his death and he and Gerion are a mere 11 years apart, making Gerion only 44).
As a Jamie Lannister parallell it does make me wonder that he did truly run from power, or merely desire their own path to power. I mean his ultimatum is to be given Pentos after all
Really glad Martin did not go whit Jamie in the throne, because that would have been a vastly different world than Westeros considering Jamie is not even in the line of succession hell Cersie it not Iâm even in the line of succession she just took the throne and D&D did not bother showing realistic reactions. After all if Jamie took the throne then the throne is meaningless and up for grabs for anyone. Hell Robert say on that throne whit a tenuous blood claim to the Targaryens Rhaelle was it
What is his horses name?
Roach
@@paradropgeneral4397 Geralt using the Wild Hunts inter dimensional travel magic đđ
Brave sir Robin, That or Kevin
Friday
dequavis
What's Tatters, precious?
Boil 'em
Mash 'em
Cut off their sword hand
đ
Lol there really isnât anything better than CZcams comment sections. Guys like yourself leave these gems that are just as entertaining, if not more, than the video I came to watch.
Youâve attained Top G status for this one. đđŒ
@@Augusto_Pinochet Gracias
đđđđđđđđđ
I just think virtually every good point you make apply to Ser Barristan just as good, if not better. He literally sheds his cloak to change his identity in our story, when he travels with Strong Belwas. He's also a white haired old man with trouble sleeping. Tatters refers to Quent and the rest as his "3 lads", just as Barristan has 3 squires which he calls lads... Idk, i kinda feel he fits in a bit better, but that's my opinion
I was literally thinking the same thing the whole video! đ Iâm scrolling through the comments and I see this! Totally agree with you!
Barristen also served on the KG with Oswell Whent
Gerion Lannister is my guess. He would be around same age, has noble beginnings and could give jamies vibes.
More off an accurate assessment.
Wouldn't Tyrion have recognized him though? Gerion was his favorite uncle.
@@frankvandorp9732 youâd think so but maybe after years of battle, stress and war scars itâs made him unrecognizable to Tyrion? I mean you saw soldiers go off to war come back 3-5 years later and it looks like theyâve aged about 10-20 years so maybe itâs the same here in Westeros thatâs just my guess tho I ainât George so I ainât making the real canon
Most likely. Gerion even fights like Jamie, and Jamie is like him in personality.
Well to be prince of pentos you have to be descended from valyria and be of one of their leading families, which gerion isnt
The way Pentos is dealing with their princes reminded me of Robert Sheckley's "A Ticket to Tranai"... "Borg reached for the Presidential Seal, started to remove it from his neck - It exploded suddenly and violently. Goodman found himself staring in horror at Borg's red, ruined head. The Supreme President tottered for a moment, then slid to the floor. Melith took off his jacket and threw it over Borg's head. Goodman backed to a chair and fell into it. His mouth opened, but no words came out. "It's really a pity," Melith said. "He was so near the end of his term. I warned him against licensing that new spaceport. The citizens won't approve, I told him. But he was sure they would like to have two spaceports. Well, he was wrong." "Do you mean - I mean - how - what -" "All government officials," Melith explained, "wear the badge of office, which contains a traditional amount of tessium, an explosive you may have heard of. The charge is radio-controlled from the Citizens Booth. Any citizen has access to the Booth, for the purpose of expressing his disapproval of the government." Melith sighed. "This will go down as a permanent black mark against poor Borg's record." "You let the people express their disapproval by blowing up officials?" Goodman croaked, appalled. "It's the only way that means anything," said Melith "Check and balance. Just as the people are in our hands, so we are in the people's hands."
That story and others from Sheckley were so great to read!
@Balint Ujvari lol it is satirical fiction. Of course it isnât realistic
Its just a social comentary about plutocrats funding the rise of figureheads to later use them as escape goats to the popular rage.
I thought you were gonna say say Gerion Lannister but then you said Jaime I thought this is a piss take. But its actually such a good theory and breakdown. Great content!
Although this would be a horrible way for the brienne jaime storyline to go, itâs kind of heartwarming that they would still be close no matter what
One very good clue would not only how he interact with pretty marris, but that she is is there in the first place given the relationship Jaime and Brienne have and that marris is a discarded futur of Brienne
I've watched or listened to pretty much everything you've ever done. That said. This is right there at the top. Such a great video so loaded in detail and explanations. Thank you good sir.
Spoiler:
The Tattered Prince is Moonboy. Sorry to ruin the surprise, Joe.
Oh darn
Can't believe Cersei fucked Tattered Prince.
For all I know...
