Easy Company (Band of Brothers) at the Crossroads - What REALLY happened?
Vložit
- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- See the original video here - • Easy Company Assaults ...
Links:
patreon - / vth
merch store - vth-store-3.cr...
Instagram - / vloggingthroughhistory
Discord - / discord
Twitter - / thehistoryguy25
For business inquiries contact: vloggingthroughhistory@gmail.com
my history/strategy gaming channel - / @thehistoryguy
Special Thanks to the following who are the official sponsors of this channel:
Executive Producers - John Lindley, James Book, Levi Stevenson, and Dennis Donehoo
Producer: Elijah Scott
Tier 6 - Christian Graves, Elijah Norrick, Han Pol, John Molden, Levi Stevenson, Ziv, Fernando Alonzo, Charles Glawe, Tiberiu Timo, Jason Dugan,
Tier 5 - Edward Guest, Austin Powell, D-Rock, Grant Nystrom, Drunk Binary, J.E. Sandoval, John Ivester, Kieran Francke, Scott Ferguson
YT Sponsors: Insane, Scar 22, Griffen, that one guy, Driftiest follower
Tier 4 - Adam Telladira, Anthony DeFedele, Charles Grist, Derek Wohl, Graham Brown, Kelly Moneymaker, Kryštof Kotásek, Odins_Martyr, Samuel Enns, Shoulder Devil, Sándor Nagy, Scott Miller, Scripted Samurai, Jake Murphy, Rodrigo Fernandez, Sebastian Diaz, John Kennedy
Tier 3 - Rafal Dubas, Matthew Calderwood, Kyle Hosea, Brandon Grams, Qethsegol, Robin Svensson, Austin White, Chris Curtis, John Molden, Peter Gadja, Raoul Kunz, Typhon, SGTMcAllen, David Storey, Cabo, Sephiroth94, Mikael Elevant, Andreas Christensen, Nate Dogg, Mathew Schrader, Nash Zahm, Jared Mackowski, Logan Cale, Stefan Garza, Zyndel Payne, Bran Flakes, Trunks, Brently Roberson, not me, Leo Strato, James Guyett, Michael Wisebaker, ZJ Johnson, Charles Schwab, WarHistoryBuffz, Wes Wilkins, The Real Larson, Samuel Elliott, J.L.Tillaeo, Joel Gilmore, Dr. Chemical, Steve Hollenczer Jr, Leon Kennedy, Daniel Hampton,
Mohammed Elzain, Sebastian Bergmayr, Maximus Todaro, Ewan May, Bernium 420
#History #WW2 #BandofBrothers
I'm a huge fan of you. I. From the UK. I'm in the Army. I love your stuff. You're smart, modest, humble, and objective. Thank you for your platform. I appreciate it and hope you know. You're the best historian I've ever seen
Thank you Connor! And thank you for your service.
Of course Winters was in great shape, Ross made him run up that hill so many danm times. 🤣
PLEASE do more Band of Brothers/Easy Company videos. The amount of information you're able to give about this battle that goes outside the miniseries is remarkable.
It’s still hard to believe that WW2 happened within my grandparents lifetime, it’s the most discussed conflict in history but it’s still so hard to grasp how much destruction and death happened like 80-90 years ago
When I was a kid I was told my grandfather’s Purple Heart story (shrapnel/ricochet from a strafing plane in his leg, Pacific Theatre). I didn’t place much importance on those war stories as a child but now I wish I did. I want to learn a lot more about the war in the Pacific, so far my obsession has been Churchill so mostly reading/watching about Europe.
Bonus comment:
Only other interesting bit I learned was my grandfather was promoted because he had a knack with engine maintenance/repair and fixed his officer’s (unsure if platoon leader or captain) jeep when it broke down so the officer wanted him close by to fix any future breakdowns.
Just wanted to let you know in case you haven't heard: Crusader kings 3 has a mod that allows you to seamlessly play battles through Bannerlord. I saw on stream you liked those two games
There is a 0% chance something like that could be "seamless."
