Angel Platforms and Invincibility: The Hidden Comeback Mechanic in Smash Bros
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- #tournament #smashbros #gamedesign
People really don't think about invincible mix-ups. But they should. Turns out they're pretty good in Smash Bros. Let's talk about how they're used, and how they could be tweaked maybe.
(00:00): Introduction
(00:50): What is the Angel Platform?
(02:48): Smash Summit 10 Angel Platform Interactions
(06:34): Analysis
(09:24): Counter Arguments
(11:07): Potential Solutions
(14:15): Conclusion
Smash Summit 10 Angel Platform Data: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Video Editing by Z: / zactrone
Script Editing by Apollo Ali: / rbdapolloali
Play P+: projectplusgame.com/
Support me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/arjunebug?fan...
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Follow my Twitterz: / arjunebug
Music:
Moonlight Sonata - Beethoven or something
Break the Targets - Super Smash Bros Melee
Trophy - Super Smash Bros Melee
Credits - Super Smash Bros Brawl - Hry
my favorite method of dealing with invincibility is attacking them anyways for psychic damage
this is the diddy kong way
I will now stomp falcon punch everyone i fight while they still have respawn invincibility
Raw rest the invincible player
Slap City has a duration similar to PM/P+, but the moment you put out any attack, grab or special, you lose invulnerability.
Its a pretty simple solution that works pretty damn well, imo.
I like this method a good amount!
Edit: also fun fact, it is an example of conditional Invincibility! Which I covered
the besttt
Bruh tell me why I can never fucking find matches on quick play when slap city is objectively a better competitive game like FUCK
Was gonna say this, that's a good way to do it!
Brawlhalla does this too, where any attack or weapon pickup will cause you to lose your invincibility. I like this solution a lot, because there's a mindgame about whether you should attack your invincible opponent in a given situation.
Brawlhalla has a lot of issues for a platform fighter, but it probably has one of the better respawn experiences in the genre for both players because there are a lot of choices both players can make.
Turns out invincible characters are really good!
I have my doubts, needs more testing
I've seen you somewhere but I can't remember from where
In a way, ledgedashing might be considered a comeback mechanic because it help you "come back" onto the stage
, it's a bug/oversight cased by wavedash which isn't intended , so not a mechanic
@@CinnamonOwO booooooooooooooo
The best type of comeback mechanic
@@CinnamonOwO A mechanic doesn't have to be intended to be a mechanic lmao.
Also not a bug or glitch it's an exploit of many intended mechanics working as intended
@@CinnamonOwO the invincibility you get from ledge isn't a glitch/exploit though, only the wavedash.
So ledge stalling is a comeback mechanic
worth noting I think that it's not *only* a comeback mechanic, it also helps players who have a stock lead maintain that lead when they respawn, so in a way it's also a snowballing mechanic, or maybe just neither?
good video! I am also a fan of the slap city method of taking invince away once you do an attack/grab/special. It gives you an invincible mixup, but only one, so its more worth trying to bait something instead of just waiting out the s.
ive always seen it as an oppression mechanic for the better player
Not exactly a balance suggestion but with your suggestion of a grounded platform, I think it'd be neat if it just reused the entrance animation (then giving the 10-20 frames of invincibility once actionable)
oooo I like that
Would love to see a proof of concept mod
I think it might just be the best implemented comeback mechanic in a major fighting game, which says more about their quality than of the angel platform itself
The two things I can think of are tying the amount of invincibility to character speed(both how fast they are and how fast their moves are would pay a factor) and/or the invincibility ends as soon as you finish throwing out a single attack, so you get to do a single invincible move at best, so mixups you do have to be around your movement untill you commit to using it
Your 2nd suggestion is interesting because it's very similar to how Slap City handles the respawn invincibility, but in that game it ends as soon as you use an attack, rather than once the attack is finished, so you can be counter hit or whiff punished.
I'm waiting for that one guy to start complaining about it and say it's broken and shouldn't be in the game but it doesn't matter since nothing will be done about it
If you think ledge camping is bad...
@@cioplasmmajic8327 what? I mean, I don't like ledge camping, but what does that have to do with anything?