My bets were on patch face, oh well
Cersei is banging the tattered prince?
I literally been on your channel for hours now. Not too many can hold my attention. Keep them coming.
This was a very good video. I could tell you put a lot of time, work and effort into it and it shows. Not only that but I never once thought about Tatters and Jamie being one and the same but now i totally see it.
I think it's Maegor Targaryen.
i mean to be named prince of Pentos you have to have blood of Valyria in you. Also Tattered Prince speaks in high valyrian. which I don't think even essosi Valyrians do, but I might be wrong.
Even their age would give or less (It was said he is 62, Maegor would be 67. Knowing how much incognito Tatters is, why not even lie about his age a bit?).
Also the fact he always talks about what kind of rogue he is, I think it truly is the son of Brightflame.
I don't think its Maegor, but i do think Tatters can be related to Aerion Brightflame.
Aerion stayed in Lys for a few years. It is possible that he fathered some children while living there. He served with the Second Sons for a time while in exile.
I always assumed Tatters was a Targaryen Bastard... so he possibily is the son of one.
This was a great video. Nice comparisons. I often wonder if the five-year gap was the right direction to go. GRRM does small little flashbacks throughout his chapters, so I think he could've accomplished the same thing. And five years would make a lot of sense regarding 'Jedi training', especially for Arya's story. Jon's and Bran's might be a little trickier, but he could've pulled it off. I just wonder if it put him in more of a bind not doing the time gap, in regards to finishing the books. I still love what we got, but it's fun to ponder what might have been.
Yes forgot about this wild card character. Him, along with Dark Star, Lemore, Howland Reed, Quaithe..... Can't wait to see what twists they bring to the table
Another well done video! I am always impressed by your knowledge and the way you are able to figure things out. I believe you are absolutely correct! Off topic, I noticed one quote in your video âOswell Whent with his BLACK humor...â. This is another clue to the theory that Oswell âtook the blackâ and is indeed Qhorin Halfhand. Reread the Halfhandâs physical description in the books...everything about him is grey. Well if you took The White and later on took the Black of course GRRM would describe him as grey. And then there is the mention that Lady Whent is a friend of the watch, by Yorin. And most of all telling is at TOJ Whent is sharpening his sword. I donât believe it is a coincidence that some of his last words to Jon are Is your sword sharp? And a few pages before the Halfhand looks at his sword and feels the edge with his finger...to see if it is sharp.
â€
I gotta say man you def took everything into consideration from the books to the writer and how he writes. It is also possible of the tattered prince being Gerion Lannister or even Ser Berristan they all share certain similarities to the tattered prince. Jus discovered your channel will be watching your videos for the foreseeable future. Liked and subscribed! Much love from chicago
I think the cloak is like the Iron Throne. Like the thousand swords of Aegons enemies, its the patchwork of bloodstained cloaks of Tatters' enemies. So maybe it was someone else, who was more interest in the throne.
I think it's a targ. Jamies never been referred to asor compared to a prince.
been waiting for this for like three months lmao
Same
Had a few false starts, but it got there in the end
I wish hbo would do anthology series where they would have an episode or two of stories like the kingsguard taking on the kingswood brotherhood or tourney of harrenhal things that maybe donât fill up a whole season but still events that would be cool to see I think it would do really well
Well, I mean, we asoiaf fans are a community that knows how to wait if nothing else
But his hand is chopped off before the 5 year gap....that's a fairly big thing people would understand or had George just scrapped the hand thing and kept everything else? đ€·đœââïž
Agreed. Jaime's also in his 30's, not 60. Him losing his sword arm has been canon for 25 years now, Dance didn't come out until 2011.
@@mjhilps Yeah and Tatters being Gerion Lannister has also been debunked, since he is only 44 (He is 11 years younger than Kevan, who dies at age 55).
Joe, your videos so often explore topics I wonder about, but never get around to puzzling out myself! Thank you for your dedication to your craft!
Explained so well! Thank you for laying it all out like this
Tatters lacks one hand?
Also, Tatters is in his sixties... how is this to be Jaime ?
I never would have put this together, great work!
Itâs so funny you just released this video a few days ago. I actually was going to message you and propose that the âTattered Princeâ was intended to be Theon originally.
I really enjoy these character breakdowns you do with the Windblown
He was probably the son of the origional Daemon Targaryen.
Your narration and this possibility does something to my heart. đ„ș I love this! It's an AU easter egg hidden inside the same story. Brienne and Jaime maintaining their companionship and bringing the Grumpy Big Puppy Sandor đ€đ€đ€ SOMEBODY WRITE THIS DOWN!!!
