A very interesting and enlightening view David, I have not yet seen the movie. Whenever I do watch a historical movie, I always set my expectations low so as not to be thoroughly disappointed. This sounds like a case in point, take what you can from the enjoyable scenes, I hear the section on Austerlitz is superb. I also agree with you on the Patriot movie, a typical Hollywood romp, that doesn’t let history get in the way. However, it did portray well how the British alienated the colonists and so led to the war.
Very interesting to hear your thoughts and it has sparked some new ones in me. I'm not a regular cinema goer but you remind me that the experience of seeing something on the big screen has merit in itself regardless of whether the film is good or bad. I was wondering what the film would be like in 4D Max which I have locally - the battle scenes would be even more overwhelming when you can feel the ground shake and sense musket balls whistle past your ears, so I may yet attend a local screening. The more I think about it the more I read into Ridley Scott's thought processes and I wonder if a central theme of the film was the nature of History itself. I understand that there are several scenes in the film that replicate famous paintings. Very few paintings of the battles are actual depictions of the battle fields and some are complete works of fiction - was Scott echoing this artistic license and suggesting that his film might colour the understanding of Napoleon for future generations just as equally as the works of scholars (who were not contemporary as he has pointed out)? Is the soundtrack for Austerlitz referencing the monastery on the battle field or is that coincidental? Do the Prussians arrive on the battlefield of Waterloo from the wrong side precisely to take the experts by surprise just as Napoleon was taken by surprise on the day? Is Napoleon an inept lover to debunk the myth that all Frenchmen are good in bed? Does Napoleon have to stand on a box to look into the face of the Pharoah because he was supposed to be short? It reminds me of a Pre-Raphaelite painting which has exquisite detail (as you describe the details of the uniforms) but just below the surface are multiple symbols for the viewer to discover (or invent?) for themselves. Most of all I was struck by the detail of the awe of the midshipmen on board Bellerophon. Napoleon's charisma was of great significance to how the British handled him after his surrender. He had just regained the throne of France with only a handful of his guard to assist him. He was still quite capable of doing so again until he could be removed to St Helena (the Napoleonic era equivalent of Guantanamo Bay in terms of legalities). He stayed on board a ship in Plymouth Sound for several days and was not allowed to disembark simply because the writ of habeas corpus would run (and there were sympathisers on shore trying to present a writ to the naval commander who had to take extreme measures to avoid being served with it). Not far away was a sizeable force of disaffected American and French POWs who had already rioted in Dartmoor prison and there were many Irish sailors in the fleet who were easily swayed to mutiny and had done so in recent years. I often wonder if it is more than coincidence that there are abundant Freemasonry symbols on the gravestone of a person who drowned trying to view Napoleon in the Sound. Napoleon, supposed to have been a Freemason himself, made regular appearances on deck and crowds flocked from far and wide to cheer him and their boats had to be forcibly kept at a distance (the reason for the unfortunate drowning). Yes, a similar scene to the charming of the midshipmen took place, only in actuality it was junior officers and marines who fell under the spell. The Admiralty breathed a sigh of relief when he was finally shipped off to St Helena where he could be safely contained rather like some terrifying beast. So all in all I am beginning to think Ridley Scott has been extremely clever even if the product itself sounds like a poor film in terms of box office appeal and academic scrutiny.
I would suggest you go and see the film, I would be curious to know your thoughts, Ralph. I think many of the comments you made do bear thinking about, it might be that the fulcrum of this film has to do with the subversion of expectations. Given what you said, I look forward to watching it again once it is on Apple TV, or another streaming platform. I've experienced the "shock & awe" effect of the cinema, so watching it in the basement on the projector might not suffer too much. With all that said, and stripping away expectations/knowledge of Napoleon and the history, I am not sure if this is really a good or even interesting film. So I wonder that, even if we allow for the creators of the film playing with expectations, is there actually a good film in there? I am not sure.
@@ZenMiniPainting I don't think I will enjoy the film but am enjoying the discussion and therefore Ridley Scott deserves praise for that at least. I wonder how it will do in the Box Office and whether it will pick up awards and for what as they are based on different criteria.
A separate remark on wargaming topics. Foundry do a 'proper' shade for French guns - French Gun Olive Green 109 - Phlegm Green is quite virulent in comparison. Adding elements to avoid too much use of the retrospectoscope is why I like Black Powder so much as the potential to blunder and also to be disordered and not under command can recreate the mistakes as well as the successes of historical commanders.