You can just get a stock ahead, damage the opponent a bit and then when you die just don't throw a single move and win by stalling with the last option :3
I think Sakurai had the idea of the Angel Platform invincibility being more defensive. Funny how we turned what's supposed to be a defensive tool to keep you from experiencing loss after loss into an offensive tool.
How about Invicibility until you hit the ground, attack, or after one second? It would let you choose a neutral position to start from, if someone tries to challenge you or start something when you hit the ground you can put them in danger with an air attack, and it prevents air stalling too much.
Yeah I believe Leffen likes 60 frames. I wouldn't mind 60 frames with possible conditions like losing invincibility after throwing out an attack!
For clarity, Junebug in all likely hood means frames, not seconds, 60 frames = 1 second
@@Bladieblah Yeah I definitely did lol, edited for clarity
The data collected is super interesting, but there's a serious lack of a control. 41% sounds like a big number of neutral wins from invincibility, but only if you assume they wouldn't have gotten an opening otherwise. If they had a 50/50 chance of winning neutral normally, then the invincibility only made a difference 20% of the time, but there really isn't a good way to measure that.
Agreed. it's very hard to say if angel plat dictated the situation 100%, and I tried to offer that as a flaw of the data
I don't think that's a very fair point. The way invincibility affects neutral is severe enough to completely change the way it plays.
If the platform skewed a 50/50 into a 66/33, that's not a 20% increase(also not 16%). It's not easy to express it clearly in some amount of increase. Especially if it is 50% chance to neutral and 50% chance for advantage to one player. The null hypothesis would be that there is no effect, which would be 0/100.
For better understanding of all the effects, one should also observe and express the chance for the player not on the platform gaining an advantage. With our one dataset it should be 66/33/0. With the event of the platform doing nothing would be a theoretical 0/100/0.
It's a pretty big impact and it certainly works for comebacks.
love the data gathered on this one, really high quality analysis as always!!
Thanks bro, we gotta get some more games in (hopefully they're less laggy next time lol)
@@arJunebugSmash LOL hell yeah super down. i need to get destroyed more by mewtwo
props to your editor these have gotten really clean! hope you keep putting these out I think you're talking about a lot of concepts that most people don't think about
Thank you! I def enjoy thinking about abstract Smash concepts :)
I was just thinking that a video essay about respawn/new rounds in fighting games could be dope. It's weird that in smash you have the advantage after you lose a stock, but in a traditional fighter you reset to neutral, and in some games like marvel you spawn in disadvantage and may even have to instantly block a 50/50 mixup. There's this weird spectrum of respawn systems and smash seemingly accidentally found its way all the way on the extreme end of that spectrum
Theory fighter has another good video going over round start in traditional fighters if you're interested.
what if invul was removed, but you could just hold left/right on the stick to choose where you respawn? so it's more like a tech chase (you can easily avoid spawn camping, but the opponent can make hype reads occasionally)
Wait this is so fun, I love it lmao
Knight Club does something kinda comparable. Rather than a respawn platform, you can fly freely for a few seconds when you first respawn, but immediately drop down if you press anything other than a directional input.
The biggest difference being that in Knight Club, you can react to the opponent's flight, rather than the side you respawn on being hidden information until you respawn.
Depending on stage, that would lead to camping the center, so as to cover the most area and place yourself in the best position to quickly reach the incoming opponent whichever side they spawn at. Further, spawning at the center with your opponent covering your position like that would also lead to unblockable meaty setups without enough invulnerable frames to at least put up shield.
Maybe if you could also hold Up to spawn on a platform on that side of the stage (or in the air if there isn't a platform... F you, FD) it would make the opponent commit to more of a read and at least let the player with the lost stock get to take some action to re-engage and establish positioning.
Could you give both players invincibility for the same duration upon one’s death? This would make melee kind of like melty blood where you are able to position yourself before the start of each round. Might add another layer of strategy.
Definitely feels like just going to a neutral start every stock is the most competitive solution, but would be hella disorienting, and also there's the problem of going for kills that would normally kill both players now become more viable weather that's good or bad is subjective, or maybe have like a timer before the neutral start, but then that slows the game down I guess. Also Rivals has messed with the amount of invincibility time over the course of it's development for whatever that's worth, probably something in a patch note somewhere about why it is what it is. Anyway great video.
