GMTK is made possible thanks to the support of over 4000 amazing supporters on Patreon! Please consider pledging $1 a month to the channel to keep the videos coming - www.patreon.com/GameMakersToolkit
Wholly agree with your assessment. I think the design of Yooka-Laylee has mistakes similar to Banjo-Tooie though they aren't quite as bad. The levels are fine on their own but once players can embiggen them it becomes entirely too much to process. More and smaller would have been better. Also, Banjo-Kazooie used musical notes much like the Mario games use coins: to lead players through the level. Neither Banjo-Tooie nor Yooka-Laylee does it like this or as well as the original Banjo-Kazooie.
I like that Banjo Tooie was more then other 3d platformers at that time - too many other platformers & games had separated individual worlds for my taste.
As the other designer of Banjo-Tooie, I salute anyone that persevered to finish it. It was always intended to be more of an adventure game than a platform game (hence everything being interconnected), thanks in part to Ocarina of Time, which influenced us a lot. Grunty Industries was the first level I ever designed and it was an exercise in proving myself (though it was refined and approved by Gregg). What made sense on paper in the literal form of a map was much more difficult to navigate in-game and in-head. I'd like to say 20+ years of hindsight have highlighted how over-complicated and user-unfriendly Banjo-Tooie is at time but the truth is we knew almost immediately, before the game launched, but by then it was too late to do much about it, which leads me to: FUN FACT: the warp pads were added right at the end to aid navigation after all the other paths and connections were designed. Thanks to GMTK for this great analysis and to everyone else for playing.
I'm curious, was Grunty Industries intended to be the final main level at any point? It makes more sense in terms of difficulty, complexity and aesthetic as the final challenge than Cloud Cuckooland does.
@@manjackson2772 I do know Cauldron Keep was supposed to be a full level. About half the illustrated maps detailing their ideas have been floating around online. It looked incredible, like storming a castle.
Honestly, banjo kazooie, tooie, DK64 and conkers bad furday are some of the most insane games on that console. Rare were absolute masters of their craft.
I always loved how Banjo-Kazooie had a sort of "swimming difficulty curve", introducing more and more perilous water for each level. (Basically every level has at least one underwater section). You go from the tiny river in Mumbo's Mountain to the beach with a shark-imposed time limit in Treasure Trove Cove before you get an actual water level where oxygen is a factor, and later on you get polluted and chilly water with special effects.
I never even thought about this! Don't forget the small pool in Spiral Mountain where you collect a honeycomb piece - you're encouraged to explore the water from the very beginning of the game.
The fact that Banjo-Tooie shipped with all of these new worlds, their interconnections, and new moves in two years with virtually no bugs that you would ever encounter on a casual playthrough is a monumental achievement. It is well-deserving of the video on this channel dedicated to its legacy, even if not everything said was positive. I still find it a total masterpiece.
It's what I call a perfect sequel. Even if the Stop N Swop was extreme waste of time solving I still call it one of the best jump platform games ever made.
Tooie is an absolute technical masterpiece. While not always, it often felt on-scale with DK64, with more colour and liveliness, and no Expansion Pak needed!
i wish we had a game that’s world felt as real and interconnected as Banjo Tooie but with levels you could complete in one go 😢 especially if it were a game like Super Mario Sunshine but no kicking out of the level after a Shine/you could travel between levels on the fly instead of having to return to the hub all the time
@@zgiffish We almost get that with Odyssey! Though sadly the interconnected nature comes down to getting to a disconnected area of a world through a painting, oftentimes in only a one-way manner :(
yup pretty much i have the same experience, while i agree that TODAY is more fun to go back to Kazooie since it is easier to 100% complete due to the way it is designed, Tooie is still overall better to me, when i was a kid it was more fun to discover stuff in there because you had to explore, also it had better minigames and bosses, the big gameplay difference between the two is that Kazooie is actually a platformer while Tooie is more an adventure game.
Yes, me and my sister had a lot of fun growing up with this world. We designed menus like Jolly Roger’s and recreated the Tower of Tragedy quiz cards! 👏🏼
The interconnectivity of everything is what made me love this game. I was a kid when this released so I had nothing but time, and time I definitely took. This is one of my favorite adventure/platformer games I've ever played
This. I spent like literally a whole month of non stop playing Donkey Kong 64 backtracking to change characters for bananas to 100% the game and enjoyed the grind. Today I would not even attempt this without the character swap hack on an emulator.
Yup. I loved Kazooie and Tooie equally as a kid so it was funny to see all the hate for Tooie in recent years. But now with a job and my ever dwindling social time and even less game time I don’t think I could stomach Tooie.
19:32 Unintuitively, the opposite can also happen, where you get a new ability and forget about an old one. In Ori 1, I've seen quite a few people completely forget that Ori can drop through soft platforms (by pressing Down+Jump) after they get the Stomp ability (which requires pressing Down while airborne).
or even in Banjo-Tooie. The Cactus of Strength jiggy in Witchyworld require you to use both stomp abilities(+ a grenade egg) to get it. Some people might think the drill ability completely overwrite the basic stomp and never even try that.
I find this comment hilarious because I did exactly that just two days ago! I'm playing through Ori 1 for the first time, and it took me a while to progress through a part where Kuro is looking for me because I needed to drop down through a bridge in order to hide behind something. I tried just running across the bridge, then I tried stomping the bridge in different spots maybe three times before I remembered I could just drop through it!
As a kid, not having guides or anything like that, I loved just picking apart the game, popping it open just to explore and find things and stumble into stuff. It really felt like an endless font of things to discover and pick apart. I also remember being really scared of the dinosaur stomping ground in Terrydactyland! Walking in there and just hearing the SILENCE and not knowing what was happening was scary back then!
having studied these levels a lot for my own development, i really appreciate seeing you identify concepts like "zones" and "central landmarks" in Banjo-Kazooie's levels - they're so important for navigation and memorable design!
Devs really looked at the Disneyland / Disney World model of world design back then, Rare themselves even admitted it. I'm sure it's still relevant to design today. Even this vid's use of the word "weenies" to describe big central landmarks is the same term used to describe Sleeping Beauty's Castle, the Matterhorn, Space Mountain, etc
@@chompythebeast i hadn't considered that but it makes total sense - amusement parks are designed to lead people to every part of them and to be easily navigable, after all! surprisingly similar design space. thanks for sharing!
Absolutely! This was, among other things, something that I believe really held back Yooka-Laylee. I found it much more difficult to orient myself in most of the levels, and I concluded that it was a combination of a more open level design and less visually distinct landmarks. I recall there was only a level or two which had good weenies, and I liked those a lot more than the others.
@@chompythebeast amusement parks and video game levels are basically the same exact thing, sculpted immersive experiences meant to draw you in and encourage you to explore and have fun
I can absolutely see the critique you could aim at Tooie and in what ways the first game was better in terms of world design, but to my child mind at the time Banjo-Tooie was an amazing upgrade. It might have been a lot to juggle mentally, but there was also so much to explore, and most transformations were a delight. There was just a sense of wonder and inspiration from how they all connected, even if they weren't problems you consciously thought about but were just "doing stuff" to see what would work. Simply seeing something happen in a different world because you hit a button because why wouldn't you, still came with a satisfying feeling that you just discovered something neat.
Well that's always been the thing. Tooie has its faults, but for a first time playthrough a lot of it is pretty trivial to complain about. A lot of the complaints against Tooie can only fairly be raised after playing the game 2 to 3 times. I feel like while it could have done better, Tooie is still an overall better or at least equal game for a first playthrough. But there's definitely a mix between Kazooie and Tooie right there that would be just perfect (and A Hat in Time somewhat did that in some of its levels to be fair, but at a level-scale, not world-scale)
Click Clock Wood is my favorite video game level of all time. So, you know, it’s not a mistake. It’s just very much itself and commits to its idea really hard, which I love.
It's crazy how much it feels like it's own thing. Like each level got more difficult and complex up to Rusty Bucket Bay and then boom. Welcome to Alice in Wonderland.
Banjo Tooie is a game that shapped probably my entire childhood. I think its the first game I played to completion, and something I spent countless hours in as a kid wandering and just hanging out in worlds. I cannot emphasize how goddamn ecstatic I am not only to see a Boss Keys on this series, but on one that focuses on Tooie specifcally, a game people in digital spaces largely lament for not holding up to its predecesor, or other 3-D platformers of that era. This is maybe the most excited ive been to see a video in my subscriptions in a long while. Thank you.
It makes me sad that Tooie isn’t as highly regarded. I’ve always felt like Tooie took everything from the first game and made it better, and then some. I have nothing but praise for it.
@@Scuuurbs I also really like the changes Tooie made and it has a special place in my heart. Though I must admit that when I revisited as an adult some years ago, all the (IMO incredibly cool and worthwhile) additions mentioned in the video, it did make it much less accessible. I don't have time anymore to wonder around these worlds and if you don't play for a while you have no clue where to go. That said, as a child we did have that time and it was awesome
@@ling8956The quality of a game is usually its ability to attract a wide variety of customers. The more a product alienates people, the more liking it puts you as the odd one out, the worse said game is. I am not a fan of Zelda games, but I can understand why it appeals too such a large group. Something about Banjo Tooie alienated more gamers than Kazooie did.