I don't have that French Gun Olive, unfortunately, and buying it from the USA and having it shipped is an expense I am keen to avoid at the moment. So what I did in the end was was the gun frame to tone in down a little. If I can procure that colour later, I can switch to it. But for the moment I am happy to get the miniatures painted. I suppose these guns were painted with a duff tin ;)
I think most of us get French artillery green quite wrong, at least for the Napoleonic period. (Things may have changed by the 1870s.) Contemporary paintings and colour chips from surviving gun carriages suggest it was more of a dirty yellow colour with just a touch of green. That’s perhaps not surprising since officially it was to be mixed from 80 parts yellow ochre paint with 1 part black paint. Several reliable authors (Michael Head, Stephen Summerfield) have mentioned this before.
For me this film was high hopes and a bitter disappointment. The mummy scene was filmed to show Napoleon short and clumsy - he tipped the mummy over - and the scene in the ship was meant to hear Napoleon blaming others for his defeat. (Which he actually did in his memoirs.) A really bad movie for me. A pity. When it comes to Waterloo, I'm not surprised that the French win, it's just that the method suggests a scenario that isn't entirely correct. (The Brith troops were covered by the ridge against cannon fire.) Wellington's victory was narrower than is often portrayed. Ney's cavalry attack could have succeeded, your chances were good. The English had a lot of fresh troops and establishing and holding a square requires a lot of discipline. It speaks for his troops that they succeeded, .. but there was also luck. In my opinion in a open Waterloo scenario, neither player should know if the Prussians will arrive. A Wellington who knows they are coming will also act differently. The historical figure couldn't be so sure. Theoretically it should also be possible that instead Grouch could arrive on the field. This would keep both sides guessing. 😉
I just saw your latest video about the film, look forward to watching it. Regarding a Waterloo scenario, I 100% agree. I'd like to play it as you have described, as it adds some friction into a scenario that is all too predicable and can be "gamed" for advantages that neither general actually had.
Well what to say. I think you should be a movie critic professionally 😎 I enjoyed this video a lot. One of those I used to paint with and relax. Thank you for that. Will be watching Napoleon when it comes out for streaming. I’ll watch Waterloo first and then that one for balance 🫣
Hahaha, I don't think I would be a good film critic, personally, but I did try to give "Napoleon" a fair shake. I'll likely re-watch "Waterloo" again soon since it has been a while.
A very interesting and enlightening view David, I have not yet seen the movie. Whenever I do watch a historical movie, I always set my expectations low so as not to be thoroughly disappointed. This sounds like a case in point, take what you can from the enjoyable scenes, I hear the section on Austerlitz is superb.
I also agree with you on the Patriot movie, a typical Hollywood romp, that doesn’t let history get in the way. However, it did portray well how the British alienated the colonists and so led to the war.
Very interesting to hear your thoughts and it has sparked some new ones in me. I'm not a regular cinema goer but you remind me that the experience of seeing something on the big screen has merit in itself regardless of whether the film is good or bad. I was wondering what the film would be like in 4D Max which I have locally - the battle scenes would be even more overwhelming when you can feel the ground shake and sense musket balls whistle past your ears, so I may yet attend a local screening. The more I think about it the more I read into Ridley Scott's thought processes and I wonder if a central theme of the film was the nature of History itself. I understand that there are several scenes in the film that replicate famous paintings. Very few paintings of the battles are actual depictions of the battle fields and some are complete works of fiction - was Scott echoing this artistic license and suggesting that his film might colour the understanding of Napoleon for future generations just as equally as the works of scholars (who were not contemporary as he has pointed out)? Is the soundtrack for Austerlitz referencing the monastery on the battle field or is that coincidental? Do the Prussians arrive on the battlefield of Waterloo from the wrong side precisely to take the experts by surprise just as Napoleon was taken by surprise on the day? Is Napoleon an inept lover to debunk the myth that all Frenchmen are good in bed? Does Napoleon have to stand on a box to look into the face of the Pharoah because he was supposed to be short? It reminds me of a Pre-Raphaelite painting which has exquisite detail (as you describe the details of the uniforms) but just below the surface are multiple symbols for the viewer to discover (or invent?) for themselves. Most of all I was struck by the detail of the awe of the midshipmen on board Bellerophon. Napoleon's charisma was of great significance to how the British handled him after his surrender. He had just regained the throne of France with only a handful of his guard to assist him. He was still quite capable of doing so again until he could be removed to St Helena (the Napoleonic era equivalent of Guantanamo Bay in terms of legalities). He stayed on board a ship in Plymouth Sound for several days and was not allowed to disembark simply because the writ of habeas corpus would run (and there were sympathisers on shore trying to present a writ to the naval commander who had to take extreme measures to avoid being served with it). Not far away was a sizeable force of disaffected American and French POWs who had already rioted in Dartmoor prison and there were many Irish sailors in the fleet who were easily swayed to mutiny and had done so in recent years. I often wonder if it is more than coincidence that there are abundant Freemasonry symbols on the gravestone of a person who drowned trying to view Napoleon in the Sound. Napoleon, supposed to have been a Freemason himself, made regular appearances on deck and crowds flocked from far and wide to cheer him and their boats had to be forcibly kept at a distance (the reason for the unfortunate drowning). Yes, a similar scene to the charming of the midshipmen took place, only in actuality it was junior officers and marines who fell under the spell. The Admiralty breathed a sigh of relief when he was finally shipped off to St Helena where he could be safely contained rather like some terrifying beast. So all in all I am beginning to think Ridley Scott has been extremely clever even if the product itself sounds like a poor film in terms of box office appeal and academic scrutiny.