There's gonna be some seams.
i saw a video about it and it’s a really cool mod i might get it
Market-Garden did achieve some benefits:
1. It liberated about 1/3rd of Holland.
2. It isolated over 4,000 German garrison troops against the coast who would normally be pulled for line duty.
3. It established USAAF fighter bases in Holland allowing for escorts to cover all of Germany.
4. It severely depleted the 9th and 10th SS which were in Arnhem to R&R for the upcoming "Bulge". The 9SS was supposed to spearhead the winter offensive, but due to the losses in Arnhem, was forced into a reinforcement role. The 10th was so depleted after the battle that it was effectively eliminated in all but name only. Had they both been at expected levels in December, the Battle of the Bulge could have been quite different.
you make some good points but American troops shouldn't have been put under a British general for use only American generals should command American troops.
@@Venator631 Ike knew what he was doing.
1/3rd? Have you ever looked on a map? It's not even close. We all know it was a rush to Berlin instead of liberating NL (which is what the Canadians and Poles did).
@@demi3115 this was always the primary goal, liberation is a byproduct
No.
Even with those SS divisions, I don't see the Bulge changing much.
Remember, the goal for the bulge was Antwerp.
If anything, those two divisions would've made it *harder* for the Germans, as their logistics had collapsed with what they did send very shortly after the initial offensive began. Having two additional divisions would've made the logistics even worse.
Sometimes I've thought BoB to over convey Winters as a leader. But, this video goes to show he was every bit the brilliant tactician and fearless leader he was shown to be in that show.
What BoB certainly did was put a focus on Easy Company. There's so much stuff talking about the series and Easy on this platform that one could think they won the war on their own, with some support by the rest of the 101st. lol
@@HDreamer Literally no one could or does think that. That's just silly.
I would make a addendum to this video in regard to the SS.
The SS are oft referred to as elite but they simply weren't. They were fanatical, but their training was on par or below Wehrmacht standards and their leadership was generally well below that of Wehrmacht units. Easy Company's fighting at the crossroads nicely illustrates this. The sentry isn't doing he was supposed to be doing and the officers in charge of the SS companies really aren't taking any measures to safeguard their units or to retrieve the situation.
This leaves the SS with their fanaticism. And while fanatical troops sound good, and they can be, it is a knife that cuts both ways.
Time and again, SS units stay and fight in situations that would likely have seen other troops retreat. Sometimes this leads to success against the odds but often it means the situation they are in deteriorates to the point where they are overrun and lose most of their equipment. This is a problem for equipment starved Germnany, and it is exacerbated by the SS in the late war being given priority for replacement kit. They get better kit, faster and in greater quantities. This leads to a situation where the best kit goes to the SS that keep losing their stuff at a prodigious rate, only to be re-equipped again at the expense of veteran Wehrmacht units kept under-equipped.
As a result, a case can be made that the SS did more harm than good, both tactically and in a strategic sense. Their are not the Teutonic über-soldiers they are often made out to be.
So as not to be too one side about this, allied soldiers do time and again mention they were particularly scary to deal with. Their fanaticism did mean the allies never quite knew what to expect and had to go to extremes to eliminate SS hold-outs from positions no-one else would even bother to defend, let alone defend to the last.
Pretty much a bunch of random anti-vax Karens that got trained by a dude with some military experience
@@tonytouchzz you mean bunch of pro vax karens
@@tonytouchzz how silly do you feel now, anti-vaxers were right.
I just subscribed after lurking for ahwile. I want to say I LOVE your videos! You add a layer of depth that I love. Thank you for doing what you do!
Thank you so much! Glad you’re here.
I love reading Websters account of this fight. His book is really good if you can stand the complaining he does through most of it. I read it twice a year to keep it fresh in my mind.
Winters was one of the smartest man on the field. This battles shows it. Great video
Love ww2 content. Such a fascinating period of history as the world began to use industrial mechanical engineering and conducted warfare tactics we still can lean on alot today in lessons learned from this war.
Had the pleasure the visit the Crossroads junction itself last year, Band of Brothers did a perfect job recreating the area. The dike, the draining ditches, I saw the whole fight in front of me, staggering
I wish I would have had a history teacher like you in high school!
Please do more Band of Brothers/ Easy Company. Like last patrol who was leading the raid.
Both Winters and Nixon were only 24 years old when they enter the war ,
which is super crazy .
The original was the first video I watched today on CZcams all the way back to 8am PST, so I am happy to see your perspective on this videos. I love this channel, their overview animation style almost puts you in God’s perspective, if I am allowed to say that. The story of the Crossroads is said to be Dick Winter’s preferred example of E Coy’s superior battle space dominance, more than what they achieved in Normandy or the Battle of the Bulge.
