How Accurate Was The Depiction of Spartans In 300? | The Ancients
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 05. 2024
- One of the most famed classes of soldiers from antiquity, the Spartan warrior has been immortalised in media today. Characterised as super soldiers, formidable fighters who would rather perish than surrender - their reputation truly did proceed them.
But how accurate is this image - and does it correlate with what the ancient sources actually tell us?
In this filmed episode of The Ancients podcast Sparta mini-series, host Tristan Hughes welcomes Dr Roel Konijnendijk from the University of Oxford, to take a deep dive into the life of a Spartan w
Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free exclusive podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsely, Mary Beard and more. Watch, listen and read history wherever you are, whenever you want it. Available on all devices: Apple TV, Amazon Prime Video, Android TV, Samsung Smart TV, Roku, Xbox, Chromecast, and iOs & Android.
We're offering a special discount to History Hit for our subscribers, get 50% off your first 3 months with code CZcams: www.access.historyhit.com/
#historyhit #spartans #spartanwarrior
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:12 Early Days of Sparta
00:08:27 Training and Education
00:19:48 Hellenistic differences
00:21:37 Did Sparta have an army?
00:28:25 Spartan Fighting Styles
00:38:25 Spartan Armour
00:44:23 Spartan Command Structure
00:46:44 ‘The 300’
00:51:32 Spartan Burials
00:55:50 Was Sparta actually a Military Society?
Yes, but did the Spartans have the technology to produce tools capable of creating a proper ditch and moat defense?
Antler picks?
Just as important, did they throw rocks that cost them nothing and hurt people??
Whst tools? If u don't have a spade u have a pole, if u don't have a polr u have hands. Making a ditch or moat isn't hard at all
The city of Sparta famously had no walls. It did however have a ditch.
You have internet, look it up and educate yourself, then you would not be making comments such as yours, as you would already know the information. But you have proved the old saying correct.
If it was not for freedom of speech, we would not know who the idiots are
The answer is ditch, lots of ditches. When you finish one ditch, you make another ditch
"Sergeant, that ditch needs another ditch!"
Yo Dawg I heard you like ditches
I would even venture as far to say as that the answer is to ditch whatever else was being done and dig another ditch.
...provided, of course, that the previous task to be ditched is not digging the ditch itself.
The legend goes that "300" does not refer to the number of Spartans but to the number of ditches they dug to hold back the Persians.
The Ditchlord comes back to us now - at the turn of the tide. So happy to see Dr. Roel again in one of these videos.
"The Ditchlord" - I'm dead.
I raise my spade in salute to the Ditchlord ✊
DITCHLORD IS SUPREME
My name is Ditchlord, Digger of Diggerss;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
To steal another commenter's thunder, don't forget the rocks that cost nothing and hurt people.
Thanks to Dr. Roel, the first thing i look for now when i visit ancient ruins is a ditch. What a legend.
Na those with ditches would’ve survived. The ruins u see dont have ditches, which is y they’re ruins
This man is a legend and I built several ditches as soon as I saw this you tube video drop
I could listen Dr. Roel for hours. He explains everything so well and his voice is very pleasant to listen to. Also, I've learned the importance of ditches.
The biggest thing I've learned about Sparta is that apparently waaaaaaaaay too many people took the movie "300" as a historically accurate documentary.
Exactly !
Literally why I now hate that movie.
I feel the same way about Braveheart. lol
300, Braveheart, Enemy at the Gates, all entertaining films that far too many people mistake for historical documentaries.
I keep telling people who complained about The Woman King that, The Women King was as historically accurate as 300.
CZcams - trying super hard to be Tiktok 2.0 by ultra promoting short videos
People - just happy to watch a massive history nerd talk about his favourite subject for over an hour without any edit, camera move, gif insert or AI voice.
Yes please, more of that. We do make time for that kind of content.
Also YT: people aren’t taking too kindly to shorts. Let’s promote them even more over things that are actually our core competencies
@@arislanbekkosnazarov9644 CZcams been losing money hand over fist since their beginning, they have no core competency, they r desperate to make actual money and not only spend 😂😂😅
I just like long videos because I can play it, and not have to keep switching to a new one. These long vids are great when you're doing housework, walking somewhere, or even just eating (not having to drop the food to pick a new vid every couple minutes is nice).
So true.