I played both as a kid and liked Tooie better than the first one. I think people disregard it just because they compare it to the original, but I've alwas seen it as having two different objectives and two different vibes, like Kazooie is more focused on objectives and execution, while Tooie asks you to just explore and tackle challenges just as you encounter them with the abilities available to you. If you ask me to finish Tooie in a week and then write a review I would completely hate it, but I still have so much fun playing it just for the fun of exploring and finding weird and fun things to do in the massive world it has.
Perfect pfp. I still rock the unlockable Banjo-Kazooie gamer pic you got from the 360 version to this day. It's a tiny little low res PNG square floating in the middle of the modern Xbox's circular pfp frame, and I love it lol
World game design is simply mind-blowing! The way game developers create entire universes and immerse us in breathtaking landscapes and stories is truly an art form. It's not just about the graphics and gameplay, it's about crafting a whole new world with its own rules and logic.
One additional system change in Tooie that I just want to highlight for being very smartly handled IMO is the change to the note system. In Kazooie, the levels were small enough that notes could be individually dotted around the level as a breadcrumb trail. With the levels in Tooie becoming bigger, the developers could have easily decided to stuff the levels with more notes, but instead they went the opposite route, compressing the individual notes into stacks and placing them around points of interest, allowing the player to focus on the expanded objectives without worrying about missing a single note somewhere. To see an example of this in action, take a look at Yooka-Laylee, which did stuff individual low tier collectibles into levels the size of Tooie's.
I think the biggest problem with the way Tooie, and by extension YL, handled it compared to Kazooie is that you only get the breadcrumbs once. Kazooie you always follow the same path to get somewhere and because the notes retun it is in fact identical, but in the other games you lose that added sense of direction. Even something simple like having "ghost" notes/quills after exiting the level and returning would have helped.
Yooka-Laylee's issue with the quills is that they're not PLACED like a breadcrumb trail to lead you through the level, often they're placed on random geometry and there's a few nebulously hidden ones that are practically impossible to find without the item detector. I'm also still salty with Psychonauts 2 for some of its figment placements, like how Bob's Bottles has figments on a one-way slide segment, behind a fridge portal, and THE BROWN COCONUTS THAT COMPLETELY BLEND INTO THE TREES THEY'RE PLACED ON.
@GameDevYal Yeah, the fact that Yooka-Laylee goes out of its way to hide a few of the quills (see: the lone quill on the hidden cliffside path behind the rock wall on the first level) instead of consistently using them for path signalling like Kazooie does is definitely big contributing factor, in addition to the larger level size just naturally spacing the quills out more than Kazooie's notes.
@@GameDevYal WTF? Did they do the same thing with the figments they did in the FIRST game? (I haven't had a chance to play the sequel yet) I'd say Psychonauts is the absolute worst game as far as collecting everything goes since the figments are so hard to see and some are put in the most out of place areas possible (I'm looking at you Waterlooworld) and are only salvaged by all of them being numbered so you can look up which ones you're missing and find them.
As divisive as Click Clock Wood can be, I've always loved how it handles the Witch Switch Jiggy. You hit the Witch Switch in Winter, the final season, but in order to get the Jiggy from it, you need the Bee transformation, which you can only get in the first season, Spring. So assuming you're playing all 4 seasons in order, you see the wood grow quieter over the year, only to see it burst into life again during your final visit in Spring, before you leave for good. I thought it was a nice touch 🙂
@@anima94 It's a really cool concept, but it's also huge and takes forever to explore. Since all worlds in Banjo-Kazooie have roughly the same amount of content, this also means it's spread pretty thin. When I played through the game in 2018 with my partner at the time, she remarked that Click Click Wood was "boring".
Everything you pointed out made me realize why BK didnt overwhelm me when trying to fit everything about a level into my head. I tend to get panicky due to fear of missing something or forgetting a path because it becomes too many, but BK really managed to pack its levels really nicely
I honestly prefer Tooie. I absolutely love the complexity and interconnectivity between the worlds. I'm also a weirdo who loves backtracking and it feels so satisfying to come back to finally finish certain jiggies.
My issue with Tooie wasn't with backtracking nor interconnectivity per se. It was that the game did not provide the player with the _tools_ to understand the network system. I remember collecting 9/10 jiggies in one stage, being able to _see_ the tenth jiggie behind an impassable window, and thereby scouring every corner of the stage looking for a way to access it, and of course never finding it. Later I would learn that the jiggie grotto could only be accessed by some random door three stages away. It was essentially a grotto belonging to that later stage, whose collectables were tracked on the previous stage's totals. It gave the game a sense of randomness rather than exploration or puzzle solving. Combine that with the massive level design, and the absolute pump of difficulty like the Canary Mary jiggies, and they had a recipe for many players quitting before reaching 100%. A lot of us felt quite bitter about it.
@@Roezaea I love the massive level design and difficulty (although I don't like some particular jiggies like canary Mary). The grottos leading back to certain jiggies are something I actually enjoy because it makes the world feel more tied together. In addition, I completely disagree about not providing the tools to understand the networking system because the game introduces this concept very early on with Dilberta, thereby telling you that you might have to go to other stages to unlock certain jiggies. Maybe I could understand it if you get stuck on the first stage with the bill drill jiggy, but after Dilberta's mission, you should definitely be aware that later stages may lead to the jiggies of earlier stages.
@@aidansilli4257yes they tell you other levels might lead to jiggies, but the creator of this video gives a good example of how in Metroid they would use a tool to show when something was complete or when you needed to back track - the commenter you replied to, the author, and many others share a similar sentiment that there could have been a better way to implement this aspect of the game.
@@Roezaea I understand visual presentation is key to get some of those jiggles, but not everything has to be hand holding and You really need to figure out by yourself to get that reward in order to obtain 100%
One thing that I don't think you mentioned that ties into how Banjo-Tooie seems connected is how the beginning area of the game in the sequel is the same as it is in the original. You can still enter the carving of Grunty's face on the mountain, even if the path to the worlds in the original game is blocked. The sequel takes place by traveling in a different direction from the start of Spiral Mountain. I don't think a game had ever done that before and I thought it was so cool.
Majora's Mask... sorta did that? Though the opening area doesn't look like the lost woods, even though it's supposed to be a part of that. But it came out about a month before Banjo Tooie, and Ocarina of Time also came out the same year as Banjo Kazooie, the parallels there are pretty cool
@@MaxonerousX We're also forgetting that the gold and silver versions of Pokemon hit American shores about a month before this game, which did something similar (and better) by connecting Kanto and Johto. But I guess my point was that this is the first time I encountered it during a time where it was still pretty unheard of.
You could also assert that the same company tried to make the player connect the world within their head-canon with Donkey Kong Country 2, but most kids don't have the skills to observe such a thing.
Despite all the frustrations this is still my all time favorite pair of games. I think I’ve finally decided that I like the first one better but it took me a solid decade to make up my mind. Especially in the case of tooie these are examples of games that really are best played with some sort of map. At the time I had Nintendo power magazine and I remember keeping the edition with the tooie maps into my 20’s. And I think because I played the games with a map on my lap I avoided much of the frustration you describe.
Never apologize for videos like this Mark! I absolutely love your longer videos such as this, Commanding Shepard, and your three part Dead Space analysis. In fact, I’d love to see more like this and Dead Space where you explore how a game series has changed between entries. While some aspects of games don’t need too much time to explore, it’s always great when you can go in-depth on a particular game or mechanic to really see how all the different aspects fit together.
I would love to see you cover Nuts 'n' Bolts at some point. As divisive as it was for fans of the previous games, I ended up absolutely loving it in the long run. There is truly astounding physics work that went into it when it comes to vehicle handling and how different pieces, weight distribution, and wheel/wing number and spacing affect the quality of your ride.
Playing Tears of the Kingdom really had me aching for that simple garage system that N&B had. There's a lot of physics in that game, but you have so little control. I had a ton of fun just building junk vehicles and fiddling with minute differences in design, but now i can only shift things manually, only save like 8 designs, and have no control over what turns on. Made me nostalgic for N&B, really My main problem was that it felt like the missions were either "do you have this part?" puzzles or annoying races. I recall few missions where I felt like I got to make my own fun the way I do in Tears of the Kingdom, but I remember enjoying hours and hours just goofing off with my brother in the practice area, building and battling our vehicles. It be interesting to try N&B after Tears. hard not to compare Nintendo adventures pivoting to vehicles out of nowhere, one fails and one succeeds
This is perhaps an odd compliment, but your videos are a masterclass in how to logically group concepts. As a software engineer, a lot of my time is spent trying to find ways to abstract commonalities in architecture, and I am continually impressed by how well you are able to group concepts together. Thanks for producing such amazing content!