Its probably too long for a reaction vid, but I wonder if you have ever seen an English youtuber called Tik, he does a splendid account of the battle in which he postulates that had Gavin(i think thats correct) taken Nijmegan on that first day as he was supposed too then the operation would have been a success and does a good job of debunking the Myth that 30 Corps was late. its a great channel and one that you might want to check out in your spare time (if you actually get any that is lol ) another great vid thx for the content :)
If you are interested there is another youtuber, montemayor, he covers some WW2 battles. His most popular is the battle of midway (its done in 3 parts) its quite long but it is done very well and I would love to see you cover it if you happen to know any extras about it. I love all of your content, especially since you always have something to add :)
He is aware, he's done montemayor's video on Pearl Harbor.
@@kix4635 oh sweet! I guess i probably should have checked first haha. Well cool more videos for me!
Sir plz react to basil II by kings and generals, in his reign Byzantine empire experienced it's second peak after him Byzantines were in steady decline
It's absolutely angering that Winters doesn't get the MOH
There is a strong argument for the MOH for both what he did on D-Day & this story in the Netherlands.
@@James-zg2nl it’s definitely possible however the best chance he had was probably when news broke out that he had passed away a decade or two ago and get it posthumously in honor of his passing and his actions
It is the 20-year anniversary of the show this year back in September. HBO did a very cool podcast series commemorating the show, giving good insight and never-before-heard stories about the show. If you’re a fan of the show and a podcast listener it’s a no-brainer.
A week ago on Dec 3. 2021 Edward Shames passed away. He was the last surviving officer of Easy Company. He joined Easy as a lieutenant for Market Garden and served with them till the end of the war.
AFAIK Bradford Freeman is now the last still living veteran of Easy Company.
I read a book about a british ariborne soldier who was fighting at the last bridge in Market Garden. He came in with gliders.
Was fascinating to read! He got captured by the germans, inprisoned in a royal dutch palace and eventually escaped with a few others back to britain!
I forgot whos story it was right now as I don't have the book with me right now but It was really fascinating to read first hand accounts on what happened
A new book proposes Anthony Blunt of the “Cambridge 5” gave info about Market Garden to the Germans.
Chris amaaaazing video please do more of these especially the band of brothers ones keep up the work
Winters was playing chess and the SS was playing tic-tac-toe.
I appreciate your comment on Stephen Ambrose. The man is a great writer and tells a fantastic story, and we can all be grateful for the way he recorded Easy Company's story and inspired the remarkable TV series... but as a historian, he's borderline disgraced.
Ambrose does the cardinal sin of taking one single primary source and immediately accepting it as a factual recollection of events, which is just bad history. Or even if it's multiple primary sources, they all share the same biases -- all have the bias of being from the perspective of E company.
This is how you get things like Lt. Norman Dike described as an utterly incompetent fool with no business being a front-line commander -- yes, he was hated by the Easy Company men, but that's precisely why one must consider the bias in their version of the story. In truth, Lt. Dike was a decorated combat officer who had already earned two Bronze Stars for his actions earlier in the war; and while he froze up and was relieved of command during the assault on Foy, it was because he had been wounded in the shoulder and was unable to think straight. The Easy Company men didn't consider this, because they didn't like the guy and preferred to disparage him in their stories. That's why you need multiple sources.
Or, after their jump during Normandy, the Easy Company men spoke very harshly about their pilots and the way they dropped them all in completely wrong locations (and in the series they're portrayed as panicky greenhorns, although that might just be Hollywood talking) -- it's important to remember that it was the very first combat drop for the 101st, and they were the fresh rookies who didn't really know what to expect from a jump like that. By contrast, the 82nd Airborne (who already had two combat drops under their belts) was actually very appreciative and complimentary to their pilots, understanding how incredibly difficult and dangerous the whole operation was and how brave the pilots had to be to fly them in that deep under so much enemy fire.
Great video, thanks!
This shows what a great politician Eisenhower was. He dealt with Montgomery and Patton and let us not forget de Gaulle.
Absolutely
Dealing with De Gaul really must have taken a very special person.