I suppose I can take a break from digging ditches around my house to watch this video
I knew there was going to be ditch comments, and I was not disappointed. Lol. I love watching Roel talk. His passion for history is contagious.
This man is a gem that needs to be on youtube more often.
They better discuss the legendary 300 ditches...
The Return of the ditch King. We‘ve been waiting too long for this
The Ditch King of Denmark!
I could listen to him all day. Absolutely fantastic. Oxford is lucky to have you sir! Love this channel. Please bring him back for more discussions.
Really looking forward to this. If only the Spartans had dug a ditch at Thermopylae. More Dr Roel please!!!!!
Jokes aside, I seem to recall that the allied force there did build a makeshift wall but the ground being kinda rocky probably didn't lend itself to ditch digging.
That's a serious question to put to the Dr.
Correct @@WBtimhawk
@@WBtimhawk Skill issue
The place had an older border wall which the Greek army is reported to have fixed and/or reinforced.
Got my entrenching tool, and now I'm settled in for some debunking of Spartan myths. 😊
He's back !!!! We've prepared many ditches
Its nice to hear a commentary on the spartans objectively and on depth, avoiding the myths and propaganda
If I was enrolled at this dude's university, I would take every class he teaches. Very easy to listen to.
I am a huge history nerd and this guy is one of my favorite speakers
Where is the ditch??
Beat me to it! 😭
He seriously should think of selling merc with that slogan, even if he gives the profits to a charity or, you know, to get a ditch dug.
Ditches aside, i thought it was a shame the interview was just 20 min, Then i realized i have been listening to this guy for an hour.
And he still left me wishing for more.
Same here, same here. Fortunately some of his lectures are here on yt as well, so you can dive in. I really envy his students, I would pack my semesters full with his lectures.
The man is absolutely compelling. I find his presentations uniquely spellbinding.
The Man, The Myth, The Ditch!!!
I love this man soo much. He explains history with soo much fineese.
Of course they had bronze shields. It's much easier to dig a ditch with a bronze shield than with a wooden one.
I love Roel. I’ve been a huge fan of his historical analysis since i saw him as a guest on Ancient Warfare Magazine Podcast years ago.
I didn't know he did a podcast before. Is it on Spotify!?
@@Redbravo001 it is indeed! Roel was on at least 3 episodes
I love listening to Roel, I love listening to any historian who has a passion for what they teach/talk about.
This guy is my favorite of this genre.
my favorite build more ditches guy
I've been digging ditches around my house for 12 hours a day ever since I first saw this dude.
My favourite historian!
I just love listening to Roel, he makes me enthusiastic about learning history
Ditchs! Lotsa and lotsa ditches! Ditches for DAYS! Love the Ditchs-Guy!
my ex-wife did too. She ditched me.
Great discussion. Love Roel, and also really like the enthousiasm from the presentor!
One suggestion/question for the future: can you give a really quick introduction before the interview next time? Just explain in 3 sentences who the Spartans where, from when till when did they live, and what was their reputation?
I understand a lot of history buffs will probably know this already, but the average CZcams viewer who clicks on this might not. For example: I'm more of a medieval/modern history kind of guy, and I needed to look up some of the basics on wikipedia after some of the questions. I'm not even sure they mentioned that the dates they're talking about are BC (might have missed this ;))
That being said, lovely video, Keep up the good work!
That's always a good intro. 1. What's the subject? 2. Why are we talking about it? 3. What I will say?
Great to bring on Roel. Such wealth of knowledge. Very enjoyable to listen to. Also admire your knowledge in the subject, Tristan.
These Spartans used their prowess and reputation instead of ditches and moats, truely their downfall
The Spartans were good, but apparently they were even better at PR. By repeating their myths they managed to dominate Greece for a while, until the Thebans saw through it and broke their hegemony.
The Peloponnesian war and the Helot uprisings were painful scars on their power
Granted, all the hyping up of the Spartans was mostly done by Athenians lol. Those damn laconophiles(Xenophon)
He is finally back!!! YESSSS, our Master of pointy sticks and the Overlord of the Ditch.
A very informative and riveting conversation which gives a real feel for how the men of Sparta lived.
Well son of a ditch! "Wherrrre are your ditches??" Definitely looking forward to this!
I always listen to “The Ancients” love to see history hit give Tristan a CZcams pod!