The story about the deserters is so brutal and hilarious at the same time!
This is a brilliant video. Instant subscribe and favorite. Thank you, i feel like I knew this but never put the pieces together
I thought you were going to say he's Jaime's lost uncle
For sure. That's exactly what I thought until he said JAMIE. his uncle Gerrion I believe makes much more sense
I don't think Gerion makes more sense, but I'm talking about Tatters being an echo of Jaime rather than literally being him. Tatters has been well known as a sellsword since around 270 AC whereas Gerion only went missing in 291 AC. The timeline doesn't work for them being actually the same person.
@@JoeMagician fair enough.
I thought Gerion was the shrouded lord
Heroin saved tyrion didn't he at the river of rhoynar
Thank you so much for making your first non live-stream video in 6 months! Please go back to making more of these... I love them and I bet everyone else does too!
Not true, I made the five year gap one and the House of the Dragon casting news videos in December.
Oh my god, this trilogy of Jamie, sandor, and brie be, all makes so much sense, total genius, great job!
Yeah, them teaming up in a not so wholesome way simply makes sense
One thing I find particularly strange is the use of wildfire vs wild fire. Wild fire is used to describe the Tragedy at Summerhall but it seems most fans interpret it as wildfire, the substance. IMO the grammatical difference is intentional and has led us to believe Egg caused his own demise when the truth is more likely to be foul play.
Can we get a video on this?
IMO I do think it was his own fault, I put that in my video czcams.com/video/4XyrJakl6_c/video.html
@@JoeMagician I'll have to rewatch. So do you think the use of "wild fire instead of wildfire" was a grammatical error?
Yeah, think so. Egg tried to use wildfire to hatch the eggs, it got out of control.
Scooby doo style...đđđđđ
I thought this was gonna be similar to Tyrion being a time travelling Fetus theory when you first mentioned jaime
A lot of fun to listen to. Good parallels.
Could the cloak be a reference to Saruman? He goes from being Saruman the White to Saruman of the many Colours
In the Fanfic that I'm writing, Tatters is Prince Maegor (son of Aerion "Brightflame"). Wholly uninterested in returning to Westeros ever. And immensely amused at Young Griff and Viserys.
This is incredible! Excellent work Matt!
Thank you! Cheers!
Splendid! Well done Joe!
I gotta get me that calendar another reason to stay til the end
Loras Tyrell. Ragged cloak is made of different colored twists of cloths torn from the surcoats of men he's killed = Rainbow-striped silk cloak of the Rainbow guard, some of who he ended up killing. Loras silver armor =
He hanged the Lannister outlaws along with the rest. âIt felt like justice.â
If he wants Pentos, heâs probably not Westerosi.
I think it's the lannister that disappeared with their house sword
I wonder if alot of the theories of so many characters masquerading under false identities are actually real
If so, wulld it fit the story to have so many false identities? Is it to send a message present in the story?
Id love an analysis on this, and the many, many theories that fit under this umbrella. Some are obviously likely true, Jon being a targ etc
But there's also dany being a dragonseed, roose being a vampire, quaithe being shiera seastar, Lem being Richard Lonmouth, Varys being a blackfure, Bronn being a Reyne or Tarbeck
How many of these can be true before it gets ridiculous?
I never realized about the reused character tropes, and it makes me wonder who else might have a similar setup.
Victarion as the dimwitted warrior begrudgingly following orders in order to marry Daenerys does sound a bit similar to Jorah.
Aurane Waters and Salladhor Saan both abandon their oaths to their respective monarchs when the going got tough, and turned pirate.
A bit of a stretch, but Alys Karstark as the highborn lady running to the Nightâs Watch away from a political marriage does sound like something Shireen might have faced if she were a few years older.
Sallador had alway sbeen a pirate and a sellsail, so no oath broke there. Maybe a contract, but wigh a lack of pay/skyrocketing risks, eh.
I can very much see how originally the tattered prince and pretty Meris were meant to be Jamie and Brienne
To be fair, someone still recognizes Jaime when Briene was taking him back to Kingâs Landing
Do you know who Danzo sounds like: Mance! The bard and warrior aspacts of him. And the fact that he is decriped as an older man. First I though could that be good old Barry the bold. But Mance fits much better. Lewis Laster sounds like lancel. And Ginger Jack is what edmure could look like after 5 years of impresenment and I could see the freys cutting out part of his tongue.
"just be Jamie, an exiled prince..." You don't like the Jamie is Aerys' son theory? GRRM got you to hint at it though out the video. Just saying...
Tyrion is the get of Aerys not Jamie.