As a kid, my parents got me Banjo Toole without ever having played Banjo Kazooie first. I think as confusing as the game technically is, I loved that it felt so vast that I wasn't getting everything right on my first pass, that I had to continue to explore and learn and see what was working and what didn't. Frankly, I don't think I even finished it as a kid, but I always enjoyed just moving around and playing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fantastic video! I feel like it is such a shame we didn't get another Banjo game with the time and resources to tweak the ideas in Banjo-Tooie with smarter level design. While yes we have Mario Odyssey taking on some of the best ideas from Banjo-Kazooie, its a really forgotten genre now.
In recent years the 3D platformer genre has actually saw a little comeback with other games such as Yooka-Laylee, A Hat in Time, Super Lucky's Tale, the Crash and Spyro remakes, Crash 4, Sonic Frontiers, etc. Not all of these are open exploration based, but still, the situation is better than like 10 years ago.
It certainly is, I wish there were more that hit the heights however. Was disappointed in Yooka-Laylee, but did enjoy A Hat in Time for sure.@@19Szabolcs91
What I remember most from Tooie is how much I laughed! Seriously the dynamic between Banjo, Kazooie and everyone else is amazing! Walking through Bottles family home while Banjo doesn't want to tell them and Kazooie is making digging and burying jokes: Savage!! 🤣🤣😂
Heck yeah! When I was a kid I was very into all the extra complexity of Tooie, but you're right that the levels are just a lot harder to navigate in general. Thanks for this look back!
I feel so lonely in how much I adore Banjo Tooie. While I had tried Kazooie once at a cousin's house, I was actually given Banjo-Tooie as a gift first. And that game absolutely won me over. When I played Kazooie properly later, while I appreciated it, Banjo Tooie was still so much more satisfying. I feel like Banjo Tooie was the perfect platformer. I wish there were more games like Tooie
I'm sure playing Tooie for the first time as an adult would be infuriating, but playing it as a _kid?_ Man, this game was everything to me. I had all the time in the world to get lost, explore, transform, swap characters, explore some more, and then stumble upon the answer to a riddle. Compared to so many other colorful collect-a-thons on the platform, young me _adored_ the enormous world. It made me feel really smart at times, and discovering new connected paths blew my mind. Again, I had the disposable time of a child in the early-2000s. And I think it's kinda great that we had games like that back when we were able to appreciate them instead of just grow frustrated at them through the lens of busy adults.
I agree that Kazooie is honestly one of the Greatest games ever made. Right behind Oot, botw, metroid prime and GTA, but is Tooie worth trying? I've tried getting into it, getting to grunty industries, but i just give up because I feel like the magic is missing. It's a bit too dark and lacks that magic that BK had. But I feel like I should try again. Any input?
@@nicksharma8238 all right just making sure^^ Tooie is definitely not on that level but its not a bad game. Its still really good, just more along the 8/10 mark than the 10/10+ mark.
Thanks SO MUCH for taking time to explain the previous game. I think it's so useful for young people like me who wasn't even born in those years and couldn't play the "old gems". Many videos took it for granted and it's not so pleasant. So, again, Thank you! I love your work and care you put in these videos.
These games were literally some of the first open worlds. They paved the way for the games we have today. Seriously back then most games were very short linear things that could be finished in a few hours.
I made a video on this topic a while back (deliberately commenting with my regular account + not linking to avoid being a schill), so it makes me happy to see more people acknowledge this! The world design in BT absolutely astounded me as a kid.
Unraveling world connectivity is always such a blast to see! i'd love to see videos covering the resident evil games as I feel that a number of their games can often feel like a zelda dungeon with how you solve puzzles and explore the world. the village in RE8 in particuar always suprised me in that way
One of my favorite series is the gate of memories series. There's 2 games in the series, with a third announced last month. Exploration is a cornerstone of the first game anima gate of memories, whereas in its sequel anima gate of memories the nameless chronicles, exploration takes a back seat to the story. A world design video on the two anima gate of memories games would be really cool as they both have a different take on world design. I've been trying to get a larger youtube channel to do a video on this series and its been a pain for years at this point. Thanks!
"Mark will almost definitely not see this, but let's all just take a moment to appreciate how much effort he puts into these videos. Truly, thank you, Mark.
@@jarlwhiterun7478 Yes, a comma and a capital letter, definitely worth a comment. I am, in fact, a professional author who once also sought to correct everyone in comment sections. One day, I realized that the point of language is communication and understanding between individuals, not to correct each other. It is the content and the meaning of the words that matter. Also, if you want to be objectively correct, "Abysmal grammar" is not even a complete sentence.
Glad to see more of these episodes! I'd still love to see a breakdown of something like classic Doom games which are touted as feeling nonlinear compared to contemporary FPS games including the newer Doom games: how non-linear are they really? How do they make it feel non-linear? Stuff like that.
Banjo Kazooie is my favorite game to the point that I go watch reactions to the banjo smash bros reveal when I'm feeling down in the dumps. I wasn't expecting to see it show up in GMTK, but I'm absolutely ecstatic that it has! Thanks for all the hard work and never feel bad about any video you put out. You could do a 12 video long deep dive on Grabbed by the Ghoulies and I'd watch the whole thing. (Well, most of it anyway.) Much love!
I get that Click Clock Wood can be frustrating, but it is the final world. It's always been my favorite by a long shot. The main issue is that notes don't save in the N64 version. Without that, I think it's fair to have actually challenging vertical platforming (without bottomless pits, too!)
Notes not saving in the N64 version was actually one of the major flaws of the game. I never understood why they made it like that. I mean I get it - they are like coins in SM64. But still their mechanic is different enough that saving them would have been very useful. Also requirements for beating the game were really high in B-K. 810 out of 900 notes and I think 94 of 100 jiggies for the final boss door. 98 if you want to upgrade your health. Those are numbers you won't see in a game nowadays.
Glad to see this video. I haven't played Banjo-Tooie in over 20 years (come on Nintendo, put it on Nintendo Switch Online already), but it absolutely blew me away as a teenager, precisely because it broke so far from the mold of the original and Mario 64. The interconnected levels is an amazing feature that I'd love to see more of (although I suspect this has been partially supplanted by open world games). I do suspect that I've been looking at this game with rose-colored glasses though, and that if I ever do replay it, I'll be much more aware of its flaws like I was with Donkey Kong 64. Also, Canary Mary can go to hell.
I'm happy to see you finally cover Banjo Tooie, it's one of my favorite games ever. Banjo Tooie is great too, but the sequel is like 10 times better, improving and expanding on everything great about the first game. I'm definitely a person that really likes the increased complexity of Banjo Tooie (and Click Clock Wood was my favorite level in Banjo Kazooie). The interconnectivity and backtracking were awesome, making each level feel like it contained so much and like there were secrets everywhere. The fact that you started the game with all the abilities of Banjo Tooie as a baseline, and then earned a bunch more throughout the game. How the characters from Banjo Tooie carried over, but also new characters to fill their roles were also included (so Mumbo still exists, but this time you play as Mumbo, and Humba Wumba is inroduced to take Mumbo's old role). The awesome music and how it seamlessly changes instrumentation and tone as you move from zone to zone to adapt to that zone's atmosphere. Plus, all the multiplayer minigames that were added. It's all great. The only thing that could get kind of annoying is the dialogue sounds, which also existed in Banjo Kazooie. I do remember getting stuck on Grunty Industries a lot though. I thought the level was really cool, but also confusing. Also that room on the ice side of Hailfire Peaks that only has a jiggy looks like it has an ice window that could be destroyed with a fire egg, but I could be wrong.
Those who hate on Banjo Kazooie don't appreciate the challenge of a beautiful retro game. It is easy enough to complete when we assume the first 6 levels are a given if you're even slightly competent at collectathons. And then.... Mad Monster Mansion tests your proficiency against enemies. Rusty Bucket Bay tests your proficiency against environmental hazards. Click Clock Wood tests your concentration and patience. I've done 100% on a few occasions but I could definitely coach someone with the right attitude to the final boss by setting out minimum targets for the final three levels, and how to hit them! Great video!
Just looking at Banjo-Kazooie and hearing its fun music puts a smile on my face! Love that game so much ❤ I have to cook dinner now, but I'm really looking forward to watch the rest of this video!
@@Paul-to1nb micro$oft only cares about money and since nuts and bolts didnt make tens of millions they shelved it. They are literally buying studios to create a monopoly instead of using their existing franchises.
31:30 That was BECAUSE OF YOU? What a small world we live in! I'm a huge Kameo & Banjo fan so it was such a pleasant surprise to see a Banjo Easter Egg in Kameo. I had no idea it was because of a contest. Thank you for bringing such a cool skin to Pummel Weed
7:38 i still can't get over how well you timed the music, doing the chromatic fall into the main melody, with the footage and your voiceover, that's hilarious
I'm that odd breed who's more drawn to Tooie than Kazooie. For all the fair criticisms presented here, I think you also did a great job of articulating why I love it so much.