Rivals of Aether
Suicidal kills kinda become less hype when it only kills the opponent. The "I don't care if I'm gonna die, I'm bringing you down" thing disapear
Another great video junebug! Thanks for the content
Man I'm glad you made a video about this.
I remember talking to a friend about this a couple years ago about how peach gets punished for taking stocks from fox, because fox can run peach off the stage and get positioning. But as a fox main he didn't want to talk about it.
I never thought about it as a comeback mechanic but yea it certainly is.
I don't like the chess solution, it looks like it resets the pace of the game to me, but I haven't played it yet so may feel different if I do. I like your solution of toning down invuln and spawning on the opposite side of the stage as the opponent. But I feel like characters with fast ground speeds will benefit from this and at worse get stage positioning. Also what if someone goes deep offstage to secure a KO and has to recover before the opponent legdeguard or can corner them at the ledge, this might not be a problem on long stages like FD, but on small stages like yoshi's I can see this coming into play. A solution I thought of is to respawn players on the ground, give both players a couple seconds of invuln, and give them a Guilty Gear style burst move that knocks the opponent back to the other side of the stage. For example a respawning zoner can burst a rushdown character if they get too close.
I feel like the chess melee style is definitely the wrong way to go. It would make rest / sd d-air / other sd combos too strong, since you wouldn’t have to worry about losing your next stock after taking theirs.
A possible control would be to prevent respawn reset until the opponent had touched the stage, and that's be pretty ez to program in.
@@arJunebugSmash yeah that would definitely work, good idea. Guess that just leaves rest being buffed, and I’m down for that!!!
Thank god you didn’t go over the other comeback mechanic
SO NOW I CAN MAKE A VIDEO ABOUT IT
lol well-played sir!
appreciate the work you put in to the statistical analysis, that must have taken a while.
nice work dude
Super good video with a very topical and fashionable title.
I hate the idea of grounded invuln. The angel platform being a platform, in the air, means that it's very easy to register when movement has started and to set your mental timer of when their invuln will end. On top of that, being in the air means characters lose access to as many options as possible: sure, angel plat Bair is annoying, but when about angel floor fox up Smash stealing your stock at 60. Or angel floor Marth grab. Needed to land from the air means losing access to some of those more powerful tools and I think that's a good thing.
As for your complaint about time... Im definitely a casual player of Melee / PM but when actually trying, keeping focus on the game takes a whole lot of mental strain, and Smash already has much less time between stocks than most traditional FGs have between rounds. Having the chance to breathe is very, very valuable in this game and I don't think it needs to go away.
I agree with both your points, but I think that Junebug meant to suggest 10-20 frames of _actionable_ invincibility. If so, the amount of time you have to catch a breath remains the same.
Making it easier to register when someone's move has started makes sense when someone has 120 frames of actional invincibility. However, how much is needed for 10-20? In addition,those options you mentioned (Fox usmash, Marth grab) are way easier to land with the current method than they would be with my suggestion, as there is still overall more time for them to land those moves. Some characters also get access to their powerful tools in the air, re: Peach and Puff, so standardizing makes sense to me.
But the goal of my suggestions wouldn't be to give them access to their powerful tools as quickly as possible, it is providing a reset to neutral. I would be very surprised if we saw Foxes and Marths utilizing the grounded plat to get openings given the constraints.
The second critique is misplaced, as I didn't suggest any changes to the 300 frames (5 seconds) of optional wait time.
i loveeee your videos. keep it up!
I really like this style of content for melee. And an invincible fox from ledge is scary enough. It seems like leffen has always been one of the best at abusing any sort of invincibility, so no surprise to see him convert off so many respawns.
Thanks for including the data that's always cool to see!
I like the idea of certain actions removing he invincibility early. It would function like Yoshi's DJ armor. He loses it the very frame that he inputs another option (attack, special, dodge).
Really well thought out and argued video. I think I like it the way it is currently because it makes holding your lead more impressive and also causes more adv/disadv states over neutral states because the invincible player is encouraged to be aggressive and then may over extend. It's definitely less competitive but the trade off is the game becomes more unique if that makes sense.