Thank you ( history Hit) for this magnificent historical coverage video about Spartans ( one of the Helenic civilizations ) ..
Now THIS is the kind of content I love.
Love his take in ancient history
I'm just here to read the ditch comments.
More of these please. This was excellent
That was utterly fantastic! Took me back to 3 Unit Ancient History classes at high school.
"Spartan love was not obscene. If a young man dare to tolerate lewdness against him or if a young lover tried hubris to someone else, it wasn't in the interests of none to ashamed Sparta so in such a case they were both forced to leave Sparta or loose their lives"
«Σπαρτιάτης δε έρως αισχρόν ουκ είδεν είτε γαρ μειράκιον ετόλμησεν ύβριν υπομείναι είτε εραστής υβρίσαι, αλλ΄ ουδερέροις ελυσιτέλησε την Σπάρτην εγκαταμείναι ή γαρ της πατρίδος απηλλάγησαν ή και το έτι θερμόμετρον και του βίου αυτού.»
Aelians various history § 3.12
* lose. Epic fail!
Just because you do not hear weapons training, it doesn't mean that it did not happen. It could very well be that the authors took that for granted.
52:00 I had this question for a VERY LONG time. Thank you for answering it!
He needs to review the historical accuracy of The Great Wall (2016)
Love this guy! More ditches!!
Dr. Dig Sum Ditches. 💯
I need a part 4 of the Lord of Ditchingham and until I get it I will dig many ditcges in anticipation for this mans return
Love this guy!
I REALLY enjoyed that.
I find your video's lack of ditches disturbing...
Of course they have the Ditch Guy talking about "diggin' em out" too. Makes perfect sense.
I love this guy
My 6 weeks daughter was trying to break my finger, and I wondered why. Now I understand. Thank you😌
Very informative. Though I still am reminded of how long it took to train rock solid troops in the 17 and 18 th century. It took a few years to fully train those men .
Interesting! However, while I understand that the concept of “Ancient Sparta” may be a very glorified, exaggerated, and misinterpreted version by many today, I feel like he goes out of his way to make Sparta sound like it’s nothing special. Or worse, that it’s the same as other contemporary city-states of the time.
But, if that’s the case, how does that explain their unparalleled success on the battlefield and countless Archaic and Classical authors regaling tales of how different their society was from others? I dunno, it just doesn’t add up to me. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle… 🤔
From what I’ve read, it’s generally accepted that they were the best, but only marginally. There’s no evidence they had specialized weapon training, so scholars think their X factor on the battlefield was their unit cohesion. Spartans lived together and dined together in the common mess, so they were largely in sync, making them a fierce opponent. All other city states would’ve been a bunch of civilians thrown into a phalanx. This small X factor would’ve been enough to give them a big edge over other Greek city states. So to answer your question, they weren’t just your average Greek militia hoplite. However, they were not the ultra special forces ancient soldiers that some people think.
Their success was far from unparallel: they lost against thebe and became subserviant to the achean league
Not to mention they only won the Peloponnesian war against Athens because they were being bankrolled by Persia and the Athenians didn't understand epidemiology (Plague of Athens).
Sold out their fellow Greeks to the Persians, artificially inflated military reputation, vicious and prolific slaveholders (even for the time). The Spartans were not cool.
@@thucydides7849 That fact that there is no evidence that they had specialized weapon training does not mean that they did not. The fact that there is no evidence that I brushed my teeth a year ago Tuesday night does not mean that I did not. No evidence means simply that.
But how we’re the Spartans at building ditches? That’s what we’re here for
Ironically the way the training is it would mean longbow men were more of a warrior society than Sparta, as their training started at 7 and it was physical, they would have to sit in fields with a heavy stone in each hand and hold them out, for an undefined amount of time and it was mandated by law to train with a bow and arrow.
The return of the king!
So, we have "focus on body and workout + financially supported by others" = Spartans being basically trophy wives
omg it's him!!! Ditch guy is back lesssgoooooooo!!
The Spartans could be defeated, they weren’t invincible, oh and at Thermopylae, there wasn’t just 300 Spartans, lots of other Greeks.