Kazooie is a game that has damn near infinite charm to me. It is one of only a handful of games that I would reasonably call perfect. Tooie never really hit the same highs for me but it's still a game that I enjoy quite a bit (except Grunty Industries, that level can die in a fire. It's not even a complexity thing, I adore the Water Temple. It's just purely tedious. It is everything that people whine about DK64 but worse). To me Kazooie vs Tooie has always seemed like an absolute showcase of the idea that less is more.
WOW. Thank you so much, Mark. One of my low-key favorite YT channels just up and does a deep dive on my two absolute favorite video games of all time. These are core memory games for me. I personally always felt that the complexity and fleshing out in Tooie was welcome-but I was also eight years old, and found as much pleasure in wasting time in the world and pretending that Banjo and Kazooie had full lives as I did in actually completing the objectives of the game. Thank you for honoring my favorite video game franchise of all time with your analysis 🙏🏼
Banjo Tooie is something I appreciate the challenge to do. It’s very satisfying to complete, but Banjo Kazooie is certainly easier to revisit. Banjo Tooie is one of my favorite games of all time.
I think there is a way to make a good balance between Banjo-Kazooie's more compact worlds, and Banjo-Tooie's connected worlds. With each one having it's own landmark, or weenies as you call them, in the center. With it being possible to affect future or previous levels that you have visited.
Banjo Kazooie and banjo tooie to me are both fantastic 3D platformers, thank you Mark Brown for making a video on two of my favourite childhood games, also i hope we meet again sometime :)
Whenever I reflect on Banjo Tooie I always wish I could shrink each level to about .75x its normal size because I really think it'd do wonders for the pacing. Backtracking feels so frustrating because even with warp pads and short cuts and Chuffy it takes forever to get back and forth where you need to go. I truly wouldn't mind most of the backtracking if I felt like I could get where I needed to go with the ease that I can in a Super Metroid or a Hollow Knight. Also just want to say thank you for Boss Keys, it's a fantastic series and one of my all time favorites on CZcams.
Thanks for this awesome video today! I love the banjo games and agree with you that the first one is probably better because of its simplicity. I remember the last time I played Tooie that I sometimes were surprised to really have everything on a level because so much happens simply while playing. So I think it gets better everytime you play it :D
Excellent analysis of these two gems, you really dug into how these two games feel so unique in their own way, both from each other and from other platformers of the era. I personally adore Tooie for its interconnected worlds and sense of scale, but I also understand why many prefer the straightforward, tighter balance of the first game.
A lot of the points made about Banjo Tooie being unintuitive are the precise reason why I favor it over the first. This is just a disagreement in game purpose, of course. I love the videos and look forward to the next!
Funny seeing you talk about kameo randomly at the end, I was thinking throughout the whole video how much I loved that game as well as tooie and wanted to re visit it
I’d love to see you tackle Nier Automata’s level design and changing environments! It’s a motif I’d love to see more in single player games, as the story changes the world does as well
You technically don't, but its so much easier with them. (Strategy to not need the trainers is to obsessively eat everything your opponent is about to)
I absolutely adore Kazooie and Tooie despite how massively different they are. Tooie felt absolutely gigantic when it came out, and even now the levels feel huge - almost too big. Edit: Wow, an Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet reference? My God!
Tooie definitely needed a Zelda-style map showing where you've been, where you came from, and where there are still items left. Another huge thing that Zelda gets right but many games don't: showing you what you just did and _where_ . The camera switches to show a door unlocking, then glides back to you so you can tell where that was. In lots of games, either it doesn't show the door at all, or it just cuts right back leaving you wondering where that door is. The minimap showing which door you entered from is another extremely helpful detail that not enough games have.
Banjo-Kazooie is my favourite game, I could play it all day but I have never finished Banjo-Tooie purely due to reasons mentioned in this video. The concise level design of the original is incredibly satisfying and being able to entirely check off a level before moving on serves a compulsive urge in my brain. I worked out pretty quickly in the first level of Banjo-Tooie what the new direction was and decided to quit there. Also, I liked Kameo, so thank you for service.
what's the point in having a high degree of challenge if it's not fun? challenge, like all elements of game design, is there to contribute to the puppet show. getting confused is only a good thing if it's enjoyable.
The more criticism I hear about Banjo-Tooie, the more I'm thankful I had the player's guide as a kid which spelled everything out and just let me get to the fun. Come to think of it, I had the guide for DK64 too. When you're a kid, you have lower standards for design and more time, and there was SO MUCH in those games. I just loved being in those worlds, and it was back when I only got a couple new games a year. Also, fun fact: the washing machine form was a joke in B-K. There was a very slight chance of Mumbo transforming you into it by accident, after which he would apologize and put you back. But there was also a cheat to transform and remain in that form, and he would question you for why you would even want that.
29:50 “Overwhelming” As someone who didn’t play the Banjo games until I was a young adult, that is the exact word I’d use to describe my experience with Tooie. I know a lot of people love that game, and more power to them, but I just couldn’t enjoy it as much as I would have hoped.
Subscribed just on the fact that you're putting the spotlight on Banjo-Tooie. Super underrated game imo, and deserves more discussion videos around it.
Man, I just finished my annual playthrough of both games last night, and now THIS drops in my feed? You always do amazing work but clearly you made this one just for me!
GMTK is made possible thanks to the support of over 4000 amazing supporters on Patreon! Please consider pledging $1 a month to the channel to keep the videos coming - www.patreon.com/GameMakersToolkit
Wholly agree with your assessment. I think the design of Yooka-Laylee has mistakes similar to Banjo-Tooie though they aren't quite as bad. The levels are fine on their own but once players can embiggen them it becomes entirely too much to process. More and smaller would have been better. Also, Banjo-Kazooie used musical notes much like the Mario games use coins: to lead players through the level. Neither Banjo-Tooie nor Yooka-Laylee does it like this or as well as the original Banjo-Kazooie.
I like that Banjo Tooie was more then other 3d platformers at that time - too many other platformers & games had separated individual worlds for my taste.
As the other designer of Banjo-Tooie, I salute anyone that persevered to finish it. It was always intended to be more of an adventure game than a platform game (hence everything being interconnected), thanks in part to Ocarina of Time, which influenced us a lot. Grunty Industries was the first level I ever designed and it was an exercise in proving myself (though it was refined and approved by Gregg). What made sense on paper in the literal form of a map was much more difficult to navigate in-game and in-head. I'd like to say 20+ years of hindsight have highlighted how over-complicated and user-unfriendly Banjo-Tooie is at time but the truth is we knew almost immediately, before the game launched, but by then it was too late to do much about it, which leads me to: FUN FACT: the warp pads were added right at the end to aid navigation after all the other paths and connections were designed. Thanks to GMTK for this great analysis and to everyone else for playing.
Lovely insight, thanks for sharing!
I'm curious, was Grunty Industries intended to be the final main level at any point? It makes more sense in terms of difficulty, complexity and aesthetic as the final challenge than Cloud Cuckooland does.
@@manjackson2772 I do know Cauldron Keep was supposed to be a full level. About half the illustrated maps detailing their ideas have been floating around online. It looked incredible, like storming a castle.
if it's any consolation I love grunty industries lol
@@rickyricardo9710 There are a few hardcore players that seem to love it, thank you.
Despite some of their ambitions not fully coming to fruition, it's absolutely mindblowing that all of this was done on an N64. Wizards, those lads are
Honestly, banjo kazooie, tooie, DK64 and conkers bad furday are some of the most insane games on that console. Rare were absolute masters of their craft.
also goldeneye and perfect dark were awesome.@@benamisai-kham5892
sucks nintendo did them so dirty
@@TheDarkKRoo what did they do to them? Not buying them?
Speaking of wizardry, I still wonder what the world would be like if Nintendo's hardware plans didn't quash the Stop n' Swop functionality
I always loved how Banjo-Kazooie had a sort of "swimming difficulty curve", introducing more and more perilous water for each level. (Basically every level has at least one underwater section). You go from the tiny river in Mumbo's Mountain to the beach with a shark-imposed time limit in Treasure Trove Cove before you get an actual water level where oxygen is a factor, and later on you get polluted and chilly water with special effects.
Shark in TTC was my ultimate fear as a kid I HATED falling in that water
That is a *weird* thing to notice but you're not wrong.
@@lilflossin14shark plus unagi from sm64
I always thought it was weird that almost all the water in B-K was dangerous in some way, like the developer had a fear of swimming
I never even thought about this! Don't forget the small pool in Spiral Mountain where you collect a honeycomb piece - you're encouraged to explore the water from the very beginning of the game.
The fact that Banjo-Tooie shipped with all of these new worlds, their interconnections, and new moves in two years with virtually no bugs that you would ever encounter on a casual playthrough is a monumental achievement. It is well-deserving of the video on this channel dedicated to its legacy, even if not everything said was positive. I still find it a total masterpiece.