One thing I think you didn't mention is how soon after a character dies can they actually act. If they can act too soon, even from across the stage, if they're grounded, most characters could cross the stage very quickly. This might mean that going deep offstage for edgeguards is top dangerous, as the reapawned character will be able to threaten before the other character has come back to the stage. The way Falcon sometimes has to double jump wall jump up b to recover comes to mind. I say this because I think deep edgeguards are something the overwhelming majority of the community really enjoy (although I don't have data on that).
Here's an Idea I'd like to see tried out!
-Remove angel plat, player spawns above top blast zone falling with no double jump(s).
-I-frames persist until you press A/B or land.
-You may still airdoge, doing so will not remove Invincibility.
I really like the deep dive into mechanics like this. I think it's good not to be change happy but considering ways to improve the game is always a good thing.
Personally, I think a good tweak would be to end invincibility once an attack or grab is used. Keeps everything mostly the same just tones it down a little bit.
I think you should get infinite invincibility as long as your stock count is equal to or lower than your opponent, but only if your opponent is playing Marth :)
Honestly never really thought about this until now. I think this is a great video even if I don't have a fully informed opinion on this mechanic. I like that you brought up things like wobbling to explain that just because it's in the game this way doesn't mean it has to stay that way.
That said, at my low competitive level, I feel like the movement mixups to avoid the angel platform invincibility work well enough that I probably won't be complaining about it too much.
Good thumbnail. For real. This is the thumbnail game melee needs. GJ June
the idea I came up with when I was theory crafting making my own platform fighter was when the respawning player gets off the plat both players get invincibility for the same amount of time
so you could use it to reposition and if you timed it right maybe go for a meaty
Slap City & PlayStation AllStars have always had my favorite of balancing it in that once you press any type of attack button you lose your I frames which has always felt like a fair solution & i have even had fun trying specific setups to punish someone running at me & trying to abuse that invincibility & attack with me lingering types of attacks/projectiles
I do like the idea of respawning with a buff as a comeback mechanic. I think it is useful primarily to help the respawning player quicky re-enter neutral or (if played well) advantage, because the least desirable pattern would be snowballing an advantage state across multiple stocks.
Losing invincibility either on a timer or on your first attack as many have suggested seems very reasonable.
Changing invincibility to a lesser version of invincibility like super armor, or intangibility would be interesting.
Even giving the respawned character an attack buff would still help them start their stock aggressively, but be more vulnerable to counterplay.
Thought this was gonna be about how you can mash out of grabs faster if you’re down in stocks but yeah this is a better topic for a video
Fox with X-factor lvl 3 would be insane
There's definitely nothing stopping a Halo type spawn system where it would just spawn you in the farthest grounded spawn option from your opponent. That way it doesn't just reset players every time a kill happens
An often overlooked technique to get around invincibility is to unplug their controller.
Brawhalla has a mechanic so when the player does and attack they lose their invincibility
I think the problem with the “statistical analysis” is that it doesn’t compare the possibility space to how typical smash interactions occur. It’s not that “invincibility gives good stage positioning around a third of the time”, but really that invincibility almost always gives some mixup opportunities, and that creates a fundamentally unbalanced rps situation afterwards that can lead to a hit, continued positioning, or a return to neutral, but never a punish for the recently invincible player.
That is to say the ‘no benefit’ clip you show of Cody in the corner against wizzy on fd has him in the same position as gingers death clip, the only difference is that ginger lost the rps where Cody won. The difference in game outcome is that when ginger lost the rps he died, but when Cody won the rps he got nothing where he would usually get a shine or grab (he literally ran through captain falcons model). The angel platform isn’t powerful cause a third of the time you get a hit, it’s powerful cause that fourth possibility of getting hit yourself never happens
I know this is a very long way of saying “invincibility is powerful cause you can’t get hit” but I hope it makes sense. Great vid as usual june
That's a good point, thanks for sharing. Also definitely not a statistical analysis, because I didn't feel like doing TOO much work on it lol.
Invincibility definitely always grants a mixup, and that fundamentally influences the gamestate, but I found it hard to try and prove it via interactions because interactions are often based on outcomes. We count how many "wins" someone has. Which is an interested point to be made about how we view the game in general!
The fact that there was any RPS in which the aggressor "can't lose" to be played is a huge support for the angel platform being influential for sure. But showing that via data? Also hard, I couldn't think of how to do it lol.