@@gilbatzri Tyrion is the child of Tywin and a Spicer girl (Blackfyre line though Maggy the Frog).
Jaime is Aerys and Joanna's (not her choice).
So in the future, it would have been Jaime, Brienne and the Hound leading a group of outlaws at the Riverlands.... that was a great plot, no wonder GRRM didnt give it up and preserved it
You make some great, but I don't think Jamie being the Tattered Prince offering to fight for Daenerys, or any Targaryen in fact, really makes sense after his first hand experience of Targaryen tyranny.
So in my mind GRRM would have cooked up this 5 years in the future version of Jamie whose become the Tattered Prince, but whose he's fighting would be pretty different, then GRRM scraps the time leap, keeps the Tattered Prince plot but changes it around so he's offering to fight for Daenerys. That seems like unnecessary work for such a minor character to me, but then again maybe that level of work is the reason GRRM hasn't released a mainline ASOIAF book since 2011
Seems like heâd be a great dark souls boss đ€Ł
His age makes me think he could be Maegor Targaryen(Son of Aerion Brightflame). But thats really all I have to go on is Maegornwould be in his 60s.
Denzo Dâhan is Tom OâSevens coming to a theatre near you in spring of 2023
That was one of those I didn't put into the script, but yeah one of the characters I identified as a BWB member transposed into the Windblown. No video on that though.
@@JoeMagician to be fair thereâs not a lot there, just the warrior bard thing, I started looking into it trying to figure out who more of the characters were, are you planning on doing anymore in this series?
@@For_The_Watch Probably not, at least for the Windblown. Caggo, Tatters, and Merris are the three big ones there. Maybe one or two on other places where characters are Five Year Gap versions transposed.
@@JoeMagician awesome man, well this is the first Iâve heard of this so I went back and watched the Meris/Caggo videos, great stuff man. I might hit you up with more parallels from the wind blown to the Bwb
I always thought he may have been a Velaryon just not of driftmark.
I also think another part of the beef with Jaime and Ned comes from the fact that Ned killed Ser Arthur. His boyhood hero. Iâm sure he senses some bullshit with it.
I have the callander, the art is amazing!
I dont mean to spam your comment section but have you discussed the themes of hubris, identity and immortality? I can't shake the feeling that there is more behind the sayings "all men must die", "what is dead may never die" and "only death can pay for life". The concepts of resurrection, skin changing, flaying and whatever it is that Faceless Men do seem to point towards man's pursuit of divinity. Is this what caused the long night and the creation of the Others? Is this what Euron is working towards?
Only death can pay for life is a direct allusion to how the faceless men work. You drink from the fountain, they kill somebody for you. That is the actual huge price the faceless men require for their services and why Littlefinger, who is culturally Braavosi always scoffs at using them and brings up the price. It isnt something you can pay for with coin. That is why the first gift was given to a slave and then they moved on to the masters. The reason this will remain subtext and not overt is because it would reveal too much about the nature of magic. What they are doing is a weird cross between warging and re-animation. That also explains why they are directly connected to the religion of the moonsingers which is clearly a religion dedicated/based around some variant of the Children of the forest.
@@Luminousreign thank you for this reply.
To me, "all men must die, all men must serve" reflects the practice of drinking from the fountain a bit closer. My interpretation is that the Faceless Men perform assisted suicides/mercy killing and those that give their lives to the Many Faced God enter a 2nd life of servitude in the sense that their face and image are used by the Faceless Men to carry out their assassinations.
@@karimw.9954 If you think back to the slaves and what they did, there is a direct parallel to the assisted suicides and mercy killings they do. They mercy killed the slaves to kill the masters. Go back to the kindly man's story about the topic and you will realize this is the ethos he is trying to convey. Or think back to Arya saving three lives so she gets three deaths. It is one of the most heavily implied things about how the faceless men work. Also, it is a lot to type out but the bodies in the Arya chapters that she sees before her assignments are related to the assignments themselves. This equivalent exchange murder concept is their ethos, and a balance they dont magically stop observing in their temple.
@@karimw.9954 I do think you are correct that they are collecting faces from the process as well, but I dont think they are using them to do the killings their deaths payed for. I think they just collect faces and memories regardless for religious reasons. This is also directly parallel to the children and how they seem to connect to the trees before death to add their conciousness and memories to the collective in the trees.
@@Luminousreign great analysis. I'm excited to see how this plays out in the upcoming books.
Love it and totally buy it. Thanks.
Though the scoff about Jaimeâs parentage was uncalled for đ for surely he is as much Aerysâ as Cersei is Tywinâs.