DK64 a year earlier was also massive and seemingly bug free. Rare truly were the best in the business at 3D platformers.
It's what I call a perfect sequel. Even if the Stop N Swop was extreme waste of time solving I still call it one of the best jump platform games ever made.
Tooie is an absolute technical masterpiece. While not always, it often felt on-scale with DK64, with more colour and liveliness, and no Expansion Pak needed!
@@cattysplatYou could clip through geometry extremely easily when slowdown was present, which was really easy to cause
I don't care what anyone says, I liked Banjo-Tooie a lot. I loved the interconnected world. It felt like a real place and that was just so cool to me.
i wish we had a game that’s world felt as real and interconnected as Banjo Tooie but with levels you could complete in one go 😢 especially if it were a game like Super Mario Sunshine but no kicking out of the level after a Shine/you could travel between levels on the fly instead of having to return to the hub all the time
@@zgiffish We almost get that with Odyssey! Though sadly the interconnected nature comes down to getting to a disconnected area of a world through a painting, oftentimes in only a one-way manner :(
yup pretty much i have the same experience, while i agree that TODAY is more fun to go back to Kazooie since it is easier to 100% complete due to the way it is designed, Tooie is still overall better to me, when i was a kid it was more fun to discover stuff in there because you had to explore, also it had better minigames and bosses, the big gameplay difference between the two is that Kazooie is actually a platformer while Tooie is more an adventure game.
Yes, me and my sister had a lot of fun growing up with this world. We designed menus like Jolly Roger’s and recreated the Tower of Tragedy quiz cards! 👏🏼
I like tooie more personally.
The interconnectivity of everything is what made me love this game.
I was a kid when this released so I had nothing but time, and time I definitely took.
This is one of my favorite adventure/platformer games I've ever played
This. I spent like literally a whole month of non stop playing Donkey Kong 64 backtracking to change characters for bananas to 100% the game and enjoyed the grind. Today I would not even attempt this without the character swap hack on an emulator.
Yup. I loved Kazooie and Tooie equally as a kid so it was funny to see all the hate for Tooie in recent years. But now with a job and my ever dwindling social time and even less game time I don’t think I could stomach Tooie.
19:32 Unintuitively, the opposite can also happen, where you get a new ability and forget about an old one. In Ori 1, I've seen quite a few people completely forget that Ori can drop through soft platforms (by pressing Down+Jump) after they get the Stomp ability (which requires pressing Down while airborne).
or even in Banjo-Tooie. The Cactus of Strength jiggy in Witchyworld require you to use both stomp abilities(+ a grenade egg) to get it. Some people might think the drill ability completely overwrite the basic stomp and never even try that.
I find this comment hilarious because I did exactly that just two days ago! I'm playing through Ori 1 for the first time, and it took me a while to progress through a part where Kuro is looking for me because I needed to drop down through a bridge in order to hide behind something. I tried just running across the bridge, then I tried stomping the bridge in different spots maybe three times before I remembered I could just drop through it!
@@ChoseLa77 It took me a while to figure you should regular stomp goby since the drill felt so right.
@@ChoseLa77 This is the biggest issue with Tooie in my book. The puzzle solutions seem so contrived and unintuitive when you have so many abilities.
@@renatoramos8834poor Gobi ):
Personally I love the complexity of the puzzles in Banjo Tooie, it's easily one of my favourite games.
As a kid, not having guides or anything like that, I loved just picking apart the game, popping it open just to explore and find things and stumble into stuff. It really felt like an endless font of things to discover and pick apart. I also remember being really scared of the dinosaur stomping ground in Terrydactyland! Walking in there and just hearing the SILENCE and not knowing what was happening was scary back then!
@@elizabethhicks4181 sadomasochist. no guides for banjo kazooie. you women sure like making things difficult for yourselves.
having studied these levels a lot for my own development, i really appreciate seeing you identify concepts like "zones" and "central landmarks" in Banjo-Kazooie's levels - they're so important for navigation and memorable design!
Devs really looked at the Disneyland / Disney World model of world design back then, Rare themselves even admitted it. I'm sure it's still relevant to design today. Even this vid's use of the word "weenies" to describe big central landmarks is the same term used to describe Sleeping Beauty's Castle, the Matterhorn, Space Mountain, etc
@@chompythebeast i hadn't considered that but it makes total sense - amusement parks are designed to lead people to every part of them and to be easily navigable, after all! surprisingly similar design space. thanks for sharing!
Absolutely! This was, among other things, something that I believe really held back Yooka-Laylee. I found it much more difficult to orient myself in most of the levels, and I concluded that it was a combination of a more open level design and less visually distinct landmarks. I recall there was only a level or two which had good weenies, and I liked those a lot more than the others.
@@chompythebeast amusement parks and video game levels are basically the same exact thing, sculpted immersive experiences meant to draw you in and encourage you to explore and have fun
Your own development? What?
I can absolutely see the critique you could aim at Tooie and in what ways the first game was better in terms of world design, but to my child mind at the time Banjo-Tooie was an amazing upgrade. It might have been a lot to juggle mentally, but there was also so much to explore, and most transformations were a delight. There was just a sense of wonder and inspiration from how they all connected, even if they weren't problems you consciously thought about but were just "doing stuff" to see what would work. Simply seeing something happen in a different world because you hit a button because why wouldn't you, still came with a satisfying feeling that you just discovered something neat.
Well that's always been the thing. Tooie has its faults, but for a first time playthrough a lot of it is pretty trivial to complain about. A lot of the complaints against Tooie can only fairly be raised after playing the game 2 to 3 times. I feel like while it could have done better, Tooie is still an overall better or at least equal game for a first playthrough. But there's definitely a mix between Kazooie and Tooie right there that would be just perfect (and A Hat in Time somewhat did that in some of its levels to be fair, but at a level-scale, not world-scale)
As I said in another comment, I just enjoyed being lost and confused in Tooie.
Click Clock Wood is my favorite video game level of all time. So, you know, it’s not a mistake. It’s just very much itself and commits to its idea really hard, which I love.
It's crazy how much it feels like it's own thing. Like each level got more difficult and complex up to Rusty Bucket Bay and then boom. Welcome to Alice in Wonderland.
Classic level. Emotional level
Banjo Tooie is a game that shapped probably my entire childhood. I think its the first game I played to completion, and something I spent countless hours in as a kid wandering and just hanging out in worlds. I cannot emphasize how goddamn ecstatic I am not only to see a Boss Keys on this series, but on one that focuses on Tooie specifcally, a game people in digital spaces largely lament for not holding up to its predecesor, or other 3-D platformers of that era. This is maybe the most excited ive been to see a video in my subscriptions in a long while. Thank you.
It makes me sad that Tooie isn’t as highly regarded. I’ve always felt like Tooie took everything from the first game and made it better, and then some. I have nothing but praise for it.
@@ScuuurbsI don't like Tooie. You are free to like it. Usually when I like something I am open-minded enough to understand why others don't.
@@Scuuurbs I also really like the changes Tooie made and it has a special place in my heart. Though I must admit that when I revisited as an adult some years ago, all the (IMO incredibly cool and worthwhile) additions mentioned in the video, it did make it much less accessible. I don't have time anymore to wonder around these worlds and if you don't play for a while you have no clue where to go. That said, as a child we did have that time and it was awesome
@@ling8956The quality of a game is usually its ability to attract a wide variety of customers. The more a product alienates people, the more liking it puts you as the odd one out, the worse said game is.
I am not a fan of Zelda games, but I can understand why it appeals too such a large group. Something about Banjo Tooie alienated more gamers than Kazooie did.
I played both as a kid and liked Tooie better than the first one. I think people disregard it just because they compare it to the original, but I've alwas seen it as having two different objectives and two different vibes, like Kazooie is more focused on objectives and execution, while Tooie asks you to just explore and tackle challenges just as you encounter them with the abilities available to you.
If you ask me to finish Tooie in a week and then write a review I would completely hate it, but I still have so much fun playing it just for the fun of exploring and finding weird and fun things to do in the massive world it has.
Let's go! What a delightful surprise to have a Boss Keys for this series.
Perfect pfp. I still rock the unlockable Banjo-Kazooie gamer pic you got from the 360 version to this day. It's a tiny little low res PNG square floating in the middle of the modern Xbox's circular pfp frame, and I love it lol
World game design is simply mind-blowing! The way game developers create entire universes and immerse us in breathtaking landscapes and stories is truly an art form. It's not just about the graphics and gameplay, it's about crafting a whole new world with its own rules and logic.
The beauty of human imagination & ingenuity!
@@lep1skiLol I see what you mean. Maybe the guy was just being descriptive and genuine. They’re totally correct.
chatgpt comment
One additional system change in Tooie that I just want to highlight for being very smartly handled IMO is the change to the note system. In Kazooie, the levels were small enough that notes could be individually dotted around the level as a breadcrumb trail. With the levels in Tooie becoming bigger, the developers could have easily decided to stuff the levels with more notes, but instead they went the opposite route, compressing the individual notes into stacks and placing them around points of interest, allowing the player to focus on the expanded objectives without worrying about missing a single note somewhere. To see an example of this in action, take a look at Yooka-Laylee, which did stuff individual low tier collectibles into levels the size of Tooie's.