Thanks for the comment and support mate
another banger
Squad Strike in Smash Ultimate actually does have the "respawn on the side opposite the one you died on" thing, though it also kinda does the opposite of what you suggested with regard to angel platform height: rather than having a much *lower* angel platform than normal, you have a much *higher* angel platform than normal, so much more of your respawn time is eaten up by the time you spend falling.
Smash Ultimate also has the option for a round-based game mode comparable to traditional fighters, with not only a neutral restart after each round, but also a timer reset as well... but much like Squad Strike, this mode is only available offline. Stage selection in this mode is also odd, with each player selecting one stage, so we'd also have to reconsider the way we select stages for this mode to be feasible as a competitive format even offline.
I thought about this exact thing last night
Dude, I wish you had edited in a donkey kong taunt sound or something at 7:56. That sound literally played in my head when you said his name like that. Other wise good video lmao
i thought you would mention slap city's method of angel platform. gives invincibility until you throw any move out
The thing about the angel platform as a comeback mechanic is that it requires skill to take advantage of it. You don't lose a stock because your opponent had angel platform invincibility, you lose a stock because your opponent skillfully used that angel platform invincibility to either clean up the stock or pull off a combo that lead to your death. Both cases require some amount of skill from the opponent: in the first case, the decisions you made previously directly lead to taking that stock, while in the second the combo requires skill to perform the combo in the context of the opponent's DI.
In addition, it's just a timed invincibility window. It's not a damage boost that leads to combos taking off 90% or more of your health, nor does it give access to a super powerful move that forces the opponent to play lame for an indeterminate amount of time. You get access to some strong potential offensive options, but like any good offensive options there's still defensive counterplay to those options in addition to the counterplay you mention here.
Of course, angel platforms could always use tuning, but they aren't inherently bad the way they are in Smash.
So looking at the respawn platform from a casual perspective, I think it was made so players can hop right back into the action without getting bullied immediately: in the air (away from the action below) with invincibility (so they don't get bullied when they land). I'm not sure how well your suggested method would work for a free for all, but I can reasonably see it be an alternative respawn method used when in 1v1s
This then opens the discussion on what should be done in team battles, but that's a topic for another day
*Junebug uploads anything*
Me: Finally some good fucking content
I don’t know if it would be better, but what if the platform, instead of coming down from above, rose up next to either ledge? Could potentially help the player who took the stock position better and, more importantly, would look cool as hell.
sounds like lakitu lol
All your vids are so watchable
Great video! Quick comment around Luigi, I don't think Luigi is as weak with respawn invulnerability as you say, of course his air drift is low but he gets other benefits in the form of a very high jump (the highest after Falco in the game) because of that I'd say he is better in this situation than a lot of characters who have poor drift, slow jumps AND shallow jump heights. Another quick point about the clips you showed for the Luigi players is that the ones not punishing were still gaining a good advantage by using their invulnerability to get their down b charge back. Not as strong as destroying your opponent but still worth discussion.
Last point I wanted to make (unrelated to Luigi) was something mang0 said in a super old MIOM podcast (I think) where he said as the player on the ground he looks to try and make the opponent whiff just as their invunerability runs out, e.g. he uses the opponent's false certainty that they are safe as an extra tool to make the opponent flub. Pretty cool!
I think ledges would need a fix before angel platform does, but imo have the condition for invincibility to end when the character touches the ground. Maybe like give them 4 frames of invincibility after the landing animation ends. With a max of 60 frames invincibility if they remain in the air. Also, they spawn in the middle of stage in the air.
Question about PM, is it still the tournament standard, or that now P+?
P+ is def the popular standard rn, its extremely rare for anyone to run PM 3.6 now
Normalized angel platform for center stage (or as close as possible without overlap with other 3 players) and 1 second of invincibility would remove some stalling.
Further removing invincibility as soon as the character puts out a hitbox would be interesting, but at only 1 second of invincibility it's not like the player can get a lot of mix-ups out anyway. Especially if they are still spawning in the air.
Of the top 11 characters in melee, the character that is hurt the most in my opinion by respawn invincibility is peach, as she has the hardest time chasing down opponents while invincible and running away from invincible opponents. Yet with invincibility, she can grab a free turnip which can turn the tide of the game if she grabs a stitch or special item. if peach is unable to grab a turnip against marth, then the matchup becomes incredibly difficult.