Even after the war, as president of France, he continues to be very difficult in everything having to do with the Americans or British. Lots of strange things about the early Nato and EU precursors comes back to De Gaul really not trusting them at all.
these small event videos are great. means we can go into some real detail about these remarkable events in history
Grenades scared me so much, the “what if the fuze malfunctions and it blows me up” thoughts were always on my mind when I had to hold one. Plus in basic training each soldier is supposed to throw 2 real grenades, my first throw landed like 4 feet in front of the dugout I threw from. (I wouldn’t be surprised if the outer wall needed serious patch work.) My safety threw my second grenade, stating he wanted to go home to his family in one piece.
I never quite understood why the goal of Operation Marketgarden was Arnhem. Sure, it got you across the Rhine, but there is still the IJssel to the east. While turning east at Nijmegen kept you south of the Rhine but into Germany. I have read that the goal of Marketgarden was to take Walcheren and Zuid-Beveland thereby opening the Wester-Schelde and allowing the allies to use Antwerpen. However, Arnhem is not only a long way off from Walcheren and Zuid-Beveland, but you also have to cross a lot of rivers. The idea may have been that by threatening the Reich from (north of) Arnhem the Germans would pull forces from North-Holland, South-Holland and Zeeland to attack the allies who were north of Arnhem from the west. Thereby weakening the forces that could be called upon to defend Walcheren and Zuid-Beveland. The role of an allied Army north of Arnhem would be to draw in as many German forces from the West as possible.
That does make more sense than putting an army north of Arnhem just to get stuck west of the IJssel. A river makes a great defensive barrier after all and the Germans would have plenty of time to re-enforce the IJssel defences while the allies put an army across the Rhine at Arnhem.
This map shows the rivers well: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_provinces_Netherlands-nl.svg . You can see the We4sterschelde on the bottom-left of the map.
On december 6 died last officer of company E, Edward Shames.
If you don’t mind, I’d really love to see your reaction to any timeline video from Felz (especially the Cold War one). It would be fascinating to hear your own thoughts, experiences and knowledge regarding each events in the timeline. Love your videos and this is just a small suggestion :)
The veterans were sent to the eastern front, these were young and inexperienced soldiers. They can hardly be called elite especially in 1944.
I enjoyed this smaller level battle.
Would love more BOB/Easy content
17:44
"There ain't no Poles in the SS!"
The Battle of Carentan is another video about Easy Company
I actually grew up in Arnhem, and lived there for almost all my life, but to this day I still don't know which bridge is the "bridge too far".
@@dusan9117 Oh lol... I think it is that one bridge I somehow just never used. I always used either the Nelson Mandelabrug or the Pleiroute.
Great breakdown
Meanwhile, just across the Rhine, a VC was being won.
I heartily recommend Jeremy Clarkson's documentary here: czcams.com/video/RbS4Ivl85GQ/video.html on what it takes to win the VC, which gives very full details on the action and just what it took, and the character of Major Rebert Henry Cain, who was (very) busy earning his at the time this was going on and within a few miles.
The final comment is a stunner.
I've seen that and it's by far one of his most beautiful pieces he's created. Jeremy Clarkson may say some stupid stuff, and he may do some silly things, but he is by far one of the most humble and generous men.
As a lover of military history this documentary had my attention every second of the way it was so good
You should take a look at "WW2 - What if USA joined Axis instead of the Allies". Compared to what you usually react to, it's of lower quality, however, it seems decently well thought out. The concept in general is pretty interesting, so I'd like to see what someone with a background in history thinks about how they played it out.
Operations room is awesome! They also have some videos on the Iraq wars and stuff!
Really insightful!
I recognize that patch I think I have that unit on Enlisted.
Love your channel !!!
I fuckin loved this one... Easy rules. What a legendary story.
For those who don’t know, Col. Edward Shames, the last surviving officer of Easy Company, passed away this month on December 3rd.
What an incredible legacy these men left behind, and what an honor it would be to meet one of them and thank them for their service!
I do like these kinds of videos and I’d love to see more
Just on time, I just got through episode 1
Just finished rewatching Band of Brothers today and I was wondering is there any other series on the level of it or close?
"LEEROOOOY WINTERS!"