I think the biggest problem with the way Tooie, and by extension YL, handled it compared to Kazooie is that you only get the breadcrumbs once. Kazooie you always follow the same path to get somewhere and because the notes retun it is in fact identical, but in the other games you lose that added sense of direction. Even something simple like having "ghost" notes/quills after exiting the level and returning would have helped.
I guess they learned from DK64 what happens when you just dot the levels in a billion bananas
Yooka-Laylee's issue with the quills is that they're not PLACED like a breadcrumb trail to lead you through the level, often they're placed on random geometry and there's a few nebulously hidden ones that are practically impossible to find without the item detector.
I'm also still salty with Psychonauts 2 for some of its figment placements, like how Bob's Bottles has figments on a one-way slide segment, behind a fridge portal, and THE BROWN COCONUTS THAT COMPLETELY BLEND INTO THE TREES THEY'RE PLACED ON.
@GameDevYal Yeah, the fact that Yooka-Laylee goes out of its way to hide a few of the quills (see: the lone quill on the hidden cliffside path behind the rock wall on the first level) instead of consistently using them for path signalling like Kazooie does is definitely big contributing factor, in addition to the larger level size just naturally spacing the quills out more than Kazooie's notes.
@@GameDevYal WTF? Did they do the same thing with the figments they did in the FIRST game? (I haven't had a chance to play the sequel yet) I'd say Psychonauts is the absolute worst game as far as collecting everything goes since the figments are so hard to see and some are put in the most out of place areas possible (I'm looking at you Waterlooworld) and are only salvaged by all of them being numbered so you can look up which ones you're missing and find them.
I’ve always loved the level design of Banjo-Tooie. Having a lot of levels interconnected is such a neat idea.
As divisive as Click Clock Wood can be, I've always loved how it handles the Witch Switch Jiggy.
You hit the Witch Switch in Winter, the final season, but in order to get the Jiggy from it, you need the Bee transformation, which you can only get in the first season, Spring.
So assuming you're playing all 4 seasons in order, you see the wood grow quieter over the year, only to see it burst into life again during your final visit in Spring, before you leave for good. I thought it was a nice touch 🙂
I never heard that this level was supposedly divisive. I thought it was universally aclaimed as one of the best 3d platformer levels ever made
@@anima94 might be from people who try to climb the tree in any other season that isn't summer.
@@anima94 It's a really cool concept, but it's also huge and takes forever to explore. Since all worlds in Banjo-Kazooie have roughly the same amount of content, this also means it's spread pretty thin. When I played through the game in 2018 with my partner at the time, she remarked that Click Click Wood was "boring".
Everything you pointed out made me realize why BK didnt overwhelm me when trying to fit everything about a level into my head. I tend to get panicky due to fear of missing something or forgetting a path because it becomes too many, but BK really managed to pack its levels really nicely
boss keys is easily my fav series of yours, im so glad you're finally doing banjo
I honestly prefer Tooie. I absolutely love the complexity and interconnectivity between the worlds. I'm also a weirdo who loves backtracking and it feels so satisfying to come back to finally finish certain jiggies.
My issue with Tooie wasn't with backtracking nor interconnectivity per se. It was that the game did not provide the player with the _tools_ to understand the network system.
I remember collecting 9/10 jiggies in one stage, being able to _see_ the tenth jiggie behind an impassable window, and thereby scouring every corner of the stage looking for a way to access it, and of course never finding it. Later I would learn that the jiggie grotto could only be accessed by some random door three stages away. It was essentially a grotto belonging to that later stage, whose collectables were tracked on the previous stage's totals.
It gave the game a sense of randomness rather than exploration or puzzle solving. Combine that with the massive level design, and the absolute pump of difficulty like the Canary Mary jiggies, and they had a recipe for many players quitting before reaching 100%. A lot of us felt quite bitter about it.
@@Roezaea I love the massive level design and difficulty (although I don't like some particular jiggies like canary Mary). The grottos leading back to certain jiggies are something I actually enjoy because it makes the world feel more tied together. In addition, I completely disagree about not providing the tools to understand the networking system because the game introduces this concept very early on with Dilberta, thereby telling you that you might have to go to other stages to unlock certain jiggies. Maybe I could understand it if you get stuck on the first stage with the bill drill jiggy, but after Dilberta's mission, you should definitely be aware that later stages may lead to the jiggies of earlier stages.
@@aidansilli4257yes they tell you other levels might lead to jiggies, but the creator of this video gives a good example of how in Metroid they would use a tool to show when something was complete or when you needed to back track - the commenter you replied to, the author, and many others share a similar sentiment that there could have been a better way to implement this aspect of the game.
@@Roezaea I understand visual presentation is key to get some of those jiggles, but not everything has to be hand holding and You really need to figure out by yourself to get that reward in order to obtain 100%
One thing that I don't think you mentioned that ties into how Banjo-Tooie seems connected is how the beginning area of the game in the sequel is the same as it is in the original. You can still enter the carving of Grunty's face on the mountain, even if the path to the worlds in the original game is blocked. The sequel takes place by traveling in a different direction from the start of Spiral Mountain. I don't think a game had ever done that before and I thought it was so cool.
Though I guess Zelda 2 does a version of that but it's a bit more of a stretch.
Majora's Mask... sorta did that? Though the opening area doesn't look like the lost woods, even though it's supposed to be a part of that. But it came out about a month before Banjo Tooie, and Ocarina of Time also came out the same year as Banjo Kazooie, the parallels there are pretty cool
@@MaxonerousX We're also forgetting that the gold and silver versions of Pokemon hit American shores about a month before this game, which did something similar (and better) by connecting Kanto and Johto. But I guess my point was that this is the first time I encountered it during a time where it was still pretty unheard of.
You could also assert that the same company tried to make the player connect the world within their head-canon with Donkey Kong Country 2, but most kids don't have the skills to observe such a thing.
Despite all the frustrations this is still my all time favorite pair of games. I think I’ve finally decided that I like the first one better but it took me a solid decade to make up my mind.
Especially in the case of tooie these are examples of games that really are best played with some sort of map. At the time I had Nintendo power magazine and I remember keeping the edition with the tooie maps into my 20’s. And I think because I played the games with a map on my lap I avoided much of the frustration you describe.
Never apologize for videos like this Mark! I absolutely love your longer videos such as this, Commanding Shepard, and your three part Dead Space analysis. In fact, I’d love to see more like this and Dead Space where you explore how a game series has changed between entries.
While some aspects of games don’t need too much time to explore, it’s always great when you can go in-depth on a particular game or mechanic to really see how all the different aspects fit together.
Always thought the perfect game for a Threeie would be a nice blend of Kazooie and Tooie, I still hope we see that one day. Great video :)
I would love to see you cover Nuts 'n' Bolts at some point. As divisive as it was for fans of the previous games, I ended up absolutely loving it in the long run. There is truly astounding physics work that went into it when it comes to vehicle handling and how different pieces, weight distribution, and wheel/wing number and spacing affect the quality of your ride.
Playing Tears of the Kingdom really had me aching for that simple garage system that N&B had. There's a lot of physics in that game, but you have so little control. I had a ton of fun just building junk vehicles and fiddling with minute differences in design, but now i can only shift things manually, only save like 8 designs, and have no control over what turns on. Made me nostalgic for N&B, really
My main problem was that it felt like the missions were either "do you have this part?" puzzles or annoying races. I recall few missions where I felt like I got to make my own fun the way I do in Tears of the Kingdom, but I remember enjoying hours and hours just goofing off with my brother in the practice area, building and battling our vehicles. It be interesting to try N&B after Tears. hard not to compare Nintendo adventures pivoting to vehicles out of nowhere, one fails and one succeeds
This is perhaps an odd compliment, but your videos are a masterclass in how to logically group concepts. As a software engineer, a lot of my time is spent trying to find ways to abstract commonalities in architecture, and I am continually impressed by how well you are able to group concepts together. Thanks for producing such amazing content!
Not sure he really has to be so literally in his explanation of every single connection to a regular viewer. Sounds like he's reading a list at times.
As a kid, my parents got me Banjo Toole without ever having played Banjo Kazooie first. I think as confusing as the game technically is, I loved that it felt so vast that I wasn't getting everything right on my first pass, that I had to continue to explore and learn and see what was working and what didn't. Frankly, I don't think I even finished it as a kid, but I always enjoyed just moving around and playing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fantastic video! I feel like it is such a shame we didn't get another Banjo game with the time and resources to tweak the ideas in Banjo-Tooie with smarter level design. While yes we have Mario Odyssey taking on some of the best ideas from Banjo-Kazooie, its a really forgotten genre now.