I do agree, that respawn invincibility naturally introduces more variance into the game, but it doesn't heavily alter matchups outside of marth peach. In addition, the weaker of the top 11 characters are partially buffed by the invincibility because of how it is usually easier to gimp the top tiers (so characters like samus, pichu and yoshi can have a better chance of killing fox, falco, falcon and marth at low percents rather than the inverse). The top tiers are still amazing with invincibility, but each character can also abuse it with varying degrees of success. On the other side of things, when the weaker of the top 11 are at high percent, the top tiers can be a nightmare to escape from with invincibility.
So without the invincibility, you help peach out in some matchups, but hurt her against marth, and give the better characters better survivability at low percents and worse ones better survivability at high percents. I personally prefer keeping things as they are but I can understand the reasoning for removing it. It makes certain matchups more explosive and other ones more prone to camping, but that is the nature of the game, which I am sure does suck for characters like sheik and peach. Doing a change like this will affect the meta in some way, just as ucf helped improve falcon and marth.
Video is one month old but here's my two cents. Spawn algorithm farthest possible from all enemy's to account for more than 1v1. Keep invincibility until you are within a certain range of an enemy or sufficient time. If enemy is in that range before drop keep invincibility til you exit that range, attack, or sufficient time has passed.
Many people have fallen for immediate Falcon Punch from angel platform bait, as you are still invincible for a bit after the move ends.
An interesting discussion you don't see very often.
I think my immediate gut reaction is that, however strong the angel platform may or may not be as a comeback mechanic, I really like having the ability to sit on the angel platform. Personally I feel like the pace of the game is better when you can take a beat in between stocks, both as a player and as a spectator. I think in general this leads me to prefer something like Chess Melee.
Im so glad someone people will actually listen to is talking about this. I've been cursing respawn invincibility for years.
The collected data is very interesting for your argument. I would argue it should be tweaked as well- but part of me also thinks it is functional as is, at least somewhat. It shows that a player needs to consider the mechanic itself and play around it in order to win the match (the player can't just be good offensively but defensively as well, and be able to switch between the two styles). I agree positioning tweaks as well as time of invincibility, and maybe making a condition like if you throw out an attack, grab, shield, or dodge you lose your invincibility early would maybe balance it more for high level competitive play.
This might just be me (puff main) but I never struggle against angel platforming, usually I just stay across stage and when they approach I run away.
Puff is probably the best character at dealing with it, she can take to sky or ledge pretty safely.
Clicked on the video not realizing who it was and I was thinking, "this guy kinda sounds like Dunky." Don't think I would've ever thought that if I knew it was a Junebug video on startup haha.
Ooh, data in the description!
Fun facts:
Zain got a hit or better 64% of respawns and an advantageous position 80% of the time.
Mang0 comparatively low, with 38% hit or better and 67% position advantage.
This is why Zain is king
Nice charts! How did you make them?
LOL dang I forgot to use the better ones you made, I think they snuck their way into the video anyway tho
thnx bbe
I can’t even count the amount of times a simple bowser back air has just instantly evened up stocks for me in ultimate. Too accurate
Well if it truly wanted to be a comeback mechanic they could base the duration on the stock difference. It’s always hard to make a 4 stock comeback, but having to survive 3 rounds of them being invincible makes it almost impossible. Maybe if you are up in stocks and then you die, no invincibility, and adjust that based on stocks. That being said that’s if you think comeback mechanics are good. If not, then your suggestion works better. These changes would effect neutral b charge up characters too
I clicked on this video because I thought angel platform was a thing I didn't know about. Luckily I found out within 40 seconds.
It's not a comeback mechanic. In a practical sense, it makes comebacks harder. It's an anti-comeback mechanic. It actually reduces the likelihood of comebacks, since a 3-1 lead provides 2 opportunities for the leading player to get the "angel platform" advantage. Sure, in some cases, it's a skill supplement which leads to slightly closer games. But in terms of a flagging player trying to catch up? It can only hurt.