Pretty crazy how close Winters came to being killed by that sentry
Not to take away from Winter’s leadership but I couldn’t avoid thinking on how this attack could’ve gone horribly wrong if the Germans had a competent leadership. Easy company could’ve easily been wiped out by the superior enemy numbers. Even the best officers in the world need luck to be successful. War is a contest that involves a lot of luck.
I think German infantry misjudged the scale and the direction of the attack. If you look at the direction of German 2 companies , not from Winter company direction but their own position :
2 Companies moved deep into U.S defensive line to act as distraction. Then they suddenly got spotted.
First company moved forward to defend against the incoming attack (They faced the enemy earlier (The scout team), shot were fired, so they were already considered themself under attack), the machine gun from crossroad covered the first company advancing south. The second company acted as reserve, laid low in their position.
And the most important part of their operation was they must act like there were not only 2 companies but whole German Army on that crossroad.
That was when the real battle happened. The Crossroad got flanked by Easy Company and instantly got wiped out (Which would make the reserve company feel that they faced a superior enemy numbers and likely under sniper and artillery attack (It was mortal though)). U.S machine guns fired "heavily" on the reserve company direction made it more chaotic.
The second company would feel that they were facing a huge counter-attack on the flank. While the first company would feel that they got cut off (specially when they see the second/ reserve company got wiped out). They were meant to be distraction, not to die there so ... they fled ... without any order
It was what i think happened in German side on Crossroad , a mixed bag of bad leadership, misjudgment and horrible moral.
@@SanarySeggnete totally agree with your analysis. I fully understand that the fog of war can make a unit believe things that are not true. Although something I find inexcusable is that the first German company were pretty much in a ditch surrounded by elevated positions with no sentries on the high ground. ESPECIALLY after the earlier machine gun encounter. They should’ve all been ordered to take defensive positions on the higher ground and wait for an attack.
Actually, the most retarded decision would be : not sent out any look-out units around their position but decided to push forward with one company (likely without any forward unit too). The reason their whole machine squad got picked up was simply because there were no units to protect their flanks.
The situation became:
Advancing company : It's not our job to protect the flank
Reserving company : Our job is to stay hidden, not fighting
Easy Company : Our job is to wipe out both of you by accident
Both German company : Who are you?
Excellent video
Check out Band of Brothers podcast on CZcams. 20th anniversary special. Prologue w/ Tom Hanks. czcams.com/video/GlcRq1noeSA/video.html
Each episode follows the actor that play one of the BoB and how they got the part and their relation to the real BoB they portrayed. Good stuff.
Episode 5 is Crossroads.
You say flash, I say thunder.
Love operations room and your vids
"It's a whole 'nother company!"
Definitely more!!👍
Have you heard of the game franchise brothers in arms
Do a video on operation varsity
The last BoB just died this past week. Col. Ed Shames, RIP.
2nd to last. Brad Freeman is now the lone survivor of Easy Company.
@@VloggingThroughHistory Oops, I had him dead years ago.
Always a good vid
But you haven't watched yet lmao
@@Eire_Aontaithe I don't need to in order to know this vid is gonna be fire
I hope they do Easy Company attack on Foy.
There's one thing I'm gonna mention.
The SS are, for whatever reason, given way too much importance, even today.
Granted, some SS divisions that were absolutely elite units, but most of them were not much more than policing divisions that were told they were the superior people.
In fact, many SS divisions were made up of "volunteers" of occupied territories. Some did legitimately volunteer, but I'd wager that most volunteered cause it was the best choice.
The other was to work hard labor in a camp.
Back to the SS divisions, there were plenty of German SS divisions who... let's just say that the allies wiped the floor with them.
Could you react to the latest Alternate History Hub video? youve probably been asked this already
Was Germany running out of officers at this point in the war or why were the German companies so headless?
pretty sure they wasted all their elite units and officers at the eastern front. all that remains in 1944 are useless thugs and bandits
That was a good one.
Mate I’m begging you watch the Victoria cross documentary it’s about Arnhem it’s so good you have to watch it proper class
Ike should have stood up to Montgomery more, I think he kept Patton around so he could live vicariously through him when Monty fucked up....LOL
When did Monty fuck up? If you're talking about Market Garden, it was Montys plan sure but that was all, the preparation and execution were at fault still it was 90% successful.
@@orwellboy1958 Because he did his best to piss everyone he could off, in his own army, and his Allies, so when the memoir-writing time came around, no one was eager to portray him nicely.