In recent years the 3D platformer genre has actually saw a little comeback with other games such as Yooka-Laylee, A Hat in Time, Super Lucky's Tale, the Crash and Spyro remakes, Crash 4, Sonic Frontiers, etc. Not all of these are open exploration based, but still, the situation is better than like 10 years ago.
It certainly is, I wish there were more that hit the heights however. Was disappointed in Yooka-Laylee, but did enjoy A Hat in Time for sure.@@19Szabolcs91
Donkey Kong 64 was basically Banjo Kazooie 1½, being released between the first and the second game, and playing similarly.
@@19Szabolcs91 Also Jak and Daxter. I wish that got a crash/spyro style remake
What I remember most from Tooie is how much I laughed! Seriously the dynamic between Banjo, Kazooie and everyone else is amazing!
Walking through Bottles family home while Banjo doesn't want to tell them and Kazooie is making digging and burying jokes: Savage!! 🤣🤣😂
And the interconnected worlds made me so happy, it all felt like one giant adventure!
Heck yeah! When I was a kid I was very into all the extra complexity of Tooie, but you're right that the levels are just a lot harder to navigate in general. Thanks for this look back!
I feel so lonely in how much I adore Banjo Tooie. While I had tried Kazooie once at a cousin's house, I was actually given Banjo-Tooie as a gift first. And that game absolutely won me over. When I played Kazooie properly later, while I appreciated it, Banjo Tooie was still so much more satisfying. I feel like Banjo Tooie was the perfect platformer. I wish there were more games like Tooie
I'm sure playing Tooie for the first time as an adult would be infuriating, but playing it as a _kid?_ Man, this game was everything to me. I had all the time in the world to get lost, explore, transform, swap characters, explore some more, and then stumble upon the answer to a riddle. Compared to so many other colorful collect-a-thons on the platform, young me _adored_ the enormous world. It made me feel really smart at times, and discovering new connected paths blew my mind.
Again, I had the disposable time of a child in the early-2000s. And I think it's kinda great that we had games like that back when we were able to appreciate them instead of just grow frustrated at them through the lens of busy adults.
I never would've expected a Boss Keys episode on Banjo Kazooie. What a treat
Banjo-Kazooie is one of the best games ever made. Its sequel not far behind.
Its sequel is definitely also one of the games ever made.
I agree that Kazooie is honestly one of the Greatest games ever made. Right behind Oot, botw, metroid prime and GTA, but is Tooie worth trying? I've tried getting into it, getting to grunty industries, but i just give up because I feel like the magic is missing. It's a bit too dark and lacks that magic that BK had. But I feel like I should try again. Any input?
@@nicksharma8238 hey man. Ofcourse Tooie is also cool and worth playing but its not a legendary masterpiece like kazooie.
Did you play majoras mask?
@CoNteMpTone yes. Majora's is an artpiece. Very surreal and dreamlike. Like a psychadelic almost. Think I completed in back in 2012 or something
@@nicksharma8238 all right just making sure^^
Tooie is definitely not on that level but its not a bad game. Its still really good, just more along the 8/10 mark than the 10/10+ mark.
This alongside the music analysis from Official Music Tracks is a blessing for us Banjo fans
Thanks SO MUCH for taking time to explain the previous game. I think it's so useful for young people like me who wasn't even born in those years and couldn't play the "old gems". Many videos took it for granted and it's not so pleasant. So, again, Thank you! I love your work and care you put in these videos.
These games were literally some of the first open worlds. They paved the way for the games we have today. Seriously back then most games were very short linear things that could be finished in a few hours.
I made a video on this topic a while back (deliberately commenting with my regular account + not linking to avoid being a schill), so it makes me happy to see more people acknowledge this! The world design in BT absolutely astounded me as a kid.
Excited to learn more about this gem. Thank you for your tireless work, Mark! 😄
You are so thorough, clear, and not-overwhelming. Love all your videos, especially Boss Keys.
Unraveling world connectivity is always such a blast to see! i'd love to see videos covering the resident evil games as I feel that a number of their games can often feel like a zelda dungeon with how you solve puzzles and explore the world. the village in RE8 in particuar always suprised me in that way
RE games are fantastic at this. Well maybe not 3, but that was more of an action game anyway.
One of my favorite series is the gate of memories series. There's 2 games in the series, with a third announced last month. Exploration is a cornerstone of the first game anima gate of memories, whereas in its sequel anima gate of memories the nameless chronicles, exploration takes a back seat to the story. A world design video on the two anima gate of memories games would be really cool as they both have a different take on world design. I've been trying to get a larger youtube channel to do a video on this series and its been a pain for years at this point. Thanks!
"Mark will almost definitely not see this, but let's all just take a moment to appreciate how much effort he puts into these videos. Truly, thank you, Mark.
Abysmal grammar.
@@jarlwhiterun7478 Yes, a comma and a capital letter, definitely worth a comment. I am, in fact, a professional author who once also sought to correct everyone in comment sections. One day, I realized that the point of language is communication and understanding between individuals, not to correct each other. It is the content and the meaning of the words that matter. Also, if you want to be objectively correct, "Abysmal grammar" is not even a complete sentence.
This is one of my favourite videos you’ve done and it got me right in the nostalgia, BK was the first game I ever played on my N64. Thanks Mark!
Validating all the feelings and thoughts I had about this game since I played as a kid. Loved your analysis of these 2 amazing games!
Boss keys! Man, it's been too long. This is the series that got me into GMTK.
Glad to see more of these episodes! I'd still love to see a breakdown of something like classic Doom games which are touted as feeling nonlinear compared to contemporary FPS games including the newer Doom games: how non-linear are they really? How do they make it feel non-linear? Stuff like that.
Banjo Kazooie is my favorite game to the point that I go watch reactions to the banjo smash bros reveal when I'm feeling down in the dumps. I wasn't expecting to see it show up in GMTK, but I'm absolutely ecstatic that it has! Thanks for all the hard work and never feel bad about any video you put out. You could do a 12 video long deep dive on Grabbed by the Ghoulies and I'd watch the whole thing. (Well, most of it anyway.) Much love!
7:39 Love how the descending melody part of the song is playing while Banjo is falling.
both of the n64 games speak to me on a deep nostalgic level, looking forward to watching this one
They legitimately don't make games like this anymore.
I get that Click Clock Wood can be frustrating, but it is the final world. It's always been my favorite by a long shot. The main issue is that notes don't save in the N64 version. Without that, I think it's fair to have actually challenging vertical platforming (without bottomless pits, too!)
Click Clock Wood is my favorite too. I loved the way the changing seasons affected the world when I first played that level.
Notes not saving in the N64 version was actually one of the major flaws of the game. I never understood why they made it like that. I mean I get it - they are like coins in SM64. But still their mechanic is different enough that saving them would have been very useful.
Also requirements for beating the game were really high in B-K. 810 out of 900 notes and I think 94 of 100 jiggies for the final boss door. 98 if you want to upgrade your health. Those are numbers you won't see in a game nowadays.
I love this series of videos you've done over the last several years on the world and dungeon designs of various games!
Discovering the interconnectivity of Tooie's levels gave my dumb 12-year-old brain my first "elevator back to Firelink Shrine" moment.
Glad to see this video. I haven't played Banjo-Tooie in over 20 years (come on Nintendo, put it on Nintendo Switch Online already), but it absolutely blew me away as a teenager, precisely because it broke so far from the mold of the original and Mario 64. The interconnected levels is an amazing feature that I'd love to see more of (although I suspect this has been partially supplanted by open world games). I do suspect that I've been looking at this game with rose-colored glasses though, and that if I ever do replay it, I'll be much more aware of its flaws like I was with Donkey Kong 64.
Also, Canary Mary can go to hell.
I'm happy to see you finally cover Banjo Tooie, it's one of my favorite games ever. Banjo Tooie is great too, but the sequel is like 10 times better, improving and expanding on everything great about the first game. I'm definitely a person that really likes the increased complexity of Banjo Tooie (and Click Clock Wood was my favorite level in Banjo Kazooie). The interconnectivity and backtracking were awesome, making each level feel like it contained so much and like there were secrets everywhere. The fact that you started the game with all the abilities of Banjo Tooie as a baseline, and then earned a bunch more throughout the game. How the characters from Banjo Tooie carried over, but also new characters to fill their roles were also included (so Mumbo still exists, but this time you play as Mumbo, and Humba Wumba is inroduced to take Mumbo's old role). The awesome music and how it seamlessly changes instrumentation and tone as you move from zone to zone to adapt to that zone's atmosphere. Plus, all the multiplayer minigames that were added. It's all great. The only thing that could get kind of annoying is the dialogue sounds, which also existed in Banjo Kazooie.
I do remember getting stuck on Grunty Industries a lot though. I thought the level was really cool, but also confusing. Also that room on the ice side of Hailfire Peaks that only has a jiggy looks like it has an ice window that could be destroyed with a fire egg, but I could be wrong.
GMT: "And also maybe don't change the entire thing to now be about building vehicles. That's also good advice."