Edit: I think it actually opens up an interesting discussion as to what defines a comeback mechanic, and what defines an anti-comeback mechanic. A snowball mechanic? But what type would the angel platform be? It overtly makes runaway games less likely, while simultaneously reducing the opportunities to mount a comeback. An averaging mechanic?
But I liked the video's execution, even if I disagreed with the message :')
What if we give a turbo super sonic character a come back mechanic ?
does 2 seconds of invincibility, but it’s canceled if you attack, have any obvious flaws?
really good video! I have a somewhat unrelated question, and it may be a stupid one but hear me out. I've been in and out of the smash community over the years. I haven't really done anything serious since I finished college in 2015 and back then, I used to play Project M with my friends literally every single day. Those friends have all moved and don't have time to play games anymore. When I heard that PM wasn't being made by the devs anymore, I stopped paying attention. But hearing you say that you still play it really perked my ears up. How are you still playing it? Is there a mod like Slippi I can use to play online? I loved PM maybe more than melee during that time and to be able to go back to it for a bit would be incredible.
Yup, projectplusgame.com, it's played on Dolphin and I believe there's a Discord and setup guide at that site.
I think you glossed over its most important function: giving the losing player a moment to collect themselves (if desired). That's why I think you need to be able to stay on the platform for a good few secs. Maybe tie the invincivility to moving far enough from the platform
Hardly the most important function. While this does seem good in theory, it rarely manifests in competitive play unless someone is going for a time out.
I'm fine with not changing the "waiting on plat" invincibility though, that's not really a huge advantage.
junebug vid Pog
You respawn. You can't attack and you're invincible until you touch the ground
I can't believe this is a real question, air angel platform with 2 seconds is just fine it's just a part of the game like whispy or randall, it's a thing you have to account for, it's a thing you can be lucky with, it's a thing to be unlucky with. It works completely fine and whatever amount of work it would take to make your modded spawning the standard would instantly be too much for what it's for so its just fine just like everything in the current rule set is
If you make it grounded...all characters who can pull items out of the ground or who can charge weapons will have a a free start of a charge.....
I like it being in the air...time is tricky..maybe make it so either time or distance traveled? That way there can be some save space for the other player.
maybe point five seconds after you land or double jump?
in brawlhalla the character ends invincibility when the player use every other options (like dashing attacking dodging) than just walking
Huh, I guess I never realized how strong it could be. Maybe it's just because I'm so used to playing around it after playing Smash half my entire life, but angel platforms never really cross my mind as a strong option.
I definitely choose to avoid my opponent via tricky movement. I play Falco in Ultimate, he can kinda just double jump away and by the time he's ready to land, invincibility is gone, allowing me to be both aggressive or defensive when landing.
Man i have always hated this. It feels kind of cheap if you are on the recieving end. Not bad for a solution and i feel rivals and slap city have some good ideas for solving it too.
Me and my friends always called the respawn invincibility "mercy."
As an ultimate player with ~3500 hours into the game and a few notable wins on WWR and offline wins on players of a similar caliber I see it as still being very strong, especially with the weaker platform camping and removal of ledge stalling. Sure, it’s not a very interactive feature, but I also don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. I believe Ultimate a few seconds of no interaction can give the player and commentators a good “mental reset” and a bit to get back to the match. I also think it can end in some hype moments where “player X got a bit too cocky by sitting on PS2 plat and now gets 0TD’d by Dark wizzy”. I can see both sides, however for now I think it a fine few seconds to give your opponent a bit of mix and test their knowledge on your defensive habits.
I watched your counter-arguments section, but you never addressed my first thought as soon as I started watching: it's NOT a comeback mechanic. By definition, it cannot truly allow a player to overcome a stock deficit: even if they kill the opponent and even things up, the OPPONENT now becomes invincible, and the stock-taker is put in disadvantage. The only way it could truly be considered a comeback mechanic is if the trailing player got longer invincibility than the leading player.
This was addressed in the video actually. Although both players benefit from the invincibility, it advantages (buffs) top tiers over lower tiers. Faster characters or characters with a stalling mechanic (puff, sheik) can more easily run away from an invincible low tier and can more easily chase while invincible.