Including 700 hoplites from Thespiae who deserve to have the same legacy as the Spartans, as they voluntarily stood with them on the last day of battle and fought to the death to buy the others time to withdraw. 400 Thebans also stood on the last day, though unlike the Thespians, they weren't given a choice due to their sympathies to the Persians. The Spartans basically forced them to stay due to their treachery. But by all accounts, the Thespians willingly stayed knowing they would die. It's a shame their heroism was largely forgotten by history.
it’s just because the spartan 300 sounds better than the spartan 300 and the thespiae 700 and a couple thebeians , it’s all marketing
@@blakeprocter5818 The thebans surrendered and joined the persians. Defeated later at Plataea.
Couldn't find a single ditch!
Thank you.
Thanks!
Man, I’ve had a few wars with Argos in my time
Roel
Brilliant! Thank you :0)
No matter what anyone thinks they know, without ever being in an armed force you don’t know anything about drill. It takes time to learn formations. And it takes years to perfect them.
To just get out on a line formation in a squad might seem to be easy. But it takes weeks and months to perfect it or to even do it well.
To perform and formation in larger units takes even longer. To perform modern combat formations in a company takes years to perfect. To form up an army in the way the Spartans are known to have done is almost impossible for a non professional army.
It takes weeks to make a pluton of conscripts to just walk in formation on level ground.
Is there a good book about Spartan history I should read?
Great interview, very pleasant story teller you are mr roel. Greetings from Belgium, please start your own channel, no doubt u’d be be very successful 🙏
Good to get iphikrates opinion on this! Real ones will know what I’m saying.
learning about the Spartan myth actually changed the way I viewed history. It’s the equivalent of learning as a child that Santa doesn’t actually exist. The idea of Sparta is just so extraordinary that it’s something you want to believe.
The most humbling thing about learning of the warriors of the past, is that they arent as special or superhuman as they are made out to bw. Rather, the gap between us and them is within the reach of any man who is willing to go far enough. Not to suggest there werent elite or extraordinary individuals of course.
What’s the myth though?
@@minimannik the myth is that ancient spartans were essentially special forces level good. There is no evidence they had specialized weapons training. They were better fighters than all the greeks, but only marginally. Their real x factor was unit cohesion
@@thucydides7849 By comparison to other Greek states the Spartans were special forces in the art of hoplite warfare. They consistently won battles and wars for an extended period. The reputation is well deserved and should be respected. As for the training, agoge etc there’s ambiguity as to what exactly they did but if Spartans were fitter and more disciplined is that not the very definition of specialised? Do you not see the contradiction in what you’re saying? I really don’t get the point of any of this other than offering clickbait. All people learn here is to be speculative to historical claims. But making the case Spartans weren’t that good? Comical. They were the dominant Greek city state for centuries and you only achieve this through warfare.
@@minimannik regular exercise is not what i mean by specialized weapons training. There is not any evidence that the agoge involved practicing with sword and spear. All evidence points towards the agoge being more of a societal indoctrination program where they were taught to be proper citizens. The spartans lived together and dined together, this factor alone would've given them an edge over all other militia hoplite forces in greece. but keep in mind, The first time spartans went against an opposing professional force, they lost(sacred band of thebes).
While i obviously didn't view spartans in the way 300 presents them , i did somewhat naively assume that brutal elite warrior society without really thinking about it too much. Makes sense, history in general is always so much more nuanced and rational when you actually spend some time reading about the various periods from first hand (or closer to first hand at least) accounts.
one point id like to add as just my own hypothesis about the quote " come back with your shield or on it" what if it just means "win" as to say, you come back with your shield without any wounds, or you come back being carried on your shield wounded in either case the fact that you come back home means you won the fight as otherwise the saying would be "come back with your shield or don't come back at all." just my own view as I cant imagine the Spartans would ever think of the possibility of defeat as if they ever ask themselves "oh but what if" then that's it they are screwed, the battle is never lost until you think its lost as to the showing of the 300 Argives vs 300 Spartans 1 spartan managed to comeback but because he wasn't dead to that spartan that means that he won.
Roel Konijnendijk letsgoooo
"Imposed Conservatism" is a great summation of Sparta's institutions and culture. Greatly enjoyed listening to this, although I feel like one aspect of Spartan Culture and Society was left relatively untouched; the orientation of society around the enslavement of a far, far, far, more numerous population. The threat of helot revolts was an ever present danger for Sparta and a constant effect on the Spartan psyche. A big reason so much uniformity and readiness was demanded was because they didn't want to give any opening for a slave uprising.