Zelda TotK: Hold my beer.
Those who hate on Banjo Kazooie don't appreciate the challenge of a beautiful retro game. It is easy enough to complete when we assume the first 6 levels are a given if you're even slightly competent at collectathons. And then....
Mad Monster Mansion tests your proficiency against enemies.
Rusty Bucket Bay tests your proficiency against environmental hazards.
Click Clock Wood tests your concentration and patience.
I've done 100% on a few occasions but I could definitely coach someone with the right attitude to the final boss by setting out minimum targets for the final three levels, and how to hit them! Great video!
Just looking at Banjo-Kazooie and hearing its fun music puts a smile on my face! Love that game so much ❤ I have to cook dinner now, but I'm really looking forward to watch the rest of this video!
Underrated series, honestly both Kazooie and Tooie are platformer masterpieces that have been forgotten by the younger generation.
Doesn't help that Microsoft refuses to do anything with the IP. Not even a remake like Crash/Spyro.
@@Paul-to1nb micro$oft only cares about money and since nuts and bolts didnt make tens of millions they shelved it.
They are literally buying studios to create a monopoly instead of using their existing franchises.
"Maybe don't change the entire thing to be about building vehicles." **Tears of the Kingdom sweats nervously**
31:30 That was BECAUSE OF YOU? What a small world we live in! I'm a huge Kameo & Banjo fan so it was such a pleasant surprise to see a Banjo Easter Egg in Kameo. I had no idea it was because of a contest. Thank you for bringing such a cool skin to Pummel Weed
Always love valuable content for my favorite childhood game! Thank you
Always a great time when Boss Keys is on the scene. Love the series and this game.
7:38 i still can't get over how well you timed the music, doing the chromatic fall into the main melody, with the footage and your voiceover, that's hilarious
I'm that odd breed who's more drawn to Tooie than Kazooie. For all the fair criticisms presented here, I think you also did a great job of articulating why I love it so much.
I'm so damn happy boss keys is back.
Kazooie is a game that has damn near infinite charm to me. It is one of only a handful of games that I would reasonably call perfect. Tooie never really hit the same highs for me but it's still a game that I enjoy quite a bit (except Grunty Industries, that level can die in a fire. It's not even a complexity thing, I adore the Water Temple. It's just purely tedious. It is everything that people whine about DK64 but worse). To me Kazooie vs Tooie has always seemed like an absolute showcase of the idea that less is more.
Banjo Kazooie was one of my favorite games growing up. So glad you covered it. Brought back some good memories!
WOW. Thank you so much, Mark. One of my low-key favorite YT channels just up and does a deep dive on my two absolute favorite video games of all time. These are core memory games for me.
I personally always felt that the complexity and fleshing out in Tooie was welcome-but I was also eight years old, and found as much pleasure in wasting time in the world and pretending that Banjo and Kazooie had full lives as I did in actually completing the objectives of the game. Thank you for honoring my favorite video game franchise of all time with your analysis 🙏🏼
Banjo Kazooie is amazing. It has a style of humour that is rare to find nowadays.
30:47
Tears of the Kingdom: "I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that"
Banjo Tooie is something I appreciate the challenge to do. It’s very satisfying to complete, but Banjo Kazooie is certainly easier to revisit. Banjo Tooie is one of my favorite games of all time.
WHOA! Never even dreamed that you'd cover this game, Mark. One of my absolute favourites.
I think there is a way to make a good balance between Banjo-Kazooie's more compact worlds, and Banjo-Tooie's connected worlds. With each one having it's own landmark, or weenies as you call them, in the center. With it being possible to affect future or previous levels that you have visited.
Banjo Kazooie and banjo tooie to me are both fantastic 3D platformers, thank you Mark Brown for making a video on two of my favourite childhood games, also i hope we meet again sometime :)
Whenever I reflect on Banjo Tooie I always wish I could shrink each level to about .75x its normal size because I really think it'd do wonders for the pacing. Backtracking feels so frustrating because even with warp pads and short cuts and Chuffy it takes forever to get back and forth where you need to go. I truly wouldn't mind most of the backtracking if I felt like I could get where I needed to go with the ease that I can in a Super Metroid or a Hollow Knight.
Also just want to say thank you for Boss Keys, it's a fantastic series and one of my all time favorites on CZcams.
What I really wanted with Tooie's interconnectivity was a long chain of fetch quests à la the Biggoron's Sword sequence.
Thanks for this awesome video today! I love the banjo games and agree with you that the first one is probably better because of its simplicity.
I remember the last time I played Tooie that I sometimes were surprised to really have everything on a level because so much happens simply while playing. So I think it gets better everytime you play it :D
Man I really missed your longer videos. I love the shorter ones too but I always preferred the long analysis ones. So good to see it return.
Love to see another episode of Boss Keys! Glad you're letting yourself be creative with the concept, thanks!
Excellent analysis of these two gems, you really dug into how these two games feel so unique in their own way, both from each other and from other platformers of the era. I personally adore Tooie for its interconnected worlds and sense of scale, but I also understand why many prefer the straightforward, tighter balance of the first game.
A lot of the points made about Banjo Tooie being unintuitive are the precise reason why I favor it over the first.
This is just a disagreement in game purpose, of course. I love the videos and look forward to the next!
it is as if challenge and difficulty are not part of "good design" anymore. that is a bummer
The Spyro series on ps1 has exceptional level design... hits all the notes and suggestions in this video other than interconnected worlds
Funny seeing you talk about kameo randomly at the end, I was thinking throughout the whole video how much I loved that game as well as tooie and wanted to re visit it
BOSS KEYS KEYS GO
I’d love to see you tackle Nier Automata’s level design and changing environments! It’s a motif I’d love to see more in single player games, as the story changes the world does as well
He talked briefly about it in a patreon vid right after release.
Can't believe one of my favorite channels made a video about one of my favorite games ! Thank you !
*I believe you need the turbo trainers to get the last jiggy as the crocodile in Bubblegloop Swamp as well, which requires backtracking*
You technically don't, but its so much easier with them. (Strategy to not need the trainers is to obsessively eat everything your opponent is about to)
Haha 20 years later and I'm still learning new things about BK. Cheers.@@astralaegis6283
Did you use AI for the thumbnail?
Yeah, it's upscaled using AI. Unfortunately N64-era artwork isn't high enough resolution for today's needs!
I absolutely adore Kazooie and Tooie despite how massively different they are. Tooie felt absolutely gigantic when it came out, and even now the levels feel huge - almost too big. Edit: Wow, an Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet reference? My God!
Tooie definitely needed a Zelda-style map showing where you've been, where you came from, and where there are still items left.
Another huge thing that Zelda gets right but many games don't: showing you what you just did and _where_ . The camera switches to show a door unlocking, then glides back to you so you can tell where that was. In lots of games, either it doesn't show the door at all, or it just cuts right back leaving you wondering where that door is.
The minimap showing which door you entered from is another extremely helpful detail that not enough games have.
Banjo-Kazooie is my favourite game, I could play it all day but I have never finished Banjo-Tooie purely due to reasons mentioned in this video. The concise level design of the original is incredibly satisfying and being able to entirely check off a level before moving on serves a compulsive urge in my brain. I worked out pretty quickly in the first level of Banjo-Tooie what the new direction was and decided to quit there. Also, I liked Kameo, so thank you for service.
it is sad that people are clamoring for lower difficulty and challenge in gaming hiding behind "good design". Getting confused is a good thing
what's the point in having a high degree of challenge if it's not fun? challenge, like all elements of game design, is there to contribute to the puppet show. getting confused is only a good thing if it's enjoyable.
"What happens in Mad Monster Mansion stays in Mad Monster Mansion." - Mark Brown, 2023
I rarely see my favorite game critiqued so well! This is really thoughtful and genourous examination. Thanks you for making it.
Boss Keys is my absolutely favorite series you do. I hope you keep doing entries as I re-watch them all for the 5th time lol
The more criticism I hear about Banjo-Tooie, the more I'm thankful I had the player's guide as a kid which spelled everything out and just let me get to the fun. Come to think of it, I had the guide for DK64 too. When you're a kid, you have lower standards for design and more time, and there was SO MUCH in those games. I just loved being in those worlds, and it was back when I only got a couple new games a year.
Also, fun fact: the washing machine form was a joke in B-K. There was a very slight chance of Mumbo transforming you into it by accident, after which he would apologize and put you back. But there was also a cheat to transform and remain in that form, and he would question you for why you would even want that.
29:50
“Overwhelming”
As someone who didn’t play the Banjo games until I was a young adult, that is the exact word I’d use to describe my experience with Tooie. I know a lot of people love that game, and more power to them, but I just couldn’t enjoy it as much as I would have hoped.
Subscribed just on the fact that you're putting the spotlight on Banjo-Tooie. Super underrated game imo, and deserves more discussion videos around it.
Man, I just finished my annual playthrough of both games last night, and now THIS drops in my feed? You always do amazing work but clearly you made this one just for me!