The most notable of these is Bradley. When Ike elected to place a large chunk of American forces on the north part of the Battle of the Bulge under Monty’s command temporarily, he threw a hissy fit, which Monty nicely exacerbated after the fact by making inflammatory remarks at a press event after the fact. Bradley forevermore had a vendetta against him which spread among a lot of his subordinates.
'Art' Arthur Youman not Abe Youman led the 4-man patrol..
This vary interesting and vary different than the show
The Polish Airborne's part of Market Garden is a subject of scrutiny in Poland,we mainly talk about how a lot of the blame was put on Sosabowski himself and how he was an unsung hero who was kinda forgotten.
React to extra histories sengoku jidai
please react to "who owns the statue of libety?" by cgp grey
Our generation misses out on all the big wars, made us soft. Potentially a good thing
The SS be like aight I'mma do what Napoleon do. To bad tehy copy what Napoelon did at his rose. Just pour more troops in to the grind.
16:55 that is a big generalization. SS was never like napoleonic Old Guard, chosen men.
This was first of all militarized, party-militia, that with time grew to become second army, paralell in some way to Wehrmacht. But it was build like any other army, from scratch, so it is very possible, that battalion was indeed reserve, training or ad-hoc formed battalion without any prior combat experience. Also worth noting, SS due to its political and ideological background oftenly wasn`t trained as good (in meaning so proffessional or reliable) as regular Wehrmacht. And finally, at this stage of the war, Germans lacked experienced veterans, leaders and nco`s.
Very good example was given by Steven Zaloga in his lecture about Ardennes; battalion-size elements of 3rd Fallschirm Div. (previously elite) were so badly led by inexperienced officer, that it could not break defence of US recon platoon for one-two hours. Only after one old seargant took over after officer was killed, Germans mopped that platoon up in no more time, than required for sip of tea...
So crappy leadership on German part ve. great one on US side indeed, but being SS does not matter here in any way.
I’m an Elijah to
Also second 😁
They sure don't make them like that generation! I wish I could be half the men they were.
Same.
If there was a real Captain America, it is Dick Winters.
Let's rally in the killing zone. Look! The Americans have the high ground. We need reinforcements. Let's reinforce in the killing zone.
Yup. Leadership was a big part of the victory by US against the Axis.
We were a country of engineers, strategists, problem solvers.
I have seen well written characters who did this. There are also people I know who are like this. Think 10 steps ahead and look at all possibilities. But do it quickly, fluidly and decisively.
You are correct. That is what Dick Winters did.
Do more of these videos. Maybe someone will do the Battle of Henderson Field on Guadalcanal with a focus on John Basilone.
I am also interested in someone doing a video on the fate of CV-1 (later AV-3) USS Langley. It is a very interesting and tragic story. I think it demonstrates the confusion of the Allies and the tactical advantage Japan possessed at the start of the war.
Great stuff, more of the same please :D
I'm not so sure the SS were good as much as they were vicious and savage. Wehrmacht regulars were better trained and probably had better leadership.
Can you react maybe to Ben Shapiro’s presidents ranking?
a commentary on a commentary?
Hi
I love the movie The britch too far, nostalgy is strong
A lot of the men thought Liebgott was jewish yeah.
Yeah he had Jewish ancestry through his mother I believe but he himself wasn’t jewish
Entschuldigung danke
heya! Not related to this video but I'm not on any other social media :)
Found this video that I thought you'd like, not something for a reaction video but interesting as a history buff:
czcams.com/video/DIeFMVzyqaw/video.html
Not all SS unit were elite by this stage off WW2. There were some that were, but as the war dragged on new SS divisions were formed that were pretty much garbage.
In reality . Montgomery . Was not a good leader as they deem , in truth , , Monty , , all his orders actually came from Bletchley . The code breakers hall . AlanTurings team had broken the enigma code . So all , Montys , plans and tactics came directly from Bletchley Hall from but , monty was a glory boy that liked to adjust things , shall we say , hence in this battle montys , , egotistic adjustment . Had a lot of people killed unnecessarily hence one big fk up . As the british are famous for a lot of the time . So Monty s fame , came from the work of others behind the scenes . He was an EGOTISTICAL little shit in reality . Fact . Myself , I am English . My information comes from family that were actually there . Some of them are still over ther e
First