Exactly. They certainly would’ve had a good reason to have a battle ready population given their entire lifestyle depended on keeping a whole population enslaved
1:30 What he failed to mention is that the Spartans were the undefeated champion of propaganda. The founders of Sparta never wanted to go to war, so they thought about what caused war and what prevented nations from going to war. What they came up with is, wars are started because one nation has something another nation wants, and wars are prevented when the surrounding nations think that they can never defeat you. As a result, they became a closed society and when they let foreigners in, they hid all their wealth and told the foreigners that they hated luxuries and money, so they had none.
Sparta won the peloponesian war and every major battle for at least a couple centuries though 😂 they never lost pitched battles until Epiminondas of Thebes finally caught them out.
Thanks for admitting you literally know nothing about Spartan history.
@@mrwhat5094 It looks like you do not know what the word nothing means.
@@mrwhat5094 When I wrote leaders, I should have said founders. Sparta fell because they went against their founding principles.
I saw ditch guy and clicked lmao
Hey it's the historian Robert Pattinson, been a long time since I last seen him in a video
The Spartans are cool!
Could those polished brass shields also blind their opponents? Reflecting light into their eyes? And the red (or purple) garments mask injury? Make it more difficult at least at first, to judge impact?
Indeed the red chiton of hoplites was to hide their wounds.
We are indeed told that the red/purple of the Spartan clothing might hide blood, though the main argument was that it was a manly colour. As for the flashing bronze blinding opponents, funnily enough, the ancient Greeks don't talk about this. There are some Roman cases of defeated armies complaining that they had the sun in their eyes, but the Greeks don't seem to be troubled by this. Since bronze was a common feature anyway, maybe it wasn't considered a particular advantage of the Spartans.
I'm an avid listener of The Ancients on Spotify, and this is the first time I've seen the Tristorian himself!
The ditchtorian you mean? 😂
Xenophon ,'Hellenica , also writes about the Spartan shields with the 'LAMDA'- not only Aristophanes
Unfortunately, he doesn't! He only says (4.4.10) that when a group of Spartan cavalry (which would normally have no shields) dismounted and picked up the Sigma shields dropped by their Sikyonian allies, their commander challenged the overconfident enemy with the words "By the twin gods, these sigmas will decieve you!" All we can glean from the passage is that Sikyonians would be recognised by the sigma on their shields; there is no reference to any Spartan shields here.
@@DrRoelKonijnendijkyep.
Yes , Lamda is not mentioned in the shields of the Spartans in this paragraph of Xenophon , just one would think the reason for this change of shields by the Spartan leader , did the enemies carefully consider what kind of shields they had against them ?This is an hipotesis of course ./Παυλίνα Μαρνέρη
@@paulinemarneri297 The Spartans were cavalry. They had no shields of their own, so they picked up the Sikyonian shields to be able to fight on foot.
"Why did the Spartans prefer to fight on foot?"
Is there a parallel with the English knight of the Middle Ages who also preferred to fight on foot compared with their Euro knight cousins (according to Toby Capwell)?
Or just superficial similarities...
The English fought on foot to support their archers which made up the bulk of their army toward the late middle ages. Throughout much of their medieval history they fought similar to the rest of the Europe with mounted knights.
Your shield is your main protective against the enemy! Armor is your last life-insurance. Without your shield you are in danger. So better keep it!
“If Spartans had the best charioteers in the Olympic Games, why didn’t they ride horses in combat?”
Ditches good sir. You can’t stop a Spartan, not even with a ditch.
Son of a ditch, it’s Roel!
Did they built any ditches?
History Hit, when are we going to see the ditch digging merch inspired by Roel?
In all ancient cultures the combat training started very soon it wasn't only the spartans. And if the spartans were really so superior they should have controlled all Greece and even territories outside of it but they didn't.
They did, they won the Peloponnese war and established the Spartan hegemony, Southern Greece, Greek islands, Cyprus, Libya, Asia Minor and Italy
The master of the ditch has returned. 🎉🎉
Did Sparta have archers? Specialty Javelin hurlers?
With 300 nobody mentions the Navy much. Which is fairly important for any Empire. Its like that with the American Revolution where not too many people mention the French connection, Navy, arms, clothing and training