I would suggest you go and see the film, I would be curious to know your thoughts, Ralph. I think many of the comments you made do bear thinking about, it might be that the fulcrum of this film has to do with the subversion of expectations.
Given what you said, I look forward to watching it again once it is on Apple TV, or another streaming platform. I've experienced the "shock & awe" effect of the cinema, so watching it in the basement on the projector might not suffer too much.
With all that said, and stripping away expectations/knowledge of Napoleon and the history, I am not sure if this is really a good or even interesting film. So I wonder that, even if we allow for the creators of the film playing with expectations, is there actually a good film in there? I am not sure.
@@ZenMiniPainting I don't think I will enjoy the film but am enjoying the discussion and therefore Ridley Scott deserves praise for that at least. I wonder how it will do in the Box Office and whether it will pick up awards and for what as they are based on different criteria.
A separate remark on wargaming topics. Foundry do a 'proper' shade for French guns - French Gun Olive Green 109 - Phlegm Green is quite virulent in comparison. Adding elements to avoid too much use of the retrospectoscope is why I like Black Powder so much as the potential to blunder and also to be disordered and not under command can recreate the mistakes as well as the successes of historical commanders.
I don't have that French Gun Olive, unfortunately, and buying it from the USA and having it shipped is an expense I am keen to avoid at the moment. So what I did in the end was was the gun frame to tone in down a little.
If I can procure that colour later, I can switch to it. But for the moment I am happy to get the miniatures painted. I suppose these guns were painted with a duff tin ;)
I think most of us get French artillery green quite wrong, at least for the Napoleonic period. (Things may have changed by the 1870s.) Contemporary paintings and colour chips from surviving gun carriages suggest it was more of a dirty yellow colour with just a touch of green. That’s perhaps not surprising since officially it was to be mixed from 80 parts yellow ochre paint with 1 part black paint. Several reliable authors (Michael Head, Stephen Summerfield) have mentioned this before.
For me this film was high hopes and a bitter disappointment. The mummy scene was filmed to show Napoleon short and clumsy - he tipped the mummy over - and the scene in the ship was meant to hear Napoleon blaming others for his defeat. (Which he actually did in his memoirs.) A really bad movie for me. A pity.
When it comes to Waterloo, I'm not surprised that the French win, it's just that the method suggests a scenario that isn't entirely correct. (The Brith troops were covered by the ridge against cannon fire.) Wellington's victory was narrower than is often portrayed. Ney's cavalry attack could have succeeded, your chances were good. The English had a lot of fresh troops and establishing and holding a square requires a lot of discipline. It speaks for his troops that they succeeded, .. but there was also luck.
In my opinion in a open Waterloo scenario, neither player should know if the Prussians will arrive. A Wellington who knows they are coming will also act differently. The historical figure couldn't be so sure. Theoretically it should also be possible that instead Grouch could arrive on the field. This would keep both sides guessing. 😉
I just saw your latest video about the film, look forward to watching it.
Regarding a Waterloo scenario, I 100% agree. I'd like to play it as you have described, as it adds some friction into a scenario that is all too predicable and can be "gamed" for advantages that neither general actually had.
Well what to say. I think you should be a movie critic professionally 😎
I enjoyed this video a lot. One of those I used to paint with and relax. Thank you for that. Will be watching Napoleon when it comes out for streaming. I’ll watch Waterloo first and then that one for balance 🫣
Hahaha, I don't think I would be a good film critic, personally, but I did try to give "Napoleon" a fair shake. I'll likely re-watch "Waterloo" again soon since it has been a while.