@@poudycat Although that's true, it's pretty disconnected from the video's overall argument; this video is not about tier-priviledge or competitive balance between different characters. Most of its points are character-neutral, and those that talk about unbalanced matchups only do so within the context of this overall argument against angel-platform invincibility. It does not say "this is only a comeback mechanic in certain matchups", or even "in dittos, this ceases to be a comeback mechanic". And other than those cases where some characters are less well-equipped to deal with the invincibility period than their opponents, the video has nothing to say about the inevitable outcome where the stock-taker dies and likewise becomes invincible.
The video deceptively narrows its focus on the short period where the stock-loser becomes invincible and says "look at this broken comeback mechanic" instead of looking at the larger picture and acknowledging that the door inevitably swings both ways. When examined at a macro-level, you see that respawn invincibility is a mechanic that helps the leading player maintain their lead; even if some characters are less capable of taking advantage of it than others.
Chess Melee? More like Melee Blood
I think your solution is probably the best one. As it is now, fox is kind of forced to do a frame perfect firefox stall if he wants to 100% avoid interacting with the invincible player, which comes with the risk of dying at literally any percent if you don't perform it properly. I say he's forced because doing ground movement/platform mixups lead to a chance of you being hit which is clearly less optimal but more common due to the ease of execution of those things. I think Angel Plat really just buffs puff/sheik/falco the most as they have the easiest ledgestalls (sheik can get ledgehogged tho).
Yeah, it definitely affects certain characters way different, which is one of the things I don't like about it, I probably coulda gone more in-depth on that in my counter arguments section lol
What if you respawned helpless off the platform
I like to avoid the angel platform invincibility with ledge invincibility.
hell yeah, junebug content
Whenever I do a over 100% roll from ledge and kill the opponent (Martha usually), I always silently say to myself: "Rage does exist in melee"
Love your videos! Please do a “How PM fixed Mewtwo” It’ll be good content trust me
Coming soon!
What if every character has their inv. frame lengths and special properties for their angel platforms.
Mario has full 2 seconds
bowser has 5
Kirby gets 2 extra jumps
Sheik has full charge needles minus a second
Ganon has 7 seconds and 10% speed ect.
Sure doesn’t feel like a comeback mechanic when you get a jv4
I think the angel platform is pretty fair all things considered. Its not a crazy strong comeback mechanic like rage in ultimate. I think about what I will do with my invincible time pretty often and I also almost always go to ledge when dealing with someone coming back. But I have never thought "this is BS and shouldn't be in the game" However I do think the way it should be addressed is its 100 frames or until the player presses an attack button. But at the same time I don't think it really needs to be changed.
9:08 peach has good movement, wtf.
Her dash dance is amazing, her wavedash(while not sending far) is very usefull to abruptly change direction and she can triangle jump and double jump cancel as well as wavelanding very easily. Peach might even have the deepest movement in the game.
But can she get away from fox Marth Pikachu or sheik? Not especially
What if instead of the angel platform being grounded, they do a sped up version of their stage intro animation. After that you can decide how long of invincibility they need but I'd say 60 frames personally.
Why do they need a whole second? Anything at all after like 8 or 9 frames prevents the spawncamping problem
@@freddiesimmons1394 I don't know I think it's a good and pretty fun comeback mechanic. They were in disadvantage and died, why not drop them in advantage for a few seconds? Even with a neutral reset, they still are probably gonna get wrecked as characters like Peach and Link have time to pull out their items, but they don't.
@@shybandit521 if the opposing character is so close as to prevent peach or link from pulling an item, then they are too close to deal with peach/links jab/grab/nair/dash attack.
And no, a mechanic that strips interaction out of the game is hardly "good"
@@freddiesimmons1394 well I meant they should have time to pull their own item too if they need to.
@@shybandit521 ...they will. Unless you're expecting the opponent to purposely put themselves in a position to get grabbed or jabbed, peach can still pull a turnip.
i don't know, i think its fine and interesting.
i’m confused why you don’t want air time as a part of invincibility, that they should start on the ground. honestly, i think starting on the ground or the air is just a matter of preference, some chars would like to start on the ground, others in the air. also, if the air does give a little more dominance (eg can descend on fd to begin with a bair), then just shorten the time a little. i think air is cooler and too cool to take out, it can easily be balanced around imo. also, a char spawning on the ground is harder to predict their next move since they have more options so that’s also to the point of why starting grounded isn’t based
Called a Histogram