In any case, any brief thoughts on how the five year gapped affected the Edric Dayne story?
You were recommended by in deep geek, this was great đ đ, I always thought tatters was Jamie's uncle gerion? , not correct spelling I know. Because Jamie's aunt Gemma Frey, said Jamie was like his uncle gerion,?
He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.
Whatever he chose . . .
Heâs very Dread Pirate Robertson
I always thought the idea behind The Tattered Prince was that he was the Dread Pirate Roberts of ASOIAF. When yhe last one was ready to move on, h picks his successor and trains them. Then the new Tattered Prince takes up the tatters.
It does make me wonder if someone knows of and wants to rend Illyrio and Varys' ploy in tatters. If that might be why he wants to gain Pentos. It is interesting to consider if nothing else
If I was to be mad in my assumptions, I'd say Rhaegar đ
Jaime warging into Brynden Rivers (in the past)
Iâve only read the books once so I donât remember everything, but didnât tatters have two hands?
My immediate reaction is Viserys. Viserys if he had not been killed.
Nice theory.
I think he might be a great grandchild of Daemon TargaryenâŠ
Jaime isn't a bastard dragon of Lannisters, that would be Tyrion, like all of Rhaegar's children they are near identical twins to the founders of thier mother's house; Tyrion is Lann reborn, John is Brandon of Bloody Blade, and Daenerys is Daenys the Dreamer.
GRRM likes make his history cyclical, and fire daemons love to lie
Could be the grandson of Aerion Brightflame? Or could even be the grandson of Dareon the Drunken? Both of them were Eggâs brothers, and so these men would be considered princes đ€ŽâŠ
I tend to be drawen to write similar characters again and again so I just started to go with it, seeing them as alternative universe Versionsnummer of one another, put into different worlds and circumstances, meeting some of the same people, but developing their relationships differently . . . It makes writeing them very interessting. I have a couple which is somewhat ment to be in almost every story one of them fetures, but if I recall it right, they never do cause of things that happened before they could. He has a bad case of an for the greater good mentality, which tends to place them opposing over time . . . I realy enjoy defining their difference and how those where carved out by what they lived through.
This could be Barristan. He is after all thrown out of the kings guard and wander essos
This was a good one. Great analysis.
If it hadn't been for the fact that Tyrion had med the Tattered Prince, I'd be open to the idea that he was actually Gerion Lannister, just older, nastier and more cruel, with very little left of Tyrions' jovial and funny uncle Gery.
Gerion is the shrouded lord
Tatters is past his sxities... yet... he is younger than Tywin and Kevan (Who is only 55 at the time of his death and he and Gerion are a mere 11 years apart, making Gerion only 44).
As a Jamie Lannister parallell it does make me wonder that he did truly run from power, or merely desire their own path to power. I mean his ultimatum is to be given Pentos after all
Why would he be given Pentos
tattered prince is the ex brother in law of ilirio mopatys
Iv so missed your theory videos got to â€ïž them
I was thinking Tywin Lannister. Jamie was a good soldier, but not cold and ruthless like his father âïž
A Prince you say, a King's sonđ€
Constants and variables.
I thought the same thing! Hardly wait to see out come. I hope great minds think alike !
Great video!The only other remixed character that I know off was Darkstar (a dark version of Ned Dayne?).
A horse cloak is called a caparsion
This is brilliant.
Thank you !!! Much enjoyed.
I will say GoT Jamie failes utterly, giving all his progress up for Cersei. That said i retrospect of course
Exciting!
I very much enjoy this series of videos.
Outstanding work
Could be Ser Gerion Lannister !
Jaime Lannester isn't a Prince, so plz explain
Gerion lannister or a blackfyre?
Close!
Really glad Martin did not go whit Jamie in the throne, because that would have been a vastly different world than Westeros considering Jamie is not even in the line of succession hell Cersie it not Iâm even in the line of succession she just took the throne and D&D did not bother showing realistic reactions. After all if Jamie took the throne then the throne is meaningless and up for grabs for anyone. Hell Robert say on that throne whit a tenuous blood claim to the Targaryens Rhaelle was it
Great job. This is awesome.
Tfw you realize the Smiling Knight was the true hero of the story
Well I'll be damned.
Nah I canât get behind this theory. Thereâs no way. People say the Tattered Prince is well past sixty. And Iâm pretty sure he has 2 hands?
I don't think you understood what I was saying, he's not literally Jaime
I dont remember the tattered prince missing a hand tho
Brienne didn't actually get her breasts cut off like Merris. It's not a 1 to 1 on every trait.